Episode 465: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Why Everyone's Playing Victim (And How to Stop) - Habits and Hustle

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle
Episode 465: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Why Everyone's Playing Victim (And How to Stop)
Release Date: July 8, 2025
Host: Tony Robbins
Guest: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, Cognitive Psychologist
Book Discussed: Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential

1. Introduction

In Episode 465 of Habits and Hustle, host Tony Robbins welcomes Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a renowned cognitive psychologist and author of Rise Above. Tony expresses his admiration for Scott's ability to simplify complex psychological concepts, highlighting his expertise in intelligence and self-actualization.

Tony Robbins [02:10]: "Scott's new book Rise Above did not disappoint. Thank you for being here today."

2. Understanding Self-Actualization

The conversation begins with a deep dive into self-actualization. Scott emphasizes that self-actualization is a personal journey without a fixed protocol, requiring individuals to listen to their inner selves and trust their instincts.

Scott Barry Kaufman [02:31]: "There is no protocol to self-actualization. Only you can understand and figure out what is the bridge that you want to take."

He also relates self-actualization to his course at Columbia University, The Science of Living Well, underlining its connection to leading a fulfilled life.

3. The Victim Mindset: Definition and Impact

Scott defines the victim mindset as a state where individuals blame external forces for their problems, hindering their ability to move forward with purpose. He contrasts this with an empowerment mindset, which focuses on productive ways to advance despite adversities.

Scott Barry Kaufman [07:11]: "When you have a victim mindset, you are blaming all of your problems, your current problems, on some external force."

4. Attachment Styles and Their Influence on Self-Esteem

The discussion shifts to attachment styles, exploring their genetic and environmental influences. Scott explains that anxious attachment and low self-esteem often feed into each other, creating a cyclical effect that impacts personal growth.

Scott Barry Kaufman [24:13]: "Attachment is a whole different area beast... they feed off each other, but they're definitely related."

5. Narcissism: Types, Benefits, and Implications

Scott distinguishes between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is linked to leadership and personal well-being, whereas vulnerable narcissism is associated with depression and self-esteem issues. He shares insights from his research, suggesting that grandiose narcissists can possess significant self-belief without negative repercussions.

Scott Barry Kaufman [14:02]: "Grandiose narcissism is associated with leadership skills. It's associated with greater well-being."

6. Generational Shifts: From Self-Esteem to Victimhood

Analyzing cultural and generational changes, Scott observes a shift from Generation X's focus on self-esteem to younger generations' inclination towards a victim mindset. He attributes this to factors like over-praise, coddling, and the reduction of resilience through lack of play.

Scott Barry Kaufman [17:48]: "That has morphed into a generation of vulnerable narcissists."

7. The Role of Parenting in Shaping Self-Esteem and Narcissism

Parenting styles significantly influence children's self-esteem and tendencies towards narcissism. Scott explains that parental warmth and genuine acceptance foster secure self-esteem, while overvaluation—excessive praise for unearned achievements—can lead to grandiose narcissism.

Scott Barry Kaufman [22:17]: "Over praise... relates to grandiose narcissism."

8. The Impact of Social Media on Victim Mindset

Social media platforms often reward expressions of victimhood, providing users with sympathy and attention. This reinforcement contributes to the normalization and escalation of the victim mindset in society.

Scott Barry Kaufman [35:40]: "Social media is rewarding victim mindset."

9. Toxic Activism and the Dark Triad

Scott introduces the concept of narcissistic activism, which intersects with the Dark Triad personality traits: narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. He differentiates toxic activism, characterized by entitlement and aggression towards opposing views, from healthy, constructive activism.

Scott Barry Kaufman [38:23]: "Toxic activism... correlated with the dark triad."

10. Therapy vs. Coaching: Paths to Empowerment

The conversation explores the effectiveness of therapy compared to coaching. Scott critiques certain modern therapeutic approaches like affirming therapy, which may lack mechanisms for personal growth and accountability. In contrast, his self-actualization coaching focuses on forward movement and empowerment.

Scott Barry Kaufman [45:58]: "I prefer coaching... very forward looking as opposed to past looking."

11. Shame vs. Guilt: Psychological Implications

Scott differentiates between shame and guilt, explaining that guilt is productive and relates to specific actions, whereas shame involves a negative self-perception often fueled by societal judgments. He highlights the detrimental effects of shame on personal development and social interactions.

Scott Barry Kaufman [56:01]: "Guilt is more productive... shame is something different."

12. Cultivating Psychological Flexibility

Psychological flexibility, the ability to adapt to changing circumstances and align actions with personal values, is essential for resilience and growth. Scott discusses strategies to develop this flexibility, countering experiential avoidance.

Scott Barry Kaufman [61:33]: "Psychological flexibility is important... not the way to growth."

13. Redefining Intelligence: Beyond IQ

Scott advocates for a broader understanding of intelligence, emphasizing neurodiversity and intellectual curiosity over traditional IQ measures. He argues that intelligence encompasses various strengths not captured by standard assessments, promoting a more inclusive view of human potential.

Scott Barry Kaufman [67:23]: "We need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence."

14. Habits, Authenticity, and Personal Responsibility

The dialogue concludes with a focus on the importance of habits, authenticity, and self-belief in achieving personal success. Scott urges individuals to connect deeply with themselves, embrace their complete selves, and take responsibility for their growth.

Scott Barry Kaufman [69:52]: "Connecting with yourself... take responsibility for your whole self."

15. Conclusion and Final Insights

Tony Robbins wraps up the conversation by praising Scott's comprehensive insights and encouraging listeners to engage with his work. Scott shares his ongoing projects, including his Substack Beautiful Minds and his upcoming full-time role at Columbia Barnard College.

Tony Robbins [73:13]: "The book is great. Rise Above is really, really good. Keep on doing what you're doing."

Notable Quotes:

Self-Actualization:
"There is no protocol to self-actualization. Only you can understand and figure out what is the bridge that you want to take."
[02:31]
Victim Mindset:
"When you have a victim mindset, you are blaming all of your problems, your current problems, on some external force."
[07:11]
Narcissism:
"Grandiose narcissism is associated with leadership skills. It's associated with greater well-being."
[14:02]
Generational Shifts:
"That has morphed into a generation of vulnerable narcissists."
[17:48]
Parenting and Narcissism:
"Over praise... relates to grandiose narcissism."
[22:17]
Social Media's Role:
"Social media is rewarding victim mindset."
[35:40]
Toxic Activism:
"Toxic activism... correlated with the dark triad."
[38:23]
Shame vs. Guilt:
"Guilt is more productive... shame is something different."
[56:01]
Psychological Flexibility:
"Psychological flexibility is important... not the way to growth."
[61:33]
Redefining Intelligence:
"We need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence."
[67:23]
Authenticity and Responsibility:
"Connecting with yourself... take responsibility for your whole self."
[69:52]

This episode offers profound insights into overcoming a victim mindset through self-actualization, understanding attachment styles, distinguishing different forms of narcissism, and redefining intelligence. Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman's expertise provides listeners with actionable strategies to empower themselves and realize their full potential amidst a culture increasingly inclined towards victimhood and toxic activism.

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Transcript502 lines

[00:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.
[00:10]
Tony Robbins
Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therassage. Their tri light panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach, cramps, shoulder, ankle, Red light therapy is my go to. Plus it also has amazing anti aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therasage Trilite everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable and it's really effective. Head over to therasage.com right now and use code be bold for 15% off. This code will work site wide. Again, head over to Therasolage T H E R A s a g e.com and use code be bold for 15% off any of their products. Okay, so today we have somebody that I've been trying to get on for a long time. I don't know if you've known if you know that or not.
[01:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I know that. I didn't know that.
[01:55]
Tony Robbins
Okay. It's Scott Barry Kaufman. He's a cognitive psychologist. Yeah, his work is just really good. I don't even know how well in so many ways he talks about. I said that when you walked in about different types of intelligence, self actualization. He. And the way you break things down, I think is very, very like very good. To the point where you take something complicated and you can break it down in a simplistic way.
[02:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Try. I try. I'm also really nervous nerdy though. So it's. Well, it's okay, you know, but I definitely try to do exactly what you just said. So thank you.
[02:32]
Tony Robbins
It's working. Scott's new book is called Rise above Overcome a victim mindset. Empower yourself and realize your full potential. And like I said, like, if you have not read any of his books, this one also did not disappoint. So again, thank you for being here today.
[02:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yay. And real honor. It's a real honor. I had no idea you've wanted me on for so long.
[02:57]
Tony Robbins
I really did because there's, you know, the thing is, social media is a funny thing and a funny place. Right. And you know, when you for What I do especially, you meet a lot of people, you read a lot of things, and it's very. There's a lot of noise. So they're only like, for me, anyway, there's a few people that really stand out and you've been one of them. And I. And I really, like. I'm not just saying this because we're on a podcast and you're a guest in my show, but I really do it resonate. Your stuff resonates with me, and I think it's. I think it's great. So cool. Yeah. I want to start with something that you've talked about a lot, which is self actualization. And I just want to start off and open the podcast with how does somebody self actualize?
[03:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Wow, what a big question.
[03:46]
Tony Robbins
I know. And that's why I was like, that's why I said it's a big question to start with. And normally I kind of like ease into it.
[03:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Let me say this because I teach a course at Columbia University called the Science of Living well. And to me, living well is self actualizing. So I kind of view them as very similar things. And I will say that there is no protocol to self actualization. So I'm sorry for those. I just pissed off a bunch of bros. No, no, no. You can't optimize. You can't optimize actualization, you know, And I just wanted to start off there because I really believe in order to self actualize you and only you can walk that path. Only you can understand and figure out what is the bridge that you want to take. What bridge do you want to even create? You know, and that really takes a lot of listening to the deepest recesses of your soul. It takes a lot of really trusting yourself and listening to what I call self actualizing compass that I think each one of us has. But there is no podcast guru that is going to tell you how to self actualize. So I really want to answer that question that way. But we can help people and move in their own direction that's best for them. As a self actualization coach, I'm a self actualization coach. I want to help people move in the direction that is best suited for them and discover what is the direction best suited for them that we can help with.
[05:06]
Tony Robbins
So this is why I wanted to start off with that question, because in my opinion, you kind of self actualize. You know, it's true. And I kind of feel I did the same thing. You talk a lot even about in your new book, Rise above. You talk about how, you know, sometimes we can get pigeonholed into doing something and then it gets. And I don't know which, which part of the book you talk about this, but then it's really taking the onus on ourselves to break free from that and then do more and action.
[05:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[05:37]
Tony Robbins
And can you just talk a little bit about that whole thing and how you self actualize. And that's why I think you're such a good example of what happened with you and how you were in special ed program.
[05:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. When I was really young, I really didn't have much people. Many people believe in me. And I was in special ed for an auditory disability that I had. And there was a teacher that took me aside in ninth grade and she said, what are you still doing here? And she saw a higher potential in me that I didn't see in myself. But it really like set off this, this whole drive to kind of show people and myself what I was capable of. And I think a lot of self actualization is trusting that inner recesses of your soul. I really think there's something there. You know, there's something to not being a victim of your. Not, not. Not having a victim mindset, but turning within and really focusing your limited energy you have on this time on this planet, really actualizing what's within you. It breaks my heart to see how many people waste so much of this precious life that we've all been given through petty resentment, hostility, jealousy, trying to take others down. It breaks my heart because what I see in those people is a real squandering of their potential. Does that make sense?
[07:01]
Tony Robbins
It makes a lot of sense. And that's what you talk about. It's like, how. But so can you just maybe define what is a victim mindset? So people listening, maybe they'll be like, aha. Maybe that is what I'm doing.
[07:12]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Absolutely possible to have been victimized and not have a victim mindset. I want to make that very clear. It's. It's possible, you know, we go through horrible things in our lives, you know, and. And when you have a victim mindset, you are blaming all of your problems, your current problems, on some external force, whether it's in an individual or it's a group of people. And you don't have productive ways of moving forward with your life with purpose and intention because you spend so much of your time planning revenge and planning sort of some way to get back at the world that has wronged you. And so that's a victim mindset. And I really do Contrast that from what I call an empowerment mindset. And an empowerment mindset is not ignoring the terrible things that have happened to us. It's a very. Have you ever done improv?
[08:00]
Tony Robbins
I haven't, but I mean, I haven't, but I know what you're gonna say.
[08:05]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I know you need yes and yes and yes. You've. You've been through some terrible things in your life. And I believe in your greater potential for growth and development and resilience. We all have a lot more resilience within us than we realize. Often, unfortunately, it takes being really tested, you know, before we realize that. But let's not wait until we're tested.
[08:28]
Tony Robbins
Well, I find it's also some people are, they don't have the self awareness to even know that they are in this victim mindset loop. Right?
[08:38]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[08:38]
Tony Robbins
And it's, you know, people from the outside looking, looking at that person can say, look at that. You know, that's what they're doing. How do you overcome a victim mindset? And I guess it's a two parter. How do you even have self awareness enough to even know that you're in this victim mindset?
[08:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, self awareness takes a lot of meditation, takes a lot of patience and discussions and feedback. You're not going to get that feedback unless you put yourself out there on the line to fail and put yourself out there to face your fears. I'm a big believer in behavioral activation, that approach to self awareness, you know, where the best way to become self aware is to have it reflected back to you, even in a painful way. You know, for instance, I've recently taken up magic, you know, mental. I became a professional mentalist in the last year.
[09:33]
Tony Robbins
You did?
[09:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I read people's minds and so I go go out to restaurants and whatever. Sometimes just for fun, I'll go to bars and read people's minds and hey, can I read your mind? And then we do that. And sometimes I get horribly rejected. Some people are just not interested. They don't know what's going on, they're not into it, and it's totally fine. And being able to handle rejection but still get feedback because I want to be good.
[10:01]
Tony Robbins
Right. A couple things. First of all, I want you to read my mind, which I'm going to ask you about in two seconds. But yeah, I think I'm a big believer in that. Right. Like I think that we learn from our failures. Right. And the only way to get comfortable with failure is to fail. Right. We're not going to like get comfortable or Desensitize with it if we don't ever do it. You know, that's why I believe, like, sometimes, like, being mediocre is actually the best thing that could have happened because, you know, a. There's not, like, you'll always fall and you'll. They'll never, ever. You know, like, you don't have that same kind of pressure on you, so. But that's how you build resilience, in my opinion. Right?
[10:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Absolutely. Yeah. It sounds like you. You got the habits.
[10:43]
Tony Robbins
I got the habits. But wait, so could you really read my mind right now?
[10:46]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, well, maybe later I'll do.
[10:48]
Tony Robbins
Could you. But how do you even go to school for that?
[10:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I don't want to. I want to stay in this frame. Frame before.
[10:53]
Tony Robbins
No, no, for sure. But I was just wondering, like, is it something that you can actually learn? I thought it's something that either people either have innately or they don't. You go to school for that?
[11:02]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. You can train. Um, yeah. I have mentors that have taken me under their wing.
[11:08]
Tony Robbins
I love that. That's great. You also say something that's very. I saw in the book that I found very interesting was, like, over medicalizing natural human behaviors and over labeling.
[11:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's kind of a pet peeve of mine.
[11:19]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[11:19]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. TikTok therapy is a thing, you know, huge thing.
[11:23]
Tony Robbins
Like words. Like, you know, what's happening is where, like, everyone's in a trauma mode. Everything is like. There's hashtags and trends, and then people just kind of like, Narcissism is a big label. You know, people, you know, they find something that kind of tracks, and then they glom onto it, and that becomes your thing, right?
[11:41]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Trauma. Yeah. Well, yes. Yes, this is true. People take med. You know, psychology, language, diagnoses, even narcissism. Now everyone's ex boyfriend is a narcissist. I don't know how everyone's ex boyfriend could be a narcissist.
[11:55]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[11:55]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Certainly some of them. But, you know, they're. They're. We call people, you know, things. People we don't like. We call them psychopath narcissists. We. Everything that is uncomfortable to us, we now say it's because of our trauma. You know? You know, things like trauma, it exists, but it's not every. It's not everything. It's also. Humans are so complex. It's hard to reduce everything to that one thing that happened to us when we were five. You know, there are so many reasons and things that have formed who we are today.
[12:27]
Tony Robbins
Well, narcissism is a big one. Right? That's. It's a very popular one. There's a lot. And you talk about narcissism a lot in this book. There's like, you talk about like vulnerable narcissism and there's like, what is vulnerable narcissism?
[12:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Vulnerable narcissism is feeling justified to special privileges because you've suffered in the past. Not necessarily that you're superior to others, that's grandiose narcissism. But because you've suffered in the past.
[12:53]
Tony Robbins
What percentage of people actually have narcissistic qualities? Like, is it a big percentage? Because we're talking about how everybody now is a narcissist. And this narcissism is there. Like it's a continuum. It's a continuum. Right. Like we can be narcissistic and be a nice person. Right. Like, it not just one thing doesn't always automatically mean another thing.
[13:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's right. It's just like any personality variation. You ask me what percentage of the population are introverts? Well, we all go in and out of this. I actually like to think of it more of as a mindset. Like the victim mindset is a mindset. It's a dynamic mindset that all of us can fall prey to. You know, narcissism is a mindset as well. Some people do habitually score high in vulnerable narcissism. That's true. But there is no demarcation line between the vulnerable narcissist and the non vulnerable narcissist. Because we're all human.
[13:47]
Tony Robbins
Right? Right. But there's. What. But is there one kind that's more like the good. The good kind? Is there a good type versus, like.
[13:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
If I had to choose one type of narcissism, I would rather be a grandiose narcissist than a vulnerable narcissist. That is true.
[14:02]
Tony Robbins
Really? Why?
[14:03]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Grandiose narcissism is associated with leadership skills. It's associated with greater well being. Even if you don't increase the well being of others, you're still personally.
[14:15]
Tony Robbins
That's like a lot of entrepreneurs are narcissists.
[14:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, 100%.
[14:18]
Tony Robbins
Right?
[14:19]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Yeah. And we actually have a study we just published showing we may need to rethink grandiose narcissism because we found a profile of people who score high in grandiose narcissism but low in vulnerable narcissism. And those individuals seem. There seems to be no downside to it.
[14:36]
Tony Robbins
Really.
[14:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. We probably don't want to Believe that because we like to believe that they get their comeuppance because they're so full of themselves. But there really seems to be a lot of benefits of having such self belief in yourself.
[14:48]
Tony Robbins
Well, I think you have to be a little bit narcissistic to go after big dreams. Right. And to take risks.
[14:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I think so. And a lot of it is dependent on your field. Right. So if you're an NBA basketball player and you show some grandiose narcissism, your fans love you.
[15:10]
Tony Robbins
That's true. But if you're an accountant, probably not so much. Right?
[15:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. You don't want a puffed up or sell his flying airplane who's overconfident. We can deal with some overconfidence here and there with an NBA player, but.
[15:23]
Tony Robbins
Also a brain surgeon. I want my brain surgeon to have that too.
[15:27]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Sure. So I think it's contextual too.
[15:29]
Tony Robbins
It is contextual. What about you're saying about the vulnerable narcissist? Why would you not want to be a vulnerable narcissist?
[15:35]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, well, it's associated with depression. It's associated with constant self esteem, uncertainty. People who score very high in vulnerable narcissism are constantly unsure of who they are. And they need constant, not necessarily praise, but they need constant acceptance. If they're rejected or even the slightest hint of rejection, they fall into pieces.
[15:56]
Tony Robbins
So let me ask, why did you decide to write this book now? Like, why Rise above now? You wrote Transcend. Was there something like. Did you. Were you seeing a lot of people in like the, in the zeitgeist with victim mindsets, with what was happening? Like, what was the kind of, like the reason why you were kind of swaying towards this?
[16:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I didn't feel a need. It's exciting to see that, by the way.
[16:16]
Tony Robbins
Yeah. Is it?
[16:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. You put your heart and soul into something for so long and you see it come to fruition. I did think that it was really in the culture, a victimhood culture that we're living in right now. Gene Twenge, who wrote the book Generations, talks about, you know, two generations ago we had kids. I forget what that was. Generation what? But if we, if we not, not this generation, not the last generation, but the generation before that, Gen X, they grew up in the 80s and 90s.
[16:49]
Tony Robbins
That's me. No, millennials is.
[16:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Before that.
[16:52]
Tony Robbins
Generation X.
[16:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Generation X. I think it's. There's like confusion about whether or not me a check. No, it's okay.
[16:59]
Tony Robbins
Okay.
[16:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Whatever you are. And me. And me, I think we're the same age.
[17:02]
Tony Robbins
Okay, well, I don't know. How old are you?
[17:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You tell me first.
[17:05]
Tony Robbins
I know. You tell me for. You don't want to say that to me. You're gonna be kicked off the show. If you say you're 64, we're in big trouble.
[17:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm 45.
[17:12]
Tony Robbins
Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. So then basically, we're. I think we're called. We're Gen X.
[17:18]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay. Gen Xers were all about. And then, as well as the one that came before them, were really about self. The self esteem movement. You know? You know, you think about Saturday Night Live like, I'm good enough, I'm strong enough. God darn it, people like me.
[17:34]
Tony Robbins
Exactly.
[17:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That was Stuart Smiley from Saturday Night Live. Great skit. But then the generation after that, that morphed too much into grandiose narcissism. So self esteem movement really turned into, you know, we're the best.
[17:48]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[17:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But for some reason, that has morphed into a generation of vulnerable narcissists. All these kids, they feel they're entitled to special privileges because of whatever special, special thing that makes their suffering unique.
[18:04]
Tony Robbins
That's. Yes, you're. You're preaching. No, you're preaching to the converted, because I agree with you 100%. What do you think the rise of what happened?
[18:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, Jonathan Haidt would say coddling.
[18:15]
Tony Robbins
Coddling.
[18:16]
Scott Barry Kaufman
We're coddling these kids. Greg Lugianoff and John.
[18:18]
Tony Robbins
I would say the same. I just did a TED Talk on how to. Basically, how to. It's called how to raise mentally.
[18:23]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[18:24]
Tony Robbins
Mentally strong kids in a fragile world. Because I'm a big believer that that's what's happening. And the gentle parenting era is very detrimental to the kids. I think the kids, even where we live. Right. The entitlement with the anxiety, with the depression, with the social anxiety. There's so much of it. Part of it is, I think that there's no time to play. Right.
[18:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's a big part of it. I'm a big believer in play. Yeah. But also part of it is what happened to the narratives that were rewarded, like in our. In our childhood.
[18:57]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[18:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Wasn't it? Do you remember when it was rewarded to overcome things like in college essays? The story wasn't how vulnerable we are, but the story was what we've done to overcome it. Now college admissions rewards just the vulnerability, you know?
[19:13]
Tony Robbins
Well, that's the thing. Well, I think Brene Brown did this whole. As, you know.
[19:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[19:17]
Tony Robbins
But got on steroids and that became the new kind of. The new kind of like rhetoric. Right. Like the more vulnerable you are, the more you talk about your problems, the more you expose who you are.
[19:30]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You.
[19:30]
Tony Robbins
That's what kind of has become the thing. Our generation, to your point, was more like, more like coping skills, like, you know, doing things for ourselves, like resilience, you know, kind of like independence. It's a, it's. And like sucking it up type of thing. Right. But like to you, you were saying earlier about self esteem. You're right. Like back then was much more about self esteem.
[19:55]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[19:56]
Tony Robbins
So where is the line between being overly confident and narcissistic, let's say, and self esteem? What is the difference?
[20:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There is actually a difference between self esteem and narcissism. Those are two separate constructs, as we say in psychology.
[20:14]
Tony Robbins
Okay.
[20:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
They actually have two different developmental trajectories. So when kids are younger, their narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and then start to decline. Whereas self esteem is very low in adolescence and starts to improve as people get older. Self esteem is really just feeling a sense that you're worth it. You know, in a lot of ways, narcissism, which is, I'm great, I'm the best, is a compensation for low self esteem sometimes. Especially when it comes to vulnerable narcissism.
[20:48]
Tony Robbins
So because you were saying like in the book, how, what, what's the parenting like, the way people parent are making the kids have either a higher self esteem or a lower self esteem. Can you talk about that?
[21:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, absolutely. So parental warmth and acceptance tends to lead to a secure self esteem. And a secure self esteem is a great thing, by the way.
[21:11]
Tony Robbins
It is.
[21:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's something we want in our children. And healthy self esteem is one where just the child feels like they're enough, you know, they're a worthy human being and then take. Accept that and then move on. You know, the ones who get really preoccupied with their self esteem, that's a different issue. That's like not healthy. You know, we, we want you to have a secure self esteem and then focus on other things.
[21:36]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[21:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
We don't want you to be preoccupied with your self esteem every day.
[21:40]
Tony Robbins
But what is the parent, how is the, what is the parent doing or the adult doing with the child to make them have a lower self esteem. Okay. What's the opposite of warmth and acceptance? What's the opposite of warmth?
[21:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, in terms of narcissism, there is research showing that over praise for things that the child has not really actually earned does relate to grandiose narcissism. Having feeling like your child Always has to, you know, pressuring them, always win the trophy, but always telling everyone, my child's the best.
[22:11]
Tony Robbins
You know.
[22:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It'S called overvaluation in psychology, that's the technical term.
[22:17]
Tony Robbins
Oh really? Is that what it's called?
[22:19]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh yes, that's it.
[22:19]
Tony Robbins
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[24:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes, attachment is a whole different area beast, but the causal chain is not clear. A lot of people who have a genetic proclivity towards a certain personality trait, let's say there's a tendency towards low self esteem just as a person, as just a baseline that could lead to the development of anxious attachment style. For sure. We also know people with anxious attachment style tend to have low self esteem. The causality, it's probably bi directional, they feed off each other, but they're definitely related.
[24:52]
Tony Robbins
Because what I thought was interesting was that how anxious attachment is. I didn't realize until I read your book that some of it is genetic.
[25:02]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Everything is somewhat genetic.
[25:04]
Tony Robbins
Not just because I thought like so I've been, I was taught that attachment style is very much like a nurturing thing, like environmental, like how you were raised, what were you doing? But you were talking about in your book.
[25:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's a genetic component to attachment style. There really is. You can take two identical twins who have the same nurturing or non nurturing parent, not identical twins, let's say fraternal twins who share 50% of the same genes and you'll find a difference between if they have the identical same genesis, you know, and how they react. You know, there is a difference between genes influence what colors our world. It's all part of a. To me it's all part of a broader personality temperament. You know, if you. Some people have a temperament, maybe a not or such a rose colored glasses temperament, you know, whatever the opposite.
[25:55]
Tony Robbins
They're naturally more pessimistic.
[25:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's the word I was thinking.
[25:58]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. You bet. Yeah.
[26:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And that colors thing things or, or anxiety, you know, people with a lot of anxiety. Right off the bat you see some of these kids coming out of the womb crying, you know, with at a more intense rate than other kids. And that already set is setting them up for anxious attachment. Some people actually have avoidant attachment. So maybe they're. It's not so much anxiety, it's just disagreeableness. They might feel like they need people.
[26:28]
Tony Robbins
That's true. I mean I know a lot of people like that too. I'm sure you do as well.
[26:31]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm a little like that to be honest.
[26:33]
Tony Robbins
Really?
[26:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I think I have some avoidant attachment style.
[26:36]
Tony Robbins
Really?
[26:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah. And I'm like okay with that.
[26:38]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[26:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's actually research showing two different types of avoidant attachment. There's one type that is correlated with high well being and there's another type that is more correlated with psychopathology. I think I'm the one with high well being.
[26:48]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's like chosen. You choose to have a void and attachment. Yeah.
[26:53]
Tony Robbins
So that's interesting because I know, I think that's like. Because in your. Again when I was saying earlier like you're like you, you in general just really fascinated me because like you've become like you have a lot of background in this. Like you went to Yale, you went to Carnegie Mellon. Like you like, is there, is that why you kind of went like you delved deep into the psychology? Because like I said, you were, you were like kind of. You were kind of somebody who did all these things and you use yourself as a, as a pizza dish, Right?
[27:20]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, definitely. Earlier in my career. Absolutely. I wanted to kind of prove people wrong. You know, all that hate naysayers.
[27:28]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[27:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Saying that I was stupid and I Couldn't even, they said I couldn't graduate. I shouldn't be able to graduate high school. You know, when I was in high school. And so I was like okay, well screw you. I'm going to not only graduate high school, but I'm going to go to Yale someday, you know. And like so yeah, but that was early on. But that's not. And I have a whole chapter in the book about the underdog motivation and how that can fuel you.
[27:48]
Tony Robbins
I want to talk about that. That's why I was bringing it up because I think that the chip on the should shoulder or the underdog motivation is a lot of times fire that the fuel and the fire to kind of motivate people who otherwise wouldn't have, you know, self actualized.
[28:05]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[28:06]
Tony Robbins
So do you want to talk about this underdog?
[28:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I thought yeah, it's a, it's a big, you know, the most common sort of manifest, the most obvious is like Michael Jordan, you know who like creates enemies, you know, so he can like.
[28:18]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, so people.
[28:19]
Scott Barry Kaufman
So he has a reason to find motivation. Yeah, yeah. Like, but I think any of us can kind of tap into that motivation if we are feeling rejected. But I don't think it's the most sustainable and healthiest in the long run.
[28:33]
Tony Robbins
Okay.
[28:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Like I don't, I'm glad, I don't. I'm glad my whole life is not revolving around an under, an underdog motivation anymore. I'm also glad I'm not an underdog anymore.
[28:43]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[28:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Both of those things I'm glad about.
[28:46]
Tony Robbins
Does that change though? So can someone, does that happen often? Like if someone starts off as having that underdog mentality and then as they achieve success, success does it, does the, does that mentality wane?
[28:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, I don't know. Look at again, Michael Jordan, I don't do that.
[29:01]
Tony Robbins
But he's a one of a kind, right?
[29:02]
Scott Barry Kaufman
One of a kind. Yeah, yeah, it does tend because how.
[29:05]
Tony Robbins
Do, how do, how do we. I think this is the big long question. You talk that you. It's on the COVID of your book. But like how can we discover in ourselves our greatest potential?
[29:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You're asking the heavy hitting questions.
[29:19]
Tony Robbins
Well listen, you didn't come here to just, you know, talk about the weather, did you?
[29:23]
Scott Barry Kaufman
No, I didn't.
[29:23]
Tony Robbins
No.
[29:23]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Although let's be honest, the weather's been kind of shit lately.
[29:26]
Tony Robbins
I know today.
[29:28]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But how can we. That's the whole reason why I created self actualization coaching. We're actually in the middle of a six month program right now. We're Training coaches so that there's, so these coaches can help clients identify what is their greatest potential. So much of it comes down to this kind of existential, humanistic perspective that I take, you know, where we have to get in touch with this destiny within us. And some of us evade our destiny because we think it's destructive and yet it's teaching us things that we really should be listening to. Raoul May, the humanistic psychologist, calls it the daimonic. He said, what is this guiding force, this destiny that has the power to overtake all of you? What is this thing? Sometimes when it has the power to overtake all of you, all of you, it's that terrifies you and you run away from it and you evade your destiny your whole life. But some of the most creative people have embraced it and have found a way to channel it for their greatest creativity.
[30:32]
Tony Robbins
But if someone's stuck, right, and they don't, like, they don't know how we're even to begin. Can you talk? Do you have any like, even in your coaching program?
[30:42]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[30:42]
Tony Robbins
What are some like actionable steps someone can take to even see what their potential is?
[30:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
So yeah, we have a workbook called Choose Growth. We have all sorts of things where you try to constantly get in touch with what are the sparks during your day that really keeping a journal is a really helpful way of doing this. Getting in touch with what aspects of your job are letting you up versus what aspects of your job aren't letting you up. Also being learning character strengths. And you can take tests for free. Selfactualizationtest.com I put up a bunch of tests. Self reflection and self knowledge is a great first step. You may have certain strengths you didn't even know you had. So first of all, I would say never give up. I would say always have this spirit of curiosity about yourself. So start there with that curiosity and be like, well, okay, I'm stuck. But I just, I don't. Usually stuckness is a reflection of you're not really self connected, you know, and so going through the process of, of deeper self connection. A lot of people feel stuck because they hear other people's, other people's voices in their heads. They'll hear like, you know, their mother telling them, you should do this or that you should that or, or maybe you're thinking to yourself, maybe you ignore certain messages that are sending you because they're not societally acceptable or they're not like. Or you're like, I can't make money from that. So you like, I would just Guarantee you that if you feel stuck and hopeless in a lot of ways, there are so many things that are passing you by, signals within as well as signals other people are sending you that you're really missing out on, you're not paying attention to.
[32:27]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[32:28]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's some really cool research on the difference between lucky people and unlucky people. This is self reported luck. And people who report that they lead really lucky lives in a psychology experiment, they are more likely to be open to new experiences and notice some good things that are happening during the experiment that the other people did not even notice because they're so focused on how unlucky they are in life. So much of this does relate to the victim mindset thing.
[32:54]
Tony Robbins
That is, that's exactly it. So that's why this whole victim mindset is such a good thing to kind of like really delve into. Because I think a lot of times the people who are stuck and not moving forward is because they are stuck in this victim mindset, but they don't even know they're in the victim mindset because they see what they can't see. So that's when that whole, the whole self. That's why I was curious. Like, again, like I've said this on the show tons of times, like if someone doesn't have the self awareness ability or the EQ to even know, or they can be, or they just are not able to connect the dots, what's the first step for someone to even know? They even have this victim mindset. And then you talk about how to, you know, the difference between learned helplessness.
[33:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[33:38]
Tony Robbins
Versus learned hopelessness.
[33:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[33:41]
Tony Robbins
Right. Can you just kind of talk about both of those and.
[33:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I could, I could.
[33:45]
Tony Robbins
Okay, good.
[33:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's this classic research by Martin Seligman and his colleagues looking at learned helplessness as they started with rats and dogs where they were shocked. And there's some ethical considerations about that as well. But putting that aside. Yeah. After a certain amount of shocking, even when they opened up the cage, the dogs didn't realize that they could leave the cage. They have, they had learned this sense of helplessness. And then he's tried to extend this to humans as well. I don't know how much they, if they did shocking of humans. Maybe they did, but it sounds, sounds terrible, doesn't it?
[34:21]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I, I'm following the things.
[34:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Psychologists do in the name of, of data.
[34:28]
Tony Robbins
Of data. Yeah.
[34:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But what they realized 50 years later is that they had gotten it completely wrong in humans. That in humans the Default state in humans is helplessness, but what is learned is hopefulness. So it's actually a theory of learned hopefulness in humans, not a theory of word helplessness. And we have to remember that because a victim mindset is our default state of being. It's the easiest way to get attention, sympathy from others. Yeah, sure. When you're a kid, how many times did you lie to your mom about being sick or exaggerate, Exaggerate a little bit like, hey, mom, my tummy hurts. I don't think I go to school. It's the default state. But we have to overcome that. We have to rise above that instinct if we're going to lead a life with agency and intentionality and reaching our highest potential.
[35:27]
Tony Robbins
So do you think the rise of social media, tick tock, Instagram has made people's victim mindset even more like, out of control? Because you get now, now you're becoming like, you get, you get a pat on the back for it, right?
[35:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes, I do.
[35:41]
Tony Robbins
Right, I do. So how. What should people do? Do they just not like, how. Because technology is just, it's going, right, like, and it's so invasive in our lives, right? How do, like. And you're getting, and you're getting a pat on the back for it. How do we kind of take those people yet again out of that mindset into this whole, this whole empowerment mindset? By the way, do you remember when empowerment was a big thing too? That was a whole trend for a while when.
[36:12]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Women's empowerment.
[36:13]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, women's empowerment. Well, that's a thing there. You know, the thing is, I think, think that even with social media, this idea of like, women empowerment was a big thing or like, but the obsession over like the trauma, like all the pages that are like obsessed with trauma or, and even vulnerability, I guess, and authenticity is another one. They've override all the other stuff. So if you are feeling bad about yourself, it's, it's that, that's actually, that, that actually you, you get bon. You get brownie points for that. Right? That's what I've noticed. If you, what you get brownie points if you feel, you know, like you've, you've been put upon or like, look, how about this? Even, like, you know, if you've been.
[37:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Wrong by the world, if you're wrong.
[37:05]
Tony Robbins
By the world, like, look, even like you talk about the activism stuff in the book. Can we talk about that?
[37:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, of course.
[37:12]
Tony Robbins
Okay, can you please talk about it? Because I think it's great that you put it in the book?
[37:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, I have a section on narcissistic activism. There is research showing that the more you identify with certain causes, that's your whole life becomes about just those things and you feel entitled to special privileges because you have this cause. There's actually research showing that people who, they're called virtuous victim signalers, people who feel the need to almost 24,7 signal to others how much they've suffered, but how angelic they are. That tends to be correlated with the dark triad of personality, things like narcissism, which we already mentioned, but also psychopathy and Machiavellianism and this sort of sadistic kind of enjoyment in taking down others. So there, there are some darker personality traits that you see among some types of type of activists. And I should be very clear, not all of activism is bad. Throughout the course of human history, a lot of healthy activism has really moved society forward. But I think it's important to distinguish between toxic activism and healthy activism.
[38:24]
Tony Robbins
Can we talk about the toxic activism?
[38:26]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, it's not helping anything. It's just annoying everyone.
[38:28]
Tony Robbins
Give me an example like you talk about in the book.
[38:32]
Scott Barry Kaufman
What is an example? I don't know if I have a specific example.
[38:37]
Tony Robbins
You don't have a, you don't have a specific example?
[38:38]
Scott Barry Kaufman
In the book I talk about people who identify more strongly like extremely with LBT causes, with environmentalism cause with like a lot of the liberal, the standard liberal sort of things. So we often think about like, you know, authoritarianism or as just like a right wing phenomenon. But, but there's emerging research suggesting there is a left wing authoritarianism that it, that mirrors kind of in a horseshoe way, they both meet together at some point, both the far right and the far left, you know, and it's left, like 99% of people who are in the middle kind of shake their heads like what's going on here, right.
[39:20]
Tony Robbins
It's not just on the right, it's on the left as well. Can you talk about some of the.
[39:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Things that you given causes that by themselves there's not an issue with like, you know, there's, there's no problem having, you know, believing in rights for gay, bisexual, you know, individuals, right, lesbians. So whatever the whole rainbow stands for.
[39:37]
Tony Robbins
Don't make me say I don't, I don't know, Please don't make me say.
[39:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
What it currently stands for.
[39:41]
Tony Robbins
I think they added another letter or.
[39:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Maybe, oh, there's a Q. Lbgq.
[39:47]
Tony Robbins
No, lb, L, T. And then there's.
[39:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
A fight between should the T Be part of it or not. And that's a whole.
[39:53]
Tony Robbins
Yes, that's the thing. I didn't.
[39:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There's a bifurcation within that community. I don't want to get into any of that. The bifurcation. But there's no problem having certain causes. But this research is showing what happens when you have a certain extremist mindset about the activism where your way is the right way. Anyone who doesn't agree with you deserves to be treated poorly, even violently. You know, there's this kind of way of thinking that. That can be very damaging to society.
[40:25]
Tony Robbins
So what's the call to action for that? What are the things that people have where. The cat. Like the qualities of the dark triad, I think you called it. What's in that tri. Like, what is those things?
[40:35]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, that's the narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellian.
[40:37]
Tony Robbins
Okay, so they have. So then what's. What do people do about that, I guess is the question. Like, you just avoid these people. Avoid these. Well, I know. So, like. But, like, but they're the. But they have a. It's the. It's the squeaky, squeaky oil. The squeaky wheel that gets the oil. Right.
[40:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[40:55]
Tony Robbins
And it's, like, damaging to our society.
[40:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It is, it is. It's also. We have lost nuance, you know, which I'm trying to do right now because, you know, I. I'm the last one who wants to be quoted as saying, you know, that it's. It's. It's. It's. It's bad to believe in certain causes.
[41:15]
Tony Robbins
No, that's not what you're saying.
[41:16]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, that's definitely not what I'm saying. But. But I think we've lost all nuance because the loudest voices have taken over and make any other voice feel like there's no place for their voice.
[41:29]
Tony Robbins
No, exactly. So you. So basically, though, you're. So you. Basically, you were seeing the victim. You're saying that's why you're. You wanted to write the book, because you saw this stuff happening and you wanted to kind of like everywhere. Like the. What is the other word. I love that you said something that you was like, the. Instead of saying, like, the trauma. What I loved, you gave other options for. For how to. How to talk about survival stress. Like. Survival stress? Yes. Like, you talk about how language makes such a big difference in how the. Like, how.
[42:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I really think it does.
[42:02]
Tony Robbins
It makes a big difference. Right. Because if you think of yourself as someone who has trauma, you're going to act A certain way, right?
[42:09]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes, yes. I mean how the self talk, the way the narratives and the things we tell ourselves about the cause of why we are the way we are really does impact our empowerment versus whether or not we're going to have a victim mindset over something.
[42:23]
Tony Robbins
Right. So like how do we start, how do we start changing the way we talk to ourselves?
[42:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Start by changing the way you talk to yourself.
[42:31]
Tony Robbins
Exactly. Because what happens in our, in our brain, like if I heard that no matter how, like what, our brain doesn't know the difference between what we say or what we do. Like if, if we, if we say something, then our body acts as if it's actually true. Correct?
[42:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[42:48]
Tony Robbins
Is that not true? Because I'm not the doctor, but you are. And I thought that's what I, that's what a lot of other people have said to me. That, that like if there is a.
[42:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Whole psychology of self talk and the real importance of how we interpret certain situations. Right. There's a whole field of cognitive behavioral therapy. Right. That is all about do we catastrophize things? Do we see things in black and white terms? You know, the trauma thing is just. It's a word that has become exhausted, it's exhausting in our society because it's become everything. It's become this one world word. This one word has, has. Is now used to describe back pain. Every, every, everything. You know.
[43:33]
Tony Robbins
Oh yeah. There's a book out your body keeps the body keeps the score.
[43:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's an immensely popular book.
[43:39]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[43:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And it's become like a cult like book. And it's like for me to even have a little bit of criticism over some of the things that are said in that book drives them crazy.
[43:52]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[43:52]
Scott Barry Kaufman
The ones that treat it like it's a religion, you know, but that science is not a cult or religion. I mean science, we have to look at the data where it comes. You know, there are a lot of limitations to that. You know, pre existing personality traits matter too. Not everything is environmentally determined.
[44:07]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[44:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
We don't live in a completely environmentally determined universe. Right. A lot of. Also a lot of our choices are within our own control that we just refuse to take responsibility for. You know, it's much easier to blame, much easier to blame that one thing that happened to you when you were four then to at now age 50, take steps to lead. To lead a better, healthier, happier life.
[44:30]
Tony Robbins
Right. Because also the rumination of it. Right. Like you. Because ruminate.
[44:35]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Big part of it.
[44:36]
Tony Robbins
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[45:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
There are some good questions. Thanks, you're a great interviewer.
[45:57]
Tony Robbins
Oh, thank you.
[45:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You're welcome.
[45:59]
Tony Robbins
Thank you.
[45:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Talk therapy is good, can be good. Yeah. It's like having a friend that listens to you.
[46:07]
Tony Robbins
So you pay a lot of money.
[46:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You'Re paying for unconditional positive regard. There are a lot of lonely people out there that often need a little bit of validation. There is a whole form of therapy now called affirming therapy. And I don't know how I feel about this. No matter what meshuggahna you have going on with you, that's a Jewish, I.
[46:31]
Tony Robbins
Got it right away. Meshuggah is like crazy.
[46:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Meshuggahna you have, you go to this affirming therapist and then you just affirm it. But don't worry, it's good that you're a psychopath. Don't worry. Affirming care. Now, no matter whatever you are, it's great, you know, and it makes you feel good about yourself. You know, I'm not convinced that's the best form of therapy, but that is a very popular form of therapy that's cropping up now.
[46:56]
Tony Robbins
Is that word that? Are you serious?
[46:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, yeah. It's a thing now. It's a really big thing.
[46:59]
Tony Robbins
So if I were to Google affirm.
[47:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Like, like you go on psychology day, you're looking for a therapist. Look, I'm looking for an affirming psychologist. Yeah, yeah.
[47:08]
Tony Robbins
So people are literally paying for someone just to kind of affirm.
[47:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah.
[47:12]
Tony Robbins
That whatever they say is whatever it is, acceptance.
[47:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Now look, I am a believer in Carl Rogers notion of unconditional positive regard. But as Even Carl Rogers made clear, acceptance doesn't necessarily mean liking or that you don't want to change. Self acceptance is the first step to change.
[47:29]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[47:30]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But change is also a good thing. And it's also if a lot of people are struggling horribly with depression or the experience of depression or whatever it is, and they're seeking, they need help. I don't know about the affirm, how helpful the affirming part is, you know, maybe as a first step, but. But there needs to be another step.
[47:50]
Tony Robbins
Well, also that's like, it kind of reminds me of just hanging around people who just validate you all the time.
[47:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[47:56]
Tony Robbins
Right. Like movie stars do that all the time.
[47:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's like fast food, you know, like it feels good in the moment, but you go home and you're the same person exactly.
[48:05]
Tony Robbins
And like there's no growth there. There's no challenge, there's no nothing.
[48:09]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's right. That's right.
[48:10]
Tony Robbins
So is that really something that people are, is growing?
[48:12]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I would kid you not.
[48:13]
Tony Robbins
Wow, that's crazy. See, like I would think that also just over, like. And I'm sure you, we both, we all know people who have been going to the Same therapist for 20 years twice a week. Once a week. And where, like, at what point is it just like, you know, a bad habit that you're spending money on? Right. Because and, or, and the rumination of talking about your problem. And you know, when, when people go to a therapist, it's like they put a label on you or psychiatrist. Oh yeah, you have your OCD and add. And now that you think that you are these things, you walk through life, this goes back to the beginning of the podcast and you think that's what you are. Unless you break free from those things and say that doesn't. That's not going to stop me from trying to achieve this and go after that. Right. Like these things are putting shackles on people's ankles a lot of times.
[49:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
This is why I prefer coaching. You know, I create a form of coaching which is very forward looking as opposed to past look looking. Self therapy. Self talk therapy.
[49:17]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[49:18]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean it can be damaging. Like you're pointing out. It's not always great and it's also not for everyone. I saw a very funny Bill Maher, sort of. He's a podcast.
[49:28]
Tony Robbins
I love him.
[49:28]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, me too. Yeah, I tend to agree with a lot of his.
[49:31]
Tony Robbins
Me too. I tend to agree with almost everything lately.
[49:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But I like people like him. I like people like Larry David. You know, I like these like honest Jews Like, I just. Like, there's, like. You know, they say things that they. How they really feel, even if it's not societally, you know, like. Like, Bill Mara is like. Is he Jewish?
[49:49]
Tony Robbins
Bill Maher.
[49:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Bill Maher.
[49:50]
Tony Robbins
Bill Maher, come to think of it, I mean, I don't know if he's Jewish. He's very pro Israel right now. I mean, but then.
[49:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But Larry David certainly is.
[49:58]
Tony Robbins
Yeah. Who? Larry David, of course, is. Wait, is Bill Maher Jewish? You know, I think he is.
[50:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
He's ish.
[50:05]
Tony Robbins
He's Jewish. But if your mom's Jewish, you're Jewish.
[50:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Right.
[50:08]
Tony Robbins
Okay.
[50:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But he was talking about. He's like.
[50:09]
Tony Robbins
He's like, you know, I'm not practicing Jew.
[50:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
He's like, look, I've done. I've done therapy. And he's like, honestly, like, it's like they're. I want them to push me a little more. You know, they're like. They're like, oh, that's. Oh, really? Okay. You know, it's like. It's like, you know, what am I getting out of that? You know? So I think that it's not for everyone. I also don't think you should feel ashamed if you're in therapy and you're not getting something out of it there. It can be awkward sometimes, breaking up with a therapist, but sometimes it needs to happen.
[50:37]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[50:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I had a therapist I didn't really like, to be honest. Yes. To deal with mother issues.
[50:42]
Tony Robbins
And what happened?
[50:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I felt like this therapist was being too hard on my mom.
[50:46]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[50:48]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I felt sorry for my mom. Like, I didn't want to have bashing sessions about my. That's not. Like. I had some issues with my mom. Yes, she's overprotective. She's. She's crazy. But. But, you know, she has a big heart. She means well. But then the, you know, the therapist, like, trying to have me convinced that, like, trauma was there, you know, and all this stuff that I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't know if I agree with you.
[51:11]
Tony Robbins
100. By the way. Were you a psychologist already by this point?
[51:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, this is recently.
[51:15]
Tony Robbins
This is recently. So that's even better, by the way. That's hilarious. So I think they have a lot of therapists have to, like, feel like they're earning their pay. Right. So they have to find somebody to blame it on.
[51:27]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[51:27]
Tony Robbins
And they have to label you or.
[51:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
She's, like, giving me a victim mindset.
[51:31]
Tony Robbins
Right. You're like, do you know, I wrote this book on how to overcome.
[51:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
The book.
[51:35]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, the book on how to overcome a victim mindset. And you're telling me. But this is the problem. Yeah, Right. But I wonder if it's. Is it because people don't have enough, like, the social element, right? Like, people don't socialize anymore. People need an outlet. And is that. Do you think that's why a lot of people go to therapy? Or is it because they don't have someone they can trust? Like, what's. You. What do you think this is more just a question, like I would ask, what do you think the reason is that people are just going, like, now it's become such a. It's become so popular to have a therapist that it's becoming someone's part of everyone's habitual day. That wasn't how it was when I was a kid. And I don't have a therapist. I'm the only one of my friends, by the way, who doesn't have one. And I get made fun of.
[52:20]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's horrible. You should not be meant to feel shame for that. In fact, I think sometimes choosing a coach or a therapist is a very wise choice.
[52:28]
Tony Robbins
A coach. But I think I agree with what you said because a lot of times coaches push you forward and they're not doing the blame game. Because in my opinion, blaming somebody is not going to move you. It's not going to move the puck.
[52:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Look, I'm of mind that no one should feel shamed for how they choose to heal. I argue that there's something called narcissist.
[52:51]
Tony Robbins
I know for everything.
[52:52]
Scott Barry Kaufman
For everything I have. Narcissist. There's narcissistic spirituality. There's narcissistic. So there are people who. They'll go to one silent meditation retreat and they'll come back. They'll cancel half their friends because now their friends, they've.
[53:06]
Tony Robbins
They've.
[53:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
They've had an epiphany that their. Their friends are not as enlightened as they are. You had one freaking yoga retreat.
[53:12]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[53:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Like, that doesn't make you more enlightened all of a sudden than all your friends, you know? But they'll come back and they'll feel like they're more enlightened. So it's called the I'm enlightened and you're not effect. It's actually a real effect in psychology.
[53:24]
Tony Robbins
Really? And what happens with that person? Does the pendulum swing back and they make amends or.
[53:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Interesting question. I don't know. I don't know about over time. But you do tend to see this effect after engagement in spiritual practices. I also could see this happening with therapy. The person who goes to a therapist thinks that they're now a better person than those who don't go to therapy. You see this actually in so many different domains. You see this a lot in the fitness community with fatphobia, with. Oh, because you work, like, if you've had a. If you were overweight and you lost a lot of weight and that's your story. You know, those people tend to, like, really have a deep, visceral, like, reaction to fat people. You know, really, they represent to them what they hated about themselves back in the day.
[54:09]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[54:10]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, but. But that's horrible.
[54:11]
Tony Robbins
Like, that's true. But that's also like. Like most of times people hate things that remind them of themselves. Like when I. When. When you don't like something about someone, like, typically it's because you.
[54:23]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Or who you used to be and you feel like you've overcome as well.
[54:26]
Tony Robbins
Exactly.
[54:27]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[54:27]
Tony Robbins
So that makes actual sense to me. That makes sense to me. In a bad. It's a really. It's true. And then you shame them.
[54:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[54:33]
Tony Robbins
Which by the way, you talk about the shame in the book. Right.
[54:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm not about shaming. Yeah, yeah. Like, my. My tone in this book is what I call honest love.
[54:42]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[54:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Like, I'm not trying to shame anyone for their choices. I want what's best for everyone, you know, And I want people to figure that out for themselves and then to go after it. Not with a victim mindset.
[54:54]
Tony Robbins
Right, right, right, right, right. So with. But with. You're saying something about. With the shame. People tend to feel shame because how their societal. How they're. How people see them in society.
[55:06]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes, that's exactly right. Even if we didn't have shame. So people might have. Not have had any shame over something. And then they talk about something they're excited about, and then they see how it's reacted, you know, like, and then they're like, oh, like, now I. Now I have shame over this. I didn't. I didn't a minute ago.
[55:25]
Tony Robbins
Right, right, right.
[55:26]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Last time I'm telling anyone what Bobby and I did sexually in the bedroom.
[55:30]
Tony Robbins
Last night because could you. Once you get judged, that's it. Right?
[55:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah.
[55:34]
Tony Robbins
It has nothing to do with, like, what you actually did. What the. What? What? Anything.
[55:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
How people react to you.
[55:41]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah.
[55:42]
Scott Barry Kaufman
We're so sensitive as a social species, you know, but isn't it interesting? You could have no shame at all of things you're doing in your life. If you never had to talk to another human, if I never told anybody. Blissfully go about your life doing what you want to do.
[55:55]
Tony Robbins
I was gonna say, isn't that. Then do you have guilt? Because is guilt when you just. When you don't tell somebody, can you feel.
[56:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, guilt is different than shame.
[56:02]
Tony Robbins
Right? That's what I'm saying.
[56:03]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Guilt is actually more productive guilt. With guilt, you. You've done something to cause someone harm and you want to make a repair, but you don't take it personally. You don't say you're bad. With shame is something different. Sometimes with shame, you're not even harming someone else. You're social approval. Everyone is so judgy these days. Have you noticed that?
[56:24]
Tony Robbins
Yes. Are you joking me?
[56:26]
Scott Barry Kaufman
If you go on social media, everyone is judging everyone for their life choices.
[56:32]
Tony Robbins
That's what it is. But it's all about polarization. Right. And there's no. It's like you were saying, there's no in between.
[56:38]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's no.
[56:39]
Tony Robbins
You're either on this side or you're that side. God forbid.
[56:42]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You're right. Either you're sex positive or a conservative Christian. Those are the only two options we got right now.
[56:46]
Tony Robbins
Yeah. And not at all. And if you. And if you even are on one side and you. And you see something on the other side that makes a little sense and you make mention of it, you'll get bashed by your. Whoever your contingency is.
[56:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, absolutely. Or like it would be like every now and then something comes along and that Trump does that. I'm like, I'm glad he's doing that.
[57:06]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[57:06]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And it's like my. All my. My friends. Right. You can't, you can't even. You know, it's like this guy can't ever do any. Right.
[57:13]
Tony Robbins
I know, but that. Exactly. And you know what I'm saying, by the way? Do I know what you're saying? I mean, I think I said one thing on social media that I was like, very. That I was really happy about and people went nuts.
[57:25]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[57:26]
Tony Robbins
Because I was like, I was. I was basically applauding the devil. Right. But then if on the other side. You know what I mean? So it's very, very hard. Like. So that's why I'm saying, like, it's even. It's hard to have right now. I feel we're in a very interesting time because your friend group has to also be who you're politically sided with.
[57:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I think it's a shame.
[57:44]
Tony Robbins
Right?
[57:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right.
[57:46]
Tony Robbins
And if you are not sided with them, you will literally have. No, you will lose that person as a friend.
[57:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's right.
[57:51]
Tony Robbins
It is. We've never been in a time like this in, in history.
[57:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I don't think it's a crazy time that we're living in right now.
[57:57]
Tony Robbins
Isn't it just insane?
[57:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's. It's absolutely insane. Everything is politicized.
[58:02]
Tony Robbins
Everything is.
[58:03]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I can say I wish everyone love today and I'll get all you Dems are always virtue signaling.
[58:11]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[58:12]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm like virtue signaling.
[58:14]
Tony Robbins
What it's true though. And then everything's a conspiracy theory. But what's the psychological. What is the psychosis on that? That why we cannot be friends with the other side now. Like what's happening in our society psychologically?
[58:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, that's what politics has become is that politics is now focusing on what's bad about the out group as opposed to what's good about your own in group. And that's just what politics has become. Articles have been written about this by political psychologists that that's the age of what we're living in. There is a term for this, but I'm blanking on it right now. But that they coined. But that, that is, you know, everyone's only focusing. You're only defining yourself by what you hate about the other, you know.
[58:59]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[59:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And that's very different than defining your group based on what you love about your group.
[59:05]
Tony Robbins
You know what, that's.
[59:05]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Nobody loves their act. No one actually loves their own group anymore. Right. Do Democrats love their group?
[59:11]
Tony Robbins
No, they don't. But that's actually very true. I didn't even think of it that way.
[59:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Because it's too controversial.
[59:16]
Tony Robbins
No, it's not controversial at all. What I think interest. What's interesting. I think that's 100% accurate. Right. Because. Because how people connect is through misery enjoys company. Right?
[59:28]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Correct.
[59:28]
Tony Robbins
So if you and I were connected by saying by bashing Trump, let's say as opposed to talking about what we have in common, it's not as interesting.
[59:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
No trauma bonding.
[59:37]
Tony Robbins
Right. But we're trauma bonding and we're connecting over hating somebody else.
[59:41]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And I suppose that's what we're doing right now.
[59:43]
Tony Robbins
You know, that's what we're doing right now. But that happened. I think that's the way people socialize today.
[59:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. No, not maybe. Yes, you are right. That is the way people socialize. It's in the air.
[59:57]
Tony Robbins
It's in the air. How do we Find a happy. Where does the pendulum come back? Like, what do. Like I know you're not like, well, actually you are a mind reader. Actually, I was going to say, I know you're not a mind reader, but you are. But as a psychologist, like where do you, where do, where do you see the trends going for human behavior in this way, for society?
[60:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. I just wish I could be more optimistic about the, the trend lines.
[60:21]
Tony Robbins
Right.
[60:21]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But I think we're in the middle of something historically right now and it's needs to go through it before it gets better. And I, I again, I really wish I could just lie to you and say I feel great sense of optimism.
[60:37]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[60:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But because I am such a, usually such an optimistic guy. But if you read the tea leaves.
[60:42]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[60:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, we're going through a real change in leadership, a change in leader. What, what it means to be America. You know, what is, what does it mean to be an American? You know, and, and a lot of conceptualizations of, you know, we've never been more divided on morality issues, you know, and everyone thinks that they're the most moral person of them. All.
[61:09]
Tony Robbins
Right, exactly. It's true.
[61:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And it needs to go. We need to get through it to get out to the other side.
[61:16]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, I see. I think we're in a bad place personally.
[61:21]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But it doesn't mean you can't do your best.
[61:23]
Tony Robbins
You can't do exactly.
[61:25]
Scott Barry Kaufman
To show up in this world how you want to show up. There's my optimism.
[61:28]
Tony Robbins
There's your optimism. Okay, well on that though, how about cultivating psychological flexibility?
[61:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, that's super important because there's a whole research literature on the ACT approach to psychology. Act where you develop a psychological flexibility that allows you to change your goals, change your. Even if you're not feeling like you're in the mood to do something, you change based on your higher values. Where do you really want to go? I have this whole sailboat model of self actualization. Where is the port you want to sail to get really clear on that. And when you get really clear on that, a lot of your momentary by momentary decisions change and are different, you know, and psychological flexibility is the opposite of what's called experiential avoidance. A lot of people have experiential avoidance for things they avoid, things that may make them feel uncomfortable, you know, and, and, and as all the research shows, experiential avoidance is not the way to growth.
[62:28]
Tony Robbins
Well, that's why they say like in be. I've, I've seen a lot of law that the Idea of just overall, like psychological flexibility. Every type of flexibility. Adaptability is how people. That's. Those are the most healthy people in everything in life. Right. Being able to like go with the punches and change and.
[62:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[62:48]
Tony Robbins
And be malleable.
[62:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's called different things depending on what researcher you are and. But it's all the same.
[62:54]
Tony Robbins
It's all the same. Yeah.
[62:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
George Bonanno calls it the flexibility mindset.
[62:59]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[62:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
He says that's the most important thing for resilience, you know, but yeah, I mean that, that's where it's at is having that flexibility. Not even like flexible. Have got flexible identity as well. Like. Yeah, it's lacking these days. People are so, you know, hard set this. I am a Democrat.
[63:20]
Tony Robbins
Yeah.
[63:21]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, therefore don't even talk to me about the good anyone else could do if they're not a Democrat too, or I am a Republican. I don't mean to pick on the Democrats.
[63:30]
Tony Robbins
Right, right, right.
[63:31]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Whatever it is, I am this, I am that. And we've become such an identity obsessed culture where everything revolves around that that we're not leaving ourselves flexible to different ways of being, different ways of interacting with others with perspectives that may seem very different to the way we think. But you know, getting curious about it, being like, huh, you know, my identity isn't so rigid that I can't accommodate this other worldview at all. You know, it's saying you can, you can, you can integrate multiple things in this world.
[64:08]
Tony Robbins
Right, right, right, right. No, I think that's. I agree 100%. What else do you want to talk about from your book? Is there anything we're leaving out that's important that you want to talk about?
[64:18]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean, part one of the book is all about all the ways that you're a victim to your own inner self. You know, we often talk about like being a victim to external circumstances, but part one is all about being victim to your own need for self esteem, pleasing for your past to be a victim to your past, these sorts of things.
[64:33]
Tony Robbins
People pleasing is a big one too.
[64:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[64:35]
Tony Robbins
That's a big one too.
[64:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes. Do you identify with that at all?
[64:40]
Tony Robbins
I don't think so. I don't think I'm a people pleaser. That's cool. But I do think. What are you smiling at? Am I a people pleaser? Yeah, that's what I thought. That's not one of my problems. I have other issues way bigger than that, but that's not one of them. Are you a people pleaser?
[64:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Recover. I'm a recovered people Pleaser?
[64:59]
Tony Robbins
Really? What comes with that? What comes with being a people pleaser?
[65:03]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, I think part of it is it's a good thing. Like, you have empathy, right. You don't want to hurt people's feelings. But I've lived long enough on this planet at this point that I've noticed that not everything you do to piss someone off was anything you actually did.
[65:19]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, exactly.
[65:20]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's what. That's what recovered people pleasers, or people who want to be recovered, like me, need to really realize you can do. You know, like. Like an easy example is I'm in the Uber with this guy on the way here, people are honking their horn at him. We're trying to figure out what the heck is going on. People, you know, like, he's like, I'm doing everything right. I'm moving in the straight in my lane. People are honking their horns. Oh, how dare you. Fuck you. Whatever. I don't know if I want to curse, but it's like you can go and have the best of intentions and you still. And you still won't please everyone. In fact, the more there's a paradox, actually, it's interesting. The more you try to live a life where you don't ruffle any feathers like you try to do. I do everything right. I'm going to try to dot every. I. The more you actually piss people off.
[66:03]
Tony Robbins
That's the truth. Isn't that.
[66:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's a deep truth.
[66:05]
Tony Robbins
That is like Murphy's Law, though. Isn't that true? Maybe it's also like, no good deed goes unpunished. Right? Isn't that so true?
[66:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. You can't live your life making your decisions so that it pleases someone else. At a certain point, you lose your authenticity. You lose your soul.
[66:24]
Tony Robbins
You do. You lose your soul. Unfortunately, now you're recovering. So you're okay though, right now I'm.
[66:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm in a good place. This book is. Is a real. Is really like the Voice. My voice. Where it's at in 2025. I don't think I could have written this book in 10 years ago. No, no, no, no, no.
[66:43]
Tony Robbins
Because why?
[66:45]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, my God, my books. We're always so, like, trying to please everyone. No, no.
[66:50]
Tony Robbins
Really?
[66:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Well, not. I mean, maybe I'm being too hard on myself, but they were definitely just sugary, sweet books. You know, this book has some.
[67:00]
Tony Robbins
This was a little bit more. You're pull. Yeah, you're like. You're pulling out some, like, stops there. A little bit. A little edgier.
[67:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Living on the wild side a little bit.
[67:09]
Tony Robbins
But your stuff that you talked about in earlier years about intelligence, that's not exactly that.
[67:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's true. It did try to challenge the system. That's true. But there's.
[67:19]
Tony Robbins
But why? Tell me why. I love the intelligence part. So you can talk about all day if you want.
[67:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I had. For many, many years, I thought my mission on life was to redefine intelligence. For the first 23rd. For the first 30 years of my life, I think I thought that that's why I was on this planet, was to take on the iq, you know, and researchers and school psychologists and change the education system and show that we need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence. And I wrote a book called Ungifted, which outlined a lot of my view on that. But then. And then I was like, oh, I'm still alive, you know.
[67:57]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[67:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
What's next? And I. And I. You keep seeing their higher amount. There are higher mountains to climb. Even you don't know it at the time.
[68:04]
Tony Robbins
What was your main theme about intelligence that, you know, that you researched?
[68:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, it was, you know, neurodiversity, the idea that there are people with a lot of hidden strengths and forms of intelligence that we really don't pick up on in an IQ test, you know, or at school, you know, in a classroom. And I really wanted to shine a spotlight on those individuals. They don't just have to be kids. They could be adults, too.
[68:28]
Tony Robbins
Totally.
[68:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[68:29]
Tony Robbins
I think that we get really stuck in this idea that if. If you're not academically smart, then you're not smart at all.
[68:35]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[68:36]
Tony Robbins
And there's so many other.
[68:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
A lot of really stupid, stupid academics.
[68:39]
Tony Robbins
Most academics can be really stupid. Well, a lot of them are socially inept. They can't. Like, they don't know how to socialize that some they don't have. They don't have. They don't have an eq. There's no. Right.
[68:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[68:50]
Tony Robbins
They don't have emotional intelligence. They don't. Maybe they're not, like, talented. They don't have, like, spatial awareness, spatial intelligence. There's a lot of different.
[68:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I don't have spatial intelligence.
[68:59]
Tony Robbins
You don't.
[68:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I suck at spatial.
[69:00]
Tony Robbins
What's your AC?
[69:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But, you know, you're 5 EQ, I VQ.
[69:03]
Tony Robbins
You do. Yeah, but I think.
[69:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Surprised.
[69:05]
Tony Robbins
I don't know. I mean, I don't know you well enough, but I think you have. You have a lot of academic intelligence. You can. You can retain a lot of information.
[69:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes. But I bet. At directions.
[69:16]
Tony Robbins
Well, you can be bad at directions, but like, you've sprouted out. Like, you quoted a bunch of people in this podcast, like Carl, blah, blah, blah, says that.
[69:25]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And I am very scholarly.
[69:27]
Tony Robbins
You're very scholarly. It's true. So when in all of your learnings and intelligence, what was. Like, what are a couple. Something. Some. Some very cogent points that you can share with us.
[69:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Like, based on everything I've ever studied.
[69:40]
Tony Robbins
In my life, success and intelligence.
[69:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
It's all about the habits and the hustle.
[69:45]
Tony Robbins
It's definitely about the habits.
[69:46]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. If you ask. If you ask me.
[69:49]
Tony Robbins
Yes. Okay. However.
[69:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And what I mean by that is.
[69:52]
Tony Robbins
Yes, go ahead.
[69:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, so much of life is, is really connecting with yourself and really getting deep, deep down into and taking responsibility for your whole self, not just the parts of you that you like. There's. I call it the authenticity bias. We only circle the adjectives that are positive and say, that's the real me, and all this stuff isn't the real you. But really taking responsibility for your whole existence and being passionate about what you do and really putting that grid into it. If you don't have the self belief, none of this stuff is going to, you know. No. I hate to say it, but no one's coming to save you.
[70:33]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, no idea. That's true. The reason why I was asking, I really wanted to kind of get into the intelligence thing is.
[70:38]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
[70:39]
Tony Robbins
Oh, yeah, the intelligence thing. I did my first TED talk a long time ago was about the idea of being bold. And I talk about this idea that it went like pretty viral, that I'm a big believer that it's not about how smart. I think boldness is way more important than intelligence. I think if you're, if you're bold enough to go after something, those are the people that win in life. Because a lot of times when you're smart, right, Academically, you tend to overthink, you tend to have analysis paralysis. You're very myopic in one way. Right. Versus people who are out there going, so that's why whenever I see it, that's how I initially found like, you know, because everything about my stuff was around intelligence and boldness. And just you came up and I loved what you were talking about because it's so, it's so true and it's so important. And I think people get so stuck on like, oh, I'm stupid because you've got bad school grades, but you could be really, really brilliant in other ways that will. And you will supersede the rest of those people?
[71:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, for sure. If you wanted some of my insights about intelligence specifically, I really do have this whole theory where I argue that we can distinguish between intellectual curiosity and intellectual sort of raw processing speed, so to speak. There are a lot of people that don't have a shred of intellectual curiosity but are good at solving IQ type problems and they can spit out complex math equations but are not particularly curious about getting to know others as well as intellectually curious. I think no matter what your IQ is, you can still be to a certain degree there's intellectual disability which makes it very difficult. But. But we all can be more curious about the world, how it works and about what the truth is about things. So many smart people right now who are not curious, particularly curious about the truth.
[72:31]
Tony Robbins
Yeah, well, 100%. I think that's why the whole intellectually, the whole curiosity piece I think is the most important part. Because if you're a curious person, that's the pathway to learn, for opportunity, for communication, for connection. If you don't have that peace, you can be solving problems all day and all night and you're gonna get nowhere fast. Best really like you'll have. The ceiling is much lower than what you said. Yeah. Thank you. All right, well, Scott, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.
[72:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
What a wide ranging conversation.
[73:01]
Tony Robbins
I know I wanted to cover. Like I said, I wanted you here for a long time and I, I may have seen a little sprat, like a little bit all over the place because there are so many things like I told you that, that I like that you talk about and.
[73:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, you were great.
[73:14]
Tony Robbins
Oh, thank you. You were great. The book is great. Rise above is really, really good. And I just, like I said, keep on doing what you're doing. You, you do a lot of research, right? Like I do remember it. Like you remember everything.
[73:26]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I, I have a bit of something within psychology where I can remember everything. Yeah, like.
[73:31]
Tony Robbins
Do you have like a photographic memory?
[73:32]
Scott Barry Kaufman
No, only within psychology.
[73:34]
Tony Robbins
But you can remember everything you've ever seen in it because it's pretty.
[73:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Something some people have said that. Have said that about me. Yeah, there's something about that where I remember every study I've come across and can. And it comes back to me at the right time. I don't know. But I don't have that about everything in my life.
[73:49]
Tony Robbins
No. But with that it works. So do you as a cognitive psychologist, you do a lot of research?
[73:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[73:54]
Tony Robbins
You have your coaching program, you write books.
[73:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
The center for Human Potential.
[73:58]
Tony Robbins
The center for and so what else are you doing with your time? Or. That's a bit. That's a lot of. That's a lot of stuff.
[74:06]
Scott Barry Kaufman
No, there's a lot. So there's. This book has come out podcast I write for my substack called Beautiful Minds is the name of my substack. And I have. In this fall, I'll be full time at Columbia Barnard College. Columbia.
[74:20]
Tony Robbins
Teaching full time.
[74:21]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the process of moving back to New York.
[74:24]
Tony Robbins
You are?
[74:25]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
[74:27]
Tony Robbins
Congratulations.
[74:28]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Thank you.
[74:29]
Tony Robbins
Full time, huh? Do you know they just.
[74:31]
Scott Barry Kaufman
At least for a year. At least for a year.
[74:32]
Tony Robbins
Do you know that they just took away $400 million in funding?
[74:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm very aware of everything going on over there.
[74:38]
Tony Robbins
I'm sure you do. What do you think about that?
[74:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That another time?
[74:43]
Tony Robbins
Okay. Okay. So congratulations. Oh, that's a great job. A great job. On the book. On the new job. And where do people find. People can find the book wherever. On Amazon. Wherever. And you're on Instagram?
[74:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Insta. I'm on Insta at Scott Barrett Kaufman or the amazing Dr. Scott, if you want to follow my magician page.
[75:04]
Tony Robbins
Right. That's exactly it. You promise you're going to do it with me after?
[75:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
After Maybe off once again?
[75:09]
Tony Robbins
Yes, of course, Course. Okay. Thank you, guys. Thank you for being on here.