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Habits and Hustle
Episode 425: Shannon Race: Secrets to Standing Out in Saturated Markets + Branding and Marketing Insights
01:08:41
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle.
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B
Crush it. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Momentous. When your goal is healthspan living better and longer, there are very few non negotiables. One of them quality. And when it comes to supplements designed for high performers, nobody does it better than Momentous. Momentous goes all in on NSF certification, which means every single batch is tested for heavy metals, harmful additives and label accuracy. And that's why they're trusted by all 32 NFL teams and top collegiate sports dietitians across the country. Here's the thing, they don't sell every supplement under the sun because they believe and nailing the basics with rock solid consistency. And those basics are protein and creatine. Momentous sources. Creapure, the purest form of creatine monohydrate available. An absolute must for both men and women who want peak physical and cognitive performance. So if you're serious about leveling up, go to livemomentous.com and use code Jen for 20% off. Just act now. Start today. Jen for 20% off livemomentous.com hi, everybody. Hello. Hello, Shannon. We have you as a guest. We have a great guest, you guys. Today. If you're somebody who is an entrepreneur, has a great idea for a business or, or has a startup, this is the podcast you should be listening to. All right. Because our guest today is Shannon Race. She is the principal at Starshot Ventures, which is a venture fund where they basically invest in brands, emerging brands or ideas which we're going to talk about. She's also the co founder of a company called Bio Me. We're going to get all into it and we're going to learn about how deals are made in the venture space. What are some like hot things that people are looking at now, like what's emerging, what's trending. And so like I said, if you are an entrepreneur, you know you're going to like this one. So. So stay tuned. So. Hi, Shannon. Hi.
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A
Thank you for having me.
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B
Absolutely. I know we were talking so much before we even like started this whole mic thing. I'm like, oh, my God. Like we had like a whole podcast before the podcast.
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A
I know, I know. So much to say, so much to say.
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B
And this happens all the time. Usually some of the best information gets done before or after the podcast. So I'm like, I like, I'm like, stop.
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A
Don't just need to have like a running like, you know, Q tape or something.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's. I would be a good idea, actually. I think I'm going to, like, I'm going to think about getting that. Starting to do that. So let's start from, like, the beginning. I think the first thing I want to tell people is that Shannon was someone who worked on some of the biggest brands. Vital Proteins is one of them. And it was so sold for. I think it was the biggest sale in, like, wellness products.
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A
Yeah, right.
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B
In history.
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A
Yeah. It's huge, Huge, huge, huge exit for the vitamins and supplement space.
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B
Yeah. So I want to talk about that because that's a great Akira product to talk about. Right, sure. So, like, talk about. I kind of like in a. In a very crowded space. Right. Like, the first thing is, like, how does, like, how do. How does a brand. How does a product stick. Stick out when there is such. There's such competition? It's so crowded. Especially in the health and wellness space. You have a bazillion supplements. A bazillion brands.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What, like, how does someone create a brand that is you like, like, how do you create different product and differentiation in a crowded market?
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A
I mean, listen, it's really difficult. I think, you know, looking back at the vital proteins experience, we were kind of. It was a really interesting time. We're kind of in this precipice of like the world and media and how people were viewing vitamins and supplements was drastically changing. Vital Proteins was also collagen supplements. And that was very much a category creator, if you will, there at the time. When I started working there in 2016, you know, nobody was talking about collagen. Collagen supplementation. It's kind of laughable now. I think back, like, the girl who stepped into that office to start that job was like, I don't really even know what collagen, you know, is or does or. Or what we're doing here, but I'm excited and ready to dig in and ready to be a part of this. And, you know, now it's like, you know, everybody takes collagen, so it's pretty wild.
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B
That's crazy. So was Vital Proteins the first to kind of be. To start that bandwagon of collagen?
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A
It was. So there were some older brands that had been in the space for maybe a few years, but very, very focused on what, like in the nutraceuticals and like the cosmetic kind of space.
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B
Yeah. In the beauty world.
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A
Right. So, you know, there hadn't been a brand that came through in the Collagen space that was really focused on fitness and lifestyle and vital proteins in. In the collagen that, you know, Kurt created was from his own personal journey, his health journey. He was a runner. He was really looking to, you know, know, create a product that runners could take and help extend the longevity of their joints. And so that was like the. The birth of. Of vital proteins and very differentiated from what was existing on the market. And, you know, as, you know, the evolution of the brand went, you know, we started dabbling in the. In the beauty world and other areas too. But it just, you know, Vital had something super special that a lot of these other brands didn't have, which was this idea that collagen was meant for everyone. And there were so many different benefits that collagen had as a supplement. And a lot of people were really narrow and, you know, how they were positioning products. And, you know, we were out there really trying to encourage use across a very wide demographic. So, yeah, just different strategies.
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B
So what is the strategy? So let's say let's. So Kurt creates vital proteins. He comes to you guys because he needs money. How far was he along before you guys came on board to. To help him grow it?
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A
We had been. He had been. The brand had existed for about three years, roughly. So I think when I started, you know, we were maybe just getting to, like, cresting like, 10 million in sales, still very small. And so, yeah, I mean, it was. He started building a team around, like, where he really saw the brand going. It's just so funny. I. We've. We've been working on some internal documents, and I pulled up this old vital proteins picture of Kurt whiteboarding in a. We work when I first started, and it was like, you know, we were really focused on these different verticals that we wanted to really, you know, penetrate. And it was like fitness and beauty and nutrition, and we had people at specific, like, the helms of each of those categories and, like, how it was all interconnected. And it's just so crazy to look back at, you know, how we were thinking about attacking the market then versus how we ended up attacking it, which is so. Yeah. Yeah.
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B
Is that always the way it is?
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A
Like, I think, you know, organizationally, we, you know, the structures are constantly evolving and shifting, and, you know, you're kind of figuring out, like, what is really working in our strategy. And one of the biggest things that I was. Had so excited to be a part of and, like, on, you know, the forefront of was building this massive influencer program that ended up becoming you know, the secret sauce of the brand and the moat, as we called it, to a lot of the success that we built there because we were building community online and really, you know, leaning into expert voices and a variety of different niches and reaching so many more consumers than we otherwise had through other traditional marketing tactics.
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B
Well, that's the thing. Right. Like, I feel like that's the, that's the game now. Like every. That's why the wellness brands like AG1, like, they spend a ton of money, tons. Like, that's their whole strategy.
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A
But they're also just a D2C brand, you know, an online brand. They're not. Well, actually, no, I think they are expanding into retail now.
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B
I don't know. But that. Okay, so tell people that. So that's interesting. Right? Because then if you are just an online brand.
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A
Yeah, right.
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B
You don't have to do. Going into brick and mortar is very.
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A
You don't have to deal with all of the hoopla that comes with.
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B
Well, tell us the difference. Say, why would somebody stay on, do a business only online versus what's the benefits of being a business online versus going into brick and mortar?
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A
I mean, I think truly it's, you know, the margins that you have. If you're strictly selling through your website and you have your own fulfillment center, you're, you know, vertically integrated. Let's say you, your margins are going to remain extremely healthy, which then gives you more marketing dollars to invest in, you know, telling the world about your brand, advertising performance, advertising influencers, what have you the minute you start. But, but that's also can, can be a downside, you know, if you don't have distribution points and major retailers where, you know, people can easily access your product, you're relying on people being willing to go to your website and sign up for an AG1's case, a subscription and maintain that subscription. And, you know, that's their only kind of real touch point with the brand. Obviously being in retailers gives people other opportunities to have a touch point with the brand in the physical world. So there's like good and bad to it. The upside is the marketing dollars. You have so much more that you can reinvest in the brand.
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B
Well, I mean, because now isn't it just all about like the influencer marketing? Like every brand that does very well spends a lot of money on social media. Like it's no longer the traditional, traditional way. But what was interesting about Vital Proteins is that they spent a lot of money on getting Jennifer Aniston as a spokesperson.
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A
Yeah. And I was like, good story, though.
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B
Okay, tell me the story. Because, like, I'm like, why would a brand like that spend? Like, obviously I didn't know what I was taught. I'm like, how many. How much did you guys pay? Or like, in the 20 million, 50 million?
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A
Yeah, in the. In the double digits of millions. But it was also, you know, the contract was structured in such a way that it was, you know, tied to performance goals and KPIs and things. It was. It was a really smart deal, which clearly, you know, came back in spades for us.
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B
Yeah, clearly.
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A
But the story and, and the reason, you know, that's the thing is I. I've talked before about this with a lot of people. Like, I don't necessarily encourage celebrity partnerships personally as a marketer, predominantly because, like, they tend to be really inauthentic and they just, you know, they're just gonna dry up your marketing budget and probably not produce the results that you're looking for. The reason it worked so well for Vital, though is. And this is the story, the lore of it all. So the day before I started my first day at Vital, I was doing some online research and just trying to figure out, okay, like, where have they been placed in press? What's. Cause I started as a PR manager there, which is also hilarious to think about now because I was head of global marketing as I left. So a lot of upward, Upward transitions there.
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B
Wow, you went from. You went from PR manager to the head of global marketing marketing for Vital Proteins. Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a big jump.
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A
It's a lot. Yeah.
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B
And a totally different area too. I mean, they're very different. They're sisters, but not.
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A
There was a lot of interwoven, kind of strategic things happening on the marketing front that afforded me the opportunity to kind of like, okay, I'm going to take on this additional responsibility. Okay, I'm going to take on this additional responsibility and kind of helped build my path there. Certainly not what typically happens. I'll forever be grateful for those opportunities and know Kurt entrusting me with that and having great leadership, supporting me along the way. But that aside.
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B
No, I want to hear the story. But first, tell me the Jennifer Andis's story. Like, how did it happen?
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A
Yeah, so I found a. A well and Good article when well and Good was still, you know, really up and thriving. I don't know what happened, but where she was talking with her trainer about, you know, what her typical post workout smoothie is, and there was a link to Collagen peptides in there. And I was like, that's really random. Also, haha. I'm going to start at this company that sells collagen peptides like that. I've just never heard of this before. I was like, click the link and it goes directly to the Amazon storefront. Vital Proteins Collagen peptides. And I'm thinking, oh my God, are you kidding me? Like Jennifer aniston. This is 2016 also too. Still a small company, you know, not ready to take on a celebrity endorsement. But I was like, this is huge. This is huge. So start my first day, you know, you know, sound the, sound the alarm. We did some stuff with it on social, but the craziest part was, you know, we ended up getting in touch with our manager who confirmed, yes, she's a user of vital proteins collagen. And I was like, that is crazy. And so through the years, you know, sporadically, you know, we had tried to work out a deal, then didn't come to fruition. Wouldn't have been the right time. We wouldn't have really been able to probably support, you know, the. What would have come out of that. But I came back full circle before I left and moved on from vital, which was crazy. But the authenticity of that relationship.
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B
Well, how did it happen? Like, how did it come full circle? You missed the best part.
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A
Well, I mean, it was always something like we always knew in the back.
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B
Of our mind, she uses it. Right. How did you convince her to come on board? And why was like. Because you said yourself most celebrity endorsements don't really work that well. You're spending a lot of money, a lot of like, nonsense.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But for whatever reason, she's one of those celebrities that really moves the needle.
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A
Well, listen, she doesn't do a lot of brand deals. And I think that was, that's true. That was one of the bigger attractive things about her at the time. She also didn't even have any social media. So when we were, which is funny because we were, you know, we built this entire brand predominantly on social media. So we're like, how are we going to work with a celebrity doesn't even have an Instagram page? We did get to basically launch her Instagram with vital proteins as like the deal. Yeah, she, I think she started posting maybe like a week prior to the announcement of our, of our partnership, which is crazy. So it was almost like, you know, so many synchronicities, so many things happening in, in tandem. It was like beautifully aligned.
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B
What was the deal though? Like what? Give me the details of what the deal would be.
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A
So she did a commercial for us. We were dipping into OTT and linear TV advertising. She did end up doing a line of collagen bars with us, social media, posting event appearances. It was a, it was a lot, a lot of press. So it worked. I mean the relationship was really organic and it just, the fact that she was a user and had been a user for so long, it just, it seemed that way, I think to the public. And you know, like I said, she didn't have a lot of endorsements. She didn't do a lot of endorsements. When we talked to her manager about it, it was like she was excited about this because she's like, this is a product I actually genuinely use.
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B
Right.
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A
I'm not just, you know, doing this deal to do this deal.
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B
Well, besides Aveeno and Smart Water, I think vital proteins had like that eye drop too. Oh, I remember that eye drop.
- [15:32]
A
I love. I think.
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B
I don't. But so that. You're right. So she. But did you see the sales skyrocket once? Jennifer was on board because it was.
- [15:39]
A
A huge part of our. A big like Amazon DSP play. Like a huge advertising play on Amazon. The different streaming ads that we did. Yeah, it was, it was a big deal. I mean it was kind of funny because the, the actual campaign itself launched probably a couple weeks after I formally left Phytoproteins. It was cool to see it live. But then I was like, my dad would be texting me like, I can't escape.
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B
This is dang.
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A
Jennifer Aniston everywhere I look. And I was like, exactly. We did our job.
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B
Right. You're going to use it, you're going to milk it for whatever, for every.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Was it a year? Is it like a multi year deal?
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A
A year? Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so she was five years.
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B
Wow. Did she own a piece of the company? Was that part of the deal too?
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A
I know there was an equity component. There typically is big brand deals like that, right? Yeah.
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B
Did you try doing any other celebrity endorsements? Because that one was successful or not.
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A
While I was there. That was like the one that we, I mean, you know, we looked at other celebrities and you're also trying to move with the market, right? And you're like, okay, she, we know she's a, she's a great user of the, the brand. She loves the brand, you know, but is there someone else that might appeal to a demographic of consumer that we're trying to reach? And there's always like this push and pull of like, is this right? Is this not? And we did so much. I mean, the amount of research and surveys and just really trying to ensure that this was the right move. That's, you know, there was a lot of legwork leading up to that.
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B
I'm gonna. Matt, I would imagine, in terms of just. Let's stay on, like, influencer marketing. What's the difference between digital marketing? Yeah, like, is influencer. Influencer marketing? Like, how do you get the biggest bang for your buck online when you market?
- [17:25]
A
I mean, it's so different depending on category. Like, there are brands. Poppy's a great example. They lean very heavily into their influencer marketing, and they. It works so well because they've really positioned themselves in the. In the space as a very culturally relevant brand. So TikTok was like their number one social platform. Not only is Alison, the founder, such like, an engaging personality on. On TikTok, and was really able to kind of build a lot of very viral content around her founding story. You know, just her as. As a person, an aspirational person. But, you know, that platform just served them so well from. From an influencer standpoint. But every brand is different. Some, you know, some brands can go that path and it works really well. And others, you know, they need a more traditional approach, which might be, you know, kind of traditional ads that educate consumers. Or, you know, we're. We're actually, funnily enough with Biome, like kind of rust, like, not wrestling with this, but working through this right now because we're trying to re. Educate people on a category that's been around forever, that they have, like, a preconceived notion of.
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B
Right.
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A
And then we're also trying to really dip into that lifestyle space that I know, like, tried and true through my years at Vital Proteins, where, you know, I want people to see this as like, a cool, sexy, fun brand and not, you know, the fiber products of, you know, a thousand percent.
- [18:56]
B
But say it because that's the truth. Right? Yeah, yeah, because that's. That's a very good point. Right. Like, it's one thing to kind of be the first to bring. Bring a category to, I guess, to the market. Right. Like a collagen for vital proteins.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's a whole different thing when you're trying to, like, re. Like re. Innovate or innovate something that's been around forever. Right. So can you walk me through, like, steps on how you do that?
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A
Yeah, I mean, first identifying a market space or an emerging market or a market that, you know, a Lot of entrepreneurs have told me in the past because I, you know, being in the CPG space, you become friends with so many people who are on these, like, very cutting edge brands. And a lot of them are like, you know, I used to just like walk the grocery aisles and look at, you know, specific categories that I'm like, nobody's done anything in this space for so long. Like, why am I buying, for instance, Heinz ketchup? You know, Primal Kitchen came out and now they have their cleaner ketchup. But it's like, why am I still, like, settling for this? It has garbage ingredients in it, tons of sugar. Like, why wouldn't I create something better for consumers that are wanting, you know, less sugar, you know, cleaner ingredients, et cetera, et cetera. And so a lot of it is, is that like, physically going into a retail store and being like something here, like, why am I still buying these old soggy brands? And then others are, you know, you may be looking at market analysis reports and seeing that there's a, you know, continued growth in a specific market and you're like, huh, that's interesting. Like, that's, that's a signal that maybe this is something we should think about. Like the energy category, for instance. Huge explosive market when you start to see brands. And we have like, interesting insight because we get a lot of deal flow through the VC side. So you're starting to see, oh, there's like, definitely some patterns happening with. I'm getting a lot of pitches for investing in, you know, energy beverages or, you know, things, things like that. And you can kind of say, all right, this, there's something going on here. Maybe I need to dive a little bit deeper into this market. For Bio Me, it was really the, the former, which was that this was a category that just has not been touched in so long. And there's such a misconception around the benefits of fiber. And people just lack the understanding that fiber is a foundational health and wellness tool. It is not just for when you can't go to the bathroom. And that is the thing that, you know, I was like, through my own gut health journey and everything going on with me personally, I didn't even think of fiber as a tool for gut health until maybe three years ago, prior to, prior to this company forming.
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B
It's interesting. I've known about fiber for, like, I mean, in terms of, for gut health, it is like a primary source. Like you. It, like it helps your entire digestive.
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A
System regulate all of the beneficial bacteria in your gut. It is literally the Food for your microbiome. But, but, but like when you're, you know, going through, I mean I'm, I'm not an expert in, in gut health, but I was on my own personal journey and the things that I would read about is like probiotics, you know, collagen supplementation is good. Bone broth, things like that that can help, you know, reseal your gut lining. You know, just eating healthy. Like there wasn't, I didn't recognize fiber as this critical source to kind of completing the pre pro and postbiotic kind of.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
You know, trajectory that you're looking for in your GI tract.
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B
So, so that's why you're like, you know what we gotta bring, we gotta like rebrand fiber.
- [22:38]
A
Yeah. And awareness.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Education.
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B
I think that's, I think like I was saying earlier to you, I feel like right now it's all about protein. People are talking about protein, protein, protein, protein. That's all you hear on social media. Eat more protein. It's maybe because also my algorithm is doing it because like I'm old and so in middle age, like they say you've got to eat more protein for muscle mass and blah, blah, blah. But there is a massive, there's a massive hole in other macronutrients that are so vital.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah.
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B
I remember when I was younger, like when I was like in my, when I was a teenager, I kind of never heard about protein and only heard about fiber. Right. Like it was reversed but like everything comes back around, right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I guess I'm going to ask you a question that I'm sure you hear all the time. Like, why is Biomy different than Metamucil?
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A
Well, I mean first and foremost it's the ingredients. We went, we went for very clean, very streamlined, like only what you need type of ingredients. Also ingredients that have a lot of clinically proven benefit to them. So like our daily prebiotic fiber for instance, which is like the number one product that we sell. It's just two clean ingredients. We have glyphosate residue free certifications, we have upcycled certifications meaning that the food is, it's like upcycled ingredient sources. It's low fog map, you know, it's non GMO project verified. All of those things were really important to us because I was like, I want like the top of the line, best fiber product on the market that is going to do what it says and keep you healthy in the process.
- [24:17]
B
Why not just eat more vegetables or fruit? Why take a supplement?
- [24:21]
A
You should so and, and that's like the other thing too. I talk to people a lot. I'm like, I'm not saying only take fiber supplements. No, you need diversification of fiber. So you should be eating a lot of fiber in your diet. It's just that we are all, we live in this modern world with crazy schedules and lifestyles and to get for women on the low end, 28 grams of fiber in your diet a day is really, really difficult. So like some, you know, visual examples for you, I think it's 10 cups of non cooked spinach is 7 grams of fiber. There's. Yeah.
- [24:58]
B
What?
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, so there's 7 grams of fiber and one scoop of biome. So like when you start to think about it, you're like, holy crap. Like, that's a lot of spinach that I need to eat.
- [25:06]
B
Or excuse the pun, or an apple.
- [25:09]
A
Is 4 grams with the core and the skin and everything. And so.
- [25:12]
B
Wow.
- [25:13]
A
I mean, I would never, ever, ever tell people not to eat their fiber. They absolutely should be eating their fiber. But this is a way to also help you meet your fiber goals and ensure diversity of the microbiome with different fiber sources that you're likely not getting through your diet.
- [25:28]
B
Well, you know, it's funny you say that because I think that like for my diet I seem to eat the same thing over and over again, right? So I'm only getting one source of fiber. Like I eat apples all the time and I eat, let's say asparagus, but I'm not eating as many of the rainbow col vegetables just because you're right, you're busy. So in like, like, for example, with something like this bio meat, is there a difference between the different sources of fiber that you're getting from different fruits and vegetable or isn't fiber just fiber?
- [25:58]
A
There are different sources for sure. There's also different types of fiber. There's soluble fiber versus insoluble fiber, which actually work in the gut a little bit differently. Your soluble fibers are actually going to create more of like a gel substance in your gut and it helps with absorption of nutrients. Sorry, I was like, what am I saying?
- [26:17]
B
The soluble fi. So sol. Okay. Soluble fire helps with the absorption of nutrients.
- [26:23]
A
It helps slow down the digestive process, it helps you better absorb your nutrients. And so things like, I actually was just at a conference, an athletic conference over the weekend. A lot of athletes should be taking something like that alongside their protein post workout because it's going to actually help you better metabolize, you know, your protein. So helps with mps and things like that and just get more out of your nutrients. So that's a function of fiber that's really beneficial and soluble fiber specifically. Whereas insoluble fiber, which is, you know, what you would associate with a metamucil, or in our case, we have a product called Fiber Rescue, is going to help really with like, cleaning out your GI tract. So it actually creates bulk to help you go to the bathroom and basically detox your GI tract as it moves through. So different functions.
- [27:11]
B
Okay, so that's interesting. So then. So in case. So insoluble fat fiber is what helps you with constipation.
- [27:18]
A
Yes.
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B
Okay. So. Because, by the way, when people, every girl I know, when they're traveling especially, they're like, constipated.
- [27:27]
A
It's. It's. It's. It's literally everybody.
- [27:30]
B
It's.
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A
I think the women are the only ones that talk about it.
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B
I was going to say, baby, that's true. Let me, let me say something else. Everybody I know when they travel, they get constipated, especially on long flights. And it's like to find like a nat. So like, to find something that is a natural way to poop after traveling as opposed to, like. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I get off a plane and like, days are going by, like, my pants and my. My belly floating is like so bad, so extended. It's horrible.
- [27:59]
A
But also it's just. It, like, it hurts. It's uncomfortable.
- [28:02]
B
It's very uncomfortable.
- [28:03]
A
I. Yeah, the, the. Honestly, the Fiber Rescue product is like what I. Everybody takes with them. I'm like constantly sending it to people. Cause they're like, hey, I'm like going on this trip and I just. Yeah, I'm gonna need it.
- [28:16]
B
How long does it take to, like, activate? Like, when does someone take it? If you're traveling? If I'm going on a plane, if I'm traveling within a day. Okay, so should people take it like on the plane?
- [28:26]
A
No. So. And the reason being, because the way that it actually works is that it's pulling water in from, you know, your organs and internally to help bulk up the stool that causes you to go to the bathroom. If you're doing that on a plane where you're already getting super dehydrated, you're probably not going to feel the best. You might get a headache. You know, you might just get more dehydrated quickly. So wait until you're off and rehydrated. And it's always important to just drink it with A lot of water. Anyway, so. So that would be my. That would be my dip.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that'd be. So what else, by the way, you were saying earlier about collagen is really good for your gut health. You said collagen also helps you a lot with your gut health. Yeah, I never heard. I didn't know that.
- [29:07]
A
Yeah, it's, you know, the amino acids in it, and it creates almost like this coating, this like. And that helps calm inflammation in your GI tract. That was like, you know, when I started working at Vital, it was the first time that I was opened up to this world of more naturopathic ways of healing your body and wellness. And that was a huge, huge, huge unlock for me, because I had been dealing with gut health issues since I was in middle school and kind of, you know, it's kind of sad, but, you know, developed a weird kind of relationship with food. I was kind of scared to do things sometimes if I would get sick randomly. It was embarrassing. Like, a lot of emotions that came along with that. And as I started to really do research and look at. Oh, there's, like, ways I can just heal this with food through eliminating, you know, foods that clearly are triggers that I may have some sort of intolerance to and just kind of repair and restore more naturally. And that was. That was a huge deal for me.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Let's get back to the business side for a second. Okay.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah.
- [30:17]
B
All right. So when you got. You said earlier how you got you the deal flow. Right. When you have so many deals because people are looking for money, obviously, to grow their business.
- [30:25]
A
Yeah.
- [30:26]
B
And it's different depending on what stage of business you are. Right. Like, if you're in early stage versus when you were working, like. Well, well, Star Shop, which stage are.
- [30:34]
A
You guys on in terms of, like, our brands or.
- [30:38]
B
Yeah, like, do you look. Are you. Are you investing in early stage? Are you.
- [30:41]
A
Oh, oh, what are we investing in? We're more in the growth space.
- [30:45]
B
In growth space.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:47]
B
So when you get all this deal flow, what exactly are you looking for as people to invest in? So you said earlier about things that are, like, hot or emerging.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah.
- [30:59]
B
And you get. Do you find out what's hot and emerging by seeing the amount of the same thing being pitched to you all the time?
- [31:09]
A
You'll start to see a trend. Yeah. And types of deals that are coming through. And also, too, we focus pretty much in consumer for the most part. So, you know, food, beverage, vitamins and supplements. There's consumer tech. There's, you know, There's a little bit of biotech in there, but mostly we're focused in cpg.
- [31:28]
B
Yeah. So that's consumer product packaging. That's like snacks and stuff like that.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah. So you do start to see trends. Like there was, you know, a massive trend in like everybody was making a bar and make trying to make a healthier bar and you know, things like that.
- [31:43]
B
Isn't that still a trend? I feel like there's certain things that never go out. A style, an energy drink.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah, it is. But you also have to look at like, is there actual differentiation in what's happening in that space or is that just a super saturated space that, you know, would take so long for you to create something incredibly differentiated that actually might be interesting for an acquirer. So like, the way that you think about it as an investor is not just whether or not this investment is going to, you know, pay me back, but like, is there an exit path here? Is there a way to actually see this investment through? And so, you know, you kind of have, you work with banks and you have access to, you know, what are different strategics looking for right now? Most times, most of the time they have like very specific categories that they're really focused on. Like, you know, they're trying to, you know, build up a portfolio in a specific segment. And so when you have that as kind of like a guiding light a little bit, you can kind of, you know, sift through a lot of the deal flow with a little bit more of a focus.
- [32:46]
B
So what right now, what are some trending things that you're seeing a lot of?
- [32:51]
A
You know, well, frankly, there's a lot that's going on in the fiber space. There's a lot that's going on in women's health, specifically around menopause. You're seeing a lot of brick and mortar actually in kind of like the Medispa space, which is interesting. What else have I recently spa being like, like injection, like Botox, things like that. There's like a lot of these interesting emerging kind of franchise models.
- [33:20]
B
I see everything you just said is exactly what I'm seeing. Yeah, because I see that. And by the way, I don't know if it's because I'm in that space of like wellness and longevity, if it's just the things that I'm looking at or seeing because it's in my world or is that really what the trends are? Because I've seen differences. Like I, I, I pick up on those trends as well. What I've seen in the last Two years. The menopause, middle age, women space has skyrocketed in terms of products, in terms of conversation and it's become like a juggernaut, I guess in the, in the finance industry. There's so much money in it now. Like do the doctors who are talking about it are making a lot of money. They're becoming celebrities in their own way. Hormonal therapy is huge.
- [34:07]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [34:08]
B
So all these telemedicine places that are hormone clinics are becoming massive. Peptides are huge. That's what I'm seeing a lot of.
- [34:16]
A
Yeah, peptides is another big one. Yep, yep. I, it's, it's just really interesting. Like I also too, I, I love, love, love to see that like perimenopause and menopause are being talked about so much more and brands are starting to cater towards that demographic of women that I think has just been forgotten for, since the beginning of time. So it's like, oh, good luck, like go to your doctor, like you're going to have hot flashes and then.
- [34:41]
B
Yes.
- [34:42]
A
But like nobody's really talking about, you know. Hormone health is just so incredibly important for women throughout all stages of their life, frankly. You know, I think a lot of hormone imbalance can effectively help keep people from experiencing a lot of kind of crazy things going on in their life as they go, go through each, each phase of their life.
- [35:06]
B
Well, if you want to know the truth, I actually think it's very dangerous because you're fucking with hormones, right? You're screwing with your hormones. And the problem is when something becomes very trendy and there's a lot of money that you could be made that you can make in this, in this area. Every charlatan comes out of the woodwork and is selling you hormones or telling you you need hormones or prescribing a hormone. And that's one area that you should not be screwing with without a trusted medical person.
- [35:36]
A
Totally agree with that.
- [35:37]
B
And what I see a lot, especially on social media, everybody's talking about like, oh, hormone therapy. Oh yeah, get testosterone. Everyone I know is like, is shooting themselves up with like so much testosterone and they're listening to people who are like ninnies in the business.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:53]
B
And even people who are qualified, you have to be very, very careful because people, even qualified, they're getting like kickbacks from all these companies and they're making money because every time they're putting a pellet in your butt, like a testosterone pellet, they're making $1,000, they're charging you two and they're making a thousand. So you have to be so definitely, like, conscientious of who you're listening to. That's what's really like, to me, that's what's very scary in this. In this wellness space. It's one thing if you're peddling a protein powder or a protein bar.
- [36:29]
A
It's the underbelly of the supplement world, right? It's like, where people see opportunity and they take advantage.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah.
- [36:35]
A
People.
- [36:35]
B
Steak oil salesman.
- [36:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
- [36:38]
B
Or not. And by the way, I shouldn't even say steak oil salesman. It could be anybody. Like I said, who can. Who. Who's opportunistic is like, you know what? I'm. I can talk about this. I mean, there's a lot of doctors who, you know, I don't know if they got like, their. That they got like a hormone certificate, if there is such a thing online. And they're like, talking and talking about, like, hormone therapy. Like, if I like, not like, I'm not trying to, like, preach on my. Like, on my little. What do you call it? That white. What do you call that thing? Like, I don't mean to. I don't mean soapbox. My soapbox.
- [37:12]
A
Yeah.
- [37:12]
B
I don't mean on my soapbox. I'm just very concerned, right? Because a lot of people I know, they're like, there. People are DMing me, asking me, they're like, what do you think? Do you think I should go on this or go on that? I'm like, hello, I'm not a doctor. I don't even know for sure.
- [37:27]
A
I'm not even prescribed by a doctor. Like, you should be getting blood work done, all of. All of that and even do it from.
- [37:35]
B
But my point is the reason why. Not to digress, but, like, to me, that's a massive trend right now.
- [37:40]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody's looking for whether we want to. Whether we want to admit it or not, like, the quick fix. I mean, we could talk about, like.
- [37:49]
B
That'S been like that for all GLP1.
- [37:52]
A
And all of the things that are happening right now in that.
- [37:54]
B
That's a peptide, technically. Right? So that is like, that, to me is like, it's. That's one of. That's the most popular peptide, right? It used to be other ones like CG, something something, or BPC157. That's for, like, inflammation. I can go on about this for inflammation, but. But I won't. I don't want to bore you guys, but I. What I also. So that's one area in the food space. Like, Poppy is a good example. Right. Like pop. Poppy came after Olipop. Olipop was like, one of the first ones to come out, which was this, like, prebiotic or probiotic?
- [38:26]
A
Prebiotic.
- [38:27]
B
Prebiotic.
- [38:28]
A
Yep.
- [38:28]
B
And they were crushing it. And then, like, so they were not even. Poppy wasn't even the first to market.
- [38:33]
A
Right.
- [38:34]
B
So how did they. Did they surpass Olipop or are they.
- [38:38]
A
I don't know. I mean, they've been pretty much neck and neck for. Yeah, so they may have, but I'm not. I don't. I don't know.
- [38:46]
B
So it comes down to, like, again, brand. Like, how do you differentiate? You're the same product. Yeah, right. How does one, you know, like, surpass another one that was first to market? Like, is it just better storytelling?
- [39:02]
A
Well, I mean, I can give you a good example too, with Vital Proteins versus Bulletproof, but yeah, which is.
- [39:07]
B
That's a great one too.
- [39:08]
A
And we can. Then we can also talk about Poppy and Olipop and how that all. Because they're. They're effectively the pretty much the same product or they're selling the same product, which is a better for you soda that has fiber in it. But they're doing their. Their marketing strategies that could not be more different, but the bulletproof and vital proteins of it all. So bulletproof, I think, actually, I mean, bulletproof is on the rise when Vital Proteins was extremely small. So even though we had actually launched our products prior to them, you know, they became like, they were like, you know, right out of the gate a pretty hot brand. And I would attribute that to Dave Asprey being a personality. I think, you know, their connection to LA and, like, being in Venice, they had that bulletproof cafe. He, you know, it was. It was very much. They were the ones to watch in the wellness world. And, you know, but their entire platform was all based on biohacking, and it was all about, like, you know, optimizing your health and wellness, you know, CXYZ results. And it was really cool because that was kind of also the emergence of this, like, discussion around biohacking and how you could biohack. And then you, like, you know, you have to, like, the Ben Greenfields of the world and et cetera, et cetera. And Dave Asprey was really, like, at the forefront of that. He was really eccentric, like, had a lot of, frankly, sometimes crazy things to say, but he really was, like, living, breathing, that brand. And I think that really grabbed a lot of people's attention because it was just so unfamiliar and unique and interesting. We, on the other hand, were very much more like mainstream mass market, like, general appeal. We weren't trying to tell you how to biohack your way through your life. We were telling you, you know, collagen can help you with foundational parts of your life, like your joint health, your skin health, your, you know, gut health, et cetera. And so it was. I think what ended up happening was the biohacking was really, really hard for mainstream, mainstream America to grab hold of because they're like, what? I don't understand it. It's too much way over my head. And we were really much. We were very much in the space of, like, we just want to educate on the benefits that, frankly, Joe Schmo and, you know, Kansas can relate to. And so completely different approaches to how we addressed the market, which, I mean, now you see what happens when you narrow yourself in your focus so much and can't get out of your own way, versus when you really think about how do I attract the widest pool of consumers.
- [41:44]
B
I'm glad that you just brought that up because that's a great area to talk about, right? Because there's a lot of conversation on is it better to be more niche? Because then, like, you are creating, you know, you're a community, and then you're not, like people say, like, you know, not everyone's going to love you. But if you have, like, if it's better to have people that are, like, hardcore fans of yours, right, that are, you know, true blue but smaller, then, like, then just kind of cast a wide net and, like, just try to be like everything to everyone, right? So when do you know or how do you know when you should be niche? Because it works sometimes like that versus what you were talking about, which is casting that wide net and being much more friendly to, like, the masses.
- [42:34]
A
I mean, I think there's like a common. There's like, a couple different factors that really need to be aligned for you to have a successful company that speaks to the masses, but also doesn't waver from, you know, the values of the brand. I think if you really want to focus on one subset of community, and that is you don't care to expand beyond that. That's, you know, your personal. Right. But if that's also too. It's like, what's your business intention? Like, what do you want to do if you want to. I mean, at the end of the day, at Vital, we wanted to help get people healthier across the world. Like, that was just generally what our goal was. We wanted to help people understand why collagen could help support their health and wellness goals generally. And what we weren't willing to sacrifice on was ingredient quality, integrity of our brand, you know, certifications. There were certain things that we were like, we are going to do this in the healthiest, better for you way way, if you will. And those are the things that we're not going to waiver on everybody. Like, we always thought is everybody should have access to this product. Like, why wouldn't. Why wouldn't they?
- [43:44]
B
Well, you're right. Well, the thing is just to talk about bulletproof, you're right. Like most people, their. Their product was like the butter and the coffee thing, right? That was like the big thing for many years, right?
- [43:54]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:54]
B
That in itself is going to be very niche. It's going to be very popular in la.
- [43:58]
A
Right.
- [43:58]
B
Like you were saying. And maybe like certain people around, like, you know, in like the big cities, but like people in Iowa or, you know what I mean, or wherever, Kansas, they're not, they're not going to their cafe to get butter in their coffee.
- [44:13]
A
Correct.
- [44:14]
B
So that's a super niche market. But like, to your point, I think when you have a founder who is a big personality, it helps. Right. Because it's. He's building a community. Right. And so he'll have a lot of people who are like, fans of his and followers who will just like, listen to what he says and that will kind of generate a lot. But, like, what I'm getting from this, like, from over, like even that. We were talking earlier about the Poppy founder, right. Who's on TikTok talking about her story. Yeah, it sounds to me. And what, from what I've noticed is that for a brand to really stand out these days in the clutter, it's really a good idea for the founder to become a personality.
- [44:58]
A
A thousand percent.
- [44:59]
B
Right? A thousand percent going out there, creating a story around the founder, speaking authentically, finding your voice, you know, getting an audience. Right?
- [45:10]
A
Yep.
- [45:11]
B
And not be so niche in terms of like, what you're talking about, but make it more like, like, like you're saying with the popup thing, she's not, she's not talking to like a biohacking community. She's talking to like all women or all people who have children or like it's a bigger market but still niche at the same time.
- [45:32]
A
Yeah, she's relatable.
- [45:33]
B
She's relatable. Like, to me it's a. It seems like to be like Everybody needs fiber in the world, for example, right? Like, like, you're like this Biob. Everybody needs fiber. It's much. That is. That, to me is relatable.
- [45:46]
A
Right.
- [45:47]
B
So what's your plan? How are you. And this, by the way, is not an advertisement for Biob. I'm just saying that. I just think I'm using it as a good example because you were taking a product category that was, you know, that's kind of been stale for many, many years, and you're revitalizing it. You're creating cool packaging. You're making it like, kind of like you're, you're branding it in a more youthful, trendy way than Metamucil. Right. Nobody wants to take Metamucil because I'll feel like they're 108 years, but if they take bio me, they don't feel like, you know, they don't feel like they're at the, you know, at the old age home necessarily. Right. Like, what kind of steps are you putting into play? Are you doing a lot of influencer marketing? A lot of what is. Like, are you trying to become a personality? Like, what is the. What is your, your marketing plan?
- [46:37]
A
You know, it's funny because when I first, when we first launched, I was doing a lot of educational videos and talking a lot about my story and stuff. And while that is definitely very integral to our strategy, because at the end of the day, going back to what you were saying about Allison, who's the founder of Poppy, people want to be able to connect with a person. They don't necessarily just want to connect with a product. It's actually, in fact, hard to connect with a product. And we're being inundated with products and, you know, ads and crap all day long. And it's just like, you know, when they see someone that they're like, oh, I can relate to that story. Like, oh, I, you know, I struggled with the same thing, and maybe this could help me too. That is what creates that connection. You know, we live in this very online world and, like, we're always just trying to find a way to connect with people. And so my story as it relates to biome, and not even just my story with Gut Health, but like my entrepreneur journey or my journey with, you know, how I got to where I am in my career, like, all of those things are super relatable and people care to know them because they're like, maybe that's like, you know, maybe there's like a negative information in there that I can take with Me and will help me on my path or whatever that is. Gut, health, career, what have you.
- [47:51]
B
I agree with you. Like, this is why I like to. I want, like, I like doing this podcast with you because there's different verticals that we can cover.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah.
- [47:57]
B
That I think a lot of people can get from, number one, like how you took your career and went from being a PR manager to running global marketing for a massive brand.
- [48:06]
A
Yeah.
- [48:06]
B
I think that's very, like, inspirational for people who think that. Who are. Feel stuck in what they're doing.
- [48:12]
A
Yeah.
- [48:12]
B
And you're giving the message, the positive message that you know what, anything is possible. You work hard, you put yourself where opportunity is and things will happen.
- [48:21]
A
Yep.
- [48:21]
B
And it's not impossible. Right. Like, you've pivoted in your career from PR manager to global marketing head to now a founder of, like, a category or. Or. Or a company that, like, you're re. You're reinvigorating a very big area. And I think that, to me, is very. The evolution of that and how you've done it. I think people are listening. What they should get from that is like, no, nothing is impossible. If you have an idea or. Or a brand or. Sorry. Or a company or something that you want to, like, get into the world and bring to market, like, there should be nothing stopping you. Right. Like, there's always a way to. To. To. To do it. Right. Like, there's listening to podcasts, listening to how, like, what you got to find out, like, what's big and what's kind of trendy. How to create a brand identity. How about packaging? How important is packaging for the brand?
- [49:15]
A
Yeah. Is that a question you want me to.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah, I want you to ask. Yeah, I think it's really important because I love your packaging.
- [49:20]
A
I think it's extremely important.
- [49:22]
B
Yeah.
- [49:22]
A
I mean, it is also, too. It's like, the first connection that people have with the brand. So when. Also too. I mean, the way that we looked at it was, like, traditionally, what has been in the fiber space just feels very antiquated. It's like the stuff you see in your grandma's kitchen countertop, and it just, like, there's nothing that, you know, is exciting and makes you want to connect with it in a meaningful way. We wanted this to feel sophisticated, sexy, smart. But, like, I wouldn't be embarrassed to have this sitting on my countertop. Like, nobody would look at that and be like, oh, you can't go to the bathroom.
- [49:56]
B
Right, right, right. No, it's exactly true.
- [49:57]
A
Yeah. So. Yeah.
- [49:59]
B
Are there certain Colors for packaging that work better than others. When you did all of your. Right, when you did all of your kind of your, I guess, your recon on how to kind of do this, what did you find in terms of packaging?
- [50:13]
A
Frankly, there's like a couple reasons why we went this direction. One was when I was really dreaming this whole thing up and what do I want it to look like? What do I want people to feel when they look at the brand? I was like, where is my happy place in life? What's my happy place in the world? And I love, love, love. I go with my parents pretty much every year to Positano in the Malfi coast. And it's just my happy place. It's where I make memories with family and people I love. And it's just always brought me like a sense of calm and peace. And so I just started pulling images and like up the water and the sand and I was like, I really wanted to live in this kind of like blue green sand, gradient space, this world of like place that makes me feel happy, makes me feel refreshed. Because you look at the, the category, just the supplement world in general, and there's just like, it's like frickin rainbows everywhere. And you're like, do I go with a core color or do I go with. Every single product is a different color of the rainbow. And I just didn't want to go that way. I wanted it to really feel like it maintained some sort of integrity, some credibility, something that felt scientific but not unapproachable.
- [51:23]
B
Well, isn't there. Did you do any research on like color schemes like that work that don't work? Okay, so give me some like actual tactile things. Beside, I mean, I love the fact that you had a vision of what you want.
- [51:34]
A
Yeah.
- [51:34]
B
But I'm looking for like people who are listening and they're like, okay, I got to package this or that. The other. What are some things that you, that you learned in the process of what colors work better than others? What.
- [51:47]
A
So it's really like I delved into the psychology of color is how, how do people, what colors create different emotions in people? And so for me, you know, yeah, sure, I could have barreled down a path of red, but that usually elicits some sort of like anger or frustration from people. It's not a very fighting cover. It's peace and calm. Yeah. So very much synergistic with what my kind of vision had been. But I, so I wanted, you know, I mean, that's something tactile you can take with you is like, read up on the psychology of color. Like, be careful not to use like some crazy color that's going to make someone feel like a specific emotion unless you're trying to, you know, elicit that. But the other thing too was just clean and simple and easily understood. You know, when. And this isn't really like a necessarily formulaic or like a science or something you can read up on, but think about what you want your consumer to get. Like, you want them to get across right away when they see your packaging first. You know, there's different hierarchies and packaging. Do you want the name to be the first thing that they see? Do you want it to be the product name? How big, how big in comparison? Do you want them to understand on front of packaging exactly what your product will do for them from a benefit standpoint, how do you want that to look? There's a lot of different layers to it. But, you know, I just was like, clean, simple, straight to the point. And I wanted it to come across like they, it was trusted. They could trust that it was, you know, a brand with integrity.
- [53:19]
B
Okay, I like that. What about. Okay, so in terms of when you guys are going through the deal flow, what. When do you. What? Yeah, big pivot. Well, only because I want people to get like. Yeah, so I want them to get like a good understanding of all these, these different things.
- [53:35]
A
Yeah.
- [53:36]
B
How do you, how does somebody raise money if. When do they come to you? Like a venture fund? And when do you guys, like, what are the steps? Like, what's, what do you guys decide besides, okay, you like the product? Are you looking for just sales, how much money they've set, they've spent? Like, give me like in a shark tank moment. What are you guys looking for?
- [53:56]
A
I mean, the thing is, is it's for. I'll speak on behalf of Starship Ventures. Because every VC is different. I mean, they're all doing different types of deals. We are more in the investing externally with and growth. So I mean, obviously revenue is a big factor. You know, gross margins, you know, do you have a path to profitability? What does the next, you know, 12 months of your innovation pipeline look like? Do you have the ability to excel, expand into other categories to create more revenue on top of maybe a core line that you've already produced? Is there a right fit from like an exit standpoint? Like, is this something that strategics are. Would want to acquire because it's complimentary to a portfolio that they already have? So you're thinking through all of those things. But I think, you know, it's just from the world of Starshot, like we're all brand builders, operators, owners. Like we've all went, we've all been involved in this world from that place for a very long time. And so a lot of VC firms are like, we just want to put the capital in. We'll be here as an operational support if you need it. But we're hands off. You know, we, we will go to the board meetings and get up to date on, you know, dealings of the business and whatever and make some suggestions here and there. But we won't, we don't really want to, you know, be too hands on. We're the exact opposite. I mean, we're putting capital into a business with a lot of executive team members that are experts in various parts of an organization. Sales, finance, marketing, yada yada. And we want to be involved. Like we want to deeply be involved because we believe that we can actually help you accelerate your growth. So it's just different approach, truly.
- [55:39]
B
How about like traditional marketing? Is it just dead?
- [55:43]
A
We'll define traditional marketing.
- [55:45]
B
Like, that's what I was gonna say. What is traditional?
- [55:46]
A
Like, like, like mail you get in your mailbox.
- [55:49]
B
I mean like, yeah, direct mail, tv. I'm just trying to think of what people do, traditional magazine articles like, things like that.
- [55:56]
A
I mean, yes, print is, print is.
- [55:59]
B
Tough, but print is dead.
- [56:01]
A
Print in the magazine world I think is really pretty dead.
- [56:04]
B
But tv, I mean, nobody's watching actually.
- [56:07]
A
I mean, but it's all kind of pivoted to streaming. And so you have all this opportunity with ad streaming and it's. That's, it's, that's huge. That's a huge. If you can afford it, that's huge.
- [56:18]
B
That's expensive.
- [56:19]
A
It can be. And like it's really interesting because it's like as you know, yes, at first when it came out it was really expensive. Now it's starting to become less expensive because there's all of these interesting agencies that have the ability to find like remnant, you know, streaming opportunities, which brings the cost down significantly for, for marketers and, and yeah, it's, it's kind of an ever evolving kind of situation. But tv, linear tv, which is like your traditional tv. Yeah. Unless you're probably advertising for. During the super bowl, probably not your best place to be putting. I mean social is still forever. Like it's gonna be the landscape, but now it's kind of more of like how do you diverse. Diversify your spend in that landscape, like, where are you putting those dollars? Does it work best in TikTok? Does it work best in Meta? YouTube is huge. You know, what are your goals and objectives and like, who are you trying to reach, right?
- [57:13]
B
And then coming, like, for the future, do you see what, where. Do you still see gaps in the.
- [57:19]
A
Market from a product standpoint?
- [57:21]
B
Product standpoint.
- [57:22]
A
Oh, goodness. This is. I wish I had had some time to think about this. I don't really know because I'm sure if I knew off the top of my head, I'd be trying to figure out how we could, um. I mean, I think that. I think that the beverage space is always going to be an interesting one to play in.
- [57:44]
B
It's the hardest, though.
- [57:46]
A
It is the hardest, but. Well, yes, but if you can create shelf, stable products.
- [57:53]
B
There's so many, though. I mean, listen, like, there's so many me too. Brands. Like, there's so many of everything, right? Like again, like, no matter. I just. And then, then one just pops again and you're like, how did that happen? Like, in the supplement, like, Ritual crushed it.
- [58:08]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [58:09]
B
You know, why? Is it because they have a see through bottle? That's like, that's the secret. Like, why does some brands just like totally click on Instagram and social media? Is it because it looks visually appealing on social media? Right, because of influential influencers? Want to talk about something that looks cool?
- [58:28]
A
I mean, it's. I mean, that's definitely a part of it, but I also think it's kind of right place, right time in a lot of, in a lot of ways. Like, ritual was like the first of its kind in that space. And I could say the same thing for Vital. If we were like the first. We're doing that for the first time on social media. Like, we were literally there at the birth of traditional influencers as we know them on Instagram. Like now. It's crazy because I'm like, you know, like in a time machine backwards, talking to influencers about rates and I'm like, how the hell did this get so expensive? Like, what is going on? And you know, before then, like, I was. I don't even think half the people that we worked with charged us a dollar. We were just giving them free products.
- [59:09]
B
So it's just, you know, it's become a crazy situation.
- [59:12]
A
Totally.
- [59:13]
B
And yeah, that's. Let's like, talk about this for a few minutes and we can, you know, wrap it. But it's like the micro influencer versus the, the, the big mega influencers, because it's still my opinion, you, like, you get way more bang for your buck with a micro influencer. Right. Because they're all. Their audience is very engaged. And by the way, they're seeing your posts.
- [59:37]
A
Yes.
- [59:38]
B
The bigger you get, less people are seeing your stuff. Because meta Instagram, they want to charge you, like the person to boost the post. So your audience actually, actually sees your stuff. Yeah, I mean, I can't tell you how many people I see, they're like, they're like, oh, I'm going to follow you on Instagram. And I'm like, I give them my stuff. Oh, they're like, oh, I do follow you. That happens, like, a lot. Right. I think, I think people only see very. A very small section of someone.
- [60:08]
A
Totally. And it's usually, like, the content they're engaging with the most or like the type of content that they're engaging with the most.
- [60:14]
B
I mean, I find it very interesting and I think that I've heard a lot of stories from different founders and CEOs of people who spend a lot of money, millions of dollars. So they're like, oh, we're getting this person who has 20 million followers. They're going to talk about our supplement. I'll tell you a story. Okay. One of these very big brands, these very big supplement brands, they spent. Yeah. They spent like $5 million on this girl who's very well known, who has, I think she's 19 million followers. And they were so excited. They're like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna make our roi. We're gonna make our. Our return on our investment. For sure. She's gonna post this many times. She's go this and this and that. And they paid her a ton. Like, they went way over the money. They had the budget. The girl, not only did she not. Did it not perform it, it was so under. The performance was so minuscule. I think that it only converted into three or four bottles of the supplement.
- [61:11]
A
You're kidding. It's horrible.
- [61:13]
B
It was horrible.
- [61:14]
A
Wow.
- [61:15]
B
And, you know, I, I think this happens more often than not. Invest your money in getting 20 really good micro influencers, like 10,000 followers and under.
- [61:26]
A
Absolutely.
- [61:27]
B
And save yourself a lot of money.
- [61:28]
A
But also too, because, like, if you're looking at this person with 19 million followers and the content is like, it's like pushing an ad that's. You're not going to get, like, authenticity is so important.
- [61:40]
B
Right.
- [61:40]
A
You have, you know, I have friends, influencers that have frankly become friends over the years.
- [61:46]
B
Yeah.
- [61:47]
A
That are like, they have the Most engaged communities. Because people are like, they're just real. They just do everything like they would in normal life. It doesn't feel like they're pushing like a specific, you know, idealistic lifestyle. It is really them. And like, for instance, I was with Katie Streno over the weekend. She is like, who Katie Storino.
- [62:10]
B
Okay.
- [62:10]
A
She's the founder of Megababe. She's a big deal, but she is like, yeah, you should follow her. She's just also hilarious and crazy. Like, crazy in like the best possible way. But she literally tells it like it is. Every picture that she posts is just. There's no question that that picture that she posted is her 100 of the time. And I love that.
- [62:35]
B
Yeah.
- [62:35]
A
Because I'm like, I feel like I'm actually connecting with you. I'm not connecting with a version of you that you want me to connect with.
- [62:41]
B
And that is the authenticity. Yeah.
- [62:43]
A
And it's. And people just do not pay enough attention to that. And frankly, especially marketers.
- [62:50]
B
100%, I think, because a lot of times people who are making the decisions on who to use as the influences to influencers to promote their brand or whatever aren't the people who are spending the money. Right. They are outside agencies who just have a. They have a job and they have like a mandate. Find me four people who are wellness and they're not watching the content, they're not looking at the engagement. And so it can be a problem. Right. And it doesn't match. Like, it's very interesting to me how when I see, like, you want people who are very vulnerable and very authentic and it's very hard to find. So. And by the way, it's very hard to do that on social media. It's very difficult.
- [63:30]
A
Super difficult. Yeah, super difficult.
- [63:32]
B
It's like a whole.
- [63:33]
A
Because it's an unnatural thing that you're.
- [63:35]
B
You're talking to like a kid.
- [63:37]
A
It's a very unnatural thing.
- [63:38]
B
It's so. It's so hard. So. And I guess it's also. Yeah, like those are just like little things that I've picked up on from my experiences in business.
- [63:46]
A
No, I mean, you're spot on with that. I mean, if anybody takes anything away that's a marketer from this, that is that investing in more of these niche communities through the lens of micro influencers is going to far and away except exceed any ROI that they would get from some massive influencer.
- [64:04]
B
Absolutely. The other thing is find people who actually are using your product authentically or who want. Who actually has a need for the product.
- [64:12]
A
Yes.
- [64:13]
B
Because I find that, like, if you're giving it someone who doesn't have a need for it or like it or care about it, it even.
- [64:18]
A
And, like, do they even talk about, like, the things that you're pitching them? Like, I mean, for instance, like, I'm like, do they? If they're literally only posting, you know, their outfits every day and, like, it's all about fashion. Like, I'm not paying you Exactly. To talk about a supplement, you're never going to be able to engage with your audience. First of all, your audience probably doesn't. Doesn't even want that type of content from you. That's not why they're following you. And secondly, like, they're going to be like, this is super random and clearly an ad. This is clearly them getting 100% agree with you. Yeah.
- [64:50]
B
Okay, well, I'll let you go now because I've had you here for God knows how long. Sorry, Ed. Poor Ed. He has to sit here and listen to all of this stuff. But okay, Shannon. You are Shannon Race. Like I said, you guys, she's a co founder of Bio Me. Thank you for coming on here.
- [65:04]
A
Thank you.
- [65:04]
B
And this was very helpful. I got some information on fiber and gut and I got some information on venture side. It was a nice, like, smorgasbord.
- [65:14]
A
Yes.
- [65:15]
B
Of information. And by the way, you know what we forgot to do on this podcast, which I don't know how we forgot because it was sitting right here. Because normally what I do is I do these, like, magic mind shots on the, on the show.
- [65:25]
A
Let me do it with you.
- [65:26]
B
Yeah. Because I have. I've had like, literally like five. I keep on saying that, but I.
- [65:30]
A
I had five today.
- [65:31]
B
Well, this is what I know. My normal routine in the morning is I have one before I work out. And then the days I have a podcast, I, like, end up doing, like, one. If I have two or three podcasts a day, then I'm having, like, you know, so I can't have them. I can't have four. The founder told me, don't have more than two, Jen. And meanwhile, I have, like, three usually.
- [65:51]
A
I have not had one today, so they have one.
- [65:53]
B
It's delicious. Have you ever had one? Oh, you told me you've had.
- [65:55]
A
I have had one. Yeah. I'm familiar with the company.
- [65:57]
B
So it's very good. I like them. Usually these things taste terrible, but these are very, very tasty. And the ingredients. Talk about ingredients being clean. Very good. They're very good. You guys shoot it all back.
- [66:11]
A
I was worried that I was going to spill it and get green all over my face.
- [66:14]
B
No, no, no, you got. Yeah, it's good, though. It has a lot of, like. It's like ashwagandha. It's got a lot of good things in it, but it's. It does help with the focus. However, we just finished the podcast, so maybe you'll. Maybe you'll be focused the rest of the day.
- [66:26]
A
I will be focused on all of the work that I have to do now.
- [66:29]
B
Good. Well, then I'm glad we did at the end, not the beginning.
- [66:32]
A
Yeah.
- [66:33]
B
So thank you. All right. So, guys, check out. Well, Shannon, do you have, like. Are you on Instagram even or.
- [66:38]
A
I am on Instagram. I've kept it private.
- [66:40]
B
I was gonna say, aren't you private on Instagram? Yeah. So don't forget. Check out Biomi.
- [66:44]
A
Go to bio me on Instagram. There's a lot of good, good fiber tips and recipes and fun things there.
- [66:51]
B
If you, if you. If you travel, don't forget to take Biome. If you have any kind of gut issue, you need to kind of clean up your gut. Biome is great. Don't forget to eat your fruits and veggies. And like I said, and if you're constipated. Sorry, but it's true. Yeah, try Biome.
- [67:06]
A
Do it.
- [67:07]
B
Yeah, bye. Oh, by the way, more thing, guys. I keep on forgetting to say this. Please, please, please leave me comments. Please subscribe if you haven't. It makes a massive difference. I never, ever talk about it, but I always forget. Not because of any other reason, but comments really help me know what you guys want to hear about what you like, what you don't like. So please don't be shy, leave a comment, and have a good day.