66 | Sammy Rodriguez – Leading in a Complex Culture

Summary

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GrowLeader Podcast Episode 66 Summary

Guest: Pastor Sam (Sammy) Rodriguez
Host: Pastor Chris Hodges
Date: November 18, 2024
Theme: Leading in a Complex Culture

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Overview

This episode features Pastor Sam Rodriguez, a prominent faith leader, author, and social influencer, in conversation with Pastor Chris Hodges. The discussion centers on how Christian leaders can thrive and lead effectively amid today’s complex, polarized, and often hostile cultural climate—particularly during challenging social and political times. Rodriguez shares his experiences with multiethnic ministry, policy influence, and cross-generational communication, offering wisdom for church leaders navigating a confusing and divisive landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sam Rodriguez’s Background and Calling

• Roots and Upbringing:
  • Rodriguez describes being raised in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania by blue-collar parents.
    • “My dad was a Mack truck worker. I grew up with a Calvinistic work ethic in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.” (02:48)
  • He admits he was initially skeptical about faith but had a transformative prophetic experience at age 12 that set him on his path.
    • “A guy comes into my church… stops a song midstream and says, the Lord says, there's a Sammy in this place… everything I'm doing now… was laid out to me via the conduit of a gift that is viable and biblically substantiated.” (03:40–04:40)

2. Ministry in a Multiethnic, Multigenerational Context

• Church Demographics:
  • Rodriguez pastors a multiethnic church in California that closely mirrors the diversity of heaven:
    • “It's about 40% Caucasian, 40% African American, and 20% Latino, Native American, Asians. It looks like heaven.” (05:36)
• Interdenominational and National Leadership:
  • He leads the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, serving over 45,000 churches and focusing on holistic health for leaders, public policy advocacy, and kingdom collaboration. (06:16)

3. Engaging Culture without Losing Integrity

• Navigating a 'Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs' World:
  • Rodriguez and Hodges acknowledge today’s climate as “crazy”—marked by moral relativism, spiritual apathy, and common sense being sidelined. (09:04, 09:10)
  • Quote:
    • “Logic, reason, and common sense have been sacrificed on the altar of political and cultural expediency.” (09:10)
• The Danger of Silence:
  • Referencing Elijah, Rodriguez warns:
    • “One of the saddest verses: And the people of God said nothing... Today's complacency is tomorrow's captivity.” (09:57)

4. Prophetic Advocacy vs. Political Activism

• Biblical Rubric for Engagement:
  • Citing Psalm 89:14—“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne. Truth and love lead the way…”—Rodriguez urges:
    • “Don’t be political, be prophetic. Do not engage in political activism. Engage in prophetic advocacy.” (10:08)
• Issue Engagement:
  • At Rodriguez’s church, they champion the "Lamb’s agenda" instead of partisan politics, communicating through a biblical worldview instead of political lenses. (10:33)
  • Quote:
    • “We exclusively advance the agenda of the lamb. We call it the Lamb's agenda.” (10:49)
  • “If all we do is speak truth without love, we're nothing more than mathematicians. If all we do is speak love and not truth, we're California hippies. The moment we speak truth, in love, with love, and for love, we literally change the world.” (11:01)

5. Countercultural and Redemptive Influence

• Being a Countercultural Narrative:
  • “Any church ministry, pastor, family, that's not a countercultural narrative… means you're acquiescing to the culture. You begin by being an alternative, countercultural. But then you engage the culture and then you reform the culture.” (12:03)
• Influencing Public Policy:
  • Rodriguez is actively involved in advising policymakers. Examples include:
    • President Obama’s abortion reduction task force: “I was part of President Barack Obama's abortion reduction task force… It lasted for a millennial minute.” (14:29)
    • Advocating to President Trump’s administration: “First Steps act… I go like, dude, you have to redeem the whole justice narrative… that's where the First Steps act came out.” (16:05)
• Influence Built on Integrity:
  • “Your integrity has to be more important than your influence.” (16:38)
  • “My enemy are spiritual forces, powers of darkness… Not human beings. We don't tolerate those that disagree with us… we love them. We're not the world.” (15:12)

6. Pastoral Communication and Handling Criticism

• Balancing Conviction and Compassion:
  • Rodriguez candidly shares the struggle of maintaining a loving tone when addressing emotionally charged issues:
    • “My number one enemy is Sam. My emotional inclination to be very vociferous and to become very John the Baptist… especially around topics around children… Sometimes I want to lose it on stage… I have to do it in a way… all hands on deck. Let's be vigilant.” (17:48–19:02)
• Practical Wisdom from Chris Hodges on Communication:
  • “I'm always balancing the fact that I was once told you could never win an enemy to Christ… I have to know what I believe about gender and sexuality and about life… They come to a point where they're not moral to me. They are my faith.” (19:21)

7. Engaging Younger Generations and Building Worldview

• Reaching Millennials and Gen Z:
  • Encourage political independence while centering on biblical values:
    • “These guys don't register as Republicans or Democrats. They go independent. But they are pro life, pro religious liberty, biblical justice, parental rights, limited government, independent Christian voters. That's the rubric right there.” (21:09)
• Content for a Social Media Age:
  • Communicate using "heart, head, and hand”—combining inspiration, information, and practical application.
    • “Everything we convey should meet the following targets: Speak to the heart, the head and the hand… inspiration, information, and practical implementation.” (21:35)
  • Quote:
    • “If you don't make them smarter by the end of that sermon, that teaching, whatever it may be, we missed it. If all we do is trigger emotionalism… we missed it.” (22:02)
• Model Example—Abortion Discussion:
  • Rodriguez demonstrates speaking to all three dimensions:
    • Head: Share scientific/medical facts (citing top universities, not just Christian sources)
    • Heart: Affirm Jesus’s message of life and abundant life
    • Hand: Call to empathy, practical action, and advocating for adoption and support for women
    • “We become advocates for life with great empathy… Heart, head in hand, practical. We have a little bit of comedy. Make them laugh… They'll get it.” (23:21–25:02)

8. The Power and Imperative of Holy Spirit-Driven Leadership

• About Rodriguez’s New Book:
  • “Fresh Oil, Holy Fire, New Wine” explores how David received three distinct anointings; lessons for leaders on identity, integrity, and influence through the Holy Spirit.
    • “Integrity is everything, my friend. We teach our church that when your integrity is greater than your influence, nothing can stop you.” (25:24–26:28)
• Spirit-Empowered Leadership:
  • “The most powerful spirit on the planet is the same identical spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is still boss… And he has the final word and so be filled. Ephesians 5:18.” (26:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Today's complacency is tomorrow's captivity.”

  • Pastor Sam Rodriguez (09:57)

• “If all we do is speak truth without love, we're nothing more than mathematicians. If all we do is speak love and not truth, we're California hippies. The moment we speak truth, in love, with love, for love, we literally change the world.”

  • Pastor Sam Rodriguez (11:01)

• “Never sacrifice truth on the altar of political expediency under any circumstance.”

  • Pastor Sam Rodriguez (13:15)

• “Your integrity has to be more important than your influence.”

  • Pastor Sam Rodriguez (16:38, 26:28)

• “If you don't make them smarter by the end of that sermon… we missed it.”

  • Pastor Sam Rodriguez (22:02)

• On leadership influence:

  • “You have to be an alternative, countercultural. Then you engage the culture and then you reform the culture. And that's the evolution of engagement.” (12:03)

• On generational communication:

  • “Everything should speak to the heart, the head and the hand.” (21:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|-------------| | Introduction and Sam’s Background | 01:47–05:34 | | Ministering in a Multiethnic Context | 05:36–06:16 | | National Hispanic Christian Leadership | 06:16–07:10 | | Film Projects and Broader Influence | 07:19–08:26 | | Cultural Challenges for Leaders | 09:04–10:02 | | Prophetic Advocacy vs. Politics | 10:08–11:01 | | Engaging Policy, Being Countercultural | 12:01–14:06 | | Influence, Integrity, Public Policy Tales | 14:06–16:38 | | Handling Criticism & Communication | 17:17–20:05 | | Generational Gaps, Building Worldview | 21:13–22:02 | | Heart, Head, Hand Communication Model | 21:35–25:02 | | Holy Spirit & New Book Discussion | 25:08–27:25 |

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Conclusion

Pastor Sam Rodriguez provides church leaders with a roadmap for navigating cultural complexity: stay rooted in biblical truth, love fiercely, be prophetic rather than political, and never let influence outpace integrity. Using humor, real-world examples, and practical frameworks, Rodriguez demonstrates how leaders can communicate clearly across generations and cultures, advocating for the “Lamb’s agenda” and Spirit-empowered change—even in the most confusing times.

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For links to Pastor Sam’s new book and his message at Church of the Highlands, see the podcast show notes.

Transcript

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

We do it all in a way that's full of righteousness and justice, truth and love. If all we do is speak truth, without love, we're nothing more than mathematicians. If all we do is speak love and not truth, we're California hippies. The moment we speak truth, in love, with love, and for love, we literally change the world.

[Podcast Host (possibly an announcer or intro voice)]

Well, hi, everybody, and welcome to the Grow Leader Podcast, where we grow leaders that grow churches by helping them reach their full potential. We're so glad you're in the room today.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

If you're new to us, my name's Matt.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Thank you.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

So glad to have you with us. Sitting right beside my pastor, Pastor Chris Hodges.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

How's it going?

[Podcast Host (possibly an announcer or intro voice)]

It's the best.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Somebody just told me you had a have a look alike. Our guest says you look like somebody. Should we tell that to the whole audience?

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

I heard Buzz Lightyear. And so of all the animated options out there, I'll take that one. It could be. They could have said Shrek, you know.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Worst things they could have said.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

Excited about our guest today, and I don't even know where to start in introducing him because there's a. There's a million ways to introduce him. I know you want to introduce him as a friend.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

I do. He's here because I wanted him to see our college. I've been talking with him quite a bit about perhaps becoming even an advocate and resident in, resident professor because he's such a genius. He's connected with so many other universities. But I know him best just really as one of the greatest prophetic voices of our generation. And I mean that with all my heart. And he has such influence, especially into the Hispanic world, that I want us to talk about. He has had great influence into White Houses from Bush, Obama to Trump and on. So he's a voice that even great leaders listen to. I think he has a lot to share with us today. Welcome, my friend, Pastor Sam Rodriguez. So glad you're here, my friend.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

I am super honored to be with you. Seriously. All joking aside, my wife. Hey, where are you going this week? I'm going to be with Pastor Chris Hodges. She went, you're always, like, referencing him. Well, honey, without knowing it, he changed the entire vocabulary of what we do at church. Right. So in addition to that, I told my wife, I'm convinced Chris Hodges is an angel in human flesh. Who is this brilliant strategist? He's Mr. Wineskin extraordinaire. I am so psyched to be with you, Seriously. And next to Stephen Colbert in one.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Fuck as the other look alike.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Like, who does that? Right. Honored man, thank you for having me.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

I really mean it, though. I have such great respect for you and thank you for the very kind words. But I have such great respect for the influence that God's given you. But I want the audience to know you. Like, I know you just kind of tell your story a little bit like those who have never heard of you. And I can't imagine that there is anyone, but would you just kind of give them the story of how, you know, God brought you up through life and ministry and where you are today?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

I'm a kid from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. My parents were beautiful blue collar workers. My dad was a Mack truck worker. I grew up with a Calvinistic work ethic in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. That's why I have a messianic complex, Bethlehem. So I grew up in Bethlehem, but my parents were not preachers. My mom gave me a choice, go to church or die. So I made the right choice.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

That was kind of like mine too, right?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Like, I was obligated, but I grew up in a spirit empowered evangelical church, Latino church, and I did not believe in. I mean, I was an evangelical agnostic and I denied it. I mean, obligated, that sort of thing. And Until I was 12 years old, I'm a math guy, so I'm a faith and science guy. I preach like Kirk but think like Spock. So I'm very linear, sequential. I still think calculus is God's language. So if you failed algebra, you probably should repent.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

But there's a whole lot of repentance going on right now.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

I'm repenting right now.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

It did not go well. I don't create a dichotomy between faith and science. It's part of the same continuum of God's wisdom. Without a doubt. There is no dichotomy. There is no wall of separation. So with that in context, this guy comes into my church one time and never met me in the 80s, and Bernie Gillo is his name. So I give you integrity, I give you everything. Teen Challenge choir director from Readersburg, David Wilkerson's ministry. Anyone who would know that back in the day, first time in our church stops a song midstream and says, the Lord says, there's a Sammy in this place. Now there's a fine line between the prophetic and the pathetic. Right?

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Right.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

You get something wrong, you're going to make an atheist out of the agnostic. Right. There's a Sammy. I was 12 years old. The only Sammy was. Yours truly didn't say Jose Or Maria, by the way, you ever want to go to a Latino church and prophesy and not miss? There's a word for Jose or Maria. Juan. All right, will you miss? Or Juan, will you miss? No. Even if it's not God, you may get judged by God, but you won't miss that moment. So it was Sammy. I'm the only Sammy. And the church, so beautiful, I mean, they didn't really care about trauma and being triggered and all that. So they said Hayes talmochacho, which means ayes tal muchacho. So I walked up and everything I'm doing now, not generic blessing like God's gonna use you. What I'm doing now was laid out to me via the conduit of a gift that is viable and biblically substantiated. Not that everyone needs it. I did. Cause I was a Thomas. I required like, you know, I was in need of that. Not everyone does. People have more faith than I. And that started everything. And here we are to talk about it years later. And I pursued that path with a commitment of just pursuing righteousness. Not perfectly, but, but pursuing righteousness and watching God show up. And I have an assignment which is simple. Fill the earth with the glory of Jesus. I live for no other purpose but to fill the earth with the glory of Christ.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

And so you're pastoring now?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

I pastor a beautifully God ordained multi ethnic church in California. It's primarily millennial, 68% and Generation Z. And it looks like heaven. It's about 40% Caucasian, which is code word for white by the way, just for your audience. They no longer have to Google Caucas. And 40% African American, which means black, and 20% Latino, Native American, Asians. It looks like heaven. It really does. So I pastored that church in California and LA and in Sacramento. And it's growing and God is continuing to bless it.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

And so how did your influence into the greater Hispanic culture and world? I mean, you're the leader of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. What is that and what do you do?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Yeah, remember that word when I was 12 years old, part of that word at the end, at the tail end was, you're going to be praying for presidents of the United States who tells a 12 year old kid that? Right? And God ordained it. Created a facilitative platform through networking and influence where we networked denominations. We became the Hispanic Evangelical association and a lot of Hispanic churches across the board, different denominations, independent networks. We were able to bring them together to serve and to unify and to provide leadership to over 45,000 churches. And we do it through the center of Ministerial Health where we focus on physical, spiritual, mental, emotional and financial health.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Of the leaders themselves, of the leaders.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

All Latino Christian leaders. We do it through the center of Public Policy which we advocate for life, religious liberty and biblical justice. And we do it through the center for Kingdom Collaboration. So we collaborate with like minded institutions to advance what we call the Lamb's agenda.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

So if you google you, it doesn't say either one of those. It says author and movie producer.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Movie producer first. Which is interesting.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Yeah, talk about that.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Google. Don't believe everything you read.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Well, I don't, but I thought it was very interesting when I did.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

No. So we produce movies. God again. Another God assignment way beyond Sam Rodriguez. It's a First Corinthians 15:10, Paul Declaration. By the grace of God, I am what I am. Truly, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And we produce movies in Hollywood. My first one was Breakthrough about a kid who died for an hour and eight minutes. You may have seen it, John Smith, the only verifiable American verifiable resurrection story where the medical community signed off on.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Right.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

So he died for an hour and eight minutes. And woman comes in and says, holy Spirit, bring my son back to life. And boom, the kid who was completely dead for an hour and eight minutes, brain dead, heart dead, comes back to life. And we made a movie about it with Sony and 20th Century Fox in 2016. And my recent one is called Flaming Hot, which is currently streaming on Disney.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

And Hulu, which we talked about before we started today. My kids were huge fans and had to connect those dots. I love that there are all these spheres of influence. I mean politically, the advice you've given to presidents, which I want to get into that there's not a lot of people we can have on that talk about that.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Exactly. And not only that, when I think about you, I think you're one of the clearest voices of righteousness evangelicals in this crazy world that we live in. And one of the number one questions I'm getting asked by pastors right now is how do I navigate, especially in these election years, just this season, what should we be saying? There's just a lot of people aren't very confident right now, Sammy. They're just not. It's, it's, it's scary. For a lot of pastors it is. You're talking to a lot of pastors that are listening right now. Just like minister to them, talk to them, talk about the culture just bring some clarity to a lot of confusion right now.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

So we, we can't deny the fact that we're living in officially what can be deemed as a cuckoo for cocoa puff season. It's crazy.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

It's crazy.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

It really is. And every time you think it can't get crazier, turn on the news, it gets crazier. It's a season full of moral relativism, cultural decadence, spiritual apathy, ecclesiastical lukewarmness, where logic, reason and common sense have been sacrificed on the altar of political and cultural expediency. It is that season, logic and reason are dying. Common sense is an anomaly, Right? It really is. And we've replaced conversations with perpetual confrontations. Right? So what do we do as a church? Do we. Are we silent? We can't be. I'm going to tell you why we can't be. That that Elijah moment on Mount Carmel, he asked the question, whose God will you serve? Will it be BAAL or the God of our fathers? One of the saddest verses. What does it say? And the people of God said nothing. It's not that they sided with BAAL and Ahab and Jezebel. They said nothing. Today's complacency is tomorrow's captivity.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Wow. So what do they do? So coach, you know, trained some leaders here today in this area.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

You engaged a rubric laid out in Psalm 89:14. It's a beautiful, prophetic, biblically, substantiated spirit inspired rubric. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne. Truth and love lead the way, its attendants. Be a church of righteousness and justice, truth and love. Don't be political, be prophetic. Do not engage in political activism. Engage in prophetic advocacy.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Give me an example of that. Explain that a little bit deeper.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

So in California, our church, in full disclosure, our church, again, I referenced the cultural context. Right. So our church, we have a value system that we espouse. We never ever advance the agenda of the donkey or the elephant. We exclusively advance the agenda of the lamb. We call it the Lamb's agenda.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

That's awesome.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

And in our church, we even refuse to use the term multicultural. That's just us now. I'm not judging anyone who does. We talk about a multi ethnic kingdom culture, expression. The only culture we're gonna elevate is a culture of the kingdom.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

There you go.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

From a multi ethnic tapestry. That's beautiful. A mosaic of diversity that amplifies the beauty of God's creative design. But we talk about issues from a biblical worldview. Not from a political worldview, be it life, religious liberty, biblical justice, be it human sexuality, the beautiful design of God for the family, with mom and dad at home raising children to fulfill their God ordained purposes. We do it all in a way that's full of righteousness and justice, truth and love. If all we do is speak truth without love, we're nothing more than mathematicians. If all we do is speak love and not truth, we're California hippies. The moment we speak truth, in love, with love and for love, we literally change the world. With that being said, we have to be engaged in culture, cultural. Charles Colson was my mentor and I was with him at the Wilberforce weekend when everything happened. When he had his initial stroke, literally seated right here on the right hand side and he would say, sammy, you first have to be a countercultural narrative.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Subsequently, say that again.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Now you have to be a countercultural narrative. Any church ministry, pastor, family, that's not a countercultural narrative. That means you're acquiescing to the culture. And so you begin by being an alternative countercultural. But then you engage the culture and then you reform the culture. And that's the evolution of engagement. You have to rise up and say, no, what you're doing is not in alignment with God's design and purpose. And I say that with love and great due deference. But by the way, here's what the alternative is. Here's actually what truth looks like. Two plus two is four. But the beauty of four. I'm not going to tell you that you're terrible and horrific because you believe two plus two is three. I'm just going to show you the beauty of embracing two plus two being four. So it's truth in love with love, for love and replacing confrontation with conversations. And don't be disparaging, don't be condescending. Speak life into, speak up just for context.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

I mean, you're the capital city of California. All of us not in California, go, man, that must be tough. In the capital city of California, you're actually impacting legislation. So you're, you're actually helping policy and building policy and still maintaining respect from the people on the other side of the aisle. And that is the goal. While never having to give up any of your morals.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Never sacrifice truth on the altar of political expediency under any circumstance. Never ever, ever sacrifice truth.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Yeah. I wrote a book years ago about the life of Daniel and I thought, I thought the litmus test for how well you actually do that is, is that you are able to stand for your truth. Unwavering. But I have influence at the same time. And I think that's what he did so beautifully. He didn't sacrifice. He never bowed to the idols. But then at the same time, he was being asked for advice and interpreting dreams. And so he had influence. I think whenever we find ourselves in a situation where our truth is so offensive that people don't even want to hear our advice on things. So talk about that. Talk about the people that are asking, even in your church, when they're saying, how do I advocate what are some of the issues we can get at involved in it and tell us maybe a story or two of some of the success stories of the policies that actually are beginning to change.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

So it's not what you say, it's how you say it. It's not just what you say. It's not just content. The wine is beautiful, but if the wine skin is not in alignment of the wine, you're going to have great angst and consternation. Obama. President Obama brought me into advising for eight years. I was part of the Obama redu. I'm going to surprise your audience. I was part of President Barack Obama's abortion reduction task force.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Wow.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Google that, why don't you?

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

I didn't even know there was. There was a task.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

You got to go to Chad GPT. It lasted for a millennial minute. Literally, it lasted months. Because then the other entities outside came against it and threatened him. But I was there. I think there was 10 of us in the task force. It was a large task force. And later on Supreme Court decision. Right. Overturning traditional marriage. Right. And I wrote a piece. I think it was on Fox News, but I wrote a piece with great due deference to the man who I just served. And one of the emails that I have from my grandkids is that I get an email from the White House going, pastor Sam, the way you vehemently disagreed with President Obama in such a loving way. There's no other word but beautiful and full of Christ. Well, and my eyes swelled up and I looked at my wife and said, I'm gonna print this and give it to our grandkids. Because you don't have to sacrifice truth, but we don't have to look at everyone as an enemy. My enemy are spiritual forces, powers of darkness. Ephesians 6, 12, 13. Not human beings. Right. So you respect people. And as Christians, we don't tolerate those that disagree with us. We can't. We love them. We're not the world. They're supposed to tolerate us, right? We love people we disagree with. I know it sounds very polyandish, very California hippie ish, but it works. It really does. And that's how you get it across. Speak truth in love, with love, for love, but speak truth. Don't be silent. Don't be silent.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

So what are some of the things that you're saying to your congregation right now in this season?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Again, we were very. God ordained it, his will. The Dobbs case. We were the only Hispanic organization referenced by the. By Alito and by any judge. But we were referenced as supporting the overturning of Roe v. Wade and what that meant Latino communities, the whole argument. Latinos, very, very pro life community. So we were proud to be or blessed to be part of that. When I was working with President Trump, I had dinner with Jared Kushner over First Steps act, and he looked at me and said, sammy, if you would flip something right now, what would it be? And I'd go like, dude, you have to redeem the whole justice narrative. There are primarily African Americans in California, my state, who were in prison because when they were 16, 17, they got caught three times with nickel bags, and they're in jail now for life for marijuana, which is now legal. Like, who does that? Like, this is wrong. And that's where the First Steps act came out. So I tell my church, be that. Be a Lamb's agenda advocate. Wherever you're at. We finish every service. Pastor Chris, with the following phrase, let's do one thing together. Let's go change the world. But it requires intentionality. It requires your integrity to be more important than your influence. Your integrity has to be more important than your influence. It has to be.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

So can I ask a question to both of you? Because I imagine there's a pastor out there communicating, and we've seen this where one side was like, hey, you're not doing enough, and another side saying, hey, you're doing too much. As communicators of the gospel for both of you in very different places. Birmingham, Alabama, Sacramento, California.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Really, you think?

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

But it still happens.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Exactly.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

When you're preparing to bring the gospel, how are you navigating that as communicators? As you share the word.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Go ahead. No, you, please.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

In full disclosure, sometimes some of the issues are so emotionally driven that I have to fight myself. My number one enemy is Sam. My emotional inclination to be very vociferous and to become very John the Baptist. So there are occasions where I. Where I get close to losing it and losing it meaning advocating Articulating, expressing in. In a way that may put love on the side for a moment, especially around topics around children. For whatever reason, I have a sensitive spot.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

Righteous anger or you.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

It is righteous indignation. But sometimes that righteous donation may convert into just carnal being frustration, being ticked off. Yeah, there's another word. But we won't. For purpose of the podcast. Right. And so I have to really create a firewall. And it's not me, it's Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23. He'll take care of that. But Holy Spirit, please make sure every word that comes out of my mouth. So I struggle on occasion, especially about issues about kids. I was never touched, so God protected me. But what I see coming after kids right now, especially in California, is so horrific. And sometimes I want to lose it on stage and tell the church, for crying out loud. He's like. And I have to do it. In a way. It's. All right, guys, all hands on deck. Let's be vigilant. Let's advocate for the following.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Wow.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

What would you say in our context in Birmingham and how you're preparing? Because I know your heart. We have one on one conversations, but you're also very guarded with the mantle to communicate.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

I'm always balancing the fact that I was once told you could never win an enemy to Christ. So I'm not trying to make any. At the same time, I'm trying to stay so true to. I don't know if morals is the right word. It's just integrity of what I believe the scriptures say. So to me, none of it is political. It's purely, you know, I'm a representative, I'm an ambassador of someone who's written the truth. So you have to know the truth. Right? So I think it's very. You have to almost have positions in your mind, but not that the world's forcing you to have. You have to know what you believe about gender and sexuality and about life. And so these are. And they. And they come to a point where they're not moral to me. They are. They are my faith. Not my. Not my. My. Not my citizenship. Right.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

This won't work in Alabama because it doesn't need to. But in California, I encourage my church. You asked about the whole political lens and so forth, you know, combining or conflating with the prophetic and the biblical practical. I encourage all of our church to go independent. Not. You don't have to do this in Alabama. In California, I go, hey, y', all, your pastor is registered independent not that you have to. This is not a cult. I don't tell you what to do. I preach the word. Holy Spirit takes care of the rest. It's up to you and Holy Spirit and you be you boo. So, you know, but I'm gonna be an independent because that's in California, that works. Because historically you have a multi generational cultural, you know, propensity to affiliate yourself based on your parents and your grandparents of a political party. And that political party may be myopic or no longer affirming values that were there on one occasion. So I try to push my entire church and go, hey, you be and I'm blessed. I have a millennial church at a generation Z. These guys don't register as Republicans or Democrats. They go independent. But they are pro life, pro religious liberty, biblical justice, parental rights, limited government, independent Christian voters. That's the rubric right there.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

So one of the questions I have too, cause I get this all the time, is the frustration from the generational gaps of what we know as truth and how they just can't see it that way. I don't know. If they didn't grow up in church, they don't have a biblical worldview. Talk to us a little about getting the biblical worldview into the life of a 20 year old. You know what I'm saying?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

Yep. No, totally. So it requires. In the world of social media, right, it's all about content. It's all about content and it's all about minimal information nuggets. So it's no longer a massive dissemination. Very few people are reading Julius Caesar from Shakespeare, right? So they're going into these little minutiae, marginalized little nuggets of perceived information. We have a framework. Everything we do, everything we convey should meet the following targets. Speak to the heart, the head and the hand. Everything should speak to the heart, the head and the hand. If we have five minutes with them, seven, 12, 20 minutes. Heart, head in hand. Everything should be heart, which is inspiration, head, which is information, and hand which is. What is it? Impartation. Practical implementation. So increase the cognitive bandwidth of everyone who receives your content. If you don't make them smarter by the end of that sermon, that teaching, whatever it may be, we missed it. If all we do is trigger emotionalism and emotional exuberance. And I'm a pretty emotional preacher, I don't deny it. It's who I am. I'm caffeinated and I'm Puerto Rican, so I have no choice. And if you don't like it, that's just very, very limited of you. But it comes with a commitment to activate the brain, the cerebral cortex. And then you have to give them something that's practical. It's implementation. Speak to the heart, the head, and the hand. Do it in a way that affirms all three. Align them perfectly. They're gonna walk out going like, I got this. And I can't deny the Holy Spirit back there. He's everything. Sure, Holy Spirit takes care of that. We call it the anointing. In certain quarters, the spirit of God takes. I'll take what you're saying. It's from my word. You're doing it of integrity. Your life matches what you're saying. So I'm gonna multiply this exponentially in the ears of every single person who just received it. Samuel, that's his commitment. Amen.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

So take an issue and use the heart, head, and hand for us. Like model it right here in front of our audience.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

I'll take an issue that's politically relevant right now for this election. Right? Abortion, please. So abortion, we do it not from a political lens, from a prophetic lens. So we speak to the head. We talk about the beauty of science. Science. And we talk about latest technology and technology at a cellular level now. And we look at pain thresholds that we couldn't find 10, 15 years ago. So we look at that scientific component and we put them in the screen. Science. So I don't use Christian deference. I don't reference Christian scholars. And they're beautiful. I go Stanford. I go Mayo Clinic. I go Oxford, Yale, mit. And I reference the top schools on the planet with the latest information, research. Once they get it in their head, we go to their heart. What did Jesus come to do? He came to give us what? And the church yells, life. I go, what was that again? Life. Not just any life, but life abundantly. That Greek word completely is womb to tomb. Life. It's not just when we get to eternity. It's actually holistic from A to Z. And then we cross reference different references of life in the Hebrew, and we do Hebrew exegetical extrapolation and reference. So we do that. And then the practical is, now that you know that life is at the heart of the ethos of the culture that Christ came to disseminate, to distribute through the finished work of Christ, what do we do? We become advocates for life with great empathy. So we don't any woman who has ever engaged. We treat them with love and with mercy and compassion and understanding because we don't know their stories. So it's great empathy. We talk about adoption, viable solutions and so forth. Heart, head in hand, practical. We have a little bit of comedy. You always have to include some comedy. All joking aside, you have to put a little bit of. Just put some spice into that little comedy. Make them laugh a little bit, and they'll get it. They're gonna walk out going, like, you know, I never saw that that way before. Now that I know, I know.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

That's so good. And you mentioned also the help of the Holy Spirit, who's actually doing our work on the inside. So if that's everything, take the last three or four minutes here and talk about your book that you're. That's being released in a week or so now and talk to them about that. Because it's all about the Holy Spirit, right?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

It's all about the Holy Spirit.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

Talk about it.

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

It's about. Thank you for that. It's called Freshman Oil, Holy Fire and New Wine. And I talk about, prophetically, how David received three anointings and wasn't just one anointing, it was three. He was anointed privately, then he was anointed for Judah and then Israel. And we break that down. And God will anoint you privately before you go public. He'll anoint you to serve before he anoints you to lead. And he'll anoint you to wait. He waited for a while before he anoints you to win. And we break that down a bit. And what that looks like, that anointing, that private time of intimacy with God where he grants you identity, intimacy, integrity, influence and innovation and all of that. And then we go to Judah, he'll anoint you over a portion of it and then goes, can you handle it? Can you manage this with integrity? Back to integrity. Integrity is everything, my friend. We teach our church that when your integrity is greater than your influence, nothing can stop you. Because right now we're living in a culture of unbridled that searched the hunger for influence. But your integrity has always, always has to be greater than your influence. The moment you see your influence, seeing your integrity, you're doomed. Like, not vertically, but horizontally. Failure is coming. Guaranteed failure will hit you, because your integrity always has to lead the way. And then. Can I trust you with Judah? Yes. And then Jerusalem, right? So I wrote this book with fresh oil, Holy fire, new wine, basically an expose on the power of the Holy Spirit today, using David as an example and what that means for and I because the most powerful spirit on the planet, we can't drink The Kool Aid. It's not what people think. It's not like, you know, moral relativism or pornography or hedonism or lies or deconstruct whatever it may be. The most powerful spirit is still the Holy Spirit. The most powerful spirit on the planet is the same identical spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is still boss. He is still the boss. Isn't that great? And he has the final word and so be filled. Ephesians 5:18.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

So good.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

I. I gotta go back and re listen to the podcast that I'm on right now. I'm so excited about it. Fresh oil, holy fire, new wine. So excited about it. Make sure you, you go and get it wherever you buy books. And we'll link to it in the show notes of the show today. And we'll also link to the message that Pastor Sammy gave our church. I just want to say thank you so much for being here, taking time to do this. Love all the areas you're involved in. I love how you love my pastor and we're grateful to have you on the Grow Leader podcast. Would you come back? Can you commit to that?

[Pastor Sam Rodriguez]

I'm all in. Next time in Spanish. Okay. Come on.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

I've got some learning to do.

[Pastor Chris Hodges]

It'll be great.

[Matt (Co-host or interviewer)]

Hey guys, thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time on the Grow Leader podcast.

[Podcast Host (possibly an announcer or intro voice)]

Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening to this episode and also a big thank you to all of our partners that help make the Grow Leader podcast happen. For over 80 years, Wesleyan Investment foundation has helped churches with their borrowing and investing. Whether you're dreaming of new opportunities or seeking wise resource management, we think WIF can help you. You can learn more about [e-mail] growleader for over 30 years, One Hope has partnered with churches and ministries to impact the lives of children and youth with the message of the Gospel of Christ. Through collaboration with local communities worldwide, One Hope is reached over 2 billion young people in 112 countries. Discover how you could partner with [e-mail] if you're looking for ways to know your people better and also grow your church at the same time, you need to know about Studio C. Studio C combines strategy, technology and communications to maximize church member engagement. You can bridge the engagement gap and transform your church's impact with Studio C. And you can learn more about [e-mail] growleader.