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- [00:01]
Amazon Music Ad Voice
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- [00:17]
Ray Jacobson
Oh hey.
- [00:18]
T-Mobile Salesperson
Welcome to gift wrapping.
- [00:19]
William Curb
Whoa.
- [00:19]
T-Mobile Salesperson
Soy saldana.
- [00:20]
T-Mobile Customer
Hey, can you wrap these please?
- [00:22]
Ray Jacobson
Wow.
- [00:22]
T-Mobile Salesperson
IPhone 17s.
- [00:23]
T-Mobile Customer
You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new Center Stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.
- [00:32]
T-Mobile Salesperson
I only got my mom a robe.
- [00:34]
T-Mobile Customer
Well, it's better than socks.
- [00:35]
T-Mobile Salesperson
So I have to trade in my old phone, right?
- [00:38]
T-Mobile Customer
No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.
- [00:43]
T-Mobile Salesperson
Incredible.
- [00:44]
T-Mobile Customer
In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my Aunt Rosa.
- [00:47]
William Curb
Forget that.
- [00:47]
T-Mobile Customer
Aunt Liz will be jealous.
- [00:48]
T-Mobile Salesperson
Sounds like my family drama.
- [00:50]
Ray Jacobson
Oh, I got it.
- [00:51]
T-Mobile Customer
I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with hey, where are you going?
- [00:54]
William Curb
To T Mobile.
- [00:55]
T-Mobile Salesperson
The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cell stores with 24 monthly bill credits and four eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers bought on pay plus taxes fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel contact US Finance Agreement 256GB $830 required. Visit t mobile.com.
- [01:21]
Podcast Host William Curb
Welcome to Hacking your adhd. I'm your host William Curb, and I have adhd. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team. This week I'm joined by Ray Jacobson, journalist, ADHD expert, and host of hyperfocused@understood.org to talk about how we make sense of ADHD when it feels like it's everywhere. Ray has spent over a decade reporting on mental health and neurodiversity, and she brings that blend of research, lived experience, and sharp humor that makes a big idea actually relatable. And this was honestly one of my favorite episodes that I've recorded this year. While Ray and I were brainstorming ideas that two ADHD podcasters could talk about with, you know, some authority, I think we hit on a very salient topic the over pathologizing of ADHD within the community. While we love to find all the things that are from our adhd, it's also true that not everything is because of our adhd. In our conversation today, we dig into the ways ADHD often gets pathologized, how everything from losing your keys to getting a song stuck in your head can get blamed on adhd, and why that actually makes it harder to understand what's really going on. We get into the idea of symptoms, of symptoms, the tricky overlap between ADHD and other conditions like depression and anxiety, and why community spaces like Reddit can both help and hurt when it comes to self diagnosis. And of course we also go down a few very ADHD side paths like clutter, shame spirals, and why having too many pens is basically a personality trait at this point, if you'd like to follow along with the Show Notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 258 alright, keep on listening to find out how your clutter might actually be a coping mechanism.
- [03:03]
William Curb
I'm so excited to have you here. I've been. We already had fun talking before this because I got all the fun Legos behind me and stuff which if you're listening, I have this on YouTube now so you could see the backgrounds now. So how about we get started? Just hearing a little bit about you and about Hyperfocus.
- [03:18]
Ray Jacobson
I'm excited to be here. I'm sorry I like I said before, I have a cold and when I have a cold on top of my adhd, it makes me feel like I'm like sort of underwater a little bit, like I'm calling up from the bottom of a well. So you're like, you asked me the most normal question you can ask a person and I'm like could you repeat the question like that? That's the level of functioning I have to, which is great. As a podcast guest, I'm sure you're really psyched to have me here in this state.
- [03:42]
William Curb
It's a very common ADHD state where you're just like, could you repeat the question with like. The question is who are you?
- [03:47]
Ray Jacobson
And they're like what's your name?
- [03:48]
William Curb
Yeah. And it's like oh yeah, wait, what was the question again?
- [03:52]
Ray Jacobson
Just, just one more time this time. My name is Ray Jacobson and I am a lot of different things, but what I do now is focused entirely on getting to write about, report on, focus on and podcasts on ADHD, which I have. I am working@understood.org and I host there a podcast called Hyperfocus where we do basically initially whatever I wanted. But it turned out that letting someone with ADHD decide any type of episode, whatever it was all the Time resulted in a pretty eclectic mix. So now we're more focused on my background, which is journalism. So we're covering a lot of what's in the news, a lot of. Of research that's coming out about ADHD and neurodiversity. We're very kind of focused on making sure that this stuff that feels really opaque to our community is made clearer and more understandable and easier to digest. That's the short version, but I think it's pretty good, right?
- [04:46]
William Curb
Yeah. I mean, I do know the. Like, when you have the option to do anything, it gets very easy to go into anything with adhd, although sometimes that it's also really nice to have that structure of like, oh, this is what we're doing, and I can just sit down. I don't have to be like, anything.
- [05:01]
Ray Jacobson
Yeah, anything can be a lot. Especially when you're like, Well, I have 8 million ideas. How exactly would I bring those to fruition?
- [05:09]
William Curb
Yeah. And so one of the things that we were talking about before the show is that which I think fits in with this idea of anything is this pathologizing of ADHD and how we find so many things that people are like, oh, that's adhd. And, you know, like, you have someone come up to you and be like, hey, you know, is this an ADHD symptom? And they're like, I get songs stuck in my head all the time. And you're like, well, no. I mean, it can kind of be like a symptom of a symptom, but no.
- [05:35]
Ray Jacobson
And I don't know if you experience. It's like, I hear that question a lot. Because if you do this work, if you're visible in this, where people are gonna be like, hey, I think I have adhd. Here's my question. And what I like to fall back on is I have a master's in counseling. I don't practice. I have a background in ADHD writing about adhd, but I'm not a doctor. And if somebody comes to me with things that are like, I have a song stuck in my head, or, like, I can't stop scrolling on my phone, part of me is like, well, a lot of music is really catchy, and phones are designed to make you keep scrolling. However, that doesn't mean you don't have adhd. It just means that those two things aren't symptoms of it. And if you're concerned about that, are there other things that are going on that made you ask me this question? It can't just be this, like, I Feel like there's always more behind the question when you get it. But I also am always reluctant to shut anybody down. But I also, I want to remind them that, like, I can't necessarily provide that type of help. Do you experience that?
- [06:28]
William Curb
Yeah, I was. I mean, the song example came from, like, three weeks ago when I was at the phone store and a guy there asking me. So they're like, oh, what do you do? I'm going to do this podcast. Oh, is this a symptom of adhd? I feel like I have it. I'm like, okay, yeah, no. But I often do like that idea of symptoms, of symptoms being kind of, like, things to look for. Because often, what's the exact. Like, misplacing your keys Not a symptom of adhd, but our forgetful nature does make that more likely.
- [06:58]
Ray Jacobson
Yeah. Well, I feel like misplacing your keys every now and again, not adhd. Probably misplacing your keys over and over and over and over to the point that the locksmith knows your name. That might be to something different. Like, all of these things to me, and this is, like, one of my issues with a lot of the, like, pathologizing of adhd. Like, traits that aren't necessarily adept. Like, it wouldn't necessarily mean you have ADHD in any specific way, is that it dilutes a lot of what you do need to know to find out if this is something that you could benefit from help for. Right. Like, if you lose your keys a couple times in an unbelievably busy week because your daughter was sick and the. The news was stressful and you have 16 people calling you because there's a huge project at work that's just overload, and everybody experiences that. If you're experiencing this every day for months or years or your entire life, in my personal case, that's a problem. And that's something where you do want to seek help. But if it's like, oh, I lost my keys, maybe I have adhd, it's like, well, sure, maybe. But is this something that's, like, causing your life to be unmanageable for you? Because that's the question. That is the actual question behind the question. Right. Like, it's not. Does having this, like, small issue mean that I have adhd? It's. Is this small issue something that's so repetitive that it's caused me genuine difficulty?
- [08:24]
William Curb
Yeah. And it's. And, yeah, and also, like, as a chronic condition. So, you know, when I was. We were starting up, I was telling you that you Know, I was a little out of it today and that's because I realized I don't have my documents for an appointment I have later. And I'm like, I can't find them.
- [08:39]
Ray Jacobson
I'm feeling.
- [08:40]
William Curb
And all I could while I was like searching through where it could be, I was just kept thinking, I can't believe I did this to myself again. And it was like, oh God, I.
- [08:48]
Ray Jacobson
Know that so well.
- [08:48]
William Curb
I did it again. And I'm just like, oh man, that is that ADHD shame there. And it doesn't help that I know that it's not helpful because it's also just like I thought I had this put together and I was just like, oh, it's not where I thought it was.
- [09:04]
Ray Jacobson
I have a question for you. Do you think people who don't have ADHD had that reaction when they forget or lose something? Because when I do it, I go down your road. Like, I can't believe I'm doing this again. I can't believe I screwed up like that immediate like slip slide right down into self loathing. As much as I understand why it happens, as much as I have learned how to talk about it and try to talk myself out of it, it's still the first mental move after something happens. And I genuinely don't know if people who haven't experienced this in the way that we have have that response. Like, do you think that that's everyone or do you think that's mostly ADHD people?
- [09:41]
William Curb
I mean, I think a big part of the shame response comes from the fact that I'm like, this is happening again. This is something I should have foreign seen happening. This is something I could have prepared for where if you don't have that like lived experience of this happening again and again and again, like, you know, I'm 40 now, I should know better. Is there. And if you don't have that built up wall of shame, then it's. You don't. It's not. I don't think you have that same reaction.
- [10:11]
Ray Jacobson
That's what I think, the same. But then I gotta wonder, cause it's like, I don't know, I'd like to meet the person. And then also, and I mean this in the least murderous, disgusting way that I can say it, like open up their skull and look at their brain and understand how this works. The person who, when they don't have the papers for the appointment, when they forget their passport on the way to the airport, Although everybody finds that stress. So maybe bad example, but you know what I'M saying when they make that mistake is like, you know what? Everybody makes mistakes. And I just was so busy today, I'm just going to call ahead and tell them I don't have the papers. What can we do about it? Like, who is that person and how does their brain get there? Because I would like a little of that juice.
- [10:51]
William Curb
Yeah. Although I don't. I don't think they have quite that reaction for me. I just think they're like, oh, man, this is awful. But not the, wow, how can I be this awful as a person?
- [11:02]
Ray Jacobson
Yes. Yeah, it's true. They don't immediately blame themselves, although I feel like I think there are some. There's some contingent because I've seen them in. In the wild a few times. The people who do have that, like, now I'm doing hand gestures. I'm sorry. I have this little fidget toy to keep me from doing so many hand gestures because I am. I have ADHD and I'm from New York City, so I do a lot of moving of my hands. But I feel like there are people who have been through whatever the process that you need to go through is to not have that, like, intense reaction. And simply, maybe not every time, but, like, most times deal with that kind of setback from a place of rational response rather than, like, catastrophization or self loathing or whatever it is. And I know, you know, that, like, everything we're taught to try is supposed to lead us there. Right. But sometimes I take comfort in the fact that although our responses are more extreme because of our ADHD and our history, like, every time, every single time, Liam, that I'm going to the airport, I have a nightmare that I forgot my passport before I get there. Every time, like clockwork, to the point that it is like a part of my flight routine. Now, I don't think everybody has those, but I do think that there is some place of, like, a middle ground where they're like, I'm 40. I can't believe I did this. But then there's these people who are like, all right, you know, this stuff happens. Let's figure it out. And I want to go there. I want to go to there.
- [12:22]
William Curb
Yeah. And I think part of it is just the, like, I'm like, oh, if I had been more organized, not in this instant, but just in general. Even if, like, I have, like 12 different piles of paper that I have to look through because I'm like, maybe it's one of those. It's probably not. But I have to look through them. And it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, if I had just not let things get to this stage. If I had been more organized for. If I had been chronically organized, things would be so much better.
- [12:53]
Ray Jacobson
I love that. Chronically organized would be a great state.
- [12:56]
William Curb
To have without the OCD aspect of it.
- [12:59]
Ray Jacobson
Yes. A healthily chronically organized person. Not something I've ever found a way to do. You do. I mean, I. I get into. I don't know about you, but I get into periods of organization where I'm like, everything is great. You know, maybe maximum a month. This lasts of, like, everything. You know, a place for everything and everything in its place. And that's wonderful. And I feel like I have ascended to a higher plane of existence and I'm just doing so well. And then, you know, it starts with the misplaced sock and it all comes tumbling down. I haven't figured out, like, the. To the chronically organized point how to find that groove that some people seem to be in so naturally. And I think that is because of adhd. But to be fair, I know a lot of people who have ADHD who aren't the type of disorganized that I am or that it sounds like you are. So it is possible for our brains, but it isn't something that I have ever been able to, like, see the path forwards.
- [13:54]
William Curb
Yeah. And I think there's, like, building this right system so that you can get there. Downsizing the amount of stuff you have is off. Obviously, one of the things, because I'm like, oh, well, it's like those drawers weren't bursting with stuff that I don't need but can't find a way to get rid of. I'm like, oh, yeah. Because I. So I'm thinking back to. I went to boarding school when I was in middle school, and I didn't have, like, any stuff in my room. It was so organized because there was nothing to get disorganized. In fact, I had the teachers come in and be like, are you actually living here? And I'm like, I don't. I go home on the weekends. I just am here five days a week. Wow.
- [14:36]
Ray Jacobson
What was that like to be like, in an uncluttered space?
- [14:40]
William Curb
In general? That was nice because it was just like, I could. I didn't have to ever look for anything. It was either. In my backpack, my desk had two comic books in it. And, you know, I had a computer that I used, and that was like, that was it. And it was nice. To be. This is all I need. And sometimes I'm like, I should go back to that. And then other times I'm like, but I like my stuff.
- [15:01]
Ray Jacobson
Sentimental items.
- [15:02]
William Curb
And I need all my Legos. Yeah.
- [15:05]
Ray Jacobson
What About Todd with 3Ds, how will you keep him? I know what you mean. There have been times in my life, usually when I've just moved to a new apartment or I'm just moving out of an old place where all the superfluous things are briefly gone. And it feels like you could completely see that as a life. But. And I don't think again to the pathologizing of things that aren't necessarily related. I think a lot of people do this for various reasons, but I. I like my stuff. I don't have like, you know, a billion things, but I don't like to get rid of things. All right, question for you, because I do wonder if this is an ADHD thing or if I'm participating in exactly what we're suggesting people not do. I don't have a very good memory. I never have. And it really, it's, you know, I'm forgetful in the ADHD way. But in general, like, I will sometimes have conversations with people and they will describe to me entire things that we've done together, and I will have no memory of it at all. And my sister, conversely, has a fantastic memory. She remembers every family thing. I'm very grateful for her because otherwise I don't think I would know what happened for most of my children childhood. But I like to keep these little objects around because they're like talisman. They're like touchstones for me where if I look at something that jogs my memory, then I have the memory. It's helpful to have something that makes that part of my brain act up, like it lights up. And then I remember the middle school friend who passed the note or the day my daughter drew the thing that I've kept in my dresser drawer for now, five years, you know, and it's not. I do worry that without those things, I wouldn't have the memories that go with them.
- [16:41]
William Curb
The thing that comes up, a friend of mine recently asked me about. They're like, oh, yeah, do you remember this high school talent show thing you did? And I'm like, no. And there's this video of me with these other people, and I'm in drag doing Tarzan and Jane song, and I'm like, what? I feel like I should remember that.
- [17:01]
Ray Jacobson
I'd like to see this video. 1, 2. Exactly where you're like, how could I have forgotten that? And there's physical evidence. And you're like, yeah.
- [17:09]
William Curb
And my friend was just like, yeah, we have the, like, we just found this video.
- [17:11]
Ray Jacobson
And I'm like, but without the video, you wouldn't have the memory. I mean, granted a video, I suppose we're old enough that for a long time videos were tangible objects, but not so much now. But you know, I do worry about that and the, the mass decluttering that is sort of required to become chronically organized. If you lose some of these things that provide you, I don't know, even the word, like the memory structure, like the memory palace that you live in. And for me, and I do think this is partially an ADHD thing. Without them, I don't think I have access to all of that time that is like sort of kept in the object.
- [17:49]
William Curb
Yeah. I mean, I do think there are workarounds to that. Like, that's like, I mean, that is something that we are known for doing this like, very visual thing, out of sight, out of mind stuff. So we're like, oh yeah, I have that important thing I need to do. I'm going to put that right there on my desk. So that's the first thing I see. So I remember it right away. But it's not a very good system either. And I think journaling and doing that kind of thing can be a good workaround for it. I've got this neat one line a day journal that is like a five year journal. And so every day it just has five entries. One for 2020-2021-2022-2023, 2025.
- [18:32]
Ray Jacobson
I think you're the second person in a week to tell me about this. To be fair, I cannot remember who the first person was to the memory point.
- [18:38]
Podcast Host William Curb
Yeah.
- [18:39]
William Curb
So I write a sentence or two about the day and then next year I get to be like, oh yeah, I talked with that person or we went to the pumpkin patch or any number of things. Now I'm not great about doing like, I have a lot of years where I'm like, I didn't do that for three months in a row or, but I'm on my fourth year of it. So there are a lot of entries now. And it is a really neat way to like be like, oh yeah, I don't have to just physically hold on to everything. I can kind of get rid of stuff and put it into a form that like makes it easier for me to remember it. Because, I mean, I'd also don't want to Be, you know, go another 40 years of collecting stuff in my house and then being like, I have objects that now I don't have memories of, but I know they're. They were supposed to be sentimental.
- [19:24]
Ray Jacobson
Yeah, no, it's true. I, I feel like that is kind of the refuge for this stuff is like creating souvenirs of your life that you can keep in a smaller box. Like, it doesn't have to be the whole object. It doesn't have to be, you know, the record. It can be a picture of the record or whatever it is. Like it's possible to preserve things in a way that is less chaotic and less just space consuming. And I think that's like, that's the kind of project that for me, when we talk about like pathologizing ADHD stuff, it's helpful for me to see that as, as useful as like keeping a planner. You know, like the clue symptoms, the things that are symptoms of a symptom. A lot of those are the things that my systems are built to manage. Like, of course I have, you know, they all go to a larger executive functioning or organizational thing. I suppose that's part of executive functioning, but it's more that they're their reactions to my very much. Day to day symptom of a symptom challenges, like having too many sentimental items. You know, like your journal is in your way, a way to manage that symptom of a symptom.
- [20:37]
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- [21:09]
William Curb
And then there's also just the repeated objects kind of thing where I'm like, oh, I have recently collected a lot of my pens into one space. And I'm like, this is too many pens.
- [21:20]
Ray Jacobson
I have the same problem. What did you do about it?
- [21:23]
William Curb
I put them in a box.
- [21:25]
Ray Jacobson
I have them in a tote bag. That's superior. I think your box is better than a tote bag.
- [21:30]
William Curb
Yeah, but it's, it's. I'm like. And I'm like. Because I'm like, well, I don't want to get. They're still good pens, right?
- [21:36]
Ray Jacobson
Yeah, exactly. They still bright. So what if I want to draw with that color, but if I can't find another pen? That. Honestly, I do think. And I guess in some ways we've veered from the original topic, as people with our type of brains do, into the ADHD and clutter topic, which is really just always precedent, you know, always. It's always prescient. It's always has value. But I think a lot of times when I have the repeated object thing, it's because I don't trust myself to have only one. It's because I assume that that one will get lost and it will get lost at the worst possible time for it to get lost. Like, if I could have a duplicate passport without being a spy, I would.
- [22:13]
William Curb
It would be fantastic.
- [22:15]
Ray Jacobson
Exactly. Note to spies in general, this is a service you could provide for people with adhd. Just saying.
- [22:22]
William Curb
We would love it. But yeah, I mean, but I do think. I mean, it's still kind of on topic here because clutter is that symptom of a symptom. It's not. ADHD doesn't inherently make you more clutter prone. It makes you more likely to forget things, more likely to have the executive function difficulties of putting things where they go. So you're doing the. You're not putting it away, you're just putting it down.
- [22:44]
Ray Jacobson
That, I mean, I guess it's true. It's all sort of like, I mean, with everything with adhd, it's all part of one larger whole that is manageable in some areas and not manageable in others. It's what makes it such an interesting and complicated type of brain to have. Because there are certain things where my systems have 100% working wonderfully like they are really. They're saving whatever that trouble from happening is. It just. I'm no longer struggling in that area in that way. My symptom is not causing me challenge in a way that it used to, or it's just something that was never a huge issue for me in the first place. Like, you know, we were all different. Right? But these things like the journal, like the memory boxes, all these things. That is obviously a space where it's still really hard for both you and I. But I feel like one of the things with the symptom of a symptom is this adhd, is it not adhd? Things that makes it challenging is that variety. We all have different challenges. And so it does kind of make it feel if you're unacquainted with it or if you're maybe just not sure. You're on the fence about do you have adhd? Do you? Not that like almost anything that's causing you trouble could maybe be adhd. And that is where I think we get into a much stickier, more challenging side to this.
- [24:04]
William Curb
Yeah. And then to add on to it the just level of comorbidities that ADHD has and you're like one of the things I see very commonly. So you have things groups like the like adhd, Reddit, where there's like, you know, a million people there. And so someone can be like, hey, is this an ADHD symptom? I'm experiencing this. And you can have like, you know, 100 replies of people being like, that's me too. But you don't know if they also, you know, like one. Examples I think of are often like, since autism is so common with ADHD and you have a lot of like people being like, that's an autistic symptom, not an ADHD symptom. But if you look at it from people online, they're like, no, it's both.
- [24:47]
Ray Jacobson
It's the problem of communal diagnosis over specific diagnosis. I also feel like one of the things that I think about when you bring that up is we've interviewed, I don't know, in my life, I've probably interviewed over a hundred clinicians about ADHD over 15 or 20 years that I've been doing this. And one of the questions that comes up a lot around comorbidities is comorbidities like anxiety or depression and how do you treat them? One of the big questions people have is do you treat the ADHD first? If it's the distress from the ADHD is fueling depression or do you repeat the depression first and then deal with the ADHD 100% of the time? Clinicians will say you 100% treat the depression first. You cannot get to the ADHD before you deal with the depression because that is the more threatening, more overwhelming, more life limiting issue in that comorbidity. Then you get to the adhd and I think about things like the clutter problem. Right. Like in my life when I have been depressed and people I know that is not the time where your house is usually the cleanest. Right. And I think it would be very easy to go on Reddit to go on TikTok and say like, oh my, you know, I can't get my house clean, I'm so exhausted, I can't finish anything. And someone's going to be like, ADHD 100 man, you're good and sure, that can be part of it, but it also might mean that we're missing something more important or not more important, but equally important. And that needs to be addressed quickly or more intensely right away.
- [26:14]
William Curb
Yeah, well, and one of the ideas I've seen about this idea too, of like, what's driving the symptoms too, is really important. So you're like, oh, I think I got this from Dr. Ricardo Alverdia where he's like, who's driving the bus? Yeah, he's fantastic. But like, this idea of who's driving the bus on the symptoms, like, is the clutter coming from the ADHD side of things? Is it coming from depression? And if you're trying to fix the clutter, you need to know who's driving the symptoms.
- [26:47]
Ray Jacobson
Exactly. And I mean, of course he's going to say it, right? He always does. But I think that kind of thing makes this type of sort of speculative. Hey, I have this thing going on. Do you guys relate type of back and forth a little bit trickier, right? Because of course there's value in finding community. And of course, getting an accurate diagnosis is not as simple as just saying you should get an accurate diagnosis. Because as anybody who's ever tried to interact with this system knows, it can be challenging, it can be costly, it can be uncovered by insurance. There's a lot of challenges that can come into the way of actually getting appropriate diagnosis. Right. Which is the reason so many people turn to the Internet, but also for community and for the chance to say like, hey, does anyone relate? Because not feeling alone has a lot of value, especially when you're like, God, I am like the one of these things that is not like the others. And I've spent my entire life being that. And then all of a sudden someone's saying like, no, no, no, no, no. We're all like this. It's okay. Welcome home. That feels really good. But there is this other side to it where you're no longer able, you know, without that piece, where somebody like Dr. Olivia is stepping in and saying like, okay, let's slow down and figure out who's driving the bus. There can be a tricky thing that arises where like, yeah, you might be getting validation, but are you getting the treatment and help you really need to overcome what's causing you genuine deep distress.
- [28:13]
William Curb
So I know, like, self diagnosis is so tricky because, yes, it's very. Makes it accessible to people. Like, because, you know, I mean, I have talk to people that live in countries that like, yeah, we don't even recognize ADHD as a condition in my country, and I'm like, yeah, that makes it very hard to get treatment. But at the same time, yeah, if you're treating the wrong thing, it's really.
- [28:34]
Ray Jacobson
Tricky, really hard to get better. It's really hard to feel the improvement that you're looking for from that. I mean, it's one of these irritating, not irritating, I mean, genuinely awful things where it's. There is no simple answer, right? Like cellophane community diagnosis is, is not a panacea. But interacting with the medical establishment for a million reasons deeply dependent on where you live, including state to state, is very tricky. And it doesn't necessarily mean you'll even get a good diagnosis because it depends on the healthcare provider. It's something that I feel like is like sort of the secret backtalk of the entire ADHD diagnosis conversation, which is like, this isn't as simple as we want it to be. But it is important to have a conversation like this where you can call out the fact that just because something seems like it's ADHD doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is or that's all it is.
- [29:26]
William Curb
One of the fallbacks I try to go back to for people is I'm like, sometimes it doesn't even matter. Is what you're doing helping? Are you doing things that can help you manage your day that are not, you know, you're not like abusing drugs or, you know, that kind of thing? Like, there are things you can be like, yeah, this is definitely helping, but it's like, oh, that is not helping. I think one of the symptoms of symptoms idea for me is I have a lot of anxiety about being late to things and, oh, yeah, anxiety is that symptom of a symptom. It's not. I don't have a lot of anxiety about a lot of other things, but being late I have a ton of anxiety about. And so, yeah, so treating the. The anxiety there, not the right call, that wouldn't help, but helping build systems so that I don't. Don't have to worry about being late to things. That works a lot better. Treating for the adhd. And so it's, can I do things that will help my brain regardless of what's going on? What the. Because I mean, when you go down to it, ADHD is a collection of symptoms that this is what happens. But it could also be, even if it's the exact same symptoms, you could be like, oh, this is, you know, CPTSD or depression. It could be anxiety. It could Be something else. And you're like, oh, that's why we want clinicians involved.
- [30:38]
Ray Jacobson
Yeah, well that's, that's. To me the tricky thing is like some of it is that self manageable stuff. I'm back to the hand gestures, can't help it. But some of it is the stuff that we can see and try to build systems around and try to, you know, like I too have a lot of anxiety about being late from decades and decades of being late for literally everything and having all the fallout that comes with that. But you can do something with that knowledge, right? Like, I can acknowledge that that is one of my most prominent challenges and do things to mitigate it, like show up half an hour early for everything. Is it great for me?
- [31:16]
William Curb
No.
- [31:16]
Ray Jacobson
But it does take away the anxiety and it does mean that I'm no longer late for almost anything anymore. It's challenging though. I think when you get to the stuff that you were talking about afterwards, which is the stuff that does need other people to step in or other systems to step in for help, like CPTSD is not something you should be trying to system your way out of. There are things that may help enlighten the load for a little while, but that is something where there's a lot of people who are blaming themselves for not being able to just like shake it off or like figure out a way out of the tunnel. And it's, that's not what it is. You know, like, I think that's what makes this so challenging. It's like ADHD does not exist in a vacuum. Like we said. It is a constellation of symptoms which can make it hard to pin down. And it also, and I think you were the person who said this to me. It brings friends. We have all these ride alongs in the bus who all want to drive, you know, because who doesn't want to drive a bus? And it's really tricky. It's really tricky to know what are the things I can work through on my own, what are the things where I need help and how do I know the difference?
- [32:16]
William Curb
Yeah. And it's just so many things that are also like unexpected. Like when we were talking earlier, the hypermobility being something that's a very common comorbidity. And I'm just like. When I saw that, I was like, that's not real.
- [32:30]
Ray Jacobson
And I was like, that was my reaction too.
- [32:34]
William Curb
And then I was like looking more. I'm like, oh, there's studies about that. And I'm like, oh, maybe that explains why I've dislocated my shoulders like more than 10 times.
- [32:43]
Ray Jacobson
Okay, okay.
- [32:46]
William Curb
That's. Okay. That's interesting.
- [32:52]
Ray Jacobson
Absorbing the knowledge and bringing it into the fold. It's very. It's. That kind of stuff is so fascinating though, like the hypermobility piece or. I think I was talking about this a while ago. We interviewed this woman, Dr. Sandra Coy, who is a psychiatrist psychologist out of Sweden, and she conducted a study on women and heart issues related to ADHD which found that women who have ADHD have significantly higher levels of heart challenges. Heart disease, which is like, you know, as a woman with adhd, pretty unnerving, but also something that, like, I would never put those things together, you know, and when she. I sort of saw some rumbling about it and was like, really? And then you read it and you're like, oh, okay. You know, because it's. Some of it's stuff where you can be like, oh, wow, I did dislocate my shoulder a lot when I was a kid. And other things. You're like, oh, it's nice to know what I need to be aware of for the future. These comorbidities that are invisible and genuinely dangerous. Yeah.
- [33:48]
William Curb
Because, yeah, it's awful that I've dislocated my shoulder slapping my friend on the butt. But like, that's not the. The worst outcome that I could have.
- [33:58]
Ray Jacobson
That I have to say. That is a little funny.
- [34:00]
William Curb
Oh, it is.
- [34:01]
Ray Jacobson
It was.
- [34:01]
William Curb
Even at the time or just like, that's how that just happened.
- [34:06]
Ray Jacobson
I like that. Yeah.
- [34:07]
William Curb
But yeah, I mean, I was thinking. I was talking to someone recently about Dr. Barkley's study that like, showed like, lower life expects expectancy for with adhd, but not because of adhd, but because of this symptoms of symptom. Things where you're not taking care of yourself, you're not being conscientious in all that aspects.
- [34:23]
Ray Jacobson
I mean, there's so much that goes with it. I mean, I don't know about you, but one of the challenges for me in terms of health and ADHD is that I hate making phone calls. I hate it. I hate to call anyone. I don't even like calling the people I love. I don't want to pick up phone and press any button. I don't like it at all. You know who you have to call on the phone? Doctors. And then you have to show up on time and remember to do the digital paperwork or the regular paperwork or whatever it is. And all of that stuff to me for a long time was like, maybe I don't Feel sick, so maybe I just won't go. And at some point, that is no longer a viable choice. I mean, not that it ever was. But these kinds of things, the symptoms of symptoms can cause genuine harm. But at the same time, when someone's like, well, I have a song stuck in my head, you're like, oh, come on.
- [35:09]
William Curb
Yeah, like, that's. And I mean, I think that's. I mean, this is also comes back to this conversation of, like, people talking about adhd, you know, as the strength or as disorder, and it being like, okay, I can see there's, like, the strength approach. But there are chronic things with ADHD that make it, like, a issue, too, that you need to be taking into account. Because, I mean, it's a disorder. It is something where I have problems living my life the way I want to live because of my condition.
- [35:44]
Ray Jacobson
This. I'm glad you said that, because this is something that I feel like is, you know, when you're, like, in a conversation with someone and you have a thing you want to say, and so you sort of try to, like, draw them to your little area where you'll get to, like, stand on your soapbox like that. This is my soapbox thing. Not so much in this conversation, but almost all the time, because I find it very frustrating to the symptoms of symptoms point when we get those questions that are like, hey, like, I, you know, like, I. I don't know, lost one of my socks or I was late to something, or usually it's more like I got so spaced out that I couldn't do this and. Or mostly phone stuff. Like, a lot of stuff is, like, I'm paying too much attention to the Internet. I feel like my attention Spanish for all this stuff. The question that I want to ask, and I try not to, because, like I said, I don't like to, like, gatekeep or keep people from asking more questions that they might need to delete themselves further down a path of whatever it is, whether it's figure out they have ADHD or simply, like, understanding why they're doing a behavior they don't like or whatever it is is. Am I allowed to swear on the show? Has it fucked your life up or not? Because that's the real thing, right? Like, when you cross, like, if you look at the dsm, what it is, is significant impairment is the thing that means you have this or you have maybe traits of it, but not the disorder piece. And I know a lot of people have differing feelings, and understandably so all the sides to me are Genuinely understandable. I go with disorder because for me, that's what it has been like. I failed out of high school. I failed out of multiple colleges. I took drugs. I had significant challenges with depression and anxiety, postpartum depression, which we now know is a huge issue for women with adhd. Something else that we don't talk about that much. This has been, for me, job loss, challenges with family and friends issues, being able to live my life, all of the things that come on the plate, right? And some wonderful things. Like, I get to be here today talking to you and, you know, enjoying the fact that this is a neurotype also and that it comes with some wonderful things. But I don't. I don't like it when people throw out a bunch of kind of like, ugh, what a draggy day kind of symptoms and are like, maybe I have adhd. And you're like, okay, you know, like, I don't think people do that about other things in the same way. Although I do know a friend with OCD who's just talking about how if she hears somebody else saying they're so ocd, she's going to flip, you know, because they, like, organize their sock drawer or something. You know, this thing that's caused her immense difficulty throughout her life. But to me, there is this thing where you're, like, kind of stuck when you get those questions, because I find it to be like a. Two roads diverged, right? Like, you can be like, okay, like, let's walk down this path together. And then the other part of me occasionally is like, shut the fuck up.
- [38:29]
William Curb
Yeah. Like, this is. This is awful some days.
- [38:34]
Ray Jacobson
Yes, this is awful some days.
- [38:36]
William Curb
I mean. And I think that's part of the thing, too. It's like, you're. Some days you're like, yeah, I'm doing fine. I'm doing great. I'm. I'm cruising. And then some days you go, this. This. This is what ADHD is. This is the day. This. That everything happens.
- [38:50]
Ray Jacobson
You know, on the show on Hyperfocus, I ask every guest who we have who has ADHD this question, because I am obsessed with it. And it's very interesting because these are all people who are, you know, in the community, happily talking about adhd, very interested in it, very engaged with it, you know, and I feel the same. But whenever I ask this question, and I'm going to ask it to you, if you could get rid of your adhd, would you do it?
- [39:14]
William Curb
I don't know is always what I come back to. And I think because I'm like, how much of my personality is based around this? How much is it. Because I'm like, there's got to be some aspects of me that are just me, but my experience, like, do I like myself enough to be. Still be myself, or is that just existential dread that I'd stop existing?
- [39:38]
Ray Jacobson
That's my issue, too. I. Because there's certain days where I'm like, yes, please take this from me, Lord. And then there's other days where I'm like, I. I genuinely. I mean, most days, truly, I don't know how much of me is ADHD and how much of me is just me or if there is no difference between the two. And I think that last option is where I feel like I don't have a good answer for that question. And usually our answer is the answer that most people have. I don't know. But depending on how bad of a day they've had, sometimes it's just a flat. Yes. And that's hard.
- [40:13]
William Curb
Yeah. I mean, and I'm so. I'm like, today, I'm, like, searching through all these papers. I'm like, would not having ADHD mean I wouldn't have problems like this ever again? No, but.
- [40:24]
Ray Jacobson
But also, I had them less.
- [40:27]
William Curb
Yeah. Maybe.
- [40:27]
Ray Jacobson
Maybe I wouldn't feel that in that group of people who's like, I'll just call the doctor's office and make it, you know, like, maybe you would be one of the pot people who is just, like, living their life. You never know. But would you have all of the things that make you you?
- [40:41]
William Curb
Would I become a podcast bro?
- [40:46]
Ray Jacobson
Having spent only this short time with you, I can tell you unequivocally, no. And I mean, that is the highest compliment.
- [40:52]
William Curb
Yeah. Because that. I always love being like, oh, just another white man with a podcast.
- [40:58]
Ray Jacobson
It's okay. We don't judge.
- [41:00]
William Curb
I. I judge myself a lot. But in this case, that.
- [41:04]
Ray Jacobson
That's harder. That's a harder.
- [41:05]
William Curb
Yeah, that. That's a harder. Yeah. I mean, that's. That comes with the territory. But, yeah, I think that question of giving up adhd, if we just separate personality, does the good outweigh the bad? That's really hard to say. Like, yeah, it does.
- [41:22]
Ray Jacobson
I feel like, no, no.
- [41:23]
William Curb
Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, not at all. Yeah, it'd be. I'm like, sure, there's, like, creativity aspects of it, but.
- [41:30]
Ray Jacobson
But that's. That to me, comes down, like, again, this is a challenge I have with it, which is like, when people are like, well, People with adh, because, well, you know, like, I don't know about you, but I've written many, many, many articles about adhd. Right. Like, and when you do it or when you talk about it, there is always, like, this pressure to find the good. Right. Like, and the good always sounds like people with ADHD are more creative. People with ADHD think outside the box. People with ADHD see angles, others don't, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. I do think that a lot of that is true, but again, that kind of comes to the. Can you separate ADHD from those things? Because there are plenty of people I know who don't have ADHD who have those abilities as well. I don't know, and I genuinely don't know. This isn't. Like, I have a thought, and I'm not sure. I don't know sometimes if I feel like ADHD is this thing that is inextricable from who I am and thus something that I need to come to love and embrace and appreciate, or if it's kind of unreasonable to ask us simply because we have this constellation of symptoms that is hard for other people to understand and hard to pin down and something that is tricky for non ADHD people to get to ask us to love this thing, to celebrate this thing that has caused so much harm. And I don't know which one of those is right or if they vacillate between being true for me, but sometimes it feels like the symptom of a symptom of a symptom stuff is a way for us to kind of like dance around the center, which is this thing that is really serious and has real impact and changes everything about the way that you live your life, if you have it or you don't. And I don't really know where that lives in the conversation now.
- [43:15]
William Curb
Yeah, the metaphor I like to stick with here or that I have played with a bunch is this idea that. And it does separate the ADHD from me a bit, which is we're one and the same. But the idea of, like, climbing a mountain while I'm tied to someone else and that someone else is my adhd, and we have to find a path up the mountain together. Because if either of us try to go our own direction, it's not going to work. And it doesn't mean that I necessarily have to love that person I'm tied to. It just means that I have to work with them, because that's the reality. I don't get a choice.
- [43:50]
Ray Jacobson
Exactly. There's this thing where it's like there's a speculation and the reality. And I think when it comes down to kind of what you were saying before, which is this understanding of what ADHD is or means or how it exists within us, whether we can separate it from ourselves, that is to me almost like a philosophical line of questioning, you know, something to be debated in pubs and, you know, the inevitable late night conversation. Right, that's for that. And podcasts, apparently, of course, what can't be on a podcast. But the other thing, the mountain and getting up it, that is the day to day work. That is the living of your life. That is the thing where you're like, all right, I gotta get these papers somehow, so how am I gonna do it? Because I do think that after the panic and self loathing period of forgetting, I usually fall into a period of intense practicality. Does it always come out the way I'd like it to? No, but there is this thing where you're like, all right, well this is the reality, so what am I going to do? And then you have to go from there. And I feel like that thing is where you're like, all right, let's get up the mountain, we gotta do this. And like, you're here and I'm here and if we try to go two different directions, it's not going to work out. So what's the path?
- [45:03]
William Curb
Yeah, and that's not always easy to see. Some days it doesn't appear there's any path. All right, well, we're kind of coming up on time here, which is shocking to me because I was like, oh, wow, we're 45 minutes in already. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to leave the audience with?
- [45:19]
Ray Jacobson
You know, you asked me this at the beginning. Well, I, I should say you warned me that you would ask this. And then I got so caught up in talking to you that I didn't plan final thoughts. So these are not as well rehearsed as I might like. But I do think when I think about what a final thought after our conversation is, what I'm going to be walking away with is if ADHD is your reality, however that reality looks. Finding a way to acknowledge what's hard and acknowledge the things that you can and can't change and the things that might require a little more investigation is always going to have value. No matter what it looks like for you. Whether it's keeping that journal, whether it's, you know, reaching out to a friend and saying like, hey, do you do this too. Or calling a clinician and saying like, hey, I have something that is genuinely outside my control, I need help. Those things are all the little steps up the mountain because it's not gonna be straight line and it's not gonna be a clear path. And at this point I don't think anybody with ADHD would expect it to be because we've been walking it for a long, long time. But it doesn't mean that it can't be enjoyable along the way. Maybe not all the time, but sometimes. And getting to talk to other people who have it can make a lot of difference. Like sitting down and wasting. Not wasting, but like having 45 minutes evaporate because this has been fun talking to you. That to me is like the genius and the joy of being a person. With adhd.
- [46:50]
William Curb
Yeah, absolutely. It's the getting caught up in what you're doing because it is enjoyable. I mean, we got the Hyper Focus show title and it is something that people love about ADHD and can be a double edged sword, but it is something that is can like it's very close to that flow state that people, you know, dream about getting into. And for us it's like, oh yeah.
- [47:10]
Ray Jacobson
That'S every day there are worse ways to go. Thank you so much for having me on.
- [47:14]
William Curb
Thank you.
- [47:19]
Podcast Host William Curb
Thanks again to Ray for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Before you go though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. 1. When considering what is and isn't ADHD, it's important to remember the context of ADHD as a chronic condition. As in it's something that we deal with all the time, everyone is going to lose their keys every once in a while. But with adhd, the difference is in the pattern and the impact. Without the systems I have in place to make sure my keys go in the same place every time, I would be losing them every day.
- [47:49]
Ray Jacobson
2.
- [47:49]
Podcast Host William Curb
Not everything annoying is an ADHD trait. Sometimes it's just being a human in a busy, overstimulating world. While there are a lot of comorbidities with adhd, if we try to label everything as adhd, we lose the ability to tell what actually needs attention. Instead of asking, is this adhd? Try asking, is this making my life unmanageable? That's a line that separates normal chaos from hey, I might need help with this. 3. But when ADHD does show up alongside things like depression, anxiety or trauma, those conditions can feed into each other. You need to figure out who's driving the bus. Treating the wrong driver means you'll burn energy fixing the wrong problem. So before building systems or blaming adhd, step back and ask what's actually behind the behavior. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 258 and if you'd like even more hacking your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all Distractions, which comes out every other week.
- [48:52]
William Curb
In it, I give out my best.
- [48:53]
Podcast Host William Curb
Distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, or what I'm watching. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is certainly going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. And I also want to make sure you know about the Patreon, which you can find@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon it's a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of the Patreon receive the same stuff and you get access to the Hacking youg ADHD Discord. So if that's something you want to have access to either the Discord Discord or the Patreon, head over to hackingyouradhd.com Patreon and sign up. And also, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find@YouTube.com hackingyouradhd and finally, if you'd like another way to support the show, the best.
- [49:35]
William Curb
Way to do so is to tell.
- [49:36]
Podcast Host William Curb
Someone about the show, especially if a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of dad how do you get a squirrel to like you? Act like a nut.
- [49:58]
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