Episode 410: Robert Greene: Are Great Observers Born or Made? The Nature vs Nurture of Empathy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle - Episode 410: Robert Greene: Are Great Observers Born or Made? The Nature vs Nurture of Empathy

Release Date: December 27, 2024
Host/Author: Jen Cohen and Habit Nest
Guest: Robert Greene

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Introduction

In Episode 410 of the Habits and Hustle podcast, host Jen Cohen engages in a profound conversation with bestselling author Robert Greene. The discussion delves into the intricate dynamics of empathy, exploring whether great observational skills and deep empathy are innate traits or can be cultivated through deliberate practice. This episode offers listeners valuable insights into understanding themselves and others better, enhancing both personal and professional relationships.

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Nature vs. Nurture: The Origins of Empathy

The episode opens with Jen Cohen posing a fundamental question: "Are great observers born or made?" This inquiry sets the stage for a deep dive into the age-old debate of nature versus nurture concerning empathy and observational skills.

Robert Greene responds by acknowledging the complexity of the question. At [01:15], he states:

"Women are more naturally empathetic than men. Is there something about the way women's brains are wired, or is it from the fact that women are socialized to be more attentive to the needs of other people?"

Greene highlights that both biological predispositions and social conditioning play roles in shaping empathy. He emphasizes that while some individuals might have a natural inclination towards empathy, environmental factors and upbringing significantly influence its development.

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The Role of Upbringing and Observational Skills

Greene shares personal anecdotes about his upbringing, revealing how early experiences can mold one's ability to observe and empathize. At [01:15], he explains:

"My way of surviving in this world was to observe people. You know, that was the only way I could feel secure... So I had to turn myself into a very keen observer."

This self-awareness emerged from a need for protection and understanding in his formative years. Greene underscores that his propensity for observation was not merely an innate trait but a skill honed out of necessity. He encourages listeners to recognize that observational abilities can be developed, regardless of one's starting point.

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Theory of Mind and Human Capacity for Empathy

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the concept of Theory of Mind—the ability to attribute mental states to oneself and others. Greene explains at [02:30]:

"Humans have these innate, incredible powers. They call it theory of mind, the ability that we can put ourselves in the shoes of another person and imagine what they're thinking."

He points out that even infants demonstrate this capability, suggesting that the foundation for empathy is deeply rooted in human psychology. Greene differentiates humans from other animals, noting that no other species exhibits such a sophisticated level of empathetic understanding, with the possible exception of dolphins to some extent.

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Learning to Observe and Enhancing Self-Awareness

Transitioning from innate abilities to learned skills, Greene emphasizes the importance of deliberate practice in enhancing observational skills. At [04:09], Jen Cohen remarks:

"I mean, I guess what I was saying, that had a natural inclination and interest... But I tend to agree, is that anything you put attention to you can get better at."

Greene concurs, illustrating that passion and interest are crucial for mastering any skill, including empathy. He advocates for engaging in social situations, minimizing distractions like smartphones, and practicing observational exercises to sharpen one's ability to read and understand others effectively.

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The Importance of Self-Observation and Recognizing Behavioral Patterns

A pivotal segment of the conversation centers on self-awareness. Greene asserts at [05:10]:

"You need to become a superior observer of other people. But it begins by being able to observe yourself."

He explains that self-observation is the foundation for understanding why individuals act the way they do. Greene highlights that a significant portion of human behavior is unconscious, influencing everything from purchasing decisions to relationship choices without conscious awareness.

For instance, he mentions:

"Why did I buy an Audi when I could have bought 20 different other cars? It was influenced by all these unconscious factors."

By recognizing these patterns, individuals can begin to break negative cycles and make more informed, deliberate choices in various aspects of their lives.

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Overcoming the Fear of Self-Examination

Greene touches upon the daunting realization that much of our behavior is governed by unconscious processes. He compares this to operating in a dark room, where one is unaware of the obstacles and unaware why certain actions are taken.

At [08:50], he challenges listeners to confront this:

"Look in the mirror and say, I don't really know who I am. I don't know why I make choices."

This candid admission, though frightening, is presented as the first step towards genuine self-improvement. Greene likens it to the transformative process found in programs like Alcoholics Anonymous, where acknowledging one's lack of self-understanding is crucial for growth.

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Practical Steps to Develop Empathy and Self-Awareness

The episode concludes with actionable advice for listeners aspiring to enhance their empathetic abilities and self-awareness:

1. Engage in Social Situations: Actively participate in environments where you can observe diverse behaviors and interactions.

2. Minimize Distractions: Limit smartphone usage to foster genuine connections and attentive observations.

3. Practice Observational Exercises: Utilize techniques from Greene's book to methodically improve your ability to read body language and emotional cues.

4. Pause and Reflect: As Jen Cohen suggests at [09:03], take moments to ask yourself, "Why am I doing what I'm doing?" This practice retrains the brain to think more consciously about actions and decisions.

5. Embrace Self-Examination: Confront the uncomfortable truth that much of your behavior is unconscious. Use this awareness as motivation to delve deeper into understanding your motivations and patterns.

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Notable Quotes

• Robert Greene at [01:15]:
  "I had to turn myself into a very keen observer."

• Jen Cohen at [04:09]:
  "Anything you put attention to you can get better at."

• Robert Greene at [05:10]:
  "You need to become a superior observer of other people. But it begins by being able to observe yourself."

• Jen Cohen at [09:03]:
  "Take a pause and say, why am I doing what I'm doing?"

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Conclusion

Episode 410 of Habits and Hustle provides a compelling exploration of empathy's origins and the pathways to cultivating it. Robert Greene's insights, enriched by personal experiences and psychological principles, offer listeners a roadmap to becoming more empathetic and self-aware individuals. By embracing both innate capacities and deliberate practices, anyone can enhance their ability to understand and connect with others, ultimately leading to a more fulfilled and balanced life.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

[B]

You're listening to Habits and Hustle.

[A]

Crush it. Hey, friends, you're listening to Fitness Friday on the Habits and Hustle podcast where myself and my friends share quick and very actionable advice for you becoming your healthiest self. So stay tuned and let me know how you leveled up. Do you think that there are people who are just maybe. You said you were always really good at giving advice. There are people that are more innately just more tuned in and keyed into to that type of thing. Like, I mean, there are people who are good to talk to because they're much more self aware and they're much more empathetic. And so there is that element, like you naturally, obviously were that one of those people that. It kind of. You came by it honestly, so to speak. Right.

[B]

Well, it's a good question of is it nature or nurture? So is it something that. Is your brain wired that way? There's probably an element to it. So for instance, it's a known fact through studies. Excuse me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That women are more naturally empathetic than men. Is there something about the way their brain, the way women's brains are wired, or is it from the fact that women, women are socialized to be more attentive to the needs of other people? How do you answer that question? I think probably from my upbringing, from the relationship to my parents, where I wasn't neglected, but I was sort of left alone. And so my way of surviving in this world was to observe people. You know, that was the only way I could feel secure was to understand what. So that I wouldn't get hurt, that I wouldn't. My parents weren't abusive at all. They were very kind, but. But, you know, I wasn't getting the attention that I thought I needed. So I had to turn myself into a very keen observer. And my sister is like that as well. So there's something in I think the way we were raised that turned us this way. But you know, I wouldn't write these books if I don't believe that's something you can learn, you know, so because I'm interested in other people, probably for means of protection and defense. So maybe started from something maybe slightly negative. I spent many years observing. Right. And when you observe and you spend years doing it, it becomes a skill. It's like I can sense people's energy really quickly now. You know, I have a feel for, for who they are. I can tell from their body things you can't even verbalize because I've Been doing it for so long. So my point in the book is, you know, you may be 30 years old or 40, you know, it's never too late to start because a human being has these innate, incredible, innate powers. They call it theory of mind, the ability that we can put ourselves in the shoes of another person and imagine what they're thinking. And they've demonstrated that. Infants at the age of 6 months old demonstrate that they have this theory of mind. No other animal comes close to that though. They say maybe dolphins at some point, but so you have that. You, the listener out there, you have that potential. You have those built in tools to use. It's just a matter of using them. So getting out in more social situations, getting away from your stupid phone and going out in public and dealing with people and looking at them and observing them and going through exercises that I have in the book, slowly you'll get better at it. And it's actually a lot of fun. You know, you spend $20 to go to a movie to get inside the world of somebody else. And it's so exciting. Oh, the psych, the psycho killer, blah blah, blah, blah blah. Other people in your daily life have their stories, have their myths, have their own fantasies. It's just as exciting to try and get into their world as it is to get inside Silence of the Lambs or whatever movie you want to watch. So you, everybody, it's something you can learn. It's not just you're either born that way or you're doomed to, to not having this power.

[A]

Right. I mean, I guess what I was saying, that had a natural inclination and interest, right? So it starts with a kernel of interest and curiosity and maybe, and maybe you, you were naturally better at it than some. But I think what you're saying, and I tend to agree, is that anything you put attention to you can get better at, right? But it's being, putting attention towards it and practicing it over and over again. And you were saying kind of like, I mean your, your whole book about. Well, not the whole book, but a lot of what your book talks about. There are few, there's a few different things. But is Matt like being self aware, right. Understanding where, where you came from? Because where you came from it's going to be a good, it's a good point to know why you are the way you are and having that hyper self awareness. How does someone who doesn't have that natural inclination gain self awareness?

[B]

Well, you have to read the book.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

That's the main point of the Whole book. So you. You need to become a superior observer of other people. But it begins by being able to observe yourself. So, you know, it's. It's a process. There's no, like, quick answer to that. So the first thing is I try to show you certain things that you need to be aware of, that. I think one of the points in my book, particularly in mastery, is people don't become good at something unless they like it. And it's very much demonstrated in neuroscience. When the brain is engaged and excited, suddenly we learn at a much faster rate. Right. If you're interested in learning French, you'll learn it really quickly as opposed to someone who's forced to learn it. It could take years. So if you want to, if you're motivated to observe people, to look at yourself, then you will start to do it. And so how do you get motivated? Well, I try to make the point in the book that the number one thing to understand is you are a stranger to yourself. You do not know who you are. You don't know why you act the way you do. You have no idea what motivates your behavior, why you choose this partner to be with, why you're interested in this product, why you choose this person to be a politician you vote for. You don't know, because 95% of what we do comes from unconscious processes. So if you think about that, it's kind of slightly frightening. So why did I. This is a very banal example. Why did I buy an Audi when I could have bought 20 different other cars? Well, if I think about it, you know, it probably has to do with the fact of I don't see myself as somebody who buys a Mercedes, but probably I've looked at ads that have influenced me. I've seen other people. It wasn't like me consciously deciding, this is the car I want. It was influenced by all these unconscious factors. And people who do marketing, they know this very well that what makes you choose to buy a product is emotional reasons that you're not even aware of. They know all of these unconscious tricks to make you interested in their product. So you walk around, you're like a sleepwalker. You don't know why you make the decisions you make. And a very good example is the people you choose for intimate partners in your life. You can't really explain or verbalize why you're attracted to a person. And oftentimes, if you pay close attention, you notice that there'll be certain patterns in people you choose. And sometimes these patterns aren't very Healthy? Not necessarily always. Sometimes. Why? Why am I attracted this person who's sort of a narcissist and isn't going to be a great person to have a relationship? And then the second person I choose is exactly the same, even though I was hurt by the first person. What's going on? I'm challenging you to look at yourself and say, look in the mirror and say, I don't really know who I am. I don't know why I make choices, why I followed this career path, et cetera. So if you're like in a dark room, it's kind of scary. You're groping, you're tripping over things. Well, you're operating in a dark room, you don't know why you're doing things, you're groping around and you're making mistakes. So you have to be motivated to try and look at yourself and understand who you are by virtue of the fact that your ignorance of who you are is causing negative patterns in your life. We all want to improve ourselves. That's why we go to self help books. That's why you read my book. But you're never going to improve yourself unless you understand who you are. Unless you look squarely in the eye and admit your flaws, admit the bad patterns in your life. So it's almost like, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous, you have to get down on your knees and admit, I don't know who I am. And because that's a frightening thought I have, I'm now motivated to try and make the steps to understand.

[A]

Right. That's why I think the first step is that you said, like ask yourself the question, like take a pause and say, why am I doing what I'm doing? What is the reason behind this? Like that initial. I think that, that even that initial moment of, or that second of pause makes you maybe retrained your brain to think a little bit. Right?

[B]

Definitely.