Episode 505: Jefferson Fisher: How to Argue Less and Communicate Better

Summary

Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle – Episode 505

Guest: Jefferson Fisher

Topic: How to Argue Less and Communicate Better
Host: Jennifer Cohen
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Habits and Hustle features Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer turned communication coach and social media sensation (12+ million followers), sharing practical wisdom on how to argue less and communicate better in every area of life. Jefferson and Jen explore why effective communication is vital, mistakes people make, actionable techniques to improve, and how to navigate tough conversations—at work, at home, online, and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Jefferson’s Story & Rise to Communication Coach

• Origins: Jefferson started making simple, practical videos (mostly in his car!) during a career transition, offering tips drawn from the courtroom:

  “Three and a half years ago I started making videos…how to communicate better, how to argue like a lawyer, how to handle people getting defensive… Those videos… started to take off.” — Jefferson (02:46)

• Reluctant Influencer: He doesn’t see himself as an influencer, content creator, or coach, but simply as a “communication guy.”
• Unexpected Growth: “It was like, me showing friends. Can you believe this? Isn’t this weird? And then it slowly started to build from there.” (03:30)

Why Communication Matters

• It's Everything: “Communication touches everything that you do. You can say things by saying things and you can say things by not saying things… Even in the absence of sound, it’s not the absence of communication.” (04:16)
• Perception: “Anything anybody will think about you has to do largely based on what comes out of your mouth.” (04:45)

Biggest Communication Mistake

• Assumption of Understanding:

  “The biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.” (06:33)

  • Most conflict arises when there is a gap between what was said and what was heard.

The Power of Tone and Body Language

• Tone is Regulation: Speaking slower helps others think, feel, and respond more calmly.

  “When I speak slower, you think slower… now you’re matching my energy.” (09:01)

• Body Language Must Match Words:

  “If your body language does not match what’s coming out of your mouth, the other person is going to sense that… I cannot trust this.” (11:19)

Simple, Practical Communication Tips

1. Get Honest Feedback:
   • “Ask your best friend, ‘How would you describe the way I communicate? What would you change if you could?’” (11:55)
2. Slow Down:
   • “Take a three-second pause before you respond to somebody… you’re going to sound like your words were intentional.” (13:03)
3. Ask More (and Better) Questions:
   • Show genuine interest; don’t “one-up”—make it more about the other person.
   • “There has to be a level of genuine interest that nobody can teach.” (16:58)
   • For connection: “What was your favorite part? What did you like about it?” (13:44)

The Difference Between Nice and Kind

• “Nice is surface level… politeness… Kindness is related to the word ‘kin.’ It’s family, it’s connection, it’s much deeper. Kindness says, ‘I care about you enough to tell you something, even though it doesn’t sound nice, even if it’s hard.’” (13:07)

Saying No Without Guilt

• No-Thank-You Formula:

  1. Start with a clear no.
  2. Express gratitude.
  3. Add kindness about their event/opportunity.

  “I can’t make it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Let me know how it goes… You don’t have to over-explain.” (19:57)

• Make Promises to Yourself:

  “I made a promise to myself to… prioritize the family this weekend.” (21:24)

• Don’t Overjustify:

  “Whenever you add on the justification, it makes it look worse… Why not just say no?” (22:43)

Implementing Communication Tips in Real Time

• The #1 struggle: “How do I implement these tips in real time? I can’t remember them in the moment.” (26:39)
• Many people fear difficult conversations or don’t know how to structure them, especially with family they’re estranged from or at work. (27:19)

Framing Difficult Conversations

• Have a Goal:

  “If you don’t have a goal for the conversation, you’re just flying blind… you’ll get off track.” (28:35)

• The Power of Frames: Structure conversations by:
  1. Telling them what you want to talk about.
  2. Stating your shared goal.
  3. Getting their buy-in.

  Example: “Hey, Jen, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday’s meeting. I just want to walk away feeling there’s a new understanding…” (31:18)

• Remove Vague Anxiety: Explicit frames reduce stress:

  “Remove the anxieties of the unknowns from the outset in the frame, the conversations always go better.” (32:55)

Text vs. Voice

• “Texting is incredibly efficient. It’s just not efficient at connection.” (33:55)
• “If you have something important, pick up the phone. They have to hear your voice.” (34:15)
• Never open with “We need to talk.” Instead, specify the topic (“Can we talk about the kids’ schedule for a moment?”). (36:18)

Staying Calm & Handling Triggers

• Pause is Powerful:

  “When your body gets triggered, you have to add time… By using your breath and slowing down, it regulates you physically and the other person.” (39:39)

• Silence signals control: “Pauses are extremely powerful because they give you the element of time.” (39:07)

Dealing With Narcissists & Difficult People

• Praise or Provoke Game:

  “If you’re not showering them with praise, they will then turn to provoke. They delight in your frustration as much as your praise.” (40:16)

• Stay Neutral:

  “You respond very neutral—Good to know. Noted. Thank you for saying that. Interesting. You’re not giving them anything to grab or twist.” (41:36)

• Handling Emotional Immaturity:

  • Ask questions about intent to avoid escalation:

    “Did you mean for that to sound rude? …Most people will back down.” (44:34)

  • With low emotional intelligence: “Lower your standards… keep conversations short and to the point, don’t use words that get them defensive… ask what, how, or when questions to open discussion.” (49:25)

Communicating with Confidence

• Assertive Voice:

  “Eliminate hesitancy—stop overapologizing, skip unnecessary adverbs and fillers like ‘just’ or ‘does that make sense.’ Use confident language.” (52:52)

• Gratitude over Apology:

  “Thank you for your patience” is better than “I’m sorry for the delay.” (53:57)

• Less is More:

  “People who are insecure have the need to say everything. People who are confident have the need to say nothing.” (58:05)

  • “Instead of being a waterfall, be a well… they can come get exactly what they need.” (58:20)
  • Try, “What are your thoughts?” instead of “Does that make sense?” (60:01)

Teaching Kids Better Communication

“I’ll ask them what the other person is thinking… Getting them outside themselves to think how things appear or sound from another’s perspective. Part of being a good communicator is understanding not just your point, but theirs.” (61:01)

Insights on Digital Communication & Virtual Connections

• Virtual loses some nuance (~36% is missing), but meaningful dialogue is still possible.

  “Would I like people in person? Yeah. Would it make me feel better? Yes… But at the end of the day, I’ve seen lots of podcasts do great virtually.” (71:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Communication is everything…even in silence, you’re still communicating.” (04:16)
• “The biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.” (06:33)
• “Slowing down is one of the most effective tools in communication.” (13:03, 15:49)
• “Kindness is deeper than niceness—kindness cares enough to tell you the truth.” (13:07)
• “Be a well, not a waterfall; confidence is about depth, not overflow.” (58:18)
• “If you want to sound confident, use the word confident.” (56:30)
• “If your body language does not match what’s coming out of your mouth, the other person will sense it.” (11:19)
• “Texting is efficient but not at connection. If it’s important, pick up the phone.” (34:15)
• “When your goal is to win the argument, you will lose the relationship.” (68:38)

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• Jefferson’s Background/Origin Story: 02:46–04:11
• Why Communication Matters: 04:11–05:16
• Biggest Communication Mistake: 05:37–07:00
• Tone and Body Language: 07:00–11:19
• Practical Tips (Ask for Feedback, Slow Down): 11:19–13:03
• Difference: Nice vs. Kind: 13:07–15:49
• How to Say No: 19:57–22:43
• Implementation Struggles: 26:39–27:19
• Framing Difficult Conversations: 28:35–33:12
• Power of Silence in Arguments/Pausing: 38:00–39:39
• Dealing with Narcissists: 39:56–42:00
• Handling Emotional Immaturity & Defensiveness: 46:54–49:25, 66:16–68:15
• Communicating with Confidence (language, brevity): 52:52–60:00
• Teaching Kids Communication: 61:01–63:30
• Virtual vs. In-person Communication: 70:22–71:51

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Final Takeaways

• Effective communication is both an art and a learned practice—slowing down, asking good questions, and structuring tough conversations are key.
• Confidence in communication means brevity, assertiveness, and matching your body language to your message.
• Connection outweighs winning; emotional intelligence, genuine interest, and clarity build meaningful relationships.
• Teach the next generation to step into others’ shoes, not just to express themselves.

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For more on Jefferson Fisher, check out his book and social media. To hear the full conversation, listen to Habits and Hustle, Episode 505.

Transcript

[A]

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

[B]

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[A]

You tell me. I, I don't really know at this point. Yeah, I. And most of the time during the day I'm just called dad. And now with the, the law firm and this whole social media stuff, I don't like influencer, you know, the content creator. That doesn't really fit kind of what I, I do. But yeah, just communication guy. That works.

[B]

You know it's funny. Did you ever think for those people who are living under a rock, I mean Jefferson, you have, you have like what, like 10 million followers now? Like 12 million followers. Something insane.

[A]

Something like that. It's a, it's a, it's a silly number.

[B]

Well, how did it even. Like what like you started doing these random videos car. Right. Like on the way to work. Like kind of give a little bit of a brief overview if. Of who and how this, this whole kind of thing started to become such a massive, massive, I guess empire for you so far in the communication space.

[A]

About close to. I think we're at three years now. Three years ago I started making videos. This was halfway through 21 maybe. So this is. Yes. Yeah. Three and a half of making a video in my car with my phone on how to communicate better, how to argue like a lawyer, how to handle people getting defensive, how to have difficult conversations. What do you do when somebody interrupts you? What do you. How do you deal with narcissists and toxic personalities? And so I started giving my tips and advice of what I've learned in the courtroom and throughout all of my life, specifically with handling and preparing clients for cross examination and how I cross examine people. And those videos, something I never ever expected, Jennifer, ever, was that they started to take off. And this was never a thing that this was a goal of mine or this was like, oh, yes, this is if I only had this many more followers. No, it was like me showing friends. I'm like, can you believe this? Isn't this weird? And then it just slowly started to build from there. So almost all of my videos are just me in my car. And why were they in my car? Well, because I didn't have an office at the time. I was in between leaving a big law firm and going off and doing my own thing. And so it was right in the middle of that transition.

[B]

Can you tell us why it's so important to be a good communicator?

[A]

Communication touches everything that you do. You can say things by saying things and you can say things by not saying things. You can communicate a lot in silence. If I don't hear from you in five minutes, that's something. If I don't hear from you in five years, that communicates something else. Even in the absence of sound, it's not the absence of communication. So why does that matter? It touches everything. Anything that anybody will think about you has to do largely based on what comes out of your mouth. If you say something nice, congrats, you're a nice person. You say something rude, all of a sudden, you're not that nice of a person. They are the people that you like and you don't like most of the time, has to do with what they actually said. What I like to say is you can be a kind person if you don't use kind words. So it matters. Because anything that you want, from wherever you've been to wherever you're going, communication is the central key of that.

[B]

You know, you've said something. I think I've seen this. Was this in your book or somewhere else? You know, I've seen your read your book, I've seen your videos. That the person you see isn't the person you're actually talking to, which is so true. Right. So how. What are most people getting wrong when they're. When they're speaking, when they're having conversations, like, what's the mission?

[A]

Usually that you see that what they said was what was heard.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's as simple as that. So many times I've said something, and later on I'm in the conversation with my wife and she will kind of repeat what I said, and I go, I didn't say that. That's exactly what you said you said. And everybody can relate to that.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

Both ways. Yeah. Yeah. Or you're in a conversation with a friend and you kind of regurgitate what they said and they go, that's. That's not what I said. That's not how I sounded. Yeah, it is. I here. Anybody who's heard this before, I wish I had this recorded. I wish I had it recorded so you could see what you look like. You know, that kind of thing.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

We always have a sense of, like, when you talk, you actually don't really know how your voice sounds. You just know what it sounds like in your head. You ever watch the video and be like, is that. Is that how I sound all the time? How I look? Yeah. And yeah, you and I both, for sure. And it's because we are very poor at judging and being subjective of our own material. And so it's the biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.

[B]

You know, though, I think even speaking to you, right, tone is very important because, you know, when I speak with you. Take this in the nicest possible way, because I mean it, your tone is very calm. And is it that you've worked on this because you've learned the techniques that make like that to how to communicate more effectively to. To come across a certain way. Are there particular techniques such as tone, such as body language, to convey a different message when you're speaking, to get your point across more effectively, to kind of show a different type of personality? Right?

[A]

Yeah. I would say that a good part of this is learned and a good part of this is my personality. Let's say 30% of this is my own disposition, the nature versus nurture, and the other 70% is learned both through my childhood and also what I've seen in courtrooms and some of the most intense trials is you have to find a place that is going to help slow you down when you think of music. For example, if you're wanting to study and you're wanting to focus. What kind of music do you put on? Do you put on the screamo? Do you put on the really high energy pop? Or do you save that for when you work out, when you want to be energized and move fast paced? If you're studying and you're wanting to focus, more than likely you're wanting something that is going to be easy on the ears, that you're going to want to listen to, that's going to help you focus, to help you clarify and to narrow your concentration. And so whenever you have a tone of really, really fast paced, super high pitch and these people that kind of make you anxious, as soon as you're hearing and talking to them, it. Just hearing my voice do that right now makes you feel a certain way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what's. I don't know what's happening. I don't know if I like this. And so its tone has a lot to do with regulating another person's emotions. Because when I speak slower, you think slower. When I speak slower, you feel slower. Every. Everything is. You're. Now you're matching my energy. And now we're talking at a pace that we're going to both feel comfortable. It's like walking into your grandmother's home. Like, you feel like you can just sit and you're safe in the conversation rather than always wondering what's happening? Where can I sit?

[B]

How much of it's body language? Because I feel like the body language, the tone, you can get away with a lot more difficult things to say if you are saying it in a, In a, In a specific tone or your body language is saying something. Like all these more subliminal things that aren't about the words.

[A]

Yeah. You know, how much percentage? Who knows? I know there are tests on them. I don't really know if they're, you know, correct. I don't have any reason why they wouldn't be.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

You just say like the word okay, all right. I can say okay, or I can go okay.

[B]

Yeah, or, or.

[A]

Or I can go okay. Like it is. It's always. Or you put it in a text. Right. It's like, okay. What. What kind of okay is that? Because we never read it in a positive okay. It's. We read it as a okay, all right, whatever. Like, we put our own negative connotation on it. And what could that also mean with body language? So I can say okay, or I can cross my arms and go okay, as in, like, go for it. You Get. You think you're so big and bad. All right, you go for it. I've now crossed my arms. I put myself in a position of disbelief. I'm now doubting, I'm now defending. I'm now protecting myself. Body language has a lot to do with it. It's this. This is the takeaway. If your body language does not match what's coming out of your mouth, the other person is going to sense that and their signals are going to go, this is not matching. This is not jiving. This is not connecting. I cannot trust this. That's what happens.

[B]

Like, what are some simple techniques that people could easily change what they're doing to be a better communicator? Watching their. Is it. Watching their tone? Is there a way that they can. Because like you said, I think what you said was so accurate, right. I think I sound a certain way, right? And then we look back and like, oh, my God, I can't believe I sounded like that. Or I can't believe I said it that way. Like, how do we teach people who are listening how they can be a better communicator in simple ways?

[A]

Well, the most practical way, if you want to know how do I communicate? Ask your best friend. Ask your best friend, say what? How would you describe the way I communicate? And what would you, if you had a magic wand, wish that I would do differently? And your best friend will most likely tell you. Now, what are some other practical tips that you can.

[B]

That's a good one, though. Ask someone. Hopefully they'll be honest with you.

[A]

Yeah, ask somebody that you trust. What does my communication say about me? I'm really working on my communication and how I talk, and you're somebody that I trust. How would you. If you could describe in three words my communication style, like, how does it come across to you in ways that I'm not understanding? As soon as you admit that you have blind spots in your life, particularly when it comes to communication, you're going to get that kind of feedback. So what you're asking for is what you'll attract. And that's the same way with how you talk. If how you talk is also what you will attract. People that are nice and kind, they don't attract people who are ugly and rude.

[B]

Well, that's true.

[A]

It's not the way it works.

[B]

But there's a difference, right, between nice and kind.

[A]

Very much so. Very much so. And for example, you know, I just made a thing. I just had an episode or a video about this because it. It hit me One day of like, you know, there is a very big difference about it. Nice is surface level. Nice is politeness. Nice is. I just want it to look nice. Oh, you. I'm complimenting on the surface of what you have. And I don't want to say something mean because that's not nice. Kindness is related to the word kin. It's family, it's connection. It's much deeper. Kindness says, I care about you enough to tell you something, even though it doesn't sound nice, even. Even if it's hard, even if I disagree. People who don't want to rock the boat. Oh, I just want to be, you know what? Sure, I'll definitely pick that up. Yeah, why not? If they just want to be the people pleasers, you can absolutely have your own boundaries and say no and still be kind. So that's the difference. Of those I want to make sure I hit the takeaways on what are some other practical tools that people can use, aside from asking a friend would be as often as they can slow down their words. I know that's easier said than done, but even if you were to take a three second pause before you respond to somebody, I don't care who it is, take a three second pause. You're going to naturally sound like your words were intentional. And when you do that, people will naturally lean into it. They want to hear what you're saying. It's like it makes them curious. No, no. What's. What's Jennifer gonna say? I don't. I'm leaning. She's definitely thinking about it. I can tell. She's acknowledging what I've said. She's analyzing it. So now what she's saying, she's choosing her words. So I want to, I want to hear them. What's another good one? Is simply asking an additional question. Whenever. Let's say you and I are our best friends and you just tell me about your weekend. And you said, I said, how was your weekend? You said, oh, it was great. We just went to this park. And I said, oh, that's not my favorite park. Really. Where I like is. I like to go. And I start talking about this place in Cabo. I've never been, but let's say it's some like fancy smancy place and I start trying to inadvertently one up you. All right, in that conversation, what are you going to want to do? You're going like, okay, well then what's the point of me sharing with you? Okay, great. You just stepped on my, my story rather than you, you missed that opportunity to connect, what do you do? Ask another question. Say, what was your favorite part? What did you like about it? What's. Make it more about the other person?

[B]

So that's a good point. So the first thing you said, and I think this one, you do this very well. You slow down. The. You slow down when you speak to somebody. Because I notice with you, you speak slow. So then even subconsciously, I do see myself coming. I'm like, leaning more forward, and my voice. I'm speaking slower, if you can believe it, because you're speaking slower. So the slowing down makes you way more of an effective communicator. And then the second thing you said was ask more questions. Now, a lot of people, this is like the curiosity part. Like, for people who are curious, like me or like you, it's easy for people. Some people don't have that natural inclination. And also to not sound phony or not to. Not to sound like they're. It's like they're phoning it in, right? Like, how do you. Like, how can somebody ask more questions that actually connect people versus just sounding kind of like they're. They're like doing something because they're trying to connect. Does that make sense?

[A]

It makes sense. There has to be a level of genuine interest that nobody can teach. There's not a magic phrase that either one of us can tell somebody to have an actual genuine interest in someone. Like, if you've ever been on a date and the person across from you really isn't asking that many questions, they just like to talk about themselves. It becomes very apparent. You know, I've had the question where somebody says, how can I have them, you know, ask more questions about me? And I said, you go to the next person, you don't stay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If that's the first. First thing out of the gate is they're not genuinely interested in me, then you say, thank you. Nice knowing you, and you go live your life. Because there has to be a genuine level of true interest. That's if that. If that connection isn't authentic, like if we're dating and I want to know something about somebody, you don't have to ask me to ask questions. I'm already doing it. When you find something you're excited about and you want to learn, maybe it's a new topic, a new hobby. You're asking questions about it. Why? Because you have a genuine interest in it. My kids, my wife, my family, I am asking questions about their day because I am genuinely interested in it. So when you find that you have that sense of authenticity in your life. There's no magic. Questions of being magic, being that somebody's gonna naturally go, wow. All of a sudden, they're very interested in me. They have to really want it.

[B]

I do. I agree. I do think, though, there are people who are just naturally better conversationalists, right? They're able to keep the dialogue, you ask questions that are. That keep the conversation moving at a pace where it doesn't feel like you're just like. Just kind of like giving them like just shotgun. Question, question, question. And I mean, when. When you're in business especially, it's so important for that connection, you know, to have that connection with somebody if you're in sales, right? And so for me, anyway, people always ask, like, what are some techniques? Because the more you're connected to someone, obviously, the better the relation to build a relationship, right? So that's why I'm asking. That's why I was asking you the question about that. Because it's a question that I'm always getting, like, I don't know. Let me ask. Let me ask Jefferson. He's coming on, and he does this all the time, so. But you said something also about saying no, right? Because I think a lot of people, pleasers struggle with this and people who just feel uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable when someone asks me to do something and I don't want to do it, but I. I feel bad saying no. So I try to, like, figure out how to get out of it. What are some good strategies of how we can get. How we can say no in a better way or not feel uncomfortable or badly.

[A]

So I have a method of specifically, let's say, turning down something that you're nervous about. Somebody invited you somewhere and you're like, I don't really want to go, but I'm going to feel bad and I don't want to upset this person. What we typically do is we say, no, thank you, or we say, oh, I love to. This sounds so wonderful. Thank you so much, but I can't. Right? And then it's usually because. Because I just got so many things and I'm just so stressed, and I just have, you know, I need to go walk my plant and water the dog and all this stuff that you're just. Just trying to make up to make it. Make it feel justified, right? You want to. You want to make the feel, the no feel worth it, right to you subjectively. And what I recommend is a system where it puts the no right up front rather than the I'D love to, but I can't. Get rid of the but and reverse it. I can't make it, period. Thank you so much for inviting me. So you start with the no and then next goes into the gratitude. I appreciate you thinking of me. Sounds like a wonderful time. And three, add in the kindness. Let me know how it goes. I know it's going to be a wonderful event. You can't wait to hear about this in the future. It's short, concise, and you don't feel like you're left hanging having to over explain the no. So that's. That would be my much better method of saying no to events and invitations. Now, how do you say no to the typical stuff if you don't feel comfortable saying no, thank you. That's not for me. What I like to do is say, I made a promise to myself. I made a promise to myself to stay, stay on task. Today I made a promise to myself that I'm going to be home this weekend. Whenever you make promises to yourself, people go, oh, well, they're already committed. Like, they, they don't want to try to encourage you to break that. And also it helps keep you on task, especially if it's something that's a priority to you. I made a promise to myself to prioritize the family this weekend.

[B]

You know, it's so funny because you get people are, I'm going to talk for myself. But I know a lot of people are probably in the same boat where you just kind of fumble around making a million excuses or trying to think of an excuse because you feel so guilty or bad that it actually comes off worse than if you just said, I can't. Right. Like eliminating the excuse from your answer is what you're saying.

[A]

Absolutely, yes. Whenever you add on the because or you add on the justification, it makes it look worse because you know what it feels like when somebody starts going, oh, my gosh, I would so love to make this. I just have so much going on, I'm so busy. And they start giving you a list and what you want to respond is, you know, you can just say no, Right? Why make it awkward with all this inauthenticity? Now I don't really like you because now I can tell you, just sugarcoating. So it's like, you know what? Why not just say no? You could just say no so it's almost counted against you when you're actually trying to feel their feelings for them.

[B]

Right. You know, I'm all about finding an edge. The small daily habits that give you more energy, focus and resilience. But that's why I am hooked on monovitality. Most people are mineral deficient and that means low energy, brain fog, slow recovery and dull skin. But mana flips the switch by giving your body a complete spectrum of minerals it actually knows how to use. We're talking shilajit from the Himalayas, Ormus from the Dead Sea and marine plasma from the ocean. Plus amino acids and 88 other trace minerals. The benefits are real. We're talking steady all day energy, sharper focus, faster recovery, a stronger immunity plus glowing skin. But the biggest win. It fuels your cells for real longevity. Think of it as like a cellular switch on formula. Not as a stimulant, but the raw power your body needs to create energy and repair itself. Try it now and I bet you'll be hooked too. Go to manavitality.com and use code Jennifer20 for a discount. That's manavitality.com m a n n a vitality.com and use code Jennifer20. Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentous 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine and omega 3 combo for months now and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone. The Korea pure creatine boosts both physical and your mental performance. The grass fed whey tastes great with no weird aftertaste. And their Omega 3 is a must for recovery. Since adding these my energy, my recovery and my overall well being has really improved. So if you want better performance, this is the way to go. Visit livemomentous.com and use my code Jen for 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com code Jen for 35% off your 1st subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did. You know what I'm wondering with you as you're talking because you have so many videos and so much good, good information of how to become much more effective as a communicator. How to have difficult conversations which I want, I want to ask you about. But as you were saying that I was curious like what is the one area because now you have such a, such a mass audience that you see people struggle with the most. Like when you get comments or when you get people, when you, when you post a video, what is the one, the one thing that you've seen a major through line that people are really struggling with.

[A]

They say I love these tips. How Do I implement these in real time? They say, yeah. They say, if I. How can I remember these? How can I remember these? That's. That's their. If I can only remember these in the moment, that's probably the. The number one. You know, outside of that, how do you implement these kind of techniques and tips? I hear the most about people who are struggling to find their voice in communication. They don't. They don't know what to say. They don't know how to structure it. They don't know how to. They know they have a conversation coming up and it's eating them alive. That's the kind of stuff I hear.

[B]

Kind of like, with speaking stuff, like when they have a speaking engage. Like, because he knows the fear of speaking in. In public is like, one of the biggest. It's worse than death. Right? So, like, is that the type of thing you're speaking about or just in general, with people not being able to stand up for themselves and kind of get their message across in a way that's effective in general or being bullied?

[A]

Definitely, yeah, it's definitely the latter. People who haven't spoken to their sister in two years, and they want to talk to them, and they don't know how. Somebody who hasn't spoken to their dad, you know, for most of their life, and now they're at a place where they want to connect. How do they talk? They're at a place where they don't feel honored and respected, where they work. How do they have that conversation? How do they stand up for themselves when they feel like there was somebody who's always belittling them or putting them down? It's that kind of stuff. That's. That's. That's the heart of it.

[B]

So let's talk about a couple of those things, right? So let's talk about having. In general, how do. What's the best way to have a difficult conversation? Because I do believe that that's something that we all struggle with in general.

[A]

When it comes to difficult conversations, you have to know where you're going. If you don't have a goal for the conversation, you're just flying blind. You'll run in circles. You'll get. You'll get to the point where y' all are talking and you go, how did we get on this? What? We've. We've gotten off track. Okay, back to my point. And they. And you realize you've just. You've wasted 30 minutes, an hour talking about something that's. That's not at all relevant. So having a goal is huge. I teach what I talk about. My book is the power of frames. Using framing for difficult conversation. That is something that is a lifelong skill. Because when you can craft conversations and structure them in a way that is going to lower anxiety, keep you both regulated, keep you on task, and keep your sights set on the goal instead of down in the weeds, then what you find is that you end up having better relationships with these people. And better relationships will ultimately lead to a better life.

[B]

So give me a conversation. Give me. What does it mean to have these frames? Can you give us an example of what a conversational frame would look like?

[A]

Absolutely. Let's say you and I are at work, and let's say I'm your superior and you need to. I need to address something that is sensitive. Maybe you didn't do that great on some kind of project or there was some issues about it. Where most people get wrong is they'll lead with, hey, Jennifer's good. Yeah, good to see you. You good? Everybody good? Hey, so listen. And then it just starts going downhill from there. And then you're just left going, what's. What's going on? What do you. What do you mean? Am I fired? Am I not fired? Are you mad? Who's mad? Like, it's nothing but red lights and red flags from then on out. A better method is using a frame. So what you do is, number one, you begin the conversation by telling them what you want to talk about. Two, you then go into the goal, you tell them what you want to walk away with in the conversation. Why are you there? And then three, you get their buy in into the frame. Like a frame. It's like a picture frame that paintings and pictures look different depending on the frame. It's the same. Same exact thing. So you and I could talk about an element or an issue, but how I frame it can make it look entirely different. So it's using that. That power.

[B]

So give me an example. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I might say, hey, Jen, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. And I just want to walk away feeling that there's a new understanding that we can't talk about this topic anymore. Does that sound all right? Now you know exactly where I'm going and what it's about. Or let's say we're at home and I say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about the kids schedules for next Friday. And I just want to walk away with feeling we're on the same page. Is that cool? Like, I'm. I'm. Instead of me sending you a text saying, hey, can we talk? Or a text that says, we need to talk, or, hey, can you visit? Or the person who knocks on the door and says, hey, do you have five minutes? Like, these vague, mean nothing type of open the door to limitless time of going, I don't know what you want to talk about. I might have five minutes. Is it for a joke? Are you trying to change my whole world about something? Are you trying to bring up something that's absolutely irrelevant and going to be a waste of time? Because it's a scenario that's never going to happen? So it's. Using frames is an incredible tool. So especially when it comes to sensitive conversations. For example, let's say you and I are in a bad place and you and I haven't spoken in a while, I'd say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about something that's important to me, that's been weighing on my heart, and I want to walk away with us knowing that we're still friends and we still love each other and we're going to be in each other's lives for a long time. Is that okay? Like, you're going to. Now they know already. We're still going to be good. Like, already know we can talk. And now we have a safe place within this frame to talk about the hard things and ultimately know what's the takeaway. We're still going to be in each other's lives. So whenever you remove the anxieties of the unknowns from the outset in the frame, the conversations always go better.

[B]

That's a great point. So basically removing the. Because you're right, that vagueness is what keeps people in that, like, loop of anxiety. So when. So what do we do when we're on text messages? Like, you know, so we don't say, can we. Can we talk? What would be an alternative? You don't want to write everything in a text. So would you just say not to text and just pick up a phone? Like, because now everything is so digital, right? People are, like, relying so heavily on the phone and people. People aren't even having conversations, let alone, you know, good ones or bad ones. Right. It's all through texting. How do we kind of. What do we do about that? Because it's also not teaching people the proper skills or the practice to get better. Right.

[A]

Texting is incredibly efficient. It's just not efficient at connection. If you have something important to talk to somebody, pick up the phone, you. They have to hear your voice. It's that same problem we talked about. If you just text it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus me on the phone saying okay. Like, there is such a difference. We, us, every one of us, we have a negative filter that we apply to just about everything. When it comes to anything that's not our own brains, we assume somebody else's negative intent. We assume that somebody is driving slow because they want it to be in our way. We assume somebody's not getting there because they're lazy. Like, we assume the negatives that we also don't apply to ourselves. And so we always have good reasons. Nobody else does. And when it comes to conversation, using text in that way for something important is a safe way to make sure you ruin it. You're gonna. You're. I mean, if you've ever been in an argument over text, it's a nightmare. You text for. You text for paragraphs and paragraphs, and all you do is just. You read the worst way they could possibly, you know, say it, even though they're not. And what happens is somebody will pick out just one line in the paragraph you sent and twist it and ignore everything else you sent. Like, it's. It's a. It's a horrible, messy, messy, messy, messy way of addressing something that's important. Pick up the phone. They need to hear your voice.

[B]

Yeah. Even though, with the. Because you said that. Can we talk? Because that's such a typical one. Right. Because even if you pick up the phone, people would normally text, can we talk? To have that conversation on the phone. Right. So would you. Yes, it's like. And that even is like the kiss of death. Right. Because that. So would you suggest even in a text saying, can we talk? Because I want to make sure and give your. Eliminate the vagueness. Put it, Put the. Your frame in the text already to have the conversation. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it does. Yeah. You can certainly do that in a text. The biggest. I mean, the. What I would consider the nail in the coffin is when you say we need to talk. Something like that. That's the.

[B]

That's the worst.

[A]

That's the worst. That's the worst. But when you say, but if I begin with, can we. And I like, can we. Can we talk about the kids? Schedule for a moment in text? Like, and then. And then lead that to a call. Hey, can we. Hey, I'd love to catch up with you in five minutes. Or whenever you have a window. I like using window because it's, you know, you. You Just assume they already. You just have these little gaps in the day. But there's nothing wrong with texting to lead up to the phone call. But I mean, you do you, do you need to give a whole bunch of detail. No, they're also. If in text, it's like, to me, I'd much rather leave a voice note or I would just rather call them and find out, rather than spark that anxiety of, can we talk? And they're like, yeah, what? Because the first thing they're going to think of is, what about. Right. So if you leave it super vague like that, instead of saying, hey, can we, can we talk about something that's important? Can you talk about something that's been on my mind? Can we talk about the schedule, the, the conference, the proposal, whatever it is.

[B]

Whatever it is. Okay. I want to, I want to kind of stay on this difficult conversation because I've got so many questions about this. Because when you're on the phone, how do you, you know when you're having a difficult conversation? How, how does someone. How do you stay calm if someone's triggering you and you're. They're saying something that's, you know, that's. That they're gaslighting you. What's a good method? Like, how do you combat. When you have different. If you have such a different communication style, like, how do you deal with somebody who is triggering you in some way? And how do you stay calm speaking to them to be effective?

[A]

See what I'm doing?

[B]

Yes. It's making me very uncomfortable. Yeah.

[A]

So I did that to kind of illustrate the answer of when I add in silence. What happens is two things. One is I am reminding of the person, I'm reminding the other person. I am in control of what happens next. I'm in control of the conversation from here. And. Or two, what happens is you or the other person will start to fill in this silence. And where do we go? That just means we're going to reset. And when you're done talking again, I'll add that another five seconds of silence. Pauses are extremely powerful because they give you the element of time. What do you do when your body gets triggered? You have to add time. Time is the only way that you're going to be able to regulate yourself. Time is a sifter of things that are important versus not important. Time has a way of filtering that out. Finding out, did that really matter or was that just. I don't even remember what that was. I remember we had an argument three weeks ago. I don't remember what we talked about. But at the moment, it's really important. Time slows you down. So when you're triggered, what I teach is you have to let your breath be the first word that you say. By using your breath and slowing it down, it's naturally going to regulate me physically, like physiologically going to regulate me. And at the same time it's going to regulate you.

[B]

So pausing. How would you communicate with a narcissist? And then I can kind of go further.

[A]

I love how you lay. Well, that's the easy question.

[B]

Yeah, that's the easy question. Well, it's the most. It's like an umbrella. And then we can kind of go deeper into to it.

[A]

Well, with narcissists and mind you, that term has gotten so broad. That's right, Extremely broad. It's. That title has now been given to anybody we really don't like or even care for. You know, I've never heard of an ex spouse who wasn't one.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it's. And whoever the narcissist is, it's them, it's not me. And so that's kind of the baseline of that. Every one of us has what you'd consider as narcissistic traits or behaviors or tendencies in some given scenario. So how do you deal with it? Somebody's behaving badly in that way is you understand the game that you're in. It's a game I call praise or provoke. Meaning if you are not shower that showering them with praise, they will then turn to provoke. They'll create an argument out of nothing because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They. It is a control tactic. It is the, you know, the. The mom that always has to make it about herself and create an argument. No, I'm the victim and nobody likes me and nobody's here and nobody listens. And you feel like, I just cannot get out of this. You have to understand you're in a game. That game you just don't play. You don't respond. You respond with silence. Or if you do, you respond very neutral. You're going to say things like, good to know. Noted. Thank you for saying that. Interesting. Like you just these one word neutral sound bites because you're not giving them anything to grab and to twist off on. You're not giving them anything to create. And whenever you very neutral, short, choppy words, it's going to be a whole lot better to realize for them. It's not that fun. The game is not Fun for them. They're not getting what they want. And that's how you. That's. That's the umbrella.

[B]

That's the umbrella. It's funny you say that, because the word nar, I do believe that that word is so overused. Right. But everything always gets thrown into that bucket of narcissism. I was more interested also in this, about people who are emotionally immature or who are lying about you. Right. When they're like. Or they're someone who's betrayed you. How do you deal with that type of communication to get your point across without sounding like you're dealing? Because a lot of times when you're having these conversations, you're talking from your emotions and everything gets kind of. You're not. You're not. It's not landing well. Right. Do you have any suggestions?

[A]

Well, that question covers a lot.

[B]

I know. It's about five questions in one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Five different topics. What. What comes up is. What I teach is whenever you're in those situations, and it could be any one of the things that you've listed, the laundry list of people saying rude stuff, belittling things, or whatever it is, is to use questions in a way that go to their intent, and that way you never really respond. Instead, you're still questioning what they said. So let's say you and I are in a conversation. You say something that is rude to me. I take it as rude, I might say, instead of me picking it up and responding and going, me, what about you? And getting all up in that and mad and defensive and making it worse. Because now you've just justified them, making it even more of a big deal. But if I were to take a big pause after the rude thing you just said, and I were to ask, did you mean for that to sound rude? Now you're left with a question. Now that goes directly to your intent of why you said it. You have a choice. You're going to either say, yes, yes, I meant it to sound rude. Most people are never that bold. Some people are. Most people are not. They don't like to show they're ugly. They don't. They don't. They don't like the. The bad, the messy out there. Most of the time, what they'll say is, well, I mean, it's, you know, crawfish. And they'll. Meaning they'll take it back. They kind of tweak it. They. They back down. They're realizing they got caught because the spotlight goes directly on them. Whenever you ask that kind of question, if I were to say, did you mean for that to offend me? Did you want that. Did you say that to embarrass me? I mean, it just. It calls them to task immediately.

[B]

So if someone. By the way, I don't know how. I mean, I feel bad for your wife and kids. Like, I don't even know how they can do. Did they ever win any argument or. I guess the point.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you. I mean, like, what happens? Do you just have zero fighting in your house at all times?

[A]

Oh, no, we have plenty of arguments. Yeah, I'm human. Or human. It's. It's. What I'll say is. I mean, in my marriage, our arguments are pretty quick. I mean, we kind of. We followed this. This mindset of be quick to apologize, the faster you get to the apology and finding out the miscommunication, what got lost. And as soon as you can get quicker to the intent, and instead of beating somebody down with it, like you. Let's say you and I are in a conversation, and I say, did you mean for that to sound rude? And you go, oh, no, no, no, That's. That's not at all what I meant. What I. What I meant was. And you kind of start to explain that's talking to intent. And I go, oh, okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Okay. And we can continue on or resolve it, but if I were to continue to beat you over the head with it and go, you know, I just. I cannot believe you would say it that way. Like, I just. I don't understand how you think it's okay. And you're like, I've already apologized. I've already done what I can, and I'm the one that's. I just can't put down the hammer. That kind of stuff can be exhausting. It can be emotionally draining. And really, it's a sign by that person that they don't have the emotional intelligence to be able to process and work through their own emotion. Means me. It typically means there's something deeper. I like to say, if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it. That's.

[B]

So that was the word I was trying to. I was looking for before, like, how to deal with somebody who doesn't have the emotional intelligence to have a conversation that. That is meant to be effective. Right? That was the word. It's not even so much the narcissism or the emotional immaturity. It's the inability to have the emotional intelligence to get to the End of the conversation without feeling. But it was meaningful. Right. So how do you deal with someone like that? The same way asking questions or pausing.

[A]

I'm putting it in context, I think. Let me rephrase. When somebody doesn't have emotional intelligence, you are walking with crutches in the conversation. You're not, you're not both jogging at the same time. It's like, it's like playing against a team that all has a basketball game where they all have. The other team has casts on their leg like it's. You're you. You can't effectively do what is intended. And some of that is simply awareness and the very cold, hard truth of I'm not going to be able to reach this person. But can you hear how having that knowledge is also incredibly freeing in some way where I know I've said my peace. And if that is not enough for them, then I wish them well because I, I am going to refuse to continue to make this my priority. My, my grandfather would tell me, look, Jefferson, I can only tell you I can't understand it for you. So it's this. I have said it and I've been here. And if that's not going to be enough and they don't have the emotional intelligence, then you have to have the awareness that you're going to be stunted in the conversation of where it's going to go. And that's just the fact of it. But knowing that ahead of time is very useful information. So it doesn't waste your time and emotion and your energy. There's nothing you can do to make somebody have more emotional intelligence. What you can do is if you need to give them more awareness of what's happening.

[B]

Okay, but let's say in a bit like, that's okay when you're talking about a personal, personal relationships, but a lot of times and people who are listening, who are entrepreneurs and business people, you don't have a choice. You have to deal with these people. Right. So a lot of times people become very defensive or like, it's hard to get to be an effective communicator or have a conversation when someone is not. Who lack the emotional intelligence. So what would be a tactic that you can use besides walking away? You can't walk sometimes. You can't walk away. Right. And I know you've said in the past, the goal isn't to win the conversation because that just that can actually make it even. That's not the right thing either. Right. Because then that will actually sometimes disrupt the relationship later on.

[A]

Yeah, you don't want to set your sights on winning the argument. Certainly not. And it's, you know, that that question covers a lot of scenarios. I think there is, there is a place to say, you know, you just need to put up your boundaries. Right. But I feel like that's kind of a cop out answer. There are certainly boundaries are part of that. If, practically speaking, if you're in a conversation or you need it, let's say you're at work and you need to have something with somebody who's not emotionally intelligent or really has the emotional capacity to have some of these deeper conversations. It, it would tie to one, have the awareness first that this is not somebody you're going to be able to make a touchdown with. They're, they're not going to be able to go that far in the conversation. So two, lower your standards of where you want to go in the conversations and probably lower your standards all around when it comes to how you're going to interact with this person. Don't be surprised. Don't get yourself disappointed that they're not doing something different. I mean, you can't, you can't change the tiger's stripes. Three, keep the conversations really short, short to the point, get in, get out. Don't feel like you have to lay all this huge breadcrumbs and do all this work in the conversation just for them to totally ignore it. I mean, you can't, you know, you can't lead whatever animal to water. There, there is, there is so much to those kind of conversations of realizing I'm not going to pour my energy to it. I'm going to keep it short and sweet. I am not going to use words like you to get them defensive. I'm not going to ask why that's going to get them defensive. I'm going to ask questions that might enlighten me into their thinking. Those are the questions that open up discussion, like how or when or what. Whenever I can open up discussion. Maybe that's going to give me a little bit more insight into the areas where there's static between us rather than a clear line of communication.

[B]

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[A]

It's a language that is typically learned. And that's the language of your assertive voice. Using a voice that's different than normal conversation. Like if you and I are talking and we're talking about the weekend and we're friendly and we're friends, that's different. But if I need to have an important conversation and maybe it's at work, typically at work, then I'm going to use words that sound more confident. And those are words that are assertive words like not having over apologies and saying I'm sorry to everything, using adverbs. The words that end in ly, using language that doesn't, you know, end with. Does that make sense on every single sentence? Any of that kind of stuff is. And we can talk about each one of those. But that's, that's what I mean by assertive voice. You, you are eliminating hesitancy in conversation and instead you are building in words that produce positive momentum in the conversation where people will go. That person knows what they want, where they're going and what they're talking about.

[B]

So give me an example.

[A]

If you've ever responded to an email that says, hey, I'm so sorry, I'm just now getting back to this. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I just now see this. So sorry for the delay. You're apologizing for prioritizing your own life. You're apologizing for having priorities. Like you have other emails to get to. You have life, you have kids. Instead of using apologies, use words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience. I appreciate the time to reply. Thank you for giving me time to think about this. And when you say thank you for your patience, the other person will read it and go, I am so patient. Oh my gosh, I am so patient. Yes, I am so kind. What you're doing is you're taking away the hesitancy which makes you feel less. Because when they read the I'm so sorry, what they think is, yeah, you should be sorry.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. And so you take that away and use words of gratitude. And now you're leaning into the communication. Same thing for adverbs. These are to me the biggest culprit of confident communication. It's the words like essentially. Basically. Literally, really very much so. Just all of these words that don't really mean anything. Like let's say you need to, you want to propose an idea and you might say, okay, so basically what I'm like, so just so you know what I may be thinking of in its. It's really, really up to you guys. But, but I literally just thought the other day and you're going, you haven't said anything yet because you've just thrown in a bunch of, of of fluff. So when you remove those words, especially in emails or texts, you just find you don't need them. Like even the word just can be very much overused. Just is very hesitant. Hey, I just wanted to. Just want to say hi instead of Hey, I wanted to say hi. Like it. That kind of. I'm leaning in. Just by using the word just, I made it sound more hesitant. Attend. Does that make sense? Is one that I like to talk about. Because when people use does that make sense? I know why they use it. It's to want to make sure that what they said makes logical, practical sense. But the other person here, it's either you don't know if they're smart enough so you need to make sure that they, they can get it, or two, that you're not really sure what you're talking about. So it's. Does that make sense? Like it's, it's that kind of way of using it that it, it becomes a crutch is what it is. Because it's, it's very, it's. That's all it is as a crutch, like anything else, of using ums. Like I have a friend who would always say that's right after everything. It's just these little bitty fillers that, that don't mean anything and they're not hurtful in any way, but just in regular professional context, they may not sound all that confident. Another little key thing for anybody is if you want to sound confident, pretty as quickly as possible, use the word confident. Use the word confident. If you were interviewing me, Jennifer and I, you asked a card question. I went, yeah, I mean, I think, I think so. I mean, why not? I don't see any reason not to. Or you ask me the same question and instead I said I'm confident I can do that. Like which one do you think is going to be the person that you go, you're going to write down? This person is so confident. Using confident.

[B]

That's a good point. You also, I notice this is actually not, I've noticed this a lot. The people who are the most successful, the top leaders, they're using less words. They're not using these like verbose, they're not sending verbose texts, verbose emails. It's very much what they need to say and they move on, they keep it moving. There's no like long winded nonsense, is it? It could be because they don't have a lot of time but I also believe it's because they are a lot of times confident. They're not trying to impress, they're just trying to get their, what they need to say out and then they keep it moving.

[A]

That's a thousand percent. People who are insecure have the need to say everything. People who are confident have the need to say nothing. They don't have to say it to know that they know it.

[B]

That's a hundred percent.

[A]

Yeah. What I, I like to say is when it comes to confidence and communication, instead of being a waterfall, be a well meaning instead of having to overflow, overshare over, explain or they can't even contain it all. It's you, you become a well meaning. If they have a question and you say yeah, I know this, like then you're, you're confident in the depth of your knowledge, meaning they can come get exactly what they need and you're not overflowing it in some way. It's a great way to kind of think how much information you share with people around you because there's a tendency to say way too much and that's, that's very common.

[B]

Also though it's because I've, I've noticed with myself, with you, I've said does it make sense twice because you also are. People kind of respond to how the other person is. Right. And so for me, when someone's very slow to communicate that it's like that empty space or that that like the quietness, you feel like you need to like fill it with something. You know, it's like kind of psychological. Right. And we, right, we have to kind of get over that because you're right. I think when that, that is like that, that symbolizes more power in the conversation. Right? Because I noticed because you're so, like, you're so not. Stoic is the wrong word. But like I said, you're, you think before you answer. So there's like a pause. So that makes the other person maybe uncomfortable. So I'm like, does that make sense? Does it, Jefferson?

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

You haven't noticed.

[A]

Well, it was a good. No, that was a good, It's a good case study. What I tell people is instead of does that make sense, it's the, what are your thoughts? What do you think? Because that's really why you're, that's really why you're asking. Otherwise, it's, it's, it's super common. I know, I know so many people who use it. There's nothing wrong with it. It just whatsoever. It just happens that when you're in certain, if you want to sound, let's say, more assertive, that's one way to do it.

[B]

No, I think it's, I think it's great. So you have kids. So do I. I was wondering, for kids, right? What would be one habit for them that you can instill on that for kids to be a better communicator for when they become an adult? Like, what would be one thing that we can teach our kids so they come across like better communicators where they can learn this for when they're older and also to help them now.

[A]

So I have a seven year old and a five year old, and what I will often do if they're in some kind of spat, you know, about who's touching me or who's, you know, has this toy that my son now has that my daughter's demanding, even though she's acted like this toy never existed for the last three years and she's never picked it up, is I will often take the moment to time out and I will ask them what the other person is thinking. So I will. So let's say it's the brother. I'll say, now what do you, what do you think your sister thinks when you do that or you say that and get him to think about it? I'll do the same thing for her. And I'll say, well, no, what do you, when you, when you did that, what do you think your brother thinks? And so what I'm doing is getting them outside of themselves to think of what things appear and sound like from the other person's point of view. Part of a very good communicator is understanding not only your point and your argument, but all the more understanding the other person's. And so all I'm doing is just giving them awareness to be able to read people and read the room based on projecting out, if you say this, what do you think how that person is going to respond? So I like to do a lot of timeouts and asking when you say that or when you did that, how do you think she's going to feel? Or how do you think he's going to feel? And not in some way where they can't, you know, they're supposed to always be worried about somebody else's emotion. That's not it. It's we. It's teaching the. Not getting so tied up in thinking about me, me, me, what I want, what I want. And what's almost always happened is I might say to him, you know, what do you know, what do you think sister feels when you do that? And he said, she probably feels upset. And I said, well, you want her upset? No. Well, how do you, what could you say? Do you think that would make her less upset? And almost every time he comes up with something better than I could think of. And I mean. And they immediately reconcile. And so it's, it's trying to get them out of the. That kind of caveman mentality of that's mine, this is yours territorial kind of stuff that kids have.

[B]

I like that. I'm going to try that. Now that you're doing all this, I'm imagining you're not practicing law anymore, right?

[A]

I still practice law. I still have cases, still have clients.

[B]

You do?

[A]

Yes. And I just delegate a lot of stuff. So I have other attorneys that are doing it because just my time.

[B]

How do you spend most of your time now, besides being in the car and doing videos? How much time is that? How much time do you actually do that? How do you kind of adjust your days?

[A]

It depends how much speaking I have that month. So I travel and speak quite a bit. And how much for. I try to limit it to about two to three times a month, bring the whole family with me. And it needs to line up with kids schedules and all that stuff. So we have a pretty strong filter of what I say yes to and what I say no to. And then a lot of my day is thinking of how I can develop more either products or things that I can add more value to help more people. The videos don't take that long. I mean, the videos are either 30 seconds to a minute in the car and they're not written down anywhere. I think of them in my head and shoot them Typically in one to two takes and then it's gone. You know, trying to figure out what's going to be the best. It's, you know, right now I make decisions on what's based for the family, not exactly what's best for business. And that, that helps keeps me really grounded.

[B]

So are you writing a new book? I mean, you have your, the book that you have is pretty good. You know what I mean? There's a lot of information in there that can, people can get to have better, have better conversations, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're spending sometimes you're basically do have a law firm still. Is that basically my question?

[A]

That's correct. Yes, I do.

[B]

Is there something besides. I have one other question that I, I kind of like went around and I forgot to kind of ask this and then I'll ask you something else, but the defensive one, like, how do we not become defensive? Like there's been so many times I know that, like, I know that a fight's going to happen because of something that hap. I, you know, I said something wrong or this person said something and they've said something to me that I, you know, or whatever. And then you become defensive. Like how do you eliminate that feeling? Or how do you not respond defensively when that is your like gut. And, and I know you're going to probably say pause, but in the moment, if we're not in that moment when besides pausing, how else can we, how else can we deal with that type of thing make sense? Just kidding.

[A]

There's some phrases that I would encourage people to use. If you don't want to be defensive in that moment and really get the other person defensive, then you have to use phrases that aren't going to put up their walls. These are phrases. Like my favorite one, believe it or not, is I agree. That does not mean I agree with what they said. I go bigger picture. I will say, well, I agree that's something to consider. I agree that's a, that's a point of view. I, I agree that's a point. I agree that's an issue. I agree that's something to talk about. Like these really high end. I'm not having to say I agree with your position. I, I can say, well, I, I agree that's, that's definitely a take. That's. I, I agree that whatever. And see, they just hear the phrase I agree and go, oh, okay, they could like put down all their swords. They, they now they, they were so ready to go into battle and you just said I agree that what they said matters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in it. And it, and it kind of pulls down that defensiveness. Another one that I like is telling them what's helpful. Well, that's helpful to know. Thank you for telling me. That's helpful to know. Whenever you say that they feel like they have a mutual buy in into their own understanding. Like they, they've done their job teaching, they've connected, that this is matters to them. Another that I like, it's very much related to it is what I've learned. So I might say what I'm hearing or what I've learned is this is really important to you. And they're going to go, yeah, it is really important to me. And they're going to feel like you're right there with them instead of you going, why do you believe that? Oh, okay, well, why, why in getting them all defensive. That's a really good. Using really, really intelligent questions that are going to pull down that defensiveness.

[B]

I love that. And then we kind of circled around this idea of if it's not. If you're, if the intention shouldn't be about winning an argument, what should the intention be? Like when you're going into a difficult conversation and you don't want to quote, unquote, win, then what is the outcome that you should be looking for, like in a negotiation or something like that?

[A]

Connection. Rather than trying to win the argument. I compare that to this tug of war that you have with somebody, and that's a simplistic illustration. But what I like to teach is that when you try to win the argument, you will lose the relationship. Who wants to be around the person who always has to have the last word? Who always has to be right? Do you want to be around the person who always has to be right? No. Isn't that crazy? This person says that they're right and I don't want to be around them because it's. What does that mean? That means that there's something more than just being right. There's, there's, there's depth, there's emotional depth to the conversation rather than just who's right or wrong or the person who always has to throw in their two cents and always has to have the last word. You don't win anything. You, you win somebody's contempt, you win their frustration, you win their eye rolls. You in awkward silence when you see each other again. It's having to have the last word. And the final say is something that's going to lose the relationship. And in exchange you lose their Respect. And ultimately the connection.

[B]

Have I forgotten to ask something that's super important that you talk about?

[A]

No, I honestly think you've covered just about everything, Jennifer. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything else.

[B]

Are you sure? I feel like I'm forgetting some stuff that. That I had here. Because I'm not worried.

[A]

That'll be. That'll be our. Our. Our part two. No, I think you promise, because I.

[B]

This is this virtual thing. I. I asked because, like I said at the beginning, I'm upset I didn't say it on this thing, but, like. And you could. You're. You're the expert in communication. How much actually gets lost when you do stuff like this? Because now the world has come to this technology where people are doing virtuals and zooms and digital. Like, you can't you miss the essence of having people face to face to really get that connection? That's how you build connection, in my opinion.

[A]

Yeah, I would. I say, how much is lost? I mean, 36%. I mean, like, all of the guests that I have on my podcast are virtual.

[B]

Really?

[A]

You know, like. Yeah. And the podcast.

[B]

I guess you're right.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so it's. Would I like to have people in person? Yeah. Why? Because that would make me feel better. It doesn't really change the quality so much of the. The conversation and, you know, does in person do better? Maybe for content really, you know, for video, maybe. But at the end of the day, I've seen lots of podcasts that do great virtually, and I see lots of podcasts that do good in person. How much do you lose with the zoom stuff? It's not the same. That's no argument there. It's not the same. There's still plenty of place and space for meaningful dialogue. Doesn't bother me.

[B]

Well, I thank you so much for being a guest on this podcast, Jefferson.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, you're. You're the best. I like, I said I was following you when you had, like, six followers. I like, not maybe I think you had, like, literally like a thousand something, like, something so crazy. And I would send you, like, I said I would send your videos to, like, a lot of my friends, and they're like, wow, he's so good. And the next time I check on you, you're like a million. And then you're like 4 million. I'm like, what's going on with this guy? Like, that's funny.

[A]

Well, thank you very much.

[B]

No, but you know what? It is. I think this. This says a lot about authenticity. Right. Because, you know, you are. You seem like a really, like, nice person that's, like, this is who you are. You're very authentic. You're not performative. You're not doing something because you're trying to be a content creator or an influencer. It's just like, you're sharing valuable information that people can actually use to improve some part of their life, which, by the way, like you said, communication improves every area of your life, and you're providing that in such a real way that it's only natural that people are going to gravitate to that. So I'm not.

[A]

Thank you very much. I appreciate. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, thanks. Thanks for your time and having me on, and I'm wishing you all the best.

[B]

No, thank you. And I'm not allowing you off this podcast until you promise me that when you are in California that you will do it in person. Because I just think it, like, even if you think the con. Whatever. I think it's a much better conversational exchange when you're face to face.

[A]

I think we can make it work.

[B]

Yay. All right, Jefferson, I. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you, and thanks for being on the podcast.

[A]

Absolutely. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Take care. Bye. Bye.