Ep. 536: Make a Before-&-After Book, Enter the Library, and How to Deal with a Questioner Spouse

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin — Ep. 536

Title: Make a Before-&-After Book, Enter the Library, and How to Deal with a Questioner Spouse
Hosts: Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft
Release Date: May 28, 2025

In Episode 536 of "Happier with Gretchen Rubin," Gretchen Rubin and her cohost, Elizabeth Craft, delve into practical strategies for enhancing personal satisfaction and navigating challenging interpersonal dynamics. This episode is rich with insightful discussions, listener interactions, and actionable advice aimed at fostering happiness and effective habit formation.

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1. Creating a Before-&-After Photo Book

The episode kicks off with a "Try This at Home" suggestion centered around the creation of a before-and-after photo book. Elizabeth Craft shares her enthusiasm for documenting transformations, whether they pertain to home renovations, personal projects, or any significant changes in one’s environment.

Elizabeth illustrates the concept by recounting her experience visiting friends whose home underwent substantial updates. She marvels, "[...] she pulled out a photo album that was just on the COVID era, just their address, and then all the pictures of what it had looked like before." (05:22) This storytelling underscores the satisfaction derived from visually tracking progress and transformation.

Gretchen adds, "It's definitely good to keep in mind to take those photos. Yes, you can always get rid of the photos, but you can't take them after the fact." (10:25) emphasizing the importance of capturing these moments in real-time to preserve memories and provide a tangible record of achievements.

Key Takeaways:

• Visual Documentation: Creating a photo book helps in appreciating the effort and changes made over time.
• Accountability and Motivation: Seeing "before" and "after" images can serve as a motivator to complete ongoing projects.
• Keepsake Value: A physical book offers a more sentimental and organized keepsake compared to digital photos scattered across devices.

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2. Happiness Hack: Enter the Library

In the "Happiness Hack" segment, Elizabeth Craft introduces the idea of "Entering the Library" as a means to discover and utilize underexplored local resources. She shares observations from her book tour where many individuals expressed unfamiliarity with their local library branches, despite living nearby.

Elizabeth discusses the Read 25 and 25 Day challenge, a nationwide event encouraging people to engage in a silent reading experience for 25 minutes on June 25th. She highlights the benefits of visiting libraries and museums, suggesting that overcoming the initial inertia to explore these places can unlock a wealth of resources and opportunities for personal growth.

Gretchen echoes this sentiment, noting, "If you're out and about and you're passing by a place that you are interested in, you pull over and just pop in. You don't necessarily have to make a special trip." (15:53)

Key Takeaways:

• Overcoming Inertia: Taking the first step to visit a local library or museum can lead to discovering valuable community resources.
• Engagement Opportunities: Libraries offer more than books; they provide access to board games, workshops, and various community events.
• Personal Enrichment: Regular visits can lead to ongoing engagement and support personal happiness through continual learning and exploration.

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3. Navigating a Questioner Spouse

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to addressing a listener’s challenge with a "questioner spouse." The original inquiry from Episode 518 concerned a spouse who incessantly asks questions, causing emotional exhaustion for the listener. Gretchen and Elizabeth explore various listener-submitted strategies to manage this dynamic constructively.

Listener Suggestions & Host Insights:

• Shared Calendars and Information Access: Kayla suggests, "We set up a shared family Google calendar [...] which has drastically reduced instances where he's asking me for things that only I know." (19:36) This approach emphasizes transparency and shared responsibility in managing family logistics.

• Reframing the Reasoning: Gretchen shares her realization as an obliger, "I interpreted every question as a task... you're also asking me to stop what I'm doing." (19:36) Understanding the underlying stressors can help in addressing the root cause of the frustration.

• Designated Question Time: Another listener, Danette, introduces the concept of "couch time," a dedicated period each day where uninterrupted conversation can occur. Elizabeth explains, "We reinstated couch time for us. It is every weekday when we get home from work... It has done wonders for our relationship." (27:08) This structured time allows both partners to connect without intruding on other obligations.

• Direct Communication Tactics: Elle advises establishing clear communication by asking, "Where have you looked already?" or "Has anyone talked to my mom about Thanksgiving?" (25:16) These techniques help in reducing the cognitive load and redirecting responsibilities appropriately.

• Empathy from the Questioner's Perspective: Han, identifying as a questioner himself, reflects, "I am probably just trying to optimize my time... Do it unless you tell me not to." (23:28) Recognizing the intention behind the questions can foster mutual understanding.

Key Takeaways:

• Open Communication: Clearly expressing how the barrage of questions affects one’s mental state can lead to more considerate interactions.
• Structured Interaction: Implementing designated times for discussion can balance the need for connection with personal focus time.
• Shared Responsibility: Utilizing tools like shared calendars can minimize redundant queries and distribute information access evenly.
• Understanding Motivations: Recognizing that questioners may seek connection or efficiency can transform the dynamic into a more supportive partnership.

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4. Engaging with the Community and Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, Gretchen and Elizabeth encourage listeners to engage by sharing their experiences and solutions on various platforms such as Instagram, Facebook, Threads, and TikTok. They emphasize the value of community support and shared experiences in overcoming personal and relational challenges.

Elizabeth shares her upcoming participation in Read 25 and 25 Day and highlights the collaborative nature of the event, partnering with bookshop.org to foster a nationwide reading community. Gretchen complements this by discussing her own initiatives, reinforcing the theme of active participation in community and personal projects.

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Conclusion

Episode 536 of "Happier with Gretchen Rubin" offers a blend of personal anecdotes, listener interactions, and expert advice aimed at fostering happiness and effective habit formation. From the practicality of creating a before-and-after photo book to the nuanced strategies for managing a questioner spouse, Gretchen and Elizabeth provide listeners with actionable insights to enhance their personal and relational well-being. Additionally, the episode underscores the importance of community engagement and leveraging local resources to cultivate a richer, more fulfilling life.

Notable Quotes:

• Elizabeth Craft: "Making a before and after photo album helps record how far you came and keeps you accountable." (05:22)
• Gretchen Rubin: "You can't take those photos after the fact." (10:25)
• Elizabeth Craft: "It has done wonders for our relationship and made a huge difference for both of us." (27:29)
• Gretchen Rubin: "You're just the pattern that arises. This isn't just you being inconsiderate." (24:03)

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Resources Mentioned:

• Read 25 and 25 Day Challenge: Participate on June 25th by dedicating 25 minutes to reading.
• happiercast.com/536: Access show notes and additional resources related to the episode.

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Stay Connected: To share your experiences or seek further advice, listeners are encouraged to reach out via social media platforms or email @podcastgretchrubin.com. Engage with the Happier community to continue your journey toward a more fulfilling and happier life.

Transcript

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

And there's so many great flavors. Gia ginger, lemon, salt, sumac and chili or Ghia soda. Look for Ghia products at a Target or Whole Foods near you and enjoy a special discount when you shop on drinkgua.com use code happier at checkout and get 20% off your order. That'S-R-I-N k g h I a.com and use use code happier for 20% off.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Lemonade.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about how to make our lives happier. This week we'll talk about the satisfaction of making a before and after photo book after a big project and and we'll share listener suggestions about what to do about a questioner husband who asks a lot of questions. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, secrets of adulthood, human nature. I'm in my little home office and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Gretchen Rubin]

My sister the sage, that's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in la. And Gretch, I always have to laugh when you say that. I don't feel like a Sage much of the time, but I'll take it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I need to get you a T shirt or at least a mug that says Sage on it. But before we launch in a few.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Updates, Aaron said, Loved hearing you promote the use of weekly pill holders for organization and travel. I take few daily meds, but the long plastic pill holders with the days of the week made me feel old. I'm only 52. I purchased two wooden round pill holders with a magnetic closure that are much more stylish and just look decorative on the nightstand. And now I don't get that negative old feeling when I pick it up to take my meds.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I love that because I know what she means. Like there is something very hospital feeling about them. They're super, super practical. But yes, I think there is a lot of room for aesthetic improvement in that area. So it's good to know it's happening.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Gretch, can I give you a side hack that I just discovered this week, which is pill holders can also be used as jewelry holders when you travel.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Ah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I needed to put my rings somewhere when I was traveling and I realized, oh, I can put them in one of my empty d days of the week.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And then I realized I could have like a fresh, clean pill holder for a necklace in one. Rings in one earrings.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And they wouldn't get all tangled together. So that's my bonus hack of the week.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, that's great. And then you could use it for that as well. So I love that. Fantastic. I also wanted to tell everybody about Read 25 Day. Okay, 25. Everything in the year 2025 has got a kind of a 25 day theme for Read 25 and 25, which of course is the annual challenge this year. And I'm thrilled to announce that we are partnering with bookshop.org for Read 25 Day. So this is part of the Read 25 and 25 challenge. But you don't have to be doing that challenge to participate in this. It's a nationwide gathering. It is taking place on Wednesday, June 25th for a special 25 minute silent reading experience. Which the hope is that it will remind people of how much they love to read, spark follow up conversation about what books people are reading and about the joy of reading. This is going to be super fun. If you want to participate, you can find a local bookstore event. So many bookstores are signing up to do this, but it is super, super fun. All across the country, bookstores are hosting events. There's the Busy Bees Bookstore in Summit, Mississippi. Zibby's Bookstore in Santa Monica, California. I've been to that bookstore and we are going to be announcing more participating bookstores in the weeks to come. So you can hear your favor at Indie is going to participate. Encourage them to participate. If this is something that you'd like to do. You can also though host your own reading. Get together. Like this doesn't have to be through a bookstore. You could just do it with people you know who love to read or you can just do it on your own. Just do this solo. If you don't want to do it in a group or there's no group around you. All reading counts for this with other people on your own or if you listen to it or read it on an Ebook whatever you do that counts for your 25 minutes. And you can pledge to read 25 on June 25th. Get it? June 25th. If you go to happiercast.com read2five day and there you can learn all about it and be part of it. It's going to be the biggest reading event of the year. I'm super excited.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So fun.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, well, this week, our try this at home suggestion is to make a before and after photo book of a renovation or other improvement project.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So explain what this is, Gretch.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay. So I realized I love the format of before and after. Anything that's a before and after I am attracted to. In fact, I almost called my book better than before, before and After. And I still really want to do something big that is before and after because I just feel like I love a before and after. And during my book tour, I have two friends from law school who married each other and live in Tulsa. And so when I was in Tulsa, I went and stayed the night with them instead of staying in a hotel. And I had never been to their house before. And my friend was like, oh, you know, we changed it so much. It hadn't been updated in like 50 years. What? And I said, oh, my gosh, I wonder what it looked like before. And she said, well, let me show you. And she pulled out a photo album that was just on the COVID was just their address. And then it was all the pictures of what it had looked like before. And then as we went through the house, like, this is my idea of a super fun time we went through, and we would look at the pictures of what it was and then look around, and she would explain to me what they did and why. And it was just so satisfying. And we have our lake house that we bought that we're so excited. And we're not doing tons of renovation, but we're definitely, like, painting things and putting. Putting in new furniture and that sort of thing. And I was very aware that when we moved into this apartment, I didn't take any pictures of what it was originally. And I bitterly regret that because I'm always so curious because we did change some pretty major things about this apartment. So, like, what was that like? I wish that I had lots of pictures of it. So I did take lots of pictures of the house, but now I'm actually determined to put it into a real book because it made me realize, like, we all have these pictures on our phones, but. But it's different if you have it in a book. I mean, one thing Is like we could walk around her house and I could just look at it very easily. And she wasn't just like peering into her phone into some like, album she'd been on her phone. It just was much more of a keepsake. It felt very elevated and cool.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, Gretchen, I so wish I had done this. When we moved into our house, it looked completely different. It had like this pink marble sort of substance everywhere. I mean, everywhere.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And your kitchen is completely different. The backyard is completely. Yeah, you've done a lot of changes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, I don't think we have any before photos, so yeah, I really wish we had done this. One thing I was thinking about, Gretchen, that would be a good idea is to take photos of your kids rooms through the years. Maybe it's a spare bedroom at first or a gym. Then it becomes a nursery, then it becomes a little kid's room, then a teenager's room. Yes, that would be a really fun thing to have.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It reminds me like a lot of times people will take the picture by the front door on the first day of school or something.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It could be fun on a birthday or something. Just to use something to remind you. Yes. That this is like an ongoing evolving thing. That again, I mean, this is like my album of now. It feels so ordinary and it feels so unchanging now. You don't think about the fact that later these details of life will be intensely interesting to you. And it is funny, like when you walk into a house, you're so focused on the way it looks, you think you would really want to take a lot of pictures of it. But I guess you're so focused on what your future vision is. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's interesting. I love that idea for like a child's room, just like as part of the memory keeping of their going. But then I was thinking like someone like Sarah. Your writing partner, Sarah Fane on Happier in Hollywood podcast. She's talked about how she decided she needed to have an office outside of home, just for all the obvious reasons. But Sarah's a person who really will transform a space. She will make a space her own. And I was so interested on your sub stack she had a few pictures that were kind of before and after, but only incidentally. And I remember thinking, no, no, no, no. I want 15 pictures of that room before. And then I want to see how she ends up. There's just something very appealing about it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It is very appealing. And I could see her doing that because she does have that eye and would enjoy having.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And then I could imagine how you might do it. Let's say there was some big project that had just been weighing on your mind for years. If you were like, here's the garage now, or here's the basement now and then having the after, like, it might. For one thing, it would be a ta da because you would really have a record of how far you came. And it also might keep you persisting with it because it is a kind of accountability for people who need accountability. It's like, well, I took all the before pictures and maybe tell people, oh, get ready, I'm gonna send you my before and after pictures. And people are like, well, where's the after now? You have to do the work to get to after.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, I should have done that with my office when you were here. Gretchen, we took a couple of pictures. You did take a couple of pictures.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I always do. I always. But you don't. You don't have that impulse. But I do.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And yeah, even if it doesn't necessarily amount to a whole book, it's definitely good to keep in mind to take those photos. Yes, you can always get rid of the photos, but you can't take them after the fact.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Planting a garden again, anything where there's going to be some kind of physical transformation, you want to think about the fact that once the transformation is done, it's very satisfying to think about what did it look like before. So I just find this extremely energizing. And now because of digital photos, it's so easy to make our photographs into a book. So let us know if you do try this at home and how making a before and after photo album works for you. What projects did you track and did it help you stick to finishing your project? Let us know on Instagram, Facebook threads, TikTok. Drop us an [e-mail] or as always, you can go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com 536 for everything related to this episode.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Coming up, we have an Exploring Happiness hack. But first, this break.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Elizabeth, you know me, I know nothing about wine and I am hosting my book club coming up in a few weeks and usually this would make me very stressed out. I would just like go into the wine store and wander around and know nothing. But I am so happy because now I have naked wines to give me terrific wines delivered directly to my door. Naked Wines connects winemakers and wine drinkers directly and allows for vineyard to door delivery at up to 60% off. What we would pay in the store.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Now is the time to join the naked wines community, head to nakedwines.com happier click enter voucher and put in our code Happier for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just 39.99 with shipping included. That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com happier@ and use the code and password happier for six bottles of wine for $39.99 summer is on its way, and there's no better place to go for outdoor furniture than Wayfair. You know, Adam and I love entertaining outside, Gretch. That's one thing great about our house, but I did notice that we didn't have enough place for people to put their drinks. So I went to Wayfair Online and I got two little tables for our outdoor space and it totally refreshed the who made everything perfect.

[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Gretch, we are back with this week's Happiness Hack.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, this is a hack that was inspired by my recent book tour. So I did many events and one of the events happened to be in California at a beautiful new library that had just recently opened. And as I was milling about and talking to people, several people commented that they had never visited this branch before because was brand new. Also, several people had said something like, oh, I've never been to the library before. Like they didn't realize that this was a new branch. They had never been to any branch of a library. And I have noticed that when I do speak at libraries that often people will kind of say, oh, this is so wonderful. I've never been here before. This is what a great place. Even though it's in their town, you know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And I do feel like there is this sort of inertia or the energy that it takes to do something for the first time, where until we've done something for the first time, we just have kind of a resistance to it. I remember when Eleanor went to kindergarten, she had like a main teacher and then like the Helper teacher. And she was like, well, when I think of the main teacher, I know what she looks like. But when I think of the helper teacher, his face is just like a swirl in my mind. And I thought that that was such a funny. Like, we always just referred to him as the swirl in her mind. Like she just could. And I think if you've never been someplace, it is like that. It's just like I don't even really know what's there. What's. What's the deal? And Elizabeth, you often talk about with Los Angeles, like, how do you park? The parking is such an issue. So I think with something like a library and. Or something like a museum, something that is sort of a public resource and something that might be a great thing to know about once you've discovered it. Just make yourself the aim of like, I'm just gonna go. I'm not even gonna get a library card. I'm not even gonna walk around. Maybe I'm gonna park there, or I'm gonna walk there, or I'm gonna take the subway there or whatever it is. I'm just gonna go walk through the door, look around, and if that's it, then I'm gonna leave. But I think for many people, if they would even do that, they might discover some whole giant resource right in their own backyard that they just had never gotten over. That little tiny stumbling block of going to for the first time. And you only have to go for the first time, one time, and then you're going back to someplace that's familiar.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. And it's smart to think about this. If you're out and about and you're passing by a place that you are interested in, you pull over and just pop in. You don't necessarily have to make a special trip.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Right. And I think that a lot of times there are places. I mean, there are definitely places like this in my life where I'm like, one of these days, I'm just gonna stop and take a look around. And then you just sort of never do. So I think, again, this is the idea of something that can happen at any time, is often done in no time. But you wanna do it because. Just take libraries. I mean, we've talked about the fact with libraries now, they have all kinds of things you can check out. Board games, puzzles, woodworking equipment. They have all kinds of stuff. Camping equipment you might find. Maybe they have a really cool book club you could join or a really great story hour for your kids. Like, you just may not know that it's there. We don't have this conversation so much anymore, Elizabeth. But there was a period where we were really trying to convince people about podcasts, where we were just like, there's this thing called the podcast app, and here it. And remember, we would be pulling people's phones out and showing it to them. And it was always so exciting because you could see that they were just like, wait, you're saying that all of this is already with me for free and I just have to listen to it and, oh, my gosh, I'm really into true crime. And there's this like a bananas number of hours of true crime. This is just waiting for me. And it was always really exciting. And I feel that way about libraries and also museums. If you live near a museum, you could join. It's like you're supporting the museum. It's not super expensive. You could go all the time and they're just waiting for you. Or a park. Maybe it's a park you've never visited. I still am discovering strange little nooks and crannies in Central park, even though I've been there. I'm like, wait a minute, I forgot there was a skating rink here. Like, I haven't walked around here for a while, or some kind of odd little grotto. But if you don't go the first time, you'll never know that it's there.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. And Gretch, I have to say, my own library. I am guilty of this. I haven't gone. I've driven by a million times thought, oh, I need to go there. So I'm gonna make a point when I'm out and about to just stop, look in, not feel that I have to stay, but just familiariz myself with it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And then I will be more likely to go back.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, and it's interesting because you use the library a lot because you check out audiobooks.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So you're a patron of the library, but you just never physically walk over the threshold.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Exactly. Right. I love my Libby.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I think there's something about walking through the doors. I really do.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And now for some listener answers. In episode 518, we talked about a question from a listener who had a questioner husband who would often pepper her with questions at inopportune times. And it was just really draining her. And so we talked about some of our suggestions for how she might handle that constructively. But we asked for listener suggestions, too, and we got a lot of really interesting answers, some from people who were themselves questioners. And I always think that you get a particular insight from somebody who sees the question from that tendencies perspective. But people had a lot of good things to say.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah yes, Kayla said. I am also an obliger and my husband is a questioner. We had a similar issue a few years ago and I thought some of these approaches might help the listener make information accessible. We have three school age kids and while we both work full time often I am the default parent for things like school updates, doctor's appointments, play dates, etc. A few years ago we took the time to set up a shared family Google calendar that we both have access to on our phones with all the important school dates, kids activities and family commitments. We also make sure we both have all of the same school communication apps, notifications from the kids, doctors, etc. Often it meant asking for an additional invitation or access code, but it has drastically reduced instances where he's asking me for things that only I know or have access to because we both have the same levels of access to all family information. Very smart.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Next, reframe the questioning. I was also somewhat annoyed by the barrage of questions. When my attention was on other things and when I reflected a bit more, I found it was because as an obliger, I interpreted every question as a task. Another item on my seemingly endless to do list. When I explained it from that lens, not just your questions are annoying, but my reaction to your questions is draining me. From my perspective, when you ask me questions about our family or plans, you're also asking me to stop what I'm doing to get you this information. And additionally that you see it as my responsibility to keep track of this info for our family. That really wasn't his intention at all. Similar to what Liz mentioned, he was usually just wanting to spend time with me and questions were his small talk. Once he had the context of how I was receiving the questions, he was much more aware of not adding things to my to do list and will even preface questions with I'm not asking you to solve this, I'm just checking to see if you know and if not I will go find out.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Constructive yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Finally she says question time with a twist. Apart from the logistical questions required to manage our household, my husband is a naturally curious person and I enjoy researching new information. We notice that whenever he is driving and I am a passenger, he'll share very random but interesting questions and if I'm not doing anything else, I can look up the answers on my phone. For instance, on a recent car trip to visit my parents, we went down a rabbit hole about where the PG13 rating came from and what was the inspiration for the song We Didn't Start the Fire. Over time, this has become a fun tradition that helps fill time on longer drives and I suspect help scratch his question or itch. Plus when he asks a random question outside of that context, I now will tell him I'm sorry, I'm not on duty at the moment. If he wants to save his question for our next car ride, he can raise it then or go find the answer answer himself. It's amazing how often he doesn't actually care enough about the answer to look it up himself and also gives me a light hearted way to decline to find the answer.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Oh these are such good suggestions. Yes, very constructive. Danette Said, I enjoyed your discussion about the woman who found her questioner husband to be annoying when she's on task. I recently had a related revelation about my questioner. I realized when he asked me where something is, I assume he's already looked. He hasn't. For example, if he asks where is the car key? Or where is that truck key? I begin wondering where could it be if it's not in the key drawer? So I tend to give random answers because I think he's already looked where it should be and now we are reaching for other potential locations. As a result, I have begun by saying where have you looked already? Or it's not in the key drawer. By establishing what action on his part has already taken place, I found that I can save myself unnecessary effort and start a reasonable response to the situation. And yes, it's annoying that instead of looking on his own he asks where things are. But at least I'm making the best of dealing with a questioner so that's been helpful for me. Yeah, I think people don't realize the cognitive drain that it is. Just like where is this thing? Because you do have to like well where is that thing? Where should that thing be anyway? That's a whole side issue, I would say.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Han said. As a full blown questioner myself, I don't think that her husband will agree that question time is more efficient in his mind. He is probably just trying to optimize his time. When off work. Should he check the weather forecast? If his wife just checked it half an hour ago, it's more efficient to check with her first. If she answers I don't know, then he can check himself. I often do this myself and thankfully my obliger leaning rebel husband does not get annoyed with me if he asks about her talking to his mother regarding Thanksgiving or Whatnot, it's an opportunity for him to check it off his mental list of tasks.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Tasks.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It would at least seem a lot less efficient to have to call his mom to ask whether they talked or not when his wife is just next to him. Is it because the listener feels like her husband is checking up on her, trying to hold her accountable? Just answer his questions. I don't know. Haven't checked today. Could you please check? It's the perfect opportunity for the listener to assign tasks to her husband. To me, she sounds like she feels a bit unappreciated. Also, he might just be trying to connect, get the conversation going, as Liz suggested. That's my question or perspective on the situation.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I think it's very helpful to hear the questioner perspective. But I just have to say that it is often in conversation, a polite way to suggest to somebody that they should be doing something is to ask them about it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That is kind of an indirect way to say to somebody, I think you should do this. And so I do think that questioners are sometimes like, I don't know where you get this idea. It's like. Because that is a thing that happens in conversation. And so you do have to be very explicit by saying, like, I am not asking you to do this. I'm just asking if this has happened. Or if somebody is, like, asking you just to say something like, well, I don't know. And just try to remember that this person is not trying to indirectly hint that I should do it, even if I'm interpreting it that way. And it's really reasonable that I could interpret it that way. It's not necessarily what is meant, because this is just how questioners go through the world. They just ask a lot of questions. But that is something that has to be managed, as we are seeing from this very conversation. It is something that does often come up in the context of questioners.

[Gretchen Rubin]

By the way, something that would be helpful, Gretch, is if instead of saying, did you talk to my mom about Thanksgiving? You could say, should I call my mom about Thanksgiving?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Ooh, I love it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The answer is, yes. Yes, do it. Or she can say, no, I talk to her.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, yes. Set up the default. The default is that I'm getting ready to do this unless you tell me that I don't need to. Or you could just say something like, has anyone talked to my mom about Thanksgiving? Obviously, anyone here would be me or you. But then it's just this general thing, and then, yeah, I think that is brilliant. Hey, questioners out there. This is a really good hack for you. If this is a conflict, which is make it clear that the assumption is that you're ready to do this, you could say something like, I'm gonna check the weather unless you know, if it's gonna rain later today.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hmm.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Right. That Elizabeth. Okay, my sister, the sage. What did I say? There we go. Bringing the sage to every conversation. Okay, and then Verdi says, I'm not sure that this woman's husband is a questioner. Based on the questions she supplied, it sounded more like weaponized incompetence. My husband, who is not a questioner, used to ask similar questions until I realized those questions were asking me to do the work for him. See, this is what we were just talking about. So suggesting a question time isn't going to resolve the issue. Getting him to take on some of the mental load of being a parent, husband, and adult person is what's needed. Why is the husband asking her if their child has homework? He should be asking their child, why is he asking his wife if she has made Thanksgiving plans with his mother? He should be talking to his own mother as far as asking about the weather. Well, he's got many options on how to figure that out as another stay at home mom. I know it can feel like we need to be in charge of everything family related, but we don't. Once I realized what my husband was doing, I stopped answering questions like these. Or I would say, I don't know. Why don't you ask xyz? It's taken a while, and I mean years, but he has taken more responsibility for tasks like the one she mentioned. Or at least now when he asks those types of questions, he responds to himself that he could figure it out himself. So again, this is another interpretation of what's going on.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Elle said, I have another suggestion for when a spouse interrupts with questions. When my husband interrupts, I say, let me finish what I am working on so I don't lose my train of thought and then I will answer your question. I am able to either quickly answer his question when I complete my task, or I say, let's discuss it later, and I suggest a time for the conversation. It works great.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Don says, my answer is a sort of combination of what both of you said. Back when my children were small, we took a parenting class and it was suggested that parents have something called couch time every day. It is a time set aside where the kids are not allowed to interrupt unless it's an emergency, of course, and we just talk. Couch time was great for our relationship. But over the years, it sort of fell away until we were in the empty nest phase, which was really, really hard for my husband and me. Really hard. We learned about John Gottman's, quote, bids for attention. And this is the researcher John Gottman, who writes a lot about couples, talks about a bid for attention, which is when you said, oh, look at the sunset, or what kind of movie do you feel like watching tonight? It's sort of an attempt to connect. It's a bid for attention. And we discovered that no matter what the question or how we perceive it, how you respond to a bid is what matters. My husband is notorious for wanting my attention at inopportune times, whether it is questions or conversation making me feel like I have to stop what I am doing to engage with him, which is incredibly annoying. Eventually, we realized that we needed to reinstate couch time for us. It is every weekday when we get home from work. Everything stops and we just talk. Sometimes it's 10 minutes, sometimes it's two hours. It has done wonders for our relationship and made a huge difference for both of us. Because I can say, let's talk about that at couch time. If I'm in the middle of something and he gets my undivided attention every day. This is a lovely idea. I think this solves many, many different challenges and issues. I think it's a great idea. I've never heard of that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, that would be a good. Try this at home couch time.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, it would.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And finally, Anonymous says I appreciated the listener question about their spouse's barrage of daily questions. Serious problem in my house. My solution was to send the episode to my husband. Working well so far. So thank you, fellow listener.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I love it. I love it. It's like, well, you could send this because this is more ideas too. And it also shows this is a common problem. This is a thing that many people face. And I think a lot of times just understanding this isn't just a breakdown in our relationship. This isn't just you being inconsiderate or me not knowing what to do. This is just a pattern that arises. And many people have faced this pattern. And many people have come up with very different creative and constructive solutions to it. But sometimes the emotion of it drains out when you realize this is just how they do. This is not to be unexpected. So what are you going to do about it? It just feels less personal. It just doesn't feel quite as. I don't know. Because it's a pattern, it doesn't feel as annoying to me. It seems like, and I noticed this with a lot of the four tendencies things when you're like, oh, this is a thing that a lot of people observe or experience. It's just like, oh, okay, well, now I can just focus on a solution instead of not understanding what's going on.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. So thanks everyone for those great suggestions. Coming up, I have an open OTF demerit A vs break hey Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the Mill Food Recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the plant it every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where MILL comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It can handle nearly anything from a.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pigs. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

You can use in your garden, add.

[Gretchen Rubin]

To your compost, feed to your chickens. Or MILL can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with Mill.

[Elizabeth Craft]

To really get it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, Elizabeth, it's time for demerits and gold stars. And this is an even numbered episode, which means it's your turn to talk about a demerit. And by the way, I want to just say, every once in a while, somebody emails us and they're like, hey, you two shouldn't just give yourselves demerits all the time. You should give yourselves gold stars. The whole point of demerits is that we don't do this to be hard on ourselves or to be unforgiving. It's that what we've noticed is that often by just saying something that we wish we had done a different way, it helps us to do better in the future. So we're doing this because it's part of a constructive process to make our lives happier, not because we're being harsh on ourselves. At least that's how it works for us. Your mileage may differ, but I really appreciate all the people that are like, oh, you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. But we take turns doing these demerits. And, Elizabeth, I for one, find them extremely helpful. Because a lot of times, even thinking about the fact like, okay, this is a demerit, I'm like, wait a minute, maybe I can just make a different decision right now.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. And, Gretch, my demerit may be a repeat. I may have talked about this before, and I may be talking about it again. It's one of those ongoing demerits. But again, talking about it helps me focus on it. And that is I'm behind my schedule on Orange Theory Fitness. So, you know, I do Orange Theory, which is an exercise class. I set a goal to do 100 Orange Theory Fitness classes in 2025. And I have been going to Orange Theory usually twice a week, which, if I went twice a week every week of the year, that would be enough. But I've had weeks where I wasn't able to go. So there are several weeks where I need to go at least three times, and I have not been doing that yet. So I have to get on the stick and catch up some of my classes. So I get to 100. So I'm saying that out loud to remind myself.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And you wanna start as early as possible because then you'll have the biggest buffer.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Exactly. I don't wanna, at the end, have to go five days a week, which.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Wouldn'T be good, not with the kind of exercise that Orangethair is. So let me ask you this. Have you done it three times in a week ever?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think one time yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And so have you figured out the timing of it? Like, I should do it Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday, or like, do you have an idea in your head of what that would look like?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Not really, because just it ends up that different days work. You always go Monday, but I don't. I. Sometime I go Thursday, sometimes I go Friday. It's hard to go on the weekends just because I have a lot of sort of preset things that I do on the weekend, so.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And you go on your hikes on the weekends, and that's special, which I.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Don'T want to give up. Exactly. So I don't know, maybe I need to try to try a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, one week and see if I can handle that. But it's just one of those things, and once I started doing it, I'd probably like doing it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, you have said that when you do it twice a week, it's easier to go and you enjoy it more than if you're doing it less. So, yeah, maybe doing it. But three times a week during the work week. That's every other day, you know? Yeah, you're right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's hard. But I want to reach my goal. I am determined.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

All right, Gretch, what is your gold star?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Eleanor's home for college. It's hard to believe. Okay, like, yeah, open door. She's coming back, swinging back through that open door. And so we had a day where it's like, okay, we're going to go pick you up. And I have to say, I had heard many, many stories from my fellow friends about you have it all arranged and you go pick them up, and it's just like, they're like in bed and nothing has been done right. Or one little bag has been packed with three pairs of tennis shoes. And then it's like nothing else has been put. It's like, oh, well, I got started this kind of thing, and what we wanted to do is we wanted to go out and back in one day. And it's like four or five hour drive. So I was very pleased that Eleanor was completely packed. She had put her stuff that she was leaving in storage, so that was all gone. She had put almost all of it into bags, but she had some things left over. And I think I talked about this when we were moving her in, that I had these giant, very light canvas or cotton bags where we had gotten some bedding in it. When you buy like a blanket or something, it comes in sort of the zippered bag. And so I had said to her, do you want me to just bring these because they're so light and small, I can just. Just carry them easily. It's not like a suitcase or something. And if there's anything left over, we can dump them in there. And she said, yeah, that's probably a good idea. You might as well. Because she thought she had enough bags and suitcases and stuff, but she wasn't sure. And, you know, we've all had this thing where it's always just slightly more voluminous than you think. You know, you're just like, wow, I thought I had plenty of room for all this stuff, but it didn't quite fit. I think they have these bags from ikea. I hear about people talking about them. I don't really know what those are, but I think they're these big blue bags that zip anyway.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

But you get the idea to just sort of oversize people. And so that was great, because at the last minute, Jamie and I just went around, and again, it was just like shoes, twinkle lights from the ceiling, like a raincoat that had been hanging on a door on a hook that she'd forgotten about. Just these odds and ends. So we just dumped them in. It took, like 10 minutes, and then we were out. And I just want to give a gold star to Eleanor because she was doing all of her exams, all her papers and everything, but she really got it done. And so we were able to just go up there, have lunch, load the car, and leave. And that made our life generally much, much easier. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. You remember getting out of your dorm room and you have to leave everything clean and all that. So gold star to Eleanor. Yeah. It was just really hard to believe that there we were picking her up.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Yeah, well, and I will mention Eleanor's an upholder, so she is an upholder. Upholder of her to have her things all packed.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, yes. It was not out of character for her. But on the other hand, I'm like. But sometimes maybe things like being a freshman in college and exam week, an upholder might be like, it's more important for me to work for that extra time on my exam or whatever. You never know exactly how it's gonna go. But, yes, it was a very pleasant thing to see when we arrived. And the resource for this week here in the United States, Father's Day is coming up. It is going to be Sunday, June 15th. If you are looking for a gift for a father or a father figure in your life, if you're consider an item in the Happiness Project collection. If your person loves a habit tracker, there's the Don't Break the Chain habit Tracker. There's Drinkware. There's the I Want yout To Know journal. That's something that you could fill out and give to this father figure in your life. It's a very lovely gift. This was hugely popular. We sold out, but now we have more. You can find [e-mail] shop or just go to my website and look for shop. What are we reading? Elizabeth, what are you reading?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I am reading an advanced reader's copy of all the Way to the River, Love, Loss, and Liberation by Elizabeth Gilbert.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And I am reading the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. That's actually a reread. And that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Make a before and after album of your project. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Thanks to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Rate us review us us tell people about the show. And if you love the show, leave a review to let us know until next week.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm Elizabeth Craft.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And I'm Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward. You know, Elizabeth, I never got to see your house before. You did a lot to it. By the time I saw it, I would love to have seen. I mean, you told me all about it. People didn't take just gigantic numbers of photos the way they do now.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I know. It blows my mind.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I know. I really wish that I could see it. I mean, because it's changed, even just over the years.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Now I can't believe I don't have that. Maybe somewhere it's on, like, a website I could find when it was for sale.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That could be fun. You should look it up. From the Onward project.