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- [00:00]
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- [01:03]
William Curb
All right, welcome to Hacking youg adhd. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have adhd. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Today I'm joined by Sky Waterson for our Research Recap series. In this series, we take a look at a single research paper and dive into what the paper says, how it was conducted, and try and find any practical takeaways. In this episode, we're going to be discussing a paper called Bullying in Students with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, analyzing student social status and student teacher relationship quality. So got a lot to talk about here and I'm sure this is going to relate to a lot of people, so let's get going with it.
- [01:41]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think before we, before we get into this, I was curious to know well, and I haven't said I'm going to ask you this question on the podcast. What was your experience in school? Like, do you, did you find it really easy? Did you struggle?
- [01:59]
William Curb
I did pretty well in school and like, I thought about this question a bit beforehand where I'm like, was I bullied? A. There was one person that did try to bully me and I just didn't respond to them and that. So it didn't work. It was like, I just, like, I don't know why that was my response, but it was just like, oh, I'm just going to pretend this person doesn't exist. And it was very effective at deterring them because they're just like, yeah, I don't really remember much other than I'm like, oh, yeah, he did try to do things, but I don't remember what they were. And nothing really ever came of it.
- [02:38]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [02:39]
William Curb
So it was lucky in the situation that that's how that worked out because, you know, some people, that is a. Not going to be the right solution.
- [02:47]
Sky Waterson
But, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I. I definitely did struggle in school, in primary school, specifically. Like, really felt like the primary school conversation, it was better when I was older, but I think that that conversation that we'll get into about standing out, but not necessarily for the right reasons, I definitely related to that and I definitely did struggle to, like, get on the same page as my peers when I was in primary school. So this was an interesting and I think very important conversation to have because we. The idea that people with ADHD struggle, which is what this paper has found, is that there appears to be some kind of relationship between people with adhd, struggling with their peers, with their teachers. I didn't struggle with the teachers so much, but definitely with the peers. I think that was something that I related to in this. In this article.
- [03:45]
William Curb
Yeah. And I thought it was. Yeah. The teacher relationship was also an interesting thing where they're like, yeah, sometimes it's positively correlated, sometimes it's negatively correlated because, like, you have this image of the teacher's pet kind of thing and students being like, oh, I don't like how much attention they're getting.
- [04:04]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what we called it. So this paper, it was a structural equation model and they looked at whether ADHD predicted students, relationships with teachers and peers and whether these variables then in turn predicted bullying, victimization and perpetration. And that was what they were trying to do. They had a sample of 135 students. Only 27 of those students, however, had ADHD and then 108 did not. So that was. That was. That came up and does come up as a. As a limitation of this paper.
- [04:41]
William Curb
Yeah. And I think everyone, if you don't know how papers are written, they include in the end, like, hey, how this research could be improved upon later. And they discuss the limitations of the study. And yeah, this is definitely something that they were like, hey, yeah, we would love to see this. Yes, we did find something, but we want to find better data.
- [05:01]
Sky Waterson
It's like if you read a novel and then at the end of the novel they were like, these are all the plot holes that you missed.
- [05:07]
William Curb
Yeah, exactly.
- [05:09]
Sky Waterson
Okay, so let's get into.
- [05:10]
William Curb
It was interesting. Yeah, it was interesting to look at how they kind of met. Like I was think when I was reading through it. So I want to start up. This was a very dense paper to read through and I had to go back a number of times and look through things again and be like, oh wait, how did they do this? And especially thinking about how did they measure bullying? How did they measure like what their peers were doing, felt about them, how they were, their relationship with teachers. And so they did have a lot of good ways that they did these measurements. I felt.
- [05:42]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So how did they measure bullying? Because they had a whole conversation about the understanding of it. The most cited definition of it. Pattern of systematic negative actions by one or more students.
- [05:55]
William Curb
Yeah. So they used this. Everything was done through questionnaires for this and this was the, this one. They used the adolescent Peer relationship Peer relations instrument, the apri. And it's this self reported thing of 36 items with like a 1 to 6 scale of like hey, does this never happen? Does this happen every day? And managers bullying behaviors in physical, verbal and social ways. And then also are you being targeted these certain ways as well? And so they did this like 36 things. How often are. Do these students feel that they are being bullied? And I think this is also an important aspect to understand from bullying too is that the impacts of bullying don't really matter if someone is doing it on purpose. It matters how the person is being perceiving it happening. So the, the aspect there being that okay, yeah, you have different solutions if someone is only perceiving being bullied, but the impact is going to be the same either way.
- [06:57]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think this is also a subtlety in bullying in general, which is one of the reasons why it was good that they looked at it like this. Because if it was teachers perceptions of kids being bullied, for example, they might not pick up on some of the more like subtle ways that children might be being excluded, for example.
- [07:22]
William Curb
Yeah. Or this is. Can go if you. And there's the same this making me think of like this conversation of like microaggressions too where just because you don't feel like what you're doing is bullying doesn't mean that the person doesn't. Is being like this is making me feel not welcome here.
- [07:39]
Sky Waterson
Exactly, exactly. So that was kind of what they were looking at. They were looking at, do you know, students in general think that they're being Bullied. And then also their relationship with their teachers, which was interesting because I had not considered as much, but it makes a lot of sense that, you know, the relationship with your teacher is obviously going to be a big one. And it can be antagonistic, which feels like it shouldn't be because we should just get along, but it is. Like, there's a lot of times when I've worked with meant teachers and they've had students that they find very frustrating. And I'm sure it goes the other way as well.
- [08:19]
William Curb
This was a Italian study, and so they were saying that their most common prevalent teacher was either their Italian language teacher or their science teacher. So that's who they were measuring, like, which teacher are they spending the most time with? And then what's their relationship with that teacher?
- [08:35]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [08:36]
William Curb
And it did another very similar question style of like, hey, how close are you? How, like, what does this relationship look like with your teacher?
- [08:45]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. And then they had this slightly triggering peer nomination technique.
- [08:51]
William Curb
Oh, I, I saw that. And I was like, oh, I. This is something like I had to like post out all the questions that were in here.
- [08:59]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [09:01]
William Curb
So this was like the peer side of it, like, how do your, you associate with peers? And it was just like questions were, who would you want as a table partner? Who would you want as a schoolwork partner? Yeah, who would you want as a field trip buddy? Yeah, number questions like that. And it's just like, oh, this is very like pointing the finger of like, these are the people we want, these are the people we don't want.
- [09:24]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. It brought me right back to high, to not high school, but like I said, the primary school conversations of like, who is your best friend? Who is your best friend? Who are you picking first for sports? Like, all of that kind of stuff that we just, it doesn't really feature so much as an adult, but as a kid that was, that was every day. Get into peers, get into partners. Like, that was always what you would do it.
- [09:45]
William Curb
I feel like some people still experience this as adults, like, where they're like, oh, yeah, there's people at work I don't want to work with and people that.
- [09:51]
Sky Waterson
That's very true. But we don't usually get asked to pick them for teams.
- [09:55]
William Curb
Yeah, that's true. We just get assigned them and we're.
- [09:59]
Sky Waterson
Like, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, we don't, we don't get as much freedom in that in some ways. So basically they, they did this, they collected parental consent. They, by the way, were looking at people who had adhd, diagnoses they couldn't really find. They just knew that they'd been diagnosed with adhd. And then they tried to put it together into a graph of sequences, if this, then that kind of thing with statistics. So what did they find? I mean, we've already kind of said this, Will, but what did they find?
- [10:33]
William Curb
Yeah, they found that kids with ADHD did have more conflict with teachers. They were less liked by classmates and they were more visible or noticeable in the classroom. So, like, all these things where it's like, oh, yeah, this kid is standing out and they're not getting that same. They're not getting. They're not standing out for good reasons.
- [10:52]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah. Which they mentioned specifically. And I think that's really important, especially if some. If you have ADHD and you're sort of like more on the hyperactive side, it might be harder for you to blend with your peers. And that can create its own difficulty, which they wanted to identify, which I thought was really interesting. You know, high, low likability, but high visibility may create bullying and amplify vulnerability to bullying in the classroom. So it's more about like, just. Just not being somebody who was attention either by the teachers in a negative or positive way or from students.
- [11:35]
William Curb
Yeah, yeah. And they discuss this, like, social ripple effect where these classroom relationships have. These unintentionally make the kids more vulnerable, either through the teacher targeting them or being, as we talking, very. Being the very close relationship where they're like, kids are jealous of them.
- [11:56]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah. Which is. Which is really, really interesting. And I think, you know, it was interesting at the end. They did have a little conversation about what this means, like practical things that you could do, which I thought was.
- [12:12]
William Curb
Was.
- [12:12]
Sky Waterson
Was worthwhile, because this is one of those conversations. I think bullying has been always a big conversation, like, how do we deal with it? What's the best way to support your kid if they are going through it, Especially if maybe you used to go through it and now your child is also ADHD and they're also struggling with this. I think it can be a really tough. A tough situation.
- [12:36]
William Curb
Yeah. This study also really made me think of the book, Carolyn McGuire's book, why will no one play with me? Which also discussed this, like, social aspect of adhd, where because of adhd, it's not that we're like, trying to be. We're just not noticing these other social aspects, these things that are going on with body language or other things. It's something that we kind of miss because of. That's just not the thing we're paying attention to when we. That should have been what we were paying attention to. And so we can have these miscues on social interactions, and then that can have that, like, long reaching effects where, like, people like, yeah, that's the kid I don't want to be in a table with or in a group with or talk to on the playground.
- [13:27]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. Because they might interrupt or not want to play or not get the social nuances of things that are going on. And that can be the case with adhd. And that is an uncomfortable reality of. Yeah. Of the ADHD experience.
- [13:44]
William Curb
Yeah. Because I've definitely seen that interaction too, with either with my kids or other kids around them where it's just one kid has this, like, really high spike of energy, and they are really, like, just not realizing that they're not matching the energy of the entire group. And people are like, what are they doing?
- [14:05]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. Yeah. So what advice could we give to somebody who maybe is. Is either like, oh, that was me, or they're experiencing this with their own kids. I'm not a. My kids are 2 and 3. They're not exactly at this point yet. I know your kids are a little bit older. Like, do we have any advice or direction for people besides that book, which I think is a really great one.
- [14:29]
William Curb
Yeah. I mean, this is. Well, this is something that we've talked about before too, of, like, needing to slow down and, like, see what's going on with everyone.
- [14:39]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [14:39]
William Curb
And this. I'm trying to. I'm failing to think of the word here, but it's a very. Mindfulness practice kind of is kind of here. It's because often it's not that these kids don't know how to behave, it's just that they're not noticing in the minute. So having mindfulness practices can really help you. Oh, you know what? Steve's really mad right now. Maybe I shouldn't do a tackle hug on him right now. Like, oh, so specific. Yeah. Yeah. The seeing kids tackle hug each other. I'm just like, man, that is. Yeah. Because this can also happen with parents and teachers where, you know, someone's, like, really focusing on something and the kid comes in and is, like, really wanting to engage in. It's like, this is not the moment to do this particular thing. And it's that mindfulness skill that can really build in to being like, oh, I can see what they want. I've taken. I'm. It's because it's the impulsivity that's really.
- [15:44]
Sky Waterson
What'S driving this yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think it's, it's really helpful to think about it like that. I think that's really helpful in social situations, even as an adult, you know, just reminding myself to take a breath and look around and, but also I would say, like, you know, if this is something that has been part of your experience and, and maybe there's some shame around that maybe you didn't understand you had ADHD at the time. Like, like I said, I also struggled with this in primary school and, you know, it is, it's normal, it's apparently reasonably common. And so, you know, it doesn't have to be this, this idea of like something that you take with you. It's just we, we work in different ways, we notice different things, we have different strengths, and sometimes that makes it hard to relate to others. Especially when you're younger and you're, you're learning that skill, it can take a little bit more time.
- [16:40]
William Curb
Yeah. And if you're still feeling some of these issues. Yeah, it can be helpful to go back and heal your inner child.
- [16:45]
Sky Waterson
Yeah.
- [16:46]
William Curb
Leaves a lasting impression on you when you don't. Aren't holding on to some of these things that honestly shouldn't be things holding you back anymore.
- [16:54]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you still get nervous about the idea of being put into pairs, then now we know why.
- [17:02]
William Curb
School can be both amazing and awful. And it's hard to figure out which way it's going to go because, like, I had some really bad experiences at school, but I also, like, look back at some of my school days and go like, man, I really miss that time of my life as well.
- [17:23]
Sky Waterson
Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of what I got, like, from this paper was so interesting. It kind of like put me back in that school environment where you're like, this is what you have to do and you do not have control over your environment. And I think that that is a really tough part of school. But also, you know, like you said, it does make us engage with other situations and other people we wouldn't otherwise do. Now.
- [17:47]
William Curb
Just feel like it's something that, yeah, it's important to know that, yeah, this is something that happens. And hey, maybe if you have kids yourself, you can think about how you can try and help them learn those skills to better work with friends. If you're a teacher, you can kind of like look at how watch for the hidden dynamics that are happening in the classroom because of adhd. Like, oh, it's this kid, like always not only labeled like the class clown, here, but also labeled the kid that you don't want to be grouped in. And like thinking about how you can do that without singling them out and making horse at the same time.
- [18:24]
Sky Waterson
Yeah, don't do that. We have this paper. If you want this paper, you can just ask us and we'll send it to you.
- [18:35]
William Curb
Hello.
- [18:36]
Sky Waterson
So you were just listening to a research recap. I'm Skye Waterson of Unconventional Organization. If you like that, there's lots of more information about ADHD and support for you@unconventional organization.com you can go ahead and check that out. Lots of free resources, lots of strategies, and if you want to join our programs, you can do that as well. And we'll see you there. Unconventional Organization.
- [19:02]
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