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Habits and Hustle
Episode 443: Colleen Pelly: The Secret Quality That Makes You More Hireable Than Technical Skills
00:55:44
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.
- [00:08]
B
Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Momentous. When your goal is healthspan living better and longer, there are very few non negotiables. One of them quality. And when it comes to supplements designed for high performers, nobody does it better than Momentous. Momentous goes all in on NSF certification, which means every single batch is tested for heavy metals, harmful additives, and label accuracy. And that's why they're trusted by all 32 NFL teams and top collegiate sports dietitians across the country. Here's the thing. They don't sell every supplement under the sun because they believe in and nailing the basics with rock solid consistency. And those basics are protein and creatine. Momentous sources. Creapure, the purest form of creatine monohydrate available. An absolute must for both men and women who want peak physical and cognitive performance. So if you're serious about leveling up, go to livemomentous.com and use code Jen for 20% off. Just act now. Start today. Jen for 20% off livemomentous.com.
- [01:33]
A
Hi, guys.
- [01:34]
B
Welcome to Habits and Hustle. Today we have a very special guest because I thought given where we are in the world and how everything right now is tweaking and changing, of course, with the new president coming in, I, I think a big thing that's in everybody's mind is inflation, the, the economy. How, how does, like, employment, how does all this impact jobs, basically? Right. And how to, you know, be hireable, you know, like. So I thought today we're gonna, I thought today would be a great time to have Colleen Pelion, who is the CEO, founder of a company called Linchpin, which is basically a recruitment agency. She, you, you help people find jobs, you find companies. You know, get employees from all levels. Right? From entry all the way up to C level.
- [02:23]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [02:24]
B
Right. So who better to ask than you?
- [02:27]
A
That's right.
- [02:28]
B
Right. So thank you for coming on the show.
- [02:30]
A
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
- [02:32]
B
I'm really excited to talk to you and have this conversation because I think now more than ever, it's in the zeitgeist of what's happening. I guess my first question for you is, I guess when you're hiring, when. What is the, what is the number one trait that makes somebody hireable?
- [02:52]
A
Oh, great question.
- [02:54]
B
Yeah.
- [02:54]
A
And it feels so simple. But I think when you think about Self awareness or like a high emotional intelligence or a high ability to be self aware for me feels like one of the most important parts. And I think a lot of it is we talk about a lot of interviews sometimes talk about like what went wrong or like what's an error you made or a mistake you made. And being able to be self aware and hold yourself accountable to what went wrong.
- [03:17]
B
Right.
- [03:17]
A
And also talk about like what did you learn and how do we move forward is like that's a beautiful skill to have. And just being able to articulate what you've done well and metrics and data. So I think there's like a self awareness piece I would say is, is a really important and really useful part to have.
- [03:32]
B
So it's funny because I think that self awareness is key for all walks, for all walks of life.
- [03:37]
A
Right.
- [03:38]
B
And it's not so common. Right. Like it's, it's, it's something that we, I guess some of us, I do do feel. In your opinion it is, is it something that someone can work on or is it something that's more innate?
- [03:51]
A
I think like anything you can work on it, but I definitely think it's something that you have or you don't in a strong way. Like I think some people think they're self aware and have no idea what's going on.
- [03:59]
B
Like I. Yeah, right, exactly. I think that's very common. What I also find interesting that in all my dealings in life and business.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah.
- [04:08]
B
That I feel that talent is very overrated and talent definitely gets you through the door. But if you don't have these other micro skills like you said, like self awareness or a higher EQ or reading the room or all these other things, work ethic. It really does dampen the importance of talent. Do you agree?
- [04:31]
A
100%. And I think if you take that into what hiring looks like or the recruitment process, we focus so much on a technical requirement for roles or like you're hiring a software engineer, like what's their coding experience?
- [04:43]
B
Right.
- [04:43]
A
But if you're ignoring. I love how to read a room. That's like one of my favorite ones. If you're ignoring that and you're ignoring your ability to regulate emotion and have clear conversations and give and receive feedback, they're not going to be successful in the role regardless if they can do the technical skill or not.
- [04:57]
B
I mean, listen, I think I should tell you, I don't know if, I don't know if you know this. You probably don't. But many, many years ago. Yeah. Many like like 25 years ago.
- [05:06]
A
Okay.
- [05:06]
B
When I was in between jobs and career.
- [05:10]
A
Yeah.
- [05:10]
B
I got a job at a recruitment agency. Amazing.
- [05:13]
A
I did not know that.
- [05:13]
B
No. I didn't think you would know this. And what I found was I was working on, I got hired to like help with like technology. People like people to do like, it was like graphic design. It was like coding. It was computer talent.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah.
- [05:28]
B
And, and what I found, even with my own like very minimal experience, the people who got the job or I recommended were the people that were the most likable that I just like to be around.
- [05:42]
A
Right.
- [05:42]
B
And like, it is my opinion in general, I think that likability is a way bigger indicator of someone's success and overall higher ability than any talent that you can ever have.
- [05:53]
A
Yeah. And it's tricky because there's, there's a bias that come can come into play where we like, we want to hire people like us.
- [05:59]
B
Yeah.
- [05:59]
A
So if you're vibing with someone when you're interviewing them, it's so easy to be like, this is amazing. I could absolutely hang out with this person.
- [06:04]
B
Yeah.
- [06:05]
A
But it's less about like the likability or it's not like, like, I think a few years ago, like Google, it would be like, oh, can I have a beer with this person? And it's like, it's not that because you may not necessarily like them as a friend, but do I like their energy and their vibe and their ability to like hold a conversation with me and can I see myself partnering?
- [06:21]
B
Yeah.
- [06:22]
A
So likability in that way. 100%. And I think part of that too is like, if you're a clear communicator, that likability comes through. So if you're like, I, I, I've talked about this before, but I think it's like if there's two people who are the exact same and they have the exact same experience and they bring the exact same energy, but somebody is a better communicator or they have like a higher sense of urgency in the way they communicate. I'm going to pick them every time because they're going to perform better for you.
- [06:45]
B
Well, that's another one, like a sense of urgency.
- [06:48]
A
What probably my most, I mean, I think I have actually do it to a fault. Like I'm so quick in the way I communicate. I almost think I have expectations of everyone and I'm like, what do you mean? You haven't responded in seven minutes.
- [06:58]
B
I'm, I'm the same way.
- [07:00]
A
And people think I'm, it's So unhealthy.
- [07:02]
B
But yeah, yeah, it's so unhealthy. But like, but I think that's why.
- [07:05]
A
People like working with us, right?
- [07:07]
B
I think, I think that there's like certain things that override just actual like you said technical ability. Right now. Do you feel like, would you, what do you specialize? Do you have any specialties at Linchpin or.
- [07:20]
A
Great question.
- [07:20]
B
Okay.
- [07:20]
A
And so I think this is probably one of the most commonly asked questions and any business coach will tell me you should have like a very specific niche. So there's a lot of recruiters who are like just tech recruiters or just marketing or just construction. And I've gone so far out of my way to not do that. So I like to focus on purpose led companies and purpose driven people. That's our recruitment, with purpose is our tagline. And I've curated my team. So I do still have a pipeline in tech and in sales and in legal and in finance. But we are so concerned, I guess is the right word with who the clients we're working with are. Do the way they treat their people and the way they operate their company align with who we are. Because if you can find your way to like feel on the same page or on the same path of that, the recruitment process is so much more authentic. But it's my biggest roadblock really because a lot of people, people who don't know anything about recruiting, I would say in transparency will come back and be like, you know what, I'm going to go with Jen's company because she's done tech only tech recruiting for 15 years. But it's like, no, really, if you look at my background, I've got retail, I've got tech, I've got cannabis, I've got automotive. And great. Recruitment is about understanding the need and honestly caring about candidate and client experience. And you can hire for anyone. And so my biggest roadblock is getting through, letting people give me a chance to show you what it can actually look like. Because it's so easy to say, oh well, they've done exactly my type of recruiting for this many years. But that doesn't mean that they're going to give you the same experience.
- [08:42]
B
Right? Well, it's like also transferable skills, right? If you can do it in one area, you can do it in another area. That's right. It doesn't matter, right? Like you can, if you can sell a widget, you can sell a wid, you know, a widget in, in cars, you can sell a widget for a SOFA or whatever it is.
- [08:57]
A
Absolutely.
- [08:58]
B
Because it's like the foundational skills of knowing of like, what you're doing.
- [09:02]
A
And I would say you could actually take that into the hiring process too, because I think if we talk about sort of like more traditional recruitment methods, I think there's a way a lot of people are so stuck on. I need them to have experience in this industry or they need to have done this. But it's like, no, let's break down the fundamental skills for the role. And if they did this in automotive, they can also do it in tech.
- [09:22]
B
Right.
- [09:22]
A
If it's the same skill set, like a project manager can manage any, like, different types of projects.
- [09:27]
B
Right, right, right.
- [09:27]
A
And I think the clients we love working with understand that. And it's. It's our job, I guess, to sell the transferable skillset too. But I think people get really stuck on, like, titles and industry and it's like, no, like, we need to focus a little bit more and like, can they do the job properly regardless if they've done it in the exact same way before?
- [09:43]
B
Well, also, the companies that do really and thrive all have a very streamlined feel to it. Like, Lululemon is a great example. And I know you used to work with.
- [09:53]
A
Yeah, that was my. My start into recruitment.
- [09:55]
B
Really. Yeah, I knew you worked with it, but I wasn't sure if it was the beginning or like middle. But what they, what they did very early on, and I think they were the first ones that I recognized was doing really well, was building a culture. And the culture was very, very strong. And everybody like that they hired, they all fit that culture and like, body well and. Yes, exactly.
- [10:19]
A
And I think, like, it was almost.
- [10:21]
B
What was that called? What, what did you guys have a mandate? Like, when they. Who a. When they hired. When they hired you to hire their employees, did they give you kind of like a mission statement to work with or.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah, a little bit. I think, like, there's definitely like a manifesto or that way, but I feel like a lot of it was sort of, how do you want to operate in the world? And like, at the time it was like, yeah, do you like to move your body? Like, you know, is mindfulness a part of your everyday? That kind of thing. But the whole. From a recruitment perspective, when a company does that really well, man, my job was easy.
- [10:53]
B
Right.
- [10:53]
A
Because everyone wanted to work there.
- [10:55]
B
Right. Did everybody. I mean, yeah, that was like the big.
- [10:57]
A
At the time. Yeah.
- [10:59]
B
At the. But everybody's personality fit a very specific. I felt like a very specific kind of collective Rule. Like, not rules is a wrong word. But like, like the. Everyone kind of was cut from the same cloth.
- [11:12]
A
Yeah. And I think I. I probably didn't fit into a certain extent because I had never done yoga before and it was a yoga company, so. But I remember that made me stand out, but I think.
- [11:20]
B
But it wasn't a yoga company. It was actually an apparel company. It was a clothing company. They were selling the most expensive pair of pants on the planet. Yoga pants. Right.
- [11:28]
A
And they really still so crazy to think about.
- [11:30]
B
Oh, it's still. And by the way. Yeah. And now. But now they were the first of its kind. Now there's a million of them, right?
- [11:36]
A
Yeah. And there's so many. But yeah.
- [11:37]
B
I think that you're the pioneer.
- [11:38]
A
The collective mindset, I guess, is the best way to put would be like, goal setting and always wanting to better yourself. So there's like a personal development piece that I feel like everyone we hired sort of had in common and it was sort of like never settling for less. And there's always more you can do and there's always. There's a continuous learning piece and there's just like a hunger to be better was part of the consistency.
- [11:56]
B
I also found everyone very friendly when they walked in.
- [11:59]
A
Yeah.
- [12:00]
B
And everybody. Not just friendly, but, like, overly, like, happy.
- [12:06]
A
Yeah. So at the store level, that's where I start. I started in the stores as a sales associate and they're called educators. And the front people at the time, this was years ago, but they were called DofI, which is director of first impressions. And you had to greet someone within six seconds of them coming in.
- [12:20]
B
I love this.
- [12:20]
A
And so, like, you can't. If you're coming in the door, I can't let you get past me essentially without, like, good morning or welcome. Like, thanks so much. So there's definitely a peppy.
- [12:28]
B
A pep.
- [12:29]
A
You're not. You're not wrong about that.
- [12:31]
B
Right? Yeah, but like. But like, it works, right?
- [12:34]
A
Yep. Yeah.
- [12:34]
B
Because I'm now talking about it like years later because they obviously set a standard that they would hire for.
- [12:41]
A
Yeah.
- [12:42]
B
And I guess when everyone starts that job, they get like some kind of manifestation too.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah. Like, and I think there's. So the stores sort of broken down into different sections and. Yeah, it. But it was. It never felt, I think. I mean, I was young. Like, it was one of my first jobs. And I think like, one of the things that always landed for me was it never felt like work because every. Maybe because everyone was like, minded in a certain. But like, I Loved everyone. Like a lot of them are still close friends of mine today. And we had so much fun. Really, like it was such. I would recommend any young person to like work in the stores if that's like the type.
- [13:14]
B
It looked like it was fun.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah, really fun.
- [13:16]
B
And then so were you. So you weren't really involved in like built like building out the brand culture at that level? No, at that point.
- [13:24]
A
And the hiring kind of came into play with like seasonal like holiday hiring. So it was like when you're on store leadership and then you're sort of voluntold, you have to hire your team. Yeah, you have to hire the seasonal employees and that's how recruiting start. I sort of like fell into it in that way.
- [13:36]
B
Can you give me another example of a really strong corporate culture that you were a part of that you helped kind of, I guess really execute on?
- [13:44]
A
Yeah, I think the most like fundamental like building blocks example I can think of was, was Tesla.
- [13:52]
B
So.
- [13:52]
A
So they brought me in. I was the first Canadian recruitment or hiring TA employee. So they brought me in to sort of build the recruitment function and I had this opportunity to take this very successful brand in the States at the time. And what does that look like for Canada? And how do we, how do we create the same sort of function and culture but like make it unique to who we are and the way we operate? So that was a unique experience because the brand was so well known. It was similar actually to Lululemon at the time where a lot of people wanted to work there. So it's not that finding people was challenging, but nothing was in place. So I got this opportunity to kind of create structure and process and the high level overview of what things could look like for this company as it.
- [14:28]
B
Grew in Canada and what was like what kind of mandate were you given? Like what were they looking for?
- [14:33]
A
Yeah, their whole thing when you get hired was it's harder to get a job here than it is to get into Harvard. That was. That's their whole sentence. And I don't know that the interview process felt like that. I don't know, I didn't go to Harvard, so I can't imagine that. But it was a, I would say was a fairly standard interview process. But the way they want you to feel and what they tried really hard to execute in their onboarding is like, congratulations, you're here, you're in this room. And not a lot of people get.
- [14:59]
B
To be in this room.
- [15:00]
A
So that was sort of like the vibe and it felt really good at the time. And then, you know, I learned a lot in that role. And I was a part of a mass layoff, so I spent years building this function. And then they ended up, like, essentially axing it and putting everything back in California.
- [15:16]
B
Wow. How many people did you hire for them?
- [15:18]
A
Thousands.
- [15:19]
B
And from what level to what level?
- [15:21]
A
Yeah, and this was like, everything from service people at, like, the car level, like detailers, like, all the way up to, like, executives.
- [15:27]
B
Wow.
- [15:27]
A
So that was a wild journey. And I think, I mean, when you. You notice flags once you're out of a situation too, Right. Like when you leave. And so it was such an incredible learning opportunity. But then while I was there, there was so many layoffs, and so it's like I almost should have seen it coming.
- [15:40]
B
Right. So they would hire.
- [15:42]
A
Project based hiring, essentially.
- [15:43]
B
Yeah.
- [15:44]
A
So, like, this car, this model is releasing. We need to hire 5,000 people to get this done.
- [15:48]
B
Was Elon involved in that? Like, in terms of, like, building out the mission statement, the manifesto, what people should be.
- [15:54]
A
He spoke at. Oh, my gosh, the word talent. Like town halls. Yeah, Like a sort of.
- [15:59]
B
For Tesla.
- [16:00]
A
Yeah. And so I was always in Fremont. That's where I had to go. And yeah, you'd go and he'd be on stage and he'd be trying to motivate everybody. But I, I never really was involved. Like, anyone I was building, like, culture or strategy with would have been just like, on the HR side. He wasn't. I don't. I didn't see him involved in that side.
- [16:15]
B
But people, everyone there, like, like, they wanted you to. Wanted the people to feel, like, lucky to have a job.
- [16:21]
A
That's probably the best way I would describe it. It was sort of like, congratulations, oh my gosh, you made it into this room. And I did feel that way because it worked. Like, it felt great. I was like, a lot of people wanted this job and I got to have this job. That's incredible. And.
- [16:32]
B
Oh, but I mean, for the people that you're hiring, do they all come from Ivy Leagues? Do they all come from.
- [16:37]
A
No, I think not necessarily. Yes, some people, but no, there was no sort of theme in that way. No expectation in that way, but just like the vibe to the people we were bringing, it was like, congratulations, like, you've made it.
- [16:50]
B
Now are people able? Like, if I were somebody who was looking for a job, right, Unemployed, would I be able to. How do. Like, would I be able to call a recruitment agency? Like, how do you find your candidates?
- [17:03]
A
Yeah, great question. So this is a super misconception too. So the way agencies work. Well, you were in one, so.
- [17:09]
B
But for everyone else, oh my God, a hundred years.
- [17:11]
A
So clients hire us. So like Lululemon would hire me to hire for their people. So the candidates aren't paying anything.
- [17:18]
B
Right.
- [17:18]
A
So like, the candidates were with like, we're given a role and then we're like, great, we need to find candidates. But you can still reach out because you're still building my pipeline and helping.
- [17:25]
B
So. But Right. How do you find your people? Do you poach from other companies? Do you go on LinkedIn? Like, how do you find people that you could even interview for these job opportunities?
- [17:34]
A
LinkedIn's definitely a big. There's like alumni job boards, or if you're in design, you're looking on behance, you're kind of picking specific job boards for the type of industry you're hiring in. But honestly, LinkedIn is a ton of it. And then just who you've. The secret sauce to recruitment is just keeping in touch with people. So really just networks. I think the strongest recruiters just have years and years of these strong networks. And so a lot of the time we'll get a new role. I don't know, we get accountants a lot, so we need another accountant. It's like, oh, great. I can think of 15 people to reach out to before I even have to go on LinkedIn. But if you're thinking about platforms, I'd say LinkedIn's are like our most used.
- [18:07]
B
So, like, if something is looking for. So you kind of just keep like a Rolodex or like a database of people that you've known over the years that kind of, kind of, kind of left an impression.
- [18:19]
A
Yeah, or. And even.
- [18:21]
B
Or that you've placed somewhere else or replaced.
- [18:22]
A
Yeah, because you keep in contact with someone and in six years they may want a new job, whatever that looks like. Or two more recently. But we also have sort of open forums. Like, a lot of people will reach out, as you said. They can be like, I need help. It's like, great, here's a link. Can you fill this out? And it has like, what's your name? What's your contact information? What type of job are you looking for? Do you want to be remote? Where do you live? What's your compensation expectation? Can you list some metrics on, like, why you've been successful, etc. And then we're also like, do you want to be anonymous? Whatever it looks like. And then I sort of have a pipeline from that. And when I have a new role I can run it through that and see, like, who matches. So it's really selfishly. It really builds my pipeline quickly so I can hire people faster for companies. But also we get to help people too, which is nice.
- [19:05]
B
So what's the percentage that you actually go after, like, poach through other people? Like you call people who have jobs already versus people who are. Who don't have a job?
- [19:14]
A
I would say more often than not, they are employed.
- [19:16]
B
They are employed because it's one of my big theories in life, it's always easier to get a job when you have a job.
- [19:23]
A
I. 100%.
- [19:23]
B
It's easier to find a boy or a boyfriend or a girlfriend when you have a relationship. But it's like, it's like. It's like the law of, like Murphy's Law, right? Like, when you're. When you're. When you have it, it's available. All these, all these opportunities are available when you have nothing. Nothing. Like, do you want to know why?
- [19:39]
A
I think it is part of it.
- [19:40]
B
Why?
- [19:41]
A
I think when you are reasonably happy people, if they're willing to take a call with me, they're not perfectly happy in their role.
- [19:48]
B
Right.
- [19:49]
A
And. Or sometimes they're just networking, but.
- [19:50]
B
Or they're curious.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah, that's part of it. But there is something like, if you don't need it, you don't care, I guess in the same way. And you're so much more confident in the way you communicate and you interview better, so.
- [20:01]
B
Exactly.
- [20:01]
A
Because I really believe that for sure.
- [20:03]
B
I think. I think with life, right, like when you. When you're, like when you're not desperate.
- [20:07]
A
You just don't care. And I mean, not. Not desperate's the right way. Yeah, that's a good word.
- [20:11]
B
When you're not desperate for a job or a relationship or a date or whatever, you know, a house, whatever it is, whatever it is, the opera, like, the. You. You handle yourself differently, right? Like, the best version of you is actually presented number one. And like, that kind of like, laissez faire attitude is way more attractive than this. Like, you know, this, like, hint of desperation, but you can hear it.
- [20:36]
A
And people like, obviously there's so many layoffs in the world and all these things, but, like, if people get to the point where they're like, I don't even care. I'll take a pay cut. And it's like, just know your worth and have confidence and you'll come across.
- [20:44]
B
It's hard to say that, though, when someone needs money, though, right? But like, of course, 100%. But then they always say like the best are always taken. So you have to go like when I build, when I, when I build out brands and companies and stuff like that, because I do a lot of stuff with lots of different companies, especially in the tech space, I find all the good tech people are actually taken. It's really, really hard to find like super good people who can like build apps and like people like that. There's like, there are certain things that require people act. I'm going to change what I said earlier. I would say 95% of jobs, it comes down to, you know, the EQ and the likability and the work ethic. But there are those jobs that you just need hardcore ability, talent. Like accountants are one of these. Tech, in terms of building an app, very important to have.
- [21:33]
A
And the thing is when you are super niche, like if especially on the tech side, they're reached out to all the time.
- [21:39]
B
Totally.
- [21:39]
A
So even on LinkedIn, you'll see it'll literally be like, stop emailing me. Like, it's like people. And so I think in general recruiters kind of, they have a bad feeling about us a lot of the time. But I was in tech recruiting for a while and you just keep in touch with people. And for me I find the best way to like present an opportunity to someone is just be super transparent. So those people, and I'm super quick, I'm like, here's the company, here's the job posting, here's the pay. It's remote. If this has any interest to you, let me know or refer me. Otherwise just like tell me to go away.
- [22:08]
B
Right.
- [22:08]
A
And most people would be like, not right now. Thanks. Thanks Colleen. Like, no. Or like, here's a friend who's looking and you can just keep it short and sweet. But like so many recruiters reach out with very vague information. Like, hey, I have this really exciting opportunity and it's like, just tell me the company and tell me the pay and if I'm interested, I'll let you know.
- [22:24]
B
That's exactly.
- [22:24]
A
I've never understood recruiters who aren't direct. It makes no sense to me.
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, like short and sweet. Yeah, yeah. So can you tell me some of the industries that are a good idea for people to kind of look into that are, that are good, good places for people that maybe be able to find a good paying job?
- [22:41]
A
Yeah. So I think there's, I mean just we've been talking about tech. Tech pays really well at all levels.
- [22:47]
B
Give me some jobs that people maybe haven't thought of or people who are maybe in college or, you know, this is what I guess let me just kind of like what I'm thinking is like people are thinking of the same five jobs, you know, when they come in, like, am I going to be a lawyer, am I going to be a doctor, am I going to be an accountant, Am I going to be an influencer? That's a big one now. YouTuber.
- [23:05]
A
Yeah.
- [23:05]
B
These are all the things that people are actually doing. But there's a whole variety and array of jobs out there and careers I should call it, not just jobs that people don't know about because they just don't know what they don't know. So the way I want to frame this question is different. I want you to tell us some careers or career paths or industries or areas that would be very lucrative for people to maybe explore.
- [23:31]
A
Yeah, I think just starting from the world I know really well is I think recruiting is such an interesting space because you don't need a formal education. If you have one, that's great. But you don't need it, right? Like recruiting, there's no designation you need.
- [23:44]
B
To be a recruiter.
- [23:45]
A
Yeah, there's no designation you need. And you know, I have people in my life who like have all these letters after their name and they went to school for 15 years and it's like I make significantly more like, I mean that in a. It's coming across as not humble but also a politician.
- [24:00]
B
Don't be humble on this show. I want you to tell us the truth.
- [24:03]
A
Yeah. So it's like I especially in agency recruitment because a lot of it's commission based. So if you're confident and you're great at what you do and it's uncapped commission, you're just going to keep earning. But the other side, like this is like a less conventional path. But I feel like so many trades rules are ignored, like being an electrician or a plumber or those pieces, they're making a significant amount of money and you're able to get educated or the requirements you need in a much faster time frame. And so I think that's something that's kind of ignored and also needed. So we work with influencers all the time, we hire for them all the time. At some point that's not going to be a job anymore. And you know what's always going to be needed is those like essential. So like what's essential that's going to be needed all the time?
- [24:38]
B
Can I tell you? Okay, I want to like, you Said a couple things that I want to just touch on. It's really interesting. I have a very good friend living in Canada, in Toronto. Her and I were really close when I was living in Canada many years ago. She was a recruiter, an executive search recruiter. Is that the same thing?
- [24:55]
A
Yeah, some people just do executive search. Like we do everything from entry level through executive search.
- [25:00]
B
She did. She was a Zac. She did with either one, the executive search. Actually, no, she was a recruiter because she did only tech stuff.
- [25:07]
A
Yeah.
- [25:07]
B
She was making so much money, it was absurd. Like it would. It was shocking how much money that she was making as a recruiter because of the commission stat. Like you could make so much money if you're good. That's the first thing I was going to say. So really what you need to be is tenacious because you have to be able to call people. Also remember people.
- [25:28]
A
Remembering is so key. I always say this to people. Like, everyone's like, how are you good at your job? Like, what does it mean to be successful? Successful in recruitment? It's really just keeping in touch with people and remembering details.
- [25:36]
B
But that's a skill and it's 100 to keep in touch, to be able to follow up, to maintain a relationship. These are like fundamental. These are like, to me, these are life skills that like make the biggest difference. Right. And so, and also be good at sales. Right. You gotta sell yourself, you gotta sell the company the opportunity. Like this is to me a massive area for people who are listening and they don't know what to potentially maybe look into for a job. Being a recruiter is a great option, I think. And also if you're placing jobs that are like a hundred thousand plus, you're making a major commission off of that. Like, what's the commissions you guys make?
- [26:14]
A
So as a company, like from a business owner, we charge 20% of the base salary and then your recruiters will get anywhere from like 10 to 15% of that.
- [26:21]
B
Yeah, that's great money. The other thing I find very interesting is what you're saying to your point, plumbers, electricians. Do you know that how impossible it is to find a plumber?
- [26:30]
A
Right.
- [26:30]
B
We needed. I needed a plumber for my house. We were waiting three weeks, a month maybe, because they're so in demand and. And these plumbers are making a lot of money.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah. Especially in the, in the emergency space as well. Because at that time you're like, I'll pay whatever it is, please.
- [26:47]
B
Yeah, but like there are, I think plumbers now, there are plumbers And I think this is pretty much like universal now. Like everywhere are making more money than doctors.
- [26:57]
A
Right. And so I think there's. That's probably just an underrated. I mean when you talk about recruiters, I feel like it's. No one wakes up and is like, I'm going to be a recruiter when I grow up. So that's probably. But I, I think you're right. There's sort of like my parents want me to be a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or whatever it is. And I think there's like some like underrated pieces that are missing.
- [27:14]
B
By the way, teachers make no money.
- [27:15]
A
And they should make more than all of us.
- [27:17]
B
That's by the way, one of these jobs, or I should say careers that's like that. They pay them nothing and they deserve so much more even. Unbelievable.
- [27:26]
A
My kids are younger, like they're not in school yet. And I just even think about the daycare people. Yeah, I'll leave, I'll drop my kids off sometimes and everyone's crying and they're. I'm like, you're not paid enough.
- [27:34]
B
They're not paid enough.
- [27:35]
A
Like I, I don't know how I go crazy with two of them.
- [27:38]
B
Oh, me too.
- [27:39]
A
I can't imagine like 15 anyway, I can.
- [27:42]
B
But there are some people who are just like really, like, they have a lot of patience. If you're somebody who has a lot of patience and just loves kids, it's a great job. Me, I would strangle every child in there, including myself. I'd be the worst person to work in a gatecare. But I do find that interesting. So there's. In that trades world, you're talking electricians, you're talking plumbers, carpenters.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah. And I think like even maybe less, we did some landscape hiring for a while and so like maybe not like direct like laborers, but like that can grow into sort of like a more niche trade. But I just think in general people overlook those essential pieces for things that are needed. Yeah. I don't know. And I think there are key industries, like if you're thinking more on the corporate side, like anything with a commission. So like recruitment's the same way because it's sales. But anything in sales where you have the ability, if you're great at what you do, you're going to do well. Not everyone's going to do well in these industries because the base salary is not a lot. You need the commission.
- [28:33]
B
You also have to be a self starter.
- [28:35]
A
Yeah.
- [28:35]
B
And hungry. Yeah, hungry. But also like entrepreneurial because it is your business that you're growing and it may be working within another business or just on your own. Like, this is. To me, it's like being an entrepreneur. Right? Like these some. Everyone thinks it's sexy. Oh, I'm on a, like, it's become a very, like, hashtag worthy, you know, word. Like, I'm an entrepreneur.
- [28:55]
A
Yeah.
- [28:55]
B
Do you know how hard it is to be an entrepreneur?
- [28:57]
A
I think about this all the time. Like when I first started my company and everyone's like, oh, my gosh, you're doing it. And you're like, do you know how hard this is? I'm crying in the shower and trying to figure out what to do every day.
- [29:05]
B
Yeah.
- [29:06]
A
And you find your groove. But it's like you go from being. So if I'm an expert in recruitment and then I start a company, all of a sudden I have to be an expert in finance and tech and marketing. And you're not. And you're learning and you're making so many mistakes. But if you're. It's not for everyone, but if you have the mental, like an entrepreneurial spirit or whatever you want to call it, I think really the word is resilience. If you can be a resilient person, you can make it happen. But I don't remember the stat, but it's something like wildly high that the number of people who try to start a business and fail.
- [29:31]
B
They do.
- [29:31]
A
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
But you have to, you have to have the, the thick skin, the stomach for it. I also, you know, I don't know if you know this either, but I did. My whole brand is around being bold.
- [29:41]
A
Right.
- [29:41]
B
Okay. And I did this TED talk on being bold is actually more important than being intelligent and all these things. And this whole idea was behind this, the 10% target, which is this idea that you make 10 attempts at whatever you want most. And so the idea behind it is that one of two things happen. Either you get the opportunity that you go after, or another thing will present itself that you never even knew existed by just going through the process. And the, and, and the, the nice thing is what happens when you do that process is you end up failing. And you get comfortable with failing because now you already have like some kind of framework where you're like, okay, I'm making 10 attempts. So now that's what I'm doing. So if I fail at the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, that's okay. And then you actually teach yourself to become immune to failing.
- [30:34]
A
I love that.
- [30:35]
B
Yeah. And so. And I started to talk to all these, like, big sales companies because, like, that's really, at the end of the day for people to become or for people to make a shot or, you know, give it a shot. Or it's about learning how to be resilient and how to be. How to be okay with failure.
- [30:52]
A
And you're not going to get anywhere if you don't fail.
- [30:54]
B
Not first of all, like the majority of people that I know, including myself, I fail 99.9% of the time. You just need to win once, but you will win eventually. But it's a numbers game. It's volume. The more you take a shot, the better your chance is at actually getting.
- [31:10]
A
That shot, you know, and having something work out. I had somebody like an old mentor tell me once to look at. To look at like a setback or a failure as feedback.
- [31:18]
B
As opposed to feedback is feedback.
- [31:20]
A
And I. It resonated with me at the time. And it's like, if you can find a way to. Okay, this didn't go well, but what can I learn from it? Because I'm gonna do it again.
- [31:30]
B
Yeah.
- [31:30]
A
Yeah.
- [31:30]
B
I also think it's also like, we can talk about. I feel like all this, like people just try to like, oh, setback is, you know, is either feedback or. Or setback is a feedback or like. Or there's all these like, other cliche things.
- [31:43]
A
Similar, like.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah, like cliches. Like, you know, like, it's when you're, like when you fall, when you get up, it's like redirection and all these things. At the end of the day, it's really simple. It's like the more shots you make, the. The better chance you're going to get well and also successful.
- [32:01]
A
If you don't ask for it, it's never going to ask.
- [32:03]
B
You don't get. It's like the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Right. Like maybe it's a Canadian thing.
- [32:08]
A
Yeah.
- [32:08]
B
You know.
- [32:09]
A
You know what cliche I truly like? There's so many. That's the one that I. Yeah, we should. Yeah. But the one I. That always has resonated with me too, which I hate to. It makes you so uncomfortable. But you're not going to grow if you're not uncomfortable. So like growth is going to. Whatever that is. Growth happens out of your comfort zone or whatever it is. But it's. It's so true.
- [32:26]
B
Well, a hundred percent, like, that's what I was saying earlier. It's like when you are practicing the. These 10 attempts and you're failing at them, the more you do something, the less uncomfortable it becomes. Right. So like me at this point, like, I'll do anything. I don't give a shit. Like, if it works, it works. If not, it doesn't even. Like, it's like, no.
- [32:44]
A
It's like you're confident, too, which I think takes. That's a skill.
- [32:47]
B
But you know what? Confidence comes from being competent. And I feel like I've. I've built that muscle of competence because I've tried and practiced and practiced so much that the more you practice, you get better and better. And so now I feel like I'm really competent at failing. So now it's like, okay, that's my superpower. I don't care when I fail. So if I try to do something or I ask for something and I don't get it, well, okay, well, at least I feel better about myself. That at least I made. Yeah. Like, and I think that rejection is always better than regret. I never.
- [33:23]
A
Right.
- [33:24]
B
I never want to look back at something and be like, you know what?
- [33:27]
A
What if I wish I did?
- [33:29]
B
Yeah. Or what if. What if I tried that? Or, like, what if that happened, like, on your deathbed, you're not thinking about all the things that you did. You think about all the things you did not do.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah.
- [33:38]
B
You know, like, oh, if I only apologize to this person, spend more time.
- [33:43]
A
With this, or did this.
- [33:44]
B
Yes. So regret. Like, I find regret to be a really horrible gut. Gutter. Gutter. Like, gutturally bad feeling. That's a word.
- [33:54]
A
Yeah.
- [33:54]
B
So I'll get rejected all day long. I don't care.
- [33:57]
A
Well, I think anyone who starts a small business knows all about rejection.
- [34:01]
B
Well, you're right. So, like, you're so, like, this is why I like you, because you are. You are an entrepreneur because you started this business. You're a recruiter, which in itself, it's like a double whammy. Right. It's a lot of.
- [34:11]
A
No in your face.
- [34:12]
B
It's a lot of, like, being a recruiter right away, super difficult to start your own business. And then a recruitment business, which is all. All eat what you kill, period. End of story. Right.
- [34:22]
A
And it's a really saturated market.
- [34:24]
B
It's a. Is it?
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. Like, there are. I don't know. I don't know what number, but you, like, you could throw a stone and hit, like, 20 different agencies just within my, like, area where I live. And I think it's. So it's consistently something somebody told me, like, a competitor who's a friend of mine told me when I first Started my business. There's more than enough work for all of us. You just have to find your lane.
- [34:43]
B
Yeah.
- [34:43]
A
And it's so true. Like, you know, I think even a few years ago I would kind of work with anyone because I wanted a client.
- [34:48]
B
Right.
- [34:48]
A
And I was like, sure. And then, you know, as I've kind of gained more success, I'm able to be like, I don't actually know that we're right for each other. I don't really like the way you treat your people, really in a kind way. So it's like I'm gonna like find my groove and my people and like find my space in it and sort of like, how can we differentiate? Like if we're not trying to be like everyone else, we don't want to work with everyone. We want to like be, I don't know, like curate kind of the type of clients we want to work with. So that's been cool too.
- [35:10]
B
That's like minded. Like you like. And can I ask you another question that I find? Yeah. I find it interesting because also the workforce has also changed a lot over the last few years, especially since COVID Right. Nobody wants to go into work. Everybody wants to work remotely. How does that impact employment?
- [35:33]
A
Yes. So just on like a, like geographical location, like the, the remote. If I'm given a role and you see it's remote first, it's always going to be easier. You can cast a wider net. Like it, you know, you can even like if they're in a different time zone, even you can shift hours. But like being remote allows for the largest candidate pool. A lot of companies have kind of fallen back into a hybrid model. So like coming into the office a couple days a week. But when we have companies, like we have a few clients and they're lovely, but it's sort of like, like demanding. Five days a week in office. Nobody wants that anymore. And so I think yes, there's some roles like nurses, like there's some roles you have to be in person, that kind of thing. But I do feel like I'm going to use the word flexibility instead of remote. Like I think the, this, the most attractive thing companies can offer is flexibility. And what I mean by that is not just where you work, but also time. Like even my own team. I know recruitment's a little bit like you just need your computer and your, and a phone, but it's sort of like I don't really care when you work or where you work. I'm going to know if you're doing your Job by the number of people you hire or you don't. And my employees, I feel one of the things they, you know, we do surveys a lot. Like, what do you like about being here? Like, what's working and what's not working? And I think it's like, if you give your team flexibility, they're going to feel trusted. And people who feel trusted want to do well for you because they want to be around you. So I think flexibility in terms of, like, yeah. The hours you work or like, what you need. Like, maybe I want to pick my kids up every day at three, but then I'm going to do a little work later in the evening because that works for me. Or I'm not going to work at all on Wednesday because I want to go do something, but I'll work a little bit on Sunday. So I think there's like, trust your team to get the job done and they will. As opposed to sort of setting rigid regulations. The companies that set those strict rules, I find, like, nobody's going to stay.
- [37:08]
B
But do the companies do better when their employees are in office versus hybrid or remote?
- [37:17]
A
I have found no success. Like, key indicators that are any different if someone's in an office versus not. Like, I think there are some industries where it's very useful to be at a table. Like, you know, if you're architects or reviewers, like, anything you can do in person, you can do on a computer, really. But, you know, like my husband, for instance, he's a civil engineer and he loves. He's like, I miss everyone in the meeting on the. Looking at the same piece of paper on the same table. He likes that kind of thing. So hybrid is great for him, but for me, there's no difference. And so I think it's for all it shows to me. And like, this is just my personal opinion. Maybe it's not popular, but I think it just shows that you don't trust your people to get their job done.
- [37:52]
B
I don't know. I think there's something to be said for two things. Employee morale.
- [37:56]
A
Yep.
- [37:57]
B
And also just camaraderie. Like.
- [38:01]
A
Yeah, I feel like, like from a culture.
- [38:03]
B
From a culture standpoint, because what happens is I find we're living in a more and more disconnected world as, like just in general.
- [38:11]
A
Yeah.
- [38:12]
B
And now we're putting the onus, like the. The rules are now on the employees, not the employers. Like, we're having a bend towards people's disinterest or desire to go into an office. And what I feel is happening is people are Becoming lazy. And they're. And they're not realizing that, like, they're the work. I mean, you're right. There's some jobs that. Yeah, it doesn't require to be back in the office, but it's not even so much about that. It's about creating community. Corporate culture.
- [38:47]
A
Corporate.
- [38:47]
B
Corporate culture is very hard to build when everybody is dispersed in their homes.
- [38:51]
A
And you never see each other. Yeah. It's like you hear companies, like, when they host their town halls or their big events, people feel. That's why. I think you're right. That why most companies have landed on hybrid, because people want both. So they want the ability to go to an appointment on Wednesday and work from home, but also be able to go into the office on Thursday and see their team. So I think that's probably why most of our clients have landed in that space, because the community feel does come back. Kind of depends who you are. So I've been remote since, like, way.
- [39:16]
B
Before COVID But you're at a sales job. It's different.
- [39:19]
A
Yeah, because I don't like going into an office. But that's just my personal opinion.
- [39:22]
B
I don't like. Listen, I hate the office. What I feel is then, like, you don't get a job that's office driven. But I think. But it's different when you are a salesperson because your bottom line is based. What you eat is based on how much you sell.
- [39:38]
A
That's right. Yeah.
- [39:38]
B
Okay, so then that doesn't require. There has to be some, like, malleability.
- [39:42]
A
Okay.
- [39:42]
B
But if it's a marketing job or if it's a job that's involving PR or whatever it is. I don't know. I'm just.
- [39:48]
A
Design. Yeah, like, design, whatever.
- [39:49]
B
Design's a great example. I feel like it's. It should. We are giving our. We're giving people way too much onus and flexibility at the employ. At the employer's experience. Like the, like, work life balance. Like, now people are, like, calling the shots. I don't want to work later than three. I don't want to work on Friday. I don't want to wear that to work. It's like, you know what? Then? Then don't get a job and you'll go hungry.
- [40:14]
A
This might not be the right place for you. If that, that, that. Yeah, I hear you. At what point is it too much?
- [40:18]
B
At what point, Like, I feel like what. The pendulum has now swung so far one direction that it's. It's becoming a real problem. Like, where it's. It's A different thing like, oh, I. The trigger is a safe spot, the safe places.
- [40:34]
A
Right.
- [40:35]
B
You know all of this kind of.
- [40:36]
A
Rhetoric, it is softer.
- [40:38]
B
It's softer, gentle.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah.
- [40:40]
B
Which I feel. And from all the research and data I've seen, I've seen people and companies actually plummet. Not they don't. They're not, they're not staying plateau. They're not actually like staying. They're not thriving. Let's put it.
- [40:55]
A
Yeah. I think there's, there's definitely a mindfulness. I don't know what the right word is. That wasn't there before in a certain way.
- [41:01]
B
I don't think mindfulness is the right word. Wokeness is another word.
- [41:04]
A
Yeah. I'm trying to think of the right word word.
- [41:05]
B
That's the word I'm thinking.
- [41:06]
A
But what I will say I agree and I disagree with you. I think like the piece you can still set. I need XXXXX accomplished by this time. It just how you get there. Like it.
- [41:18]
B
Right. There should be parameters. Yeah.
- [41:19]
A
I think like, you know, if you can't work on Friday because of what your life looks like, but you're still going to hit your deadline, then I don't really care. So I, I do think, I kind of think I'm a balance of how you're feeling and how like. And sort of.
- [41:29]
B
What's more, it's like I'm not where you are. Right.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah.
- [41:32]
B
I, I feel like I'm not a work, I'm not an office person, so.
- [41:35]
A
Right.
- [41:35]
B
And I, I know better to get a job.
- [41:38]
A
Well, you know, you're gonna do what you. What's going to work for your life.
- [41:40]
B
And also I, whatever money I make is my, is if I don't make money and I don't work.
- [41:45]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
B
Then I won't make money. And if I, if I do work, then I will make money.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah.
- [41:49]
B
But I'm, my personality is okay with that. A lot of these, A lot of people's personalities are not okay with that. Right.
- [41:56]
A
And it's not like aligning.
- [41:57]
B
It's not aligning because people, I think a lot of times people want to be again, entrepreneur. They want to be an entrepreneur, but they don't have the chops to actually do that. So they want a company to kind of pay them a salary, but then they don't want to like, they don't, they don't want to acquiesce to what it requires to have a salary to get this done. Yeah.
- [42:18]
A
Yep. No, I totally hear you. I think there's a. I Mean, it's like a tricky game a lot of companies are playing right now too, because they want to feel like they're inclusive and making sure everyone's feeling safe and everyone's feeling comfortable. But also there is a bottom line. It's not like where my brain keeps going too. Even myself. One of my biggest learnings in my company was I've kept people on for far too long. Yes. Because I'm super empathetic or I'll do work for them or I'll end up picking up the slack and then at some point I have to put my big curl pants on and remember I'm trying to run a company. And I think that's something as well. So there's this hard thing where you or one of my learnings or one of my areas of opportunity is I want people to like me and I need to. Why? Yeah, maybe I'm not for everyone and that's okay.
- [43:00]
B
Right.
- [43:01]
A
What I should be shifting more on is like, I want people to like my work and like my ethic and like my communication. And if they like me or not, it doesn't matter. And that's take. I'm still a work in progress on that point.
- [43:10]
B
I think we all have work in progress. But I guess my other question again was kind of like what I was saying is have you seen it more difficult to find or place people because of this new gentleman, Mindful, as you would put it? What was the other word that you used?
- [43:26]
A
Yeah, I'm trying to think of the right.
- [43:28]
B
This safe way.
- [43:30]
A
Yeah. Safe is a good way to put it.
- [43:31]
B
Safe.
- [43:31]
A
Yes and no. I think the Gen Z generation, I guess they'll just say no. And so yes, the roadblock would be like, okay, that doesn't work for you, then it's not the right opportunity for you. And I'd rather not place you because you're gonna quit anyway anyway. And we're waste time and resources. So I think if we're gonna find a silver lining, because that's my mentality would be like, it's just opening the door for the right people. So I think my job as a recruiter or my job if we're going to use sales, is I just need to paint the picture completely transparently. Like this is what it looks like and it works for you. It doesn't.
- [44:01]
B
Right.
- [44:02]
A
And I think as a sales tactic in general, you want the person to always feel like it's their decision.
- [44:06]
B
Right.
- [44:07]
A
Like, even if I'm guiding the process and I'm guiding the decision process, I Want you to always feel like you're.
- [44:11]
B
The one making sense.
- [44:12]
A
And so it's like here's exactly what it looks like. If this doesn't work for you, that's okay.
- [44:16]
B
Yeah.
- [44:16]
A
And I'm not going to be offended if this isn't the right opportunity for you. Here's why I think it is. And you can let me know if you want to have a conversation about it. And I will say there are like when I think about the senior C suite level, not even C suite but like just senior director VP level to like this younger generation, there is a difference in work ethic in terms of like what they are willing to do. Like commuting too. Covid really like when I first started my hiring and you know, the world was not on fire yet was 45 minute commute was normal. And now people are like, I'm not leaving my house. So that's definitely been different. So like if we have a role that's in office and it's like more than 30 minutes, we can't like search. I would say 30 minutes is like the max. People are willing to drive.
- [44:56]
B
Really?
- [44:56]
A
Yeah. And that's shifted a lot because it used to be like, you know, in Toronto people could live outside of the city and they would willingly commute in every day.
- [45:03]
B
And that's not a thing.
- [45:04]
A
Yeah, it's not a thing anymore.
- [45:05]
B
When I was living in Toronto when I was at the Raptors at the time.
- [45:08]
A
Oh fun.
- [45:09]
B
I remember people were coming in, taking them, they took like they were living in all these places that were. I can say the names, people won't know but like Oakville, this is all whatever it was. I know, I know you know, but 45 minutes to an hour and it was like kind of what they, what.
- [45:22]
A
You did and it was normal in all one care.
- [45:25]
B
Well it was not that they didn't care. It's what you had to do.
- [45:27]
A
Yeah. They knew it was a part of the.
- [45:29]
B
What was if you want, if you, if you wanted the job, like it was what was required of you. And this is my issue. It's like what is required. Like sometimes you're gonna have to go above and beyond what you want to do.
- [45:40]
A
Yeah.
- [45:40]
B
To get to where you want to be. And that's what I'm talking about. But like now this, there's a whole thing on like how Gen Z do you know that 26% of Gen Z are now bringing their parent to a job interview because they don't feel comfortable and confident enough to have an interview? Yeah, this is what's happening in, well in the US anyway. I don't know what the numbers are. You've never experienced anything like this?
- [46:07]
A
No, I have never experienced that before. I definitely have experienced like mid interview process. Sort of like, you know, you meet the hiring manager, you meet me and then you'll meet the hiring manager. And someone being like, you know, I don't feel like this is the right environment for me. Like pulling out before their interview. That's the most sort of like Gen Z behavior I've.
- [46:22]
B
Pulling out before the interview? Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
Like say an emergency came up and you had to move your meeting. You know, it's like I'm so sorry I have to push this. And then being like you don't respect my time so I'm not going to come to the interview today. And it could have been like the interview person like had to run to their kids daycare because their kid had to like anything. So I find there's like less, there's like a lack of empathy or maybe I don't know if that's.
- [46:42]
B
Hold on, you're telling me.
- [46:43]
A
Yeah.
- [46:44]
B
That someone that you are interviewing for a job, for them to have a job.
- [46:48]
A
Yeah.
- [46:49]
B
And you had to switch it. Let's just say to Cheddu, move it.
- [46:53]
A
And they were like, oh no, you obviously don't respect me.
- [46:55]
B
And see, this is the kind of bullshit that I'm talking about.
- [46:59]
A
No, I, I don't disagree with you. And I remember being like this isn't a personal attack on you. This is like the reality of this person's schedule and it happened.
- [47:06]
B
The fact that you're justifying it to this person, to me is even crazy. Like, right, let me get this straight. I'm going to help you find a job that you could pay your bills with and I don't because I had to reschedule and shift. You know, they're telling you now what's what. This is my, this is my problem with Gen Z, right?
- [47:22]
A
Yep. No, I think it's such terrible. What's interesting too is it's so like vastly different. Like you can tell in the way you communicate with people. And I think like there also is a whole new world of work that didn't exist when we were choosing our careers. Like to your point, like kids want to be influencers now.
- [47:38]
B
That wasn't a thing they want to be. Or in social media.
- [47:41]
A
Or in social media or like I don't know, paid to like sell a product and you know, gummy bear hair, whatever.
- [47:47]
B
Right. They want to either like, or they want it. There's other types of jobs out there, like social media managers or creators. Content creators is a big one, right? Content creators.
- [47:56]
A
Having young kids now, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. You're growing up in this whole world. Yeah, he's my oldest, is almost 4, so we're not there yet. But I do feel like it's just this whole other parenting dynamic. And so when you talk about the generational changes in the interview process or in the hiring force, does that come back to, like, parenting too? Which is interesting.
- [48:12]
B
It does. It kind of. I guess you're right. And, like, what jobs, what kind of careers kids are wanting to seek is there, like you said, very different than what it used to be. Like, it used to be doctor, lawyer, let's say.
- [48:24]
A
Yeah.
- [48:25]
B
Nurse.
- [48:25]
A
Oh. Now it's like, what can I. How can I get into AI or get into content creation?
- [48:30]
B
Content creation is a big one. Or the YouTuber. Yeah, AI is a big one. But AI is, like, going to be taking over, like, both of our jobs.
- [48:37]
A
Yeah.
- [48:38]
B
Like, we won't need. They won't need recruiters, they won't need podcasters, they won't need anything.
- [48:42]
A
I do feel like there is a reality where there's like, a human interaction that can't be replaced.
- [48:48]
B
Yeah.
- [48:48]
A
And 100%, like, even now I use ChatGPT and different AI tools to help me write more efficiently or create content or whatever that looks like. But I do think there's a way for us to work. I mean, maybe I'm being naive, but, like, harmoniously with AI without fully replacing. And I think, yes, there's going to be a ton of jobs that are replaced, but I also think it's going to create different opportunities. So I think there, again, maybe I'm just like, like, cautiously optimistic all of the time, but I do think as much as things are going to shift, I do think it's still going to create new, new opportunities.
- [49:17]
B
Well, what I would think would be a really great area to get involved with is how to use AI, because someone's going to have to, like, I would think, manually work it. Right. So, like, even though AI is going to be taking over a lot of jobs, Right. And they have, they are, they are already being like, to your point, like, I use it when I'm. When I need to do a presentation or some type of really huge communication piece or, like, research or all these things.
- [49:44]
A
Research has been so useful.
- [49:45]
B
Research is so, so useful. But there has. You have to know how to use it effectively. So having people to actually, like, use it or teach it or it's very, very valuable.
- [49:57]
A
Or I think too, like, when I'm thinking about my own future. Or your own future, too, where you're like, okay, so what are podcasters or what are recruiters going to need specifically help from AI? And how can I monetize that?
- [50:08]
B
Yeah.
- [50:08]
A
And I don't know the answer, but, like, that's something I think about a lot. My husband and I talk about it. He's like, I know, but what are you going to need? Like, how are recruitment and AI are going to be partners? And how can you be the one to start that platform?
- [50:17]
B
Exactly.
- [50:18]
A
I don't know. I'd love to. I need to figure it out.
- [50:20]
B
But it's a way to kind of. So you're utilizing AI, but in a way that also incorporates a human person.
- [50:27]
A
Yeah. Because I. I mean, I'm hopeful that not all of us will be completely. Yeah.
- [50:32]
B
Well, like I said, I think that there are going to have to be people that man the AI or. Yeah. Or keep on, like, creating versions and versions of it or, you know, the truth is, like, you can, like a layman's person, like me going on AI to research something.
- [50:49]
A
Yeah.
- [50:49]
B
Is very different than someone who really knows how to use it. Well. And they're very. They know exactly. Specifically how to do it.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah.
- [50:56]
B
And they will get way better, more unique information. You know, you're already seeing it too.
- [51:02]
A
Though, like, those master, like, masterclasses available being, like, how to, like, use AI and how to be better at it.
- [51:07]
B
And I think we.
- [51:08]
A
It's kind of one of those situations where we kind of got to get on board and. But I think there's. We're in the middle of this cool gap opportunity from, like, an employment and workforce perspective is like, there is a way for us to, like, monetize what this looks like. I just don't know the answer.
- [51:21]
B
I know. Well, it's a work in progress.
- [51:23]
A
I'll let you know when I figured out. Thank you.
- [51:25]
B
Well, okay, so thank you. Let me know what other things can we. Can you teach us or that we can glean from you in terms of the workforce, what we could be looking. Is there anything else that we can, like, give our audience?
- [51:37]
A
Yeah, I think we touched on it briefly. But, like, when we're talking about emotional intelligence, just two things. One, on the client side. So, like, on the hiring side, we need to let go a little bit of the classic resume that has the exact same job title and the work experience. You need and focus a little bit more on what's transferable. That's one of the things I feel like companies aren't doing. And so I think we need to find a way. In your interview process, is there a way to talk about resiliency and behavioral concepts and social constructs and bringing that into that in addition to what they technically need? And then the piece on the candidate side that I would say that I think is we touched on this, but I will not ever stop talking about the power of your network. And so if you're all the way from a new grad, if you're a new grad and you're looking for a job, who do you know at the company you're looking for? And how can you get a direct connection? Because that's going to go further than your resume, all the way up to those senior executive levels. It's like, how are you communicating? And the way we all know each other is the way you're going to get ahead. I hate to say that, but it is who you know to a certain extent and even my own client base. When I first started, I literally just reached out to everyone I've never met ever.
- [52:46]
B
Essentially, it's not what you know.
- [52:47]
A
So I started this company and like, it was anyone want to help me? And a lot of it's a slow game. Right. Like, I have clients even just this year who, like, I reached out to like three years ago. And they're like, hey, you know what? I am ready now. And you're like, great, I'm glad I kept. I got. It's like that fine line when you don't want to be annoying in recruiting. Like, you want to. It's like, I want to be like, pushy to a certain extent, but I want you to still want to hear from me.
- [53:05]
B
See, this is the EQ part, right? Like, if you teach that. Because that's like a very. That's a skill to know how much to do where you're not pushy.
- [53:14]
A
Yeah.
- [53:15]
B
Versus annoy and. Or annoying.
- [53:17]
A
Well, because I think you try to put yourself in the other side of it. What would I want to hear? And like, I think again, making people feel like it's their choice too.
- [53:24]
B
Right.
- [53:25]
A
So it's like, if you don't want to hear from me, no problem. Please just let me know.
- [53:28]
B
Exactly. But it's really important to really build out your network. I think, like, you, like we say, there's a reason why I believe this cliche. It's not what you know, it's who you know?
- [53:37]
A
Yeah.
- [53:37]
B
And it's about, like, networking well. And I always say that everybody could be a conduit to someone else, so it's not who you're speaking to at that exact moment, but they have a whole network, and then that person has a whole network. So always leave another meeting with another name. Yeah, that's what I always tell people.
- [53:53]
A
I love that.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah. But thank you so much, Colleen, for coming on. I really appreciate this information. This was really fun. I hope people have gleaned a lot of. I think they have. They've gleaned a lot of actionable things of what other areas they can look at or look into that maybe they haven't thought of. Where do people find you?
- [54:10]
A
Yeah. So our two main platforms would be LinkedIn and Instagram. So Instagram is at the lynchpin company, and then on LinkedIn, it's just the linchpin company. So please come find us and follow along.
- [54:21]
B
Thank you so much. I'm following you, of course. You're welcome. I love this. I think it's very helpful. I like to give people things that they can actually utilize and things that are helpful, and this is definitely one of them, especially in the time we're in now. So thank you so much.
- [54:33]
A
Thank you.
- [54:34]
B
Bye.
- [54:40]
A
It.