← Hacking Your ADHD
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- [00:00]
A
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mysteries to unexplained phenomena, from comedy gold to relationship fails, Amazon Music's got the most ad free Top podcasts included with prime because the only thing that should interrupt your listening is, well, nothing. Download the Amazon Music app today. Welcome to Hacking youg adhd. I'm your host William Curb, and I have ADHD on this podcast. I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team. This week I'm talking with Danny Donovan, a narrow, divergent artist and designer whose ADHD comics have been shared all over the Internet. Danny holds a BFA in Visual Communication and Design and is the creator of the Antiplanner. She spent years as an advocate for neurodivergence, using her background in design to simplify those complicated, invisible daily struggles we all face. In our conversation today, we're diving into why traditional pioneers often feel like they never quite work, how we want them to, and how we can transition into a toolbox mindset. Instead, we explore the concept of anti shame tactics and how to stop using mean spirited motivation. Dani also shares some of her favorite hacks for the mundane stuff like an inbox sprint and some more unconventional strategies. Strategies such as worse drafts or even the gathering packs to keep herself moving. I had a lot of fun with this episode, so I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 277 alright, keep on listening to find out how to stop using your expensive planner just as a coaster. It's really cool to see the anti planner and I've been looking through it for the last few days as much as I after stealing it back from my daughter. But it's not a planner. But as the name implies. So can you tell us a little bit about what it is?
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A
The name is confusing to a lot of people and then it makes complete sense to other people because I really wanted it to kind of just be like the antithesis of a planner because I was that girl who was like, I will buy a 60, $70 planner and this is the year that I change my life and this is the year that I get my shit together and this the year that like I will be organized. And I know I bought this expensive planner last year and I quit by March, but this year it would be different and then it's not different and I, you know, I miss a page or I miss a couple days, I go on vacation or I forget about it or whatever it is and I lose that momentum and now there are blank pages and I just used to freeze and really get like so perfectionistic about it that it was just really hard to get like back on the wagon. And I realized that I always ended up quitting because of like the same reasons. And so with the anti planner I literally made like a list of. Here are all of the things. Well, this was actually started as like an ADHD planner. I really was like, how do I make an ADHD planner that like I will actually stick with? And while I was kind of concepting that out, I found myself using these like super weird strategies to get myself to work on this. And I sort of like looked over here and I was like, this is what I'm actually doing. Like this is what's actually working for me. Which is coming up with all these like weird, all these weird games. And so then I, yeah, I sort of like stepped back and went what? What is it about planners that isn't working for me? And it was that they are repetitive and they are like cold and they don't have like instruction beyond just like here is one template for you to fill out day after day. If that stops working for you, you're sol. And so there was so much like wait. And also that it goes bad. Like the daily planners I was buying, there are Undated planners, but the planners I was buying are December 31st. You have to spend more money to like, get another one if you don't want to have to fill out all the dates yourself. And so there was like this sense of it's like a ticking time bomb almost, and that if you don't, if you blow your chances or you lose it or whatever happens, like, it's not an evergreen kind of thing for those day planners. But I loved how I felt when I was in control enough to be using it as a strategy. But what I didn't really see is that it was, it is just one strategy. It is just one way to get things done is by using like a day, a day planner. And I realized as I was working on it that I was using all these different ways to get things done. I had like a little. I called it like my field notes guide, and it was just blank pieces of dot grid paper. And I was doing things, like, coming up with, like, theme weeks where I was like, I have a bunch of stuff I need to do about finance things, but they're all random. I am going to make 10 checkboxes and I am going to do 10 things related to finance this week, even if they're tiny. If I get to the end of the week and one of these has to be checked by Wells Fargo account so I can write it down and check it off and have a thing, that will be fine because I will be doing 10 things and anything more than that is like, bonus. And so having that, like, direction was great, but then the next week I might not want to be, like, doing that. And so I'd kind of pick up another strategy. And I just looked at how many strategies were sort of like in this binder and flipping through it and really saying, well, what if the strategy is that I've got a bunch of strategies and that the ADHD key is that you don't beat yourself up for not sticking with things, you instead plan on not sticking with things. And the thing that I really tried to do with the anti planner was realizing that, like, the. This is a toolbox and different tools solve different resistances, solve different problems. And so I kind of say this to people a lot where it's like, if there's. If I give you, you know, like a screw and a hammer and I tell you to get it into the wall, like, you can tactically do it, but you're not gonna have a good time, and there's a specific tool that is built to match and fix that like, solve that specific problem, that specific resistance. And so there are so many different reasons why we have a hard time getting stuff done. There are so many different reasons why we think about doing things and don them, why that avoidance happens. And if you're trying to solve all of them with a planner, you're trying to solve all of them with a to do list. It's like you're trying to solve every problem, every resist if you got with a hammer and it's not going to work. And we blame ourselves. And I'm like, I'm sick of everybody blaming themselves for this when we're not the problem. There just weren't things being developed that solved for the problem we were experiencing. Which is the not sticking with things part.
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B
Yeah. The consistently inconsistent.
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A
Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's just my people.
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B
Yeah. I remember the beginning of this year. Like, you know, I was getting just deluged with ads for different planners and stuff. And I'm like, that one looks good. And that one looks good. And that one looks good. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna decide. I'm like, I don't like any of these. These are all terrible. And.
- [07:58]
A
Or I decide I'm gonna fail before I even start. I look at it and I look at the price, and I remember how many times I failed, and I'm like, do I want to spend the money on a thing that's just gonna make me feel bad about myself? That failure, that baggage is so real.
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B
It was funny where I was like, oh, there was that one planner I really liked a couple years ago, and I, like, looked it up. I'm like, oh, they went out of business. Okay.
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A
Oh, no. A lot of us, too. It's like, I don't. Have you ever tried bullet journaling?
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B
Very briefly, yeah.
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A
I loved bullet journaling because I am a designer. And I went that direction where it's like, I'm gonna spend way too long making this cool, like, a different layout every week. And then I'm going to make myself use. Like, I have the reason to use it, which is that I spent so much time making it that, like, to not use it would be a waste. And that worked for a little while, but I did it. I think I did it for, like, two or three months. And, like, two, two and a half months seems to really be my. Or, like, three months is like, how long my hobby, new hobbies, last is, like, always two and a half to three months. But it was unsustainable. It was the perfectionism. Like, perfectionism is always what gets me. So there are different sections of the book, like of the Anti Planner, that. That help deal with those different resistances, and one of them is perfectionism. And that is the section that I like, live and breathe because it is what gets in the way so often.
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B
Yeah. It is so easy to fall into that, like, optimization trap where you're like, I'm going to make this so good.
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A
Yes.
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B
And I can't not use it. And yes.
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A
Let me overcomplicate things and avoid by overcomplication.
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B
Yeah. And then you, like, get through it. Like, man, I'm overwhelmed now. Yeah.
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A
I'm like, I can't just do it the simple basic way that it was designed to be because then I'll have to spend that time doing stuff and I want to be doing art instead.
- [09:36]
B
Too easy to make our systems get in the way of what we want to be doing. But then we're like, well, then we'll have no system. And then we're like, now I'm doing nothing. Perfect.
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A
Yes. I just started tracking my time again. So one of the things that I. I have not said this anywhere. This is an exclusive, an exclusive announcement or something. So I made a quiz in notion that you can take that has the different. So each of the sections in the Anti Planner, it's broken up into like stock, stuck, overwhelmed, unmotivated, disorganized and discouraged. And then each of those sections has little sub emotions. So you, you have a thing that's like, I need to do my 2025 taxes and I am having a really hard time. Okay, what's making it difficult? I'm overwhelmed. So you flip to the overwhelmed section and then you read the back and it says, how are you feeling? And you know, the. The first one that comes up is like, intimidated. I have so much to do. It's going to take forever. There are too many steps involved. I'm afraid to even start. I. And so there are four. You know, there's also over committed and panicked and burnt out. But that first one, intimidated, like, stands out as, oh, I relate to this. I relate to these statements. And so then I flip to the intimidated section and boom, there are all of the activities to help me with my task because they are tools designed specifically for the resistance that I'm facing. And that is awesome. I love that. But a lot of people, they, you know, it's like, okay, we'll pick one of these five tabs and they're like, why have all of them? I'm like, all of them all of the time. And that's very fair. And so it can be difficult in the moment to sort of figure out necessarily, like, which one to do. And so I made a quiz where you can click on them and it will automatically show you in order. Here are the 16 subsections ranked by what you scored in all of them. And so it is a very cool tool that I developed, I have not talked about or released yet to show you really what you're feeling. But in order to do this, there are two sections, disorganized and discouraged. The last two sections that only have two subsections each. And in order to make the quiz work, they all had to have the same number because you. You. You pretty much rate those, like, I have so much, or I have so much to do. And you. You rate it by, like, oh, I feel this way all of the time, or like, none of the time. And there's, you know, stuff in between there. It's sort of like the, like, anxiety and depression quiz. And so you, you. It's an executive dysfunction quiz, is what it is. And so you get to the end. And I needed two new sections for both of these. And so I ended up adding time, blind and routineless to the. The disorganized section and resentful and flooded to the discouraged section. Because those are reasons that after, like, this book's been out for, like, four years now, I think. And there are holes, like, gaps that I did not, you know, particularly recognize. And it's so interesting. Cause I went and took my own quiz and I got time, blind and routineless as my top things. Because those are the problems that I did not build a toolbox to solve. And so now I'm getting into the mode that's like, all right, those are definitely things I'm struggling with. How can I invent? Like, what can I invent? What can I try that's already worked? What can I tweak to get on top of these so that I can develop activities for, you know, an anti planner, too, or some new digital activities that are helping with these issues that I am having, which means lots of other people are also having them. And I started tracking my time again with, like, toggl and, like, paying attention. Like, I just start a timer where I'm, you know, doing my task, and, like, stop it and start with the new task. So I have to see at the end of the day where my time is going. And I have a little timer up at the corner where I look up. And if I got distracted, it's like, oh, My God, I've spent four hours doing this and I have almost nothing to show for it. Like, I need to get it together. I've been doing this for four hours. There was a reason why I started on this very long story, but it was, I think, down to the fact that, like, developing those tools that actually, like, help us in those moments. This time tracking thing worked for me for, like, years and then I just forgot about it. Like, I forgot that it existed, I forgot to do it, I stopped doing it and now I'm picking it back up again. I'm like, oh, right. And I think that that's what the anti planner is. Some people are like, this has some tools in it that they've heard of before. It has some that I just made up. But they more than anything reminds them of things that they might already know work for them. Because we forget, you know, I think we. We know we all have tools, but we forget what they are.
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B
Well, 100%. Like, often it feels like, oh, I need to find a new tool. And it's like, no, I don't need to find a new tool. I need to find a tool that works.
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A
Yes. Or remix. That's another thing that I've kind of got is like, how can you. I've got little, like, recommendations in these where it's like, pairs well with. And then there's other ones because a lot of these, it's like you can take three different tools and mash them together and. Or if, you know, ones that work with you, you could take other tools and mash them together so they still feel novel and your brain still gets that, like, this is a new thing. I'm not trying to, like, restart an old thing because restarting an old thing is not fun.
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B
Yeah, that can be real tricky, especially if you don't know why it fell apart.
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A
Yes.
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B
Because sometimes it's just like, oh, it's not novel anymore and that's fine. And that's not that hard to pick up again. But sometimes it fell apart because, oh, this was overly complicated and it was bad.
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A
That's just it. If you're able to troubleshoot why a strategy stopped working, if something was working and stopped if. And you want to pick that back up again. The key to picking it back up again is again, finding the resistance. So if it is, I forgot about it. It's like, how am I going to solve that if I want to do this again? How am I going to solve that problem so that doesn't happen again? How now I have to solve the problem of forgetting it and then coming up with ideas for how to do that if I want to incorporate that again, or if it's like, oh, I got bored, it's how can I reinvigorate it? Or if it's, oh, it got too complicated, it's like, how do I simplify it? But all of this goes down to just essentially like, turning these into, like, little engineering project and turning yourself into a science experiment. Right. Of like, let me try this and see if it works. And if it doesn't, I'm not a failure. I just have more information about what doesn't work. And so that whole, you know, a thousand ways to make a light bulb or whatever it is, like, figuring out or what do I say sometimes? Have you played wordle? I guess it's the same. Wordle and like, Hangman are very similar in that you're doing process of elimination work. And so I think that, like, when I play wordle, if you type in stuff and you get letters that are wrong, you don't go, oh, my God, I'm such a failure for guessing five letters that were correct right off the bat. And it's like, no, I just have information about what it isn't. And so that means I'm closer to getting to what is. And it's the same thing with strategies is every time I find out that something doesn't work for me, I'm able to sort of like, so long as you're paying attention to what it is, what those failure points are, you can use that data to make things so much easier on yourself.
- [16:18]
B
It is a lot of, like, introspection there where you're like, I do have to understand why this stopped. Because that also can inform if you're going to pick up a new tool. If it's just like, oh, yeah, I just forgot about using this, that's probably going to stick with any of the tools.
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A
Yes. And I kind of forget that the introspection is like a skill that is developed that does not just like, everybody does not instantly go, well, I quit doing this. It's like, why did you quit doing it? And they just go, I don't know. And I think that overcoming that internal I don't know factor and getting really curious about sitting down and like, what questions do I need to ask myself in order to figure if I really wanted to figure this out? Right. And I think that that is the key to so much of this is really deciding that you want to figure it out, that you want to figure yourself out, that you want to figure your productivity out, you want to sort your shit out. Like you want. You have to want it. And the hard part sometimes is wanting it. It's like I want to want it, but I don't. I want to play video games. Like I want to go play Baldur's Gate. I don't want to do, you know, work on this answering emails, but I want to watch to. And I think that what the anti planner does that I've talked to people about is it is a, like a momentum machine to where when you get it out and you open it, you are so much more likely to start on something because you have started with a decision that you want to do something and the first step isn't the first step of whatever it is you're doing. The first step is the baby step you got, which is opening this book on how to get stuff done. And so you already. I have goosebumps talking about my own stupid stuff. But it's like that you have already, you have already started, your journey has already begun and now you just have to lean into the momentum. And I think a lot of us with adhd, we rely on that momentum. And as we know, it's like if I take a break, this task is dead to me. Like getting myself to restart something is, is really painful. So that's why I'm like, I forget to stand up and go eat and drink water and go to the bathroom and do all this stuff because it's like if I am in the zone, please do not break me from the zone. Who knows if I'll be able to get back here.
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B
Oh yeah, that is always the worst where you're like, don't, don't. Yeah, it's done. I'm done.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay.
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A
Take frequent breaks. I'm like, okay, no, you don't know me at all.
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B
Okay. And then how do I come back from the break? How do I make sure the break doesn't go beyond like a five minutes?
- [18:41]
A
Yes. And so that's the thing that I have. There are so many things that I that didn't make it into the anti planner. And so like it's really hard because right now, so I self published this book and I running a company and figuring out like the logistics of how to get this into warehouses and you know, deal with like I've got counterfeits that we had to like figure out how to take out counterfeit listings and like all of these business logistics and all I want to do is like come up with strategies all day. And design stuff. And I realized that some of the stuff that I was doing, like, just didn't like, make it into the book. And so one of the things was, like, setting reminders that don't suck. And one of the things was how to take breaks that don't break your focus. I really often, like, wish that some of these had made it in there, but so much of it is like, okay, well, I'm just gonna walk laps around. Like, I used to go to a co working space and I would just walk laps around with like, music. So like a walking break where I don't let myself go anywhere. Like, I can't do it in the house. If I walk around the house, it's like, ooh, a cat. Ooh, a task to do. But if you're just walk, you have to walk in a place where there's nothing you can get distracted by, you know, and that's not always, not always easy. But that goes back to the troubleshooting of go for a walk is different. If you go for a walk and a walk doesn't work as a break, is it because you went for a walk in a place with distractions? Okay, well, I got distracted. How do I solve for that problem? I need to go for a walk in a place where I won't be distracted. And so I just. It's problem solving, like, real big on. My dad was an engineer, so I can't help it. Do you have $10,000 or more in credit card debt? Maybe you're even barely getting by making minimum payments? With credit card debt hitting record highs, National Debt Relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up. These options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify. You don't need to declare bankruptcy, and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit. National Debt Relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers. So don't wait. If you owe 10, 20, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases. To find out how much you could save, Visit National Debt Relief.com that's NationalDebtRelief.com
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B
well, and another thing I really noticed in the book too, is this also has like, a lot of like, anti shame tactics in there.
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A
Yes. Yeah.
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B
Because I feel like that's a big part of that troubleshooting thing too, is that we're like, I can't do this. I'm a bad person. And it's like, whoa, whoa, that slow down there.
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A
Or, or we've learned to motivate ourselves by being mean to ourselves because other people being mean to us motivated us. Other getting in trouble motivated us. So we're like, if I can convince myself I'm in trouble, or if I can convince myself that I'm not even convinced myself like, that I'm mad at me. I am mad at me. I don't, I think that people without ADHD don't necessarily realize how much time that it's like, ugh, you're. You think you're frustrated with me? I'm frustrated with myself 24 7. Like, I'm, I'm trapped in here. Like, I don't get to leave and I'm, I'm in this situation where I want to be doing things and I'm not doing them or I don't want to be doing things and I am doing them. And like, that's where dysfunction is. That's what the d, the last D in there is, is a disorder. Because I, I want to get myself to do stuff that I'm not doing. I want to get myself to stop doing something that I can't stop doing. And, and that lack of like, what feels like agency, like, that lack of control almost of like, I'm not, it feels like I'm not in the driver's seat. It feels like I'm like, I've got a, you know, eight year old driving this car and I'm watching the eight year old like, drive my car to, you know, like into a, like, ditch almost and being able to watch it happen in slow motion and feel like, powerless almost. And then to feel like, then have a bunch of feelings about my feelings of powerlessness where it's like, I'm not powerless. I know I'm not, but I don't want it bad enough to like, get it. And we keep convincing ourselves that motivation is the problem. And like, sometimes motivation is the problem. But like, a lot of the times it is that like, shame factor that's holding us back because we're not doing things because we love ourselves and think that we deserve good things. We're doing stuff because we, I'm saying we, like very liberally. This is obviously not every person with ADHD's experience. I think that there are lots of people who have had plenty of therapy and are, you know, aware of their own stuff. But for many of us, prior to getting help, to kind of take ourselves out of that mindset of I Am broken. I am wrong. I am not doing things right. I am not doing enough. I am not enough. And. And it takes a lot of work to step back and look at it and say, there's a reason I'm struggling. If I could figure out the reason that I could solve for. And the reason isn't just me. Like, I think that's the self blame part of like, I am the problem. It's like, nope, this is the problem. This right here is the problem. You are not the problem.
- [23:52]
B
Yeah, because often it's just like, oh, there's some disconnect in one of the steps. And if I just fix that one little issue. I know my wife was having really a ton of trouble cleaning this one room. And I'm like, oh, I just need to get this one thing. She's like, oh, let me pick this up thing. And then like three hours later she's like, I need you to help me stop cleaning this room.
- [24:11]
A
I feel that in my bones. It's like, oh, no, I've started. I can't stop. But then you do that or you do the thing where it's like, I start. I started cleaning and I'm really excited because I'm deep cleaning and I've been meaning to deep clean, but I took all this stuff down right in order to do it and now I've run out of steam. And I look around and it's dirt. It's messier than it was when I started because I started reorganizing and now it's like, oh, well, I've destroyed it. And now I need to go to bed and I get up tomorrow, now there's like even bigger mess.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah. You're like, man, I. I made a huge mistake here.
- [24:44]
A
Yeah, I've made a huge mistake.
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B
So did not think this through.
- [24:47]
A
Well, and it's one because you want to know. I have a theory about why we leave. Spaces kind of get messier and messier until it reaches like an. All of us have different anxiety thresholds of at what point is my brain go enough, you know, and like has to do something about it or panic cleaning because people are coming over or something like that. Which is again, shame motivation. But there's a certain level where I'm like, okay, I gotta do something about this. It's often because, like, I can't focus. It is so messy in here that I can't focus and I need to focus. And also, what a convenient excuse for me to now not focus on the thing. Cause I have a new thing to Focus on. So it's like, I wanna clean as procrastination or procrastina cleaning or now it's gotten bad enough that it feels like a project. And I will get brain chemicals from the before and after because I get to look at it and go, oh, I'm so proud of myself. Cause I don't get proud of myself for, like, t. I didn't used to. Proud of myself for tidying up for three minutes. That does not feel like an achievement. But going from messy to clean feels like an achievement and therefore is much more interesting to my brain.
- [25:54]
B
Yeah, I remember seeing the celebrating small wins in the discouraged category.
- [25:58]
A
Yes. And it's like, finally hung up that poster and not just had a bunch of posters just rolled up in the corner. Like, I'll get a frame for that eventually. Biggest lie I tell myself I'll go buy frames. And then it's like, if. Even if I get the frame, it's like putting. Buying a frame for something, putting it up instead of leaning it against the wall. There's all these, like, little teeny steps. And so I had a thing for, like, this thing I was working on called Struggle Busters that had how to blank when you don't feel like it. And one of the things was like, hang shit up. Because it's secretly, you're like, I don't want to do this wrong. I have to pick the right place. I have to. I have to make sure it's straight or, you know, I don't have the tools to do it. Like, there's all of these little tiny little obstacles that get in the way. And so being able to learn how to. To spot those obstacles. And this goes back to the, like, introspection thing of this is practice. Like, it takes practice over and over again to get really curious when something, quote, unquote, like, fails because you are able to stop. And like, when you troubleshoot over and over again, you're making, like, an operating manual for your brain of, like, when this happens, we do this. When I can't remember to do something, I put a sticky note on my phone and I don't let myself take it off my phone until I've done that thing. Even if it's annoying, Right? Like, it is the sticky note lives on my phone until this thing is done. And as soon as I break that rule, this won't work anymore. So the rule is like, I know once I let myself off the hook once, this will be poof. This strategy will no longer work. And so in order to do that, it means I can't use it often because if I use that strategy super often, the higher the likelihood that I'm going to cave and not do that. And so there are certain things where I realize because I know from prior experience if I do something too many times, my likelihood to like, you know, cut myself slack and break the rules is higher. And so it's similar to like the treat yourself kind of like activity in the unmotivated section where I will bribe myself with like magic packs, booster packs, and put a little post note on it. That's like after I do this thing, I get this pack, I bribe myself again like I'm a kid and it totally works. And people go, well, how do you just not open the packs? And I go, because I know when I do that once, this will be dead to me and I can't use this anymore. And I like using it. And I, but I. It's. Know thyself.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's very much like, yeah, if, like how do you do it? It's like, well, if, if I didn't, it would be worthless and I don't. And I want it to have worth.
- [28:42]
A
Yeah. That I don't have discipline. Like I say, I quote. Yeah, I keep, I keep air quoting. Um, but I feel like I don't have discipline. But stuff like that does require a certain level of like making an agreement with yourself. Because I think the reason why so much of this is hard is we don't trust ourselves because we make promises to ourselves and then we break those promises or we make promises to other people and then we break those promises. And so we don't think of ourselves as reliable and other people or we fear that other people think that we're unreliable because we don't often do the things we say we're going to do or we don't do the things we tell ourselves we're going to do. So it's like, why should you have to build that self trust back? And part of that is by not asking too much of yourself and not like, like to be like lower your expectations. But when you, when you lower the bar, like significantly lower the bar for what you are expecting yourself to do. A, you are going to reach what that thing is and so you don't feel like you failed. But everything beyond that is like, I'm a rock star who did way more than I had to and that makes me feel good versus if my bar for what I expected was like way way higher up. I. Anything less than that, like I Could do the same amount of work and I wouldn't feel excited about it. Now, that might not. Again, that might not work for everybody. Because, you know, some people think, well, if I lower my bar, that I'm going to be okay with accepting less. And it's like, well, is having that super high bar working for you right now, or is it just making you feel bad about yourself? Because if it's just making you feel bad about yourself, then maybe try something else. If it is working, like, by all means, continue. You know, continue on. I can't.
- [30:23]
B
Yeah.
- [30:23]
A
I'm happy for you, man.
- [30:25]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That is really often a funny thing where you're like, well, I don't want to do that because that wouldn't work. It's like, well, is what you're doing working?
- [30:32]
A
Yes.
- [30:32]
B
And too often people are like, well, no, but it's. If I just did X, it's like, well, you're not, though.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah.
- [30:39]
B
We have to live in reality.
- [30:41]
A
The biggest lie that I tell myself is, like, is that spending money on things will make me stuff. Because sometimes it works, like, right away, and then sometimes it doesn't. But I feel like I have the same problem as when I go, like, to Barnes and Noble and I'm like, I am gonna buy eight books and read none of them, versus if you go and you buy, like, one book and, you know, you decide on, like, one thing. And I think that that, like, biting off more than I can chew because I'm over ambitious is, again, a trend that I've got in my life. Because if one thing is good, eight things is eight times good. What could go wrong?
- [31:14]
B
Little dopamine is like, ooh, I'm gonna get this one and this. And I feel so good at the time.
- [31:18]
A
Yes. I have. I have a new strategy. You can't take me to a Barnes and Noble. Like, it is a. It is a running joke in my family that, like, you can't. You can't let Danny into a Barnes and Noble or, like, take everything away, you know, take away my phone, take away everything. Like, I just. I can't help it. I found out this strategy that I kind of, like, made up for myself where I take pictures, like. Cause I'll see a book, and I'm like, I want this. This looks so good. And I'll just grab it and carry it around. And then by the end of it, it's like I'm carrying around all these books. So I'm gonna buy them because I'm not gonna go put them all back and what I've started doing is I will take a picture of the front cover of the book on my phone, and then I will walk to the next thing. I'll take a picture, and then at the end when it's like, time to go or time to check out, I go, are there books in my head that I am, like, thinking to myself, oh, I want to make sure I go grab that, and then I will go back and get that book. And then the other books that I don't, I have a little album on my phone called Books to Read. And I add those so that I can remember to either, like, look them up later to, you know, get them from the library, or if I want to, you know, go back to a Barnes and Noble. Want to, like, check it out later, you can. But, like, I feel like that I'm going to forget that this book exists is one of the reasons why I want to buy it. So I found now that, like, the if you document also feels good to my brain. Not, you know, and I technically have just as much value as, like, buying it and not reading it. Yeah.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah. Well, because it's often so much this, like, FOMO of, like, I'm gonna miss out if I don't. Yeah. It's like, well, I'm gonna also miss out if I buy it and never look at it again.
- [32:50]
A
Yes. And I'm like an audiobooks person. So, like, getting the physical copy is like having, like a trophy. You know, it's like the. But I. I use them as, like, decoration. So I do. I do justify to myself that, like, well, at least it'll look really good on my shelves. But, like, how to read, how to do stuff when you don't feel like it. A lot of people think that that only means tasks that are, like, unpleasant and. Or that they have to do. And it's like, no, I can't get myself to do hobbies. I can't get myself to read. Like, I can't get myself to do things that, like, I do want to do. And. Cause my attention span is shot. So it's like, well, I could be doing this or I could be watching TikTok. And I feel like we've gotten so easily, you know, And I feel a certain way when people are always talking about how short are everybody's attention spans have gotten. But it is true, because I just don't get the same level of brain chemies from reading a book or, like, reading a story as I do watching. Watching a story sometimes, you know, and so I Have to like, how do I get myself to do this thing that I know I like doing? That's one of the things that the end of Planner can also do is to people don't think about using it to do hobbies. But like things that bring you joy are also important. It's not just about. Here's how to force yourself to do stuff that you hate.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, I remember doing a like online co working session and the person's like, I'm gonna be crocheting and watching a TV show during my session because I don't do that enough. And I'm like, fantastic. Use time. That's amazing.
- [34:26]
A
What are there things that you particularly are like repetitively struggle with as far as. For me, like, communication is really difficult. I suck at replying to texts. It is a known thing. Like I have. I, I think the highest, I think the highest I got up to was like almost like 700 unread texts. Once you get to those numbers, it's so like intimidating and everything feels like a tiny little obligation. And yeah, are there things like that that you would just find yourself replying to?
- [34:59]
B
Emails is definitely one of them. Like, I have. I, I do do some like email debt forgiveness where I'm just like, well, bankruptcy. I can't. I'm not gonna respond to anything after this date because. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [35:15]
A
If.
- [35:16]
B
I mean it feels so bad when I'm just like, man, I. It's not even hard to reply to some of them. Like, I'm like, oh, this took like two seconds. And I'm like. But it's just for whatever reason, my
- [35:25]
A
brain's like, no thousand percent. I don't. I hate emails also because. And, and some of it was like, I want to make sure that I reply in like the perfect way so that I don't accidentally come off the wrong way. And then for a while there it was like. But then I was replying to everything with exclamation points and that's apparently bad, you know.
- [35:43]
B
To exclamation point. Yeah, smiley emoji.
- [35:47]
A
That's what I do. And then I got this thing in my head about why I shouldn't be doing that, which is so dumb. Like I should not be. I'm like self judging myself based off of other people's judgments when like, I don't care. And I love when people give me exclamation points and emojis because I'm like, oh my God, you're not mad at me. And so, you know, but there's A lot of like, self judgment or the perfectionism that comes with that. But I find that. Which is, interestingly enough, I don't know if you've gotten to it yet. So in the perfectionism section, there is an activity called Inbox sprit, and it is about answering emails as fast as you can. And so it's got like the, like a 10 by 10 grid. And you know, I say, like, use a pencil or erasable pen so you can like reuse it, but it's got numbers one through a hundred. And it's like if you've got, if you're like, I want to try and answer 40 emails. You know, you put a little thing by the 40 and you set a timer and you see how fast you can reply, how fast you can reply to 40 emails. And you check off each little, each little inbox. Like, each little email that you answer or archive or delete is a little box. And so you get the brain, I keep saying brain chemicals, but like, you get the satisfaction of, of crossing something off. Like that little micro hit of achievement. And so then you get to the end and the challenge makes it interesting and novel, but the time crunch makes it. So I don't spend 40 minutes writing an email. I cannot tell you how many times I'm like, I will make this the most beautiful, like, best formatted email anybody has ever seen. And it doesn't matter, but my brain convinces me, like, it matters so much that this is the like, easiest to understand thing anybody has ever seen.
- [37:28]
B
Yeah. You'll spend like 40 minutes and then you'll get reply. Sounds good.
- [37:31]
A
Yes.
- [37:31]
B
And you're like, oh my God, that's what I wanted. But also I hate it.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah. And I'm at the point now where it's like, I've got like a hundred and like over a hundred thousand people on my mailing list, which is ridiculous. But, like, I don't send emails. I simply pay a ridiculous, like a ridiculous amount of money to hold this many emails and to be able to send out an email every six months telling people something. But like writing emails to reply to people and writing emails to like a bunch of people, like the I. And I like writing, so. And I love talking to people. It's like the asynchronous thing versus being in person, where it's like, cool, I'm in the moment. Like on a podcast interview, on a FaceTime call, on a phone call. I'm in the moment. I'm here, I'm doing it, I'm communicating. This is great. And then I'm done. And then you walk away, and you can move on to the next task. It's not something that follows you around all day, like an email thread or a, you know, text message.
- [38:27]
B
Writing's another one of those things where it's like, I need to do it regularly because I used to do a lot of monologue episodes for the podcast. And then I kind of like, shifted to doing more interviews, but I'm like, I want to do more monologues again. And then I'm like, I started writing earlier this year. I'm like, I really like this. I need to do this more. Like, I need this.
- [38:47]
A
I have such a hard time. Monologuing is fun. I would do that occasionally where it's like, oh, I wanted to do, like, get ready with me things. Like, I tried to do, like, a TikTok live one time, I think, and, you know, they do their makeup and. And talk. I cannot multitask like that. I will simply start talking and just not do makeup. Like, I can only do one or the other. I have no idea how these people do both. But then I. I'll, like, record this big, long thing, and then I don't do anything with it. And I realized that what would be awesome would be to just, like, take that monologue and get a transcript from it and then turn that into something versus, like, sitting down and trying to think, like, what do I want to write today?
- [39:28]
B
And you get these so many places where, yeah, that's the, like, the stuck. And I'm like, oh, the way I get unstuck for writing is I pretend I'm not writing and I'm writing about writing. And I just, like, do like, a little pre write thing. I'm like, what am I going to write about? And I'm like, I'm gonna write about these things, and these are the ideas I want to do. And then, like, that just, like, warms me up and gets me into it.
- [39:45]
A
Yeah, because you're going in with the, like, lowest. So there's. There's a thing in the book in the stuck section called, like, task adjacency, which is like, if you can't get yourself to do your dishes, stand in front of your sink and turn on the sink. Like, in front of your dishes and turn on the sink. And you're like, I'm gonna stand here for a minute and. And just let the water go. I don't have to do the dishes, but I'm standing here with. And you'll get so bored that you will like start doing the dishes. Right. Or like I don't have to go to the. I want to go to the gym. Or like I used to go swimming. Right. Much more frequently than I do now. And it was winning looks like putting on my swimsuit underneath my clothes and getting in the car with like with my stuff. Like I technically, technically don't have to go to the gym. I. What my bar is, you know, I was talking about like putting the bar on the ground. The bar is having my swimsuit underneath my clothes and getting in my car. And there have been like two times where I've done that and gone, you know what? Like, no, like not, not right now. I did my thing and I'm not. But the majority of the time, once you put yourself in the environment with everything you need and it's like the hard part's over, you've ripped off the band aid.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah. You just need to build that little bit of momentum and Yeah, I do think that is very important though that you have that like. Yeah, you know what? That momentum didn't happen. I'm going to go back.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah. And I still won because the thing that I made what the winning like make your win con easier. Make the thing that winning looks like easier. And it's something that takes again a lot of practice. And I think that the self forgiveness on top of like the anti shame that like so much of the book is like, hey, even here's how to speed clean your place. You know, go around with the trash bag and just throw away all of the trash and in all of the areas of your home, go around and grab all of the dishes from all of the areas and put them in your, you know, thing and then go around and grab all of the clothes and put all of the clothes anywhere in your hamper and. And then there's like some other stuff. It's like if that's all you get done, that is such a win. Or even if you just do one of those things, like that is such a win. Because the alternative was like not doing anything. And anything is better than nothing.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah. And I think that's so important for people to internalize is like anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. You don't need to do it. Amazing.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah. I mean I say that and it's like anything I don't care about is worth doing poorly. Anything. As soon as I try to do something I do care about poorly, my brain's like, ah, you definitely were. I'm just fill it with fire.
- [42:24]
B
Yeah. If I tried to Put like my pre writes out, it's like, well, I did that poorly. And yeah, well, just, I'll just record that. And I'm like, no, never. That would. People don't need to see that part of my brain.
- [42:35]
A
Yeah, I think that there's so much for the, like, the thing that I picked up from Kate, who was a consultant that I was working with, I really loved working with, was the concept of a first draft, worst draft. And so instead of just calling something first, like first draft, you know, or some people say like shitty first draft or whatever it is, if you label your first version of something with the word like worst draft, and it gives me like permission to let it be bad because I literally titled it at the top. First draft, first draft. And so it takes that intimidation factor away. And I think so much of what helps me because intimidation is like my biggest thing. Even being intimidated by things that are not that big of a deal because it feels like this big fire breathing dragon and it's gonna, you know, be so hard. And then once you're in it and you're able to be like, I just have to make a bad version of this and then I will tweak that bad version because then I won't have the empty page problem. And so there's sometimes that I've got people who are like, hey, do you want me to write like a really bad version of this? And then you could go in and change everything about it. And so if you're having, if you have like an important thing to do and you've got a friend that's like, I will write, I will spend 15 minutes writing a bad version of this for you. Like, I do like task swapping also, which is where you like do something that is for someone else, which is infinitely easier than doing something for yourself. And so it's like, can we trade tasks? And so writing bad first draft is something for someone just so you can hand it back and you go, oh, I didn't know what I want. I know I don't want this, but this made me realize what I do want. And then you, then it's easier because you're like, well, I'm not sending that, but I will send this.
- [44:21]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Because it is like that. Like, oh, I didn't know what I want. But yeah, it is really not this. This is so bad.
- [44:29]
A
I feel like a bad client. When I was like a designer and they, you like ask what they want and they don't know what they want until they see something and they're like, not that. And I'll know it when I see it, which is difficult.
- [44:39]
B
Yeah, that's. That's very difficult to design for.
- [44:41]
A
Yes. But that's the same thing with, like, the perfectionism. What makes it hard to stop. So, like, I. There is a. There is a thing that, like, clicks into place when I. When I get something and I'm, like, crushed. It don't need to work on it anymore. That's what I wanted. Like, I feel good about it. I can walk away and, like, and it's done until I get that click feeling. And I'm familiar with what that click feeling feels like. If I'm not having the click feeling, it's not done. And especially if I care about, like, it's not done until I can look at it and don't have any criticisms left for it. And that's how my brain is. Is, like, I will sit there and critique my own stuff and critique my own stuff and critique my own stuff, because then no one else. And I realize this is a coping mechanism so that no one else can criticize me because good luck being harder on me than I am on myself.
- [45:31]
B
Yeah. And then someone does point something out,
- [45:33]
A
and you're like, no, yeah, that doesn't happen to me. I'm just kidding. Being able to kind of, like, get to a point where I'm. The perfectionism thing is fear. It is like, fear and a little tuxedo and fear of failure. But fear of judgment. Fear of judgment for myself or judgment from other people. And not doing my best feels like a crime. Like, I am the, like, do your. You know, just do your best. I'm like, I will do my best. And I have been told I was a hashtag gifted kid and I will meet my potential. And everyone expects a lot from me because in the past, I have done awesome stuff. And that means that everything I make has to be awesome, because otherwise they'll know that I'm not trying.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah. My best means I'm gonna work until I am.
- [46:23]
A
The wheels fall off.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah. There's nothing left. And it's like, oh, I just meant just do a good job. It's like, that's not what you said. You said, do your best, which is very clearly a different thing.
- [46:33]
A
Yes. And I think that the biggest back to the pick, picking my battles thing is that picking my battles as to what I will let myself be perfectionistic about because I care about it that much or the stakes are that high. So, like, writing an email to, you know, a list of a Hundred thousand people is a lot of pressure. And being perfectionistic about, like, delivering bad news like that anti planner was like, running behind because I decided, because I was being perfectionistic about it. And I had it paid. I had a spread, like a Truth or dare spread that I was like, this is one of the last ones I have to do. And I couldn't get myself. It was this. It's this page. And I couldn't. I couldn't get the lettering right. And then I stumbled into a lettering style that I was like, oh, my God, I love this. I love this. And then I looked at the rest of the book and I go, but now this is better than the other stuff. So now I need to redo the other stuff to match. Because at this point, I'd had like 10,000 pre orders, like, or like, like 15,000 pre orders. So I knew it was going to get big. And I'm like, if everyone's going to see this, I need to make it as good as I can. And so then I went through and I used this coloring style for, like, the whole book. And I made. I made so much more work for myself. And I'm. I mean, I'm happy I did. The book turned out way better because of it. But I had to send out an email telling people that it was going to be later than I expected. And I never really did pre orders. I had never done Kickstarter before, you know, and I didn't do it through Kickstarter. So, like, I was just very unfamiliar with the fact that, like, a lot of pre orders run behind. Like, most. Most pre orders are from people who didn't know how long it was going to take. And so I didn't know that was normal. But I spent. So I spent like eight hours writing this one email. But the stakes were very high. And so that was one of the things that's like the. Because how I deliver this news will impact if people are like, screw you, I want my money back, or, oh, my God, like, you're totally fine. And I spent a lot of time making sure that I explained to people that, like, exactly, like, exactly what happened. This is the conundrum I find myself in. And then I feel, like, scared and anxious and ashamed, like, just being really upfront about it. But that, that is not the same because I've done that because I got hundreds of replies of people like, this is the best email I've ever read. And I go, cool. No pressure for me for future emails. And so it's like, if I crushed it out of the park. It feels like everything I do from that point forward, like I don't want to have peaked. And same thing with the anti Planner. It's like everyone, like everyone, but most people that I've talked to, it's got like 4.9 stars on like TikTok shop. It's got a lot of people who love it and I'm like, did I peak everything that I released from now on? It's like it's going to be measured against this. I'm going to measure against this. And so if it's not great, I don't want to follow it up with something. It feels like the sequel, the sequel is always not as good as the original. And so I'm like, what if I just never made a sequel and just worked on a bunch of different sequels and then never released them and just wasted a bunch of time making stuff and not releasing it?
- [49:39]
B
You know, I've seen some people that
- [49:41]
A
are better, so that's true. Shrek 2 is a delight. The first one's still classic, but anyway, I feel that the perfect. I, I've talked about perfectionism so much but I, I do know that a lot of people don't realize that so many people with ADHD have it because again, that fear of criticism and that fear of making mistakes is just like, I will make this so good. And also I need praise in order for my self worth to like live is how it was for a long time where I'm like, I need external validation in order to feel good about myself. And that can be such a challenge because when you don't get that, that's when you end up in the discouraged section of I'm feeling insecure because I'm not getting that validation. So like learning to give yourself the validation is definitely a challenge.
- [50:31]
B
Yeah. And yeah, there is just so much stuff in here that is really good. And as you know, as we talked about beginning, it's, you know, all the. Every day is going to be a different challenge for us often. Or maybe not every day, but at least every week.
- [50:46]
A
Yeah. And it's. Sometimes it's the same thing, sometimes it's different.
- [50:49]
B
So I was wondering if you had any final thoughts that you wanted to leave the audience with.
- [50:53]
A
The main thing that I try to get across to people all the time is that like you are not lazy. Like I hate the word lazy. I hate it so much. And it's very easy to slap that label on other people who are not meeting expectations. It's so easy to slap on yourself when you feel like you're not living up to your own expectations or other people's expectations. Taking the I have a personal defect. I have a character flaw. Same thing goes with adhd as with, you know, struggling with productivity is just if you are able to kind of become much more objective and zoom out. What's the thing that they say with like Headspace, the app, Andy? You know, it says like, it's the difference between like being out in a thunderstorm and feeling all of the wind and all of the rain and being inside behind, behind a window watching a thunderstorm. And if you are able to sort of find some of that objectivity, it is what causes that self compassion. Because you can see, like, not just be like, I'm a person struggling. It's like, I see a person struggling and if this was my friend, what would I say to them? Because there's no way I'm going to be as mean to my friend as I am to myself. So be nice to yourself. And that's easier said than done, but it goes a long way.
- [52:05]
B
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. There's so much in here and I'm sure a lot of people are going to be like, I think I need this book.
- [52:11]
A
Oh yeah, you can get it. AntiPlanner.com awesome.
- [52:18]
B
Thanks again to Danny for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. If it sounds like something you're interested in, be sure to go check out the Antiplanner, which you can find@anti-planner.com before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of Today's top tips. 1. We often beat ourselves up for failing to use a planner reliably after three months, but the reality is that our brain stops responding to the same stimuli once the novelty wears off. Instead of trying to find one system that you'll just use forever, you can instead try to build a toolbox of multiple strategies for the right situations. 2. Executive dysfunction isn't a monolith. It's a collection of specific emotional roadblocks, such as being intimidated, overcommitted, or paralyzed by perfectionism. Approaching every task with a standard to do list is like trying to use a hammer on a screw. It's the wrong tool for the specific resistance you're facing. By identifying the specific flavor of your resistance first, you can choose a tool designed to dismantle that example exact barrier you're facing. 3. Many of us have spent a lifetime using mean self talk as a primary motivator, because getting in trouble was the only thing that worked in the past. However, shame is a paralyzing emotion that can actually increase avoidance. Shifting to an objective engineering mindset allows you to view a failure not as a character flaw, but as a data point. Asking why did this fail? Instead of why am I like? This allows you to troubleshoot the system rather than blaming yourself. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like for links or to read this episode's transcript. You can find the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 277 and if you'd like even more hacking your ADHD be sure to sign up for my new newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, or anything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. Also, be sure to check out the Hacking Radhd Patreon. It's a pay what you want model, meaning all levels of the Patreon get the same thing and you'll be getting early access to all the episodes and behind the scenes exclusive videos. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingradiohd.com Patreon to sign up and you can check out our discord@hackingradiohd.com discord and finally, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find@YouTube.com hackingyradhd and finally, if there's another way you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show. Especially especially if you think a particular episode resonates with them. Just click the share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of dad. Yesterday I saw an ad that said radio for sale $1 volume stuck on full. And I thought, man, I can't turn that down.