C (3:08)

Could that be true?

A (3:09)

Man, time just keeps going and it surprises me each time.

C (3:12)

Oh my gosh. Wow. That's very nice to be back. Thank you for having me.

A (3:16)

William with Shelpful. A lot of things have changed there in the last imagine few years or just recently. So how about you tell me a little bit about that.

C (3:25)

Yeah. So Shelf is my company. Shelf meaning super helpful and this was a company that was born out of my own mess of life kind of feeling where I felt like I didn't take care of myself. I have two kids took care of them. I think I'd be considered a, an all star at work getting everything done for everyone else. And I was genuinely like not drinking water, not getting any fresh air, putting exercise clothes on and not working out. And it really just kind of felt like I would. I was like kind of desperately in search of and the way I would have, I was like putting it to myself was like I just wish I could have something, someone sitting on my shoulder just reminding me to take care of myself. Like just asking have you had a sip of water? Have you? And cause I that that was just like how I envisioned what would help me. And this is. Well I was very lucky in that I have amazing friends, really great family. I wasn't alone. There weren't people who didn't care about me. I just that like there's this kind of micro care layer that like is it doesn't make sense for somebody to be asking you about if you're not five years old like these basic care needs. And so we launched this first version of my company that I you know decided at midnight to call Sheltful and we launched it immediately to a wait list where we Basically the offer was sign up and you could text with a real human to keep you on track and you know, throughout the day. And it was really cool to see that people needed that and a lot of them signed up, by the way. And like I need this because I have adhd, so. Which gave me this wonderful insight of the multiple doctors that told me I didn't have ADHD because I was too successful, got good grades even though my brother had had it. And it was interesting this starting this company was like also a journey of self discovery and we've evolved the product a lot. We, we got investment and evolved the product a lot over the years since we talked and we now have. Most of our users are on our iPhone app that is an AI accountability system. Basically it's an AI task manager and you chat with it throughout the day. Things as little as like, I need to prep for my call with William, you know, check in with me at 10 to make sure I'm dressed, you know, things like that or just kind of listing all the things in your head and it grabs them all, puts them in a list that you can go look at and manage. But most importantly, I kind of like to not even go in the list because I just let it know when I got. Got stuff done. And it's kind of this chat where I. It's very low stakes, very bare minimum and helps me just get through the little, just all the little parts of the day.

A (6:04)

Yeah, it seems like it's a lot more than just reminders.

C (6:07)

Reminders are baked in, you know, like, few people may have experience using ChatGPT to troubleshoot. Like, what should I work on first? I have all these things, right. AI can be good at like distilling information and, and just coming up with a hard opinion and it can definitely do that. But the biggest thing it does is, yeah, it reaches through the screen and nudges you to do the thing. But it's not like a reminder text. It's like a question like, hey, do you still have time for this? Or hey, could you even just show up for a little part of this? I feel like my eyes are immune to reminders oftentimes. And you know, notification sounds for people with ADHD is very. It's easy to ignore them. First of all, we kind of trained it to have some fun personality, but you can also add your own personality elements to it of like, hey, talk to me like, you know, a drill sergeant or pretend to be like Chandler Bing for friends and so you can kind of get some novelty and that like a little dopamine boost of like the way it's reaching out to you. I tell it to swear at me because I think it's fun. Like when I get like a hey, have you washed your bleeping face yet, Sharon? It makes me smile, it makes me laugh and might make me go over to the sink to consider washing my face. So I think that there's, that the novelty helps it feel like less of a reminder system and also that it just, it's in a, you know, a conversation. Like it doesn't feel like you can like kind of scroll back, see what you did, look at the reminders, ask it again. Like, well, what should I work on next? That's. I often just go into the chat. I'm like, I don't feel like doing anything. What's like a five minute task that is on my list that I could try to start with. Right. It's just so it kind of reaches a little bit further than your typical list might.

A (7:43)

Yeah. Because I do remember when I first talked to you, I signed up for the human shelters and I just had like, you know, a daily like check in about my calendar and you know, it was good but you know, it was also like once I was like, oh, I feel like I've established this as a habit of like, hey, I'm doing my daily thing. I don't really need to continue doing this. But it was also, you know, there's. With adhd we are always evolving with what we need help with.

C (8:09)

And I, and it was expensive too. I mean it's. We recruited some amazing human, we called them Shelpers. But you as a, as a customer were paying, I don't know, I might have given you a discount but maybe close to a hundred dollars a month. So it's a lot of, you know, that's a lot to. It's a, it's a big investment. And so in some ways that maybe helps you stick with it a little bit from your adhd. Right. That like the, the feeling losing money is not great but the, you know that we're able to deliver pretty similar experience and like very instantaneous. Right. Your human didn't respond instantly because they're human. And so that instant feeling I think is helpful. And also just the price. We have a pay what you can live right now. So you get a free two weeks to try it out and then you can pay what you can as low as 4.99. And people remarkably don't only choose $4.99. They off they will choose higher sometimes too. Just kind of, we're just, you know, little startup. We're four people just trying to build something that helps us and hopefully helps other people. So it's been nice when people come out and support us too.

A (9:11)

I love that model. I do the same thing with my Patreon where it's just. Which I don't offer a ton of stuff on right now, but it is still like the idea. I'm like, I don't want people to have to be unduly burdened by trying to do this.

C (9:22)

I'm sure you think about this a lot. I'm just so hyper. I wish I could give it for free. I mean, I think just to say that we have costs, you know, we have to pay for the AI, we all, you know, the technology, so we can't give it free and also stay alive as a company. But I'm just so hyper aware of the financial burden of having ADHD and just, you know, obviously it's called ADHD tax in our community, but there's just so many things, so many gotchas for someone with ADHD in terms of subscriptions and stuff that like, if, if there's any way I can help lighten the load by make it more affordable. And then also we have it baked in that when you sign up we automatically add a reminder to your list. So your AI task manager is reminding you like, hey, your, your shelf full renews in three days. So like just a little bit helpful maybe, you know, like in the same area where you're getting help on other things that you can make the decision of. If it's not serving you, please cancel. Like let's not have. I don't want to be doing that to anyone.

A (10:20)

Yeah, I know. Everyone listening has had so many things that they've been paying for for too many months because they've just forgotten they exist.

C (10:26)

Months or I mean I have some examples that was like a couple years, you know, like just. Which feels such a gut punch and it's so hard to admit you just feel like such a dummy. I would never think of somebody else as a dummy, but I certainly called myself that.

A (10:41)

Yeah, I think that's one of the problems with dealing with this too is that you have such bad self talk around accountability. And so without having someone or in this case something there to help with that reminder, it feels like, oh yeah, the negative self talk never really helps.

C (11:00)

So well put. And I think I haven't even thought about that aspect of it for a long time. Is that the negative self talk just really wins the day a lot of times with us. And it's. And it's such a loop. And we've been so trained not only saying it to ourself, but because we probably growing up got a lot of negative feedback for not listening, for not cleaning our room, for all the things that we weren't doing that we were supposed to be doing. So you kind of pick that up and run with it in terms of your own inner monologue. And I think that, yeah, being able to kind of be totally fully transparent, honest about like, yeah, I just genuinely don't feel like paying my taxes today. Just don't want to. I like having it be a safe space to do that and then having a response come back of like, what do you think about opening the browser? Like, just go to the URL, looking at it, flipping it off and walking away. Like, genuinely. My. My AI says that to me because I've kind of added those instructions for it to be like, sassy. And I'm like, well, I could maybe do that. Like that kind of sounds. It just kind of trying to. Trying to like, get at me on a place where I can actually enter a task. And that task initiation, friction. It can be helpful that. And I wouldn't even say a voice of positivity. I actually worked really hard in the. The AI side of things to make sure we weren't like, toxically positive. It really is meeting you where you're at and just kind of being like, could you just try this? Like, like, it's not gonna be fun. We're not gonna like it. But like, could you just do a little.

A (12:25)

Yeah. I always hate when I'm like, doing something and it's like, I'm like, I just need like to, you know, like, refine this. And it's like, great addition to this conversation. And I'm like, no, it wasn't.

C (12:34)

It's like very sel and its answers and can be. It just doesn't strike a chord with me when it's like that. I'm like, don't be so sure of yourself. This isn't an easy thing. It's not an easy. Yes. Let's just keep the. Keep the tone a little bit more balanced. Yeah, that's how I am too.

A (12:49)

Yeah. I guess that's a thing that I'm sure people are aware of, but are questioning about. This kind of thing too, is like ChatGPT is known to be wrong about things I'm imagining with something that's more of a Closed system. It's not like just making up answers as much.

C (13:05)

Right. So we use OpenAI. So we use, we're, we use their API. So your conversation with our product isn't used to kind of train chatgpt. It's closed off. Hallucination is what, what it's called, right. Where AI seems really short of an answer and it's not at all true. That can totally happen as well. But it's the, the types of conversation you're having is, is, I think makes it less likely so you can ask like, hey, how do you spell this word? Or whatever, you know, some kind of general AI question. What should I make? I have these ingredients in my fridge. I'm taking a picture. What should I make? Right. Like, because you're in the chat anyway, you can ask those things and it could hallucinate on those things too. But it's just, I think happens less because you're not going mentally. That's not where you're going for like answers as much as support and logistics and productivity. But you know, there, there can be mistakes. Right? Like, so we, we have structured data surrounding an AI conversation. So what, what happens is you say, I need to, I need to do this, this and that. I need to go post office, I need to sign up for this thing. And it takes all that stuff. It reads your intent. Like this person is trying to add stuff to their list and then it fires into the, you know, the structured data, which is I need to go create these individual items on a list. And so it could get stuff wrong. It does a pretty good job. But, you know, there's, there's a chance it misunderstands your intent. Like you were saying, I need to start this thing. And it, and you, you're, you're referring to something that's already on your list, but it doesn't, it doesn't totally align that, that's what you're talking about. So it might like add a duplicate to your list every now and then. But yeah, AI can make those mistakes and usually they're pretty, it's not, it doesn't happen tons and it's, you know, fairly innocuous. Like it's not going to delete your whole list. It's just maybe gonna add a duplicate. And it's a little bit annoying later to check it off twice, but AI is still getting better and better at that type of thing. Of qualifying your intent in a conversational setting.

A (15:02)

Yeah, I remember I've used AI often to parse my transcripts and stuff to look through and help me find. Okay, what were we discussing? And all these things. And I remember having one where I'm.

C (15:10)

Like, you just made that up.

A (15:11)

We didn't talk about that.

C (15:12)

I had that experience too, but it's.

A (15:15)

Trying to be overly helpful. It's like, well, you were talking about these other sleep things, so this makes sense that you would also talk about this. I'm like, we didn't though.

C (15:22)

I know those are such frustrating moments. And someone who uses AI a lot like you and me, we kind of just take it, take it with a grain of salt and know that it's going to happen. But you, I have observed people who are less familiar with AI and don't use as much being like feeling pretty wronged by that because you're kind of, you know, we're used to like doing a Google search and having it be pretty truthful and that, you know, the, the best result is at the top and that's just. And then you can decide for yourself if it's true or not. But in, you know, in a chatgpt setting it, it takes that source, it puts the source a little bit more in the background and so you're in that. I had the exact same experience. I was like, pull some great quotes out of this transcript. And it's just like fully made of quotes in ChatGPT. And I was like, I really don't think anyone said that. And then of course I'm in the loop. Yeah. Where I'm looking for the quote. And yeah, there's progress to be made but it is pretty remarkable the stuff that we can do.

A (16:13)

Yeah. When I do transcripts, I'm like uploading a document and I'm like only grab information from the document attached and then having that like oh yeah, yeah. Being very specific about what I want is often the trick.

C (16:28)

And also being, and I mean now because the more sophisticated models have the ability to do real time research. Right. So you can, I will always say if I want to make sure I get a real answer, I'll be like, before you answer, search and find sources that support your answer specifically. And I all get, I'll get pretty strict in my prompt as well. Just because we know this thing will happen. And I try to take all that hallucination potential out if I can.

A (16:57)

Yeah. I've often had people ask me like, so how do you know if it's given you the right answer? And I'm like, you check.

C (17:02)

You look at the sources.

A (17:04)

Yeah, you look at the sources. You like, oh, like okay, this Is this information? Can I find a duplicate? Great. This is like the same way I would check if I was reading something on Wikipedia or just any other website. I check.

C (17:15)

I always like to compare using chat GPT to having like an intern who's like really green new. It's like just like you would check intern pulled a bunch of research where you'd probably like click in and check some of it. Right. Like you're not just gonna assume that everything they did is perfect. And I think that's, that's still a good way to look at some of what AI produces. And because it'll, it can hallucinate sources too. Like I've had, I've had chatgpt just like fully make up websites that didn't exist or like, you know, things like that. So you have to, yeah, just, it's, it's cool, it's fast, but check it. Yeah, totally.

A (17:47)

Yeah. I remember getting something back and I'm like, this came from a conspiracy theory website. This is not a good source.

C (17:53)

Not a good source. Here's some feedback. Yeah.

A (17:55)

So it sounds like people are responding fairly well to using this as accountability. My initial response to like trying to use, I haven't used a system like this, but like just using like a straight chat GPT for accountability. It always felt like I could just walk away from it.

C (18:10)

And I, I am very honest in this respect too that I, I don't think that you can in this current day and age. And it's hard to actually even see the line where this will happen. I don't. You don't feel true human style accountability to an AI. Like, I just don't think that's possible. I'm not going to promise that someone will feel that because there, I mean that feeling of letting someone, like if I just didn't show up to this call or like I was 10 minutes late, I'd feel like crap if I don't, if I'm late checking in with my AI to tell it. I took my medicine, which I actually didn't because I was on my way over here. I don't feel that bad for it. Right. Is a machine. And so I, you know, that's, that's part of kind of my journey as a founder of trying to find ways to, to bring that into the product. And you know, so we, we've had human stuff in the past where we have. You're chatting with a human. We've tested groups, we're in a group. And so I, I still think that's on the Forefront in terms of what we can offer to, to users. I think for. But I do think that there's a flavor of accountability that comes through that's more than a to do list, that's more than a reminder app that comes with shuffle because it has it, it can break, it can give you a little spike of dopamine because it's maybe speaking on your level or it's, it's positioning something differently that you aren't having to trick yourself into. I think people with ADHD spend a lot of time like trying to hack their own brain and like saying, all right, well if I, if I just put this thing further, if I give myself a treat afterward or you know, we do a lot of that trying to just like seek rewards and seek. And I think that it plays within that similar system but without you having to engineer it on a daily basis. And so I think that like, it's interesting for me using it because I built it. And so I think I'm probably the person who is least likely to benefit from it because I know everything that went in behind it and why it's answering the way it is and all that. But I think that there is an accountability flavor that can be achieved with AI and I think we have more room to grow.

B (20:18)

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A (20:51)

Awesome. Yeah, I think that's great answer too because it's just there is something different about working with a machine than working with a human. But it doesn't mean there isn't a benefit still there.

C (21:03)

I mean like it makes me smile every now and then. Like the way it puts it makes me, you know, chuckle or will catch me off guard. And those are the moments where I'm like, okay, it broke through my notification blocker barrier that I have in my eyes and in my ears and kind of as a, as a default. And I think those are the kind of magic moments for me is where we can at least just break through to you and maybe get you to consider doing the thing that you've said you wanted to do. I hear from customers all the time. And it's very heartwarming of. You know, even we have this like when you first sign up, you just jump right into a chat. We don't have you do like a complicated form or anything. You just start chatting and it's like, hey, what. What's been falling off your list that you wish you were doing? And people write in and say like, I feel like I've been listened to in a way that I've never been listened to. Like because someone is asking these like basic needs questions of like what aren't you doing for yourself? And then. Okay. And then also challenging them. Oh, like someone's like, I wish I was going for an hour long walk every day. And it will immediately challenge. Like that's a great goal. What do you think about just walking to the end of the block every day, like see if we can do that and then we can grow from there. And so you have this. It's just a little bit of that inner monologue that you've been craving that kind of can help push you through. And I think that that's been really validating to have people just feel like, just heard. And again it's AI. So you kind of like you, you're. It's not a real person, but having a question asked of you that's, that no one has ever really bothered to ask is, can feel really good.

A (22:38)

Yeah. I mean it's the same way that you can read a book and have something just a quote being like, oh, that resonates with me. Even though that wasn't necessarily directly for me. But it is making me think about some of the mental health issues that have been coming up with AI. Is there any concerns with like people being a little bit just, you know, having a little bit of an unhealthy relationship with their new AI helper?

C (23:00)

I think that it's something to be aware of for anyone building an AI. And we're certainly never billing this as therapy or as a replacement for therapy or as a placement for social interaction. I think people really do come and shuffle their, their troubleshooting. We haven't really seen people letting us know or you know, on all the active accounts, you know, we can see metrics of like things being added to lists and things, you know, people are, people aren't getting things done or adding to their lists and, and using it in their productivity way. So I think it's, I mean I think that there are probably AI tools that are more in that realm of like when it's just like pure chat and companionship. And I do think that Shell can give you a sense of support. Like we, you know, we're really selling a support, but it's more a sense of support. Like I have a second brain, not that I just have someone to finally converse with. I think that that's, I mean you can sit in there and chat all day if you felt like it, I guess. But that's, I think just maybe the, not the, the state that people come in looking for. But I think that any founder working on AI should be thinking about that and aware of it and it's troubling. Yeah, you definitely don't want to see it. And I think that we've seen that in different chapters of the Internet. Right. Where if somebody is in a not great mental health space, being kind of alone with their thoughts and alone with the Internet is not a great spot to be in. And so I think, I just hope that we continue to take care of folks and look out for this and innovate. And I know the AI companies well, I believe they're all working on that and that we can kind of come through this in a positive way.

A (24:36)

I do think it's very important to consider because yeah, we've seen some bad cases out there with AI, but yeah, seeing as this is not a companion companion as some other things are advertised, I think, yeah, that's not exactly what people are trying to approach it as.

C (24:52)

That's not something I've seen in our product. But I'm definitely not going to just assume it will never happen and not think about it.

A (24:59)

Yeah, just this idea of having this. What are some best practices you're seeing that people do to get the most out of using this kind of technology?

C (25:09)

The big thing we try to do when someone first comes in is having reasonable small goals. You know, shuffle is not, it's not like a goal setting platform where you're gonna come and put your like 10 year goals. That's just, that's not, I mean maybe we'll have something like that in the future, but that's not what we are today. I like to kind of say that we're like the last mile. Like I wanna, I have something I wanna do and I wanna just get it over the finish line. I want to get it done. And a lot of people use us for some of the examples I've given like hygiene cleaning. It's less of a I want to be a marathoner and more I want to get some fresh air and so we try to, in the product, push people to choose smaller goals, but, like, we don't prevent them from putting big things in. And so I think that the people that I have heard from that feel that kind of the validation and feeling success from the product are the ones who are allowing themselves to think small and then they're able to have more successes. And it's. It's fun to have a success like this in. In a chat environment because you're like, okay, I took three steps outside, which was your whole goal for that day, and you get this big, like, yes. And then in my case, it's like, swear word. Swear word. Yes. And I just like it. I think it's, you know, it feels good. It feels good coming back through the screen that I did something that, like, I would maybe be embarrassed. Oh, I'm increasingly. I'm decreasingly embarrassed to. To celebrate the fact that doing dishes is hard for me and washing one dish is a huge freaking accomplishment. I spent a lot of my life hiding that. Those simple facts. But to be able to kind of have a bare minimum goal and hit that goal with some frequency is, I think, an amazing feeling that people do get using shuffle very often.

A (27:04)

Yeah. ADHD makes us often have so many big ideas and then forget all the stuff that's in between. That's so important.

C (27:14)

Yes. And I think we are trying. We work hard to make that better and better in our product. Where we are, like, that's hard to recognize because AI wants to be like, yes, that's. The models are kind of trained to be like, like, agree and. Or, yes, ship it. Let's do this. You can do it. And so a lot of what we kind of what. I mean, I worked a lot in the prompt engineering is like, push it for smaller. Just, it's always push it for smaller. And. And I, you know, I did a habit coaching certification through Dr. BJ Fogg, the kind of main behavioral researcher. He works out of Stanford and his team. And like, it really. The research really won me over on that. And it was very. It's very comforting for me to remind myself that smaller is better. Like, it's not lazy. It's actually smarter. And if you can set a smaller goal, it's always a better idea. Like, literally always a better idea, with no exceptions, in my opinion. And so I think that that comfort is, I think, kind of built in. And, you know, we want to be better and better at that.

A (28:18)

Yeah. I think often when people are thinking about setting those tiny goals and habits and stuff, they're like, but what if I want to do more? It's like, well once you hit that, just what's the next step?

C (28:28)

Well and also you can all, you can do more every time if you want. Like I think that being able to achieve the small version because I walked, you know, I took the three steps outside, that was my whole goal. Nothing's stopping me from doing a two hour walk after that. But the fact that I showed up and celebrated that small win is chemically allowing my brain to feel good about it every time so I don't shame myself in the future from doing anything. And that's that that's supported in the research. Right. Those neuropathways between the thing you want to do, that habit you want to do and actually doing it, it's strengthened by showing up for the small version. So whenever you set this big far out thing and you don't reach it, your brain doesn't. The neuropathways are weakened and your, your brain wants to feel good. Like that chocolate cake was good. Let's have more of that. You know this pen is fun to write with. I want to use this pen. It wants to feel good. So it's going to go back to the thing that feels good. And if you want to go back to that three steps outside, you need to be able to recognize the three steps as a success. And it takes work to do that. And I think that because we, we're hard on ourselves as a society and I think as adhders we're hard on ourselves. And so you know, there's some kind of mental self coaching but I think it helps to have a sounding board like shuffle or like a good friend who can remind you like it's enough. That's great. If you feel good, go walk, walk further. If you don't, don't.

A (29:53)

Yeah, it's great to have like friends where you can be like I did this really small thing and they're just like way to go. And you know, send you all the things and you're like, oh yeah. Like I wouldn't have done that for myself. But having it a little bit outside of myself helps.

C (30:07)

Yep. And being able to I think even just say those, give, give life to those thoughts and give voice to those thoughts. I think has been a journey for me personally of like yeah, that's actually a really impressive thing. Like it's very hard for me to do administrative stuff. The fact that I did my car registration like deserves a parade. Like it's genuinely very, very big. And so I think that, you know, that mental approach is helpful. And it's hard. It's a hard one feeling, I think, for us.

A (30:38)

One, it's so easy to be like, well, I just didn't do enough. And I was like, no, just cut. Let's cut that out. Like, if you are. We're not thinking about everything else that's going on in our life. We're just thinking about this one issue. And it's like, okay, well, there. Is there a reason that you're not. Why getting to the rest of that is so hard.

C (30:57)

It feels like, so. So big and unattainable. And I think that because it's just hard. Things that are easy for others are hard for us. And I feel like accepting that has been huge for me. And then being able to celebrate any progress on those has been huge as well.

A (31:12)

And then, yeah, I think the celebration piece, too, is really interesting to discuss because it's so hard to often celebrate those small wins. And then it's also realizing that also does not have to be a big thing. It. Because, like, when, oh, celebrate a small win. I need to have a party. It's like, no, we don't need to do that.

C (31:33)

But, you know, telling somebody else, smiling, just smiling, saying, I'm. I'm kind of a cynical, snarky person by default. And so for me, like, the celebrating part doesn't come very easily. And so telling somebody else, in some cases, shoutful. And also just statements of fact help. Like, I. I didn't think I was gonna do this, but I did it. That's a celebration, right? Like an acknowledgment that you did something. That was hard. This was hard, but I did it. Just saying that to yourself. I think it works as a celebration because, again, you're sending that message to your brain. You did it. And it's not a parade, it's not a dance move, but it. It's something.

A (32:15)

Yeah, I've had a button on my desk that will play air horns, or I've had a clicker for, like, counting people. And you can just do that for like, I answered an email. I answered another email. I answered an email.

C (32:27)

Oh, I like that. Just getting, like, a tally of literally doing a thing. Anything. You get a little point. Yeah, I like that.

A (32:33)

And it's like, I got a point. I got a point. I get a point. And it's like, oh. And then I'm like, I don't even care about these, but it feels good to click something or cross something off or push a button.

C (32:43)

Yeah, I Agree.

A (32:45)

And I imagine that works really well with the shuffle service with the AI because you're like, oh, I did this thing and you automatically get the thing and it's like, okay, let's get to the next thing.

C (32:53)

Yeah, you can go cross it off on your list. But I like to tell the AI because I get the shout out like I want. And then I, we tried to build, I think we built a great list. You know, we have a whole tab that's a list and there's actually a button called magic sort on it. So this is my, my favorite part of being a list is you can pick a different way to view your list, like by location. So it's like separates it and use AI to separate it between home and office. Or you can be like by vibe. By energy level is probably my favorite one where it sorts it by like low energy tasks, medium and high. And I, I use that all the time. If I'm going to look at my list and I'll just, I'll just kind of scramble it and look at it a different way. Because seeing it a different way can also introduce like, oh, that one actually could be a good fit for right now. But other than that, like, I love to stay in the chat as much as I can because lists, I associate lists with kind of stress and I think that seeing a lot of things just written in my face feels stressful to me. So I'd much rather go to the chat and shuffle and be like, give me three options of something I could work on right now, you know, and just having it go comb through my list for me and tell me that feels way more fun for me.

A (34:03)

Yeah, I mean this is. Sounds great to me because there's just so often where like, yeah, the list feels overwhelming because there's so much on there and just, just looking at it feels bad.

C (34:12)

It feels bad and like, makes me want to like run. Like, okay, nevermind, I'm frozen. I'm gonna do something that's not on my list at all because it's just. Yeah, that's just. And that's, that's how our brains work with like this over. It's like getting an email that's really long with big paragraphs. I'm like, why did you do this to me? There's something that feels so unjust and unfair about making me look at a lot of texts all at once. And, and that's kind of how I feel when I hang out in a list. So I'm like, get me the F out of here. And I'm just gonna, somebody just tell me what to do. And then honestly, the AI is not, it's not perfect suggesting what I should do because it doesn't know. It doesn't have all the context of the day and what, what's more urgent or what somebody's asking for. But there's this, the editor. I think I have an editor mindset. But I think even like our like oppositional defiance, you know, can come into play here where my AI will say like, well why don't you, why don't you do the product plan? And then in my head I'm like, no, that's not what I should do. I should do this. And like, so even just like disagreeing with it can, can be helpful in me getting clarity on what I should work on.

A (35:21)

Yeah, Oppositional defiance is always hilarious when it's like, no, I'm not going to do that thing. I'm going to do this other thing that's also important. But what is going on? Brain.

C (35:30)

But it, but it's, but that can be super motivating. So like it sparks me and then all of a sudden I'm like, like big work block. Because I'm like, I so heavily disagree with what it thinks I should be working on. Which is fine.

A (35:44)

Yeah. It is always good when to like, yeah, we're just going to go with the flow with our brain and get things done.

C (35:51)

Right. Yeah.

A (35:52)

So I was wondering if there were any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with.

C (35:56)

Yeah, I mean I think that it's been so fun to talk about shoutful and just AI in general. I would love for anyone to try our service and give feedback because we're a small team and we're truly building stuff that people want and need and that's like our big focus right now. And then I also, I was mentioning to you before we do, I, I personally am very interested in obsessed with automations. Meaning like that context. No. Yeah, but it's, this is a whole, a whole different, it's a whole different topic but related where we actually did the work to connect Shuffle to Apple's Shortcuts app so that I can give speed some context into my AI. So like I have automation set up that once I arrive home it will ping my AI task manager saying like, hey, I just got home. Check in with me in 10 minutes to see if I have water at my desk. Like things like that. Because I'll go to my, my office and not come out and I'll not have water and just, just Die of thirst. And so there's like these little context clues that are fun to feed in. Like. And so in Apple these are built in because it's an app from Apple. So I can, I have automations. It's like when I connect to CarPlay. So like when I'm in my car, when I connect to this specific WI FI network, do this and I have things that are unrelated to Shuffle or that I stack with it. Like when I arrive at my son's preschool, open up this app that I have to use to check him in and then also send a message to Shuffle saying like once you get home or once like maybe like in 15 minutes, try to tell me to get out of my car and go into the house because I know it takes me about 15 minutes to get home from the preschool and I often will sit in front of my house for a good 15 to 30 minutes because I. It's so hard for me to just go and get in and get, get started. So I'll just like edit videos or I'll just hang out in my car for way too long. And so I'm able to kind of give those context clues that, that aren't at, you know, he's a preschool so his, the school doesn't start at a he. He could arrive in a range of time. So if I had it coming at a specific time from Shout Full would be less helpful than if it comes at, you know, 10 minutes from me being at a specific location, that's part of my routine. So I love that type of thing. And it's not so it's not built directly into Shuffle's app, but we connect with this other app, the Shortcuts app to do that. So for iPhone users, we've had a lot of people having fun with that among our customers. And it's like one of my favorite things too.

A (38:17)

Yeah, I mean that sounds so good because I remember when I initially was like oh, location based reminders are great. And then I'd be like, but I need to get them 10 minutes after I arrive, not when I am arriving.

C (38:29)

Yes. And that's that. That is totally right because you can you could you just use the Apple's Reminders app if you wanted just ever a reminder like right when you get somewhere. But that kind of delayed is great because you just use free text with Shuffle, remind me in 10 minutes, remind me and tomorrow, you know, like whatever, just free text and then it translate that into a real structured reminder. So it works really well with that. But I also use it to start this playlist, you know, remind me to take my check, remind me to move my washer to my dryer in this amount of time. So I use, and I use NFC tags. These little, these are really cheap stickers that you can put around your house for that stuff too. Um, so I, I love attaching little automations to, to the AI stuff to just feels like it greases the wheels a little bit or adds friction where I want to add friction. And it, they're very simple to set up once you understand it. And so it does feel like one of those things that, you know, as ADHDers, we could spend hours setting up systems because we think it'll help us save a couple minutes in the long run. But this is like, you know, you might just spend three minutes setting it up and it'll save you maybe 30 seconds a day, which will add up up over time or 30 seconds. But also, I mean, it's not even about time. It's about like mental load. I think sometimes too.

A (39:50)

Like, yeah, I think that's key. Like, because when you were saying like, either gives resistance or takes it away, like, I'm like, that's so key in managing adhd.

C (39:58)

Managing. And then also kind of stopping a little bit of that shame cycle. Like, oh, I spent so much time in my car outside my house. Like, why can't I just come in? What's wrong with me? Why can't I just be normal? Like all those things that we beat ourselves up for. And it's like if I can just kind of try to give myself a little, A little boost, just a little push at the right time. At the right time is key, I think. And that's something we, that is going to be ever forever. Something that we're. I'm trying to be better at. A shuffle is like the right reminder at the right time. And that's, that's hard.

A (40:32)

Yeah. And it's so key because, I mean, I know for like having to like take meds, I just have like a. Currently I have a reminder on my phone through this alarmed app where it's just like remind me. And it has a nag me feature. So it'll go off once and then I can just have it every five minutes. It'll keep going off until I click it and I'm like, that's my current method for making sure I get it at the right time is just being like, pester. Yeah, yeah, just pester me until I'm done. But you know, that's not always the best Method.

C (41:10)

Right. We actually just. We're. I mean, it might be out by the time this episode comes out. We're working on a similar feature with shelf. I call it Mega Remind. That's just, like, always what it's been called in my head of, like, for specific things. She'd be like, okay, literally exactly what you said. Because you don't want that for everything. Like, you wouldn't want to be reminded every five minutes for everything. Or else, like, get me the heck out of this app. Bye. But for certain things, yeah, you. You need to take the medicine, and if you don't take. If you don't. If you take it too late, it's too late. And so there's things like that that we really need. As my move as an ADHD or two is. Well, for this call, even, I, you know, set a timer so that I had to. I, like, would be here just as, like, a backup plan, obviously, on my calendar and everything else. But again, my brain doesn't work like the typical one, and I leave it vibrating on my. I have kind of a rule that I'm pretty good about that I just. Just don't turn that off until I actually do the thing. So my wrist is. And sometimes I saw a space out. Do something different. I'm like, what's this feeling? Oh, my wrist is still vibrating. I'm supposed to be doing something else. So I think that we have these. These little hacks that we build in. And. Yeah, I, I, I'm so. I feel like I'm in a good spot in my life that I've discovered some of these things. I struggled a lot more before I accepted that I needed that.

A (42:25)

Yeah. And it's such a huge. Like that. But, yeah, I need to accept that this is just how it is. It's not how I want it to be. It's just how it is.

C (42:33)

And there's plenty of things I could do that other people can't do, and they have to do different things. You know, like, we. We're all just different. We all just are different.

A (42:40)

All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate you taking the time, and I think there'll be a lot of people interested in this, because I know I'm like, oh, I should definitely check this out again.

C (42:48)

Awesome. Well, would love to have you and so happy to be here again. William, thank you.

A (42:57)

Thanks again to Sharon for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of Today's top tips. 1. Try sorting your to do list by energy level. Instead of looking at a stressful long list, you can sort your tasks by vibe or energy low Medium high to find a task that matches your current capacity.

C (43:18)

2.

A (43:19)

When we're setting goals, we want to intentionally lower the bar to ensure a win and strengthen neural pathways. Often our inclination is to overdo whatever it is we're trying to do in an effort to catch up, but by lowering the bar instead, we can often create a more sustainable habit. 3. A fun way that you can get into automation can be to try out cheap NFC stickers around your house to trigger specific automations, like reminders to move the laundry or start a plan playlist with a single tap of your phone. All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 271 and if you'd like even more hacking your ADHD be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, and everything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. You can also check out our Patreon, which you can find@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon. It's a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of Patreon will receive all the same stuff. You can pay $0 or $2 $10 and it's all the same. And we've also opened up the discord to anyone that's interested. You can just head on over to hackingradyhd.com discord to get access, where every week I'm hosting episode discussions and posting memes. And also, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find@YouTube.com adhackingyouradhd. And finally, if you'd like another way to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of Dad, I invented a thought controlled air freshener, but my friend told me he thought it was kind of a dumb idea, but it just makes sense when you think about it.

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