Episode 485: Mark Cuban: Why Most Entrepreneurs Hire Wrong (And Go Broke)

Summary

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Habits and Hustle | Episode 485

Mark Cuban: Why Most Entrepreneurs Hire Wrong (And Go Broke)

Host: Jen Cohen
Guest: Mark Cuban
Date: September 19, 2025

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Overview

This episode brings billionaire entrepreneur, investor, and owner of the Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban, into a candid and energetic conversation with Jen Cohen. They dig deep into the most common mistakes entrepreneurs make—especially hiring mismatches—and discuss strategies for success spanning hiring practices, the art of building community, crypto realities, and staying self-reliant as a founder. Cuban also shares personal insights on imposter syndrome, the real business of sports, and his outlook on emerging tech like AI and NFTs, all with his irreverent humor and trademark directness.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Why Most Entrepreneurs Hire Wrong

• The Foundational Mistake:
  Cuban asserts that founders often mistakenly hire experts expecting them to "know what to do," then blame the hire when things don’t work out.

  “Entrepreneurs tend to think, okay, I'm hiring this amazing marketing person and he or she is going to know what to do… Then it's not. Then they go to the next marketing person… then they're in this hamster wheel again and they're screwed.” — Mark Cuban (01:55)

• Importance of Self-Reliance:
  As a founder, you must know how to solve your company’s problems yourself before delegating or scaling.

  "You've got to be able to solve the problem yourself, self-reliant." — Mark Cuban (02:16)

• Managing Growth:
  The challenge evolves as the company grows from 5 to 15+ people, which brings managerial complexity—but founders must first master their company’s core competencies.

  “If you’re not great at your core competency, how are you going to train those people?” — Mark Cuban (02:22)

• Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome:
  Even at his level, Cuban still feels imposter syndrome in rooms of experts, especially those with deep domain knowledge.

  “I've gone through it… like, oh shit, can I do this right? Or am I smart enough… talented enough…? I still have imposter syndrome.” — Mark Cuban (02:48)
  "It's not like an Elon Musk... it's just somebody who has domain knowledge." — Mark Cuban (03:24)

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2. The Emotional Business of Sports

• Redefining the Industry:
  Cuban highlights that the core business of sports is emotion and entertainment, not basketball itself.

  “Basketball is the platform, but emotion and entertainment is what we sell.” — Mark Cuban (06:03)

• Memorable Moments:
  People remember the experience—who they were with, the emotion—not the score.

  “Name the last game you went to and tell me what the score was. Nobody remembers… Tell me who you were with. Everybody knows.” — Mark Cuban (04:40)

• Value Beyond Dollars:
  He discusses buying the Mavericks for $285M (now valued far higher), motivated purely by his love of the game, not just financial return.

  "Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think... I could put my money where my mouth is." — Mark Cuban (06:55)

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3. Smart Growth: Margins, Advertising, and the Brand Trap

• Focus on Margins and Real Value:
  Cuban is skeptical of pouring money into advertising unless it directly drives sales—he urges entrepreneurs to test, iterate, and avoid vanity brand plays.

  “I'm never a fan of spending a boatload…. I’m a fan of test a lot. Test and retest, test and learn.” — Mark Cuban (11:08)
  “I’m not a fan of brand advertising. You earn your brand and your brand captures an identity based off of your execution.” — Mark Cuban (12:04)

• Differentiation and Customer Stress:
  The two things you truly sell are how you’re different and why you’re the least stressful option for your customers.

  "Business is about selling two things. How you're different and why you're the path of least resistance so that people have a reason to buy... how do you reduce your customer stress?" — Mark Cuban (12:45)

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4. Building Authentic Community

• Organic Growth Only:
  Community has to grow naturally around real customer engagement, not from forced marketing.

  “With community again, it's got to be organic… be responsive to everybody because you learn about your customers.” — Mark Cuban (13:32)

• Double-Edged Sword:
  Community can turn against you if customers are unhappy; it demands authenticity and continuous value.

  "Because if your customers are not happy, you're toast. Because that community is just going to turn on you so fast, 100%. Especially now." — Mark Cuban (14:06)

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5. Real Talk on Crypto, NFTs & Tech Hype

• Lessons from Failures (Voyager):
  Cuban and Cohen commiserate over losses in Voyager crypto, with Cuban dissecting why it went under and warning there's no such thing as a sure thing.

  “I've been investing a long time and I've seen companies make mistakes for things that were supposed to be riskless… Nothing's ever, ever riskless.” — Mark Cuban (16:38)

• Educate Yourself & FOMO:
  On crypto and all investments, don’t fall to FOMO—do the work, no shortcuts.

  “You got to fight that feeling [of FOMO]… there's just no shortcuts.” — Mark Cuban (19:19, 19:25)

• The Two Cryptos:

  1. Store Value (Bitcoin/gold): Driven by supply, demand, and narratives.
  2. Everything Else (Utility tokens, meme coins): Value is in use or belief.

  “For me, with crypto, there's two types of crypto tokens. One is store value, which is really only bitcoin... and the other kind are just tokens.” — Mark Cuban (20:22)

• NFTs Are Just Digital Collectibles:
  Value comes from meaning and demand, just like physical art or baseball cards.

  "NFTs... they're like any other collectible. Art. Right. What makes a Picasso worth all that money?... The fact that it's digital doesn't make it any more or less valuable. Makes it easier to buy and sell." — Mark Cuban (22:53, 23:29)

• Real Use-Case for Crypto & NFTs (with the Mavericks):
  Example: Free NFT collectible for game attendees, which can later unlock exclusive perks and gamify the fan experience.

  “For every [Mavs] game, we create a unique NFT… and whoever goes to the most games or collects the most… gets free tickets to a preseason game. We don't say in advance what we're going to give you… we try to reward you.” — Mark Cuban (25:04)

• Future Waves (AI & Utility):
  Utility is king; the next tech boom happens when crypto, AI, or other tech is necessary for practical, new use-cases.

  “Crypto will start taking off again when you can use it for some level of utility... when there's an application so compelling people need the platform.” — Mark Cuban (26:52)

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6. Mark Cuban’s Life & Learning Hacks

• Unconventional Education:
  Cuban got into Indiana University without finishing high school, transferring college credits and sneaking into MBA classes at 18.

  "I snuck into a graduate level statistics class, got an A in it, and they thought I was in the MBA program when I was 18... I was even tutoring people." — Mark Cuban (27:50)

• Reading Habits & Recommendations:
  Cuban loves books on statistics and AI—recent favorites:

  • The Signal and the Noise by Nate Silver
  • The Master Algorithm by Pedro Domingos

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sports and Emotion:

  “When Apple has a great quarter, they don’t throw parades in Cupertino. When the Lakers or Mavericks win a championship, the whole city goes insane.” — Mark Cuban (05:42)

• On Brand Building:

  “You earn your brand and your brand captures an identity based off your execution.” — Mark Cuban (12:04)

• On Risk:

  “Nothing’s ever, ever riskless.” — Mark Cuban (16:47)

• On Community:

  “Community... should be part of every business. To me that's part of the blocking and tackling... like answering your emails.” — Mark Cuban (13:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:55] — Why entrepreneurs often hire poorly and the risks of dependency
• [03:04] — Mark Cuban’s persistent imposter syndrome
• [04:40] — The true emotional value in sports
• [06:24] — The story behind buying the Mavericks
• [10:51] — Perspective on advertising, margins, and product-market fit
• [12:04] — Branding: Execution beats image
• [13:32] — Building and maintaining a genuine community
• [16:07] — Voyager crypto collapse and real investment risks
• [20:22] — Cryptocurrencies: store value vs. utility
• [22:53] — What NFTs really are, and where they have value
• [25:04] — Mavericks' NFT strategy and the future of crypto utility
• [27:50] — Mark Cuban’s unorthodox academic path
• [28:36] — Favorite recent books

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TL;DR

Mark Cuban pulls back the curtain on why founders fail (hint: they rely too much on hiring, not enough on learning and adaptation), how emotion—not points or stats—powers the business of sports, the hard truths behind brand-building and advertising, why community can make or break a startup, what’s real in the crypto and NFT space, and why true utility is the future. Candid, instructive, and full of hard-won wisdom—with plenty of “only Mark Cuban” stories and memorable one-liners.

Transcript

[A]

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Entrepreneurs tend to think, okay, I'm hiring this amazing marketing person and he or she is going to know what to do.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then they tell that to their investors because that's typically why they're hiring a marketing person. And they say, oh, this person's amazing. You know, our next quarter is going to be great. Then it's not. Then they go to the next marketing person, you know, then they're in this hamster wheel again and they're screwed.

[B]

And it's also relying on other people.

[A]

Well, yes. And that's the whole thing, right? You've got to be able to solve.

[B]

The problem yourself, self reliant.

[A]

Now, you know, at some point your business gets bigger and you have to learn how to do a lot of other things. You know, when you go to five people, it's one thing, you go to 10 or 15, it's another challenge, you know, as you learn how to manage and deal with people. But at the same time, if you're not great at your core competency, how are you going to train those people?

[B]

Right.

[A]

How are you going to know what the goals are for the organization and how to communicate to them how to do what you need them to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and. But every entrepreneur goes through that terror. Right? I've gone through, it's like, oh shit, you know, can I do this right? Or am I smart enough or good enough or talented enough to sell these out? Yeah. I mean, we all have imposter syndrome. I still have imposter syndrome.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Hell yeah. You walk into a circumstance, I'm like, and there's name people that, that names anybody would recognize.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, what the am I doing here?

[B]

No way.

[A]

Oh yeah. All the time.

[B]

Yeah. Who would you be intimidated by?

[A]

I'm not gonna get name names, but.

[B]

Yeah, but there are people.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And it's not like an Elon Musk or whatever. It's just somebody who has domain knowledge. Like if I'm sitting in a meeting, we're discussing artificial intelligence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I understand artificial intelligence and I've done a lot of reading, so I have a good grasp of it. But this person has created neural networks and models that, you know, have a billion parameters, things that I won't even know how to start to do. Yeah, I can understand the conversation.

[B]

Right. The concept.

[A]

Right. Yeah. But I'm not going to know operationally how to execute on it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's just scary. It is scary because you're afraid that, okay, did I read enough right? Because they're, they're living this day to day and I'm never going to catch up and know the state. Sitting down with the Mavs, you know, with Jason Kidd, there's. He's forgot more about basketball than I'll ever know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so you just, you know, it just.

[B]

But you, you're his boss. Technically. So. Yeah, but I, you know, teach you on the side. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, I mean, I can read and learn and add the value that I add, you know, for analytics, etc, whatever it may be. But yeah, everybody's going to have that self doubt. The question is, what business are you in? Because a lot of companies don't even know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like when I got to the NBA, they thought they were in the basketball business.

[B]

I know, but you changed that whole team around.

[A]

Well, it's not just a team. Right? The NBA. Yeah, the NBA used to think they marketed basketball.

[B]

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

[A]

But you know, I sat there with him, I said, okay, name the last game you went to and tell me what the score was. Nobody remembers unless it Was just a big game.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Name your favorite donk or shot. No one remembers anyone. Tell me who you were with.

[B]

And everybody knows, everyone remembers that you.

[A]

Remember the first game you went to with your parents, your aunt, your uncle, whatever.

[B]

You're going to remember the emotional part.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's why you go. Because it' the one place you can scream and yell.

[B]

Yeah, and you do.

[A]

Yeah, and I do. Right. But where else? You know, you're not going to see me yell here or there, whatever. But when you go to a game, you know, if, you know, you feel that energy and everybody knows they're part of the entertainment. Right. Because you're yelling, defense, defense. And that ball's in the air for a game winning or losing shot and everybody's holding their breath. And if it goes through, you're high fiving and hugging people you've never seen before in your life. That's what makes going to a game special. Feeling, that energy. And they thought it was about, you know, oh, you know, who has the prettiest jump shot.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. It's all about the emotional part.

[A]

It's all about the emotional attachment because that's what sports are and that's what makes sports different than any other business. And I had to explain that to him. It was just like, you know, when Apple, which has the biggest market cap in the world, has a great quarter. They don't throw parades in Cupertino.

[B]

No, they do not.

[A]

Right. When the Lakers or Mavericks or whoever win a championship, the whole city goes insane.

[B]

It's so true.

[A]

You know, that's unique to sports. And you have to recognize what business are you in? Basketball is the platform, but emotion and entertainment is what we sell.

[B]

So how did you turn it? Like. So you bought the Mavericks, by the way. I mean, at. By the way, great investment for you, right? Yeah, really good. What? 285. You bought it for 285 million and now it's worth like 2.5 billion.

[A]

A lot more than that.

[B]

How much now is it worth like four?

[A]

I'm not going to sell it.

[B]

Why would you? I mean, exactly. Not going to sell. But I'm just curious.

[A]

Turned out to be undervalued.

[B]

Yeah, Y. I mean, that's pretty amazing though.

[A]

It is. It's crazy.

[B]

And that you bought it purely on just passion for basketball.

[A]

I mean, I still play pickup, you know, so it tells you, you know, I, I can go out before the game starts and just get up shots, you know, on my own court, you know, my own arena, that must be.

[B]

So can you. Would you ever. When you were a kid, did you ever think that that was.

[A]

Hell no.

[B]

Ever?

[A]

Never. Yeah, never in my wildest dreams that ever crossed my mind. It really didn't cross my mind until after I sold my company and had enough money and it was like, now what? Shit, yeah. Now I can put my money where my mouth is.

[B]

But you're smart. Then can you explain why? Like, how did you even think. Because I like you took you. You got. When Yahoo bought Broadcast.com, that you got it in stock, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you turned, you had. You hedged it or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What does that even mean? To get it into cash.

[A]

So it was a public. You know, when we got sold, Yahoo. We were a public company, paid for us in stock. And because Yahoo. Also was a public company, you could sell options on it. So I could sell calls, which gave up part of the upside but allowed me to buy something called puts, which protected my down. And so I sold calls, bought puts. That's called a hedge. And I did it for my entire position. And it was.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And when the whole, you know, bubble burst for the dot com error, you know, I actually made more money. And so. Yeah, it's been called one of the top 10 trades of all time.

[B]

Of all time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that like changed your entire life.

[A]

Well, of course. I mean, because there were a lot of people who made a lot of money in stock and on paper. Just thought I'll disappear if it wasn't.

[B]

For that like that decision point.

[A]

Yeah. You wouldn't know who I am.

[B]

I would never know who you were. Like, you sold the first one, what, for 6 million or something? Like, which is not.

[A]

Which is great for 29, 30 year old. Right. But it's not, you know, it's not billions of dollars.

[B]

Like. And then like you bought this company, you bought the Mavericks from. How did that happen? Ross Perot.

[A]

I was. Yeah. He. He didn't care about basketball. It was a real estate deal for me. But I was a season ticket holder and somebody connected me and like in less than a month I bought it. And Jerry Bush, I'm sure you can see. Yep.

[B]

That's amazing. And so do you go to all the games?

[A]

Unless my kids have something.

[B]

Unless. Well, don't the kids also want to go to. But now they're probably. Are they as obsessed with it as you are?

[A]

My, my son is becoming more and more so My daughter, my middle daughter likes it. My oldest daughter. It's just. Yeah. Just social. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Just Support the social part. Yeah, that's so. So. So basically right now it's the. It's the basketball and it's cost plus. Those are the two biggies.

[A]

Well, cost plus basketball, you know, except for free agency, basketball kind of runs itself.

[B]

Were you at summer league just now?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I was there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do it because I love it. Right?

[B]

Well, yeah. Why do people go anyway, like your level? Like, are they just going to see the players?

[A]

Yeah, well, it just depends. For me, I just like basketball.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you're a different story.

[A]

But, yeah, you know, you've got to recruit and you've got to identify talent and all that kind of stuff. It's just like hiring programmers or hiring videographers or hiring producers or whatever.

[B]

But you just, like, love it so much.

[A]

Yeah, no, I enjoy it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So what was the other. Okay, wait, I lost what I was going to say to you. Hold on. I think that's basically. Well, where were we before I talked about the summer league? The thing. The. No, not the. The other thing, too. What was the other thing? That's going to.

[A]

Just about entrepreneurial stuff.

[B]

Just entrepreneurial stuff. I don't even remember what I was going to say. Do you have anything else you want to say?

[A]

What were we talking about? Entrepreneurs.

[B]

We're talking about entrepreneurs failure. I mean, habits.

[A]

Sure. So for the.

[B]

This is a mirror.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I saw Shark Tank.

[B]

I got to put that over there. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

What was talking about, like, these companies not raising or not advertising and making margin, that's what you talk about a lot is like, what's your margin? Forget about the top line. Obviously, with like Facebook and Instagram, there's been an opportunity for companies to scale using ads. Well, it depends on how much money you have. So the question about, you know, spending money for advertising, whether it's search or other things, it depends what type of company you are. You know, I think for most entrepreneurial companies, particularly startups, that you have to know what sells your product. Now, if you're just trying to get scale and you're selling it direct to consumer, you're probably going to have to advertise unless you find a better way to do it virally. Right. But you have to know what sells your product. Like with Alyssa's, you know, it's.

[B]

I love that you always use her.

[A]

Yeah. It's easy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cost plus drugs. It's easy. It's easy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we have another company, Wild Earth, which is vegan dog food. It's harder because you have to explain it.

[B]

Yeah, the education piece is.

[A]

Yeah, so there's an education piece. But the challenge now is because of the changes Apple made to privacy, getting a return on advertising spend roas is much more difficult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you're having to become a lot more innovative in how you sell your products. You know, in streaming products, whatever it is, you've got to find what the most cost effective way to go is. Now part of the challenge is that learning process. So I'm never a fan of selling of spending a boatload. I'm a fan of test a lot. Test and retest, test and learn. Because it always evolves and spending. For search engine advertising or Facebook ads, whatever it may be, YouTube, you're competing with everybody in your category and that's getting the price higher and it's getting the returns lower in a lot of respects. So you've got to understand what the compelling aspect is for people to say yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, what is the path of least resistance for you getting someone to say yes and you don't want to go all in. And the other thing I'll say for startups is I'm not a fan of brand advertising.

[B]

You're not?

[A]

No, not even a little bit. You earn your brand and your brand captures an identity based off of your execution. Right. What do you mean to your customers? That is your brand.

[B]

All the customers do. Let. Let the customer.

[A]

Yeah, the customers define your brand. If you're trying to show pretty pictures and people running on the beach and all this and you're kind of, you know, virtue signaling to your business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's typically a waste of money unless you're Pepsi or Coke or whatever. And you know, and then the other thing that I see, a lot of companies make mistakes and they hire a marketing or finance, whatever, and they just do MBA one on one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. This is what I learned in, you know, in finance or entrepreneurship or my MBA classes. So this must be what you do, right? No. Right. Context matters a lot. You know, what's your competition doing? How do you differentiate yourself? And you always want to focus on your differentiation. Business is about selling two things. How you're different and why you're the path of least resistance so that people have a reason to buy. And maybe you can encapsulate that is how do you reduce your customer stress?

[B]

How about community? Now I feel like everybody's doing two different things. One is like they're trying to build a community. Right. The other is attaching to a cause. Yeah, right.

[A]

Having a Mission is all good.

[B]

Having a mission.

[A]

Right. And you know, community, typically with NFTs, you see that. Right.

[B]

That's what I did. I was like avoiding.

[A]

But with community again, it's got to be organic and it's great to set up a discord server or set up a Facebook group and have somebody that you work, that works for you or you even. I try to do it myself a lot of cases.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Be responsive to everybody because you get to learn about your customers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So community is great. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it should be part of every business. That to me that's part of the blocking and tackling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it's like answering your emails or having an info email address.

[B]

Right. That's so. Okay. So that's actually, I mean that's interesting because I found like that's the hardest part for, for companies to do is build that community. Right.

[A]

Yeah. It takes time, but it takes happy customers because it can work against you too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because if your customers are not happy, you're toast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that community is just going to.

[B]

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[A]

But yeah, I did, too. Yeah, a lot. Yeah.

[B]

So is it gone now?

[A]

No, I don't think it's gone.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

You might not get all of it back. So if you had US Dollars, USD, you'll get it all back.

[B]

I will, yes.

[A]

If. Yeah. So not usdc, but USD. There's two different things. USD was stored, was in a bank account. USDC is still considered crypto.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Because that's like, I was, you know, when you had. I don't know, I got to check now because I just found out, obviously, a couple of days ago, but this. I was like, mortified.

[A]

No, it's brutal. Yeah.

[B]

It's hard, the whole thing, because also, it was. It was such high. It was such. It was so hyped.

[A]

They made a mistake. I mean, it's like, look, I've been investing a long time and I've seen companies make mistakes for things that were supposed to be riskless.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[A]

I mean, nothing's ever, ever riskless.

[B]

Right, but close enough.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I remember I had a bank call me. I had a lot of money in the bank, and fortunately they called me and said, this bank's about to go under and so you better pull your money out now. And so, you know, I was fortunate. But unfortunately, Voyager did a deal with this company called 3ac, 3 Arrows Capital, and that it looked good on paper, but the company basically lied about their finances and.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Because Voyager is a public company in Toronto. I actually even own stock. I bought stock, you know, so did I buy.

[B]

I'm Canadian too, so. From Toronto.

[A]

Toronto. Yeah. So I bought stock in the company on the Toronto Exchange, thinking, okay, you know, but when 3ac went bankrupt, it was just had that contagion. But, you know, in. In reading all the filings, basically what Voyager is saying is, you know, we. We have a. We have. The USD is cash in the bank. At their bank.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And so if you have that, you'll get 100% back. The USDC and crypto, it really depends on how much they're able to collect from. From. Yeah. What's that?

[B]

I have the other one. Not the one I'm going to get back.

[A]

Yeah, the usdc. Yeah. And I had a lot of USDC there, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it was making eight and a half percent.

[B]

It was making. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And so. And this is why I was making eight and a half percent.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And so hopefully, you know, if what they say in their filing is accurate, And. And I have no reason to believe it's not. And the judge that's dealing with the bankruptcy agrees. Then they'll be able to put consumer accounts first to get probably 60, 70% of the crypto back.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. And then what. What they've said in their filings in public that they're going to try to do is for the other 30 or 40% because they're bankrupt. The old stock that I own is worth. Is worthless.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

They'll try to, in the new company, though, recreate it and give stock and tokens to those people to hopefully, if it turns out to be worth anything, make up the Delta.

[B]

Wow. So what do you think? I mean, obviously you're like, very involved. You invest in a lot of this stuff. People like me and probably a lot of more, I would say a majority of the population don't really understand this whole idea. But then what happens is we get like. Not pressure, kind of.

[A]

No, it's pressured, yes. Like anything else. Everybody's making money.

[B]

Everyone's making all. Everyone's like telling me this, like, crazy monopoly money. So then I feel like I'm. I'm missing out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I put a bunch of money.

[A]

You got to fight that feeling.

[B]

I. Tell me about it now, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the question is like, is there a way to educate people properly?

[A]

Because you just got to do the.

[B]

Work and I mean, I knew you.

[A]

Were going to say that, but there's just no shortcuts.

[B]

I wish there were there. This is one area that you're so one.

[A]

One difference between. Look, stocks are the same way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So if you look at your stock portfolio, if you have any tech stocks at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's gotten crushed.

[B]

Yeah, Everything's getting crushed.

[A]

Yeah. And it's gotten crushed as much as Bitcoin or Ethereum. Right. So you always have to ask yourself, is the company a good company, you know, or is the value? Because part of the problem with the tech stocks is their valuations went too high because interest rates were so low. And so people had nowhere else to put their money. So they put into crypto and they put it into high fly and tech stocks and other things.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And when interest rates have been going up over the last few months, it's like, okay, well I can earn 2 or 3 or 4%. Why am I going to take the risk on the. On crypto or on these stocks?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'll just yank it out. And you know, Amazon has fallen what, 50, 60, 70%. Netflix 70 or 80%. Yeah. Everything has gotten destroyed. Even Apple has gone down 30 some percent. And so, you know, there's no way you can predict all of that. You know, it doesn't matter who you are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Stocks don't always just go up, even though it feels like it. And it's the same with crypto, but for me, with crypto, there's two types of crypto tokens. One is store value, which is really only bitcoin. And that's kind of like gold. You know, there's all kinds of narratives that say, well, if you hold gold when there's heavy inflation, the price of gold will go up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Price of gold's gone down. Right. During all this inflation. And so that's. But it's a narrative that gets people to buy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's the same with bitcoin. You know, there's only 21 million going to be made. So if there's inflation, you, you know, don't have to worry about that. Hasn't worked either. But the reality is those store values are just about supply and demand. If there's more people buying than selling, the price goes up, right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

If there's more people selling than buying, the price goes down. Now good news with both gold and bitcoin is most people just hold them and wait it out. That's one kind of crypto and the other kind are just tokens and you know, like ethereum.

[B]

And you have. Doesn't you guys use dogecoin?

[A]

Dogecoin, yeah. Dogecoin is just fun. Dogecoin is like the on ramp for crypto.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You can use it to buy stuff and everything. Like you can go buy the mav store and buy tickets and buy whatever. But you know, there's, it's, it's like what I've said is just, it's a better lottery ticket. Yeah, A lottery ticket. Because when once you scratch it, if you don't win on your lottery ticket, it's over. At least with dogecoin, it's got a chance still to go.

[B]

That has a chance. So like, so how about nft? What's, what's with this nft? Like, it's the same thing. Told me about Chris. What's his face? Chris. Chris Brown. Chris Brown. Do you see this? He has like 100 million follower. 120 million followers on social media. He made an.

[A]

The singer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he sold like what, they made how many of these?

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like art, right?

[B]

No, it's yeah, No, I understand what it is, but I feel like everybody in their dog now is like doing one and having one.

[A]

Yeah, but it's just, it's just like, you know, anybody who collected baseball cards.

[B]

So is it the same.

[A]

Same thing. Yeah. Only a digital version of a collectible. That's it. And so, you know, if I buy and if you want to see my NFTs, go to lazy.com mcuben.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it's another company I started. Right.

[B]

I was going to ask you about this lazy one also. What is that?

[A]

It's just a way you just go to lazy.com, set up an account, connect your wallets, and it's an easy way, you know, to put in your Instagram profile or at the bottom of an email. Check out my NFTs. Lazy.com mcuban okay, I'm going to check them out. Yeah. So if you have NFTs in your wallet, it's a really easy thing to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But NFTs, you know, they're like any other collectible art. Right. What makes a Picasso worth all that money?

[B]

True. But at least that I'll have a Picasso. Not like, if I were to buy a print of the Picasso. It doesn't cost me anything. It cost me like 10 bucks.

[A]

Well, yeah. What's the same thing? Right? Yeah, but there are some certain prints of things that cost you a lot.

[B]

True. You know, Andy Warhol online, like, who cares? Like, would I rather have on my wall?

[A]

Well, we'll think about it this way. If you run out of space on your phone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you have to delete pictures.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How painful is that?

[B]

I don't like it.

[A]

It's painful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, there's my baby. And there's this. Right. There's value. Just because it's digital doesn't mean there's not value. True. And if it's art from somebody that you respect or like, and you know, you can, you can have it show up on your screensaver, on your laptop, on your PC, on your phone. So, you know, it's just a collectible. And the fact that it's digital doesn't make it digital. Doesn't make it any more or less valuable. Makes it easier to buy and sell. Faster to buy and sell. But it comes down to supply and demand. You know, if nobody cares about Picasso.

[B]

True.

[A]

That Picasso is going down in value.

[B]

Like, are you buying? You know how Snoop bought some area and Metaverse and the web.

[A]

No. I think that's a joke. Yeah.

[B]

What what is this?

[A]

You know, in the metaverse, you know, if you can get people to go there, and that's a place to, you know, congregate and hang out with your avatar and I look at. I.

[B]

Do you understand why it's so complicated?

[A]

Yeah, I get it. You know, this Second Life and other places like that have been around forever. It's just that the technology is advanced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the idea of, you know, buying digital real estate in the metaverse and thinking it's going to appreciate for some reason other than just, you know, convincing somebody else to buy it. Yeah, I'm not sold on that.

[B]

So you're not doing that. So what's the next wave like, what's. What's the next thing you should look for?

[A]

Well, it'll be crypto.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's artificial intelligence, but that's way too complicated. That's a whole nother beast. But.

[B]

Well, that's all happening, like, everything.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

AI is driving a lot. Yeah, but.

[B]

And that's one of the things you're really big in, right?

[A]

No, because you got to know it. Yeah, because I've got to know for my companies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But with crypto, it comes down to utility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So like with the Dallas Mavericks, if you go to a Mavs game and you scan your ticket before the end of the first quarter, we're for every game, we create a unique NFT and get it for free. You don't have to buy it, you get it for free. And if you go to mavscollectibles.com you can see what we have there. And if once you've scanned your ticket in, you go to Mass Collectibles, it'll be there waiting for you. You don't have to create a wallet or do all this other stuff, and you can buy them and trade them and sell them or, you know, whatever, but whoever goes to the most games or collects the most, you know, we'll give you free tickets to a preseason game. Right. And we don't say in advance what we're going to give you. Right. We just try to reward you based off of what we see in the market and all that. So sometimes, like in this case, an NFT is a reflection of something you've done. And in our case with the Mavs, you've gone to a game, and we want to reward that. And so, you know, by. Have whoever had the biggest collection, I think we sent them a special jacket, you know, and just stuff like that that we don't. We don't say buy this so you can get a jacket. We say, you know, this tells us you're fandom because you're going to games.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because that's the behavior we want to reward more than anything. Going to games and even watching again, you know, so that's one element. And then, you know, there's other utility. It really comes down to crypto will start taking off again when you can use it for some level of utility. Right. You know, when, when iPhones first came out, people didn't think Snapchat.

[B]

Yeah. No way. Exactly.

[A]

You know, they didn't think Instagram.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

But when those came out, you start saying, oh, I can use my phone for a whole lot more than just talk or. Yeah, you know, I can use it for a whole lot more than just taking pictures and making phone calls.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, or going on the Internet. And so that's an example of utility where there was an application that was so compelling people needed that platform to use it. And it was just like streaming. When we started streaming in 1995, if you wanted to listen to the Chicago Cubs and you were in Dallas, the only way you can get those games was by getting a PC, downloading, you know, having a motor all. It was a pain in the ass. Right. But people went through it because if you're a Cubs fan and you're at work, it was the only way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it'll be the same with crypto. So if there's an application that, you know, the only way I can do this application, then that's what it's going to take. And when that happens, you'll see crypto go boom again.

[B]

Wow. Wow. Hopefully sooner than later. Right? Like, no kidding. No. Yeah. From your mouth to God's ears. And then one other thing about. Well, actually, I wanted to ask you this only because I was curious when I was like, doing all this research, how are you able to get into Indiana without finishing high school?

[A]

Because I was taking college. I was taking college classes, so don't.

[B]

You need to have like a college, a high school, you know?

[A]

Yeah. So when I dropped out, I went to the University of Pittsburgh, took classes there, and they let me take those classes and apply it.

[B]

That's how you did it?

[A]

That's how I did. And then when I got to Indiana, I snuck into a graduate level statistics class, got an A in it, and they thought I was in the MBA program when I was 18. But I just kept on taking MBA classes and I was even tutoring people. It was insane.

[B]

Oh, my God, that is so cute. What? You're so sly. What's your favorite book that you. Well, Fountainhead. Right. Okay, that wasn't easy. I shouldn't have said that. Well, I shouldn't extrapolate pretending.

[A]

And that doesn't mean, like, I'm a big iron ran advocate or anything. I just, like.

[B]

I loved Howard Work, though.

[A]

Yeah. That's the whole thing. Right. Howard Work is just a big old you guys. Right.

[B]

I love him.

[A]

Yeah. So that. That's why.

[B]

That's why. Okay, other than other than that, what's, like, your favorite business book? Besides yours?

[A]

Yeah. How to Win a Sport of Business. My Little Plug in there.

[B]

It's, like, 65 pages. Yeah, it's more like a pamphlet than a book.

[A]

Yeah. I want it to be really easy to read and motivating. I don't know, probably always so much.

[B]

So you have.

[A]

Yeah, always. The last book I read, typically, Signal and Noise, which is a book about statistics, was good fun. The Master Algorithm, which is about AI, was good.