Habits and Hustle – Episode 496

Guest: Dr. Michael Breus
Host: Jen Cohen
Theme: The 4-7-8 Breathing Trick That Fixes Middle-of-the-Night Insomnia
Date: October 24, 2025

Episode Overview

In this Fitness Friday edition, Jen Cohen welcomes renowned sleep expert Dr. Michael Breus ("The Sleep Doctor") to tackle the all-too-common issue of waking up in the middle of the night and struggling to get back to sleep. Dr. Breus breaks down the underlying biology behind nocturnal awakenings, shares his most-watched “4-7-8 Breathing” technique, evaluates common (and risky) sleep remedies, and highlights effective, science-backed approaches for managing middle-of-the-night insomnia. The discussion is rich with actionable advice, myth-busting facts, and practical tools, keeping a conversational and approachable tone throughout.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Science Behind Middle-of-the-Night Awakening

• Normalcy of Mid-Night Wakefulness
  • It’s normal for everyone to wake up during the night, typically between 1:00–3:00 AM, due to the body’s circadian rhythm and fluctuations in core body temperature.
    • “Every human on Earth wakes up at some point in time during the night... because of this increase in core body temperature. However, most people don’t even know that they've woken up.” — Dr. Michael Breus [03:13]
• Recognition of Wakefulness Depends on Duration
  • You only realize you’re awake if it lasts 45 seconds or more—otherwise, you roll over and fall back asleep without remembering it.

What NOT To Do When You Wake Up at Night

• Avoid Getting Up to Pee—Unless You Really Need To
  • “In order to enter into a state of unconsciousness, you need a heart rate of 60 or below. What do you think happens to your heart rate when you go from a lying position to a seated position to a standing position and go pee?” — Dr. Michael Breus [04:16]
  • If possible, roll onto your back and count to 20. Sometimes the urge passes if you’re not pressing on your bladder by lying on your side.
• Do NOT Look at the Clock
  • Looking at the time causes anxiety, mental math, and increases heart rate—making it harder to fall back asleep.
    • “In the history of time, no one has ever been able to force themselves to sleep. Because your energy is going in the wrong way.” — Dr. Michael Breus [05:06]
  • Dr. Breus suggests charging your phone in another room so you’re not tempted.

The 4-7-8 Breathing Technique (How-To)

[06:30]

• Why It Works
  • Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil for Navy SEALS to lower heart rate for precision; adapted for insomnia.
  • Counting occupies the mind (quiets "monkey mind"), and the breath lowers heart rate, facilitating the return to sleep.
  • If you can’t do 7-second holds or 8-second exhales, it’s fine to adjust (try 4-5-6).
    • “When I first tried it, I couldn’t do it. So I modified it ... it took me about a month to get my lungs used to this.” — Dr. Michael Breus [06:31]
• How To Practice:
  • Inhale slowly for 4 counts
  • Hold for 7 counts
  • Exhale slowly for 8 counts
  • Repeat for 10–12 cycles; use your fingers to keep track
    • “When I breathe and I do a 4,7,8, I stick out one finger. ... By the time I get to 10 fingers, I know I've done 10 cycles.” — Dr. Michael Breus [07:55]

Managing Anxiety & the "Monkey Mind"

• Mental Distraction Is Key
  • Counting your breaths stops the mind from spinning through worries.
    • “By counting, you are occupying your mind... and you are lowering your heart rate at the same time.” — Dr. Michael Breus [07:17]
• If Sleep Doesn’t Happen, Try Yoga Nidra / NSDR
  • Lying in bed in corpse pose with eyes closed is “about 30% as restorative as sleep”—so you still benefit even if awake.
    • “There’s data to show that it is actually rejuvenative... An hour of that is probably worth 20 minutes of sleep.” — Dr. Michael Breus [10:09]

Acceptance and Perspective

[10:46]

• Trust Your Body
  • Frequent waking happens, but your body adapts and calculates nightly sleep needs. Panicking doesn’t help.
  • Acceptance reduces anxiety:
    • “Trust your body...it kind of scans you throughout the daytime and says...‘We need about this much deep sleep...’ And it changes every single night.” — Dr. Michael Breus [10:47]

Chronic Awakening: What If It Happens Repeatedly?

• Don’t Resort to Alcohol
  • Alcohol destroys deep (stage 3–4) sleep and increases awakenings.
    • “Alcohol destroys stage 3, 4 sleep, which is the physical restoration.” — Dr. Michael Breus [11:59]
• On Cannabis & Gummies: Pros and Cons
  • CBD does NOT help sleep directly, but may help with pain/anxiety.
  • CBN (cannabinol) is the cannabinoid with most evidence for reducing night awakenings; optimal sleep aid ratios: high CBN, some CBD, low THC.
    • “CBD does almost nothing for your sleep. However, CBD is good for pain and it’s good for anxiety...CBN, as in nighttime, that’s what works for sleep.” — Dr. Michael Breus [13:18]
• See a Sleep Specialist for Persistent Middle-of-the-Night Awakenings
  • Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT-I) and sleep restriction (deliberately reducing time in bed to consolidate sleep) are proven clinical approaches.

Sleep Restriction Therapy (CBT-I Principle)

[15:04]

• How It Works
  • Temporarily shrink your time in bed (e.g., sleep 11pm to 5am, no naps). This increases sleep pressure, helping restore consolidated sleep.
    • “You’re going to say, Michael, I already don’t sleep ... My anxiety is going to be through the roof... What I’m doing is I’m naturally building up your sleep deprivation to use to my advantage.” — Dr. Michael Breus [15:10]
• Gradually Expand Time in Bed as Sleep Consolidates

Sleep Medications: Cautions and Dangers

• Sleeping Pills (e.g., Ambien, Xanax)
  • May induce psychological dependence; should be used sparingly.
    • “If you haven’t slept well in 20 years and I give you a pill, you’re going to want that pill again and again and again.” — Dr. Michael Breus [17:06]
• Benadryl/APMs/Diphenhydramine:
  • Regular use is directly linked to higher Alzheimer’s risk—dangerous for nightly use!
    • “There is direct evidence to show that consistent use of Benadryl on the nightly...leads directly to Alzheimer’s.” — Dr. Michael Breus [18:46]

Supplements and Nutrients for Sleep

• Get Tested First!
  • Address deficiencies before adding supplements—especially:
    • Vitamin D
    • Magnesium
    • Iron
      • “If you are deficient in any one of those three, there’s no universe that you’re getting a good night’s sleep.” — Dr. Michael Breus [20:28]
• Magnesium: Huge for sleep, esp. since many are deficient.
  • Dr. Breus conducted a placebo-controlled study: magnesium improves sleep depth and falling asleep. [22:19]
• Valerian Root + Hops: Comparable to sleeping pills for some; calming and sleep-promoting.
• GABA: The “brake pedal” for the brain; helps slow thinking and anxiety.
• Ashwagandha: Good for anxiety reduction.
• Melatonin:
  • Only for jet lag, shift work, REM behavior disorder, elderly or people with diagnosed melatonin deficiency.
    • Not for children (“In Europe at high dosages, melatonin is a contraceptive.”) [24:09]
    • Interacts negatively with SSRIs, blood pressure, and diabetes meds (use with caution).
• Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Benefits general cell health and may help sleep quality, though no direct effect on any sleep stage.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you can avoid it, don’t look at the clock. ... Your energy is going in the wrong way.” – Dr. Michael Breus [05:06]
• “Counting occupies your mind, and when you’re breathing and counting, you’re occupying your mind and you’re lowering your heart rate at the same time. Pretty cool, right?” – Dr. Michael Breus [07:17]
• “There is direct evidence to show that consistent use of Benadryl on the nightly ... leads directly to Alzheimer’s.” – Dr. Michael Breus [19:08]
• “Magnesium was through the roof ... people were sleeping significantly better, deeper sleep was better, and falling asleep was better just from magnesium.” – Dr. Michael Breus [22:19]
• “Melatonin is not for children, period. Full stop. People don’t know this. In Europe at high dosages, melatonin is a contraceptive.” – Dr. Michael Breus [23:59]

Important Timestamps

• [03:13] – Why everyone wakes up in middle of the night; core body temperature explained
• [04:16] – The heart rate “don’t get up to pee” rule
• [05:06] – The anxiety spiral of clock-watching
• [06:30] – Origins and breakdown of 4-7-8 breathing
• [07:17] – How distraction and breath calm the “monkey mind”
• [10:09] – Yoga nidra and “non sleep, deep rest”
• [11:59] – Alcohol and cannabis/gummy use for sleep; what works and what doesn’t
• [15:04] – Cognitive Behavioral Therapy & Sleep Restriction: structuring time in bed
• [18:46] – The hidden dangers of Benadryl / PM sleep aids
• [20:28] – Three nutrients crucial for sleep (D, Mg, Iron)
• [22:19] – Double-blind magnesium sleep study results
• [23:59] – Melatonin warnings: not for kids; unexpected side effects

Closing Summary

This episode delivers a practical, science-based roadmap for anyone struggling with middle-of-the-night awakenings. Dr. Michael Breus demystifies the “why” behind mid-night wakefulness, provides actionable tools (especially the 4-7-8 method), cautions against common traps (medications, alcohol, certain supplements), and champions holistic approaches—acceptance, mindful breathing, and clinical sleep therapy when needed. Listeners walk away empowered with both understanding and real-world solutions for a better night’s rest.