GTM Live – "Engineering Pipeline You Can Predict"
Podcast: GTM Live
Host: Passetto
Guest: Carolyn Dilks, CEO & Co-Founder, Passetto
Date: September 22, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode centers on exposing and fixing the "pipeline black box" in B2B SaaS go-to-market (GTM) organizations, enabling more predictable, efficient revenue pipelines. Guest Carolyn Dilks (CEO & Co-founder of Passetto) unpacks the pitfalls in current GTM measurement, explains Passetto’s hybrid advisory/software approach to solving pipeline transparency, and offers actionable strategies for B2B marketing and revenue leaders who are ready to move beyond outdated metrics.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Carolyn Dilks' Background and Path to Passetto
- Background: Began in VC, spent 15 years at B2B tech scale-ups, primarily in marketing leadership roles (four-time Head/VP of Marketing, including a Series B Govtech firm).
- [00:31]
- Journey to Passetto: Motivated by frustrations in proving marketing investment value amid investor pressure, lack of effective data architecture, and legacy lead-focused measurement.
- “Leads are the gold standard of marketing performance, but they are a terrible metric.” (Carolyn, [03:18])
- Role Models: Influenced by Chris Walker’s disruptive, anti-MQL philosophy and eventually joined him at Passetto.
What Is the Pipeline Black Box?
- Definition: The poorly tracked period before an opportunity is created (when leads/prospects are actively worked by SDRs/AEs/Marketing).
- “It’s just this period of time before an opportunity is created that is very poorly tracked.” (Carolyn, [06:41])
- Why It Matters: Most organizations can't answer fundamental questions about what’s working in their GTM, because they lack visibility into these pre-opportunity touchpoints and triggers.
The Analogy: Manufacturing Pipeline Like Products
- Drawing a parallel to manufacturing: factories track every part, process, and outcome, but pipeline creation is often left to chance.
- “We just throw a bunch of shit into the factory, hold our breath, cross our fingers, and think it’s going to come out the other side... but when shit goes sideways, we have no ability to figure out what's happening on the line, to actually improve it.” (Carolyn, [10:30])
Attribution vs. True Pipeline Engineering
- Attribution Pitfalls: Many marketers over-rely on attribution tools, hoping to show the value of every touchpoint, but this often leads to finger-pointing and doesn’t answer deeper efficiency questions.
- “You are not going to get the answers that you are looking for in attribution. It’s sort of like ancillary, it's secondary. The first thing you need to do is figure out: do you have a marketing problem?” (Carolyn, [14:39])
- Key Insight: Instead of defending volume metrics (MQLs), organizations should track the true conversion of leads to meetings and opportunities.
- “As soon as you have visibility into your prospecting efficiency... it’s absolutely illuminating what a company can learn when they expose that.” (Carolyn, [19:22])
Concrete Client Example & Learnings
- Case Study: $100M CLM platform with falling pipeline and rising CAC.
- Findings:
- Their MQLs converted to qualified pipeline at ~16-17% (better than average).
- “Hand raisers” (leads requesting a demo) converted at over 40-50%, and did so within 12 days.
- Random MQLs took over 130 days to convert, if ever. Huge inefficiency observed in cold outbound efforts.
- Impact: Directs focus to replicating fast-moving, high-converting patterns, even if it means MQL volumes decrease. - “…Be comfortable with metrics like MQLs to go down because we’re shifting how we do things. And we know that MQLs might go down over here, but our win rate, the volume of people we have to work to get those meetings might go down.” (Carolyn, [23:18])
- Findings:
Rethinking Metrics: Core KPIs for Predictable Pipeline
- Recommended Metrics:
- Overall pipeline (drop source/department attribution)
- Trigger: What action caused outreach or meeting attempt?
- Time to connect and time to meeting
- Days from first engagement to qualified pipeline
- Conversion and disqualification rates at each stage
- Resource allocation/sequence efficiency: What’s working vs. what’s a “resource suck”?
- Traditional downstream metrics: win rate, sales cycle length, ACV, closed/won revenue
- [24:00–26:35]
- Approach: Don't rip out current metrics—layer in efficiency-focused measures, and consider pipeline holistically, not by source.
Actionable Takeaways for B2B Marketing Leaders
- Assume Accountability: Don’t default to defending MQLs. Instead, challenge if the metrics you use actually serve the business.
- “Approach this with curiosity... maybe the metrics I’m looking at are doing a disservice... Assume some level of accountability or responsibility.” (Carolyn, [27:01])
- Challenge Attribution: If you’re not getting actionable answers from your attribution tool, it’s time to rethink.
- Bring RevOps, CRO, CEO Into the Conversation: Make transparency in the pre-opportunity stage a cross-functional priority.
- Focus on Meetings, Not Just MQLs: The number of meetings generated and their journey to opportunity are more important leading indicators than legacy top-of-funnel metrics.
- Be Willing to Change: Inertia and legacy thinking are the biggest blockers—especially at large, established companies.
Why Brand Still Matters (but is Tricky to Measure)
- Brand Activities: Carolyn supports sophisticated brand-building, but that's not Passetto’s focus.
- Market Realism: Buyers self-educate through ungated content, dark social, and peer recommendations, making attribution and touchpoints harder to track.
- “The stuff that you're doing in the market can help you do that. But generating leads from a white paper download or a badge scan at an event [is] highly inefficient today…” (Carolyn, [32:34])
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Traditional Metrics
“Leads are the gold standard of marketing performance, but they are a terrible metric.”
— Carolyn Dilks [03:18] -
On the Core Problem
“Every company that comes to us either feels like their pipeline is falling flat, or they're measured on the wrong metrics or growth is going down. But it's amazing. Nobody can answer what seems to be, like, the easiest question.”
— Carolyn Dilks [07:17] -
On the Manufacturing Analogy
“We have the ability to engineer and to manufacture pipeline the very same way, but we just throw a bunch of shit into the factory, hold our breath, cross our fingers and think it's going to come out the other side.”
— Carolyn Dilks [10:30] -
On Prioritizing Meetings Over MQLs
“If you can't get someone to a meeting, then what good was that anyways? …In today's ecosystem, demand conversion is really expensive... For what? To get 3,000 names a quarter that either don't go anywhere or that take us like 350 days to nurture and warm?”
— Carolyn Dilks [29:57, 32:33] -
On Change Management
“Try and get folks and create some groundswell around it because your instincts are probably right… I see that across the board with other companies. But I think the biggest thing is not letting inertia... get in the way.”
— Carolyn Dilks [37:33]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 0:31 | Carolyn’s professional background and frustrations with legacy GTM measurement
- 6:41 | Defining the pipeline black box
- 10:30 | The factory/manufacturing pipeline analogy
- 14:39 | Why attribution isn’t enough
- 19:22 | Visibility into prospecting efficiency: game-changer
- 20:25–23:20 | Real-world example: fixing pipeline at a $100M SaaS company
- 24:00–26:35 | Core metrics to add for pipeline efficiency
- 27:01 | Advice to B2B marketing leaders: assume accountability, challenge status quo
- 32:34 | Brand’s influence on pipeline and lead quality in today’s market
- 37:03 | Final advice: challenging department source metrics and attribution, pushing for change
Final Recommendations & Resources
- Shift Mentality: Move from “how many leads/MQLs?” to “how efficiently are we turning investment into meetings and real opportunities?”
- Layer, Don’t Replace: Add efficiency and conversion metrics to supplement (not immediately replace) your standard dashboard.
- Collaborate Cross-Functionally: Involve all GTM leaders in evaluating and correcting pipeline measurement and creation.
- Never Stop Challenging: If current tools and metrics aren't giving actionable insight, push for change—especially as you plan for the next year.
Connect with Carolyn Dilks:
- Passetto website
- Listen to the GTM Live podcast with Carolyn and her co-founders
Summary prepared for B2B GTM and revenue leaders who want actionable, modern strategies for truly measurable growth. No vanity metrics, no fluff.