Episode 419: Vanessa Van Edwards: The Power of Body Language and Charisma for Effective Communication

Summary

Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle
Episode 419: Vanessa Van Edwards: The Power of Body Language and Charisma for Effective Communication
Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 419 of Habits and Hustle, host Jennifer Cohen engages in an insightful conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards, a renowned behavioral investigator and author. Vanessa delves into the intricacies of body language, charisma, and effective communication, sharing science-based strategies to enhance interpersonal interactions in both personal and professional settings.

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1. Understanding Charisma: The Balance of Warmth and Competence

Vanessa introduces the foundational concept that charisma stems from a harmonious blend of two key traits: warmth and competence. She emphasizes that 82% of our judgments about others are based on these two characteristics.

• Warmth includes traits like friendliness, likability, and openness.
• Competence encompasses being capable, efficient, and powerful.

Notable Quote:

Vanessa Van Edwards [10:08]: "82% of our judgments of people are based on those two traits, which is shocking to me."

Vanessa explains that being overly warm without demonstrating competence can lead to being perceived as untrustworthy or not taken seriously. Conversely, displaying high competence without warmth can make individuals seem intimidating or unapproachable.

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2. Practical Applications in Various Settings

a. Video Conferencing Etiquette

With the rise of virtual meetings, Vanessa highlights the importance of body language even in digital interactions. She outlines strategies to optimize nonverbal cues during video calls:

• Distance from the Camera: Maintain a distance that respects personal space. Intimate Zone (<18 inches) can be intrusive, while the Personal Zone (18 inches to 5 feet) is ideal for professional interactions.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [24:25]: "The four zones are the public zone, the social zone, the personal zone, and the intimate zone."

• Use of Oxytocin Words: Incorporate phrases that build rapport, such as "It's so good to see you" or "Sending a virtual high five."

• Lighting and Background: Ensure good lighting and a professional background to convey competence and approachability.

b. Gestures and Vocal Cues

Vanessa underscores the significance of gestures and vocal tones in communication:

• Gestures: Effective use of hand movements can reinforce spoken words, making messages clearer and more impactful.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [40:07]: "Gesture isn't just extra; it's critically important to our comprehension."

• Vocal Power: Lower tones are often perceived as more confident. Smiling while speaking can enhance vocal warmth, making interactions more engaging.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [50:16]: "Warmth comes from vocal warmth. Smiling changes the sound of our voice."

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3. The Science of Popularity and Relationship Building

Vanessa explores how personality traits influence popularity and relationship dynamics:

• Popularity Among Teens: Research indicates that popular individuals often have extensive networks and proactively engage others with warmth and openness, rather than relying solely on physical attractiveness or athleticism.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [75:30]: "The most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked."

• Personality Matrix (OCEAN Model): Understanding traits such as Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism can predict compatibility in personal and professional relationships.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [67:01]: "The big five has been replicated over and over again. It's like the standard in the academic community for personality."

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4. Detecting Deception Through Nonverbal Cues

Addressing the ability to spot liars, Vanessa shares research findings on nonverbal indicators of deception:

• Vocal Cues: Liars often end their sentences with an upward intonation as if asking a question, signaling uncertainty.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [79:27]: "Liars typically on the lying statement, they asked it. So instead of saying the statement, they went up at the end of their sentence like they were asking a question."

• Physical Gestures: Lip pursing is identified as a universal sign of withholding information, commonly observed when individuals are deceitful.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [81:02]: "Lip pursing is a universal withholding cue."

Vanessa cautions against relying on myths, such as the belief that gaze direction indicates lying, emphasizing the need for a combination of cues rather than single indicators.

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5. Enhancing Communication Through Emails and Texts

In the digital age, Vanessa addresses the challenge of conveying warmth and competence through written communication:

• Balancing Warmth and Competence: Incorporate warm words (e.g., "excited," "happy") and competent words (e.g., "achieve," "success") to create engaging and effective messages.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [59:27]: "We counted the number of warm words, and we count the number of competent words. We can almost exactly predict where someone was on the charisma scale based on the kind of words they use."

• Personalizing Messages: Use unique greetings and express genuine interest to stand out and foster connection.

  Example:
  Instead of writing, "Are we still on for tonight?" opt for a more engaging approach like, "Howdy! So excited for tonight. Still looking good?"

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6. Overcoming Communication Barriers

Vanessa provides strategies to manage and improve communication dynamics:

• Handling Interruptions: Utilize non-aggressive cues such as slightly opening the mouth or using hand gestures to politely interject and reclaim the conversation.

  Notable Quote:

  Vanessa [83:09]: "If you are interrupted and want someone to stop talking, open your mouth slightly. That's a universal cue to indicate you wish to speak."

• Avoiding Under Signaling: Encourage consistent and clear communication to prevent misunderstandings and build trust.

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Conclusion

Vanessa Van Edwards imparts a wealth of knowledge on leveraging body language and charisma to enhance communication. By balancing warmth and competence, utilizing effective nonverbal and vocal cues, and understanding personality dynamics, individuals can significantly improve their interpersonal interactions. Vanessa's insights not only empower listeners to communicate more effectively but also to build stronger, more authentic relationships both personally and professionally.

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Additional Resources

• Books by Vanessa Van Edwards:

  • Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People
  • Cues: Master the Secret Messaging System of Charismatic Communication

• Website: scienceofpeople.com

• YouTube Channel: Science of People

• Charisma Diagnostic: charismadic.com

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Vanessa Van Edwards [10:08]: "82% of our judgments of people are based on those two traits, which is shocking to me."
2. Vanessa [24:25]: "The four zones are the public zone, the social zone, the personal zone, and the intimate zone."
3. Vanessa [40:07]: "Gesture isn't just extra; it's critically important to our comprehension."
4. Vanessa [50:16]: "Warmth comes from vocal warmth. Smiling changes the sound of our voice."
5. Vanessa [75:30]: "The most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked."
6. Vanessa [67:01]: "The big five has been replicated over and over again. It's like the standard in the academic community for personality."
7. Vanessa [79:27]: "Liars typically on the lying statement, they asked it. So instead of saying the statement, they went up at the end of their sentence like they were asking a question."
8. Vanessa [81:02]: "Lip pursing is a universal withholding cue."
9. Vanessa [59:27]: "We counted the number of warm words, and we count the number of competent words. We can almost exactly predict where someone was on the charisma scale based on the kind of words they use."
10. Vanessa [83:09]: "If you are interrupted and want someone to stop talking, open your mouth slightly. That's a universal cue to indicate you wish to speak."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from Episode 419 of Habits and Hustle, providing valuable takeaways for enhancing effective communication through body language and charisma.

Transcript

[A]

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

[B]

Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therassage. Their tri light panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach, cramps, shoulder, ankle, Red light therapy is my go to. Plus it also has amazing anti aging benefits including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therassage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable and it's really effective. Head over to therassage.com right now and use code be bold for 15% off. This code will work site wide. Again. Head over to Therasodh E R A s a g e.com and use code be bold for 15% off any of their products. Guys, I'm so excited about this podcast. Today we had Vanessa Van Edwards, who I'm a huge fan of Vanessa. I've been watching Vanessa's videos on YouTube forever. She is a behavioral investigator and she started a company called the Science of People. She's also a major bestselling author. Her first book is called Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People. She's also a body language trainer and she specializes in science based people people skills. Her latest book is called Cues, which was amazing and it is for anybody and everyone who wants to either read other people or really activate their strengths and make sure they're bringing them forward. She talks about what makes somebody charismatic, what makes somebody likable. How do you win over anybody or influence somebody just by how you move what you say, like how you say it. It's just I can go on and on, but I don't want to. I'm basically like butchering this. But trust me, listen to the podcast. You're going to get so much out of it. Enjoy. On today's episode, we have Vanessa Van Edwards, who I was, I am like, just like, just smiling from, like, from, like I'm grinning from ear to ear because you guys, I have been waiting for this interview for, for months. Her information is so amazing. She wrote a book called Cues. Her other book was called Captivate.

[A]

I like the C words. Yeah, you really do confidence, charisma cues captivate.

[B]

Why is that?

[A]

I don't know. Just such. So good. Such good words.

[B]

They are good words. And you can talk. We could talk all about that. You're like, she is an expert on body language, on. On communication. And this new book is called Master the Secret. Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. She talks all about signals and how to have the most impact in meetings and first impressions. It doesn't matter if you're just someone who's dating or if you are someone who is a professional. You can literally glean anything and everything from your work. So you.

[A]

Oh, my goodness, I'm so happy to be here. I've been waiting for months, too. So, like, I can't wait.

[B]

You're just saying that.

[A]

I cleared my day. I was like, it's Jennifer day.

[B]

Look how good you are. Look how good you are.

[A]

This is my day. See?

[B]

You know how to make a great first impression.

[A]

I better.

[B]

I wrote a book about it. More than one book. And you. You crush these. These books crush.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

No, like I said, practical information.

[A]

I. I think that what's really helpful is a lot of the communication books. I'm an awkward person, right? Like, I'm somewhere in between introvert and extrovert. I'm an ambivert. And so many of the books that I read growing up or guides I saw were written by extroverts. And I just felt so, like, I had to pretend to be outgoing to make a good first impression. And so for so long, I felt like I was faking it till I make it. Make it. Made it, made it. I didn't made it.

[B]

So fake it till you.

[A]

Till I almost made it. You know, I was, like, pretending to be something I wasn't, and it was exhausting. And so I so appreciate you saying that about the books, because the books are the guides that I wish I had had. Very practical. A little funny. Like, sometimes I just. I try a few jokes on there. And also, like, what's the science say? Like, not someone's opinion, but what's the science actually say?

[B]

I should say. So what. What Vanessa's title is. It's called. She's called a behavioral investigator.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And she just studies people's behavior and also helps people with how to cue better to get what they want.

[A]

Right? Yes.

[B]

And I heard on a couple interviews you were kind of nervous about even putting the book out because it could be used as manipulation.

[A]

Yes. So, like, there's this hidden language that's happening. We don't Realize it's happening, but we are constantly sending signals back and forth. And so as I realized, I have a very weird problem where I misinterpret neutral cues as negative. And there's actually research behind this that some say that if you're neurotic, I'm high in neuroticism, which is one of the high personality traits. So I worry as a hobby, you know, like, I'm. It's like one of my sports. Like, I love to worry. And so because of that, I had this lens, this negative lens that I was missing all these cues. And so when I first started writing about them, it was just, let me catalog the cues that are being sent to me. So I stopped misinterpreting them. So I stopped. Every time I would leave a party, I would turn to my husband and be like, she's mad at me. He'd be like, she what? I'm like, she. She's so mad at me. He's like, no, she's not mad at you. I'm like, did you see the way that she looked at me? He's like, no. And so I realized I had to create some sort of a glossary for myself to stop seeing people in that way. The problem is other people will use that. That information negatively. And so I was so scared that when I put the book out that people would say, oh, I'm going to manipulate people with these cues. And unfortunately, very powerful. Like, they can use them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that made me very nervous. But I thought, you know what? I'd rather have the information out there to be used for good. And hopefully then we can have a common language where we can say, that's the cue that you're sending. And I either like it or I don't.

[B]

Well, think about, like, Robert Green's 48. 48 laws of power, right? It could be. It can kind of be considered the same kind of thing, right? Like, how to get power over people. There could be a negative connotation to it. But I actually think, you know, and I'm close friends with Robert, and I love that book.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

It's a huge monster book. Right? And it could be used for good and for bad.

[A]

Okay, fun fact. This is a really creepy, weird fact.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But, you know the classic book, how to Win Friends and Influence People? Dale Carnegie.

[B]

Dale Carnegie.

[A]

So that book has helped millions of people, right? Like, people still read it. I read it when I was a teenager.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

Fun fact is that Charles Manson read that book in prison and used it to build his cult later.

[B]

No way.

[A]

In one of his early prison stints before he did the really bad stuff, because he did little bad stuff, he read that book and he took a class that was being offered in prisons on the Dale Carnegie method for how to win presidential people. And that is exactly what he used to build his cult leader. So, wow. These things really, if you know how people work. And that's really what it is, is there's these hidden dynamics of people. And there are laws, right? There's 48 laws of power. There are 96 behavior cues. If you learn what they are, you can use them in any way that you wish.

[B]

Absolutely. And then that. And that's why I'm fascinated by all this information.

[A]

I love it so much.

[B]

I'm fascinated by. By human behavior in general, like why people do what they do and how. And also like why. Why I. Why I'm doing, how I. Why what I'm doing and how it could be misinterpreted, you know, And a lot of times I misinterpreted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that's why, for me, I found that book, this book, very to your point, very resonated. Because people can think I'm very. I'm being a bitchy, I'm being hard and being cold and being this. But it's just what I'm doing. Right. Like, so.

[A]

Oh, so it's interesting. So I have the problem where I think I misinterpret cues being sent to me. Do you worry that people misinterpret the cues you are sending to them?

[B]

I don't worry about it. I just think I don't really care much. But I don't care if people think. I don't care what people think. I don't really care.

[A]

I'm just being honest for you. That's the truth.

[B]

I think that's a whole other problem. Maybe I'm a sociopath now. I. That's not really what it is. I feel like I'm sometimes very direct and very to the point. And I don't. I don't like to mince a lot of words a lot of times. And that can be sometimes seen as so.

[A]

So the way that we break it down, which is like, I think this is the most important thing, which, you know, I love, is we think of people as two basic traits. Warm and competent. And so if you're direct, if you speak right to the point, if you have really direct nonverbal cues, so lots of eye contact, lots of head movement, very clear gestures, people see you as highly competent. That's great. The problem is, is competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious or leaves people feeling intimidated. That is directly from the research. The people who are off the charts in competence, people go, ah, there's not enough warmth. I don't know if they like me. I don't know if they're friendly. And so without warmth, people don't always believe your competence or they can't digest your competence. And so you're right in the that sense of like, am I being too direct? Is that going to turn someone off? It's simply because you're just lacking the warmth. It's like a lubricant that warmth lubricant is a lubricant for competence.

[B]

Well, that's interesting because. And not to make. This is not about me. This is.

[A]

Oh, I make it about you.

[B]

No, it's not about it because I mean that the other thing, a lot of times and I think let's. I want to first talk about. I'll bring this up in a second. I'm going to hold my thought. Okay, I want you to first let's talk about charisma, because charisma is a combination, right, of you said warmth and confidence and having that perfect blend.

[A]

Perfect blend. And so 82%, that is a massive number. 82% of our judgments of people are based on those two traits, which is shocking to me because when you ask, and I've asked audiences, how do you want to come across? Name your perfect first impression. Hundreds of words. Outgoing, funny, smart, witty, impressive, memorable. All the words you could think of. But actually, when it comes down to it, the only two words that make up 82% of our judgments are warmth, friendliness, likability, openness, and competence. Capable, powerful, efficient. In that way, when we meet someone, we are very quickly trying to answer two questions. And in your interactions, if you can quickly answer these two questions, your whole interaction will be better. Doesn't matter if it's a date or negotiation interview, which is can I trust you and can I rely on you? And we are looking to people to see can I trust you and can I rely on you? And that's when we have a good date. That's when we have a good interview. That's when we want to work with someone or be friends with them or talk to someone. That's what we're looking for, is just the answer to those two questions.

[B]

So what happens if you have too much warmth and. And not enough competence?

[A]

Yes. Love it. So let's talk about the two Imbalances, Right? So the reason why charismatic people are so magnetic that we're like drawn to them is because they have the perfect balance. The moment we get out of balance, out of whack. Like let's say you said too high in warmth. Okay. People who are sending lots of warmth cues, they're seen as friendly, trustworthy, likable, compassionate, but not that smart, not that capable, not that powerful. They're often interrupted. So highly warm people have this problem where people always come to them for their life, for, like, advice and their life story. Like, highly warm people are constantly sitting in the corner of the room and someone's like verbal vomiting all over them. That is a highly warm person because they are sending off signals of open to me, open up to me, tell me everything. So people constantly seek them out and verbal abominable over them, but don't take them seriously. Forget having met them before, forget their names. So highly warm people are super liked in the office, but when they want to get a raise or promotion, they're looked over.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Highly worn people are, yeah, she's nice, but they wouldn't have you on their team. They wouldn't buy from you, they wouldn't come to you for really important advice. Highly warm people also struggle with being people pleasers. And that's because highly warm people, the reason they're sending those cues, like from a psychological perspective, is there's two desires that we have as humans. To be liked and to be respected. People who are highly warm have been taught, whether that's socially or from their parents, that being liked is more important than being respected. And so what can happen is they say yes too much, they over commit. And so people, highly warm people, I always joke that if you have a highly warm friend, you know you have a highly warm friend. If they always say yes, then cancel at the last minute.

[B]

That's actually me.

[A]

And that is because highly warm people, in the moment, they want to please you, right? They really want you to like them. They want to seem open and likable. So like, of course. And in the moment, they mean it. But then real life hits. They're at home and they're like, do it. I gotta stay home and watch Netflix. I cannot put on a pair of pants. There's no way that's gonna happen.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So that's highly warm, right? Superpowers, they have superpowers. Collaboration, being supporters, being open, being liked, their weaknesses, they're not taken seriously. They're overlooked, they're underestimated, they're doubt, they're Dismissed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That. That's their problem. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, highly competent folks are always seen as impressive. They're seen as smart, they're seen as powerful. But what can happen is because they're constantly sending out competence cues, people think, o o, she's intimidating. I can't open up to her. She's cold. Right? And so this is what the research shows, is that competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious.

[B]

Now, I guess my question is, could you be one in certain. In certain environments and another in another environment?

[A]

So this is the advanced. Right. So actually very highly charismatic people use their warmth and competence like a thermostat or like a dial. So when they're around really warm people, they dial up their warmth cues, right? They send a couple more warmth cues when they're at happy hours, when they're socializing, when they're schmoozies, when they're with a VIP that like, oh, this vip, I'm gonna be a little warmer with them. I wanna get into their. And get into their good side. They dial up warmth. They also, oftentimes we default to higher. And warmth around our families, around our friends. Maybe we dial up a little bit in competence in business situations.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So, yes, that's actually, that's where the magic is, is that not only can we be different in different situations, that we can actually control it. And that's my other favorite C word. I love control.

[B]

Control.

[A]

Oh, man. Boy, do I love control. So as a social worrier, right, I socially overthink. I lay in bed at the end of the night and replay every conversation. What the antidote to that for me has been control. So what happened is in my anxiety, my awkwardness, I would, what should I do with my hands? What cues should I send? How will they take me serious? And then I would replay. Now I have 90s excuse to choose from. So I know exactly what cues I want to send. I know exactly what cues are being sent to me. And so the way that we can take controls, we say, okay, in this situation, I want warmth. I'm dialing up the warmth. In this situation, I'm going to hit them with competence. Or I know why they see me as cold and I'm okay with it.

[B]

Right. That's what I like about this book. And your book, your, your content is because you don't have to be a naturally, emotionally highly intelligent person. Yeah, I'm not that. To get these things. So I, I was going to say to you, I think that there are people who are naturally More gifted than others in picking up these social cues.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to be like, okay, I gotta dial. I gotta dial in that warmth. I gotta, like, take it back a bit. But the majority of people do need help in these search because they walk away kind of like, well, why didn't. Why did that interview go badly? Or why did that date go badly?

[A]

Why did I get a no?

[B]

Why did I get a no?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so if you have the tools and the information to understand more, it is so powerful.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, it's so empowering.

[B]

Empower. Exactly. It's so empowering.

[A]

And I also like what we don't realize. And this is what gets me excited about this one, is our cues are contagious. So it's not just you. Being in control of your cues lets you show up how you want to show up. That's one part of the equation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The second more exciting part of the equation for me is if you show up more warm and more competent, you trigger other people's warmth and competence. So if I'm with my team, if I'm with my family, if I'm with my friends, and I'm showcasing very purposefully in control, warmth and competence. They are catching that warmth and competence. That if we show up as our most charismatic self, that is the single best way to make everyone around us be their most charismatic self.

[B]

And also to add on to that. So in order to be successful, to. To be successful, it's not about being the most competent or being the most warm. It's about really having that real perfect blend, though you don't have to be the smartest. You just have to have enough charisma or have the. The blend of charisma to get your goal done.

[A]

Exactly. And also, there's one last area that we haven't talked about, which is you mentioned smart people being the smartest person. This is the problem I think that smart people make. Yeah, smart people are smart. They rely on their really good ideas, and they think, I have a great idea, I'm really smart. That's enough. And so they show up to pitches, they show up to meetings, and they're like, why aren't people getting my ideas? And again, the research proves you can have the smartest idea in the world, but if you're not lubricating it with warmth, people cannot believe it. So what will happen is smart people, they double down on competence, and that doesn't work. And they wonder what is happening. So then they go sterile. And that's the last area that we are Trying to fight against is a lot of really powerful smart people don't know what to do with their cues. So they under cue, they under signal. So you'll notice it. Now, especially in the last five years, it feels like people have decided stoic is good, being unreadable is good. Well, I don't know what cues to send. I don't know how to be warm, confident. So I'm going to send no cues at all. And so what's happening is we're getting on video calls. We're watching presentations with people who are like robots. They have. They're trying to conceal their facial expressions. They're trying to conceal their body. They try to be as unreadable as possible. The problem is muting. Going mute is in itself a cue.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if you go mute, you actually look a lot like a liar. Liars often go mute because they're trying to not give away the truth. And so what's happening is this muting, this under signaling is actually backfiring to all these smart people.

[B]

So then that's, that's a great segue into how to cue properly. Right. So now I feel everybody's on zoom more than ever. Right. These video calls or emailing, they're not really. So can you give some good tips and good cues how to be, how to kind of rock the, the video conferencing.

[A]

And Matt, your cues on video call matter more than more than ever because you actually other things are taken away. And I was felt very fortunate with the timing. So I signed the book deal for Q's in June of 2020. Okay. And I was writing cues all through 2020 and 2021. So I was hyper aware of video. If it had only been a few months earlier, I think I would have been less aware of video.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So a lot of the research we did for Q's was on video because we couldn't do it in person.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So for example, I'll give you one example. So I partnered with Dr. Paul Zak. Dr. Paul Zak is an incredible researcher. He's kind of the oxytocin guy. If you've ever heard of oxytocin, the chemical of connection, the chemical of love. He's the guy who's been researching it for the last 20, 30 years.

[B]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[A]

He's the one who kind of discovered that you can bottle oxytocin and you can give people nose sprays full of oxytocin.

[B]

Did you wear a necklace or something that was an oxytocin necklace?

[A]

I have an oxytocin necklace.

[B]

Can you. Where do you buy them?

[A]

Etsy. Etsy.

[B]

Is it a real thing?

[A]

Yes. I got a gold oxytocin necklace, and I wear it instead of a heart because, you know, we're talking about real connection. It's oxytocin, not a heart. Yes. I wear it.

[B]

Oh, I wish I was wearing it. How does it work?

[A]

So the way that oxytocin works, it does a lot of things in our body. So remember that.

[B]

But if you wear it, you're not. Like, how does that.

[A]

Well, I wish it. I wish it actually triggered oxytocin, but when you look at it, it makes me feel good.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Actually, the only way that we produce oxytocin is eye contact.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Touch and me too.

[B]

Moments.

[A]

Like, moments where we're like, oh, me too. That makes us feel that warm and fuzzy, like, belonging and connect and, like, connection. Oh, I trust this person. I'm on the same page with this person. Like, that's why we're always like, oh, where'd you go to school? Who do you know? Because the moment you have a tie, you're like, oxytocin or dopamine.

[B]

Is that like a dopamine hit?

[A]

So dopamine. So oxytocin is a chemical of connection. It makes us feel trusting. It makes us feel the warm and fuzzies. Dopamine is the chemical of excitement and motivation. Dopamine makes us want to do things. So dopamine is like, I have a present for you. That's dopamine. Oxytocin is me too. Like, slightly different. So dopamine is like a motivating chemical. It makes you want to do. It makes you want to achieve. It makes you want to succeed. Dopamine helps beat burnout. Oxytocin helps build rapport.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

They're slightly different, right? Okay, so I partnered with Dr. Paul Zak, who I've been friends with for years, and I said to him, I'm worried. I'm literally writing the book on cues. And there's a whole cue on touch. And I'm like, Dr. Zach. Like, what are we going to do in a world without touch where we're on a video call, there's no handshake, there's no cheek kiss. Like, there's no. There's no oxytocin creators rapport.

[B]

Bill.

[A]

Yes. And oxy. Oxytocin is created by touch primarily.

[B]

So he said, I didn't touch you, and I feel oxytocin with you.

[A]

Well, we were making eye Contact. We had lots of meat.

[B]

Right. Okay.

[A]

So it's. It's not the only way.

[B]

It's primary.

[A]

It's the primary cry. It's the fastest way. That is why we're so inclined upon first meeting to handshake or high five or cheat kisses, because we want to seal the deal kind of chemically. So I asked him, what do we do? Like, we're. We're in this environment, he said. I said to him, I have a theory that if you use oxytocin words, it could kind of replace the level of engagement. So if I were to get on video and say, sending a high five, sending a virtual cheek kiss, would it do anything? So we did a little experiment where we had. He has this amazing technology on smart watches where he measures your skin conductance and, like, your physiology to see if you're actually, like, being turned on. Not sexually, but just physiologically.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's all a smartwatch on your wrist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have to clarify that. And so what he did is we. We had a bunch of in input on this software on their smartwatch and watched two different videos. One video, we used oxytocin words. I. I w. You know, I can see you. That's not such word. Sending a virtual high five. Sending a virtual hug. Wish I could handshake you. And the other one was just positive neutral. So. Hey, I'm so happy to be here. So glad we could do this. Great to get together. We found that the. When we use the oxytocin words, it had double the engagement. Double meaning. Even saying sending a virtual high five actually triggered a physiology, like having an actual high five.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So very first thing is on your first 10 words of a video call, you should be using oxytocin words. It's so good to see you.

[B]

Oh, I wish I could give you a hug.

[A]

Sending a hug from here. Hey, virtual high five. If that feels natural to you, that's a really easy way to produce oxytocin. If it doesn't feel natural to you, you want to do the next few warmth cues. So one is making sure that you're not too close to the camera. That's, like the biggest mistake that we make in virtual calls. So in. In interpersonal reaction interactions, there's four space zones, and these are incredibly important for gauging intimacy. So we're very aware of these. Like, even our distance of our chairs right now. I would say, what, we're about three feet away.

[B]

Yeah, around three feet.

[A]

That's like the ideal for an interview because it Means we're close enough where we can make eye contact. I can see all your facial expressions. If we wanted to reach out right now and just see if you can touch my fingers, we can.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the ideal. We want to be able just close enough where if we wanted to touch, we could. And we judge that for intimacy. The problem is on video calls, all the space goes away.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because there's no actual people. So what happens is people get really close to their camera and we accidentally go into the intimate zone, which is 0 to 18 inches away.

[B]

Yeah. Tell us what the four you see in the book, too.

[A]

Yes, but. Yes. So the four zones are the public zone, which is about over 7ft away. That's like, I don't know you. I can wave to you, but I couldn't talk to you. Then there's the social zone, five to seven feet away. That's like, I can see you, I know you. I feel safe around you. We're not going to have in depth conversation, but I could be like, how are you?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Good to see you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then there's my favorite zone, which is the personal zone, which is right here, which is about 3 to 5ft away. 18 inches to 5ft away, depending on what culture you're in. And that's a great zone because we can touch if we want to. I can see her, um, facial expressions, and it's still comfortable. 0 to 18 inches away is the intimate zone. We only like people in our intimate zone if we want to be intimate with them. So we briefly enter it for a hug and then immediately, back up, back up. If we're about to kiss someone, we're usually in the intimate zone. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

We're really feeling close to someone. We're in the intimate zone. So we reserve that for people that we feel very, very close to while on video call. If you are less than 18 inches away, if you measure the distance between your nose and your camera and you're less than 18 inches away, you are accidentally going into people's intimate zones, which is triggering. Right.

[B]

You don't know if there's a video, it's a computer in the middle of you.

[A]

There's an instinct. And this is why, like, if people are, like, really close to their camera, you're like, whoa, whoa, back up. It's a digital close talker. Like, it's. It's still those same alarms.

[B]

Still the same.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What I don't understand. And that makes sense. That's really great. Those are great tips for people because we're Doing zoom now.

[A]

And by the way, measure. Just take a measuring tape and measure the distance between your nose and your camera.

[B]

And your camera.

[A]

Yes, it.

[B]

What I was going to say is, how about in terms of the lighting, all that. That doesn't matter. Right. People are not like, is that too in depth?

[A]

No, I do think it matters. Like I would even say like your lighting and your background really matters.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So there's four different ways we send cues. There's nonverbal. So our body language, our facial expressions, our voice tone. That's about 60 to 90% of our communication. It's the biggest. So you know, our hand gestures, our smiling, our eye contact, those all matter. Next is verbal. So the words we use. So saying, it's good to see you. Handshake.

[B]

I wish I can give you a high five.

[A]

Exactly. Third is vocal, how you say your words. And we can talk about that in a second because that's a huge important for video calls. The last one is imagery. Imagery. What's in your background, the colors you wear, the props you hold. So for example, there's a research study that looked at the background and they said by far, having a real background is better than having a virtual background. And that is because when we have we a virtual background, our eye is like, what's back there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't understand. Where did her hand just go? So, like, those cues really matter. So, yes, I mean, the basics are lighting from the top right coming down at you is always better. Yeah. Having cues in your background that help you, that serve you. Like, for example, when I was presenting on cues, I kept getting the question over and over again. Are cues universal RQ's, cultural? Yeah. And I was so, like, this question is crazy. I'm getting all the time. So I took down everything in my background and I added a world map behind me. The question went away.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Just speaking with a world map behind me, it went away because that cued people to go, oh, she speaks around the world like that small prop. And so what I would think about is in your zoom backgrounds, in your dating profiles, you want to create cues that either answer questions or attract the right people or detract the wrong people. So I believe for dating, specifically in creating allergies. So allergies are props that are going to either turn someone on or turn someone off. So like allergies, I call it an allergy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

An allergy cue is like a cue that people feel strongly about.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That it's going to turn off the wrong people. So for example, I'll give you a really specific example. One of my friends was dating forever. Could not. She went on so many bad first dates. Bad first two or three dates. Could not find the right person. I looked all over her pictures. They were all very flattering, very beautiful, but the problem is they were too bland. And one of the problems is she's a vegan and she would, that would come up on the first, second date. And if you're a vegan, you're either really into that or you're not into that. Very few people feel kind of the middle.

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

Right. So I said to her, I want you. I bought her a sweatshirt that said, if you're not nice to animals, I'll kill you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's what the sweatshirt said. That's how she feels.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's like, this is so extreme. I was like, I want you to wear it. I want to look gorgeous and I want you to wear it in your very first profile picture. Because it's either going to turn someone on real hardcore or they're going to be like, allergy.

[B]

Yeah, that's so true. Right.

[A]

And that's what you need. Yes. So I want, I want you to create props that are allergic to your wrong people.

[B]

Right. That's a great idea.

[A]

Like our, our brand is called Science of people. I purposely told chose science as an allergy. There are certain people who are like, I don't like science. You're not my person. Right. You're not going to like my book. Science is in almost every cover marketing in my book. Because if you don't like science, it's an allergy for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you like science, you're like, yes, data.

[B]

Who wouldn't want to have data and science backing these things?

[A]

Like, not my people.

[B]

They want like a bobblehead just wandering around to say, my opinion is like.

[A]

They want funny stories and we have some of those. But like, you got to like data, you know? And so I want to get an Archie mag.

[B]

Archie comment.

[A]

I agree, I agree. You know, like, tell them, go get your Archie magazine.

[B]

It's true. Like, I mean, especially with this type of information, you want to have some kind of legitimate science backing of it.

[A]

Right? I agree, but not everyone does. And so I would think about like for your personal brand, for your professional brand, for your LinkedIn profile.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, for example, if you want to get a job in a tech startup, do not be in a suit a hundred percent.

[B]

That's a great point.

[A]

Like, you should be in the clothes that you want to Wear at your ideal job.

[B]

So tell us about that. Let's, let's talk about before. Before I even jump into that I'm going to forget why do people, when they see each other and they don't know somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They get into their intimate. Into, into that intimate zone by doing that face to face kissing or the hugging when they don't even know them. It's like uncomfortable. Like if you're someone who doesn't like to be touched or anything else, isn't that too just like you just, it's just like you're, you're, you're just assuming and it's like makes it. Can't that just be, can't that give you the opposite effect?

[A]

So here's the thing. Humans are super curious creatures. Again to c words I just love. Yeah. Here's what happens is we meet someone even if we don't know them. We really want to know. We want to suss you out. And so when we get close, we're producing oxytocin to see do I like this person. But we're also looking for pheromones. We're also judging is this my person smell wise? I'm going to tell you a really disgusting. Two disgusting studies. Okay. But these change the way that I think about touch. They did a study where they that exact question. They're like, why have humans evolved to handshake? It seems crazy.

[B]

More than that. And people are now constantly coming up to me and kissing both cheeks and like hugging me.

[A]

I'm like, I don't even know you. Yeah. And you're like, why would humans. It's very dangerous. We don't really know someone that well to allow them into your a stranger. Why would you do it?

[B]

And then you feel like. And then for the other person it puts them in a situation where they feel like they're being rude if they step away. So then you have to go about that and then everything becomes. You're putting yourself in an awkward situation.

[A]

But it's primal. Here's the problem. It is so primal. That's why like it's hard not to do this because what they did that was exactly the question they were wondering. So what they did is they found that what happens when you handshake someone is you can decide about four of the five personality traits from a handshake alone. So blind handshake. You can tell about someone's extroversion, you can tell about their agreeableness, you tell how organized they are. So first you can tell a lot about a Person by their handshake.

[B]

Tell us about mine. About. I'm gonna Let me shake your hand. Okay. Okay.

[A]

Okay. So I would say that you are ambitious, organized, extroverted.

[B]

By my handshake.

[A]

By your handshake? Yeah.

[B]

Because what was my handshake to you?

[A]

Firm.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Quick. And you only pumped me once. Let me give you. I'm going to give you the opposite handshake. Okay? You're going to see how. You're going to see me as different. You ready? I'm giving you that. I just gave you my real handshake. I'm gonna give you a handshake that is not my personality. You're gonna be like, whoa, this feels really different. Okay.

[B]

Because I've heard that this. I wanted to say one thing. We all know that. That, like, you know when you, like, give someone a handshake and they give you that, like, dead fish, that dead fish head. I'm like, that person is. So let's do a dead turn off.

[A]

I'm gonna give you the dead fish. You're not gonna like it.

[B]

Okay. It's like, horrible.

[A]

Now I'm gonna give you the other one. Okay. We're gonna go the other way. You're gonna be like, well, that's so different.

[B]

Ready? Okay. Okay. Oh, my God. That's like. People do that. I'm always like, wow. It's like, there's so.

[A]

Don't you think of me differently 100%. Okay.

[B]

What does that say? So tell us about this. Okay. Okay. So.

[A]

So first, we learn a lot about someone from a handshake.

[B]

So mine's a one pump.

[A]

I'm. You know what I don't even want to do? I don't even want to tell people, because I don't want you to change who you are.

[B]

No, I think it's brilliant.

[A]

You have to just know who you are and own it.

[B]

And this.

[A]

Okay. That means although don't be dead fish.

[B]

Okay, what is. Let's go over this again. So mine is, would you say ambitious.

[A]

Ambitious, extroverted and organized. Organized, yes. Dead fish is when it's very, very loose and limp. And we see someone as like a pushover, can't get stuff done, probably timid and probably not organized.

[B]

I also think that they're like. They're probably just lame. Like, I mean, who. Who does that?

[A]

And lame?

[B]

Like, who does that?

[A]

Like, lame, don't.

[B]

And also completely unaware. Like, so, like, socially and self unaware. Like, how do you not know that's a shitty handshake? Right?

[A]

You'd be shocked okay. Like, someone listening is like, oh, I have a dead fish handshake. Change it. Okay, so here's what's crazy about this study is first they found out. You could find out a lot about someone from their handshake. What's the other one you didn't tell us?

[B]

The third one, the sturdy one.

[A]

Oh, really sturdy one. When I, like, really. I may hand you. I like strong, and I. I fast pumped you. Yeah, you sh. So I took over the handshake. So that's dominant.

[B]

Dominant, right.

[A]

It's very imposing. It's very powerful. It's like. It's not even organized. It's, like, hyperfocused. Like, you probably thought, like, whoa, she gets it done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right? Yes. And I. So I. I quick pumped you, and I. And I held harder. And I also pulled you a little bit closer to me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. The other thing we can do is. Here, give me.

[B]

When girls do that to me, I'm very like, well, I'm. I'm always, like, very, like. Like, put it, like, put back a little bit or, like, kind of like that.

[A]

I kind of like it.

[B]

But when guys do. I'm like, wow, that guy is like.

[A]

Oh, I love when people, like, dominate. Yeah.

[B]

Like that. Like, that's like, oh, he's a guy.

[A]

But I like girls and guys, too. I like. I like both. I'm like, yeah, that is strong. Oh, my God, I'm into it.

[B]

Strong and so into it.

[A]

I'm so into it.

[B]

Like, you're, like. You're, like, squeezing so hard.

[A]

So the other thing that can happen is this. Yeah. So, like, I. If I turn you up, this is a very submissive position. It's very weak for me. And so I'm saying you're in charge versus, if I were to do this to you, that should not feel good. That's saying I'm in charge. There's certain politicians who do this. So if you've seen their politicians who go like this and they pull you close and they go like that, that.

[B]

Means you're in charge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if your palm is up, you're in charge.

[A]

If you're.

[B]

If. If.

[A]

If you are showing your very weak part of your hand, that means you're submissive. Right. You're saying I'm weak to you Also, there's more pheromones that come out here. So a lot of times women will be like, oh, it's so good to meet you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To, like, be sort of like, I'm. I'm showing, like, my intimate space versus, like, hey, nice to meet you. Which is like, much more I'm in charge. So that, that's some handshake science. But what this study found, which I think is insane, is in the 10 to 20 seconds after someone handshaked some point in the interaction, they would touch their own nose. And they hypothesized that we like to smell what the other person's hand smelled like. And I cannot tell you now that I know this. You'll never be able to learn that. Now when I handshake people, I have to say, don't touch my nose. Don't touch my nose. Don't touch my nose. Don't touch my nose. Don't touch my nose. Like, it just happened now where I was like, don't touch my nose. Because it's actually a human instinct, I swear, to shake hands and then touch your own nose because we want to smell it. I love this.

[B]

Yeah. So, so that, that. So you want to see how the other person smells?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's terrible.

[A]

Wow. And hormones. And like you, you. You can learn a lot about a person by smelling. It's totally subconscious. Like, here's another. The other example I share about this in my TED Talk, which I think was one of the reasons the TED Talk did so well, because it's so disgusting, is they had two groups of people come into the lab. The first group ran on the treadmill wearing sweat pads. They caught their sweat. The second group skydive for the first time wearing sweat pads. They took the sweat pads. Both looked identical, but two different kinds of sweat. And they had participants smell them. Disgusting, right? I hope they paid them really well. In FMRI machines, they found that when people smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat, they began to feel afraid, even though they had no idea what they were smelling. When they smelled the runner's sweat, they felt nothing at all. So what this means is that when we are afraid, it creates a certain kind of smell and it's actually catching. It's contagious. So I think one of the reasons why we're. We insist on cheek kissing is we're like, are you afraid?

[B]

Really? A little bit. This is like Silence of the Lamb. It's so creepy.

[A]

It's so creepy. Another favorite C word. I'm just joking.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

But like, but that's what we're. We're sussing out because we don't want to catch it. Very highly charismatic people are so confident. They are sending signals of confidence, and we want that confidence. We want to catch it. When someone Is low confident when they're sterile, when they're afraid. We don't want to catch it.

[B]

True, true, true. I, that's such a good point. What happens if it's not about confidence? This is about like the opposite. It's like, I don't want this rando to be like touching me and kissing me. It's not that I'm not confident, it's just like, I just don't know there. I just don't want their. Because you don't want to be on me.

[A]

Yeah. 100. So people who are less comfortable with touch. It's probably because they're like, I don't want to take a risk on your heebie jeebies. Like, I don't know what you're gonna smell like or like, I don't know you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I, I kind of like it. Like, I kind of like to know what other people are about. Like, that's my whole job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I love, like, I'm gonna smell. Smell you. I want to get close to you. I feel your hand.

[B]

What if it's like someone like, gross and not like, not very clean or.

[A]

I'm like into it? Like, I'm like, no judgment. Like, I'm like, what do you like? What, what gets you going, you know?

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, totally. That's my job.

[B]

So, so you think, like, I, if I could.

[A]

I had an experiment one time where I just. All I did in the experiment was look in people's junk drawers, their trunks of their car and their medicine cabinet. It was like the greatest three months of my life. Like, it was like the best.

[B]

See, that would be interesting to me.

[A]

Okay, I like that.

[B]

But if you're kissing someone, smelling people, I guess as it subconsciously is telling you something.

[A]

Exactly. And now that like I'm aware of it, like, just. This is a gross challenge for listeners, but like, next time you cheat, kiss someone. Like, just like smell a little bit. Like, what do you smell? I'm telling you, you're going to learn something.

[B]

It's 100% true. What if you. Yeah, like I, I guess. And do we even know ourselves, like, what we think of that smell? Like if it could be very non descript.

[A]

Sometimes I also think it's super subconscious. Like, even I've no, I've known about this research for almost a decade. Like, I, I've known about it and even still I'm trying to suss people out. So I just try to like, like take someone in. Like, I take in their handshake and I try to think like, what just pops into my head? Because I don't know exactly what it is, but I know there are certain things that will pop into my head that I'm, like, interesting.

[B]

That is so interesting. I'm, like, fascinated by. So weird, though.

[A]

The book is less weird than that, I promise.

[B]

No, no, no. It's actually, I love all this stuff. There's also something else that I heard, that gestures are way bigger than words. Right. Like, way more impactful than words. Yes.

[A]

So there's a beautiful researcher, Susan Golden Meadow, who wrote a book called Hearing Gesture. And basically her argument in all of her research is that gesture isn't just, like, extra. Like, we kind of think of it as, like, fluff. Like, we don't really think about it. But actually, gesture is critically important to our comprehension, both as a speaker and as a listener. And that some gestures carry 400% more information than words. Like, for example, if I were to say, I have a really big idea, and I hold up, like, I'm holding a little. A quarter. You're like, that doesn't look very big at all. You're actually more likely to believe my hand. Same thing with. If I were to say I have. I have three different things I want to tell you, but I hold up the number five. You're like, no, it's five. You're actually more likely to believe my hand. So our brain actually gives a lot of weight to gestures, yet we don't think about our gestures. And so one of the experiments we did in our lab, I was. I. I've always been interested in gesture, is we watched and coded thousands of hours of TED talks looking for patterns. Yeah. And we found that the most popular TED talkers, by view count, use an average of 465 gestures in 18 minutes. It's a huge amount of gesture. Whereas the least popular TED talkers use an average of 272 gestures, almost half. And the reason for this is when we are listening to a speaker and they know their content really well, they're, like, outlining their content along with their words. And so when we're thinking about presenting an idea, telling a story on a date, showcasing our smarts, actually, the best way that we can underline that is being like, I know my content so well. I'm going to tell you this point number one. And this point number two, I'm going to tell you, it's this big, or it's this big, like, we are. It's like, wow, they're so congruent. Their gestures are literally punctuating. Their words.

[B]

I'm glad that you mentioned that. Ted, the TED Talk. So I know you did a bit. You did a bunch of studies on that, and also Shark Tank, which I'll.

[A]

Get to in a second.

[B]

So give me some other cues or points of why. What you noticed when you did all your research with the TED Talks.

[A]

Yes. Actually, this brings us right back to which I forgot about, which is vocal power.

[B]

I wrote that down. Voice. Because the gestures and the voice are so much more powerful and we don't use than the actual word you use.

[A]

Yes. Like, I always think of these as opportunities. Like, imagine you work so hard on your ideas and your presence, your makeup, your hair, your clothes. Imagine if you just added these. It's like supercharging your charisma. So gestures is one. Vocal power was the other. Very clearly in that there is like a TED Talk sound. So I'm going to do it for you so you can hear it. There is vocal cues that we use. So vocal cues are voice volume, pace, cadence that make us judge someone's charisma levels, their warmth, their competency. So, like, for example, all the best TED Talks start like this. Today I have a big idea. I'm going to break it down into three areas that are going to change your life. And when they get to a statistic, they say, and now that took giant percent. Giant percent. And you go, wow, that's a big percent. Like, they even cue you of when you should be wowed.

[B]

That is so interesting. So wait, because my TED Talk did very, very well.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I started with.

[A]

I wish I just watched it.

[B]

I wish you watched it.

[A]

I know, I know, I know. Did you use that voice?

[B]

I. I started it by saying, yeah.

[A]

You do the beginning for me.

[B]

Okay. So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life.

[A]

You did it. So if we were just talking back and forth, you'd be like, I know the secret to getting anything you want in life. But you said it in a TED Talk voice. So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life. That's a TED Talk voice. You did it.

[B]

So if you. So you think. Because when I was like, when I did my TED Talk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I left there thinking, oh, my God, I bombed. Right? Like, so many things went wrong. I had notes on my hand and I was like, I. I was so nervous that my. I had, like, cotton mouth. I was like, I. They had to, like, restart it for me. I'm like, can we stop? Because I need some water. I could not even, like, there were so many like, like foibles that happened.

[A]

That's good though.

[B]

That what I'm thinking. I'm curious, but is it because there were so many foibles and I came across very real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That people maybe were like, ah, that would happen to me. That big loser.

[A]

Yes. So here's the misconception. If you go watch the TED talks that didn't do well. And by the way, it didn't do well is like 20,000 views still like a lot. Right, Right. Go watch those talks. The misconception is that those people messed up. No. The worst TED talks sound like this. Today I want to talk to you about a big idea. This is a life changing idea. The last 20 years I've spent researching has been on the marine biology, life and the series of the ocean. Like it's like so robotic and so memorized. And actually what happens is the worst TED talkers, they under cue. We're right back to where we started. They are so focused on the script, Right. They take away all the vocal charisma, they take away all their gestures. They stand there with their hands limp by their sides into the microphone reciting a script.

[B]

Right. And you're right because they all memorized.

[A]

And there's no gestures. So actually the foibles, the vulnerability. We like speakers who use a conversational tone, a conversational stage tone, because we're like, ah, we could be having coffee with them. That feels really real. So all the best at times, like Brene Brown, Simon Sinek, they're not that rehearsed. Now they might have been actually rehearsed, but when they're talking on stage, Ken Robinson. It sounds like they're joking around at your dinner table. It does not sound like today is the speech of my life. Like, they're not talking like that. So our vocal power, one, is not scripted, not under cueing, adding lots of emotion, including foibles, including vulnerability. And second, and this is what they all have is they use the lowest end of their natural tone. So the other mistake that the worst TED talkers make is they would start on a really high tone like this, say to walk on stage. Hey, everyone. Good morning. Today. I really want to talk to you about a big idea. And you're like, no, I cannot listen. That's so true. Click away. So the tone that you give is one of the most important parts of our vocal confidence.

[B]

Is that the tone. Do you know that girl? Elizabeth Holmes, from my.

[A]

Let me, let me talk. Let's talk about a little bit.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Okay. So this research is Pretty well established that lower tones for both men and women are seen as high as seen as higher in confidence. Goes flying.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, sorry. Say that one more time. I want that to be, like, said properly with me listening.

[A]

So it's pretty well established research that people with lower tones are seen as seen as higher in confidence. In fact, research has found that it takes about 500 milliseconds of hearing someone speak to decide how confident they are. It's incredibly fast. Literally your first word. That's when someone decides how confident you are, and it's usually based just on the tone. I think that study came out in the early 2000s. I think Elizabeth Holmes read that study.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

I do. I think she read it and she went, wow, great. This is the clearest link to confidence we have. Women need to be taken more seriously. I'm going to take this study and I'm going to go solo. That no one can question my competence and my competence. So what she did is she went too low, right? She went to really low down here. So she was talking like this. The problem is we all can hear the inauthenticity in this. It's actually distracting. So when she was talking, it was like, what is happening with her voice? So I think she read that setting, took it one step too far.

[B]

Well, what's interesting, though, is she did raise almost a billion dollars with that voice.

[A]

She did.

[B]

And she was like a kid from Stanford. Right.

[A]

It already worked.

[B]

It worked.

[A]

It worked.

[B]

So what is interesting is, again, that's wrong. But these are cues that actually, it might be a cue gone wrong, but these cues are so, so subliminal that even if you know it's happening, it's happened. It still happens.

[A]

And like, investors would and employees would say, we. Her voice sounded weird, but boy, did she sound like she knew she was talking about.

[B]

Well, 100. Like, first of all, does anyone have any video or has anyone ever heard her speak before the Theranos?

[A]

Yes, there's. I've listened to many of them. I did a little breakdown of Theranos. Yes. You can find clips her on a podcast where her voice is much higher.

[B]

It was.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Obviously higher.

[A]

Yes, obviously absolutely obvious higher. And also employees have said that when she was drunk, she would.

[B]

I saw that on the special on her on the.

[A]

By the way, if you want to hear the perfect example of her low voice, go listen to the first one minute of her TED Talk. It's bizarre. Like, it's so low and it's halty.

[B]

How do you stay that low for so long.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, it must have been, like, exhausting for. Maybe that's why she wore turtlenecks. Is like.

[B]

It's like, helps cover up her.

[A]

Her vocal cords.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So in your first few lines of your video call of your phone call of your date, you do not want to go, hi. That is the mistake that we all make is we take in a deep breath and we say hello on the upper part of our breath. So we say, so good to see you.

[B]

So I hate that.

[A]

So we listen to recordings. In our lab, we've listened to recordings of phone calls, of sales pitches, of negotiations, and always the highest note someone has is their very first word, which is so sad, because that means all of their confidence is given away in their very first words. People go, hey, it's so good to hear from you.

[B]

It's true. But the problem is, it's like a very weird blend because you're trying to be warm with a warm cue. You want to come across open and nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you go high.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Remember that a high voice tone is not warm. A high voice tone just means excited. So, like, for example, we talk to babies, we talk to puppies. Yeah. Hello, little one.

[B]

How are you?

[A]

Excitement, not warmth. So warmth comes from vocal warmth. So listen to the difference. Vocal warmth is we hear happiness, we hear compassion, we hear smiling. And actually, smiling changes the sound of our voice. We did this in our lab where we had actors come in and record different hellos. So we had them do their normal hello, hello. Then we had them think of something that made them happy, make a smile, and say hello. So just look at the difference to that. So this is my neutral hello, hello. Here's my happy hello, hello. Like, you can literally hear it in my voice by you smiling. Yes.

[B]

Even if it feels like a fake smile doesn't matter.

[A]

You can still hear it. Wow.

[B]

Okay, Right.

[A]

Because the shape of my mouth. Again, we're very subconsciously aware of these cues. Yeah. We don't have to think twice about it. But if I were to answer the phone and be like, hello. I don't sound very excited to hear from you.

[B]

No, you don't. I just sound miserable.

[A]

Actually, it would be like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I actually would come across as less likable. We literally studied this in our lab. People rated the smiling hellos as more likable. We asked people to listen to these hellos. They had no idea what they were listening to, and they didn't know the person was smiling, and they rated the person as more friendly, more likable if they want to hang out with them. So when I hear hello, you much more want to hang out with me just by even that fake smile.

[B]

So are there.

[A]

Are there.

[B]

And I think you talk with this book or the other book about smiling in general, though. Yes. What smiles are the most impactful or the most powerful to get what you want.

[A]

So there's a smiling. It's funny because it's sort of gotten a bad rap in the last few years. Like, it's horrible to be told to smile. Like, no one likes that. So I, I try really hard to not give that advice. So what I would say is either smile for or don't smile at all. Here's why. Dr. Barbara Wild and her researchers found that when they showed people pictures of fake smiles and real smiles, and the difference is in a real smile, our upper cheek muscles are activated. So it goes all the way up into our eyes, up in these upper cheeks. Right. Those upper cheek muscles are activated. And by the way, only 1 in 10 people can consciously activate them. So it's very hard to fake that. That means it's a real smile. We look for those upper cheek activation muscles when it's a fake smile, it stays in the bottom half of our face. Right. They're not activated up here.

[B]

Like crow's feet.

[A]

You mean crow's feet? Yes, and a ton of those. So crow's feet are fantastic. The problem is Botox is a very complicated issue, and I'm not anti Botox, but just it's important to know if you're going to do it, that it inhibits your emotional feedback loop. So when they Botox people smile wrinkles, they actually felt less happy. When they Botox people's anger, they felt less angry. So they're actually thinking about using Botox as anger management treatment. So it's, again, not that urgent. Yeah, they've actually found that it inhibits the anger cycle, that if you cannot make that anger expression, when your, your eyebrows are pulled down together in those vertical lines, it actually makes your body almost goes, oh, my face is in anger. I guess I'm not that angry. It literally makes you feel less angry. So they're thinking about using it for anger management techniques because it actually helps inhibit that loop. But for smiling, it can also inhibit your happiness. So what Barbara Wilde found is that when we see someone with a fake smile, we do not have any mood change. We see someone with a real smile, we catch the happiness. So if you want a smile, make sure it's real. That makes you literally more physically memorable, makes you more contagious. I'd rather you Real smile or no smile? A fake smile doesn't do much.

[B]

Okay, give me some other cues like that. That.

[A]

Goodness, there's so many.

[B]

I know. Give me. There's like a billion. I mean, like, I'm trying to think of. Oh, I want to ask you about power posing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because, you know, it wasn't Amy Cuddy who did this whole thing. Wasn't that kind of. I, I heard that people.

[A]

Faulty science.

[B]

There was some faulty science behind it, and there's no. The, the power posing was, is not actually something that you can use as.

[A]

Come out defending her work. So I highly recommend, if you're interested in, like, really learning about it, she's come out with a defense of her work and explanation of what happened. So it hasn't been totally debunked. So there was some fuzzy science in there, but she's come out.

[B]

It has not been debunked. Me.

[A]

She insists that her science was whole. Okay, I, I'll leave it up to you to decide and you can go read her rebuttal. Okay. What is good to know, though I don't know how accurate it is, that power posing completely changes your testosterone.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like that, that, that was a big leap. That was the biggest leap. That was the biggest leap in our research. I also think, like, I love power posing, but you can't, like, walk into a meeting like, you know, with your hands above your head. So I, I, I like the idea of it, but I actually like to like, like take it down a notch, which is just a very simple. My version of a power pose is actually just expansive posture, which very simply the only distance that I care about. I don't care if your arms are up. I don't care if you're claiming space. That doesn't matter to me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All that I care about is the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder.

[B]

The, the distance. Wait.

[A]

It's my favorite distance on the human body.

[B]

Okay. Really?

[A]

This is the distance between your ear and your shoulder.

[B]

Okay. Why?

[A]

Why? When we are anxious or defeated, we tend to roll our shoulders up. We tend to sink our head down. We'll often tilt our head down. People who are really ashamed will often have no space between their ears and their shoulders. It makes us feel very protected. And so you'll notice people who are really anxious will sit like this. Like teenagers will be like, you know, any space right here. Whereas confident people, they, they want to claim their space. They roll their Shoulders down and back. They usually use armrests. They usually have their torso open. They have their head up and out and their chin up. So the only distance that I care about that's the most important on video calls, on profile pictures is I want this distance to be as big as possible that you're not like this in your profile pictures. It was like the worst because it literally shows low confidence that you're not going to start your video call. Hi, good to see you. And that's what people do in their first impressions. They accidentally creep their shoulders up. Hey, everyone. Good to see you.

[B]

That's a great point. So if you keep your shoulders down.

[A]

Down and head up.

[B]

And that's for everything. Not just. Again, this is for like LinkedIn profiles.

[A]

LinkedIn profile video calls, video calls in person, how you wave hello, how you walk into a room, how you carry your stuff. I mean, oftentimes I'll see you with their laptop, right? And they have it, like, tightly in front of their chest with their shoulders hunched up. And I'm like, what are you doing?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, you look small. So that that distance is the only power pose, quote, unquote, power pose distance that I care about. That's actually the most impactful for your perceived confidence.

[B]

But you said something. Okay, so when you said we were. When you were kind of imitating that one. How about a head tilt? I heard. I used. I thought you.

[A]

I love head tilt.

[B]

Yeah, you like head tilt.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

But isn't that still the ear to show?

[A]

So let's look at the difference.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'm going to do a head tilt that I like. A head tilt isn't a universal sign of warmth. It's universal sign of engagement. It shows I'm listening. So if I had tilt, I still have lots of distance. Mostly I'm just exposing my ear. And you see that as, ah, she's listening.

[B]

She's open versus right, not don't. So you don't shrug those ears.

[A]

Shrugging.

[B]

You don't shrug those shoulders up.

[A]

And that also makes it really hard to have vocal power. So if I were to try to give an entire podcast interview like this, you would actually hear it in. My voice actually sounds smaller.

[B]

Yeah, it sounds weird.

[A]

Exactly. Because you can hear it. We don't like people who take up little space.

[B]

Space.

[A]

But the moment that I add more space, you go, oh, that's better.

[B]

That is a hundred percent true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, how about this? I've got so many. But, like, because I haven't even asked, I love it. I feel so. Okay, but how about. I have a note here, but I don't remember why the walk. There's like about a walk here. You could tell a lot by someone's walk. I mean, I don't remember why I had it down.

[A]

I don't know. But you, you can tell somebody. But there's not. I don't. It's funny. There's. Biomotional lab has some interesting things about walking, but I didn't even include that in the book because it's hard to learn it. It's hard to change your.

[B]

Why. Maybe I heard that what you were talking about.

[A]

I think maybe, maybe I mentioned in the book that like having movement in your walk, like not having like your arms really stiff, like the more, maybe more you take up.

[B]

Yeah, that was probably what. Okay, so let's get back to the other stuff they're saying for the video calls. How about in terms of emailing and texting people?

[A]

Yeah. So the last, the, the, the second to last chapter in the book is on verbal, Right. Because so much of our communication is email.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What we're fighting in verbal is sterile. Meaning a lot of our communication has gotten so sterile that our words mean nothing. So we send emails. Like, hey, our meeting is planned for next week. I'll prepare the proposal for you and I'll get all the information over to you, talk to you next Tuesday. Right. Like, we get those emails all the time. It's hard to reply to them. We're burnt out.

[B]

And texting also.

[A]

And texting also. Right. Hey, are we still on for next Tuesday? Right, right. We get those all the time. The problem is, is in terms of our brain, our brain needs more cues. If we have taken out all the cues from our body language in email, we have no body language in email, we have no facial expressions. Email, we have no voice turn in email. We better make our verbal cues pretty powerful.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so that's why we're so burnt out on email. That's why people might respond slowly to your emails, is there's not enough cues. It's like under signaling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So what I like to think about is adding warmth and competence to your emails, to your texts.

[B]

So can we text also?

[A]

Yes, absolutely. So when we are getting a text or email from someone or reading a LinkedIn profile, we're also trying to see warmth and competence. It doesn't go away.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Incubation. So I can look at a LinkedIn profile. Actually, a study that we did in our lab, we had people come into our lab. I Felt bad for these participants. They had no idea what was coming for them. And we had them take our charisma diagnostic to see where they were on warmth and competence. By the way, that's up for free. You can take it whenever you want. It's scienceable.com charisma. Stake it as many times as you want. So then take that. It's like a, you know, 10 question questionnaire to see where they were on warmth and competence. Then we asked them to open up their email sent folder and we looked at their last five emails they sent and we counted the number of warm words, the number of competent words. So warm words are words that are like the warm and fuzzies, happy, best together, collaborate, Open emojis are warm. Exclamation points are warm words like, wow, yay, fab, whoop. Those are all warm words. They make us feel like, ooh, wow, I like this person.

[B]

But emoji doesn't. It kind of also. Yeah, it takes away the people. You don't feel a person's confidence.

[A]

Right. They feel like, yeah, it's friendly.

[B]

You feel like it's too, like, cutesy.

[A]

Yeah, it's all friendly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we counted the number of warm words, and we count the number of competent words. Competent words are words that make you want to get it done. Productive, efficient, brainstorm, power through goal, win, achieve success, master. Those kinds of words. Statistics, numbers, prices, charts, graphs. Right, Right. So those are all competence. We count them all up and we could almost exactly predict where someone was in the charisma scale based on the kind of words they use. So if someone was highly charismatic, they had a perfect balance of warmth and competence. If someone was highly warm, they used a ton of emojis and a ton of exclamation points. If someone was super competent, they had either nothing at all or lots of statistics and big words. Wow. So in your text and your emails, you want to balance the number of warmth and confidence words.

[B]

Now, is that for personal and professional?

[A]

I think so. Right. Like, I want to be seen as charismatic in all my relationships. Now on emails that don't matter, like emails where it's purely logistics. Sure. You don't need to do it. Right. Like, these are the emails that matter to you. Like the emails, like, to your boss or a client or an important email to your best friend. So it's not that you have to use them in every email. Like, you wouldn't be, like, have the perfect hand gestures when you're trying to talk to your husband about the weekend plan.

[B]

Okay. But how about if you want to. Do you want to text back from a guy that you like or if.

[A]

You want to use it.

[B]

Right. So give us an example what you. What you should do and what you shouldn't do.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So what I wouldn't do is. Are we still on for tonight? Right? Which is, like, often the text that you get.

[B]

Yeah. Sterile. How about, like, I'm just making this up. Of course.

[A]

Hi.

[B]

You know, like, whatever. Like, I don't know.

[A]

Hi is good. Yeah. Like, hey, like, hi.

[B]

You know, you say, like, don't even say things that are like. Like social scripting. Like, how was your day?

[A]

Agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, agree. So, like, for example, I'm. I live in Texas. Right. So I might be like, howdy. Yeah. Okay. Just to be a little different, you know? And I may be like, so instead of. Are we on for tonight? Howdy. So excited for tonight. Still looking good. So that's very different because I'm giving an interesting. Howdy. An interesting opener. I'm saying, so excited for tonight. So it's a little dopamine word. Excited is a great dopamine word. It's almost like a charisma word. It's perfectly warm and confident. And then I'm like, it's still looking good for tonight. Still looking good for tonight is such a good psychological sentence, right? Because you're basically saying, I'm looking good.

[B]

Are you looking good? Yeah, I love it. Okay, if you don't live in Texas, what do you do? What do you.

[A]

Aloha. Ciao.

[B]

What if. Give me another one that's not flat.

[A]

And by the way, you don't have to, like, use all you can. But, like. Yeah, you don't have to use howdy or aloha or chow or whatever.

[B]

They're great.

[A]

Yeah. If you can.

[B]

If you want someone to respond to you, that's not like, if you don't have plans, but you want them to engage. It's.

[A]

It's using words that are going to wake people up. So it's not like, how's your day going, man?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So boring. It's what's good today. Really? Even just like that very small switch, asking someone, how are you? You're going to get good. Busy.

[B]

Exactly. Or nothing.

[A]

Or nothing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Asking someone, what's good? What's good? You're gonna get like, oh, what's good? What's good? What's good? Well, you know, I've just had a beautiful cup of coffee. Me too. We should get one together next week.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, it's Using more. Being a little serious.

[B]

Like, you'd be. I mean, listen, you could be a great, like, matchmaking coach, too.

[A]

You know what? Back in the day, matchmaking was like my dream career. I would, like, love it.

[B]

Oh, I would love it too.

[A]

I would. I would do personality assessments on people. I would do body language.

[B]

Way I'm getting to that. Don't even think you're getting away scot free.

[A]

I didn't even get to the hard stuff yet.

[B]

I'm getting through all the stuff. I have stuff. No, not. Listen. I'm getting through the stuff that's like, you know, very tactile for people who are for work, for business. Like, okay, so give me a hard one.

[A]

Emails.

[B]

Okay, well, first of all, I have a bunch I want to talk about. Like, even how. And I want to talk about the Shark Tank pitches. Like, you analyze like 500 of them, right.

[A]

495.

[B]

And you notice which ones.

[A]

Why?

[B]

The ones that did well versus not.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, talk about that. And then I want to get into this. I want to get into the science of personality. Knowing, like, even, like, opposites. Like, if you're a neurotic person, being with. I found that stuff so interesting.

[A]

So interesting. That would be matchmaking stuff for sure.

[B]

Like. Okay. And also just like, in terms of, like, relationships in general.

[A]

100.

[B]

Like, if you're in one and it's not working and why it's not working. I think that was fascinating when I heard you.

[A]

I mean, the personality stuff is. Is the basis of all of our relationships. Right. Okay, so we'll talk about Shark Tank and then personality. Is that good? Okay.

[B]

I have all these other things I want to talk about. The interrupter, which I've interrupted you.

[A]

No, we're talking. It's great. Okay.

[B]

And the science of popularity. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Well, you got to pick. Which one are we gonna do?

[B]

Do the Shark Tank, but do it quickly so we can move on. Don't stay on it forever. Okay, okay.

[A]

Okay. So we analyzed 495 pitches on Shark Tank, looking for patterns very, very simply. The biggest pattern was dopamine. In other words, the pitchers that created some kind of interaction were the ones who did best. So they thought of some reason to pass out a sample to touch to go into the shark's intimate space. Cause in the Shark Tank, remember, they're all seven feet away. It's really hard to bond with someone when you're in the public zone. So we found that what would happen is they would cleverly think of ways to go very Briefly into the shark's intimate zone or personal zone. And they immediately had more oxytocin.

[B]

And that's. And that you notice that the ones.

[A]

That did that were much more likely to get a deal.

[B]

And also when they walked in, they did something.

[A]

They. Their first impressions were really strong. So they had a grand entrance. Maybe that's what you meant by walk. Maybe they were walking in. So like that when from the very first moment you saw them, they were walking and they were taking up space. They had lots of space between their ears and their shoulders. Oftentimes they would use some sort of a greeting hand gesture, like they would wave to a shark or say, good morning, sharks. There's something about it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

There's something about. We like to be acknowledged. Sharks like it too. So when someone was like, today, I'm going to pitch you an idea with no hand gestures, no open palm. We love an open palm. So that was like the biggest takeaway. Open palm. Some kind of greeting, some kind of interaction. Any opportunity you can have to go into someone's personal space or social space. Not intimate. The social space. You're going to produce more opportunities for connection.

[B]

So walking in, doing some kind of hand gesture was a big one.

[A]

Open palm. Yep. Having some kind of interaction, if you can. And having a greeting. Good to see you, sharks. So happy to be here today. I have a great deal for you.

[B]

How about one that. Was there anything about, like, I noticed a lot of them when they. I love that show, by the way.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Yeah. When they hone in on one particular shark, like always.

[A]

Better.

[B]

Is that purposeful?

[A]

Yeah. We also found that if shark would say something like, you remind me of myself almost always. They were gonna get a deal eventually. So there was something to like, like, like picking your target and giving them extra eye contact, extra nods, answering their questions first. Right. Like. So it's good to have, like a pick, like a target. Same thing in dating, I think, too, like, it's always good to have, like a target that you're going after as opposed to like, I will date anyone. No, you want to date the right person.

[B]

Exactly. Okay. I know what I want to ask you before we moved on to these other things, which I think is really important is the priming. How do you prime people so that.

[A]

That's exactly what we're talking about with the words.

[B]

So like.

[A]

Like when you mention words like collaborate, people are more likely to be collaborative.

[B]

So that's what. So that's the definition of priming is.

[A]

When you set up people's Behavior by priming them with the right cues. Like a wall primer. Right. Like you prime a wall so the paint is stickier. Words can prime interactions. So if I have an email or a text where I'm like, I'm so excited for tonight. Are we still looking good?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I am priming for excitement and good looking.

[B]

Yeah, good looking. So I love that. And then what was the other. Oh yeah, all these.

[A]

Oh, we have personality.

[B]

Yeah, that was okay. What do you want?

[A]

Well, personality is a very big topic.

[B]

I. I know, but I found it.

[A]

You want to pick your favorite.

[B]

I just find it to be so fascinating. Like why certain relationships do well versus not. And like. Yeah, with the. Again, if you. When you have this information. And also this can be like professional relationships. Oh, not the book.

[A]

I give example. More professional relationships. Even though it's really important for personal relations. Right.

[B]

Because you could still. It's the same traits apply. Right.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Like if you. So let's talk. You talk about that.

[A]

Yes. So there. So there's a lot of personality tests out there. Enneagram is very popular right now. Disc is very popular right now. Myers, Brigg. Those are all fine, but they're just not super backed up in research. Doesn't mean they're not true.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They just haven't been replicated over large populations. The one that has is the big five. The big five has been replicated over and over again. It's like the standard in the academic community for personality. And I basically have studied that. There are five personality traits that everyone has. And you're either high, medium, or low on each of them. They're like a spectrum. So openness is how you approach ideas. Creativity. Conscientiousness is your organization, your approach to details. Extroversion. So it's ocean, O, C, E A N. So I'm extroversion. How you approach people. Agreeableness. How you approach cooperation and teamwork. My favorite, neuroticism. How you approach worry.

[B]

And so like, for example, I think you were saying something about like even simple. Like what. This is a piece of information. I saw. Like you're saying if you're one person who's very open, like you want to try like a taco stand like down the street or kind of like get to like if you want to like become, you know, fast friends with someone at a conference. Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You can easily see it. And you ask someone else and they're like, well, I don't really want to go. Yes, those are those two. Open person needs another open person.

[A]

Yes. Openness is, like, one of the most helpful. That's why I start with it in the book, which is if you want to know how open someone is, ask where you want to. Where they want to go for lunch.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A high open person will be like, let's try somewhere new. Let's go to that new place I saw. That tells you a lot about them. That means that they're driven by new. They get bored easily. If someone's like, oh, I have my favorite place with my favorite dish, my favorite waitress, and I know exactly where to park, that's probably a lower person, like tradition, habit, retriean routine. The way that you would approach them for pitching a new idea professionally, let's take it professionally, is very different. So a high open person. If I have a high open client, I'm pitching on new, I have a great new idea for you. You're going to love it. It's going to completely change the way you interact. I hope person is, like, turned on by that. They're like, yes, yes. A new way to interact. A little person is like, no, I don't want a new way to interact. I'm. I'm interacting just fine, thank you very much. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. A little open person, I would say, listen, you're doing a great job with what you're doing. I have one little tweak that's going to make things easier for you. It's proven by research, it's proven by other people. And if you make this one small change, it will help everything else be so much easier for you.

[B]

How do you know if someone is or not all the time?

[A]

They want to go for lunch?

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly a great one. But if you're not having lunch, though, or like, even in a.

[A]

So we have a research on our website which has, like, I call them behavioral questions. They're like questions you can ask to, like, suss out someone's personality. So, like, things like, where do you want to go for lunch? Things like, what are you. What are you doing this weekend? I open person's like, oh, you know, there's this festival that we heard about. Like, literally. So I'm high open, literally this weekend. I just got confirmation of my tickets. I'm so excited to a fairy festival. I'm taking my daughter I'd never been before. It's the botanical gardens, and it's literally a. They put fairy figurines and trees. It sounds amazing. I don't know if it's gonna be Amazing, but I know. So I never got into that before. But my high openness, that would tell you that I'm into high openness, high hopes. Like they're trying something new, they're doing something new. A low open person's like, oh, well, every Friday I have dinner with my family. Saturdays we always do pancake breakfast. Usually we have movie night. We're gonna regimen, teen regimen. So that's gonna suss out.

[B]

What's the other ones that you said? They're not great. They're not compatible, though. You said highly neurotic or hydrotics and.

[A]

Low neurotics are great together. So high rocks low doctor. They can balance to their out really well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They found research shows that two low conscientious people in a marriage have financial problems.

[B]

Totally. That makes sense.

[A]

No one wants to pay the bills.

[B]

So does it make sense? Okay, so is it true that opposites attract or not always.

[A]

Not always. That's a cliche. That isn't always true. Like, sometimes high and low people drive each other crazy. Like, actually, that's a really hard one in a marriage because high open people are like, let's try some more.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

That one's really hard. So that one's hard opposites. But low and high neurotics do well together. Typically, not always, but typically, yeah. High and low contentious people drive each other crazy. The high conscious person is like, pick up your socks. Yes, just freaking pick up your socks. And the low consciousness person is like, my piles are organization.

[B]

Well, what if you have a high conscientious. High conscientious, but low openness. Like, what if you have like, oh.

[A]

Yeah, that's that all this, right? So. And that's the dynamics of marriages, right? Like, you can tell, you can solve so much dynamics of a marriage if you know people's personality traits and personality ratings. So for example, if someone is. If I know, like I. I have. I do the personality matrix for everyone in my life, right? I know everyone in my life's ocean. And they know mine too, by the way.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because if I'm like, okay, I have an employee, let's say, where I give them their personality test before I start. And they are high in openness. Okay, great. They're gonna want the new projects. I should give them new stuff. Not as much old routine. They're gonna get really bored.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And they're high conscientious. I cannot casually assign them a project. I have to make sure that if I'm gonna send them a project, I am ready to go with details. So, like, for example, I have a high conscious employee. And if I were to say, hey, next week, I really wanna talk about you coding our YouTube videos, she'd be like, okay, how do I do that? Is there a tutorial that I can watch when you want me to do that? Tuesday mornings or Monday mornings? And if I don't have those answers for her right then and there, it creates anxiety. So that way, knowing your people and how they're rating, you can predict what their needs are.

[B]

Right. That's why I think this is so important, this stuff. Like it's, it's. To me, I think there's just.

[A]

And in matchmaking, if I was ever going to be a matchmaker, I would try to match people who I think are going to help each other. Like, some opposites are helpful. Low neurotic and high neurotic. They're helpful, low conscientious, high conscious. They can drive each other crazy, but they can also help the other.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A low conscious person can help a high conscious person be more spontaneous. And that high conscious person can help a low conscious person be more organized. That can work if you're willing to learn.

[B]

Right, right, right. You have to. I feel like a lot of this stuff though, like there's always. Of course it's never like an exact thing. But I find this to be so helpful in just in terms of personal relationships, understanding this stuff, it makes it.

[A]

That is what took anxiety away for me. Right. Like my anxiety, my awkwardness comes from not understanding, not knowing. Not knowing how to help my husband, not knowing how to predict my friend's needs, disappointing them. So when I felt like I had so much relief when I learned the personality matrix. Cause I was like, oh, I know what she's gonna want, because here's where she is.

[B]

You. So you don't even seem awkward. I can't. You keep on saying that.

[A]

I ask my high school friend, they'll tell you.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Because you don't have any. There's no one to ask. But yeah, come on.

[B]

Well, that's. That goes into the science of popularity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What makes somebody popular.

[A]

It's funny. Yes. This is a great. This is like a great kind of sum up of everything we've talked about, which is under signaling is bad. If there's one thing you're going to take away from this interview is under queuing. Under signaling. Holding back is bad. It never serves you. It gets you into the danger zone. Same thing with popularity.

[B]

So they want to talk about the danger zone.

[A]

The danger Zone is when we're sterile. That's when we're not warm or competent. We're not sending enough cues.

[B]

And that's called the danger.

[A]

Yeah, that's called. That's what I call the danger zone. It's like that's when people dismiss you. That's when people feel like they can't quite get a read on you. You're not warm or confident. Same thing in popularity. They wanted to know what makes kids popular. Now what's funny about this? If you were to think about what makes kids popular, what would you guess? I know you know the answer to this. So what would you have guessed?

[B]

Guessed? I would have. I would have guessed people who are, of course, open, that are. Actually a lot of. It would be openness. Friendly.

[A]

Friendly, huh?

[B]

Has an ease.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, like, like casual, easy going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also would have probably guessed pretty or handsome.

[B]

Oh, you're talking about. Okay for girl. Okay. For girls, I would say pretty. For boys, I would say athletic.

[A]

Right. So that is what most people think. Yeah. But actually, when they looked at it and they did this across multiple schools, they had all the kids basically rate and rank each other and tell who their connections were so they could see literally who were the most popular kids, what they found. There was one difference. It didn't have to. With gpa, didn't have to do with athleticism. It didn't have to do with prettiness. They also had them all ranked for attractiveness as well. Wow. It had to do with the most popular kids had the longest list. List of people they liked. The most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. In other words, to be popular, you have to work on liking more people. Not being pretty, not getting people like you. They had the longest list of people that they liked.

[B]

Why is that and how is that?

[A]

They found that those are the kids that would walk down the hallway and smile first, nod first, wave first. They were the kids who would say, hey, come sit with us.

[B]

Like a Ferris Bueller.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Friends with everybody.

[A]

And so like, that's. I think that we're trying to. What I. My work, my mission in this world is trying to fight against holding back. Like, if you like someone, say you like them. If you're with someone, assume that you're gonna like them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I would always rather assume liking than try to be protective or ambivalent.

[B]

Really? No, I mean, I'm. I'm saying really in the. With the popularity stuff, like the more people. So the people who are. Because, you know, that whole thing about, like, mean girls, right. Who are much more discretionary and discerning.

[A]

Mean girls are not the true popular girls.

[B]

They're not the really the popular girls. So the people who are friendly, known as mean girls, they know as mean girls, but those are the groups that people want to become friends with. Now, when you. When you did your research on science of popularity with young people, how did it change as you were getting older. No, for older people. Because you could be a part. You could be a not popular kid, but, yeah, super popular adult. Or could you not? I don't know.

[A]

I don't. I don't think the study actually looked into adults. It was purely teenagers. Purely teenagers. But I do think this is the same. Like, I think, like, at work, the people who we. Who we think are popular, the ones who, like, say hi to us first, invite them out, invite us out to lunch. Like, they're the likers.

[B]

The, like, the ones that people, like.

[A]

Yes. Those are people I want to be with. And so when I read that study, I decided in that moment, I'm gonna be a liker. I would rather say I like you and have you reject me than miss the opportunity of us liking each other.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's good information for kids to hear too, right?

[A]

It's like, yes, 100. So that's like the kind of empowering. And I. I tried to write the books to be safe for kids and teenagers. Like, there's nothing in there that would be, like, inappropriate for them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Specifically because I. I wish that we had had more of this kind of communication work. Like, I wish that we'd had that in an empowering way.

[B]

Super, super. Like, Like, I think it's. It's. It's so empowering. You know, I wanted to talk about a couple different things too, like how to spot a liar. Things like that that I think is super valuable. Like, you talk about a lot like Lance Armstrong in the book. A rod in the book. Even, like, Britney Spears, you know, fun is there. Can you just give a couple different points of certain things? Like the. How to spot a liar would be one of them. And then. Well, let's just do that one.

[A]

Okay. That's a very big topic. I mean, honestly, I could have wrote a book just on that topic.

[B]

Liars. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I was like, it's so negative. I. I decided to only keep it to one chapter.

[B]

Right? Because I was like.

[A]

I was talking to my publisher. I was like, this could be its own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Science. Own book. And I was like, oh, the idea of doing A bunch of touring about how to spot that deceiver in your life. You know, I just was like, no, let's keep it to one chapter. So we did a bunch of research in our lab on lie detection. Very simply, we had people submit two truths and a lie to us.

[B]

Yeah, I love this.

[A]

So fun. Was like. Like, such fun. Research to code two truths and a lie is a very simple game. You say two true statements about yourself in one lie, but you try to hide which one is the lie. And we coded them to see if we could find differences. And that was a lot of our lie detection research. We found differences in the lies. So I'll give you my favorite one, which is a vocal cue.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is that liars, typically on the lying statement, they asked it. So instead of saying the statement, they went up at the end of their sentence like they were asking a question because they weren't sure if that was true. And liars. The research proves this, academic research, that liars don't believe what they're saying. So they're basically asking, do you believe me?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'll give you mine. Here's two, three statements about me. See if you can figure out which is the lie. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. I'm a vegetarian.

[B]

You're a vegetarian?

[A]

Not a vegetarian. Right, That's.

[B]

That's the one.

[A]

That's exactly how they went up just.

[B]

A little bit still.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what happened. So the lie made them a little nervous. So they went a little higher than their vocal power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they often went up their sentence like they were asking you. So that's the biggest thing is.

[B]

That's why.

[A]

Yeah, look, listen for that. If you accidentally hear the question. Reflection. And second, make sure that if I don't want to teach you how to lie better. That was the other part of this, that don't want to teach you how to lie better. But if you believe in something, say it. Like a price or a timeline. Don't say, the price of my service is $5,000.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the price of my service is $5,000.

[B]

Because then you're. You seem, like uncertain.

[A]

Exactly. So it's more important on delivery negotiations, asking for your raise, asking for promotion. Don't ask it, say it.

[B]

That's a great thing. Because when you have that voice, that octave going up, it sounds like you're asking permission.

[A]

Exactly. And you're begging people to negotiate with you. People subconsciously are like, she doesn't believe what she's saying. Should I Believe what she. What she's saying.

[B]

Right. Let's give me another one. Like the pursing of the lips. I know is one.

[A]

Yes. Right. Cursing is another one. So lip pursing is a universal withholding cue. So we're, like, holding back. So, like, if I press my lips together into a hard line. So we found that. And Lance Armstrong did this in his Larry King interview that liars will often lip purse right before or right after a lie, as if to be like, don't give it away.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They'll be like. Like, mine would be. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs, and I'm a vegetarian. Like. Right.

[B]

You know what you're dealing with. Elizabeth Holmes did that all the time.

[A]

Yes. All the time. Yes. She had so many lying red flags.

[B]

Yeah. She would give off when you just did it. You look like her. I'm like, oh, my God. Well, can you purse those lips together? That's a big one there.

[A]

And that. That's because I think she was constantly trying to hold it in.

[B]

Are so. Okay. So is there any that are kind of we haven't heard before that's like, oh, very interesting. I've. I've heard the person of the lips before.

[A]

There's so many. There's, like, I would say 14 different, like, red flag cues to be on the lookout for one. You haven't heard of them.

[B]

Like, when someone's deceiving, you.

[A]

Can actually give a myth which is much more empowering.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a horrible myth about lie detection that when someone looks up to the left, they're lying. Yeah. Where they look up to the right, they're lying. That has never been repeated in research.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Never been repeated. In fact, like, do not use that because it will make you get false positives. Lefties often switch. There are people who process down. There are people who process up.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

And so you have to be very careful of the myths. There's no Pinocchio's nose. Right. Like, if someone lip purses, it does not mean they're lying. Right. That could be their baseline. I talk about this in the book, like, how you protect yourself. So just keep in mind with lie detection, there's no, like, one single cue that means someone's lying. There's red flags. There's a cluster of red flags you can look for, but not one single cue.

[B]

Is there? Okay. So I feel like, is there anything else we can go through that's, like, you wanted to kind of speak about?

[A]

Let's do the last one. Is the how to stop interrupt. To get someone to stop interrupting. Should we do that as the last one?

[B]

Absolutely, go ahead.

[A]

Kind of my favorite one.

[B]

I know, I saw that one.

[A]

I love that one. It's so fun. This is so practical. If you're interrupted, you have to know this. So this is if you are interrupted and you want to get someone to stop talking, this is also how you can politely interrupt. And this is also what you can do with it. Over talker. So it's all the same skill. Okay. So there's three different things you can do, and they go up in level of aggression. Right. So level one is when someone's speaking and you want to get word, and you can. I call it the fish. I call it the fish. You just open your mouth slightly. We know this universal cue of, like.

[B]

Don't people do that naturally, though?

[A]

No, especially because what happens is instinctively, if we're like, I want to talk, I want to talk. We go. We often will hold our mouth and just say, keep it together. It's not your turn. It's not your turn. But that's actually the opposite of you want it.

[B]

You're going to open your mouth.

[A]

Yeah. So it's.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's a very. It works on video, too. That's a great one.

[B]

Perfectly.

[A]

Yeah. Especially even if you're on mute. You can.

[B]

What do you do on the phone?

[A]

I think even, like, like, breathing. You can, like, hear it. I'm about to say something. I'm taking a deep breath, about to talk. So fish, then. The bookmarks. The bookmark is when you just hold up your hand just slightly. So like, you just. Excuse. Excuse me. It also looks like a pupil. Like, you're. You're holding your hand up. So what you can do is, like, I bet you're just holding your hand up slightly. You can also pair them together.

[B]

That's a good one, too.

[A]

Yeah. And by the way, the longer someone talks, the more aggressive you can be with this. Like, literally, like. Like, the higher your hand can go, like, that's, like, the more egregious it is. And lastly is a touch. If someone's like, so in their own world talking, you can usually anchor them with like, a very, very quick.

[B]

And it works.

[A]

Yeah, it works. And by the way, if you've gotten to that point and they're still not talking, this is not the person you want to be in a conversation with. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, a lot of people are so completely unaware.

[A]

Unaware. That's what, like, a touch is the final thing. They don't get the touch and they don't wrap up in the next. The next 10 seconds. This is a rude person. It's probably a narcissist.

[B]

Absolutely. So is there a lot of difference between. I mean, there are traits that are narcissistic and charismatic. Aren't there a lot that kind of.

[A]

I think that there are. I don't know too much about narcissism. I haven't done that much research on it, but I think that confidence can be something. So confidence is closer to narcissism than charisma. But narcissists can be charismatic, right?

[B]

Usually very much are.

[A]

Can be. I don't know. I would be curious to see the research if there's, like, a bigger overlap.

[B]

I'm looking here again because there's so many. Like, I. I didn't ask you all these other questions. Can you come back again? Yes, of course.

[A]

I come to LA all the time. I'm happy to.

[B]

I mean, I have. I have all these. Part two. We can definitely do part two because, like, you have so much amazing information. I'm trying to, like, just give, like, just a flavor.

[A]

Hopefully. We gave a lot. This is one. Like, I always like to kind of end interviews on this idea, which is, yes, charisma is warmth and competence, but it doesn't mean that you have to be like a robot. Like, there are 96 cues you can choose from, so as you pick them, you get to kind of pick your recipe. I think that's the fun part. Right. Like, we don't all want to look and sound the same. That would be horrible. So I think the fun part of is, like, picking the cues that make you feel good. Like, that's your unique flavor. And so, like, if everyone could just pick their unique flavor of charisma, I would be so happy.

[B]

I mean, listen, you've been incredible as usual. That's true. You gave a lot.

[A]

I love this stuff.

[B]

Like, but it shows. And you're, like, super passionate about it, which is. Which makes it why it's so good. Yeah, I. I'm not. I'm not joking. You have to come back.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Well, early.

[A]

I'm back in LA all the time. Okay.

[B]

So this is, like. I love all this. Oh, of course.

[A]

I mean, tell people.

[B]

Okay. The first. Her book is called Cues, and, like I said, the first one's called Captivate, so amazing, informative, helpful for any form of communication, really. Where do people find you if they want to know more about you?

[A]

Yes. So I read the audible books, if you like, my vocal power, so you can check audible. It's on Amazon, wherever books are sold. I think still in airports. And then I'[e-mail] so if you want to see some of my cue breakdowns, I do Britney Spears, the Rock, Justin Bieber. You can go check out my YouTube channel and have a lot of fun on there.

[B]

Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Bye, everyone.

[B]

Bye.