Podcast Guest/Interviewer (2:52)

Tell me a little bit about yourself.

William Curb (2:53)

And like how you got here.

Katie McPhee (2:55)

I'm Katie. So right now what I do is I help women become VPs. That's my big like mission in the world. I'm very passionate about closing the gender gap. But I had an 18 year corporate career, so I was a former exec myself. I was a director of VP and evp. And I would say like my journey to the top was not a straight line. It was definitely not like a rocket ship to the top. There's a lot of struggles. I got stuck as a manager, I got stuck as a director. I had undiagnosed ADHD at this time. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 4, 43. So after I left my corporate career. And so I want to help other people and other women to, to make that transition hopefully more seamlessly than I did because I really do believe that once you learn, you know, certain rules and frameworks, it does become a lot easier.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (3:45)

And I do think that's a such a important point for people to know is that it's not about. Because everyone to get to that level needs to learn certain skills. But with neurodivergence you just need different skills.

Katie McPhee (3:59)

Yes. And that's the thing. It's. I think that part of it was that because I had undiagnosed adhd, I just assumed I didn't have my shit together. Like I just looked at executives who seemed like they were always on time, they seemed so organized. And I was already kind of struggling in middle management and so I was like, I just don't think I'm. I'm just not these people. Like they're just so different from me. And I thought that meant that maybe I didn't belong or I didn't deserve to be there. Right. Because like all the shame and all that stuff. But interestingly, what I found out was then when I did finally land a VP role, things actually got easier for me because I had resources. Like I was no longer managing a bunch of junior people. Like I had administrative support. And so a lot of the things I really struggle with actually got taken off my plate. And so that was like a really Great surprise. Like, I did not know that was going to happen. And so I actually found that life got a little easier when I got to the VP and EVP level, because a lot of the. The administrative things that I had to do as a middle manager, I no longer had to do.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (5:10)

Yeah, that's such a fantastic point with that. Yeah. It's. A lot of ADHD struggles just kind of disappear when you have the support that you need. It's not. You don't see people with ADHD like, just thriving, doing the things they're bad at.

Katie McPhee (5:26)

I actually love that you said that, because one of the things I always say to people is, don't focus on trying to improve your weaknesses. Right. Like, I feel like I tried to do this for years. I don't know about you, but, like, there's this whole thing, like, do you focus on your strengths or do you try to improve your weaknesses? And I think for a lot of years I thought, I'm weak in these areas. Like, I've got to get better at them. And my advice for people now is, like, figure out how to just not do those things if you possibly can. Like, sometimes we have to do things that we're not good at, but if you can possibly just not do that, work in your personal life, in your professional life, and either outsource it or automate it, or, like, get a tool or, you know, whatever, life becomes a lot better.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (6:06)

Yeah. Because it's not about turning the weakness into a strength. It's just making it, you know, bearable.

Katie McPhee (6:12)

Yeah. I have my own business. I think the reason I love it so much is I just don't do the stuff I suck at anymore. Like, I just have people to do that, and I get to spend time doing things I'm actually good at, which is more fun and more effective.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (6:28)

Yeah. And it makes you feel a lot better about yourself when you can admit, like, yeah, I'm just not good at this, and that's okay. But there are people that are good at this.

Katie McPhee (6:40)

Yeah, they're good at it and they like it. I always give this example that one of the things I used to hate doing when I was in my corporate job was expense reports. I had a sales career, and so I would travel a lot, and I had to do a lot of expense reports, and. Which meant, like, taking all of these receipts, like, adding them all up and categorizing them, and, like, sometimes changing the currency. This is, like, painful for me. Like, I would put it off and I never wanted to do it. And finally One day I had this woman on my team who was, like, an administrative person, and I was able to hand this off to her. And I felt so bad because I was like, this is such a crappy task. Like, I. I felt guilty handing it off to her. And then one day we were talking, she was like, oh, I love Thursday afternoons because I do your expense reports. And, like, I thought she was joking. I thought she was, like, sarcastic. And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. She's like, no, no. Like, literally, I love it. Like, I put on my headphones, I spread everything out on the desk, and I, like. I do it. And like, to me, that it seems crazy because this. This would be like, pure torture for me, but she actually loved doing it. She's a very organized person, probably neurotypical. And. And so something that I hated was something that she loved. And so that kind of actually really changed my perspective around, like, what's a crappy task to me might actually be something you love to do.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (7:56)

Yeah. And I think that is something that is one of the reasons is it's so hard for neurodivergent people to give away tasks because they, like, they dread them so much. And so the idea of giving that to someone else is like, this feels bad.

Katie McPhee (8:10)

Yeah, right? You feel like. Kind of like you feel like a jerk handing off this. This work. And then you find out that, yeah, this is just really hard and crappy for me, but other people don't mind doing it at all. So I think that's the beauty of. I leave them, like, life. Right. Like, I think about, like, even at home, my partner and I, there's some things I hate doing. He does not really mind doing them. There are certain things that he doesn't want to do that I don't mind doing. So it's like, if you just get honest about that, life can be better.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (8:39)

Yeah. Well, and it makes a. It makes it also interesting when you have the ideas. He's like, oh, yeah, we're going to try and, like, you know, have this, like, equal workload. But it's like, it really depends on how much you like your tasks, what makes it equal. And then you can be like, oh, you know, I. Because I have a tendency to be like, oh, I want to, you know, be extra sensitive to the fact that, you know, that I should be taking on my amount of work. So I'm going to take on the worst tasks. But sometimes that's not. I'm not thinking about what's the worst task for the other person I'm thinking about what's the worst task for me.

Katie McPhee (9:07)

So my husband is neurotypical. And so that's also something that's. That's just, like, interesting. There's certain things that he's just going to be better at doing. Right. Like, when it comes to when we go on trips, like, he's the guy that organizes all the stuff. He's the reason if I make it out the door on time, like, often he has played a role in that. Right. He's. I come down and I'm like, shoot, I gotta make a coffee before I go. And he's like, here you go. He's like, already made it. I was just like, thank you. That's his role. Whereas, like, I. I do other things that, you know, make our life more fun or, you know, add to it in other ways. And, yeah, it just works out.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (9:45)

Yeah, that's. It's the partnership there, and it's. It's the same thing with, you know, the business side. Yeah, you go. Each part does what's best for them.

Katie McPhee (9:56)

I do even wonder, and, you know, it's a good point that I do think there is an element of it that is, like, a neurodivergent thing. Even thinking about. After I was. I was diagnosed, I got more serious about having a really structured morning routine, because I find that really just helps me to show up as the person I want to be. And before that, I always felt too guilty asking for it. Like, I knew I should work out in the morning, but I always felt guilty saying, like, oh, do you mind if I go work? You know, we had a younger kid at the time. When I thought about it, you know, my partner would be like, hey, I'm gonna go work out. Like, you just do it if you wanted to. He wasn't thinking like, oh, is she okay? Like, he was just like, yo, I'm gonna go do this thing. And so finally, like, it was only after getting diagnosed that I felt that I could ask for that. And I actually wonder how much of that does come with, like, just all the baggage, if you want to call it that.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (10:53)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's so much baggage that we have from adhd, where we're being like, we don't know what we don't know. And so we're like, oh, we're making all these assumptions about what other people want and how we're supposed to do, how society is supposed to work and what we're supposed to ask for and what we're not supposed to ask for. And then what? Holding onto all the times that we've been told that what we're doing is wrong. And so we're like, oh, we're just going to be going to tamp that down and try and make it easy for everyone else.

Katie McPhee (11:18)

Yeah, it's so true. And I think when we carry this into, like, I work with a lot of women who are climbing the corporate ladder and trying to get to that next level, I think we often bring that into our work as well. Right. Where we were, like, kind of on an island.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (11:34)

And I can imagine that makes it so much harder in a leadership position where you're not sure if, like, oh, should I be asking this person to do this thing? Makes it hard.

Katie McPhee (11:43)

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. One of the big topics that I like to talk about is delegation. And first of all, giving yourself permission to not hold on to it all and allow it to be done imperfectly even sometimes. I think some of us who grow up with adhd, I think whether it's diagnosed or not, we do adopt some of these perfectionist tendencies. Right. Where we want to please everyone. We want, you know, everything to be good. We've received so much negative feedback in the past. You know, I do think that that can be such a disadvantage because we're like, I'm just gonna do it myself. They're not gonna do as well as I can, or I can get this done faster. One thing you're kind of holding yourself back is you can't spend your time on the right things for doing everything. But two is just like a recipe for burnout.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (12:30)

I mean, I was talking to someone yesterday, and they're talking about. They have a. For their, like, social media. They're like, yeah, we have an intern doing this. I can't be the person that checks what they're doing. I have to have someone else check. You know, like, just do the, like, the quick once over. Because if I look at it, I'm going to go, oh, here's all the things we need to fix. Just like. And it's not worth my time. These are, like, shorts we're putting up. It's not something we should be doing, but. Or I should be doing, but. So my role has to be to not look at it.

Katie McPhee (12:58)

Yeah, it's so true. I mean, I've noticed this too. Just. Just growing a team in my business, especially because it's my. It's my voice, like, quote, my voice, my content going out into the world. And it is. Yeah, you got to really think about, like, hey, what are the things that I'm gonna let go? It's, it's my, it's gonna be 80%, it's not gonna be a hundred, but like, is that okay? Right? And I think that is, it's, it is, it's like, it's such a good exercise because, I mean, I. Part of the reason I left corporate was I did burn out because I think I wore like, I was hanging on to everything. I was like, you know, trying to do everything perfectly, trying to do everything for everybody. And, and I mean, at that time too, I would say I was not, you know, aware of, of why I was struggling in the way that I was when it came to like, ADHD and like, how it was impacting my life. And so I was like kind of self medicating with coffee in the morning and wine at night and, you know, just like hanging on by a thread. Not a recipe for like a happy, balanced life. We'll say that.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (14:05)

Yeah. But I, I do know the sense of like, yeah, if I'm make it so that I'm always busy, it gives me that motivation to always be doing stuff. And so I'm feeling productive because if I don't have that constant deadline, it's easy for me to like slip into like, oh, I'm not doing enough. And that is straight burnout.

Katie McPhee (14:23)

I think that's. That was one of the things that took me the longest to learn in my life was the value in slowing down, like personal life, professional life, but just like taking maybe even just taking time to think. And like, I'm definitely. So I'm, I'm combination, right? So I, and I certainly have some hyperactive tendencies. I find it hard to sit still. And yeah, it is tough. Like, I will sometimes mention to like, my, my partner be like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and like, watch a TV show with you. I'm not gonna get up. I'm just gonna like, chill for once. Cause like, that is a thing. He'll be like, are you ever gonna. Just like, just chill? You're gonna allow. Just, just chill for a minute. And it's tough.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (15:07)

Oh yeah, that was sick last week. And I realized I was like, oh, I'm sicker than I thought. I haven't gotten up in six hours.

Katie McPhee (15:16)

Oh, wow.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (15:16)

I just sat in this chair for six hours. The reason I got up was my dog really wanted to go outside.

Katie McPhee (15:22)

Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (15:22)

She's like, it's time. I'm like, okay. And then I'm like, oh, this hurts to move. Now I'm Like, I must be way more sick than I thought.

Katie McPhee (15:30)

It's like when we're. When we don't slow down too, our body tells us. Right. It forces us too, if we don't. If we don't rest enough.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (15:38)

I had the Apple watch for a while, and it has like the, like, mentions, like, every time you stand up and like, gives you, like, stand up 12 once for at least like a couple minutes every hour. And I'm like, that's never been a problem for me.

Katie McPhee (15:52)

It's so true. Right. Yeah. I'm definitely somebody who. I'm always doing stuff. And that's what I'll often say to people when we're talking about, I don't know people. A lot of people will struggle with doing things, just like, getting things done. I'm always like, bias for action is not my problem. That is not my problem. I will do the thing and I might do it. I might do it hastily, I might not think things through. But, like, taking action has just never been a thing that I struggle with. I think because I have so much of that energy that I like to be busy, I like to feel productive. And. And so for me, it's like literally the opposite where I have to say, okay, today I'm just gonna not do anything important or I'm gonna take two hours and think about things instead of actioning something immediately. And yeah, it's been a. It's been like a hard lesson, but so good. Like, so beneficial to life.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (16:44)

Yeah. Finding the ways to be, like, okay, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna rest, but I still need to have enough stimulation during rest that it doesn't feel stressful to be what I'm to not be doing something.

Katie McPhee (16:55)

Yeah. And ideally not grabbing my phone because, I mean, obviously, like, we. We love that infant dopamine. But I always feel, like, really crappy after, like, when I go to put it down. Like, I don't feel good about myself or the world.

William Curb (17:11)

Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (17:11)

Especially nowadays I'm like, there's nothing I'm gonna go online and see that's gonna be. Make me happy that I went online to see it.

Katie McPhee (17:18)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do truly try to curate my social media. Like, it's mostly dogs and recipes that I see. But then like, the algorithm sneaks other things in there and I'm like, I did not wanna see that.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (17:31)

Yeah. I. I've become incredibly prolific with using my block button on. Just like that person posts stuff I don't want to see blocked that just. Just like, I got. Because it is so easy for me to slip into, oh, I'm going to get the dopamine from the things that are negative that I'm reading because I can get like being upset gets to.

William Curb (17:54)

Gets my.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (17:55)

That's stimulation.

Katie McPhee (17:56)

Yes, it is. It's the same feeling. I used to think that because at one point I was in like a more toxic relationship with an ex boyfriend and that that feeling that like that emotional surge of like even arguing is like a form of like a dopamine hit. Right. I think that like, yeah, all of that stuff. I'm curious for you because I know for, for me part of my ADHD comes with like the rejection sensitivity to dysphoria. And I also am an online creator, right. And it's just an interesting mix of things to be like, I'm going to go put all this stuff out in the world. Hopefully no one says anything bad. I'm just curious how other people deal with that.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (18:43)

I use a lot of my ADHD strengths there where I forget to check the comments. But I mean there is stuff where like I will occasionally come across something and that is, it's hard. But I always try to take it with the lens of regardless of how they're saying this, they cared enough to post so that I can use that information to try and get better.

Katie McPhee (19:03)

Oh, that's good.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (19:04)

Perspective doesn't always work, but it is a healthy way for me to be like, okay, they're. If they're saying something, it's because they cared enough to post because I've seen so much stuff online. Because it's also like if you post something and get nothing, that's also like the huge rejection sensitivity. It was like, wow, I hope this was just lost in, you know, the algorithm and not just because I am that uninteresting.

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Katie McPhee (20:06)

It's so true. Well and on So I mostly post on LinkedIn and the out there have been algorithm changes but one of the things that has been always true at LinkedIn is they say you should be Engaging for around an hour, you know, around the time you post a little bit before, while, after. But depending on how things are going. Absolutely. For me, I will, I will avoid. Like, I'll be like, if it's not going well, if I'm not seeing like good results, like not even negative, I'm pretty lucky. I don't get a lot of neg. Sometimes I do and I again, I'm just like, what do I do with this? But even if it's just not getting a lot of traction, I know I should be engaging. But I'm like, no, I'm going to go do something else. I just don't want to. I am definitely someone who will just like not look at social media very much or look at my social media verdict right Then they'll end up in a rabbit hole. But I try not to pay a lot of attention to that as well.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (20:58)

It is a rabbit hole that you can go down forever and yeah, you don't feel good afterwards.

Katie McPhee (21:04)

I know one of my goals maybe will be to put limits on that. I like to make challenges for myself like every year. So one year it was like, I'm not gonna shop, I'm not gonna buy anything new. It's like secondhand was okay, but I wasn't gonna buy anything new for a year. I got till the end of November or end of October and then I broke. I like bought a sweater or something. And this year it's no Uber Eats. But I'm like, maybe, maybe next year I'll really focus on phone or maybe, maybe I'll add it to this year. But we don't wanna get too crazy.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (21:34)

A couple years ago I did a more than a couple years now I did a no signing up for online classes. Cause I knew I wasn't gonna actually follow through. I'm like, udemy, I'm gonna sign up for this. This looks like a really cool thing. I'll take the first two lessons and then forget about ever doing it again.

Katie McPhee (21:49)

I literally just signed up, like just signed up for something yesterday and I was just thinking this morning about how I'm not gonna go to it. It's true. Especially for me. So I don't know about you, but for me, if it's live, I am more likely to go like, if it's. I'd signed up for the bought online courses and things. And if it is not live, if it's just like watch the recording and then maybe you can come to like a call to talk about or whatever. I'm not, I Don't do it.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (22:19)

Yeah. There's no deadline or anything attached to it. It's just like, I could do this anytime. Exactly. Something always comes up and it's like, okay, this is what's most important now. And without that guide, it's really hard to stick to those things.

Katie McPhee (22:32)

Yeah. Yeah. This happened last year too, where I signed up for like, a parenting group because, you know, I have. He's now five, but we've been. He was four. We were struggling with just some. Lots of tantrums and things like that. And I was like, I think I need help. I have two older kids. They seem fine, but for some reason those guys, like, really tough. And so I signed up for this group and I just don't think I realized the sheer amount of like, homework and reading and videos I was gonna have to do on my own. And, like, I swear I got. We hung on for like the first couple, and then I was through with my husband. Then we were both just like, you want to skip? Like you want to. Just not. We just. Yeah. And so I was just like, I just donated this money to this person because, you know, I wasn't able to get myself to do it. And then you're falling behind. As soon as you're falling behind too, you're just like, okay, like, now it's too late. Now I can never go back.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (23:27)

Yeah, it's one of the, like, people like, oh, you should make a video course. And I'm like, I don't think I want to do that because I'm just be taking money from people for no reason.

Katie McPhee (23:36)

So I. I run a program and. But it's live for that reason because. And every coach friend of mine has said, like, you're crazy. Like, this is not a good business model. You should just record it and then you can sell so many of them and like, whatever. And I. And I'm like, I know that's like, it's probably technically better for me, but one, I've been trying to record like, a video version of. Of my program for literally six months, but I hate doing it, so I can't do it. And I just wanna offer it to the people in my community who've already been through the program. So they just have an easy access. Right. So I'm not replacing it. I just wanna create that resource for them. But. But I can't. I just like, it's. It's like honestly taking me forever. But yeah, essentially what I say to people that tell me that I'm just like, I know myself if it was live, like, when I went through my coaching certification, it was all live but two hours a week or whatever it was. And I always went. I don't think I missed one because, like, there's accountability and I got energy from the group and so, like, I enjoyed it, but I just, I know myself with anything that's like watching recordings and like, I, I assume the women that are coming to work with me, I do get more neurodivergent women, I think, than probably on average because like, like attracts like, and they're there partly for that. And I also want them to actually get the material. So, so just like you, I would feel actually kind of bad if a bunch of people were buying this and not actually doing it. So I think for me it'll be like, when I, When I don't want to do it live anymore, I'm. I'll probably probably just shut it down because I just think it's so much better for my clients. It's better for me too.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (25:15)

It is funny too, because it's like the difference here for me, I'm like, this is something I've put on my calendar and theoretically I could do the same thing with a recorded class. But then in my head I know, well, I could move that.

Katie McPhee (25:26)

Though I do put it in my calendar and I still don't watch it. I. I move it or I book something over it. I'm in a group now. It's like a business mastermind. And I really try to get to every call because they record them all. You can totally watch them after. But I know myself and I never will. The other thing is they have a whole resource library that you can go through of like, all these, like, amazing resources have never gone through it. This is my third year in it. I've never gone through it. I never will. And again, I just, like, I know myself where it's too overwhelming. Like, I just. There's so many things that my brain is just like, can't do it.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (26:04)

Yeah. It's a very interesting thing with ADHD where it's just like. Yeah. Without having that time pressure, it makes it so hard to actually get the dopamine from it because it's like, oh, I'm having this idea that I'm gonna, you know, it's a little bit of FOMO there, but it's in, in a good sense.

Katie McPhee (26:24)

Yeah. It's so true. And it is like, on the flip side, give us a high pressure situation with a deadline and we're like crushing it. So I think My, My. My career was in sales. I think that's part of the reason, Like, I just loved the. The dopamine hit of. Of I guess, bringing on a new customer or selling something. I mean, on the flip side, you get a lot of downs too, right? So it was a roller coaster, but I was. I think I was in it for the dopamine hits.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (26:52)

So is there things you do now to, like, when you don't have deadlines that you're like, kind of focus on to make sure you still working because that stuff comes up? It's all the. The important but not urgent.

Katie McPhee (27:03)

Yeah. So one of the. One of the big things. So I am a fan of time blocking. I. I do. I do create blocks of time, and I am a big fan of systems. Like, I do not rely on motivation or like, any of that. I do not rely on my brain. Like, I create systems, and then I, like, follow the rules, I guess, that I've created for myself. That's a really big part of it. The other thing is I'm like, again, I'm really lucky because I've built a small team, but I don't do the stuff I hate. So usually, like, I'm recording a podcast. I'm like, awesome. Like, I like doing that. I'm. I'm not tempted to put that off because it's something I enjoy. But a lot of the stuff I really dislike, I just. I. I don't do anymore. I don't do any of the administrative stuff. Like, the operations in my business are largely handled by other people. So I am super lucky that I get to show up and do, like, you know, I really like, like, business strategy, problem solving, that kind of thing. I like the creative aspects of, you know, doing things, like, even, like, writing my newsletter. Like, I actually enjoy sitting down and doing that. And so I create the blocks. But because my. It's a. It's a busy business, usually that deadline always feels very real to me anyways. I'm like, I got this one block. If I don't do it in this block, there's no other. That this is the only block that I can do this. So, like, I kind of like, schedule myself in that way, and it actually creates, like, almost like fake time pressure. Right? Like, it's not real. You know, I could probably move it, but because of the way I've scheduled my week, I was like, no, this is the only time I can do this. It was like, everything else is full of other stuff, and I owe it to this person on my team. So they can go, you know, do the next step. So I create. Create that fake sort of time pressure and accountability for myself. But then also, I have been really lucky to design a job where I like a lot of the stuff I do. And then I guess the third thing I think about a lot is, you know, this. I don't know if you've ever heard of this advice. The eat the frog first advice that does not work for my ADHD brain.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (29:08)

Yes.

Katie McPhee (29:09)

Yeah. There's no way in hell I'm eating the frog. Like, I don't take the shittiest thing I have to do. Like, I'm gonna do that first thing. It's like, that is not happening. So. So I. I do the opposite. And, like, what can I do that's gonna be really, like, dopamine stimulating? Like, what can I do? And so I'll typically do that stuff first. I'll do something that's I'm gonna find very energizing. And then I'll do the thing that maybe is like, you know, I don't enjoy doing as much, like, eating the frog. Right.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (29:35)

So, yeah, yeah, I. I need to, like, you know, grease the groove, get into the mode of doing things. I mean, even for, like, things I enjoy doing it. I'll be like, I don't want to start writing right now. But then, you know, I'll do a couple things around it and get myself to do it. And then I'm like, oh, I do enjoy this. I forgot.

Katie McPhee (29:53)

Yeah. Well, the other thing I do. So actually, one thing I still kind of do, I sometimes have to do that I. That I do not like to do is creating slides. So the thing I do with. And I even have a designer, but, like, I need to still create. Like, I need to figure out what content goes on it. Like, she can't pull that out of my brain for me. And so I'll just tell myself, like, okay, all you have to do is write one word on the slide. So she knows roughly what kind of design. Like, you don't have to figure it all out. You don't have to whatever, but just, like, kind of go through and just write like, like, about me. Slide. Next, like, intro the top or even, like, that really high level. And so that usually I'm like, I can do that. You know what I mean? Like, that's a low enough bar. I think it's. Again, it's the overwhelm of the idea of, like, taking it from nothing to, like, perfected slide deck. But if I just say, no, no, we don't have to finish it today. You just have to spend, like, just even 10 minutes, you know, 30 minutes of, like, just start. And then I tend to get in the groove and actually get a lot of it done once I just, like, get over that little hump.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (30:58)

I have a template I use, and it has a typo in it. I've resisted fixing it because it is something that is surprisingly good. I'm like. When I'm, like, really stuck, I'm like, I gotta go fix that. And then.

William Curb (31:09)

Okay.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (31:10)

And I'm like, oh, just that little step of, like, I did the smallest thing, and that got me going.

Katie McPhee (31:16)

Totally. And that's what I mean. Like, we need a little dopamine hit to then, like, you know, get us going on the rest of it. I have to say, also, AI has been helpful for that because I'm also. I don't know if you're familiar with the. The concept of working genius. It's like Patrick Leccioni. He's the five dysfunctions of a team author. He wrote this book Working. He's written lots of books, but he worked. Wrote a book called Working Genius I think is a little bit more recent. And the idea is that we have, like, six types of working genius. And, like, you're gonna have two that are, like, your sort of zones of genius, two that are your zones of competency, and two that are your zones of weakness and understanding what they are. And so what they are is there's wonder, invent, discernment, galvanizing, enablement, and tenacity. Okay, Those are the 6 and minor. Discernment and tenacity. Those are my zones of genius, which is why I can, like, bang out a lot of shit if I like it. I can actually get a lot done. But invent is not one of them, and wonder is not one of them. So when I have to come up with something new, that tends to be where I struggle. And so I've been able to, like, be like, how can I use AI to help me in my weak areas so that, you know, I. I can just make it a little easier on myself. And so I'll just. I will voice dictate into AI. I'll say, I want to create this workshop. These are all the things I know because I already have a lot of knowledge usually in these areas, but I'm just not necessarily good at, like, taking it from all of the stuff floating around in my brain to, like, working framework that I can share with the world. And so I'll be like, these are all the things that I know about it. This is the things that I teach. These are the types of exercises I want to do. Create a. Like, just create a flow for me, Right. Of like, a workshop. Or what if I were to put together, you know, 10 slides, what should be on each one? And it does that initial hump of like, oh, okay. Like, figuring out. And because I'm good at discernment, I can say, is this good or is it bad? Or, I mean, how do I change it?

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (33:17)

Yeah. And often you, like, look at it and you're like, this is bad, but I can see where I can make it good.

Katie McPhee (33:22)

Exactly. Like, it's enough of an idea that I'm like, oh, I'm definitely not doing this because AI will come up with some stuff. You know that it's so dramatic, too. Like, anytime my team uses AI to write copy and I look at it, I'm like, come on. I would never say this. I would never be like, let's all exhale together or something. Like some crazy. I'm like, who does chat hooky think I am?

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (33:48)

It's sincere in the worst possible ways.

Katie McPhee (33:50)

Yes. Yes. One of the words, actually, that whenever I see posts and things that use the word like such and such is quietly, you know, doing this to you or whatever. I'm always like, did chachi bt Right. That. Because whenever it tries to write something for me, it always says, like, this is quietly undermining your promotion or this is quietly whatever. I'm like, who do people talk like that? I don't know.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (34:13)

But more and more often, I'm seeing those, like, little clues that, like, oh, this was not written by a person.

Katie McPhee (34:19)

Yeah. But. But I do find that it does. Again, it helps me get over the hump if I'm really stuck, you know, it'll at least get something started so that I have enough of a, you know, a little. Enough momentum that I can do a little bit of work on it.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (34:34)

Yeah. And I think that's a great, like, callback to, like, you know, what are we good at? What are we bad at? You know, and being like, oh, yeah, we can use tools to help the things that we're bad at. And I think there are a lot of. There's a lot of potential with AI to be like, oh, yeah, these are things that.

William Curb (34:49)

It's not doing things for me.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (34:51)

It's just getting me to where I can do things.

Katie McPhee (34:54)

Yes. I think that's also. I know there's a lot of people that are afraid of, like, AI taking jobs and that type of thing. But if you look at the AI's discernment, it's not good. Like, if I say, hey, make me, you know, talk about this or create this, like, it's usually like pretty bad. And so I would never use it for that. But I do think it's good for helping, like either going back and forth to help, to ideate or giving other, you know, suggestions here or I know people who even use it, you know, people I know that maybe struggle to maybe on the side of being like, maybe too direct. And sometimes that can come across as overly harsh. They'll write an email, they'll pop it in ChatGPT and they'll be like, can you make this a little nicer before I send it to my colleague? Like, stuff like that. So I find that kind of a funny. I haven't done that myself, but I think it's. There's some fun uses we can, we can find.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (35:50)

Yeah, I've seen ones too. Is like, like Goblin Tools has some great things for like helping you, like create better to do list. Like, hey, break down these tasks to what I need to do. They ask of what, like a, like judgment. Like, if I send this text, what does. What's the implied message behind it?

Katie McPhee (36:06)

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (36:10)

Now I also love like, if I get like a wall of text email and I'm like, what is this person asking? I can't. It's too dense for me.

Katie McPhee (36:17)

Yes, it is so good for stuff like that. Even, like you can take like a transcript of a call. Be like, what were the key, what were the key points that I should know about this? Or like, let's say you were supposed to go to a call and it's a recording, you know, you're not going to watch it. You can get the transcript and pop it in, then you can pull up the key points. So, yeah, it's really good. I think it's really good for synthesizing data.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (36:40)

Yeah, you don't want it to making anything new really. But, you know, what you've got can be put together in interesting ways that can be very helpful. I'm going to try and pull us away from AI because I know I could talk about it for quite a while since I've got. I did a presentation on it last year and I'm like, oh, there's other things, but don't want to go too far in that direction. So. Yeah, I guess some of the other things that we could jump into is just. Yeah, I mean, you've talked A lot about how you also really want to support women going into these roles in leadership. And because it was, you know, something that was a struggle for you because, you know, you didn't know with undiagnosed adhd, that makes everything a struggle. But it does seem like this is something a lot of people kind of see as like, oh, I shouldn't go in this direction because of ADHD or because of these struggles.

Katie McPhee (37:33)

Yeah, well, it's interesting because, you know, I definitely think we can. We. We. There's an element of being a woman. There's an element of having adhd. There's an element when you put them together, right, where, you know, I think that one, when we think about our executive functioning and some of the challenges we have with that, especially if we don't know where it's coming from, we can start telling ourselves a story about what that means about us and our capabilities and, you know, whether we, like, belong in certain rooms. And there's often also the like. Again, if we're. If you're a woman, there's oftentimes like, an additional barrier, but there's additional challenges that. That come with that in terms of sometimes there's workplace bias or sometimes you're. You're also juggling being a single mom or whatever, right? And, you know, I often think that that middle management place is actually probably the hardest for all of that because you're just managing more of it. And oftentimes early in our careers, we get promoted because we're really good at executing, right? So if you're one of those people that you love to cross stuff off your to do list and you love to get lots done, and you have lots of energy, chances are you will get promoted to that next level, right? You will move it into, like, a manager role or a senior manager role. And that's where sometimes, like, things get really tough and people get stuck. I see most people get stuck kind of at a manager or director level. And a big part of that is if you want to move into, like, a director of VP level, you often do have to slow down. And instead of just like, doing all of the things and like, going a mile a minute and like, meeting, meeting, meeting, call, call, whatever, stopping to think, what are the most important things we should be working on? Like, what are the biggest problems in this department? How can we solve them? Like, what. What's the one thing I could do that's gonna move the needle? And. And honestly, this was the case for me. It took me years to figure out to do this because it was just so not natural for me where it got. I got my dopamine hits from getting things done and being busy and being on calls. And I had not really learned the value in, in this idea of slowing down. And, you know, the other sort of layer on that too is that in middle management, you are doing a lot of just administrative stuff, right. Like you're managing people below you. They're usually kind of junior, which means they take a lot of oversight. And you're also managing up the chain and be having to report up into that. And it's just a busy, hard role. And so we can also tell ourselves, like, if this is hard, like, there's no way that I should be trying to get that next level role. Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (40:17)

One of the things that just popped in my head too is. Yeah, that middle manager role too often reflects the same thing that people have at home where they're like their own house manager or something, where they're like, oh, yeah, I've got three kids and I've got to plan all the things that we're doing and the meals, and it's not friendly for someone that has trouble with executive function.

Katie McPhee (40:38)

Totally, totally. When I was in a VP and an EVP role, like, I loved it because for one thing, most of the people that reported to me were generally like directors. They were managing all the people stuff like, they were keeping track of, like, oh, does this person hit their metrics or did they do 10 calls today? But like, all this stuff that, like, I was not good at that detail. I never, I was like the worst at like, tracking my team's vacations, like, all of that stuff. I was like, you know, I remember actually, because my. So my background is science, and in university I did a science degree. And it was good because I really enjoyed. I mean, I switched programs three times because I have adhd, but. But I really enjoyed science. And so I, I did well in, in many of my classes, especially as I moved up and into more like, really these, like, areas of interest of mine, I could really hone in and want to learn about them. But when we had to do lab work, which you have to do when you're in science, you have to keep a lab book and it has to be, like, meticulous. I just sucked at it. Like, I worked at a lab and I remember my, my supervisor being like, where are all your notes? And whatever. And I'm like, well, I have like, the results here. He was just like. I think he was just like, what the hell are you Doing, but it just was so not natural to me. And so. And I think of it like, yeah, some of these. These jobs where you have to do a lot of this stuff, it's just. It's really hard for us. And if you're. If you're not doing it, which often that ends up being the case, then you can be really beating yourself up and telling yourself a story about what that means.

William Curb (42:12)

Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (42:12)

And it often, what it really means is often that you need different strategies to be working with and not if you're trying to, like, shove a neurotypical strategy through. Is often that's what the biggest problem is.

Katie McPhee (42:25)

Well, totally. Yeah. There's certain jobs, like, I should just never do. Like, I am glad that I realized pretty quickly, like, don't work in a lab. I didn't mind doing the experiments, but, like, keeping the notes. Like, there's no way, you know, I've thought about writing a book before. I'm like, ooh, all that research. I mean, you can outsource that maybe. So that would be the only way it would happen because, like, there's. I just can't imagine ever doing it. Like, I. Certain things like that just are not. Are not things I can get myself to do. And. And so you either need to figure out a strategy for how to do the thing or how to not do it or, you know, a tool that you can use, you know, if it is part of your job and you have no choice.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (43:07)

Yeah. Because there's always things you can do that will make it easier. But to your point earlier, too, we don't always need to be just focusing on getting the. Trying to strengthen our weaknesses because often that's never going to be as successful as trying to strengthen our strengths. Yeah.

Katie McPhee (43:25)

And I think the thing I learned through that too is, like, it shouldn't feel that hard.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (43:30)

Right.

Katie McPhee (43:30)

Like, when I was in, you know, the one role, I always. I talk about this a lot. Like, when I was a director and I got kind of stuck as a director, I was trying to get promoted for five years. I couldn't get the VP role, but, like, because of also the stage of company that it was and what was required to be successful in that role, it just, like, was not in my wheelhouse. And that wasn't obvious to me because I just didn't know what I didn't know, but, like, it was an early stage company, and so I. We were still trying to figure out the market, so I was supposed to be kind of like researching the market and understanding how to, like, Create product market fit, and, like, all of these things, and writing these, like, sales strategy documents. I was not good at that. Like, so I was probably not showing up as the best version of myself because it's just not in my wheelhouse. Whereas the next role I went into was more of a scaling stage company where I had to, like, look at. We had lots of data, and I was able to, like, look at the data and be like, ooh, I think this is where we need to focus in. We need to, like, do more of this, less of this. I had resources on my team to help with the implementation, and then I did really, really well there. And it was interesting because I was like, okay, I'm at a bigger company with way bigger targets, like, scary bigger targets, but yet I'm doing better. And it also feels way easier and feels more fun. And so I do think it's actually a good kind of, like, check in with yourself that if it really feels hard, like, if day after day it's like you're. You're really kind of like, you know, grinding away and it feels really hard, it may not be the. The perfect fit for you in terms of either the company or the job or whatever. Because it shouldn't feel that hard.

William Curb (45:08)

Yeah.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (45:08)

Often I think people with ADHD get stuck at the mentality that it should be hard because otherwise, because the things that are easy, like, some I'll do something like, oh, I wasn't productive today. Everything I did was easy. And then I was like, well, I did a ton of stuff. But just because it's easy doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

Katie McPhee (45:27)

Also, just because it's easy for you, it doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. Right. Like, we tend to look at what we're naturally strong at and discount it. But, like, what you maybe spent a day doing that was, like, quote easy, other people might find that would be like climbing a mountain for them.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (45:44)

Yeah. Or, you know, and then same goes for the other side of, like, yeah, just because something is hard doesn't mean it's the most important thing.

Katie McPhee (45:52)

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You know, and. And I think that for me, I mean, I. The company that I was at where it felt really hard, I was there for eight and a half years. Like, I was just, like, torturing myself. It's like, I have to figure it out here. You know, I almost felt like I didn't deserve to move on until I figured it out. And. And then finally, of course, I. I did move on. And I was like, oh, wow, this is really nice. Like, work feels fun and I'm pretty good at it. And it was a welcome change because, yeah, it had been eight and a half years of feeling. I mean, I can't say I felt, like, terrible the whole time. Obviously there's good and bad, but. But I had been feeling frustrated and it had been feeling hard for a little while.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (46:36)

Yeah. And in your head you're like, oh, if I just do blah, blah, blah, it'll get easy, I'll get there. And eventually you really have to just go, like, that's not going to be the solution. I need to. Something needs to change.

Katie McPhee (46:49)

Yeah. Again, sometimes. Yeah. Just giving ourselves permission to. You know, I think for me it was maybe some perfectionist stuff or maybe some, like, I don't even really know how I. How to label it, but it was like this feeling that, like, I had to get. Be successful here before I could leave. Like, I had to earn it or something. Yeah. I never, I never earned it.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (47:12)

Yeah, I can definitely see that. Like. Yeah. If. If, for whatever reason, the self talk is that this is the line and if I can't make it here, that means I won't make it anywhere else. All right. I was wondering if you had any final thoughts that you wanted to leave the audience with.

Katie McPhee (47:29)

I guess the big. The big message I always love to share is that if you have ADHD and you want to have a career where you become an executive, a VP or an AVP or a C suite executive, you can absolutely do that. Like, it is so possible. And I'll even say, I think that ADHD brains do really well in the executive suite because of our ability to make connections and, you know, connect the dots and that kind of thing. And so, yeah, I just want to. I want that message out in the world because I think oftentimes we. We discount how great we can really be because it's hard right now.

William Curb (48:05)

Yeah. Well, I think it's a great message. And thank you so much for coming on the show.

Katie McPhee (48:08)

Thank you so much for having me.

William Curb (48:13)

Thanks again to Katie for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. One, recognize when you're trying to outwork your ADHD by just doing more tasks. We don't always have to be the person doing everything. Instead, we can focus on thinking strategically about what needs to be done and focus on doing those most important things first. Two, give yourself explicit permission to stop pretending you work like a neurotypical person. You can reduce your cost cognitive load from faking it and free up energy for actually doing things the way that they work for your brain. 3. Instead of just using a calendar, use systems that help you visualize the passage of time and the weight of your commitments. Often, time blindness can hit us not only in the moment, but also while we're in the planning phase, when we don't realize how much we're really taking on. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 273 and if you'd like even more Hacking your ADHD Be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm watching, what I'm playing, or anything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is certainly going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. And I also want to make sure you know about our Patreon, which you can find@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon in the Patreon you can get early access to videos and behind the scenes exclusive content. And and there's always the Hacking youg ADHD Discord, which now you can just get access from by going to hackingyouradahd.com discord and signing up from there. And don't Forget about our YouTube channel, YouTube.com hackingyouradhd and finally, if you'd like.

Podcast Guest/Interviewer (50:16)

Another way to support the show, the best way to do so is to.

William Curb (50:18)

Tell someone about the show. Especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of dad.

Katie McPhee (50:27)

What did the zero say to the eight? Nice belt.

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