517: Tania Khazaal: Building Emotional Resilience Through Discipline, Discomfort and Accountability

Summary

Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle - Episode 517

Guest: Tania Khazaal
Host: Jen Cohen
Released: January 6, 2026
Theme: Building Emotional Resilience Through Discipline, Discomfort, and Accountability

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the modern epidemic of family estrangement, emotional healing, and the erosion of resilience in today’s culture. Emotional healing expert Tania Khazaal shares her journey from personal estrangement to reconciliation, explores why emotional resilience is declining, and offers practical tools for individuals and families to rebuild connection and personal strength. Host Jen Cohen facilitates a dynamic, unfiltered conversation packed with actionable insights, tough love, and memorable anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Estrangement Epidemic: Historical and Cultural Drivers

[00:16–02:25]

• One in four families is now estranged—a figure driven up over the past decade.
• Tania links this trend to the rise of “gentle parenting,” therapy culture, and the “my feelings are facts” mindset rooted in therapeutic movements starting in the 1970s.
• Media like Oprah’s show and books such as "Toxic Parents" have popularized a narrative that encourages distancing for self-protection rather than reconciliation.

Quote ([01:13], Tania):
"...There's a perfect correlation between the rise of mental health issues and the rise of therapy. It goes hand in hand."

---

2. Therapy’s Double-Edged Sword

[02:25–08:36]

• Therapy, instead of always healing, can reinforce a “victim and villain” dynamic, keeping people stuck rather than leading to repair or growth.
• The normalization—even glamorization—of therapy can sometimes become a status symbol, obscuring the importance of self-reliance and community support.

Quote ([02:25], Jen):
"Perseverance has become a lost trend."

Quote ([08:04], Tania):
"I had someone buy my $27 program who said, 'This helped me more than the last six years of therapy.'"

---

3. Triggers, Toxicity, and Accountability

[08:36–11:34]

• Today’s culture equates being “triggered” by someone with that person being “toxic,” prompting cut-offs rather than reflection or communication.
• True emotional healing involves self-reflection—asking “Why am I triggered?”—and developing resilience instead of simply distancing from discomfort.
• Tania illustrates the shift by using her reconnection with her own mother as an example.

Quote ([08:42], Tania):
"If you're triggered, they're toxic...No, you gotta look in the mirror: why am I being triggered? What do I gotta work through?"

---

4. Socioeconomics of Estrangement

[09:30–11:34]

• Family estrangement emerges more frequently in affluent contexts, where survival isn’t the primary concern and entitlement can breed distance.
• Societal influence—from media to social networks—has gradually undermined the concept of the irreplaceable family unit.

Quote ([10:42], Tania):
"I truly believe for years and years, we've been primed to believe that the family unit is replaceable."

---

5. Personal Story: Tania’s Estrangement and Reconciliation

[11:34–16:43]

• Tania shares how jealousy, perceived neglect, and conflict led her to cut off her mother for two years—a relatively short period compared to others.
• She stresses how the causes of estrangement are often less severe now, highlighting rising entitlement and the erosion of discipline as core issues.

---

6. Sibling Dynamics and Patterns of Reconnection

[14:53–16:43]

• Only children, lacking sibling conflict and negotiation, may have less resilience and a higher propensity for entitlement and estrangement.
• Most familial estrangements are not permanent; platforms like TikTok, however, often promote content that validates permanent cut-offs and harsh labeling.

---

7. The Labeling Trap: Narcissism and No-Contact Culture

[16:16–18:33]

• Terms like “narcissist” and prescriptions for “no contact” are overused, leading to further polarization and loneliness.
• The inability to have difficult, bridge-building conversations is a driver of both chronic illness and social breakdown.

Quote ([16:43], Jen):
"All these, like, very harsh ways of, to your point, protecting your peace. ...But then, like, what, you're alone now? What now?"

---

8. Healing Without Therapy: Compassion, Mirror Work, and Rewriting Stories

[18:06–22:01]

• Key steps to healing include:
  • Removing yourself emotionally from the story and rewriting the history of those who hurt you to develop compassion.
  • Mirror work: honestly facing others' criticisms and using them as a springboard for self-improvement.
• Compassion makes space for mistakes and true reconnection.

Quote ([20:27], Tania):
"Mirror work is so hard because it makes people feel like, am I a bad person? ...I need to be able to look in the mirror."

---

9. Repairing Estrangement: Communication and Ownership

[22:01–24:43]

• Repair involves both parties: parents should focus on acknowledging pain without justification, and children should strive to see their parents’ human stories.
• Reconnection doesn’t always require perfect mutual readiness—one side can initiate if there’s even the smallest willingness.

Quote ([22:41], Tania):
"It's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it."

---

10. Current Reasons for Estrangement

[25:14–29:20]

• Top causes include:
  • Political disagreements.
  • Over-labeling parents as “toxic” or “narcissistic.”
  • Parental alienation post-divorce.
  • Daughter-in-law-driven power shifts—the “power shift estrangement.”

Quote ([25:21], Tania):
"Politics. Crazy. I've seen people cut their parents off because they voted for Trump, like, since when did politics become a reason?"

---

11. Discipline, Tough Love, and the Fallacy of “Gentle Parenting”

[30:34–32:33]

• The decline of discipline leaves children feeling invincible, removes consequences, and undermines emotional resilience.

Quote ([30:52], Tania):
"If there's no discipline, you feel invincible...you don't care about the consequences because someone is going to come and save you."

---

12. Emotional Healing and Physical Health

[32:43–37:28]

• Suppressed expression and unaddressed emotional issues are closely linked to physical ailments, including autoimmune conditions and cancer.
• True healing involves progressing through hardship, not ruminating in victimhood.

Quote ([34:54], Tania):
"Suppression of expression is probably the leading cause of autoimmune [disease]...not being able to articulate and communicate your feelings."

---

13. Practical Strategies for Healing and Growth

[37:28–46:42]

• Rewriting your own story: Understanding personal programming and challenging beliefs is key to moving forward.
• The Four Stages of Success:
  1. Uninformed Optimism
  2. Informed Pessimism
  3. Valley of Despair—where most people quit.
  4. Success—requires perseverance through despair.

Quote ([39:32], Tania):
"Most people get so caught up in the valley of despair...instead of saying, 'this is my growth.'"

• Acting from “future pacing” (making choices based on the person you want to become) rather than your current circumstances ensures progress and avoids perpetual stuckness.

---

14. Belief, Affirmations, and Action

[53:42–58:46]

• Building self-belief starts with real, actionable self-affirmations—paired with steps proving those affirmations true.
• Affirmations alone aren’t enough; they must be matched by concrete actions (“Tawakkil”: trust, action, and letting go of outcome).

Quote ([56:16], Tania):
"You can reword it: 'I'm capable of being...' So it's normal to have resistance. But then you have to meet it with action."

---

15. Reflection on Cultural Shifts and the Road Ahead

[59:03–61:19]

• The widespread validation of feelings and social media algorithms feed into divisiveness, but Tania is hopeful the pendulum will swing back as this cycle reaches its unsustainable peak.

Quote ([59:43], Tania):
"It's not going to last. It's not going to be sustainable."

---

16. Feedback and Impact

[61:47–63:02]

• Tania receives stories from both estranged children and parents who reconnected after following her advice, underscoring the transformative power of compassion and communication.

Quote ([62:59], Tania):
"I've never met my grandson—thanks to you I just met my grandson."

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I read my way through life...through neuroscience and psychology books, because I felt I couldn't get answers elsewhere." — Tania ([07:18])
• "As soon as desperation and panic and fear is coming in, that's not healthy for the relationship." — Tania ([24:36])
• "Every hardship, I'm going through everything...I have found God again. I have started to live for me again." — Tania ([52:20])

---

Important Timestamps

• Estrangement statistics & cultural history: [00:16–02:25]
• Therapy and the victim mindset: [02:25–08:36]
• Triggers and the “toxic” label: [08:36–11:34]
• Personal estrangement story: [11:34–16:43]
• Current causes of estrangement: [25:14–29:20]
• Discipline and tough love: [30:34–32:33]
• Health impacts of emotional suppression: [32:43–34:54]
• Four stages of success/overcoming despair: [39:32–46:42]
• Affirmations, neural pathways, and action: [53:42–58:46]

---

Language and Tone

The conversation is candid, passionate, and occasionally irreverent, blending personal revelation with grounded advice. Both Jen and Tania blend personal anecdotes, scientific rationale, and tough love to drive home their points, making the episode both engaging and deeply practical for anyone wrestling with emotional resilience, family rifts, or cultural confusion about what healing truly means.

---

For More

Follow Tania Khazaal via her website and social media for ongoing insights, programs, and daily practical content on emotional healing, communication, and family dynamics.

Transcript

[A]

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

[B]

All right, you guys, welcome to Habits and Hustle. We have a special guest. She's Canadian. So automatically, you know, I love her. Her name is Tanya Cazale.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's right. All right. And she is an emotional healing expert. I found her on Instagram. One of your reels. One of her reels just like popped up and, and she was so articulate. I loved what she was saying. And it was also very unusual content which we're going to get into. We're going to talk all about estrangement from families. It's a huge epidemic now. One in, one in four families are estranged from each other in the family. I can't believe that number.

[A]

It's a scary number.

[B]

It's unbelievable, right?

[A]

Especially in the last, I'd say 10, seven to 10 years.

[B]

Especially that the last seven to 10 years. Is it because of the, I guess the rise of gentle parenting and caudal culture and how, how we parent and how we kind of grow up in today's culture is very different. So are kids becoming more estranged to their parent? Like, tell me what's going on?

[A]

So I think it's. There's a lot that fed into this. It's that tied in with the rise in therapy as well. There's a perfect correlation between the reduction of mental health, the rise of mental health issues and the rise of therapy. It goes hand in hand. And I think that I talk. If you want to know the history, this has been happening for a while is because in the 70s, Carl Rogers introduced like the kind of, the personal, personal first kind of therapy where it was like my feelings are facts. And it now turned into whatever I feel is real and it's the, it's the truth. And that started to bleed into the culture of the 80s and 90s where you've got the, the Oprah's and the Dr. Phils that really pushed toxic parent books boundaries. Protecting your peace. And then it slowly led into. We can no longer build emotional resilience in people because they don't want to work through the hard emotions. They just rather succumb to their feelings, which I think is also feeding into the gentle parenting which is coddling them, being too nice to them, letting them whatever they feel is facts and reassuring them instead of saying no, no, you need to grow emotional toughness, you have to go through the discomfort. I need to let you fail. I need to let you cry. I need to let you Hurt and actually grow from it instead of just trying to whatever you want.

[B]

It is so this really interesting you just said this because I just saw something that came up recently about Oprah and how she was kind of the. Kind of the OG or the beginning of, of what's happened now with therapy and focusing on yourself so much. Like, there's this whole concept and, and it sounds like you're kind of on that camp, which is the more we think about ourselves and our problems and ruminate about what's wrong, we're getting more mentally ill, 100 and more mentally sick versus how it used to be, where we kind of had to like, kind of like build a. Have a thick skin and kind of know we have issues, but we still kind of trudge along anyway and we know how to. We like kind of had the, the coping mechanism and ability to kind of persevere. Yeah, Perseverance has become like a lost, like, kind of like, like, kind of like a, A lost trend, so to speak.

[A]

It almost doesn't exist because it, it's the protecting your peace culture, which is actually protecting your pain. And if you're not working through the pain or accepting it as like. And, and, and I think the biggest thing is, is why it feeds into the mental health is because now people are, people are stuck in a victim and villain mentality. I'm the victim to my story and I, oh, I want to stay, stay in the victim mindset. Because when I'm a victim, which is what's happening right now in the emotionally weak society we have is they're no longer. They get so much attention. There's so much attention around the vulnerability and the victim mindset that they want to stay there. They're not actually healing through it being like, no, I'm not a victim. I'm going to be a victor and I'm going to work through this and I'm going to overcome it and everything like that which ties into. You mentioned the family estrangement one and four because it has a lot to do with our childhood hardships. And now when you go to therapy and I know because I was in therapy and that's what fed my culture of not talking to my mom. And it was like, oh, she did that to you? That must have been really hard. How did that affect you? What else should she do to you? So it started to be like, right, my mom did that to me. And it got me stuck in the victim mentality instead of saying, wait, my mom grew up with 16 siblings. Her dad died when she was three. She was the 15th out of the 16th. Of course, she was neglected unintentionally. So to her, she did the best she can with me. So instead of teaching us that kind of resilience, I was feeding into the. You're right, she did cause me pain, but there was no repair. So therapy is telling you your feelings are facts. But then there was no leading to the repair of. Okay, so what do I do now? And how do I toughen up to say, get over it.

[B]

Right. Because it sounds to me like it's true. Right. Therapy tends to villainize.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Whoever caused you that. Whoever caused you that pain.

[A]

That's exactly it.

[B]

And even if it's your mom or dad doing the best they can because it's their first time being a parent.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And then you're feeding into being a human.

[A]

It's the first time on earth, like.

[B]

They'Re making the same mistakes that we are, 100%. And so. Okay, so. Okay, so you're saying it's become very prevalent in the last, let's say, 10 years.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Okay, but for sure. Okay, but if. If the Dr. Phil's and the Oprah's of the world were kind of in the 80s, which were, let's say, 30 years ago.

[A]

And that's why it's the highest in millennials. Oh, it's the highest in millennials. And it's feeding into the younger generation.

[B]

To the millennials.

[A]

Right now, my audience, the primary people that purchase my programs and everything are between 60s and 70s. It's their children who are running our age, which is perfect. I'm 37 years old. It was exactly the age where I was talking to therapy and I cut off my mom. Because we are the conscious generation. We're the ones that are breaking the cycles of what our parents did or didn't do, which I think is incredible because we are. But at the same time, because of that, we're now leaning into more than ever, protecting our peace and living this Zen life where it's like, no, but at the same time, life is not Zen all the time. And how do we build this emotional resilience?

[B]

It's unbelievable because I don't, I don't know if it was just because or I don't know if it's because I live in la, right? And I, I'm in LA a lot. I'm in New York a lot. I'm in these, like, big, you know, very metropolitan cities. A lot, my friends, are that. And even the rhetoric and the, and the Chatter is all about my therapist. Like, it enforced.

[A]

It's in style now.

[B]

It's in style. Like, it's not only. It's in style with enforc sentences of meeting somebody, even on a zoom, a business person. They're like, yeah, I have my therapy in, like, one hour. I gotta go to therapy. It's become kind of like something very so common. Like, hey, you know, like, I'm gonna have, like, chicken and broccoli for dinner, or, you know, I'm gonna put my underwear on before I put on my pants. Like, it's now become the thing where, you know, if you don't have a therapist, you're the. You're. You're the one that's odd, right? Yeah, it's exactly your suck. Which is interesting because, like, I've been going through a very difficult time of late, and every single person is like, well, go see a therapist. Go see a therapist. Or like, who's. You know, who's your therapist? Or like, oh, my God, you really need to see a therapist. I'm like, well, why can't I just kind of work it through? Like, why can't I just talk to my friends? Or why can't I just kind of work it through my. Like, you become, like, ostracized if you want to, like, deal with your problems on your own.

[A]

Right? And that's why I've read my way through life. Like, this is why I read so much neuroscience and psychology books and everything for so long, is because I felt like I couldn't get answers, so I had to read my way through understanding the emotion and what's happening from a neurological level, physiological level. Like, that's what got me to that understanding. I was like, oh, I see what's happening and why people are staying stuck. Because now if you go and see a therapist, it's like, you're validating that something is wrong with you. And it's like, no, what is wrong with you? You had childhood hardships, so how can you rewrite the story or make sense of what happened versus staying stuck there? And I feel like even though people go to a therapist to not stay stuck, they're more stuck than ever.

[B]

Yeah, well, they're. I mean. I mean, I also know people who've been like, they've been going to therapy for 20 years, 10 years, 30 years.

[A]

I hear it all the time. I had someone buy my $27 program who's like, this helped me more than the last six years of therapy.

[B]

It becomes. It becomes a habit.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, A very expensive habit. And that's, you know, it ties into the fact that, by the way, I don't know how much it costs in Canada here. $400 an hour. Minimum. Minimum. Right. And like. And you can't even get an appointment. It's become someone.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's a racket. Right? It's a racket. So then. Okay, so explain this to me. So in the last seven to 10 years, like, what has been the evolution of, like, you go see the therapist, you're, like, telling them how your mother and father did this and that to you, and then the next step is estrangement or what?

[A]

Yeah. So what's happening is. It's. If. It's. If you're triggered. That's the. Another word, trigger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. If you're triggered, they're toxic. And. And that goes hand in hand. So now it's turned into. Oh, they're triggering me. They must be toxic. Toxic. I gotta protect my peace. So I'm gonna keep my distance. I'm gonna keep my distance because they're triggering me. And it's like, no, this is why when I say emotional healing, you gotta look in the mirror and say, why am I being triggered? What do I gotta work through? Because if I'm allowing someone else to have that much control on me, it's. It's a me problem. It's not them. You can't expect someone to change in order to change you being triggered. And so that's. What's happening, is people are consciously aware of their triggers. So then avoid the person that's creating that discomfort instead of saying, wait, what do I gotta work through so that I'm no longer uncomfortable? And that's what. Exactly. What I did with my mom, it was like I started to rewrite her story. I started to work through it and said, I gotta get to a point where she can do the same thing. And I'm just like, okay, but. And what.

[B]

Okay, couple questions. Is it. Is it more prevalent in environments and cultures that have more money because they have more access to therapy and they have a. Like the. All that. That whole culture of. You don't see people who are struggling to put food on the table worrying that much about their mental issues?

[A]

That's a very good question. So can I say it's very prevalent. I've definitely noticed there's a pattern of people who are just getting by and in survival mode. You're right. They don't even have time to think about that because family is what's keeping them together. And Surviving. I'm definitely noticing a trend with people who. The children who are very entitled.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who are given everything, who are bought everything, who, you know what I mean, didn't have to go through life struggles to grow that resilience. But I'm also seeing the pattern of I was a single mom or I did the best that I can. I had a. It was a bad divorce or whatever it is, and the child went off to college. And now it was the societal influence which you're seeing more in the younger generation, but our generation was more societal. Societal influences. Think about, like I said, the Oprah's. Oprah's biggest books that she promoted on her show was literally called Toxic Parents and another one called Boundaries.

[B]

Those are the biggest books she.

[A]

Yes. And if you think about even the movies and the shows, it was always conditioned. Think about Disney movies. I mean, my kids don't watch it, but Disney movies. The mom is. The stepmother is either terrible, the mother is not in the picture. The mother died. Like, it's like it was priming us. I truly believe that for years and years, we've been primed to believe that the family unit is replaceable. And now when you look at the Internet and the online connection and everything that is happening at such a fast pace that people are finding where they belong outside of the people who raised them from their roots. And I will always say, because I'm very faith driven, is the devil loves nothing more than just disconnecting the family unit. Because you're that much more easily to be manipulated, to stay in the victim mindset, to stick to where you belong in the outside culture. And then when you break that, that root, that foundation, you're easily, like, swayed into any direction. It's. It's almost scary sometimes.

[B]

So then what. What happened to you? Like, what was your story that kind of put you on this path in the first place?

[A]

Of why I was estranged.

[B]

Yeah, like what? Like, yeah, why were you estranged?

[A]

So I grew up. My sister's two years older than me, and she had health issues when we were younger. So from a very young age, my mom spent a lot more, like, time with her, taking care of her, doing all of that. My mom also was going through abuse and different issues when. And she was a young mom. But it got to a point that I. We grew up in community housing, so we really didn't grow up with money or anything like that. And because of it, I got a job by the time I was 14 years old. Where it started was I was 14. I got a job in order to pay for stuff myself. And on my 5th, 14th, or 15th birthday, I didn't get a cake and I didn't get a gift. My sister's birthday is nine days after me, and she got it. And I remember I asked, why didn't I get one? And she's like, well, you're. You're working now. I thought that you would buy it for yourself if you wanted it. And that started the like, you don't care about me. Everything's about her. I'm the daughter. Like, you don't notice me. And because my sister was so close to her, if my sister and I argued, my mom would always take her side and come and attack me without giving me a chance to talk. And it continued that way until my early 20s. And then it got to a point where I was the first one to graduate college. I was supposed to get, like, a car, like a used car as a gift. And instead my mom spent it on something for my sister. And then I was in a relationship that my parents. My mom said, I don't like who you're dating. I was in my early 20s, at this point, had graduated, and I was working. Now I'm a woman, essentially. And she said, we don't like him. You're either breaking up with him or you can't. Don't talk to us. And I was like, how are you giving me an ultimatum when it came to love, by the way, because of the estrangement, I started dating at a young age, trying to seek that outside validation of worthiness and love that I lacked at home. And I said, I'm not breaking up with him because you want me to. I'm an adult, okay? All of my stuff were put in garbage bags outside of my house, and I was kicked out of my house. And that's when it started. And I was like, fine, then I don't need you. I've been doing all this for myself. I don't need you. All that. And she was doing it in the name of protecting me because he really wasn't a healthy person for me. And that's kind of how it really started until eventually I myself saw that he was not healthy for me. And, yeah, working through.

[B]

Well, how lucky. So really you were estranged from your mom because you were jealous of your sister's attention that your sister was getting?

[A]

Yeah, and I was not getting that.

[B]

Love, and you weren't getting that love. So from what age? Like, how many years were you estranged?

[A]

Two years.

[B]

Oh, that's not even that terrible.

[A]

It's not that long compared.

[B]

So what's actually very interesting about your story is, you know, people get estranged for much less than that these days, like 100%. That's what I feel.

[A]

People hear my story and they're like, your mom is terrible. And I'm like, okay, but so what? You could sit here and analyze, but so what?

[B]

Well there's, that's what I find to be interesting. This is why I think this is where the coddling, the entitlement, the lack of ability to say no to your child, that's where I really kind of hook on. Because what I see is what we were saying a little bit earlier is when that's happening, the kid for whatever reason has much more leeway and ability to cut off the parents or the parents. Right. Because of that feel of entitlement. Right, right. I don't see it so much. Like I said in like people who actually probably have reason, like, you know, I've had a lot of people here who have been molested as a child and, and still talk to their parents.

[A]

And I, I get a lot of those messages of kids wanting that reconnection. So I think it's important in terms of the resilience. And there's a big correlation by the way between only children and ones with sibling three. Because kids with siblings, siblings argue 3,000 times more than an only child. So the only child is a lot more entitled. Where people with siblings are more, they learn better communication, they have more patience, reconnection. Because you're used to arguing coming back.

[B]

Arguing coming back. Right, right, exactly. Like they're used to that whole back and forth. Exactly how long do it? Like I, I guess you don't really. Maybe it's, this might be too broad. But how long does the family estrangement last?

[A]

Oh yeah, it's a very big difference. Some people have been months. I have. People have been 10 years longer.

[B]

Do they, do they usually come back to each other?

[A]

It's often not permanent. It's often not permanent. And that's why I really try to get the parents the tools to understand what's happening. But obviously society right now is doing in like tick. You should see the TikTok trends. So it's constantly validating that toxic culture. Like if your mom is narcissist, if she does this, you got to, you know, cutting off a narcissistic person is the best self care that you can do. And it's like that label is thrown around so easily. It's like what's narcissism Someone who has unhealed trauma that they haven't worked through that are projecting their pain. Okay, so what are you going to do about it? So that you don't have to just cut off anyone who is uncomfortable for you.

[B]

The reason why I'm nodding here is I can't tell you. That is all the content I see now.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I can't tell, like, it's on my algorithm. I'm like, what? I'm like, am I asking for that content? Because every second thing I'm looking at is who's a narcissist? What happens to deal with, like, how do you deal with the. Like the word narcissism in general is so over. It's the labels and tired or like no contact.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

All these, like, very harsh ways of, to your point, protecting your peace. Where I think. Which is which, what's happening is not only is the mental health crisis becoming absurdly high, but loneliness is becoming high. Because now, like, we're like, we're giving this, like, validation that, like, oh, yeah, you know, like, you're strong, you're like, you're taking care of yourself. Self care. But then, like, what, you're alone now? What now?

[A]

Exactly. And you see, and it feeds into like, their health. I was doing health consultations for so many years, Jen. And the correlation between their inability to communicate. Right. Suppression of expression is probably the leading cause of autoimmune. Forget, Forget the toxins. And everything else that people deal with is the ability to not be able to articulate and communicate your feelings and, and not just to articulate them, to be able to have a conversation with the person, a confrontational conversation that leads to an understanding of both sides. And that's the biggest thing that's lacking right now in marriage, in relationships, like siblings, everything. And that's happening with the child too. People are not learning how to effectively communicate when you talk about gentle parenting. They're not communicating to the child and showing tough love. There's no tough love anymore. And tough love means you're telling me something that's really uncomfortable that I got to work through in order to become more mentally capable of dealing with the crazy world that we live in.

[B]

So what are some solutions? Right? So let's say, for example, if therapy is one of the driving forces of why people are basically having, you know, not less mental health issues, but more, and their emotional healing is actually being stunted because they're ruminating and thinking about all their problems, what are some. What is an alternative to doing that? Like how does somebody emotionally heal without seeing a therapist?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, but, and taking ownership of whatever that issue is.

[A]

So that's a good question. I mean, I obviously talk about that in a community because it's not just a one step step, but one of the biggest steps I, I do is two things. One is when you think back on the people who hurt you the most, rewrite their story, take yourself out as, as stay on the estrangement topic. Me, myself as a child, I said, I'm removing myself. I'm no longer her child. There's no emotional. What is her story in detail? What can I think about her story? What did she go through? What are the pains? What are the hardships and everything. And then something happens that most people forget about is compassion. It's like it grows that compassion and then you have space for their mistakes. That's the number one thing that I do. The second thing is mirror work. And that's the hardest thing for people to do. And that means you look in the mirror and you say, what are some of the things that people have said to me that is not nice. You're, you're aggressive, you're mean, you're narcissistic, whatever the terms are. What are the things that I know people have said or that I'm not a hundred percent about myself? And what's the first thing I'm going to do to start improving it? Where's the truth in that? It's hard. Mirror work is so hard because it almost makes people feel like, am I a bad person? Nobody wants to feel like a bad person. Instead of just saying it's not about that. I need to be able to look in the mirror. I'm going to give you a real life example. I was told growing up that I was aggressive in the way I communicate. Like you're, you're, you sound aggressive. Like, why are you angry? I'm passionate. But sometimes the way that I communicate comes off as aggressive. And I would get so defensive when that was said to me until I had to look in the mirror and say, maybe there's some truth in that. What is it? And that's when I started to study communication and why I'm so passionate about communication. I said, okay, so let me start getting better at communication. How can I articulate it in a way that's not so aggressive? What do I have to do? I have to learn how to pause, I have to learn how to absorb. How can I say it in a different way so it's like I can sit there and be defensive because I don't want to think that I'm a bad person. I have these bad qualities versus mirror work and say, let me work through, step by step, the different things that I can work through.

[B]

So mirror work. And what was the first one that you said? So I can just write that?

[A]

Rewriting the story.

[B]

Rewriting the story?

[A]

Yeah. The villains of your story rewrite their story without you even being in the story.

[B]

That's hard to do.

[A]

It is hard to do, but it grows compassion. Because even if someone. I was in an abusive relationship, a domestic violent relationship, and if I were to even rewrite his story, I'm like, I feel bad for him. His older brother, who was in on, you know, in and out of, like, rehab and stuff like that, used to literally beat him. His dad used to beat him. This. He knew nothing else. And I could sit here and be the victim. Okay. Obviously, thankfully, I didn't stay with him. And domestic violence is a very scary place. And it's not to say, excuse abuse, but when it came to my healing, yes, I chose to walk away. But I had to say okay. It wasn't an indication of me and my worth. It's. He did not know better. These are his circumstances. That's it. The same way I did it with my mom, the same way I did it with anyone else. The same way I did it even with my own sister, who I didn't talk to for a little while, too, because of the whole situation with my mom. So it's like, you rewrite their story and you grow this compassion that you're like, so how am I going to sit here and hold on to that story when this is my perception? That's the thing. People are so stuck in their own perception that they don't recognize that the reason that this hurt is happening to you is not because it's you and your worthiness and everything. It's. It's usually a hundred percent their perception, what they went through, what they're projecting onto you. So when you can start to make that association, you feel more empowered in a sense of like, I have more patience for you. I see what you're doing. I wish you healing. I hope you find your path, and I'm okay, and I know what I'm worth.

[B]

But what hap. Okay, that's. I like that. But how do people find their way back to each other after estrangement if they're not mirroring, if they're not rewriting someone's story, what is typically the path back?

[A]

So what I do is I do two things from the parent's perspective. I try to have the parent understand what the child is going through and how to better communicate for the child. And that does include accountability. So I help the parents understand exactly what I'm teaching you right now. What we're talking about right now is I help the parent understand the child's perspective and how their, how they raised that child affected their upbringing along societal influences and everything like that.

[B]

But then, okay, so then the. Okay, so then there's self awareness.

[A]

The parent understand, that's the awareness. Exactly. And then, okay, so how do I approach the communication? Which is crazy, Jen. I get it all the time where parents are like, oh, my God, even. And I provide them with sometimes scripts just for them to understand how to. It's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it, right? So most often than not, I teach parents the number one thing that parents do is over apologize, over justify everything like that. Which means a child comes to you and says, you really hurt me when you did this. You really hurt me when you kicked me out of the house because I didn't want to end this relationship. And what does the parent typically do? Yes, but I did it because of this. And that pulls the child further away because the child's saying, but you're not seeing my pain. I just want to be acknowledged. And the parent's just like, wait, I just want you to understand my perspective. Because if you understand my perspective, you won't pull away. So I'm telling the parent, stop that. Why don't you just tell them, I'm sorry that that hurts you? And then once the child feels safe and their pain acknowledged, eventually you can say, I want to walk you through my perception. And clearly that wasn't the right way to deal with it, but this is the reason why. But that's not how you approach the conversation when someone is so hurt. So I help the parents see it from that perspective. Meanwhile, from the child's perspective, I help them to understand the parent, rewrite the parent's story and have more compassion and all of that for the parent. And everyone has to lead. Because a lot of people will say, well, there has to be both sides willing to do the work. No one has to lead. And sometimes it's the child that lead, like in my instance. And sometimes it's the parent that leads back to the child. And then you see that reconnection, that child seeing. The parents trying, they're communicating differently. They're not so Controlling and overbearing and. Or feeding the entitlement where children don't talk to their parents but then call them when they actually need something. The parent will throw it at them just to have any form of communication. So, so it's like still those healthy standards. I don't like the term boundaries, but those healthy boundaries have stopped feeding the beast.

[B]

Essentially giving into the child. Is that, is that a no? That's a no. No. You can't give a kid giving you ultimatums. I, you know, I don't want you to do this, I want you to do that. And the parent feeding into it because they're so desperate to have a relationship.

[A]

Yeah. As soon as desperation and panic and fear is coming in, that's not healthy for the relationship because you're leading from.

[B]

Like I'm willing to do anything, do.

[A]

Anything for a relationship. And that feels feeds the child's behavior. They're just going to get more and more of it. So you have to nip it in the butt and they're going to test you and they're going to try and take it even further. But eventually it's like when they have that consistency and their nervous system starts to get used to it, they don't react the same way. It's like you're. And, and, and this is why I talk about neuroscience. Because there's. It's the neuroplasticity. Right. And it's like they're so stuck in their behavior. The neural pathways are just so used to it. But the moment it's not treated the exact same way or they're not reacting the same way, those. They're forming new neural pathways. So they're forced to change.

[B]

What are like some of the top things you've been seeing recently of reasons that children are becoming estranged from parents.

[A]

Politics. Politics. Crazy. Because to think that someone's like so. And I see this a lot where I cut my parents off because they voted for Trump regardless of who. But I see this a lot. They voted for Trump, which means they don't care about my future. So why should I be in their life? Crazy. And I'm like, since when did politics become a reason? Another one that I see is the narcissism and toxic. My mom was very nar. And I hear it narcissistic. And I will ask them what does narcissism mean? What does your mom do that was narcissistic. And oftentimes exactly the example I gave is, well, every. She makes everything about her. If I try to talk about it, everything's about her. She doesn't care about my feelings, all of that stuff. And I was like, is that narcissism? Like what is. That's my. Narcissism is a diagnosed word, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the third, actually, I'm going to name two other ones. Parental alienation is a big one. A family goes through a divorce and one parent is badmouthing the other parent. So the children stop talking to the other parent. And then oftentimes what happens is I see the boy who's not talking to his dad grow up, want to reach out to his dad, and now resents his mom for not allowing her to talk to dad. Because the male psyche needs that male figure so that no matter how toxic that father is, they want to reach.

[B]

Back out to dad. Right.

[A]

And the other one is the daughter in law. It's probably the number one thing. The daughter in law is convincing the son that his mother is toxic and gives boundaries to the mother in law. And now the boy, the father is stuck between my wife and my child that I have to protect as my new family. And I'm going to listen to whatever my wife says against my dad, my family.

[B]

I've seen that a lot too.

[A]

A lot, a lot. I know it's literally. And it's, it's the daughter in law.

[B]

And I do say that now that you say that a lot. And what does that say about the husband or the son that he would cut off his own mom?

[A]

Well, the thing is, is it's, is.

[B]

It because he just wants to protect the peace.

[A]

Right. So it's called power shift estrangement. So power shift estrangement is essentially the daughter in law came in and she now took the power and the control of the relationship. And so oftentimes what really sucks is the boy, the son is, is, is not, he's not leading the estrangement. He's surviving in it because now he's in a place where I just, I'm trying to make people happy and I don't like my actual family is this now. So I'm just gonna go this way because I don't wanna not have my family and then choose my mom, which is gonna come off as like the mama's boy. So it's, and it ties into like, oh, mama's boy is not good and da da da. And that's how it's fed into that, that system. And it's so destructive because I also see how often children are learning that behavior based on how their parents dealt with It. And they're learning that love is disposable. And because they're learning that love is disposable, it's so easily thrown away and you'll find it somewhere else, but you don't find it that easily.

[B]

So let's start with the divorce one. Cause you said that as well.

[A]

Parental alienation, parent.

[B]

It's called parental alienation. What age does that typically happen? Is it older kids or younger kids?

[A]

Well, I mean it starts when you're younger. Like often the stories that I hear is like I escaped an abusive relationship or I left their dad who was narcissistic, who was horrible, blah, whatever it is. And the mother who's now a single mom, sacrificed everything for her kids. But oftentimes when you're sacrificing everything for your kids as a single mom, what happens? You're surviving. So you don't have the emotional capacity to deal with their emotions. You are literally surviving the same way. I made a post about immigrant parents. Immigrant parents don't show their love very differently because to them, if I. If you have a roof over your head and you've got food on your table, I'm showing you what love means right where now it's like they don't. They look at that like, well, you should take care of me well, but they don't show me love in other ways. And so you start seeing that pattern.

[B]

I do actually think immigrant parent a lot of times I actually know, listen, you see it way more than me. But kids tend to appreciate their immigrant, immigrant parents a lot because they, in like retrospect, like they know that they struggle. They like kids who come from, come from somewhere else and they come to America, whatever. They recognize how hard their parents and what they sacrifice for the kids.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I haven't seen that much of that in terms of the alienation. I've seen a lot of the divorce situation a lot. The, the daughter in law a ton.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Again, it's about, I think it's like so much, it seems to me it would depend on like where you are socio economically, culturally.

[A]

Right. I do see it still in a lot of immigrant family though when they're, when they've immigrated here and the child was young enough to now be maybe North Americanized.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And. And they think my parents were toxic. So for example, being spanked, the amount of people that like my parents, like one mother actually told me, Jen, that my daughter stopped talking to me because I don't remember what she did and I smacked her and she smacked me back. And she apologized. And the mother apologized. The daughter cut her off. And she's like, I've apologized so many times in my head. I'm like, what? Your daughter smacked you back? Like, I remember being smacked by my mom. And I remember lifting my hand. I never actually hit her and got another smack. She's like, raise your hand at me again. There's no discipline anymore. And that's not to say go and smack your kids, but there's zero discipline now. And now they're letting the children discipline the parent on how to be okay.

[B]

That's something I want to talk about because you just said the word that I had written down. The lack of discipline. 100 and the lack of what the. What's happening with the lack of. With when there's no discipline? Tell me from your expert expertise, what, like, give me the. The 360 of how that plays itself out.

[A]

Well, if there's no discipline, you feel like you're invincible. And when you feel like you're invincible, you'll do whatever it is. And you don't care about the consequences because someone is going to come and save you. Versus the discipline is you're learning that your decisions have consequences. So how can I take my time or work through the decisions that I have to make in order to not hurt people, to not hurt myself, to not create damage? All of that. And people now exactly like gentle parenting. There is no discipline. They're so afraid that if I discipline my child, they're going to miss out on something that I might have missed out on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that's not actually what's happening now. You're. You're actually start stopping your child from being able to experience what built the emotional resilience in you in the first place.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, you're preaching to the choir. I mean, like I said, I did a talk on this, a TED talk on this whole topic of mental resilience. And everyone gets a participation trophy. And you know, God forbid that you tell your kid no. And you know, the. How you speak to the child. Like, I'm so happy I grew up in the, in the 90s kind of thing. You know what I mean? Because I feel like it did help me, like, build a thick skin and become more resilient and like the latchkey era, you know what I mean? Like, my mom was working when I was coming home from school. Right. But it kind of like built like some kind of armor of like, of the. The knowing toughness. Yeah, the self efficacy.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's the self efficacy, discipline, the respect.

[A]

The, the toughness that I can handle these hard conversations. It's. But like people are now protecting their children so much, protecting their peace, protecting their kids. They're avoiding them, dealing with the real world. And the real world is freaking scary. It's shitty. Some days it's horrible.

[B]

People are taking their moms to job interviews.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, it's, it's really unbelievable. So let's talk about emotional healing, how it affects your health.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your happiness, your business and relationships. Let's go, let's go with how emotionally healing, how emotional healing affects your health. Let's go with that one first.

[A]

So I was doing I for many years. I was a practicing herbalist. And I got into it because my mom was actually on her deathbed from too many pharmaceuticals. She was on narcotics. And which obviously led into a big reason why I started talking to her again where I was like, I'm not ready to lose her. But I was like, there must be something natural that I can do. And I started to study it as much as I can. She became my guinea pig. She got off of her narcotics. The doctors are like, there's no way. And so I just had this new passion that I wanted to share this knowledge with people because I was like, wait, there's, there's natural alternatives to all of this healing. And through that, I started to do health consultations for so many years. And I saw the biggest pattern that was almost jaw dropping, where I would have people come to me, look, I'm eating organic, I'm exercising, I'm doing. My house is non toxic, I do everything. But they've got stage four cancer, they've got an autoimmune disease, they've got all of this. And when I started to dive into the emotional and physiological part of things, I haven't spoken to my mom in four years. My marriage is falling apart, this, whatever it was. And I was like, there's an emotional component here. And from that emotional component, it made me realize how much that affects your health. So much more. And then like I said, the suppression of expression, which means I'm. I'm protecting the peace by not vocalizing what I want to or need to in order to keep the peace of the home. But what's happening is that destruction is happening internally because you're not releasing it. And so it affects your health like crazy. Because if you're not able to communicate effectively and have, you know, the emotional healing and look at yourself in the mirror and grow as A person. By the way, the number one reason of happiness, which is the next one that you had talked about, is progression, that growth. So it's like if people are staying stuck, then they're not growing. And if you're not growing, then you're actually declining at that point. And that affects your level of happiness, which your level of happiness affects your level of health. Because if you're not laughing and you're not enjoying little things in life and you're not feeling like you're growing as a person, that 100% also feeds into your health.

[B]

Today's episode is powered by amp. You know those days when you're just done? I mean, the meetings, the kids, the to do list, and you still want to move your body, but the gym feels a million miles away. That's exactly why I love my amp. AMP is a smart, AI powered strength training device that sits right in your home. It's super sleek, literally looks like you got it at the Apple store. And it also counts your reps, adjusts your weights for you. And you're always training under the perfect amount of tension. So Whether you've got 15 minutes or 45, amp adapts in real time to make every workout simple, effective, and completely personal. And the app is super cool, too. It has hundreds of different workouts. Strength, pilates, mobility, recovery. And it's so easy to use. It's literally been a game changer for me. I don't have to plan my workouts or wonder what I'm going to do. I just turn on my amp and it takes care of the rest. And as a mom and a business owner and a podcaster, that convenience means I stay consistent. And, you know, strength training, especially for women, is so key for my hormone balance, longevity, and of course, confidence. So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp.comjen to learn more. That's joinamp.com Jen because strength should fit your life. Okay, so with that, though, emotional healing. So if someone is going through a tumultuous time, it could be anything, right? It could be whatever it is that's causing them to get sick. But how are they supposed to heal if it was. Let's not let. Forget about the estrangement part. Let's talk about other forms that people can be, you know, have emotional disruptions.

[A]

Through the, the hardship. It doesn't necessarily affect your health. It's how you choose to get past it. Like, that's the thing. It's, it's. People will naturally go through that. If anything, I think that's what builds the resilience. But it's when you stay stuck there. So for example, how many families or mothers stayed in abusive relationship, everything for the health of their kids. So now they no longer were expressing themselves, but they got sick because they stayed in that abusive relationship for the love of their kids and all of that. Or like this. That's what I'm more saying versus how can I heal through that and work through it and say, okay, this happened to me. I'm dealing with hardships. How can I take care of myself to release and know that I'm not saying stuck here?

[B]

So how does PE like give me like a walk me through how someone can start to emotionally heal?

[A]

I mean, that's a big question.

[B]

It is.

[A]

On top of like the mirror work. You already mentioned a mirror. And they're rewriting the story.

[B]

It's like those are for when you have. When it's. When it's about somebody else, but through the situation. Yeah, like in general, like, let's say you don't want to have a therapist that you talk to ad nauseam twice a week or a week, and maybe you can't afford it or maybe you don't have the time for it. What are some other ways people can start to.

[A]

But you rewrite your own story, right? So then you rewrite your own story, right?

[B]

How. So give me like walk me through what. So if someone's listening to this podcast and they're like, you know, I'm really going through a really hard time. I'm really stuck in this breakup. I'm really stuck in this, you know, whatever. Like they're like unhappy, they're depressed, where they are in their life. What's their like, what's their step by step plan?

[A]

So oftentimes. Yeah, often I would say like. And Joe Dispenza talks about this a lot, right? Where it's like breaking the habit of being yourself. And it's like, how do I rewrite my story? So it's when first is coming to the understanding of how much I've just. I'm a product of my environment and what I've been programmed and understanding that. Wait, what do you mean? I could change my thought process, I could change how I live, I could change how I speak and all of that. That's where I would start. As simple as understanding. That way I can rewrite my entire story. So how do I start with first? Okay. My confidence, my ability to believe that I can have a different life because I feel like where people are Stuck is they don't believe that there's a better future for them. And it's like, so how can I start to write and know and believe that there is a better future for me and I could change my current circumstances? Because a lot of the times where they're stuck is they don't believe that their current circumstances are going to be changed, but it's like, yeah, it can. So where do I start? How can I build? Which is actually what I do in my community, too, is how do I build this renewed sense of belief in myself to be able to come out of this better, stronger, happier, healthier, whatever it is? I look now at hardships as perfect. This is where my growth is going to happen. I'm going to learn new skills here. I'm going to go through all of that. Because I'm sure you know the four stages of success in life. The Valley of Despair.

[B]

Tell us. Well, I might know, but they might.

[A]

Okay, so there's four stages of life. In business, in life, relationships. Every single one, you go through four stages. Stage number one is uninformed optimism, which means I'm. I'm so excited. Life is good. This new thing, this new relationship, this new job, this new promotion, this new whatever it is. And you're so excited, and you see all the positivity of it. And then you hit informed pessimism, which is stage two. And that's like, pardon my French. Oh, shit, this is getting real. It's not as great as I thought it was. It's requiring a little bit more from me. I'm seeing the. In a relationship, I'm seeing the. The not so good qualities, whatever it is, in business, it's like, this is requiring a lot more out of me. It's demanding. It's not the same job that I thought it was. And then, boom, you hit the Valley of Despair. And Valley of Despair is where it gets freaking hard. And 99% of people in business give up at the Valley of Despair. And guess what they do. They end up back at un. At the uninformed optimism. So they're always following that shiny new object. And people do it in relationships, which is why they break up and they go find that new relationship, and then they go through constantly and not realizing that. Stage four, Valley of Despair, is where the growth happens. When it gets. When you're at the. It's like hitting rock bottom almost. It's so bad. But this is where I'm learning the emotional resilience. This is where I'm learning the patience the perseverance, everything that I need to get to stage four, which is the success. And most people get so caught up in the valley of despair that, look, this is not meant for me. This is not good for me. This is hard, all of that. And instead of saying, this is where my growth is going to happen and I need to lean in now more than ever and not look at the next shiny object and go through, then you're at 4 and you're like, oh, shit. I'm so happy that I did not give up. And that applies to every situation in life. Like I said, relationships, business, health. How many people will go to the gym for a month or two and see no difference and give up and then go get a different kind of membership or a different kind of trainer? You see it in relationships where people are breaking up or they end the marriage and think the grass is greener on the other side instead of working through it. Certain things, family, business. You know, this business idea didn't work because I've been trying so hard, and now I give up and I'm gonna go to the next shiny object or the next idea.

[B]

That's a great. I love that. I don't know why I've never heard that before.

[A]

Yeah, the Valley of Despair.

[B]

Because people do stop in the Valley of Despair all the time. They give up right there and then they start. They. They seek out number one again.

[A]

Exactly. And then they end. That's. That's where people stay stuck, is they don't allow themselves to stay in here. And sometimes maybe they're a little bit longer, but it's like, then you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and you're like, oh, now I'm seeing it. And I've gone through it so many times that sometimes I'm like, I'm in the Valley of despair right now. This fricking sucks. But I have no choice but to stay. I have no choice but to stay, because I'm not. I'm not going back to stage one. Stage two, stage three, stage one, stage two, stage three.

[B]

Right, right, right. Because you're going to always just be saying that same thing, and when you're aware of it.

[A]

So I teach people about the value of despair, because when you're aware of it and you know that you're there, you're like, do I want to go back and restart this, or do I want to just stick around here a little bit more and do what I got to do? What do I got to do to get more resilient and patience and the perseverance and prayer and whatever you got to do to get to stage four.

[B]

Well, but is there a time when like, you is, is there, is there amount of time that like, is too long to be in the valley of despair?

[A]

I mean, yes and no. It's not like it's a year's thing. And if you're there for years just because you're not leaning into the skills and what you're meant to learn there, so it's like you're allowing yourself to stay stuck versus, like a lot of people. I always like a lot of people when that's happening. They're like, they're still stuck in the victim mentality. It all ties into it to it, Jen. They're stuck in the victim mentality. This is happening me. This is happening to me versus why am I here? What do I got to learn from this? So once you lean into that. No, you're not stuck there for long because it's like, what am I learning? What am I learning? What skills?

[B]

What?

[A]

Everything. But if you're stuck in the victim mentality of like, it's never going to change. Everything always happens to me. Yeah, you're right. You're going to stay there for a very long time because you're not ready for stage four.

[B]

Talk about, like, how. What kind of people tend to like, get out of the valley of despair and get into number four, which is successful. And the ones that stay stuck, the ones with.

[A]

As you start to build that emotional resilience or even the belief system. And the belief system, it's 100%. It's a belief system and discipline over motivation that works in everything. It's like that discipline. People think that, like, you know, we talk about business. People just think like, wait, it's. Everything is so hard. I don't feel like working today. I don't feel like doing this today. Cool. Most of the time we don't either. But you're disciplined because you're seeing the, the. It's future pacing. People lack future pacing. And future pacing is so important because future pacing, which means I'm so caught up in where I'm, who I'm becoming and where I want to go that I gotta do what I gotta do now to meet that person. So people would rather stay stuck in their current circumstances instead of making decisions in their current circumstances to meet who they're becoming.

[B]

Say that again.

[A]

People make. Have to make decisions in their current circumstances based on who they're becoming versus making life decisions based on Their current circumstances.

[B]

That's such a good thing to say. Can you expand on that a little bit?

[A]

Yeah. Your current circumstances, which means, you know, I'm. I'm stuck on. Okay, I'm gonna relate it on business. I'm gonna talk about estrangement, because I think they're both very important in estrangement. It's like my current circumstances are. My mom is triggering me. My. My family's triggering me. They're upsetting me. All of that. Based on the current circumstances, my decision is I'm gonna cut them off based on future pacing is, well, no, if I have a family and I have kids and I want them to be around my grandkids or what do I got to do to fix this relationship? You're going to approach and look at it very differently, but same thing with business. In business where someone is like, you know, I'm not progressing. I have no money to invest in myself. I'm broke. My business is not moving forward. But no, it's like you're making. So you won't even invest in, I don't know, maybe $100 or a mastermind or a coach or whatever it is that you want to. To get yourself to that next level. You're making it based on your current circumstances, where if you're future pacing, you get so excited about the person that you're going, the goals that you're going towards, that you're like, no, I have to make this decision now because that's where I'm gonna go. And I need to make decisions based on who I'm becoming, not who I was or where I'm at right now.

[B]

That's a great point. Now use it for relationships.

[A]

In marriage, for example, your current circumstances are. If I were to think about my relationship with my husband, for example, he, by the way, was estranged from his mom. Not a coincidence. His mom abandoned him when he was 13 or 14 years old. She left a really bad relationship. She left the country and fast forward to now without getting to too much detail. She lives with us. We have best relationship ever. So it really helped to reconnect that relationship. But if I were to make decisions on the current circumstances. When we first met, he was so angry. He had a lot of anger. He was holding a lot of that anger. Current circumstances would be what you are not healthy. You have a lot of aggression. You're abusive in some ways. Never been abusive, but people could obviously take it at that way. It's better for me to walk away. It's better for me to Walk away. Future pacing was no, I think that we can heal through this together. I think that we can work on better communication. And as long as there's improvement in all of that, we can work through that. And I would future pace and say, no, I truly believe that. Like, I think he's a great person. We have a great relationship. We don't fight. His anger is not towards me. It's towards outside people. And I would think about that, like, I would literally visualize and almost manifest that perfect marriage. And I would make decisions on. Based on where I'm going. And guess what? That's what happened. When he reconciliated with his mom, he was no longer angry. He was always doing this. He never went to therapy. He never went to therapy. I was essentially his.

[B]

His sounding board.

[A]

Yeah, that's. And I helped him navigate the emotions because the emotional healing, I helped him navigate it, how to deal with the anger. He ended up talking with his mom and I pushed for it for four hours. He cried. She cried. She explained her perspective. He explained his pain, all of that. And then he realized, I could sit here and be justified in my pain because he absolutely is. Because she left you and you're justified in that pain. But what now, what is that gonna do for you? It's making you angry. Are you gonna hold onto that anger and that pain? Are you gonna heal through it? So then he said, okay, you know what? She didn't make the best decision, but she thought she was. And then they healed through it. And like I said, they have the best relationship now. She had best relationship with the grandkids. So it's like future pacing of like, well, what do I want the relationship to look like and what do I gotta do and how do I have to work with someone always has to lead a relationship. So in, in this instance, it's like, I'm gonna lead the relationship and I'm gonna lead by example in every relationship of how I want it to go. And that doesn't mean that it's going to work like that, like perfect for every single relationship. But the reality is, if someone is. If you see an increment of improvement, that means that there's hope. And people don't have patience. Like, they want it from A to Z versus his anger. I saw it, like, from seeing it like weekly to monthly to yearly, and I was like, okay, I'm patient. I'm going to grow that patience because I see the improvement and I'm going to be patient for you as you're trying to understand what's happening. And that's what's happening is people are lacking the compassion or the patience to allow people to grow, because people expect everyone to grow in their same timeline, which is happening with the generation right now where it's like, well, I've gone to therapy, so you should go to therapy too. Or I've done all the healing, so you should too. And if you're not, then it's on you. So I'm not going to talk to you until you're ready. And it's like, you can't put that kind of expectation on someone because your healing is now waiting on someone else's timeline.

[B]

That's such a. That was so well said.

[A]

Thank you. You're welcome.

[B]

Let's talk about a type of emotional healing that we haven't touched upon. Well, we kind of did, but not really is because I understand what you're saying about belief. Like, it all starts with belief. Belief that you can find better, do better, be better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you don't think that you're better or you can be better, that's when people really stay stuck and they have that loop. Right. That is very difficult. I only smiled when you were talking because I just came back from this thing where I did a whole speaking thing on exactly what you're saying about, like, discipline, motivation, and like, how discipline is what carries you through to that, I think, to that fourth level of success. Right. But let's talk about betrayal, because I think that's another big one where people get really stuck and it's really hard for them to move past it and move on. Right. Would you just say, how would you tell somebody, one of your patients, clients, whatever, you, you know, when in your groups, how they're. They can move past and through betrayal? Because if people feel that way, that's what also gets them sick. Right. It's like, that's. That's what we're talking about. Right, Right. That's what causes a lot of this gripe, whatever. Do you have anything to talk about or say about that?

[A]

I mean, what form of betrayal be.

[B]

It could be anything. It could be.

[A]

I mean, I don't. The reason I don't think changes anything.

[B]

It doesn't.

[A]

It doesn't change anything. Because the betrayal, it's like, okay, well, you're right. They did.

[B]

I guess. I guess your husband was betrayed by his mom.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's all.

[B]

It's all relative.

[A]

You betrayed me by cheating. That's a Whole other situation. But could you.

[B]

Can you ever heal from cheating if the.

[A]

I truly believe, yes. In certain circumstances. Right. Like, it has to really be. For what is the circumstance. Is it like, for example, I had a good friend that I grew up with who was married and found out that he was in an affair for nine years. Is that cheating? No. Well, literally, he was. He was. He had a girlfriend of nine years and they were together for. I don't know how. They were together since high school and.

[B]

Another girl from the side. Yeah, for nine years. That's cheating.

[A]

But that's not even true. That's like a lifestyle.

[B]

Yeah, that's a lifestyle. That's a lifestyle. I would say that's a betrayal.

[A]

That. It is a betrayal. That's what it means. Can you get of a hold over something like that? No, because that's not a mistake that you're going to work through. And there has to be growth, like there if. If he's fully accountable. And it's like, I'm going to do what I got to do to prove to you right.

[B]

I think that's true. That's. That's true. I think that makes a difference.

[A]

Like, I think if it's a lifestyle. No, I don't know if you can work through that because what happens is your belief system, your worthiness and everything like that is now saying, this is all that I'm worth. I'm going to stay and stick to it.

[B]

So the stuckness is the thing, right?

[A]

The stuckness, yeah.

[B]

How does someone stop the rumination and the looping of thinking about how, why all those things that get people not to move on to the next point? What do you tell your clients?

[A]

I would say let's remove everything right now. What is your purpose? Why are you here on earth? You're here just to be a wife and just to be a mother. And that's it. And that's what God put you on here. And then your kids are grown and they're on their own and your husband passes away. What. What are you here for? Like, let's think about that. Let's talk about that. Because that means that you have completely lost yourself in the circumstances of your life, and you need to find who you are before the world told you who to be, before the roles told you who to be and everything like that. So I'd really try to ground them in, like, wait, you mean that there's. Even at my. Even if I'm 60 years old, there's something more for me? I'm like, yeah, There is everyone. God has a purpose for every single person.

[B]

Right? You're. You're about it sounds. It's very much like reframing your story exactly like you say the word, right? You use the word rewrite the story or belief. It's all the same stuff though, right? Like at the end of the day, you got to like find a way to believe that there's some. There's a purpose behind whatever circumstance that I'm going through.

[A]

Every hardship, I'm going through everything. The amount of parents, moms especially, that have been like. And I take them back to it, they're like, you're right. I was so stuck in my estrangement that I have found God again. I have started to live for me again. And everything during that time that I'm a better person. I said perfect. Now you're in a place where your child can't come back. It's like you had to find yourself through that. So it's like you could stay stuck and like, I'm the victim. Look what my child did to me and all of that. Or I gotta become a better person. What am I gonna do? What is my purpose? What am I meant here for? And so that's what it comes down to. It's. Yeah, reframing, Rewriting your story, your circumstances, and knowing that there's. For me, I believe that there's a higher power at play here. And sometimes they have to break you in order to rebuild you. And that's it. You have to be okay. People are so scared to being broken that they'd rather stay stuck. Not realizing that staying stuck is already almost gonna start breaking you.

[B]

Right. That's a great point. All right, so let me ask you something. Let's talk. I like this whole belief thing. Cause I talk about that a lot on the show and my whole platform. Whatever. Self belief, self efficacy, confidence. In your opinion, what would you say would be one of the keystone habits that someone can start doing to start building their own belief in themselves, their own confidence, their own feeling that they deserve more. Should. Should basically believe in themselves.

[A]

I think the number one thing that they could do is start to. And I know it might sound a little bit cliche, but start like real life affirmations and start reprogramming your neural pathways. That's the number one thing. Because when you reprogram your neural pathways, it actually changes your belief system. Like from. From a scientific physiological level, your belief system starts to change, which means if you say something enough times, your body and mind start to believe.

[B]

It.

[A]

So it's like, what do I tell myself? But when I say, like, affirmations, I don't mean, like, I'm gonna make a million dollars. I'm gonna make a million dollars in a year. I mean, like, I'm a strong, independent, confident woman. It's like you look at yourself in the mirror, which has everything to do with mirror work, and you look at yourself and you say that, which is awkward at first. And it's like, I. Independent, confident woman. What happens is your body, your nervous system at first is kind of like, wait, what's happening? What's happening? Because this is so different. My neural pathways are going crazy because they're not used to it. And. And I'm going to explain this a little bit. It could be a little bit scientific, but once someone understands it, they're like, okay, that's what's happening. There's. There's. There's a sheath. I don't know how much you know about it, but there's a sheath on your neural pathway that's called myelin. Right? And that myelin is pretty much what strengthens the crap out of those neural pathways. And when you start to change it, the myelin starts to weaken, and new neural pathways are. Are formed. And then the myelin tries to go to those new neural pathways. So it's like, if you repeat this enough times, what happens is your body starts reacting from that nervous system and that resistance, which is so normal when you're doing it at first and starts getting used to it, it starts getting used to it. When it starts to get used to it, what does it do? It starts looking around its environment to build that bleed. Whatever you're saying, your body is naturally now looking to find something that's going to build that independent, confident, strong woman, whatever it is that you're telling yourself. So then you start to do things differently. You look for opportunities differently, and it starts to actually change your entire belief system.

[B]

So, okay, I'm going to say two things to that. Number one, I do believe in the concept that you will start seeing things around you, whatever you are thinking and believing 100%. Like, if you're saying things like, you know, red car. You know, red car. I want to see a red car. You bought a red car.

[A]

You notice every red car.

[B]

You see every red car, right? Or like, you know, brown. I'm gonna see everything brown. I do believe that 100. But here's where I'm gonna push back on you a bit, because I like, I believe, and my research has Shown me that if you say a thousand times in a mirror, I'm beautiful, I'm confident, I'm wonderful, whatever that is, I'm independent. But if you actually don't believe it, your brain knows that you're lying. Right. And if you're somebody who has a low self esteem, it has the opposite effect. Right.

[A]

So when you're saying the words, the resistance at first is very normal. Though it's not that you don't believe it. It's. It's, it's more resistance. Like is it true? Is it true? And so you can reword it. So it's like I wouldn't say I'm beautiful. If you don't believe you're beautiful. It could say I'm capable of being. Right. So changing your words of I'm capable of being a beautiful confident woman, I'm capable. You tell yourself that it's normal to have resistance. You're gonna have resistance. But then when you say I'm capable, you start to, it does start to reprogram you essentially. But it doesn't mean that you can't take action.

[B]

Well that's the thing.

[A]

And it needs action.

[B]

I'm not a believer in just affirmations for this.

[A]

100 if you don't meet it with actions, then that's it. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well I just find it to be like a, such a, like such a silly thing. Like okay, I'm independent. I'm strong. Really. Are you independent? Like what are you doing to be independent? Are you strong? You look feeble to me. You don't act very strong.

[A]

You're right. You have to meet it with action.

[B]

Like that. So yeah, I, I think like the best way to actually do an affirmation more than anything is to prove to yourself that you're capable and competent.

[A]

100 so when I say affirmations, it's like that's what it starts. And then you have to meet it with action. There's a term in that I was taught growing up. It's a, it's an Arabic term. It's called Tawakkil. And I love when I really understood this. It changed. I've been practicing manifestation for years. But I always felt like there was a disconnect. And the reason being is because Tawakkal is essentially manifestation built with trust in action. So a lot of times when we talk about affirmation or manifestation, it's like we're made to believe that if you just say it enough times, then it's just going to happen. But I don't have to do anything. No to what, kid? When I was taught this is, you have to do everything within your power to meet that place and then you leave the rest. You trust the rest of God.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

You don't stress about it, you don't worry about it. How's it going to happen, what's going to happen, all of that stuff. And that ties into. When you're talking about affirmations, manifestation, it's like, you're right, I'm, I'm capable of being a strong, independent, confident woman. And you keep repeating yourself, but you have to meet it with the action. What's something that I do? What's one step that I can do to work towards being a stronger, independent, confident woman or whatever it is that you're working towards? You have to meet it with actions. You cannot just sit there and not do anything because then it's just, it's, it's empty promises to yourself, essentially.

[B]

Right. And also it's like, well, what are you doing to prove that you actually are these things? Yeah.

[A]

Which has everything to do with the progression that you need to be growing as a person in order to be a healthier, happier, more successful person.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm still on this Oprah thing. I think it's, I think it's fascinating. Right, because she's still, by the way, they're still doing. It's still very popular. Right. But you're saying that the older people, like 60 year olds are your biggest. Not. They're, they're reaching out to you more than anybody. Right.

[A]

Their children have.

[B]

Because their children. So how does, okay, so like, do you see the pendulum swinging the other way eventually or, or. No. Have you seen it just getting more progressively worse right now?

[A]

I feel like it's around the peak of being the worst or in, in that stage of being the worst. I do believe, like anything else that ends up being cyclical, where our children's generation are going to start seeing that there's lacking so much emotional intelligence in that, this consciousness and everything that I feel like it's going to break. It's like it's not going to last. It's not going to. It's not sustainable. So I do feel like that can happen. Is it going to happen in the next five, 10 years? I don't know. It could be a decade.

[B]

Well, how.

[A]

Before they see it?

[B]

What do you think the impact of social media? Would it even.

[A]

Oh, it has everything to do with it, especially for the younger generations. Everything. Because exactly like you said, everything that you're seeing on your algorithm is what.

[B]

Is, is, is feeding this culture.

[A]

So it's validating their feelings. And as long as their feelings are validated, their feelings are right. And they stay stuck in those feelings versus working through that.

[B]

Well, it's all. But let's just talk one more thing and then we can like wrap. Because we are the validation of feelings. Right. In leadership and business. Right. Because they're saying something to be. So for someone to be a good leader is that they need to validate and they need to allow people to have their feelings felt, meant. Whatever. What, what have you seen with your. In that have. Do you see a lot of people in this? When you, in your, in your clientele, do you see mostly women? Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Do you see women in business? You see women more like what's the main struggle? Are they seeing mostly like where. Where do they come to you with. Where are they getting stuck? How has it like affected their lives the most?

[A]

I think the biggest thing that I see is they have no idea where it came from. So then that's what I'm telling them. When we're talking about. Exactly. We're talking about today. When you think about the therapies and the, in the TVs and the shows and the conditioning and the social media, they don't know. They haven't made that correlation. So they had no idea. When you think about the college and all of this, right. Like the, the, the wokeism, there's just so many factors in where it's like they didn't recognize how much the, the identity formation was forming their way of thinking that they're like okay, now, now I can actually see where it started. Now I can see exactly what happened.

[B]

I love, I, I really love your stuff. I think it's very interesting to me. I'm fascinated by it. Where do people find more about you and like dive deeper if they're curious?

[A]

Tanya Cazale My website, social media, I really dive into it and in the programs and social media content I post multiple times every day, just trying to.

[B]

Multiple times a day? Yeah. What's, what's. Which content does it best for you? What like when you, when you post about what exact topic the content that.

[A]

Probably does the best is when I say it's my. It's our parents first life too. They're also human.

[B]

So people do you. Are you finding now people?

[A]

Yeah, like I, I have, I have children who have messaged and said, you completely shifted my way of thinking. I have so much more compassion for my parents. Like, thank you for that, really. And then I have the parents being like, I took your advice. And my child, like, all the time, Jen. Like, my child of six years, we're now going for lunch next week. All the time. Like, I haven't seen my. I've never met my grandchild. Yesterday. Yesterday, with my sister, I took a screenshot and I cried on Rodeo Drive. I'm not kidding. I cried. And I saw her email, and she said, I've never met my grandson. Thanks to you, I've just met my grandson. And this is that. And she shared a picture. Like, those are the things that I literally live for. Because, like I said, I do believe that the devil's at work here. I think it's a spiritual war to an extent, because it's when you destruct the family unit, like, he loves it more than murder or stealing everything like that. Because when you break that, you break generations to come. And so for me, that's. I live for that. And to see that where it's like, people are. Even if they're not estranged, they're now aware of the societal conditioning and how they're raising their child, how they're going to approach it, how they're okay with the tough love and learning, communication, that's more important now than ever.

[B]

I love that. Okay. By the way, we never did this shot. We do this, like, performance shot on this podcast called Magic Mind. And I got so excited to talk to you, I, like, forgot about it.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

So we shake it. And by the way, do you have another podcast after? Because it can help you be super focused for them. Not for me, I don't today, apparently, like, for. I missed that moment. But. But, you know. So we shake it. I ever had, like, a couplery today. This one has no caffeine, by the way. Okay, ready? Cheers.

[A]

Cheers.

[B]

It's good, right?

[A]

That's very good.

[B]

I know. Oh, you're having one, too. They're delicious. I've never. I don't really drink the caffeine that.

[A]

The lion's mane. Bacopa, right?

[B]

You're herbalist, right?

[A]

Rodeo.

[B]

Tell me what you think of the ingredients.

[A]

Lion's Man's. Incredible. Because it's. I'm sure you know this.

[B]

It's a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me.

[A]

Rhodiola is an adaptogen. Cordyceps. Another mushroom. Ashwagandha. Ltheanine. Turmeric. The vitamins which gives you energy, which is the vitamin B1.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three is where the energy is coming in from.

[B]

I forgot. She's also a herbalist, ladies and gentlemen.

[A]

And I can't read the last one. I'm sorry.

[B]

I'm blind, by the way. Don't ask me.

[A]

I have no idea. What's the last one.

[B]

Just one second, guys. I'm gonna let you guys off. Okay? Bye.

[A]

Sam.