Podcast Summary: Habits and Hustle – Episode 505

Guest: Jefferson Fisher

Topic: How to Argue Less and Communicate Better
Host: Jennifer Cohen
Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Habits and Hustle features Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer turned communication coach and social media sensation (12+ million followers), sharing practical wisdom on how to argue less and communicate better in every area of life. Jefferson and Jen explore why effective communication is vital, mistakes people make, actionable techniques to improve, and how to navigate tough conversations—at work, at home, online, and beyond.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Jefferson’s Story & Rise to Communication Coach

• Origins: Jefferson started making simple, practical videos (mostly in his car!) during a career transition, offering tips drawn from the courtroom:

  “Three and a half years ago I started making videos…how to communicate better, how to argue like a lawyer, how to handle people getting defensive… Those videos… started to take off.” — Jefferson (02:46)

• Reluctant Influencer: He doesn’t see himself as an influencer, content creator, or coach, but simply as a “communication guy.”
• Unexpected Growth: “It was like, me showing friends. Can you believe this? Isn’t this weird? And then it slowly started to build from there.” (03:30)

Why Communication Matters

• It's Everything: “Communication touches everything that you do. You can say things by saying things and you can say things by not saying things… Even in the absence of sound, it’s not the absence of communication.” (04:16)
• Perception: “Anything anybody will think about you has to do largely based on what comes out of your mouth.” (04:45)

Biggest Communication Mistake

• Assumption of Understanding:

  “The biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.” (06:33)

  • Most conflict arises when there is a gap between what was said and what was heard.

The Power of Tone and Body Language

• Tone is Regulation: Speaking slower helps others think, feel, and respond more calmly.

  “When I speak slower, you think slower… now you’re matching my energy.” (09:01)

• Body Language Must Match Words:

  “If your body language does not match what’s coming out of your mouth, the other person is going to sense that… I cannot trust this.” (11:19)

Simple, Practical Communication Tips

1. Get Honest Feedback:
   • “Ask your best friend, ‘How would you describe the way I communicate? What would you change if you could?’” (11:55)
2. Slow Down:
   • “Take a three-second pause before you respond to somebody… you’re going to sound like your words were intentional.” (13:03)
3. Ask More (and Better) Questions:
   • Show genuine interest; don’t “one-up”—make it more about the other person.
   • “There has to be a level of genuine interest that nobody can teach.” (16:58)
   • For connection: “What was your favorite part? What did you like about it?” (13:44)

The Difference Between Nice and Kind

• “Nice is surface level… politeness… Kindness is related to the word ‘kin.’ It’s family, it’s connection, it’s much deeper. Kindness says, ‘I care about you enough to tell you something, even though it doesn’t sound nice, even if it’s hard.’” (13:07)

Saying No Without Guilt

• No-Thank-You Formula:

  1. Start with a clear no.
  2. Express gratitude.
  3. Add kindness about their event/opportunity.

  “I can’t make it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Let me know how it goes… You don’t have to over-explain.” (19:57)

• Make Promises to Yourself:

  “I made a promise to myself to… prioritize the family this weekend.” (21:24)

• Don’t Overjustify:

  “Whenever you add on the justification, it makes it look worse… Why not just say no?” (22:43)

Implementing Communication Tips in Real Time

• The #1 struggle: “How do I implement these tips in real time? I can’t remember them in the moment.” (26:39)
• Many people fear difficult conversations or don’t know how to structure them, especially with family they’re estranged from or at work. (27:19)

Framing Difficult Conversations

• Have a Goal:

  “If you don’t have a goal for the conversation, you’re just flying blind… you’ll get off track.” (28:35)

• The Power of Frames: Structure conversations by:
  1. Telling them what you want to talk about.
  2. Stating your shared goal.
  3. Getting their buy-in.

  Example: “Hey, Jen, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday’s meeting. I just want to walk away feeling there’s a new understanding…” (31:18)

• Remove Vague Anxiety: Explicit frames reduce stress:

  “Remove the anxieties of the unknowns from the outset in the frame, the conversations always go better.” (32:55)

Text vs. Voice

• “Texting is incredibly efficient. It’s just not efficient at connection.” (33:55)
• “If you have something important, pick up the phone. They have to hear your voice.” (34:15)
• Never open with “We need to talk.” Instead, specify the topic (“Can we talk about the kids’ schedule for a moment?”). (36:18)

Staying Calm & Handling Triggers

• Pause is Powerful:

  “When your body gets triggered, you have to add time… By using your breath and slowing down, it regulates you physically and the other person.” (39:39)

• Silence signals control: “Pauses are extremely powerful because they give you the element of time.” (39:07)

Dealing With Narcissists & Difficult People

• Praise or Provoke Game:

  “If you’re not showering them with praise, they will then turn to provoke. They delight in your frustration as much as your praise.” (40:16)

• Stay Neutral:

  “You respond very neutral—Good to know. Noted. Thank you for saying that. Interesting. You’re not giving them anything to grab or twist.” (41:36)

• Handling Emotional Immaturity:

  • Ask questions about intent to avoid escalation:

    “Did you mean for that to sound rude? …Most people will back down.” (44:34)

  • With low emotional intelligence: “Lower your standards… keep conversations short and to the point, don’t use words that get them defensive… ask what, how, or when questions to open discussion.” (49:25)

Communicating with Confidence

• Assertive Voice:

  “Eliminate hesitancy—stop overapologizing, skip unnecessary adverbs and fillers like ‘just’ or ‘does that make sense.’ Use confident language.” (52:52)

• Gratitude over Apology:

  “Thank you for your patience” is better than “I’m sorry for the delay.” (53:57)

• Less is More:

  “People who are insecure have the need to say everything. People who are confident have the need to say nothing.” (58:05)

  • “Instead of being a waterfall, be a well… they can come get exactly what they need.” (58:20)
  • Try, “What are your thoughts?” instead of “Does that make sense?” (60:01)

Teaching Kids Better Communication

“I’ll ask them what the other person is thinking… Getting them outside themselves to think how things appear or sound from another’s perspective. Part of being a good communicator is understanding not just your point, but theirs.” (61:01)

Insights on Digital Communication & Virtual Connections

• Virtual loses some nuance (~36% is missing), but meaningful dialogue is still possible.

  “Would I like people in person? Yeah. Would it make me feel better? Yes… But at the end of the day, I’ve seen lots of podcasts do great virtually.” (71:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Communication is everything…even in silence, you’re still communicating.” (04:16)
• “The biggest miss is assuming that what you said was exactly how it was received.” (06:33)
• “Slowing down is one of the most effective tools in communication.” (13:03, 15:49)
• “Kindness is deeper than niceness—kindness cares enough to tell you the truth.” (13:07)
• “Be a well, not a waterfall; confidence is about depth, not overflow.” (58:18)
• “If you want to sound confident, use the word confident.” (56:30)
• “If your body language does not match what’s coming out of your mouth, the other person will sense it.” (11:19)
• “Texting is efficient but not at connection. If it’s important, pick up the phone.” (34:15)
• “When your goal is to win the argument, you will lose the relationship.” (68:38)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• Jefferson’s Background/Origin Story: 02:46–04:11
• Why Communication Matters: 04:11–05:16
• Biggest Communication Mistake: 05:37–07:00
• Tone and Body Language: 07:00–11:19
• Practical Tips (Ask for Feedback, Slow Down): 11:19–13:03
• Difference: Nice vs. Kind: 13:07–15:49
• How to Say No: 19:57–22:43
• Implementation Struggles: 26:39–27:19
• Framing Difficult Conversations: 28:35–33:12
• Power of Silence in Arguments/Pausing: 38:00–39:39
• Dealing with Narcissists: 39:56–42:00
• Handling Emotional Immaturity & Defensiveness: 46:54–49:25, 66:16–68:15
• Communicating with Confidence (language, brevity): 52:52–60:00
• Teaching Kids Communication: 61:01–63:30
• Virtual vs. In-person Communication: 70:22–71:51

Final Takeaways

• Effective communication is both an art and a learned practice—slowing down, asking good questions, and structuring tough conversations are key.
• Confidence in communication means brevity, assertiveness, and matching your body language to your message.
• Connection outweighs winning; emotional intelligence, genuine interest, and clarity build meaningful relationships.
• Teach the next generation to step into others’ shoes, not just to express themselves.

For more on Jefferson Fisher, check out his book and social media. To hear the full conversation, listen to Habits and Hustle, Episode 505.