Unapologetically ADHD with Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright (rebroadcast)

Summary

Hacking Your ADHD

Episode: Unapologetically ADHD with Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright (Rebroadcast)
Host: William Curb
Guests: Nikki Kinzer & Pete Wright (Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast)
Original Air Date: November 17, 2025

Overview

This episode dives into embracing ADHD unapologetically, featuring Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright—hosts of the Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast and co-authors of Unapologetically ADHD: A Step-by-Step Framework for Everyday Planning on Your Terms. The conversation explores building ADHD-friendly systems, finding sustainable organization strategies, overcoming shame, and developing self-advocacy—all while working with ADHD rather than against it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin & Structure of Unapologetically ADHD

• The book was developed over about a year, drawing from Nikki and Pete’s podcast dynamic:
  • Nikki provides the “how-to” ADHD coaching and frameworks.
  • Pete injects personal stories and reflections, often speaking directly to the book’s gender-neutral protagonist, “Jordan.”
  • Quote:

    "The goal of this character is so that when I'm talking to the character, I'm talking to you, reader, so you have to be able to see yourself.” —Pete Wright (05:00)

• Focused on mirroring the helpful, personality-driven structure of their long-running podcast (600+ episodes).

ADHD Planning: Embrace, Don’t Fix

• Both guests emphasize working with, not against, ADHD:
  • Instead of chasing “the best” method, start with what works, accommodating ADHD’s realities.
  • ADHD planning isn’t about “fixing” yourself to fit neurotypical molds.
    • Quote:

      "The key is to embrace ADHD, partner with it, and not pretend like it doesn't exist." —Nikki Kinzer (07:28)

• Acknowledgement that ignoring ADHD often leads to shame and unrealistic expectations.
  • Pete discussed the emotional duality of shame—either for “having” ADHD or for failing to mask it well enough (08:03).

Individualization & Advocacy

• ADHD isn’t one-size-fits-all—what works for one, won’t for another.
• Advocacy, even in everyday contexts (family, work, tools), is crucial:
  • Nikki’s story about her daughter’s loud, fast talking:

    “My way wasn't necessarily the right way, and her way asking me to talk louder was in her right to do. We can advocate for ourselves..." —Nikki Kinzer (09:14)

• Importance of communicating personal needs—ADHD or not—without apologizing or defaulting to “shoulds.”

System Fragility & Resilience

Timestamps: 13:02–19:56

• Systems will “fail” at times; fragility is expected, not a sign of personal failure.
• Pete uses the metaphor of industrial supply chains:
  • Every workflow includes parts that will break—understanding where helps with fast recovery.
    • Quote:

      “Once we understand writ large what system fragility means...it actually makes it easier to look at my own simple systems...When they break, I have a better understanding of how to come back into the system and rebuild them.” —Pete Wright (13:38)

• Nikki stresses not to immediately discard or blame failed tools—pause and investigate before switching.

Why Task Managers Fail—and What to Do

Timestamps: 15:07–19:56

• Loss of trust in a tool/system often stems from lack of use, not intrinsic failure.
  • “'TickTick didn’t work for me.' Or 'Todoist didn’t work.' ...The reasons tools fail usually have nothing to do with the apps.” —Pete Wright (16:57)
• No perfect app or format—complexity and simplicity both can work, depending on the person.
• Highlight: Task notes need context and specific, actionable verbs—so you’re not lost weeks later (20:05).
• Sticky notes, paper, digital task managers—all are valid. The point is usability and connection to your own workflow.

Breaking Down Tasks: Tools & AI

Timestamps: 21:02–23:45

• Techniques for reducing overwhelm:
  • Break complex tasks into atomic steps.
  • Borrowing from Dr. Kourosh Dini: “Just visit the task,” even if only mentally or physically gathering materials.
  • Pete shares a tool in Todoist:

    “You can click on the three dots...and there’s an AI option that says, 'Break tasks down,' and it adds six or eight new tasks...[Maybe] the tasks it comes up with are nonsense, but it helps unlock what I need to do next.” —Pete Wright (21:59)

• Even if imperfect, generative suggestions can provide a crucial starting point when you’re stuck.

Rethinking "Should be Easy"

Timestamps: 23:45–25:26

• Instead of berating yourself (“This should be easy!”), shift to honest acknowledgment (“This is hard”)—removes judgment and helps find solutions.
  • Quote:

    “When I stop saying, 'This should be easy,' and just say, 'This is hard,' ... I introduce clarity that was not present before.” —Pete Wright (24:19)

The Power of Acceptance & Self-Kindness

• Acceptance helps move from unhelpful (e.g., “I’m just lazy”) to actionable (“I have executive dysfunction; maybe I need music to clean the dishes”).
  • “The solution for not being lazy is to just do the thing...but that's a bad solution” —William Curb (25:47)
• Externalize options, revisit and revise lists—writing things down is only a commitment to consider, not to act (26:42).

ADHD Tools Are Personal—There Is No "Best"

• Rethink the search for “the best” ADHD tools.
  • Quote:

    “Back to Nikki's point, there is no best ADHD tool, in spite of us being sold that constantly.” —Pete Wright (28:36)

• The important work is adapting and customizing for your workflow, whatever that means—digital, analog, simple, complex.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On System Fragility:
  “When they break, I have a better understanding of how to come back into the system and rebuild them quickly and easily. So I don’t feel like I’m starting over anymore.”
  —Pete Wright (13:38)

• On Self-Advocacy:
  "It's also kind of not assuming that just because somebody else has a different way of doing something that they're the right way...We can say, no, this is how we like to work."
  —Nikki Kinzer (09:14)

• On Unapologetic Acceptance:
  “What happens when we stop pretending in any context that we don’t have it [ADHD]? ...What do we do next?”
  —Pete Wright (08:03)

• On Finding the "Best" Tool:
  "I will tell you, almost every single time I do a presentation...there's always the question, 'What is the best one for ADHD?' And there isn't any. And that is such a hard thing to say back."
  —Nikki Kinzer (17:38)

• On Judgment and Self-Compassion:
  “When I stop saying, 'This should be easy,' and just say, 'This is hard,' ...I’m in a provocative, maybe slightly fearful state, but I'm not in a confused state, which makes it easier to find the way in.”
  —Pete Wright (24:19)

• Final Wisdom:
  "Life is not just a to do list. Let’s make sure that we have joy in our life...Because at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you have dirty dishes in the sink. Do your kids know you love them? Are you spending time with your family? That’s the stuff that matters."
  —Nikki Kinzer (29:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] – Introduction to Nikki and Pete; origins of the book
• [05:35] – FOMO vs. FOBO and ADHD’s search for the “perfect” option
• [07:28] – Embracing ADHD and ending cycles of shame
• [13:02] – System fragility, resilience and supply chain metaphor
• [16:44] – Why task managers and systems “fail”
• [21:02] – Task breakdown techniques and AI suggestions
• [23:45] – Emotional shift: "Should be easy" vs. “This is hard”
• [25:47] – Acceptance, reframing self-talk, actionable solutions
• [28:36] – There is no single “best tool” for ADHD
• [29:03] – Final advice; prioritizing joy and relationships

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a compassionate, wisdom-rich exploration of ADHD-friendly planning, with actionable strategies and memorable metaphors. Nikki and Pete urge listeners to accept their ADHD and build systems tailored specifically for their brains—emphasizing self-advocacy, frequent recalibration, and the importance of focusing on what truly matters in life.

For more:

• Listen to Nikki and Pete on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast
• Check out their book: Unapologetically ADHD: A Step-by-Step Framework for Everyday Planning on Your Terms

[Find detailed show notes and transcript at hackingyouradhd.com/195]

Transcript

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[William Curb]

Welcome to Hacking youg adhd. I'm your host William Curb and I have ADHD on this podcast. I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team, I'm excited to bring you my conversation with Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright, host of Taking Control, the ADHD Podcast. If you haven't checked out their podcast before, Nikki and Pete have been a mainstay in the ADHD podcast Realm with over 600 episodes across 29 seasons. If there's an ADHD topic you're interested in, they've probably covered it. And Nikki and Pete recently released their new book, Unapologetically A Step by Step Framework for Everyday Planning on your terms. In our conversation today, we explore how their personal experiences and professional expertise in managing ADHD shine through their work, providing both structure and understanding whether it's tackling procrastination, enhancing organizational skills, or simply learning to be a partner with your adhd. This episode is packed with practical advice and real life strategies. If you'd like to follow along on the Show Notes page, you can find [e-mail] 195 all right, keep on listening to find out how you can be unapologetically adhd. Pete Wright and Nikki Kinsey are here from Taking Control of the ADHD Podcast.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Thank you for having us.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah, we're really glad to be here.

[William Curb]

And we're also going to be talking about their new book Unapologetically adhd.

[Pete Wright]

We've spent almost a year working on this and it is a step by step framework for everyday planning on your Terms.

[William Curb]

Awesome. Yeah.

[Pete Wright]

So.

[William Curb]

And that was actually one of my first things. I was wondering how long you guys have been working on the book. So in about a year now, Almost.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Exactly a year from this moment in time. So it's been a year in progress. Cause we started writing, I would say, more like in October. Pete, you didn't really start writing until December, right?

[Pete Wright]

I participate in NaNoWriMo every year, National Novel Writing Month in November. And so it was part of the deal. I couldn't turn my attention to this until December 1st, but from there on, it was a marathon to get it done.

[William Curb]

Awesome.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Because, I mean, a year ago, I had no idea that we would even be having this conversation. So it's pretty surreal that we're here and talking about it. It's in our hands and pretty exciting.

[William Curb]

But I imagine it did help that you have the two of you working together on it and that having that, like, built in accountability there, because I know I was just like, oh, I'm gonna do this. I need to build in those systems. But you kind of have a natural system built in here.

[Nikki Kinzer]

We do. We work well together. And one of the things that we really wanted for the book is it to look like our podcast. And so it came pretty easy to kind of figure out, okay, what part am I gonna have? Which is more of the ADHD coach. This is the how to kind of method, the framework. And then Pete being able to put in what we call his essays with his own point of view from having adhd, his experiences with these concepts. And so it mirrors our podcast, which was really important to us because that's our personality. We wanted our personality in the book and his. To be honest, William, he's a lot better writer than I am. He's a lot more creative, and his stories are good. And so it puts some interest in the book.

[William Curb]

I definitely got felt both of your personalities in the book. I'd gotten the advanced copy, and I just put it in something that was. Would automatically read it for me. So it kind of had, like, a little bit of a robot voice. Oh, yeah. It worked out. I could still, like, hear both of your personalities in the book, even with not having your voice in the book.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Oh, that's so good to hear.

[William Curb]

I love it.

[Pete Wright]

Even the robot knows who we are. Yeah.

[William Curb]

And yeah, you definitely have, like, with Pete's section, talking to Jordan, our protagonist of the book, as it were.

[Pete Wright]

Yes.

[William Curb]

I was, like, listening. I'm like, did I remember the name right? Did he change the name? That would be really amusing if he just switched names throughout the entire book.

[Pete Wright]

Right.

[William Curb]

It's a different person each time.

[Pete Wright]

I'm just gonna tell you the first draft of the book. Our protagonist Jordan, was not Jordan. It was something else. And we wrote the whole book. And then our editor came back and said, you know, we need to have someone in here who is not gendered if we really want. Like, the goal of this character is so that when I'm talking to the character, I'm talking to you, reader, so you have to be able to see yourself. And so we went with Jordan as name that was not explicitly gendered, and that was really important. And it was such a good call. I was lazy in my initial draft, but that was my greatest fear, was that we missed one somewhere.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Oh, right.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah. We did a thorough find and replace, so I'm pretty sure we caught it. Enough eyes were on it that I'm pretty sure we got it. Yeah.

[William Curb]

And there's just some, like, great metaphors and ideas in the book that just really clicked with me. You were talking about FOMO in this one part, but you're like. And then there's this other thing, the fobo, the fear of better options. And I was just like, I have had buy socks on my to do list for two months because I've been looking for the best socks. This is exactly what's going on here, right?

[Pete Wright]

Yeah, for sure.

[William Curb]

Yeah.

[Pete Wright]

There are no best socks. It turns out.

[William Curb]

It's one of those things I've always found is, like, there aren't any right options, but there are certainly wrong options.

[Pete Wright]

Right.

[William Curb]

And it's like, okay, I just need to get over that first hurdle, and then I can pull the trigger and do what I need to for that research or shouldn't.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Because it's so easy to get sucked into, for sure.

[Pete Wright]

It really is. And it's the hardest thing. I mean, in terms of the ADHD note, for me, it's just the act is not finding the best options. We have to stop trying to find the best options. And our only focus is eliminating, as you say, the worst options. Because once we eliminate the worst options, we can't lose. Really. We can't lose because they're all good options as long as we eliminate the worst options. And wrestling that sort of act of critical thinking, that discernment is the ADHD task. That's the muscle memory you have to develop with a practice, because context is everything. You might figure out the sock problem, and the next day you have to buy shirts.

[William Curb]

Yeah. Also this week, I bought new headphones And I did that in 30 minutes. I was like, these are the ones I want. There we go. Done. I was just like, why are socks so much harder than headphones?

[Nikki Kinzer]

Right?

[Pete Wright]

Yeah, man. Weird. Opinions held strongly. That's true.

[William Curb]

There was so much in the book that I was just like, oh, this is perfect for talking to adhd. And both from your different perspectives, because there's definitely this aspect of people with ADHD being like, I only want to hear from other people with adhd. But we also need to have that structure to, like, build off of that really helps be like, okay, here's how these ideas work, and here is how we can actually apply those within our adhd.

[Nikki Kinzer]

And that's really the key, right, is to embrace the adhd, partner with it, and not pretend like it doesn't exist. And that's what I've seen so many times with clients and people that I've worked with is that they want to ignore it or not even intentionally. It's just there's all these shoulds in the world and these high expectations, and when you're not accounting for your adhd, when you're planning your day, it's going to be really unrealistic. And then that shame starts to just kick in day after day. And that's what we're hoping to start to really break and have a different mindset around planning.

[Pete Wright]

And it's a funny shame, right? Because sometimes the shame is the shame that I'm living with ADHD and I'm incapable of dealing with the task in front of me. And sometimes the shame is I can't mask hard enough to truly believe that I don't have ADHD Right now, in this context, I am pretending, and I can't fool myself. And sometimes we can. Sometimes, depending on your flavor of adhd, you can pretend you don't have ADHD for a little while, and then it makes you question the world, and suddenly you're faced with the things that are hugely challenging to you, and you realize that your mask is not good enough. It's not strong enough, it's not thick enough, whatever it is. So, so much of our kind of message is like, what happens when we stop pretending in any context that we don't have it? What happens if we. We don't have to love it or hate it or whatever? It doesn't have to be a superpower or a boat anchor. Now what do we do next?

[William Curb]

One of the notes I have here is just, I love this focus on that. Instead of trying to fix yourself into this mold of how you want to work with your adhd, just being like, okay, I have adhd. How am I going to work with it in this context? How am I going to not change what I'm doing, just accommodate what I'm doing?

[Nikki Kinzer]

And I think also not to assume that if there's another way is the right way and what you're doing is the wrong way. I have just a quick little side note story, something that happened with my daughter. So she has adhd and she. Part of her h. Her hyperactivity is that she talks fast and she talks loud. And there was a moment in the kitchen, I was probably cooking something, and she's talking to me. And I remember I looked at her and I said, can you just quiet it down just a little bit? And she looked at me and she's like, well, can you speak louder? And I'm like, point taken. Like, I get that. Thank you. You know, I get that, like, my way wasn't necessarily the right way, and her way asking me to talk louder was in her right to do. Right. So I think it's also kind of not assuming that just because somebody else has a different way of doing something that they're the right way. Like, we can advocate for ourselves. We can say, no, this is how we like to work. We need extra time for this. Or we really don't know how long something's going to take until we're in the project. So, you know, let me have some time to get into the project and then I'll let you know. You know, like, it's sort of changing the expectations of what others are expecting from you by letting them know without even labeling adhd. But this is just how I like to work. This is how I do things.

[William Curb]

Absolutely. Because, I mean, that's one of the biggest lessons I've always been keep coming back to is like, I can't work against my brain. That just isn't fundamentally something that's going to be effective.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Right. And nor should you have to.

[William Curb]

And yet it is something that is such a hard lesson to, like, internalize as well, because we have all these, like, if I go, I go on to, like, productivity blogs. I'm like, oh, that person saying, this is how this works. I should be able to do that. And maybe even I've been able to do that once or twice, but I don't know why I can't do it now.

[Pete Wright]

Oh, totally. This is the peril of intermittent reinforcement. It's the worst with adhd, because Monday, you're amazing. Monday, you can do anything. Monday, you can put your mind to planning and you have. You're hyper focusing on just the right stuff and you know when to turn it off. And context switching is great. And Tuesday is a disaster. You don't know how to get out of bed right, Let alone see what's next. And that intermittent reinforcement causes you to believe you're capable of incredible things and be just devastated when reality creeps in and you don't have a system that's resilient to the kinds of feelings that have adhd. And to your point, traditional productivity systems are created by people who don't necessarily live with ADHD in one shape or form or another and don't acknowledge it. So we spend our lives as productivity nerds searching for systems and mining through systems that were not created for us and are making us pretend again that we don't have adhd. So for me, that looks like buying years worth of Franklin planning systems before Covey even bought them, and having them on my binder and having them meticulously labeled, but still forgetting appointments. Right? Like, still being on the edge of. Constantly on the edge of whatever was coming next. Because my focus was on setting up the systems, because I love systems, not using the systems. There was no gateway through my ADHD to do that.

[William Curb]

I know exactly what you mean too, about, like, setting up the system is the best part.

[Pete Wright]

It's the dopest. Yes.

[William Curb]

I remember one job where I spent days and days building this really complicated spreadsheet system to, like, track these things we were doing. And I was like, the person, like, sent it there. Like, this is like the best thing I've ever seen and I never used it.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yeah.

[Pete Wright]

Yep.

[William Curb]

I got to the end of the season and I was like, huh, that would have been really useful to actually use.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Shoot. Think of what we could have done next time.

[William Curb]

And I think this is also, like, a great point to pivot into. One of the big themes of the book is how do you set up your own systems that work with your adhd? I think one of the chapters I really loved listening to was one on the system fragility and like, how to be like, hey, your systems are going to have days when they fail, but figure out ways to not have that be the end of the system.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah, well, I mean, my entire consideration on system fragility is I have to look at something that's not related to how I work every day in order to really understand where systems break down. And so I wrote this whole essay on industrial supply chains because why not.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Right, like that makes sense.

[Pete Wright]

Why not? I want to try to. It's about a laptop and it comes from China. And what are all the systems that have to work seamlessly together in order to make it to my doorstep? You know, once we understand writ large what system fragility means and how professionals, risk analysts, look at system fragility, it actually makes it a little bit easier for me to look at my own simple systems on my computer and off and look at how, you know, my schedule, my contact list, my calendar, my to do list. All of my systems that fall together in this work box actually do work together. And when they break, I have a better understanding of how to come back into the system and rebuild them quickly and easily. So I don't feel like I'm starting over anymore. That's what we mean by resilience in our systems. And that's the going through the interrogation process of the systems, of the tools that I'm using and how I use them is one kind of fun, right? It's easy for someone with my flavor of adhd. Like we were talking about, like, setting up systems is great, but once I documented, I have a checklist on my wall here that I'm. I can see the tools that I use and I can look at. Okay, my schedule's a mess today. I know what part of my system I need to interrogate to get things back on track and make sure I'm delivering to the people at the time that I've agreed. For me, that metaphor of large scale industrial supply chain helps me understand my role in the world a little bit better. So I hope that essay resonates.

[Nikki Kinzer]

I think the message that both of us were really trying to let readers understand is that just because you've inconsistent or haven't seen something for a while, it doesn't mean automatically that it's broken. So to pause for a moment before going and grabbing that next planner or that new system that you just heard about on a podcast that somebody's using, right? Because sometimes that will take more work and more time than it would for you to actually go in and update what you currently have. But you have to get past that fear of what you're going to find out. You have to like, work through the shame of I haven't looked at it for a while. Not blame yourself for it breaking, you know, and really kind of get past some of those emotional pieces. But yet at the same time, if you go back into it and you're like, no, I really just don't like this anymore, then it's okay, go get a new one. Like, that's great. One of the things that we talk about in the book is we, we have like four or five different reasons why task managers fail. And so I think that's also very eye opening is to be able to see that, oh, if I'm in between two task managers and I'm in between for too long, it's probably going to break because there's confusion and nothing is really being like, used all in. Right. And so that's something to be aware of. And so there's just things there that we want people to think about and not just assume first that something's broken. There might be another, you know, another underlying reason that they can actually challenge and get back going.

[William Curb]

The one I see the most for myself is like losing trust in my system because I haven't been using it. And then that reinforcing not using it and being like, oh, I need to do something else.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yes.

[William Curb]

Because, like, oh, I haven't. I can't look at my to do list if it doesn't have the actual to dos I need to do.

[Pete Wright]

What do we say? We're like, oh, well, tick, tick didn't work for me. Or todoist didn't work for me. They failed. Well, the reasons that systems fail or apps fail for us invariably have nothing to do with the apps. Right?

[William Curb]

Yeah.

[Pete Wright]

The apps are doing what they promise to do. It's the human part, the human interaction where there's a mismatch. And that's not to say every tool should work for you. There's no should in that sentence. Like there are tastes and personalities, but the app itself, the tool, the system, the checklist, it's doing what it promised to do generally. It's usually it's our sort of commitment to making it a practice and understanding what to do when that practice breaks. Because it will, right?

[Nikki Kinzer]

It will. And that's part of the expectation is that it's, it's not going to be a consistent, perfect system. That's not what we're looking for. We're looking for something that's complete and that is resilient when these things happen. But going back to fear of better options, that's the other thing, is that I will tell you, almost every single time I do a presentation, I on either time, blocking or something to do with planning, there's always the question being asked, what is the best one for adhd? And there isn't any. And that is such a hard thing to say back. It's like, there is not a perfect system. There is not a better option. Because I have seen things work that are very complex systems that are in, you know, these systems, like notion and OneNote, OneNote, like, are just really complex to having a client literally have a note card that had the three things that they were working on today in their back pocket. And it worked. So it really depends on what works for you. And I think practicing and giving it enough time and chance to see if it works, but really adjusting it and customizing it for you. And only you can really answer that question by investing some time and some focus on what it is that you really need. What is the purpose of this tool? How is it going to help me? How does it work with my adhd? And I think most important is how do they work and connect with the other tools? Because if we're only looking at the calendar and the task manager as two individual tools, you don't have a complete system. We have to really look at all of these things working together. What's your workflow? So I'll tell people, hey, if you need a sticky note, like, I did it today. I was in a meeting and I wrote a little task. It says, add team member to FreshBooks. This is what came out of my meeting today. It didn't go straight into my task manager. It's on a sticky note. This is one of my planning tools, is a sticky note. This is an inbox for me, right? So now when I have a moment, I will put this into my task manager and I'll take care of it when it's time to take care of it. But then once it's in the task manager, I can throw away the sticky note. Understanding that flow of how you work is so important.

[William Curb]

Like, yeah, it's funny with those, like, sticky notes, like, yeah, if you don't get rid of it, then, like, three months later you're like, did I do this?

[Nikki Kinzer]

Exactly.

[William Curb]

Is this still relevant?

[Nikki Kinzer]

Right.

[William Curb]

I remember there was also a very specific thing in there, like, being, like, more specific with what you say on your, like, notes and things and tasks that you put in your thing. Because you do need to have context and the action to do something within your task. Because it's very hard to, you know, a couple weeks later look at something. You're like, what did I mean by this task? And how am I going to get started on it?

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yes, Pete, you can tell me what you think, but I think that's like a work in progress. Like, I always am seeing something that what Did I mean by that? And having to rephrase it and think about, like, what is the verb? What is the verb that is asking me, what do I need to do here? Or do I need to break this down? Because it's really three things, not just one, but. Yeah, it's always a constant review and constant adjustment to change. Because, you know, when you're getting it out of your head, it may not make sense, but then when you go back and look at it, like, what do I need to do to make it make sense?

[Pete Wright]

Yeah. And the last piece, and this is just something that I've been playing with very recently, I guess in the last year or so, but most conveniently very recently, is we talk often about breaking complex tasks down, right? If the task that we're writing is really complicated, then break it down into its smallest atomic points. And one of those we got from our friend Kodosh Dini, Dr. Dini, he says, you know, you just visit the task. That's his thing. Like, just visit it. It might just mean bring the resources out that you need for it and touch them and look at them and maybe read them and then put them away again, because it keeps it in your head. For me, I've just been playing with, you know, our. Our sort of shared task management tool of choices todoist. And there's a function in there over the last year or so where you can click on the three dots next to a task and there's an AI option that says break tasks down and it adds six or eight new tasks that it thinks would fit into the task that I can't quite wrap my head around.

[Nikki Kinzer]

I had no idea it did that.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah. Wow.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Mind blowing.

[Pete Wright]

I know when I'm in complete vapor lock on a task because I just don't know the way in. Sometimes the tasks that it comes up with are nonsense and I'm not going to do them the way it suggests, but it helps me unlock what I do need to do next because I read something immediately and say, oh, I'm not going to do that. But. And the but is the lesson. If I can get to a but. Essentially what we're doing is the same thing we did with the socks, right? We got rid of the worst options so that we could see that we have a number of different ways into this particular task. And that's the ADHD way of sort of creatively finding your way around the direct path. Because we don't take the direct path. We got to find our way in through the side door and this tool in using AI to break down tasks has been mind blowing. We didn't write about that in the book because it didn't really exist when we were writing about the book.

[Nikki Kinzer]

I'm just now knowing you could do this on todoist so that.

[Pete Wright]

It's incredible.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yeah, it's great.

[Pete Wright]

It's incredible.

[William Curb]

I've done something similar with my kids and being, like, using the same idea of, like, how do you clean your room so that I can break that deck?

[Nikki Kinzer]

Like, good idea.

[William Curb]

And then printing that out and then giving that to them, and they're like, oh, the first few times were great. And then they're like, I still don't want to clean my room, but, yeah.

[Nikki Kinzer]

But at least they know how to do it now and they have the steps, so that's good.

[William Curb]

Yeah. I mean, I love being able to kind of, like, offload that executive function of figuring out how to break down that task because it's one of those things that feels like it should be easy, but it's not. It's where we're, like, mistaking, like, the idea of simple for easy. And when we can really look at, like, okay, this takes more effort than I'm giving it credit for. And then be like, okay, give it the thing. But then being able to just like, oh, I don't even have to do this anymore. I could just ask and then I can get maybe not the best answers, but at least guidance on where. Because I always find that structure of not starting off at nothing so helpful.

[Pete Wright]

So helpful. You just said something that I just want to anchor on a little bit because it's an implicit message in what we're trying to do. I think with the podcast and the book that, you know, when I run into something that I feel deeply should be easy. It's not like a cognitive response. That's an emotional response, and it's a judgmental response because I'm judging myself against what other people. The degree of ease other people might have or not have with a particular task. But what happens to my ADHD brain when I stop saying, this should be easy and just say, hmm, this is hard, and then stop talking in my head.

[William Curb]

Right.

[Pete Wright]

What happens when my practice is, this is hard. What I do naturally is introduce clarity that was not present before. When I say this should be easy, I'm in a fog because my brain is focusing on all the ways other people do a thing. It's a complete mess. I can't rationalize. Should be easy when I'm approaching a task, but I can Rationalize, this is hard because then I'm in a provocative sort of curious, maybe slightly fearful state, maybe an anxious state, but I'm not in a confused state, which makes it easier to find the way in. If I just stop talking about what it should be to everybody else or what I think it should be to me because of everybody else's experience, I find an easier route into a hard thing.

[William Curb]

And this idea I always have where I'm like, I'll step back and be like, why is this so hard for me? And then I go, oh, it's my adhd. And if I go from that, I'm like, oh, this is a solvable problem. Then, yes, if this is hard for me because of my adhd, I know ADHD solutions and I can work from.

[Pete Wright]

Because this is reality right now. Let's just. That's an act of accepting reality right now. So let's move forward using our ADHD tools.

[Nikki Kinzer]

And that really, I mean, that is a great example, William, of, you know, being unapologetically adhd. Like, I get it, this is what's happening. But I can separate that. And I know, like you said, I have solutions here. I can do something about this. And yeah, that's great.

[William Curb]

The ADHD acceptance piece is so important, I find, because before, I'm like, because we always have some sort of label for ourself and a lot of labels are really not useful for solutions are like, why can't I do this? Well, it's because I'm lazy. The solution for not being lazy is to just do the thing. But that's a bad solution. Like being like, just do that. I'm like, well, that's still hard and I'm not going to do it. It's like, oh, but I'm having executive dysfunction and can't get myself to want to clean the dishes. Like, well, maybe I need some music or I need to do something there. And that becomes the solution rather than just this amorphous I'm lazy or something that doesn't have good solutions.

[Pete Wright]

Right, right.

[William Curb]

I had a couple more notes here that I saw that I really loved the one I had to stop the book and make sure I made the note for was writing it down is not a commitment to do it or a task list. And I was like, this is something I know and something I've said before, but you guys said it like three times in the book in a row. And I'm like, there's a reason for that.

[Pete Wright]

How important is that? Right. The only commitment you're Making to write it down is just to think about it later. You might not do it at all, but like you said, you just don't want to forget the opportunity to think about it for later.

[William Curb]

My current tool for organizing is I just have the little notebook that I keep that has a bunch of sections, and I have like my to do list in the beginning. And there's something like, in the beginning, I just have breakfast veggies, which is something I want to think about more.

[Pete Wright]

But yeah, yeah, just visit it. Visit breakfast veggies.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Kind of see it in your head, you know, like, mind, like, okay.

[William Curb]

But yeah, it's just something like, oh, yeah, just use your tools and let it be okay to not let the tools, like, control you. You're in charge of the tool.

[Nikki Kinzer]

They're not judging you.

[Pete Wright]

We do talk often about, you know, especially in context of dealing with people who are charged with helping us with accommodations in college, at work, whatever. Right. Hr. And we always use the sort of language around, like, you're your best advocate, right? You're the one who gets to own your advocacy for your adhd. The same thing is true with your tools, right? You kind of have to advocate and assert yourself into the tools that you use. You have to make it your own thing. And that's a responsibility and an opportunity. And for some people, it's a huge turnoff. You just want it to do all the work. But I think with adhd, we have to take ownership of the fact that the system is going to have to be supremely customized to how our brains work. And you might need a notebook and a pen that you enjoy writing with because of its tactile experience. And paper that doesn't bleed just right. And the words you write might just be breakfast veggies, but that attaches to your brain in a way that it would never attach to mine. And that's okay because you're the advocate in that situation and I'm the advocate in todoist, and we have to own that, like, one thing isn't going to work for everybody. Back to Nikki's point, there is no best ADHD tool, in spite of us being sold that constantly.

[William Curb]

One of the original concepts for this podcast, when I was like, brainstorming ideas, I'm like, oh, I'm just going to talk about tools that work really well for adhd. And I was just like, it doesn't matter, though. Like, but I was like, I'd start writing about something and I'm like, well, the real thing that you need to pay attention to is how you use the tool. And then I'm like, I keep doing that. I can't make that the theme of the show. And I was like, well, then maybe I should do the thing that I keep writing about.

[Pete Wright]

Yeah.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yeah, right.

[Pete Wright]

All right.

[William Curb]

I was wondering if there were any ideas or anything that you wanted to leave the audience with.

[Nikki Kinzer]

You know, I think more than anything, we hope that this is a great resource for your listeners. It's that framework that we've been talking about. But more than anything, I hope it's something that you keep on your shelf and go back to later, too, when you do notice that things are working as well as you. You want them to, or you're noticing those roadblocks that we talk about or some of those things that kind of break the systems, that it's a resource for you. You know, it's not just a book you read once. And it's a book that we hope you continue working out of to build that system and then be able to use it in the future when you need it. And we want you to be unapologetically you, you know, really embracing who you are as a person. And one of my final comments is that life is not just a to do list. Let's make sure that we have joy in our life. Let's intentionally plan time with our friends and our family and the things that mean the most to us, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you have dirty dishes in the sink. Do your kids know you love them? You know, are you spending time with your family? Like, that's the stuff that matters and that's the message we hope to leave your listeners with.

[Pete Wright]

Couldn't have said it better.

[William Curb]

Super important thing to do because, yeah, it's so easy to leave that stuff off your calendar when that's precisely the stuff that needs to go on there first.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Yes.

[William Curb]

Otherwise, we will fill it with stuff that we don't necessarily need to do.

[Nikki Kinzer]

So true.

[William Curb]

All right, well, the book is now out. Right. And so people can imagine get that Amazon anywhere that books are sold.

[Pete Wright]

Absolutely.

[William Curb]

And if you guys want to hear more of Pete and Nikki, go check out their podcast, Taking Control, the ADHD podcast. Been listening to you guys for a while, so it's been a pleasure to have you on the show.

[Pete Wright]

Our pleasure as well.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Thank you so much for having us.

[William Curb]

Thanks again to Nikki and Pete for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. If you want to check out more of their stuff, just search for Taking Control, the ADHD podcast, or if you're interested in their book, go check out Unapologetically ADHD A Step by step framework for everyday planning on your own terms. And as always, links will be in the Show Notes. But before you go, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. 1. Embrace your ADHD and plan your day around it to avoid unrealistic expectations and the possible ensuing shame. 2. When looking for a system, we need to recognize that no one size fits all tool exists. Try to avoid the trap of looking for the best options. Focus instead on eliminating the worst options to simplify your decision making.

[Pete Wright]

3.

[William Curb]

When we recognize the importance of revisiting and adjusting our systems regularly rather than constantly switching to new tools, it'll help us acknowledge that every tool or system will have days that it fails. With that in mind, we can focus on embracing resilience so that we can get back on tracks when things do go awry. All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me [e-mail] contact if you'd like links or to read this episode transcript, you can go to the show notes [e-mail] 195 and now for your moment of dad in my opinion, Prometheus had the ultimate hot take.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Dude.

[Pete Wright]

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[William Curb]

Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro.

[Pete Wright]

Nah brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken and a buttery biscuit. That's the perfect breakfast.

[William Curb]

Alright, let me try it. Mmm.

[Nikki Kinzer]

Okay.

[William Curb]

Yeah, totally. Winner, Winner Chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here.

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[Pete Wright]

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[Pete Wright]

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