← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Ep. 542: Point to Your Ugliest Thing, Use Photos to Save Memories & Understand Obliger-Rebellion
00:28:20
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- [00:02]
Elizabeth Craft
Lemonada.
- [00:12]
Gretchen Rubin
Hello, and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about how to build happier habits into our everyday lives. This week, we'll talk about why you should point to your ugliest thing. And we'll discuss a listener's question about a young adult son who suddenly started acting out of character. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature. I'm in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. My sister, the sage.
- [00:38]
Elizabeth Craft
That's me. Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in la. And Gretch, I try to be sage. Like, often I am not.
- [00:47]
Gretchen Rubin
Before we jump in, we got an interesting note from Tracy.
- [00:50]
Elizabeth Craft
She said, I've really enjoyed your recent conversations around the silent book club movement and the evolving ways people are connecting through reading. It inspired me to to share something I recently joined that puts a fun twist on the concept. My local library launched a walking audiobook club. Instead of everyone reading the same book, we meet up, put in our headphones, and go for a walk while listening to our chosen audiobooks. Along the way, we stop for coffee, chat about what we're listening to, and just get to know one another. It's a simple but really refreshing idea. Quiet time, fresh air, and the freedom to explore our own book choices while while still connecting with others who love to read. It made me think of the way you talk about community and how people are finding new ways to connect. I love this.
- [01:38]
Gretchen Rubin
I love this idea. What a great way to join a group. Enjoy nature, enjoy books. That's fantastic.
- [01:45]
Elizabeth Craft
Yeah, wonderful.
- [01:46]
Gretchen Rubin
And this week, our try this at home suggestion is to point to your ugliest thing.
- [01:51]
Elizabeth Craft
All right, Gretch, you have to explain what you mean by this.
- [01:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, it came up in a conversation. So my husband Jamie started his podcast because everybody in our family has to have a podcast. His podcast is called After Hours. It's all about sort of urban issues and policy. And in an episode called the Art of Urban Governance, he was interviewing Mira Joshi, who is someone who has led nine agencies that cover all facets of New York City life. I mean, trash, street cleaning, buildings. And he was asking her, how do you oversee such huge agencies that have so many people and so many diverse responsibilities? Like, how do you just do that? And she was making the point that one of the things you have to do is you have to go out in the field. You really have to look around and see what's there. And she said, I would say to people, show me your ugliest thing in your portfolio. What's your ugliest asset? What? What's the thing that needs the most help? And she said that she could very quickly learn a lot by looking at that thing. The ugliest thing. And it occurred to me that this is kind of true in life generally.
- [02:56]
Elizabeth Craft
Totally. I mean, it's like you always say, gretch, the sink. You know, looking under the sink.
- [03:02]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [03:03]
Elizabeth Craft
Because it's the ugliest thing.
- [03:04]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. In my apartment, I always feel like under the kitchen sink is a super creepy area, and no matter what I do, it stays super creepy. But even talking about it now, I'm like, I want to tackle my under the sink again. It is the ugliest thing.
- [03:16]
Elizabeth Craft
So. So this is true both literally and then also metaphorically. Like, for sure, you can apply it to marriage. Right. So I think we all have the, quote, ugliest thing in our relationships. Some thing that we always fight about that you could say, well, let's look at this and try to resolve it. In my case, it's probably we always fight about being on time. I want to be on time. Adam doesn't care so much.
- [03:39]
Gretchen Rubin
Right. Or it could be something like credit card debt. Because often when something is really ugly, we want to avert our eyes. We don't want to look at it. We want to look at what's good and what's pretty and what's working. And it's like, okay. But really looking at that thing and identifying it first and then second attending to it. And it probably does show you a lot about the whole system if you look at the thing that's not working most.
- [04:07]
Elizabeth Craft
Gretchen. Also for habits, bad habits, looking at your ugliest habit is definitely useful, if not pleasant.
- [04:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Mm, exactly. Because there's probably one thing that if you tried to look for it, it would stand out. I mean, for me, one of my ugliest things is scheduling. I know that I have my motto, scheduling is life. But this is something that I really need to stay on top of the minute. I don't do it. It just gets harder. But it's definitely something that I'm like, okay, I need to look at this and figure out, are there solutions for this? Could I make it easier and better? Instead of just slogging through it, let me turn my attention to it properly and try to fix it. Yeah.
- [04:47]
Elizabeth Craft
And I think somehow acknowledging that it's ugly makes it easier to look at. I don't know why that is. It makes it seem like, well, it's ugly. That's not my fault. It's just, it's ugly. It feels like it's depersonalizing it somehow.
- [05:02]
Gretchen Rubin
And it also makes it feel more concrete, like it's an actual thing. Because I can imagine people saying least successful or biggest opportunity for improvement or something like, no, that thing is ugly.
- [05:13]
Elizabeth Craft
Yeah, let's call it what it is.
- [05:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Call it ugly. Yeah, there's a little bit of whimsy there, strangely. Well, let us know if you do try this at home and how pointing to your ugliest thing works for you. And what is your ugliest thing? I think it'll be fascinating to see what people end up pointing to. Let us know on Instagram threads, TikTok, Facebook. Drop us an email@podcastretchenrubin.com or as always, you can go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com542 for everything related to this episode.
- [05:41]
Elizabeth Craft
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- [06:18]
Gretchen Rubin
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- [06:57]
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- [08:12]
Elizabeth Craft
All right, Gretch, we are back with a happiness hack. This is something fun that you thought of recently?
- [08:17]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, it's fun, but I thought of it in the context of regret, which is a very painful emotion. But so for my project Empty nest project, I was making a list of my regrets. This is a time where a lot of people experience regret. And so I really wanted to write down my regrets. And one of the things that I regret is that I did not take photographs and of the gifts that Eliza and Eleanor received each Christmas and at their birthdays. And I was thinking about this because Eliza and I were talking about her my little pony castle, which I remember, like, putting together with a screwdriver when I was, like, very pregnant. Like, I have a distinct memory of, like, being up late and making the my little pony castle. Cause Jamie was out of town. She was like, I love that my pony castle. And it had, like, the oven, it had the magnets, and the pony would spin. And I'm like, gosh, I would have loved to have the picture of all the gifts to be like, oh, that was the season of my little pony. Because there's something about these artifacts from childhood that just brings back so many memories, and yet they're easy to forget. I feel like just having pictures of the gifts they got or, like, when they get to the stage, when they want clothes, what were the clothes? Or, like, just the little fads that children go through, I feel like this would be, you know, I love having an easy hack for holding onto memories. And if you're not gonna keep a long journal, I feel like just these pictures, maybe with a little bit of commentary, like, this was her favorite gift, or she'd been waiting for this for six months or something, would really be this amazing timeline and also kind of a cultural time capsule.
- [09:51]
Elizabeth Craft
Time capsule.
- [09:52]
Gretchen Rubin
Right. Because I mean, Elizabeth, what would we give to go back and see? What did we each get for our birthday when we were 8 years old? I mean, it would be so fascinating. What books did we ask for? Yes, you could see the change in technology. Like nobody's asking for a calculator anym. Anyway, I feel like one of my duties is to be a treasure house of happy memories. This is like one of the roles that I play for myself and for my family. This just seems like an easy and fun way to do it. I bet your kids would be really into it to like make a display and have you photograph it. I would have loved to do that.
- [10:24]
Elizabeth Craft
That is such a fun idea, Gretch. I love it.
- [10:26]
Gretchen Rubin
I love that idea.
- [10:27]
Elizabeth Craft
I would love to go back and see my gifts. I remember one year I got like all these office supplies. Like I was really into playing teacher office. And I still remember all the fresh suppl that I got one Christmas.
- [10:41]
Gretchen Rubin
Maybe that was also when you were playing Divorce Attorney.
- [10:45]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes. One of my favorite pretend games, Dividing assets.
- [10:52]
Gretchen Rubin
That is truly one of the funniest. Like if somebody's like, tell me something about you that we don't know. You could be like, as a child, I played divorce Attorney. You have to say that is very funny. I remember you playing divorce Attorney. You'd hold the phone up to your ear. I mean, how you knew how to do it, I don't even know. I mean, I know television. I don't know. It's so funny. And now for another segment. But we are not going to reveal the name of the segment because it would be a complete spoiler alert. So there's going to be a moment of suspense. And this is a question that I saw posed from a mother on social media who was asking for advice about an issue with her 20 year old son. And so we won't use any names in case the person would want to be anonymous. And we will reveal the name of the segment at the end. So Elizabeth read this question.
- [11:36]
Elizabeth Craft
So this is paraphrasing what she said on social media. She said her son had always been a pleasure to be around, need much parenting, and never had any typical teen behavior until now. Her son lived in a dorm in the university he attended nearby, and he and his father were going to work out together at their gym. Her husband was 10 minutes late meeting him, and when he didn't apologize to his son, his son said, are you going to apologize? Her husband was taken aback because he thought the son was kidding and then said something like, I'm Sorry, but I didn't think it was a big deal. Their son walked away and he's not talked to her husband for almost three weeks. Her husband texted him a couple times, apologizing. And then before her son went on a big trip, her husband sent him an audio message that was saying he respects his feelings and he apologizes. Nothing. No response. Very out of character for him and very upsetting for the parents. His mother was saying that her friends agree this is extreme, but maybe this is typical teen behavior. Why is he being so oversensitive? Is this a stage? 3 weeks of not talking to his dad, who is so kind, seems a little excessive and disrespectful.
- [12:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, Elizabeth, what am I thinking?
- [12:53]
Elizabeth Craft
Well, I know right away, Obliger Rebellion.
- [12:57]
Gretchen Rubin
Obliger Rebellion. The name of the segment is Four Tendencies. Tip. I think this is Obliged Rebellion. It has all the earmarks. Easy, right? Meeting expectations regularly. Then suddenly the snap, the moment where it says, this is it, I've had it, I'm walking away, it's over. And this is a great example how from the outside, Obliger Rebellion is super confusing because these parents are saying, this wasn't a big deal, like, he screwed up, he apologized. We've made all these efforts. This is a totally disproportionate response. What is going on? And what I would say from my observation is probably, without even realizing it, because your son wasn't speaking up. There were things where he was feeling overlooked or taken advantage of or disrespected. That there was encroachment. Maybe this is a thing about time. Maybe there is something about time here. Are you using up my time in a way where I feel like the burden is getting heavier and heavier and heavier and then suddenly I'm going to stop. And so whenever there is this moment of somebody is acting out of character, it's sort of like an explosion after just a passing comment or one little violation. To me, that always feels like it's a blight of rebellion that's going on. And what that means is this is just this final straw that broke the camel's back in a long pattern, that the pressure has been mounting and mounting and mounting. So it isn't just the single thing. You can't just focus on the single thing because it's not just the single, it's the pattern.
- [14:38]
Elizabeth Craft
And I think it's important what you said, Gretchen, that it can be totally unintentional on the part of his parents.
- [14:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [14:46]
Elizabeth Craft
Doesn't mean you set about to overload him or take advantage of him. But it is wise now to look at the past, see what's been happening and address it on a deeper level so that he feels heard, he feels seen, and he can decompress this and you can go back to having what seems sounds like a fantastic relationship.
- [15:09]
Gretchen Rubin
So there's the cautionary note for the parents, which is this is Obliger rebellion. So you need to figure out why that's going on. But this is also a good story for obligers because here is a kid like you say, seemed to have a really good relationship with his parents and now that has been very seriously disrupted. That's a really big negative consequence. And so if you're an obliger and you feel the building resentment, you feel the storm warnings coming, which obligers do they start feeling? Like this mounting sen of anger and resentment, you need to speak up because people don't know. People will often be burdening you with expectations, pushing you too hard. But just because of the very fact that obligers are so amazing and so reliable and consistent and are the people that come through, they are taken advantage of and they don't realize they're taking advantage of you because you're not saying like, well, I really don't want to do this or I had other plans or you're really disrupting my schedule for the day or whatever. They don't know that. And so they're not changing their behavior. So an obliger needs to start to find ways to speak up so that others can start to adapt. Because if you don't tell them, they probably aren't gonna do anything different. They're not aware of what's going on perhaps. And then something like this happens and it's very distracting, right, because everybody's so confused and perplexed and full of emotion. You don't understand like what's really going on.
- [16:31]
Elizabeth Craft
Well, hopefully if the mom can understand what's going on, they can talk about it and have a bigger convers conversation with their son, repair whatever the problem is and then not get into that situation again.
- [16:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Absolutely. And again, if you want to know more about the four tendencies, just go to my site gretchenrubin.com, there's a ton there, there's a quiz there so you can find out your tendency. And there's a lot of resources there to understand different tendencies. But I will say that Obliger rebellion is one of the most mysterious phenomenon. And if you understand it, so many possibilities, puzzling things become clear. So good luck.
- [17:07]
Elizabeth Craft
That's an important.
- [17:08]
Gretchen Rubin
It's important.
- [17:09]
Elizabeth Craft
All right, Gretchen. Coming up, we've got some listener answers. Always love those. But first, this break. Introducing the new Dell AI PC powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor. It's not just an AI computer, it's a computer built for AI. That means it's built to help do your busy work for you so you can fast forward through editing images, designing.
- [17:41]
Gretchen Rubin
Presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you were looking for, managing your schedule, beating your deadlines, responding to Jim's long emails.
- [17:55]
Elizabeth Craft
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- [18:53]
Gretchen Rubin
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- [19:36]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes, Wendy said. I listen with interest about your suggestion for a before and after photo book. I have a few thoughts about this. 1. If you do not have before photos of a space you have purchased or rented, these are often available online from the time it was listed by the real estate agents. This can be an absolute treasure trove. 2. Having a regular reminder to take a short photo or video from the same spot in your house or garden can be super fun to compare. Doing it each season is amazing to see how things are growing and changing in the garden or how you've rearranged, acquired, purged things from your indoor space. 3. A regular set of photos or video walkthrough of your home can be super helpful for insurance purposes should you ever need to claim due to major or minor structural damage. I recommend doing it at least once a year.
- [20:29]
Gretchen Rubin
I mean these are great ideas. Absolutely, Sharon said while listening to your episode about before and after I thought about a project I just completed. I live in Ohio and my brother and his family live in Texas. In 2023 they purchased some land and 2024 was their first complete year at what they named White Rock Ranch. My sister in law would text me a flower for my sister pictures whenever she was out walking the property as well as projects they were working on, including her garden. I would identify the flower tree it set up for her and send back the information. At some point during the year I realized that it would be a great gift to make a book. My first Shutterfly project in time for her birthday in May 2025. I placed the pictures according to the date they were sent so that it would accurately reflect the progress of the year. It turned out to be the best gift ever. They now have a first full year look at the before and after, what they accomplished and an idea of what grows and when. Another great idea related to gardens.
- [21:26]
Elizabeth Craft
So lovely. I bet she'll love getting that book. Allie said. I would encourage people to make two copies, one to keep for themselves and another to leave in the home if you were to ever move away. When we purchased our current house, we found a file in the office that had photos from several renovations over the years. It was a photographic history of our home, which was originally built in the 1970s. We learned that it hadn't always been this big and that a large addition had been added. In the 90s. We saw the outside architecture go from a Spanish style to a modern farmhouse. We saw how the swimming pool went from a basic rectangle to a large curvy oval with various levels. We even got to see a magazine article from a local design magazine that featured our kitchen. It was an amazing discovery that showed us how much life and love had taken place here and made us even more excited about all the memories we would make. It is an amazing gift to a home buyer as they embark on their life in the structure that is now home. Well, I love that idea as a gift for the New homeowner. That's so sweet.
- [22:32]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes. And, Elizabeth, you and I have both done quite a bit to our homes. It would be fascinating to know what had happened before. Like, I would love to know what this apartment had looked like at different stages. I think this is a great idea.
- [22:45]
Elizabeth Craft
Well, and think about mom and dad live in an apartment that I think was built in around 19. So imagine the changes that's been through.
- [22:54]
Gretchen Rubin
It would be a lovely thing to leave for the new person because I think we do have a very emotional feeling about our home, and often people feel a deep sense of connection to the person who comes after them. So it would really be lovely to have something to give them that would be like, oh, you know, I wish you well, and may you have a happy life in my home. It'd be very nice.
- [23:14]
Elizabeth Craft
It's like the way presidents leave notes for each other in the Oval Office.
- [23:19]
Gretchen Rubin
Exactly. And then finally, demerits and gold stars. Elizabeth, this is an even numbered episode, which means it's your turn to talk about a demerit.
- [23:28]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes. Okay. Gretchen, this isn't deep, but it is a demerit, which is that I did not bring our boogie boards to our recent family vacation in Santa Barbara. So, you know, we live in California near the beach, although we almost never go to the beach. But Jack really enjoys boogie boarding.
- [23:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Wait, can I just say, Heard of boogie boards, but I'm not 100% clear on what a boogie board actually is.
- [23:55]
Elizabeth Craft
Okay. A boogie board is like. It's sort of like a large kickboard looking thing. Like, you could either call it a short surfboard or a long kickboard.
- [24:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay.
- [24:06]
Elizabeth Craft
And you paddle out or wade out in the ocean, and as waves come, you ride them into shore on your knees or your stomach. Yeah.
- [24:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, okay.
- [24:16]
Elizabeth Craft
It doesn't require the skill of surfing. It's just a fun thing to do at the beach. And it is very fun, by the way. Really, really fun.
- [24:26]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay.
- [24:27]
Elizabeth Craft
So we were going to Santa Barbara, and I sort of said aloud, should we bring the boogie boards? And then Adam was like, well, they'll probably have them there. And I thought, yeah, they probably will, because a lot of rental houses have boogie boards. Well, sure enough, we got there and they did not. And it was a perfect spot for boogie boarding, because you need a certain kind of shore and waves to boogie board. And I just thought, wait, the whole reason that we bought these boogie boards was so that when we go to the beach, we can take them with us. They do no good in our house. Why in the world did I Not just automatically put them in the trunk. Gretchen's also an example of what you talk about. Like, why are you asking someone a question that doesn't need an answer? I did not need to ask Adam his opinion on whether or not we needed boogie boards. I could have just said, oh, we're going to Santa Barbara. Obviously I should bring at least one boogie board, if not two or three, because I think we have three. And it was just dumb.
- [25:35]
Gretchen Rubin
Right? I mean, looking back, it seems so obvious because we've all done it both ways. We've forgotten the thing that was perfectly obvious, or we've brought something where we're like, oh, my gosh, we could have just left this at home. Like, why are we drown dragging this around? It's funny, though, about asking for information you don't need. One thing that I have finally learned after years is never say to Jamie, do you think we need umbrellas? Because he will always say, we don't need an umbrella. I mean, unless it's like, actually pouring rain. The minute we step out, he's like, we don't need an umbrella. And why do I ask him? He will always say no.
- [26:05]
Elizabeth Craft
Yeah. And in this case, what's funny is, I mean, we could have just put them in the car and then left them there and only got them out if in fact, there were no boogie boards.
- [26:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Right, Exactly. It's not like, oh, we're gonna check them at the airport in an oversized bag. And, you know, it's like a whole production. This is just toss them in the trunk.
- [26:23]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes. So I'm never gonna make that mistake again. I'm just stating that now. Always gonna bring a boogie board. Maybe that's some sort of aphorism. Gretch.
- [26:32]
Gretchen Rubin
Always bring the boogie board. Yes. No, it does. It has the ring of a secretive adulthood to it. Yeah, well, this is the point of demerits is by articulating it, it sort of helps it stick into our brain more. And so the next time you're like, we're going to the beach.
- [26:46]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes. I'm not going to ask anyone's opinion. I'm just going to stick it in the trunk.
- [26:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah.
- [26:50]
Elizabeth Craft
All right, Gretch, but what is your gold star this week?
- [26:53]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, so I want to give a gold star to our dog, Barnaby. So we have a 10 year old dog, Barnaby. He's a super chill dog. And then we have our new puppy, Taffy, who's like a very typical puppy, and she's so excited about Barnaby. She follows him around and she, like, wants to, like, get all up in his face. And he is being patient. I would say he does not love it. They're not, like, chasing each other in circles or anything like that. Which I have to admit was kind of my fantasy, because Barnaby is a very kind of playful, social dog. But everybody says it's very typical that this would. This would be the dynamic. He is never aggressive to Taffy. He's never, like, growling at her or menacing her or anything like that. But he will stand apart from her, look in the distance and give a kind of, like, come on, what's going on here? But he is very patient, and he's getting better and better. At first he was a lot more distant and seemed a lot more annoyed by her. But now, like, if we're both playing, they can get very close. And if she's really tired and doesn't have that puppy energy, then it's fine. They will both snuggle up next to each other. If they, like, jump onto our bed, which maybe some people are shocked that we let our dogs onto our bed, but we do. So then they can be close together or, like, if they're riding in the car. Barnaby will often rest his head on Taffy's body or vice versa. So when she's just calm, he's very tolerant. But when she's more running around, like, if he walks into a room and she's racing around, he doesn't like that very much. But the funny thing is, is he's drawn to her, too. He could just go off into a corner, and if she didn't know where he was, she would just. She's not gonna chase him all over the place. But he doesn't. He'll come. And I'm like, barnaby, you can be here and play, or you can go be on your own, but don't just stand here and look annoyed. But again, it's getting better and better and better. And if any listeners have suggestions about how to help, we did talk to a trainer, and we're doing everything the trainer says, and it does seem to be working. But if anybody has any suggestions about. About how to help dogs get used to each other. But as I've said many times, Barnaby has a super special toy, which is his Abominable Snowman toy. And we guard this thing. We make sure Taffy never gets to this. It's way, way, way too important. She doesn't get to play with that. But he'll get it out and move it around the apartment. So we're always having to scoop it up and put it someplace that she can't reach that he can reach to make sure that it stays protected from her puppy teeth.
- [29:22]
Elizabeth Craft
Well, I saw a picture of Barnaby and Taffy sleeping side by side, and it was so cute. So I think they're gonna be best friends.
- [29:31]
Gretchen Rubin
I think because of Nacho and Daisy and the way Nacho was so excited for Daisy and it was like dream come true for him and friend for life. And because Barnaby is social, I think I assumed too much that he would be really excited.
- [29:44]
Elizabeth Craft
But Nacho was only like six months old, so I also think that's different.
- [29:48]
Gretchen Rubin
But it's all going very, very well, and we love both dogs. And a gold star for Barnaby for adjusting to being the big brother in the family.
- [29:56]
Elizabeth Craft
What's the resource for this week?
- [29:58]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, this month on the Happier App, I am teaming up with Paper Source to bring a fun and practical way to help everybody jumpstart the habit of journal keeping. This can be a great tool for building a happier, healthier, more productive life. A lot of people want the habit of journal keeping, but they struggle with it. And starting July 6, you can follow along in the Happier app for seven days of concrete, actionable prompts. And the Happier app is free to download in the App Store or Google Play. So if that is something that would help you have fun this summer, you should give it a shot.
- [30:30]
Elizabeth Craft
That's awesome.
- [30:31]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, it's really fun. And Elizabeth, what are we reading? What are you reading?
- [30:35]
Elizabeth Craft
I'm still reading Climbing in Heels by Elaine Goldsmith Thomas.
- [30:40]
Gretchen Rubin
And I am reading Two Serious Ladies by Jane Bowles. And that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Point to your ugliest thing. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you. And what was your ugliest thing?
- [30:56]
Elizabeth Craft
Thanks to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada. And if you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, do it now. Because guess what? You can listen totally ad free. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other ad app that is.
- [31:16]
Gretchen Rubin
Lemonadapremium.Com and here's your rhyming reminder. If you're a fan of the show, make sure your friends know word of mouth is how people discover our show.
- [31:28]
Elizabeth Craft
Love it. Until next week. I'm Elizabeth Craft.
- [31:31]
Gretchen Rubin
And I'm Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward. Wait, Alyssa said that with a boogie board. So I think you want to call it a short surfboard because that sounds more glamorous. You go out and then you just kneel on it or lie on it and ride the wave in.
- [31:57]
Elizabeth Craft
Yes, exactly. But you don't go out all that far, right? I mean, it's for like little waves. You're not probably boogie boarding a six foot wave.
- [32:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, okay.
- [32:06]
Elizabeth Craft
I have to say, I am not an expert. I'm probably the last person who should be speaking on boogie boarding. But when I have managed to do it, it is a blast.
- [32:17]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, that's so fun. Okay, well, maybe I'll give it a try sometime when we go to the beach. It does sound fun. From the onward project.