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Hacking Your ADHD
Simple Isn’t Easy: ADHD Advice You’ll Actually Use w/ Dr. Ari Tuckman
00:41:10
Hey Team! This week, I’m talking with Dr. Ari Tuckman, a psychologist, certified sex therapist, and one of the most well-known voices in adult ADHD. Ari brings over 25 years of clinical experience to the table, along with his new book, The ADHD...
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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [00:20]
Jeffrey
Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [00:22]
Zoe
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
- [00:25]
Jeffrey
Well I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you. T teach me so Bella oh no.
- [00:33]
Zoe
I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [00:43]
Jeffrey
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [00:51]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Nice.
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Zoe
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [00:53]
Jeffrey
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [00:54]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.
- [01:00]
Jeffrey
So what are we having for launch?
- [01:01]
Zoe
Dude, work here is done.
- [01:04]
T-Mobile Announcer
The 24 month bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credit sended balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $199.99 A new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence data 182025 Visit T mobile.com.
- [01:24]
William Curb
Welcome to hacking your ADHD. I'm your host William Curb and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help ADHD brain Hey team. This week I'm talking with Dr. Ari Tuckman, a psychologist, certified sex therapist, and one of the most well known voices in adult ADHD. Ari brings over 25 years of clinical experience to the table along with his new book, the ADHD Productivity Manual, which takes an honest look at the tools we use and why sometimes they don't work out quite the way we want them to. It was also actually kind of funny. Before we started recording, we were talking about how it's amazing that our orbits have never actually crossed before. Well, in the episode I do get.
- [02:07]
Chris Gethard
Into an anecdote about how I did.
- [02:08]
William Curb
Attend one of his talks he gave.
- [02:10]
Chris Gethard
In 2019 and some shenanigans that went.
- [02:12]
William Curb
On, but that's basically as close as we'd interacted before this. In our conversation today, we unpack how shame and compassion can hijack our energy, how to set reminders that actually help instead of hinder. And why simple doesn't always mean easy. We also touch on what it means to communicate our needs assertively without over apologizing. And why trying to do everything perfectly is the fastest route to doing nothing at all. There's a ton of easy access, actionable advice in this episode. I had a ton of fun with it and I think you'll love it too.
- [02:42]
Chris Gethard
If you'd like to follow along on.
- [02:43]
William Curb
The Show Notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com228 alright, keep on listening to find out what it takes to be productive with adhd.
- [02:58]
Chris Gethard
All right, so I'm thrilled to have you here talking about your new book, the ADHD Productivity Manual. And I think a great place for us to start here is this idea of, well, why does ADHD make productivity harder? Because sometimes it's like, oh, this is a very obvious thing. But when I'm trying to work for a problem, if I go, oh, well why is this then? That makes solutions so much easier to find.
- [03:19]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Oh, it definitely does. This is somebody else's saying. But a problem well defined is a problem half solved, right? In that it's such an awesome saying, you know, because it really does capture it for not just productivity and not just adhd, but also like, why is my computer doing this weird thing? Or, you know, why does my knee hurt when I walk upstairs or whatever, right? So like, if you can be more specific about identifying the problem, then, you know, like you shorten the list of possible options. And this is why a diagnosis like ADHD or whatever is so important, right? Because it narrows you down, right? We know what works for adhd, we know what doesn't work for adhd. You've probably figured a lot of that out yourself before you got diagnosed. But you know, like a diagnosis helps you shorten the work a bit, hopefully. And I mean, the thing about it is, first of all, just being human and imperfect already is going to make it sometimes harder to get certain things done, right? So that's hardly a unique ADHD thing. It's not like everyone else is just cranking stuff out all the time, except for ADHD folks. But finally coming around to the question that was asked, it's all that sort of distractibility, the forgetfulness, the not feeling the pressure of the deadline until it's a whole lot closer, you know, to the current moment. You know, that stuff where it's like, ah, crap, it really would have been good to have worked on this three days ago. But here I am the night before, you know, just not feeling that like fire in the belly kind of motivation early enough to be able to, you know, do what you need to do, but also like forgetting the details. Like, wait a second, did I get an email about this? Now let me scroll through my, you know, email and try different search terms. Right, so like wasting time on that or getting off on a tangent of dealing with something else. There's all the psychology of it of like worrying. Even if you're like, I'm pretty sure this is what it is. Like here's what I need to do. But there's the worry of like, but what if it isn't? What do I not even know? I don't know.
- [05:29]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
So that can also make it harder, you know, or people pleasing or so. Yeah, turns out there's a lot that goes into productivity.
- [05:37]
Chris Gethard
I'm feeling the thoughts about missing the small details because this past week I, my kids were on spring break and so things were up in the air a little bit. But I had a few things I needed to do. Like appointment wise I got to all of them, but it was by luck, not by, not by design. Yeah, yeah, I was just like, I'd like, look, have like something pop up on my phone like, oh, I need to, I have this appointment in 30 minutes and I have a 30 minute drive to get there. Why, why would I put that reminder in my calendar minutes ahead of time when I know it's a 30 minute drive?
- [06:06]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, but this is an awesome example, right? Because you know, like the obvious, frankly kind of insulting advice is oh, set a reminder, you know. Okay, sure. But there is something of an art to when the reminder gets set, right? And this is a perfect example because the alarm for you should now stand up and walk out the door is fine. But that may not be awesome as your first alarm, right? That might be an awesome second alarm or third, but not first, you know.
- [06:41]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, it's certainly one of those things where when you get that reminder is so important. Especially like, you know, if I have like a reminder to take my trash out, if I'm getting that when I'm not at home, that's yes, like what am I doing?
- [06:53]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Not helpful. Yeah, exactly. I mean that is definitely a part of it about thinking about what's going on, where am I going to be, when is the right time to set the reminder. But even, even, even just more basic things of like I've got this appointment at 3, I gotta leave at 2:30, but what's happening at 2, right? Am I gonna notice the alarm? Am I gonna be finished with what I need to so I can just stand up at 2:30? So there's that part of things as well. Which means when you set the appointment for three, you first of all knew what it is that you needed to do.
- [07:29]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
And that you, by the way, had it in your calendar. And you could look at your calendar and say, yes, three is a good time, let's do that. Or like, ooh, wait a second, you know, I got this thing. Probably three is not going to work out. Let's not do that.
- [07:43]
Chris Gethard
And it's then also remembering that there's a bunch of other things built around that task too. Like, so, appointment at three, if I have that 30 minutes of drip, but I still have to get ready to leave, I still have to park and walk into the building, check in with the receptionist, and like, all these little pieces that take time and it's easy to forget that they exist.
- [08:01]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, and that's a good point too, because like, 3 o' clock doesn't mean your car is within 100ft of it at 3 o'. Clock. It means, you know, you found a place to park and you've, you know, walked in and you found the right door and you know, so there's definitely. There's that part of it. But there's also the kind of other thing. I've got this. I kind of sometimes sell this story, but I've got a client who, you know, set an alarm for his doctor's appointment and whatever, and he got there on time and he was awesome. Except he didn't note down which office it was, who. He's at the wrong office at the right time. Which it turns out, isn't actually that helpful for getting your meds refilled, lo and behold, you know, so, like, that would have been something to include as well, probably in all caps, you know, doc Extant office or Westchester office or whatever.
- [08:53]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
Especially if it's not the usual one. So this is if it feels hard sometimes to be productive, to get all the details right. This is why. Because there's actually a lot to it. It's not that you're stupid, it's that this stuff is actually pretty complicated in that a lot of things need to happen the right way for things to work out well in the end. But it only takes one thing to not work out for things to not work out well in the end.
- [09:21]
Chris Gethard
And I think it's really important for us to remember because there's so much shame that Comes with adhd. And when we make a, this is easy stuff that I can't do, that's not really helpful. And it might just. The example I often go with is trying to be simple and easy aren't the same thing. So being like, it's simple to do the dishes, but it's not always easy to do the dishes.
- [09:43]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
I love that line. That's so great. Yeah. Here I'm going to give you a giant stack of papers to file. Knowing the Alphabet is simple.
- [09:51]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
Like, if, you know, B comes after A, you've got it. But, like, it's not easy.
- [09:56]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [09:57]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Anyone's going to struggle to force themselves through a big, tall stack of papers.
- [10:01]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [10:02]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
So. Yes, exactly. Simple and easier, not the same thing.
- [10:05]
Chris Gethard
And yeah. And then we, when we conflate the two, we often have this shame about, well, why can't I do this? And should be able to do this? And then also, like, when we're. You're mentioning, like, you know, we have this, like, sense of, like, oh, I could have done this three days ago. Why didn't I do it then? And I find that dealing with the shame is often one of those things that, like, does not feel like it's on the productivity radar, but it's definitely something that hits hard and makes it even harder.
- [10:31]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And it absolutely, absolutely does.
- [10:32]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [10:33]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Because there's that just the basic sort of cognitive part of ADHD of remembering to do it in the first place and sustaining attention and resisting distractions and, you know, generating motivation and whatever. But there's absolutely that more emotional piece like you just discussed.
- [10:53]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
And it's not just what are the emotions evoked by this one specific situation? Probably not that big a deal. But what are all of the other emotions that come from other somewhat similar situations that get poured into this moment? Like, that's. That's the flood that washes you away.
- [11:14]
Chris Gethard
Okay, how are we building a better foundation to work from here? And so I assume that's something that is kind of what the focus of your book is, like building these skills up.
- [11:25]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
It is, it is. I mean, it's sort of. This is one of those things. As always, I'm like, oh, this book isn't going to be that long. And then I keep having, like, oh, here's an idea and here's an idea. And I totally have to talk about this, right? That, like, so there's like, 36 short chapters, but I talk about, like, 36 different areas that are involved or 36 different ways that we sort of get tangled up. And, you know, some of it is the obvious stuff, hopefully stated in a more helpful way. But things like get enough sleep and, you know, exercise and take your medication and here's how to use a to do list without hating it. And here's how to use your calendar and set alarms like we discussed, you know, setting up a good work environment in some various different ways, but also getting into this psychology stuff of like feeling overwhelmed or feeling like you have too many ideas or the ways that we talk ourselves away from doing the things that we should do. And then also kind of the social piece, right, because probably what you're doing or not doing is, you know, has some involvement with other people or at least they have some opinions about what you do or don't do. So, you know, like, there's that whole part of it as well, of how do you not only figure out how to get stuff done, but also how do you negotiate with other people about what you should get done or how or when?
- [12:52]
Chris Gethard
I don't want to harp on it too much with the idea of simple and easy, but that does feel like a lot of what is going on here is that we need to step back and kind of be a little less judgmental of our tools.
- [13:02]
William Curb
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:03]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
I mean, if the tool works well and it doesn't, you know, negatively impact other people, then, then do it. Now, it might be that you need to explain it to people, right? Because they're going to look at and say, I don't understand that. You know, I don't do that. What are you doing there? Fine, explain it to people. Help them understand why this is something that's helpful to you, particularly if it's something that better enables you to do a thing that matters to them, right? So if you have some co worker that you need to get something to, or if it's your romantic partner or whatever, right? Like they have some stake in this than helping them. See, if I do it this way, you're more likely to get what you want. Most people are going to be pretty happy to hear it. The trick of it, though, is to say it in a way that's kind of straightforward, sort of assertive, and also not too apologetic, Right. Don't come from a position of weakness or like, basically like, please give me permission to do this thing. Because you're not asking permission, you're informing them. Because if you get too kind of psyched out and weird about it, right, if you get kind of like skittish about it, then that's going to evoke something from the other person, and it may not go the way you want it to go.
- [14:22]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
So you're just kind of letting them know. FYI, here is the thing that I do. And yeah, I find it helpful, so.
- [14:29]
Chris Gethard
And especially those things that, you know, aren't going to be big effects on other people. Like, during the conversation, I have my, like, fidget I'm playing with. Like, that is very easy to help me stay focused on the conversation and just do something with my hand that does not make any noise most of the time. Occasionally I will, like, be recording and drop it. I'm just like, chunk. And I'm like, oh, thank God for editing.
- [14:48]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Or also, maybe we don't edit and who cares?
- [14:51]
Chris Gethard
But then you do have the things that will, like, you know, it's can be very difficult with managing other people's expectations sometimes when they're like, no, but you should just be able to do this.
- [14:59]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. You know, look, that whole debate about whether you should or shouldn't, like, whatever, you know, maybe you should, maybe you should, like. But here we are, you know, like, I'm telling you, I know myself, and this works much better. So now, having said all this, there's a difference between doing a thing that doesn't particularly impact someone else in any kind of real tangible way. It's more like they don't like the idea of it.
- [15:27]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [15:27]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
So if I was sort of rigid and was like, why are you, you know, playing with that thing in your hand that looks disrespectful? You shouldn't do that.
- [15:35]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
But it's not like you're hitting me with it. And it's not like you're clicking it so here. So, like, I don't actually have a stake in this. That's my problem. In that case, you know, now you might try to explain it to say, like, no, actually it helps me focus more, not less. So this is better for you if. If I do this right, and maybe I can get it. I'm like, okay, cool, all right. Or I don't really understand it, but, like, fine, whatever. But if I continue to be offended by it, that's kind of my problem at that point. Now, that's kind of different. If it's a thing where it's like, honey, I need to leave all of my stuff out because out of sight, out of, you know, like, maybe, yes, but also, like, you have a roommate that might be your spouse or kids or someone, but, like, you have roommates. So, like, you do need to figure out how to live with other People. And what is that sort of balance that we can all sort of live with?
- [16:28]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, there's definitely the aspects with family, people you live with, and then work things are also. Can be very complicated because of power dynamics there. You know, like, you know, some of us are going to have a little bit more privilege in working with people that are going to be understanding, understanding, and other people are gonna be like, yeah, I don't even believe in adhd, so whatever you're saying doesn't fly. And it's like, I would love to be able to tell people, hey, just don't work there. But I. I understand that's also not realistic.
- [16:55]
Interviewer/Host
Right, right.
- [16:56]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
I mean, having said that, there are times when I think you do need to recognize this is not a sustainable situation. This is not a good fit. I will not be happy here. I can't convince this person, whether it's a job or a friendship or a relationship. Right. And like, at those times, it is not a small thing, but it's better to leave on your timing the way that you want to than it is to, you know, wait for the axe to drop. So, like, that is sometimes the only good option, but it's not an easy one. But at other times where it's someone who doesn't have that extra power over you, so there isn't like a boss, employee or whatever.
- [17:40]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [17:41]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Like, week that's different, where it's like, sorry, man. Like, I'm sorry this bothers you. You can have every opinion you want, but I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do here, and you don't have the right to stop me again, as long as it's kind of a reasonable thing. Like, you can't be a jerk and say, well, I have adhd, so that's on you.
- [17:59]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, it's really going into the difference between excuse and explanation kind of thing, too. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'm late because of, you know, factors. But it's. I have to acknowledge my being late affects other people. And I can't just be like, well, just my adhd. You gotta live with that.
- [18:14]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
No, exactly, exactly. So it's kind of knowing the time and place, you know, for things or knowing what the situation is. I sometimes say that other people shouldn't be working harder on your ADHD than you are.
- [18:28]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
So if. If it's more work for them to accommodate you being laid and you're just kind of strolling in casually as if you didn't really put any effort into getting there on time, that's a setup for resentment. Like, they will absolutely resent you because the balance is wrong. I'm working harder than you. What's up with this? On the other hand, if you show up late, but you somehow.
- [18:50]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
You really convey like, I am really sorry. I am doing my best. It's not great, but trust me, this is my best.
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Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
20 minutes late is as good as it gets. I could be an hour and a half late. So I'm not going to say count yourself lucky, but like, I worked my ass off to only be 20 minutes late.
- [19:09]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. And I feel it's also. That's something that we can consider giving ourself grace on too, is like the number of small errors I've made in, you know, like booking reservations or driving to the wrong airport. And it'd be like, yeah, there are a lot of things that go wrong. And I do have to give myself like, hey, I know I'm trying my best, even if it self talk sometimes convinces me otherwise.
- [19:31]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And I mean, that's exactly it.
- [19:33]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
And. And of course, the thing of it is in that awful moment of realization where you realize you're at the wrong airport, beating yourself up doesn't get you to the right airport, you know? So, I mean, this is very easy to say, but it's sort of like, okay, well, now what? Here we are. Now what is my best move? What can I do to fix this? Perhaps how do I make amends if other people are involved? Trying not to get completely flooded in the emotions and then either shutting down, beating yourself up, letting other people beat you, you up, or getting defensive and blaming other people and just making it worse. How do you sort of get your head back on and then figure out what your next move is?
- [20:20]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. And staying out of comparison because we always kind of be like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I don't have my stuff together, but everyone else does. Which is awesome. So when you emailed me, you had sent me something you like. Yeah, we haven't really had that. Our path crossed too much yet. And it did make me think of the first ADHD conference I went to. I went to a presentation you were doing, and there was a board that put questions up on the board. Like, you just like, would like text them in and they'd go up and I was like, oh, this is neat. And I saw someone, like, had, you know, a censored swear word on there. I was like, oh, that's really neat that they have something that automatically censors that. I wonder how that works. And so I just tested it right, like, off the bat, I was just like. And sent in this question, does anyone have their shit together? And it, like, popped up on the board. I'm like, oh, it doesn't automatically censor it, huh?
- [21:08]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
That is so awesome.
- [21:10]
William Curb
Like, you took the time to actually.
- [21:11]
Chris Gethard
Then answer this question of, does everyone.
- [21:14]
William Curb
Have their shit together?
- [21:15]
Chris Gethard
And it is like, yeah, it's. No. No one always has all their shit together all the time. Like, there is. This is a continuum of like, yeah, sometimes I'm going to be. I'm going to be getting it, sometimes I'm not. It turned out to, like. I'm like, like, well, impulso could have worked out because it turned out to be something that a lot of people needed to hear, too, is because it does feel like everyone else has their shit together. You know, we're watching these people put on these presentations at the conference and they're like, oh, man, they. They know what they're doing. And then I talk to those people and they're like, man, I finished. I got my presentation in, like, five minutes before. And then I got my actual edits for my slides done, you know, the hour before the presentation.
- [21:50]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Sure. And that is definitely a real thing. We actually had a friend of mine, Kim Kensington, who's a psychologist in la, who's done some presenting for us, although not recently, but she actually did a presentation on. On kind of that. On how she has struggled a lot with her ADHD and also continues to.
- [22:14]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [22:15]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
It was. It was a more sort of honest, like, this is. This is what it's really like, as opposed to sometimes, you know, for presenters and certainly social media.
- [22:25]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
There's so much of, like, it used to be hard, but now I'm killing it, you know, which then just makes you feel like a total loser. It's like, great, you suck at life and also you suck at adhd. Way to go.
- [22:37]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. And it's. Yeah, it really is that, like, we need to understand that there are going to be exacerbating factors for our ADHD sometimes. Right now I'm having a ton of allergy problems from the spring, and I'm like, allergies are not a strictly ADHD thing, but they certainly exacerbate my symptoms because I'm not sleeping as well. I have something that's constantly a distraction where I'm like, oh, having to take allergy meds all the time. And it's being like, okay, well, this is going to be time of year. I have to step back a little. Bit and do a little bit less because I am getting. I just can't be as productive as I think I should be able to.
- [23:13]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And that's a hundred percent true.
- [23:15]
Interviewer/Host
Right. That.
- [23:16]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And again, not an ADHD thing. That's like a all people thing. And whether it's allergies or whatever else that, you know, impacting your ability either to function well or to feel good.
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Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Dr. Ari Tuckman
To sort of kind of acknowledge that.
- [23:33]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:34]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And maybe I need to change my expectations for myself a bit or maybe I just need to. I'm still going to do this stuff, but I'm going to change my expectation that it's going to go like it used to.
- [23:44]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:45]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
This is going to be more of a struggle. Fine. I'm just going to push through. I'm okay with it because of just whatever it is, what it is, or I just need to do it or I'm just. I don't have that luxury to cut myself to slack. But I know it's going to be harder than it normally would be and I'm going to kind of let that be what it is.
- [24:03]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. I find often what I need to really focus on in these times is just like, how am I setting myself up for success? Like, what are the. Am I setting up my environment well, what am I doing that's going to be good for me down the line? Like. Like making sure I'm blocking my distractions on my screens and all of those things.
- [24:20]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, yeah. And it, sometimes it's just one of those things where you need to then, I don't know, invest a bit more in some other places in order to maybe kind of balance a little bit, you know. So like for myself, you know, I don't always sleep great. That's sort of a struggle. Like, I'm pretty good about my habits, but my brain doesn't always sleep well despite that. So like, if I have a really bad night of sleep, you know, best thing I can do is like a really hard workout, you know, so I'll go down and sort of ride the bike in the basement and, you know, sweat it out and it just kind of clears that fog and the headache and it's just like a less bad day, you know. So kind of things like that of just sort of recognizing here is the thing I need to do to at least rescue what I can.
- [25:09]
Chris Gethard
One of the, my other favorite ones is realizing I can like reset my day whenever I need to to like be like, like, you know, like, oh, if I have like a morning routine that I didn't get through or, you know, there's things I know I can do through my day to make me feel better, you know, like, okay, make sure I have a good breakfast. And I'm like, if I need to do that at 2pm I can do that like an hour before my kids get home. And that's fine. At least I got that hour.
- [25:28]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And that's definitely a thing, right? Because of course, the temptation is to just grind through. Oh, I've got an hour. I gotta just. I gotta. You know, I don't have time to stop for to get something to eat.
- [25:40]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [25:40]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And you just kind of slog through but probably don't get as much done or at least the quality isn't what it could be. You know, so sometimes taking that time to just take a walk around or to grab a snack or to do whatever, Right. Like that sort of sharpening the saw kind of a thing. It kind of. That time gets returned, so to speak.
- [26:03]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, definitely. Because I also find when the grinding through, that was the strategy in college. I had bad. Because before I had my diagnosis and it made sense. It's like, oh, yeah, you just gotta do what you gotta do. And sometimes that means sitting in the library for five hours and not getting anything done. That's just how you do it. But then that's like, oh, yeah. But that also, like, stole from my future self. Like, I was using to make that grind happen. I was just. The next week, I'm also gonna be useless.
- [26:26]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean, the thing about it is, you know, I can understand why that college student did that, because it's sort of like, well, this is my best shot. This is. This is my best of the available options, you know, and it sort of worked, you know, like it did. I mean, you did manage to graduate, right? So I suppose it was effective right now, at what cost, of course, is, you know, the thing we're talking about here. But it's also a thing of like, maybe that is not how it had to be. You know, sometimes sort of knowing when to say when, go do something else and then come back and, you know, in two hours, do the two hours worth of work, or at least the hour and a half worth of work and get it done, you know, but that assumes you have some faith that if you leave, you'll come back. You know, which might have been the issue.
- [27:21]
Chris Gethard
But I know now I'm like, like building an accountability and building in being able to, like, yeah, go for a walk or something and being like, oh, this is going to actually set myself up to, to do what I need to do. Even if it doesn't, at least I got to go on a walk and that's somewhat productive anyways.
- [27:37]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Am I going for that walk? You're going to actually get more done total in that time than just banging your head against the wall.
- [27:46]
Chris Gethard
That's actually been killing me recently. Where I can't. I normally, that's my go to is to go for a walk because I'm like, I can't go outside. Allergies, broken up my N95s a couple times to walk around outside and be able to like, neighbors can judge how they want.
- [27:59]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
But yeah, right, exactly. Exactly.
- [28:02]
Chris Gethard
But yeah, so and so, yeah, yeah. I feel like doing those not pushing is one of those things that's been one of the hardest lessons for me to learn because yeah, sometimes I do need to, but not most of the time.
- [28:14]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing.
- [28:15]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [28:15]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Because like, persistence is admirable, you know, like, in general, that's an admirable trait. But there comes a point where persistence sort of bleeds into stubborn, you know, or rigid or stuck or something. And it's that thing of kind of knowing when to say when. But I don't know, I think that takes good self awareness, particularly in the moment of like, am I really getting things done or am I just spinning my wheels? Yeah.
- [28:41]
Chris Gethard
It kind of makes me think of when I did more sports, playing through injuries. Like, at the time it felt like the right choice. I'm like, oh, yeah, I can do this. And then I'm like, oh, I, I'm just hurting myself. And this is, it got to the point where I'm like, okay, I got injured. Just that's it, I'm done. I, I, I don't, I don't have the mental faculty to make this decision.
- [29:00]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, yeah. It's like, this is kind of hurting. I could stop now and take three days off or I can keep going and take a month off.
- [29:08]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. And I, I mean, it really relates to how people hit burnout now with they're like, oh, I have this idea of how much I should be able to produce. I'm going to keep going until this gets done. And it doesn't need to be that way.
- [29:20]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And it does kind of raise that bigger question, which I think, you know, everybody struggles with to some extent, but I think, especially if you have a history of kind of undiagnosed ADHD and really kind of struggling a lot more is kind of this question of, like, how good is good enough and who decides, you know, like, the other. Do I let other people define that? Do I define that for myself? How do I handle other people's disappointment when they're like, hey, I need you to get this to me, and you're like, I sorry, man, I can't do that, Or I choose not to even. Not that I can't. It's that I could, but I don't want to. You know, usually we say I can't because. As if, like, I'm being prevented by some external force that I can't control. But, you know. But how much do other people get to vote on that? You know, what is the right amount for you? There's always more rewards that come from being more productive, but there's also always more costs, you know, so is it worth it? Is it not worth it? You know, but to really. To, like, really actually think about it, right? To really sort of think about what do I want my life to look like now? What is worth it? What is less worth it? And to get even a little bit more kind of deep on this, you know, there's even this question of, like, do you even deserve to ask the question of, am I allowed to decide I don't want to do these things? Or is it a thing of, like, no, but I just have to because, you know, other people want me to.
- [30:48]
Chris Gethard
It is really humbling sometimes to, like, step back and be like, oh, if I didn't do this thing there, it'd be fine. Like, it feels really important, but I could also not do it. And that's okay. I can. I can choose my priorities here. And it's hard to do sometimes, but it is often worth it where I'm like. Because often when I'm, like, in that state of, like, I'm feeling burnt out, I feel like I. Like, I'm like, something's gonna give. And then I'm like, oh, just do less. Like, in something. But, like. Like, I'll, like, I'll be talking to my therapist and be like, so I'm doing that. I'm like. And really, I. Oh, I should just be doing less. That's. That's what I should do. I should just. Just do less, right?
- [31:25]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah. And, Chris, the thing about that is, you know, there's sometimes this thing of, like, no, I have to do it, all right? And then we just sort of plow ahead, and then, lo and behold, it turns out we don't actually have the time to do it all right? And then the stuff that doesn't get done just happens to be the stuff that wasn't done earlier, you know, so it's sort of like random external factors are deciding what didn't get done.
- [31:54]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [31:54]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
As opposed to, let me take a few minutes and actually think about it and make some wise, better choices about what doesn't get done, you know, as opposed to like this more roll of the dice kind of a situation.
- [32:08]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah, we have all these like things where we're like, well, yeah, the stuff that got, that I was doing earlier in the day, that got done because that's when I had the energy to do it. That was before I was feeling bad. Maybe I should put the things I really want to get done that part of the day.
- [32:22]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, I kind of call that just because it makes for a nice alliteration. Don't spend gold on garbage.
- [32:28]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [32:29]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
So in other words, that, that kind of deeper work, you know, Like I really need to focus on this. I need some time uninterrupted, like good energy to really sort of lock in and do this.
- [32:42]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [32:42]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Like that project deserves a special part of your day. And if you spend that or some of that day doing trivial things like loading the dishwasher or scrolling emails or whatever, right. Like you're using the best, most productive time on these. Like I could be half brain dead and I could still do it kind of stuff, you know, so like guarding that, that really good focus time and using it for the hardest things that you need to do.
- [33:14]
Chris Gethard
I'm also seeing this through this lens of two things that I need know I need to work on being like, then I know I'm going to have these brain dead times. Don't put things that I feel are important there. Like if I want to have good friendships, don't put that. The times that I'm only not functional, like that's not good for me or my friends. I fall into that trap of being like. Like even though these are things that are fun and give my life meaning, I'm just going to put them to the side and be, have them be the, the filler stuff.
- [33:39]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Sure. I'll get to it eventually. Yeah. It sort of reminds me there's a sex therapist and author presenter named Marty Klein. He has this line where he said sex is the thing Americans do when they're too tired to do anything else.
- [33:52]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [33:53]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And it's, it's exactly the same idea, right. It's like, honey, you are so important to me. Our relationship is so important to me. But I've got all these emails who return. So what if we hang out at, you know, 10:30 when we're both completely exhausted and have the least amount to give to each other? You know, so whether it's your friends, your relationship, your kid, your whatever.
- [34:15]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [34:15]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Like, is it getting your best time or your worst time?
- [34:18]
Chris Gethard
Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the interesting aspects of productivity that I've been trying to figure out is like, how do I kind of redefine what productivity is for me in being like, oh, this is more about doing the most important things that I want to do, less about checking things off on a list.
- [34:34]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, yeah. Because the problem with checking things off on a list is that list always, it keeps growing. And also, by the way, who even put them on the list?
- [34:42]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [34:42]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And is it even the things that are actually the most worth doing? So, you know, like, that's a part of it too. And even if you're just talking about something simple like a to do list or just more broadly about like the tasks that we take on, it's really easy to just sort of accept the tasks like, oh, I have to do this, I have to do that. But not investing that kind of cognitive effort of is this really a thing I want to do? Like, is this meaningful? Does it support some goal that's important to me? Is there a benefit to this? Is it really worthwhile?
- [35:18]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [35:18]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
And if we just kind of knee jerks say yes, because either we just don't stop to think or we feel like we have to, you can wind up agreeing to a lot of things and then it's that kind of scenario of maybe being busy because you're doing a lot, but not necessarily productive in the sense of I'm doing the things that matter to me, I'm moving my life forward, I'm making a difference in the world.
- [35:40]
Chris Gethard
And then we can also fall into the realm of meta productivity where we're working on our productivity and trying to be. And like some of that very important having a functional to do list.
- [35:51]
Interviewer/Host
Great.
- [35:52]
Chris Gethard
Make sure you have that don't have a to do list that you never use. It is easy to also be like, I'm being productive even though I'm not actually doing anything.
- [36:01]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Look, I'm doing things that look like I'm being productive. To me, this sort of like favorite example of this is when everybody was all hot on bullet journals and people spent all this time making these amazing, beautiful looking bullet journals, but they weren't getting things done with it.
- [36:18]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [36:19]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
It's like spending all your Time sharpening the chisel and not actually doing any woodworking.
- [36:24]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah.
- [36:24]
Chris Gethard
And I mean, there is some aspect of being like, if doing that first part will get you to the second part, absolutely do it. That's fine. But if the first part is hindering you from getting to the second part, that's when you got to really look at it. Some people like, yeah, I can't. I couldn't use my bullet journal if it didn't look beautiful.
- [36:41]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Great.
- [36:41]
Chris Gethard
Do that part to make it look beautiful and functional and everything you need. But if you're just doing it because that's your favorite part, you can still do that. That can be a fun thing for you to do. But don't make that be. Get in the way of what you want.
- [36:54]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Deal. Yeah. And I mean, and that's the thing, right?
- [36:56]
Interviewer/Host
If.
- [36:56]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
If fiddling with your bullet journal or your to do list or your whatever, you know, becomes its own procrastination, then, you know, my feeling on that is, do whatever you want. Just be honest about it, right? If you're like, yeah, my bullet journal is really more of an arts and crafts project, fine. Like, do it. Like, knock yourself out. My only thing is, don't, you know, don't say I'm doing this so I can get more done, because you're not actually getting more done done. And the only reason why I say it is not because I care what you're doing with your bullet journal, but you might care right at the end of the day or at the end of the hour or whatever when you look back. Or you can be like, God damn it, that was a total weight. Like, I didn't. I didn't freaking get to any of the stuff I needed to do.
- [37:42]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [37:42]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Like, if you're going to beat yourself up and feel bad about it, then I don't want that for you. On the other hand, if you're like, this thing looks awesome. Check this out, right? And you feel good about it, great.
- [37:54]
Chris Gethard
Yeah. Cause I know, like, when I'm finding myself being like, I can't get anything done if doing that mind shift to being like, well, you know what? I'm not going to get anything done this next couple of hours, I'm going to actually take this time off. That feels good. But if I spend those two hours pretending to work and trying to get there, that I feel awful, then. So it's really just kind of like reframing that in my mind, and it really helps.
- [38:17]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yep, exactly.
- [38:19]
Chris Gethard
So I was wondering if there were any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with.
- [38:22]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
I think what I would say is productivity is complicated, right? There's a lot that can happen in any given moment that affects our ability to do the thing that we want to do or even to figure out what the hell we want to do. So it is complicated. So in that sense, you know, cut yourself some slack when you get stuck. But I think what I would also say is, and therefore, when you feel like the wheels are turning, like, pull back a bit and like, okay, so wait, what is going on here? Like, what am I missing? If this should be working and it isn't, then why isn't it right? And that it's not voodoo and it's not like, you know, impossible, you know, math equation. It's just, you just need to kind of step back and do your best to figure it out and to try to figure out what you can do next.
- [39:12]
Chris Gethard
The book is the ADHD Productivity Manual and should be wherever you buy books.
- [39:16]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Yeah, it's good. I'm super psyched about it. I think there is a lot that's really great. I think the tone is just right and there's a lot of good information. And psychologist Marcy Caldwell, a friend of mine, did a bunch of awesome line drawing illustrations. So it just looks good too, which is kind of cool.
- [39:33]
Chris Gethard
Well, I'll definitely be looking out for it when it comes out. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show and I'm sure people will really enjoy.
- [39:40]
Dr. Ari Tuckman
Well, my pleasure. I'm glad our paths have officially crossed now.
- [39:49]
Chris Gethard
Thanks again to Ari for coming on.
- [39:51]
William Curb
The show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Be sure to check out Ari's new book, the ADHD Productivity Manual. But before you go, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tip.
- [40:01]
Interviewer/Host
1.
- [40:02]
William Curb
Make sure to include contextual details in your reminders. Put the address, building name, or even office location in the event title so you don't show up on the wrong time or in the wrong place. 2. Make sure to distinguish between simple and easy. Just because a task is straightforward, like taking out the trash or doing the dishes, doesn't mean it's easy to do, especially with ADHD. 3. Be strategic with your best focus times. Don't spend gold on garbage. Use your high focus hours for harder tasks, tasks not emails or unloading the dishwasher. Do less, but do so on purpose. Sometimes productivity means pulling back and intentionally choosing what not to do instead of just trying to do everything poorly. All right, that's it. Thanks for listening I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact or you can find me on bluesky@hackingyouradhd. If you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 228 and if you'd like even more hacking your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions which comes.
- [41:10]
Chris Gethard
Out every other week.
- [41:12]
William Curb
In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, or what I'm watching. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is going to vary there.
- [41:23]
Chris Gethard
If that sounds like something you're interested.
- [41:24]
William Curb
In, head over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. Up I also wanted to make sure.
- [41:31]
Chris Gethard
That you know about the Hacking youg.
- [41:32]
William Curb
ADHD Patreon, which you can find@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon I've gone with a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of the Patreon will receive all the same stuff. You can pay $0 or $2 or $10 and it's all the same. The only real difference coming from the roles are assigned on the Hacking youg ADHD discord, which you get access to from the Patreon.
- [41:51]
Chris Gethard
So if either of those things sound.
- [41:53]
William Curb
Like something you're interested in, head over to hackingyouradhd.com Patreon to sign up. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find@YouTube.com adhackingyourahd and finally, if you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of dad what did the drummer call his twin daughters? Anna 1 Anna 2.
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Zoe
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Chris Gethard
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