← GrowLeader Podcast with Chris Hodges
GrowLeader Podcast with Chris Hodges
95 | Marriage, Ministry, and Building a Lasting Legacy - Q&A with Tammy Hodges | Chris Hodges
00:34:26
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- [00:01]
A
Hi everybody, and welcome to the Grow Leader podcast, where we grow leaders that grow churches by helping them reach their full potential. So glad to have you along with us today. My name's Matt. If you're new to us sitting alongside so many people today, maybe my favorite guest we've ever had on the Grow Leader podcast. We'll get that in a second. Grace Hijis sitting right beside me.
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B
It's so good to be here.
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C
Pastor Chris's daughter in law, back to back podcast.
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B
I know.
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C
Come on, girl.
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B
Well, I've sat through 90 of the episodes. I joined the team at episode five. This is my second one behind the desk, so it's really good.
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A
Episode 95, episode 100 coming up very soon.
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C
And last podcast was so successful, I was actually very skeptical whether it would be or not. But you guys called it, man. It got great reviews. And so Grace Hodges is back on the podcast.
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A
Great piece of it. Happy to be here. Your favorite guest ever on the Grow Leader podcast as well, sitting to your right. You want to introduce her?
- [00:52]
C
Yes. Who in just a couple of months is going to be. Will be married 40 years. The one and only, affectionately called Not Tammy. Ms. Tammy is on the Grow Leader podcast today. Hey, baby. It's good to have you on today.
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D
Thanks for having me.
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A
We're excited to have you here. And, and so last, last episode, we had a very authentic conversation with questions you did not know about before. We had. And so you, you said, hey, send me the questions. And I put in my email, if you want to kill the magic, you'll read them. And so you did not read them.
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C
I didn't.
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A
You didn't read the podcast.
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C
I have no idea what's coming our way.
- [01:26]
A
So really we, we had so much feedback on the last podcast. If you didn't get a chance to listen to that, go back. And it just on the life principles that we got out of a Q and A session with Pastor Chris as a leader. And so we thought, you know, let's do the same thing about marriage, especially marriage and ministry. And so Ms. Tammy, you had to be a part of that. We had to bring you on.
- [01:47]
C
And so, and before we get into the. To the principles, can I give a shameless plug? I mean, of course, for heaven's sakes, this is my podcast. Right. So. And that I have my principal's book coming out on April 14, and I would just love for everybody to grab a copy. This is very, very dear to me. It turned out, I think, a lot better than I was expecting. I actually Started it out to write some Christian principles. I was gonna start with 12. I was gonna be kind of my version of a 12 principles type book. And it grew to, like, 17 principles. And then next thing I knew, I had 25 principles. And when I got to 25, I thought, well, I might as well go to 31 principles and make one a day for a month. Short essays on my different life principles in three different categories on the things that are success or personal principles, second set relational principles, and the last one, what I call legacy principles. What you'll leave behind. Halfway through writing the book, I was summarizing a chapter with the final paragraph, and I did it in letter form. Tammy was with me. We were away. We'd gone out of town for me to do some writing. And when I wrote this letter, I wrote it, dear Grandkids. I know. And I felt it the second I just wrote dear Grandkids. And I started summarizing the chapter, but telling them from Papa why this is so important. And it became this endearing, not a deathbed kind of a letter, but one I would want read. Even after I was gone, I was writing it in that, and I knew I hit on something, but I ran downstairs to Tammy and I said, hey, read this chapter I just wrote and read this letter I wrote at the end. I'll come back in three minutes because it's short essays for these, all these principles. And I came back, and she's bawling on the couch, which, by the way, she has tissue in her hand right now. She always prepares to cry.
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A
I don't know what that's all about.
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D
Just remembering it is like, oh, all
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C
right, use your tissue. But. And then she goes, oh, Chris, this is awesome. So I went back and put a letter at the end of every chapter. And the book is called Legacy Letters. Timeless Principles I learned, lived, and leave behind. And then there's a bonus principle. I will tell you. After the 31st principle, there's a page that says, only read the next part if you want to hear about my faith. Only turn this page if you want to hear about my faith and I share a 30 second principle. And. And you have to get the book to read what it is, but it leads people to Jesus.
- [04:12]
A
We're excited about it. I know you're excited about it. And if you want more information about the book, we'll actually link that in the show notes for the episode today. Make sure you know where to get it.
- [04:20]
C
Be a great graduation gift. That's right. It's just a principal's book. I think it's gonna help a lot
- [04:24]
A
of people, so I'm actually gonna start there. I have a question about the book for Ms. Tammy. Okay. And so Ms. Tammy, bring that microphone just a little bit closer to you. Okay, so here's the question I have. You've heard all the principles from the book.
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C
She's read the whole book.
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A
What's your favorite principle? First of all, personally, and then how do you pray and hope that plays out with your kids and your grandkids over time?
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D
Well, there's one that you talk about forgiving and giving somebody a second chance.
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C
It's the second chance principle, it's called.
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D
And I mean, that's huge because none of us are perfect and we all need second chances. And of course, I like to think that my grandchildren are perfect. My kids were almost perfect. But guess what? They needed second chances. And I know my grandkids are gonna need them, too. And so.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, well, I wanna dig into. Because, you know, we know your family story and the heritage you come from with your mom and dad, but I even think, me knowing you, that a little bit of that lo chances comes from even your.
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C
Your story.
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A
I mean, your story of your family. Can you. I mean, bring everybody in on. You've grown up around ministry and watched God work in your family. And I know that even that was a part of the two of you getting together. Even just started relationship. Y' all walk us both, walk us through that story and why that principle even matters so much for you, even as a child.
- [05:56]
D
Well, my parents were very young when they got married and I was on the way when they got married. And so. So, yeah, they started out needing a second chance. And can I tell you, isn't God so amazing? He just used two little teenagers having a baby, you know, and here I am today. It's like, lord, you knew who I was, who I was going to be, and you still picked me to get to be alongside this man and do this incredible thing for the Lord and for this church and for the body of Christ. And it's just been so exciting and, you know, I couldn't have dreamed this beautiful life.
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A
PC we know the story. Church of Highland also. She is awesome.
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B
No, she also said she was like, nobody's perfect. I was like, weird, because we all think that you are Ms. Tammy. Like, yeah, says. Says our. I'm like, okay, maybe have one thing
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C
you're trying with an angel. It's not as easy as you think.
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A
I'm like, so we know the story of Highlands and you, you've told the story of Highlands. Tell us the story of Chris and Tammy. Hi. Just like how. Let's. Let's help the people that are listening to us every month.
- [07:04]
C
Yeah. I'm four years older than Tammy. Okay. And so. And when I became a Young Youth Pastor, One, of course, things you did back in the 80s is that you took a lot of missions trips. Summers were camps and missions trips, camps and mission trips. And I would have to lead all these. So I was going overseas several times. Her dad and her family had just moved to Germany to be missionaries. And so very connected to my home church, Bethany. And so I. I just fell in love with him as a missionary leader, and he kind of, you know, fell in love with me. And. And he had three girls. And so he always says all my boys were girls. And so when he finally got, like, a son, a spiritual son in his life, we really got very close. And he was. They had come home from a break to, to itinerate and to raise money before they'd go back on the mission field to. To Baton Rouge. And he called me and said, hey, let's go get a po boy, a shrimp po boy. I want to take you to lunch. Sat across the table and said, hey, have you ever thought about my daughter Tammy? And I said, no, sir. I mean, I really haven't. He goes, I'd like you to take her out. I like anything for you. I'm happy to do that. And I always jokingly say, that's the day Billy proposed to me, because I took her out and I immediately admired her and loved her and loved the ministry that was on the inside of her. She was extremely shy, and so she really wouldn't talk to me on our first dates. In fact, we were back home, like sometimes 7:30, 8 o', clock, you know, because after we'd eat, she just wouldn't really talk much.
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D
And so my dad literally told me, tammy, relax a little. Talk to the guy.
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C
And so. And eventually, you know, we'd hang out the house she didn't have, going to bed. Billy and I would stay up all night talking about how we were going to change the world. And so, long story short is they ended up all going back to Germany. And he said to me, if you decide you can't live without her, you give me a call. And he planted this seed of. He's basically saying, I know she's for you. Whenever you figure that out, you let me know. And so. And I'm telling you, they left. And it was as if the most important portion of my life had left me. And we started getting very close through mail. And that's back when you used to mail it. And it took three weeks to get the letter back. There wasn't any texting and email like we have today. You know, we were, I was, I was perfume scented letters. And she was so expressive and open about her appreciation and admiration of me and me to her. And we kind of fell in love corresponding overseas. Wow. And I'll never forget one day I was sitting at a red light and I thought I was going through all the girls I dated and thought how none of you know they were fun to date but not the right ones to marry. Like if you're going to build a life, I couldn't build a life with them. And I said, and I said at the red light, I said it out loud, I'm going to marry Tammy Hornsby. And so the next morning I got up at 4 o' clock in the morning because there was an eight hour time change difference and called Billy and said, I said, I think, I don't think I can live without her. He said, well, get a ring and fly over here and tell her yourself. Wow. And I bought a ring, flew over, thank God she said yes, that's a long way to go to hear a no. And I got on my knee and handed her that ring. And so, yeah. And the rest is history. And in May of this year, We've been married 40 years.
- [10:32]
A
It's incredible. Well, I think about even. I got an email after the last episode from a pastor in Texas, small church. And he made the comment, hey, thanks for doing this for us. We're a smaller church, we're trying to figure it out. And I thought, that's Billy Hornsby showing up.
- [10:48]
C
He planted churches all over Europe and taught evangelism. And then he was a country western singer. So he wrote Christian songs, country music, and Tammy would sing and the family went around singing and they taught evangelism. And of course he came back to Bethany and started the cell church movement in the early 90s. And then in the early 2000s, it was he, Greg and just a couple of us that got together and dreamed this thing called the association of Related Churches. And so really our true founders of arc are Greg Surratt and Billy Hornsby. Rick and I were kind of the guinea pigs. We were the ones, hey, you go. We have this idea, you guys, we'll fund you guys trying it. And by the grace of God, just this year, more than 1200 churches have been planted all across America.
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B
Incredible.
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A
So cool.
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B
I would love to hear more, though, about. Because you mentioned Mr. Billy. And really Grow Leader came out of a dream of his when he was passing away, saying, don't forget about the little guy. Tell us about that story and why Grow Leader is. It is also Billy. And I just want to hear more about your dad. Because I told Johnny, I'm like, I never got the pleasure of meeting him, but I think the first person I fine in heaven.
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C
Yeah, he's amazing. Don't do that. He's amazing.
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B
Well, it just. It's legacy.
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C
Yeah. He's truly. He was truly my best friend in the world. To fill in the blanks for everybody. I mean. I mean, he and I talked on the phone from the day I met him to the day he died. We talked on the phone every single day. Not a day passed. He was truly my best friend in the. In the whole world. And at age 60, he got a little melanoma tumor on the bottom of his foot. Four doctors told him it was nothing. It looked like he stepped on a thorn. It was just like a little sore. And the fifth doctor decided to biopsy it. It was melanoma. And about a year and a half later, he was with the Lord. But when he was passing away, which was honestly one of the greatest experiences of my life, because the man decided, I'm going to show everybody else how to die. Well, wow. And he. It was just unbelievable as people would come to the house, hundreds of people. We had to set up a whole transportation department to pick up people from the airport just for 10 minutes with Bill, his house, he would come and they came to pray for him, and he ended up praying for them. It was a transforming experience. But right before he passed away, he left instructions to those of us who had started the ark, and especially with me as his. He called the firstborn of many brethren, is what he called me. Cause I was his first son. And he said that grace. He said two things. He says, don't let anything separate you guys. The devil will do everything he can to bring disunity. And by the way, some pastor needs. Because the devil will do anything he can to break fellowship and unity among brothers. Psalm 133. How pleasant, how beautiful it is in your marriage. I mean, Tammy and I are incredibly unified, and we work very hard. Some people are thinking, well, it's easy if I was married to somebody as sweet as her. But the truth is, we work very, very hard to keep our unity together. Because that's where God bestows his blessings both now and forevermore, the psalm says, and it's true. That's where the anointing flows. He says, stay together. And the second is he goes, fight for the little guy, fight for the churches that no one's paying attention to. And you're right, that's where the vision of Grow Leader was. It wasn't for churches. It was for churches who were trying to break growth barriers. It was for the church of 150. And that's when we started actually scholarshiping pastors to come to the Grow Conference. If they didn't have the car rental money or the hotel money or the flight money, we were hundreds of thousands of dollars. Every conference we were giving away to sponsor churches, because the ones who actually needed it the were the ones who could afford it the least. And by the way, Church of the Highlands, thanks to Pastor Mark Pettis, now continues to make that investment into those pastors even to this day.
- [14:42]
A
That's one of my favorite things about. About conference. When we have conference, even when we have regionals in one days, there are people in that room that, because of where they are right now in ministry, they weren't able to get there on their own. And so that, because of the generosity of a lot of the pastors are even listening right now that are a part of all this, and Church of the Highlands are able to get there. It's one of my favorite things that we do. All right, so I want to talk about for the people out there that are young families. Here we go. Kids ministry. Take me back to Highlands first. Launching. You guys are launching Church of the Highlands. You guys have a bunch of kids. I'm sure you counted all those kids as part of church attendance, too, because they.
- [15:18]
C
Do you want me to say the joke?
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B
No, you can say the joke if you need to.
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C
She told me before the podcast started, everybody listening that how uncomfortable it is whenever I say I don't have five kids because I like kids. I have five kids because I like my wife. She goes, that's funny to everybody else who's not in your family, by the way.
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B
It is. And I'm like, grateful y' all have a healthy marriage. And, like, I love that. But I mean, I'm like, la, la,
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A
la, la, la, la, la, la. So I think with ministry, being married
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B
to one of the four.
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A
That's right. With ministry specifically, but also with leadership in general, I think sometimes we can put pressure on our spouse to carry something that's not their anointing or gifting to Carry. But at the same time. But watching the two of you over
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C
the years, she was real nervous about that at the beginning, in fact. I mean, you thought becoming senior pastors, that there was gonna be a completely different responsibility. Well.
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D
Cause, you know, the expectation is, you know, the pastor's wife plays the piano and leads the women's ministry and, you know, teaches all the Sunday school classes. And, you know, I just, hey, I am who I am. And I just wasn't cut out for the stage or anything like that. And I had so much fulfillment and joy in just taking care of my house, taking care of my kids, making sure my husband had clean clothes to wear and a shirt pressed. And, you know, something I appreciated so much about you is that you let me be me. And I think that brought so much peace and unity in our home.
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C
And at the same time, truly believe that if a female spouse has the call of God in their life to preach, by all means, absolutely. This isn't a philosophy for everyone. It's one for her that's. She really felt called. She goes, my calling is the home. I said, well, fine. I will never put pressure on you to perform. The only thing I asked her to do every year was stand on the stage at Mother's Day and just pray for the moms. And so that was the one service out of the 52. Every year. She would sit, and I told the congregation, I said, this is, like, Haley's comment. You have to be there to see it.
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B
It's Tammy's comment.
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C
And I'm gonna tell you, man, that became a tradition that they deeply, deeply loved. And so much respect and admiration for Ms. Tammy.
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D
Well, and I wanted to say something about that. You know, I think even when I'm asked to do something that's hard for me, I think, you know, what if I just go ahead and step out in obedience, God's gonna meet me there and give me the grace that I need to do it. Like, I'm doing this today. It's just like, God's just gonna help me. So I'll say yes and obey it.
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C
Yes. You do not want to do this today.
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D
This is hard for me.
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B
Well, can I just say, too, that you, because of your security and the security that you never put pressure on her, anyone else, you give that to us because we could not be more opposite in personality. And I've never, ever felt, oh, I need to be like Ms. Team. Because you're like, I want you to be yourself. I want you to be yourself. And your security is a gift to other people because you just want us to be who God created us to be. And it's just the most freeing gift because, you know, I think people could misinterpret it as a statement of what you think women should do in ministry because you do want to be more reserved, but it's like, no, you're being who God called you to be and you want other people to be who God. And it let him be all that God has called him to be. So if you are.
- [18:43]
C
And by the way, that included not putting pressure on my kids to be in ministry. I told all of my children, I said, you do not have to follow me in my footsteps. You pick what you feel called to do. If it's business or whatever, we'll be your biggest cheerleaders. Do not have any pressure that you have to succeed me or do what I do. And all of my kids, kids is so interesting. All of my kids chose a pathway outside of ministry and God called every one of them back on his own. In fact, I'll never forget Michael was getting his, his MBA at Alabama. Go Tigers. And he was giving, getting.
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A
It's an inside joke, everybody. It's about college preference. It doesn't matter.
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C
Absolutely does matter. Preference, preference. He was getting his MBA at the University of Alabama, going to do a business. I brought him on a missions trip with me to Ireland. We're standing there with the missionary. And the missionary said, so, young man, what do you want to do with your life one day? He goes, I'm going to be in ministry. And that was the first time I'd ever heard it. And I was trying to act like I wasn't shocked and surprised and jumping up and down. So real calmly I'm jumping up and down going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just sat there. But it's very important, I think, I think we put too much pressure on our kids too, not just our spouses.
- [19:52]
A
That's great. Well, the trickle down effect of that. I want to talk about the practical value for pastors to take from this is every one of our campus pastors, our wives have the freedom to do what God's put inside of them because of what Ms. Tammy's done. She set that example. Heather doesn't mind getting to my wife doesn't mind getting on a stage and speaking. But there are other CP wives that their expression in ministry is going to look different. But everybody's called to the same thing. There's an equal calling all along the way. So I want you to speak Ms. Tammy I'll start with you. Speak to the leaders or builders. All of us want to build something great. Just off the top of your head, what are some things we can do as people? Trying to build something great and also keep our families together and unified all along the way while we do that.
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D
Pray, pray, pray. Yeah, that's the first thing that pops in my head.
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C
But you never really let the kids ever get away from you. I think you did a better job than I did. I mean, you were in their room every night. I mean, wouldn't you say? Oh yeah, that was one of the, I think as I watched her, you know, we were both conscious of it and I have to confess my sins, I was conscious of it and sometimes chose not to do it. Letting the busyness take the first chair in that. But we have a belief, and I think we're right, is that you're going to have ups and downs. But we never let them get very far from us relationally. We had very, very open conversation and she, I mean, I think you did it the best.
- [21:24]
D
Well, something that I learned from my dad and I say it a lot, he always said quantity time equals quality time. You know, I know a lot of people try to put emphasis on quality and of course, but quantity, I think
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A
every day, every hour is equal. We can be over efficiency minded with time with our kids.
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C
We're trying to make up for your absence by hey, let's go to Disney World. You know, so you're, you're going to, and that's not a replacement. The best thing you can give your children is, you know, every morning we pray together every day. I told them, go be a leader, not a follower. Change the world, don't let the world change you. Every night she was up there in their rooms and I had to put up with it honestly because I wanted, I wanted her with me. But about 7:30 she disappeared for a couple hours and she was making her rounds to those five bedrooms, you know, those five children, giving them that special time, praying with them, listening to them. And we did, I did that to some degree. We had this thing called pillow talk where our kids knew they could, they could go past their curfew if they needed to have discussions on mom and dad's bed. And so, and, and, and that, and I think sometimes they did it just to stay up a little bit later.
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B
I need to talk about something.
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C
Some of the greatest conversation happened in what we call pillow talk, you know, so the quantity is more important than the quality, honestly.
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A
So PC, Go ahead guys.
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B
No you're good. I feel like you guys have brought that into adulthood, too, of, like, packing on quantity time. And, I mean, getting five individual families plus, you know, yours, like, the top of the family tree is not an easy thing. But you guys really do try to maximize the quantity, and you never wait to be asked. You guys are asking, and it makes it to where, you know, even if we can't be there every single time, it's like, okay, I know that I'm wanted. I know that our presence, like, even yesterday, actually, whenever I found out that Ms. Tammy was going to be doing, she was sitting on our playroom floor acting very nonchalant because I was like, that's a woman who doesn't know she's on the Girl leader podcast. So I think I'm gonna break the news to her. But you were just like, hey, I have a few minutes. Can I drop by and see the girls? And that means the world. It's like, you guys have never been afraid to ask first and have the quantity. Even if it's 15 minutes, it just means the world.
- [23:39]
C
We'll FaceTime. Nearly every night we try to get them over dinner, and we never have the expectation either. That's one of the worst things I think parents of grown kids can do is that. Well, we keep asking, you guys keep saying, no, no, no, no. Just the doors open. If you can come, fine. If you can't find, we're going to eat anyway. But we made enough for you if you want to stop by and try not to have expectations, but the door is always open and trying to be intentional with that.
- [24:02]
A
And so we can we. I want to dig into the seasons because, I mean, I think you guys, PC last episode, you even unpacking. Hey, here's some things I wish I would have done better in this season. I want to look at kind of young kids season, the teenage years, and even the season you're in now, which you just gave us a great tip for how we, you know, let your adult kids be adult kids in that season. But if you could go back and talk to Tammy Hodges with. With five young kids and trying to lead something and develop something, like, meaningful and impactful in Birmingham, what's the thing you would say to Miss Tammy to yourself?
- [24:38]
D
Right. Well, so back in the day, you know, I did struggle with the voice in my head that told me I wasn't enough or, you know, I wasn't a dynamic person on the stage or teaching, you know, the women or whatever. I just want to remind. I would want to Remind myself that God wants to use me just the way I am. And, you know,
- [25:04]
C
anything with the kids that you would go back and do differently. I think you're such an amazing mom. But, I mean, is there anything you would tell yourself to that. To that person and how we raised our children when they were little? I think you were so. She was so present and so nurturing and so kind. I think we were a good mix because obviously I was a bit more the disciplinarian and structured side of that, and. And then she was really, really nurturing. But I think we.
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D
I think. I think maybe I was a little naive because, you know, you were so
- [25:35]
C
innocent growing up yourself.
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D
That's why I never did anything. I never did anything. But I needed Jesus just as I needed Jesus just so it doesn't matter how good I was.
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B
But, yeah, okay.
- [25:49]
D
But maybe I would be more bold to ask some hard questions.
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C
See, now, I was a bad kid. So we had this debate all the time of. I always said they're up to something. She goes, no, they're not sweet little angels doing perfect. I'm saying, I'm telling you there's something going on. There's something going on here. And so. And I was more right than she was in that.
- [26:14]
A
So she's telling you they're not as bad as you think they are, and you're telling her they ain't as good as you think they are.
- [26:18]
C
Exactly. So I think that's the lesson, though. But again, you never miss that if you're involved. You know, it's only when you disconnect. And I know where you're going with this conversation, Matt. And I can tell you what my misses were. And that is every time I disconnected when we didn't know really where they were spending the night, which I'm not even sure, by the way, we would ever allow a spending the night policy ever again, given all the stuff that's online and what other people's policies for what people can watch, see, do 1,000%. I mean, honestly. And then their friends, you know, I would have been a little bit more aggressive in who the friends they were choosing, even if they would have gotten mad at me because you show me their friends, I'll show you their future and what they're up to. And the misses were when we just didn't know. And so the question begs, like, how do you know and you know, if you're in daily conversations. So the way I say it to pastors now is if you and your kids aren't Talking, you're already in ways you don't even know yet. But if you're talking with them, even if they're not doing well. And so we had a policy at our house. I don't even care if you do something wrong if you tell me about it, if you'll involve me in your mistakes, your madness, your depression, your whatever, as long as you're talking with me about it, hey, I promise you I'll be graceful and we'll work through it. But you start lying to me, disconnecting from me, separating, being deceitful. There's no relationship with deception, None. And so that's what I would tell the younger me. It'd be even more intentional about that.
- [27:54]
B
Will you even give more context? Tell people the ages of the kids when you planted Church of the Highlands? Because I think it's so admirable.
- [28:05]
C
I'm glad you didn't ask me that question.
- [28:07]
B
I know she knows the details exactly, but I think some people can use young kids as an excuse to serve God of I'm very busy. Because young kids are very demanding. You also had older kids give context to what your family actually looked like when you guys moved to Birmingham with no family and no friends up here. Because it is an incredible thing what you did.
- [28:28]
D
Well, Sarah was 11, Michal was getting ready to be 10. So then David would have been almost 7, Jonathan would have been 5, and Joseph was 3. When we moved and planting a church
- [28:45]
C
and leading small groups, I mean, we had, we had small groups. We were. No, it was, it was full on, you know, and yeah, it was full on.
- [28:53]
B
So in that time though, because you guys both in your own respected areas, I mean, you were building an incredible organization. You were also building an incredible organization. You were wrangling five kids at the same time, which is crazy. One time, as Tammy said it was, there was five of the grandkids and she told some of the daughters in law, she was like, you guys go for a walk. Like, okay, are you okay with all the kids? She was like, there's only five. I said, man, that's a phrase I will never say. Thank you very much. But you guys both did incredibly hard things and at the same time. So talk to me about what's one thing you remember respecting about Mr. Chris the most during that time and what's one thing you remember respecting and learning from Ms. Tammy at that point in your marriage?
- [29:39]
D
Well, I mean, I was always so proud of the way he leads and even just the vision and the boldness to step out and and do it. But. But at the same time, it's like I. Deep inside, I knew he could do it. So it's like I. I knew we were going to be able to do this, have a great, you know, have this church for God and for the body of Christ. And I don't know, I think I
- [30:07]
C
would say that we both modeled our personal Christianity out in the open. So our kids saw us reading our Bibles, saw us praying. And I'll tell you this, this, God be our witness, we never once had one negative thing come out of our mouth about the church. Oh, yeah, we love the church. We love the church. I mean, we love the church. We'd sit at the dinner table and all. It was, man, look at what God did today at church. Wasn't it great? So our kids grew up. And sure enough, when you think now, today, 25 years later, our kids love God and love the church. And we made that as the goal of success, but that we weren't going to measure it based on how many Fs they made on tests or how many bad choices they made in life. Our measuring stick was going to be three things. Do they love God, love us, and love the church? And I said, maybe I'd add a fourth. And after they had the freedom to not be in our home, would they want to come back and be with us? And we fought for those things. And when mistakes happen, and they will be gracious, be forgiving. To Tammy's point, probably is one of the best chapters of the book, and that is give people a second chance, because you never know when you're going to need one, too. And just live with that perspective of being gracious to the things that happen. And the road wasn't always beautiful and, and it was messy at times, but by the grace of God, here we are. And in some version, every one of them is serving God. And they're over a lot. In fact, they're over so much, we wonder if they have friends. You know, we love them deeply.
- [31:37]
B
I know you guys are our friends, by the way.
- [31:41]
C
And just this year, I know she'll want to probably end with this great news is that we had grandbaby number 11 in January, grandbaby number 12 in February. And this is a. And there's another one coming in October now. So number 13 is on the way. That's brand new news. You heard it here on the Grow Leader podcast.
- [32:01]
A
Papa who's Pastor Chris, and honey who is Ms. Tammy. All right, so we're going to finish up Easter weekend Coming up. So, so many of us focused on Easter, and at the same time, we keep hearing, we've got friends who are in ministry, whose marriages, man, they have hit the rocks in their marriage. Practical advice for the couples that want to do something great, want God to do something great in their church, how they can have something great happen in their marriage at the same time during a season like Easter, what would you say to the couples that are listening right now just on the marriage, health, and the season that we're in as believers?
- [32:33]
D
Well, you're a team and just, you have to support one another and give lots of love and lots of grace to each other because it's hard and it's a lot of pressure.
- [32:46]
C
They say the perfect marriage is two servants in love. And what Tammy does absolute best is I'm the focus of her attention the second I walk in the doors, what do you need? What do you want? I'm here for you. Hopefully she would say the same thing about me. And I would just say, it doesn't take money. It does take a little time. Just takes a lot of intentionality and effort just to say, just to stop and slow down and what do you need? And so we have a discipline that I would pass on, actually. I'll give you two that are pretty radical, but we make a point to do them every day. And every day, we sit down on the couch together, hold hands, and connect every day, no matter how much time we have. And the kids will be. They can attest to this. We never miss a day. We don't ignore one another. And then, secondly, we go to bed at the same time. So we don't separate there. I know other people can't imagine even making that a reality. We just think we're going to be in partnership there. We're not going to allow the enemy to have any place in our lives. And so it's a great discipline that we've employed. And we are more in love 40 years later than we've ever been. And that's a fact.
- [33:54]
A
Well, I want to say we appreciate you. And my marriage is better because of the marriage of Chris and Tammy Hodges. And just so grateful for you guys. You've built something incredible. The best thing's your family, though. And just celebrate what God's done in your family. That's going to help every single one of all of us. Hey, we are praying for your Easter services. Praying that every single person out there, man, that your church is full and that God moves and he's going to because he said he would. And we can't wait to see you next time on the Grow Leader podcast.