Transcript

A (0:01)

Hi, guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

B (0:06)

You guys, we have a special treat on this podcast. This is one I've actually been wanting to do for a very long time. I like, I'm like a giddy school girl. Because you're so interesting. We have Andrew, Andrew Bustamante. He is a former CIA agent who wrote a New York Times best selling book called Shadow Cell. He is going to talk. We're gonna. I'm so. I, I don't. I'm not even gonna like, give you any more than that. I just want to say thank you for being on the show. I am fascinated by you in every way. And what we do on these show, on this show to keep our focus and be alert is we take these magic mind shots. Do you wanna do me the honors? They're really healthy. There's nothing in it except lion's mane, ashwagandha. All the things. Yeah. And it helps people stay focused. Focused and, you know, kind of locked in.

A (0:55)

All right, let's get focused.

B (0:56)

This one has no caffeine too, so.

A (0:57)

Thank you for that.

B (0:58)

Yeah. Oh. Oh, yeah. I should actually. We go like this usually. Thank you. Do you like it? I can't drink more than like five a day, so. It's good, right?

A (1:09)

Yeah, like, it's a lot smoother than I expected.

B (1:10)

It's really, it's super tasty. But I love them. But I, like I said I, I can have like, because I do this podcast, I can't have them with every single. If I have like one for every guest, I will literally be climbing off of the walls. You know what I mean? Anyway, so thank you for being on the show. You are very fascinating to me. Like I said, I've loved, I've. I really have been like a fan of yours for a very long time. Can we just kind of. Can you kind of give like a very brief overview? I started the show by saying you were a covert CIA agent. What does that even mean? Who are you? Kind of just give me. Give everyone like kind of like a very brief overview and then we're going to dive right in.

A (1:47)

Absolutely. So CIA is broken into two parts. There's an overt part and a covert part. An overt is actually everybody who works for CIA. They can say they work for CIA. Their paycheck comes from CIA. Their mortgage says they work for CIA. That's an overt employee. But then there's a covert employee who has all of that undercover. They work for a different company. They they have falsified information for their mortgages, falsified information that goes to the irs. It's all government sanctioned because the government has put them in that covert role. But that's your coverts side. So undercover operations are known officially as covert operations. And the COVID element of CIA is approximately 10% of the whole of CIA.

Summary

Habits and Hustle – Episode 519

Guest: Andrew Bustamante
Title: Reading People, Predicting Behavior and Creating Leverage
Host: Jen Cohen
Release Date: January 13, 2026

Episode Overview

In this fascinating conversation, Jen Cohen sits down with Andrew Bustamante—former covert CIA officer and author of the bestseller Shadow Cell. Andrew unpacks the clandestine world of espionage, sharing how agents are chosen, the psychological wiring that makes someone suited for undercover work, and the real-life skills of reading, influencing, and predicting people. Bridging his intelligence experience into everyday life, Andrew delves into practical, ethical manipulations, emotional intelligence, and the difference between perception and perspective, giving listeners a rare window into both the shadowy world of spies and the power of human behavior.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inside the CIA: Overt vs. Covert (01:47 – 04:53)

CIA Divisions: Andrew describes the agency as split between overt roles (public-facing, openly works for CIA) and covert roles (undercover, false work histories, protected identities).
Covert Culture: Only about 10% of the agency operates covertly, living secret lives. Even after leaving, only "sources and methods" remain classified for life; other aspects can be shared.

"There's a culture inside CIA of simply not talking. So it's irrelevant that you can share more than is shared, because the culture is one where you just keep your mouth shut." (03:04, Andrew)

2. Recruitment, Personality, and Psychological Wiring (05:13 – 13:52)

Recruitment Pathways: CIA looks for psychologically unique people—nonconformists, high performers, but often with challenging backgrounds.
Profile of a Covert Agent: Andrew shares his own upbringing (trauma, feeling like an outsider) which made him an ideal candidate.

"All of us are willing to basically dump everything that we've ever built just for the chance of being kind of on the leading edge of legalized criminal activity." (08:49, Andrew)
Recruitment Numbers: Out of ~50,000 assessed annually, only ~300 are hired for roles. Recruitment is a blend of application, campus recruitment, and handpicked candidates.

3. The Art & Science of Lying, Covers, and Training (20:00 – 29:19)

Professional Lying: Agents are taught tight, simple lies rooted as close to the truth as possible. Professional liars talk less, keep stories simple.

"Amateur liars talk a great deal because professional liars know the more you talk, the more difficult it is to remember the details of the lie." (22:59, Andrew)
Life Undercover: The process entails elaborate “cover legends,” which sometimes include masquerading as employees at partner organizations.

“They start coaching you through the process of lying professionally. Everything we have ever done in our life is lying unprofessionally.” (22:45, Andrew)
Skills Assessment: Success against "hard targets" (countries hostile to the US) is a key capability. Andrew self-describes as extremely pragmatic and admits to a limited emotional connection to fairness or justice.

4. Practical Spy Skills: Reading & Directing Human Behavior (44:19 – 47:58)

Predicting Behavior: Espionage is about reading and adjusting human behavior—exploiting social expectations, reading body language, and knowing how to direct people subconsciously.

“Human beings aren’t really that difficult to understand, and they’re not that difficult to predict, which makes them not that difficult to control or direct.” (44:30, Andrew)
Tactics in Action: From mirroring body language to using silence to prompt disclosure, Andrew provides real-world, practical examples.
Mirroring as a Key:

"When you mirror somebody, it's irresistible. Subconsciously, they can't ignore the fact that they feel comfortable around you because you are acting like they are acting." (50:14, Andrew)

5. Influence and Persuasion: Emotional Levers & Everyday Application (50:41 – 67:38)

Persuasion vs. Influence:

"Persuasion is emotional, which means it can only happen when you're with a person... Influence is what happens when you are not connected to a person, but they're still thinking about you." (50:41, Andrew)
Core Emotions & Motivations: People are driven by six core emotions (fear, sadness, anger, disgust, happiness, surprise), with most motivated by fear/anger/sadness.
Manipulation vs. Motivation:

"Manipulation is specifically when you get someone else to do something that's beneficial to you and not beneficial to them. ... Motivation is getting someone to do what you want them to do, and it's good for them." (66:20, Andrew)
Actionable Advice: Identify and tap into a person’s core emotion for both motivation and manipulation, but with ethical clarity.

6. Reading People: Assessment Not Assumption (71:47 – 74:39)

Assessment Over Assumption: Andrew explains how continuous observation—without premature conclusions—leads to accurate real-time judgments.
Open vs. Closed Body Language: Body positions, facial movements, and even comfort with silence can betray real thoughts/feelings.

7. Blind Spots: Perception vs. Perspective (90:18 – 96:49)

Perception: How you see the world, usually self-centric.
Perspective: Stepping outside yourself to objectively gather others’ viewpoints and data.

“To gain power over other people, you need to step out of your perception and step into a position of perspective. Perspective means collecting the objective information in the environment around you and then using that as your foundation of truth, not your perception.” (90:18, Andrew)

8. Everyday Application: Consulting, Sales, and Personal Power (110:17 – 111:21)

Andrew consults on high-level sales, negotiation, and reading people:

"All sales is, is persuasion and influence. Human intelligence operations is really nothing more than selling treason in exchange for secrets. It's just salesmanship." (110:17, Andrew)
Key Tool: Silence is an information-gathering tool:

“When you stop talking…it forces the people around you to start talking. And oftentimes they haven’t thought about what they want to say before they speak because they’re just trying to fill the silence.” (101:06, Andrew)

9. Parenting, Conditioning, and Culture (79:09 – 81:15)

Parental Manipulation: Much of parenting is shaping behavior based on what benefits the parent, not always the child.
Cultural Conditioning: Andrew and his wife homeschool their children and travel, intentionally exposing them to diverse environments to mitigate cultural conditioning.

10. Life After the Agency: Leaving, Family, and Fulfillment (85:52 – 89:24)

Why Leave the CIA? After the birth of their child, Andrew and his wife discovered the agency prioritized mission over family, prompting their exit.
Moving Abroad: Seeking to broaden their children's perspectives, the Bustamantes continue to live globally and educate their children outside the traditional American experience.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

On covert work:

“All of us are willing to basically dump everything that we’ve ever built just for the chance of being kind of on the leading edge of legalized criminal activity.” (08:49, Andrew)
On body language and reading people:

“Professional liars only lie as little as possible in terms of how far they deviate from the truth.” (23:18, Andrew)
On manipulation and motivation:

“Manipulation is getting someone to do what you want them to do, and it’s not in their best interest. ... Motivation is getting someone to do what you want them to do, and it’s good for them.” (66:20, Andrew)
On emotional intelligence:

“Emotional intelligence requires you to not only be self aware of your emotions, but empathetic enough to recognize the emotions of another person.” (98:53, Andrew)
On perspective:

“To gain power over other people, you need to step out of your perception and step into a position of perspective.” (90:18, Andrew)
On working at CIA:

“What CIA does differently than most organizations, right?... CIA is looking for people who have a psychological need for external validation. And then CIA can become the single source for that external validation.” (39:14, Andrew)
On leaving the CIA:

“We realized in that moment that CIA’s interests were not the same as our interests... CIA was putting us in this box where they seemed to assume that we were going to put country before we put family. And that’s just not how we were wired.” (86:37, Andrew)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

CIA, Overt & Covert Explained: 01:47–04:53
Recruitment & Psychological Suitability: 05:13–13:52
Early CIA Interview Experience: 17:51–23:41
Professional Lying: 22:45–24:43
Operational Utility vs. Opportunism: 25:10–27:53
Case Officer vs. Delta Force: 05:52–07:13, 42:54–43:50
Behavior Manipulation Examples: 44:44–48:14
Persuasion vs. Influence: 50:41–54:47
Identifying Core Emotions & Motivation: 67:46–71:30, 97:16–98:47
Perception vs. Perspective: 90:18–96:49
Leaving CIA & Family Decisions: 85:52–89:24
Corporate Training & Consulting: 110:17–111:21
Epstein file speculation: 118:13–126:52

Episode Tone & Takeaways

Andrew Bustamante’s tone is direct, sometimes disarmingly honest, and highly analytical, blending a spy’s calculated detachment with a teacher’s desire to demystify. Jen Cohen maintains an energetic, curious, and even playful style, keeping the conversation engaging and accessible.

Takeaways for Listeners:

The everyday skills of spies—reading body language, leveraging silence, mirroring, and understanding emotional drives—are available to all of us.
Persuasion, motivation, and manipulation are close cousins; the difference lies in intent and who benefits.
Most people operate in their own perception; those who achieve true influence learn to see the world from others’ perspectives.
Emotional intelligence is a trainable, not innate, skill.

Find Andrew Bustamante:

Book: Shadow Cell
Instagram: @EverydaySpy

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Episode 519: Andrew Bustamante: Reading People, Predicting Behavior and Creating Leverage