Ep. 557: Happier Book Club: Liz Gilbert Talks About Love, Addiction & Grief in “All the Way to the River”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode 557: Happier Book Club: Liz Gilbert Talks About Love, Addiction & Grief in “All the Way to the River”

Release Date: October 22, 2025
Host(s): Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft
Guest: Elizabeth (Liz) Gilbert

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Overview

In this installment of the Happier Podcast Book Club, Gretchen Rubin and her co-host/sister Elizabeth Craft sit down with bestselling author Elizabeth Gilbert to discuss her latest memoir, All the Way to the River: Love, Loss, and Liberation. The conversation delves into the profound themes in Gilbert’s book—love, addiction, codependency, grief, and personal transformation—centered around her intense relationship with her late partner and friend, Rayya Elias. With raw honesty, Gilbert discusses her creative process, life in recovery, and the lessons she hopes readers can take away.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Meaning Behind the Title (05:35–11:34)

• Gilbert explains how "the river" became a metaphor for mortality and the deepest intimacy between her and Rayya, developed from a running inside joke about New York geography and friendship levels.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 05:46):
    “The book is called All the Way to the River. ... We very quickly started referring to her death as the river. ... That’s the greatest gift in the entire world. And for years, she had called me her 'all the way to the river' friend. And I wore that badge with a great deal of honor.”
• Gretchen reads a poignant passage from the memoir, emphasizing how such relationships are both profound and perilous.
  • Quote (Gretchen Rubin, reading from Gilbert's memoir, 06:40):
    “Intimacy at that level is rough. ... I would have not missed my journey with Rayya for anything in the world. But I’m not entirely sure I would recommend it.”
• Explanation of Rayya’s “friendship map” using NYC streets as metaphors for increasing intimacy (08:41).

2. Transparency, Writing, and Honoring Rayya (11:34–13:26)

• Gilbert describes Rayya’s radical transparency and her lifelong desire to be known, as well as her express wish for Gilbert to write about her.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 11:40):
    “Rayya really deeply, for her whole life, wanted to be known and had a gift for transparency that was unrivaled...she led with the shadow parts that most people spend their lives trying to hide.”
• Rayya’s own creative output about addiction affirmed this approach.

3. Honesty, Restraint, and Memoir Ethics (17:36–21:20)

• Discussion of how Gilbert calibrated what to share or omit—fully exposing herself and Rayya but drawing boundaries around other people in their story.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 18:00):
    “The only people who I feel like I was allowed to expose were myself and Rayya...I honestly didn’t want to write this book at all.”
• She describes her struggle with the pain of revisiting those memories and how the book lingered until she had to confront it.
• Gretchen ties this into the idea of “blocking projects”—creative efforts that cannot be bypassed.

4. Understanding Codependency and Addiction (22:01–25:41)

• Gilbert articulates how her own recovery work allowed her to examine codependency and love addiction, making these concepts accessible for readers.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 22:01):
    “I was in those [12-step] programs uncovering these things in myself...One of the words that I felt like was a motive for me as I was writing the book was forensic.”
• Shares memorable definitions and jokes from her recovery experience:
  • “Codependency is watching in horror as someone else’s life flashes before your face.” (24:10)
  • “The motto of the codependent is: you break it, we fix it.”
  • “How do you kill a codependent? You lock them in a round, windowless, empty room and tell them someone in the corner is suffering and needs their help.”

5. Emotional Toll of Writing and Recording (25:41–27:40)

• Gilbert discusses the emotional process of recording the audiobook, doing so in Rayya’s former producer’s studio for intimacy and connection.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 26:06):
    “I did start crying multiple times...I can’t go sit in a sterile recording studio and read this book while some tech bro is at the soundboard. I need to be in a place that’s safe.”

6. Creativity, Productivity, and Addiction (27:42–31:10)

• Gilbert reflects on the paradox of being highly productive while dealing with addiction, citing creativity as her lifelong safe space.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 28:11):
    “Work is a place I run to, to hide in...My relationship with my creativity is probably the healthiest relationship I have in my life.”
  • She encourages women, especially in midlife, to unapologetically claim and own their competence.

7. Recovery, Influence, and Public Response (34:01–37:24)

• Gilbert confirms hearing from people entering 12-step programs prompted by her memoir, and shares a powerful story of Rayya’s pride in helping others.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 34:56):
    “That’s the part too that I know Rayya would love...she wanted to have her story help people.”
• She’s received messages from people returning to recovery across a spectrum of addictions.

8. Navigating Family Reactions and Integrity in Memoir (37:24–38:46)

• Describes involving Rayya’s family and friends in the manuscript process, making changes for privacy or accuracy when needed.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 38:04):
    “I gave the manuscript a year before it was published to everybody in her family...Let me know if there’s anything in here that was either unfair or untrue.”

9. Attention, Success, and Staying Grounded after Publication (38:46–42:14)

• Gilbert discusses balancing exposure and success (e.g., Oprah’s Book Club) with her need for stability and recovery.
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 41:12):
    “Nothing goes in front of my sobriety. ... It was an intense couple weeks when the book came out...But as long as I keep my focus on what keeps me well, I should be okay.”

10. Try This at Home: Letters from Love Practice (42:14–44:56)

• Gilbert shares a concrete mental health practice: writing a daily letter to oneself from the spirit of unconditional love (the “SOUL” practice).
  • Quote (Elizabeth Gilbert, 42:30):
    “Every day I write myself a daily letter from what I call the spirit of unconditional love, which conveniently spells SOUL...the letter always begins with the same prompt: ‘Dear Love, what would you have me know today?’”
  • She’s built an online community around this on Substack (“Letters from Love”), now with over 200,000 members.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Intimacy at that level is rough. ... I would have not missed my journey with Rayya for anything in the world. But I’m not entirely sure I would recommend it.” (Gretchen Rubin reading from Gilbert’s memoir, 06:40)
• “The only people who I feel like I was allowed to expose were myself and Rayya." (Elizabeth Gilbert, 18:00)
• “Codependency is watching in horror as someone else’s life flashes before your face.” (Elizabeth Gilbert, 24:10)
• “Nothing goes in front of my sobriety.” (Elizabeth Gilbert, 41:12)
• “If you need a non-toxic place on the Internet…it is the safest and most loving community on the internet.” (Elizabeth Gilbert, 44:03)

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Important Timestamps

• The origin of “the river” metaphor: 05:35–11:34
• Radical honesty & writing about Rayya: 11:34–13:26
• Memoir ethics, restraint, and exposure: 17:36–21:20
• Explaining codependency & addiction: 22:01–25:41
• Audiobook recording and processing grief: 25:41–27:40
• Creativity as refuge and productivity: 27:42–31:10
• 12-step influence and stories of helping others: 34:01–37:24
• Memoir review process with family and friends: 37:24–38:46
• Handling public attention and sobriety: 38:46–42:14
• “Try this at home”—SOUL letter-writing practice: 42:14–44:56

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers an emotionally rich exploration of love, loss, honesty, and self-reckoning, anchored in the story of Gilbert and Rayya. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the complexities of addiction and codependency, the challenges and ethics of personal writing, and a practical daily tool to foster self-compassion.

Try this at home: Start a daily practice of writing a letter to yourself from the spirit of unconditional love:
“Dear Love, what would you have me know today?”

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For more discussion, reflections, and resources, visit Happiercast.com/557.

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“Whenever it is and wherever you are, there’s always a book waiting for you.”
— Gretchen Rubin (45:12)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

Lemonada.

[A]

Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast about how to be happier. We discuss cutting edge science, the wisdom of the ages, lessons from pop culture, and our own experiences with things like reading. Because one way to be happier is to read great books. And this week it is the Happier Podcast Book Club with Elizabeth Gilbert. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature, secrets of adulthood. I'm in my little home office in New York City. And joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft, my favorite person to have on any reading retreat or conversation about reading.

[B]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in Los Angeles. And Gretchen, I loved this book, absolutely.

[A]

Can'T wait to get into it. So six and a half years ago we launched our happier podcast Book Club and today we are thrilled to talk about our latest choice, the absolutely unputdownable memoir all the Way to the Love, Loss and Liberation by Elizabeth Gilbert. Liz Gilbert is known for books like her blockbuster memoir, her 2006 Eat Pray Love, which sold more than 30 million copies and was made into a movie starring Julia Roberts as Liz Gilbert. Other books include Committed about marriage, Big Magic about Creativity and the novels the Signature of All Things and City of Girls.

[B]

Her latest book has generated tremendous buzz profiles of Liz in all major publications and the book was chosen for Oprah's Book Club. Here's a description of all the Way to the river in 2000, a friend sent Liz to see a new hairdresser named Raya Elias. And an intense and unlikely curiosity sparked between these two apparent opposites. Rhea, an East Village badass who lived boldly on her own terms but feared she was a failed artist. Liz, a married people pleaser with a surprisingly unfettered sense of creativity. Over the years they became friends, then best friends, then inseparable. When tragedy entered their lives, the truth was finally laid bare. The two were in love unacknowledged. They were also a pair of addicts on a collision course toward catastrophe. What if the love of your life and the person you trusted most in the world became a danger to your sanity and well being? What if the dear friend who taught you so much about your self destructive tendencies became the unstable partner with whom you disastrously reenacted every one of them? And what if your most devastating heartbreak opened a pathway to your greatest awakening? All the Way to the river is for everyone who has ever been captive to love or to any other passion, substance or craving and who yearns at long last for peace and freedom.

[A]

Hello Liz.

[B]

Hi Liz.

[C]

Hi Gretchen. Hi Elizabeth. I am so happy to be here with you both. Thank you.

[A]

Well, we are so excited to be talking to you. We love the book and there's so many things to talk about. We're really excited to get into it with you.

[C]

Let's go, let's begin. Okay. And thank you.

[A]

Well, let's start with the title. Elizabeth and I both are fascinated by titles and the choice of titles and the origin of this Title is so thought provoking and moving.

[C]

Yeah, thank you for that. So the book is called all the Way to the River. And when Rhea first found out that she had been diagnosed with terminal pancreatic and liver cancer, and at that point they'd given her six months to live, we very quickly started referring to her death as the river. And this was. Was based on a kind of long, sort of inside joke friendship story that we had developed over the years about how Rhea gauged the closeness of her various friendships. So it's sort of based on the geography of New York, but that's how we came to think of the river as like the final, most final, final, final distance that you can go with anybody.

[A]

Well, there's a beautiful passage where you talk about that. So you don't have a book with you on your travels. So I'm gonna read it. I know I'm gonna read it for you. I'm gon to do it.

[C]

Just. I'm happy to hear you read it, Gretchen. I'd rather hear you read it than hear me read it. So let's do it.

[A]

Okay. Because Raya said to you that she. I want you to walk with me all the way to the river. And you promised you would. And then here's what you write. It's a perilous journey, is what I'm saying, to be somebody's all the way to the river relationship. There is romance in it, but also danger. Intimacy at that level is rough. You will see things in yourself and in the other person that will frighten and harm you. And you will experience things that will change you. I would have not missed my journey with Raya for anything in the world. But I'm not entirely sure I would recommend it. And I definitely never want to do anything like that again. Because while much of that walk was magical, a lot of it was exceedingly unbeautiful and painful to endure. And I'm pretty sure it shaved a few years off my life. Maybe this is why you can't know many people in life as well as I knew Rhea. Maybe I sometimes contemplate we're not even supposed to go all the way to the river with anyone. Maybe there comes a point where we each have to find our own way to the river alone. And here's another thing I only recently found out. By the way, what we New Yorkers call the east river is not even a river. It's a tidal estuary, which means it flows in both directions and its chemistry constantly varies, both salty and fresh. It's generative but changeable. Polluted water and bright new tides are constantly flowing back and forth across invisible boundaries. Navigation can become tricky. Extreme brackishness can make underwater visibility low. Currents are unpredictable. Swimmers and boaters must be careful not to be swept out to sea. Honestly, you can't even tell whether this body of water ends at the beginning or begins at the end. But, yes, back to our story. I promised my beloved friend Rhea Elias that I would walk with her all the way to the river. And God help us, that is exactly what I did. It's so moving. So explain what you and Rayya were talking about, walking from 5th to the river.

[C]

Yeah. So this is a kind of an inside New York geography joke. But the way that Rhea used to define her friendships and the varying levels of intimacy that she had with different people was using the map of downtown New York City as her. As her sort of operative metaphor. So she would say, like, so right in the center, you've got what she called her Fifth Avenue friends. And those are the people that you're completely superficial with. You never let them see. You know, you may know them for years, and you never let them know you, and you never really know them. Everybody's just operating on this very superficial level of their Personas. And then as you go further east, she's like, then you get to your 4th and 3rd Avenue friends who you allow a little bit more intimacy with. And then you get to your Second and First Avenue friends who are like the people you went to college with and people that you work with and neighbors and people you might have gone to their wedding and you might have started a business with them, like these. These deeper intimacies. And then she would say, but it's not till you get to your Alphabet City friends, you know, your Avenue A, B, C and D friends, that you start to experience the true intimacy of people who know each other really well. These are the people you called when you were going through your divorce, who helped you when you were bankrupt, who brought you to rehab, who held you when your mom died. Like, who you called in the middle of the night when you're having a panic attack. Like, this deep, deep level of knowing. And she's like, but that's not it. The map's not done. There's still one more level. If you can find that one person in life who will walk with you all the way to the river, like, all the way to the east river, the person who there are no more secrets from, that's the greatest gift in the entire world. And for years, she had called me her all the way to the river friend. And I wore that badge with a great deal of honor. So when we found out that she was dying, it kind of makes a natural sense that we began to call that sort of the ultimate river. And that promise that I made to her, that I would walk with her all the way to the river, was done in great innocence, Neither of us knowing what that last part of the journey was going to entail, and both of us thinking that we knew ourselves and each other really well and finding out that on that last leg of the journey, there were some elements of darkness in both of us that neither one of us could have known about until. So we took that last trek.

[A]

And when you were thinking of this book, was it clear to you all along that that was the title of the book?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, she and I even talked about it because she always knew and wanted me. She knew I was gonna write about her, and she wanted me to. In fact, she made me promise that I would. And that was one of the titles that we were banding around. And when we came up with it, even when we were talking about that, we had not yet experienced the full journey to the river yet. So it was a little bit more true love. And, you know, the people who know you and love you the best. And then it got added meanings as we went along.

[A]

Well, you write at the end how you were reading her journals, and she wanted you to read her journals because she wanted you to write about her.

[C]

So, yeah, Rhea really deeply, for her whole life, wanted to be known and had a gift for transparency that was unrivaled. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was more fearless in terms of walking right into the white hot, radioactive center of the truth, Even if it was a truth about her, even if it was a truth that didn't reflect well on her. She wrote her own memoir about her long, long stretch of heroin and cocaine addiction and her years of struggling to get sober called Harley Loco. She made a short film that was shown at the Berlin Film Festival about being a junkie. All of her music was about addiction. One of the things that I loved about Rhea was that she led with the shadow parts that most people spend their lives trying to h. And I think that's why she always felt like such a safe place for me and why she felt like such a safe place for so many people, because she was so unafraid of her own shadows that she was certainly unafraid of yours or mine. And at her funeral, one of our beloved friends, the writer Jonathan Miles, was eulogizing her and he said, you know, Rhea didn't want your fake self. She wouldn't tolerate your fake self. She would peer closer at your face and be like, dude, what's actually going on? You know, like, I can feel that what you're fronting here is not reality or not true. What are you hiding? And so when we knew that she was dying and when she knew that I was writing this book, she gave me her journals and said, you know, use everything. So it's all in there.

[A]

But Liz, the funny thing is, as a New Yorker, I had to think, but there's the whole west side. Maybe that's where you are. That's where you are now, Liz. You're walking to the other river, you know.

[C]

Well, you know, the Hudson river is a lot tonier, you know, than where we were hanging out and certainly much tonier than where she was hanging out back when she was using on the streets.

[B]

Yes. I was thinking about Tompkins Square park, what you talk about her being there. And that's right in that ABC neighborhood. Coming up, we're going to ask Liz more questions. And we have questions from listeners. But first, this break.

[A]

Foreign it's so exciting that the holidays are coming close. I do love the holiday season, but there is so much going on. Elizabeth I am now a Thanksgiving host, a huge milestone in my life. And so I've been thinking about, well, what do we need for Thanksgiving? Because it seems like it's far away, but it will be here before we know it. And I do not want to be rushing around at the last minute. And that's why I love Wayfair. It's the one stop shop. And that's where I can get everything that I need for the guest room for the Thanksgiving table. I'm just picking up all kinds of bits and bobs so that I really have everything pulled together in time for the holidays so I don't have to rush around.

[B]

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[A]

Yes.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[C]

And.

[A]

And was it hard to get to that level? Did you do sort of repeated passes as you wrote, or were you pulling back? Because at the same time, there is clearly also a lot of restraint. There are times when you signal that it's something that you're not gonna go into. So how did you think about what to include, what to withhold and how to get to those different levels and layers?

[C]

Yeah. So where I'm restrained is when I'm talking about other people that are not me and Raya. So, you know, my ex husband, other friends, people who I don't want to pull into the story out of respect, my family, things about her family. Like, there's respectful, I hope, boundaries up around all of that. The only people who I feel like I was allowed to expose were myself and Raya, whose permission I had to fully expose ourselves was me and her. I honestly didn't want to write this book at all. And the reason that it took seven years to write it was because I didn't want to write it. And after going through the hell that we went through in the immediate aftermath of her death, all I really wanted was to get as far away from it as I could. And I ended up writing two whole other books. And I tried to write this as a novel. I tried to write it as just a book of poetry and prayers. I tried not to write it at all, but it just wouldn't go away. And I think anybody who engages in any kind of creativity knows that there are some things that are like that where, like, the creative muse is just not gonna let you off the hook from this thing. It's not gonna go away.

[A]

I call that a blocking project. It's something that's just blocking your way, and you have to go through it. You can.

[C]

You gotta go through it, you know? And so when I finally did make the decision to do it, my hesitancy was not about, Honestly, it was not about exposing Raya, and it was not even about exposing myself, because it was clear to me once the decision was made to, as Ray had told me, write the living out of it, you know, go full punk rock with it. There was no way to tell that story without telling the entire story. And there's no reason to tell that story without telling the entire story. It doesn't even make sense, you know, and that's why it didn't really make sense when I sort of novelized it and why it didn't make sense when I kind of just wrote poems about how addiction and grief feel without talking about what actually occurred. And so once I was like, there's no way out. But through, it was very clear to me. Also, I felt like it was unethical for me to write about Raya's addiction and not write about mine when I'm also in multiple 12 step recovery programs. And that means me showing my shadow side just as much as she was comfortable showing hers. My hesitancy was I didn't want to go back to hell, you know, like, I didn't want to revisit that, especially that awful middle section of the book and that the terrible where we both went down to the most degraded versions of ourselves. Like, I had no interest in revisiting that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And even. Even as I was writing it, it was so excruciating. But it wasn't about, I don't want to be seen in my flaws. I'm pretty comfortable. I think, actually, the more I reveal my flaws in general, the, the healthier and more sober and kind of happier I become. And also the more I hear other people sort of echo, like, oh, yes, I'm also like that. But it was more like, I don't want to remember in the GR that I'm going to have to. To tell this story, but I really feel like I wasn't given a choice. And I don't know whether that was Rhea from the beyond pressuring me or the universe pressuring me or the truth demanding to be revealed. I don't know. But, you know, there we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You had a very clear sense.

[B]

Yeah. And Liz, you mentioned your addictions and what you went through during the book. Now, I have been hearing about codependency, that term for decades, and I feel like I really never understood what it was or why it was bad until you wrote about it in this book. And finally it all clicked and it made me see relationships around me differently. It really made a lot of sense. And I'm just wondering, do you find it hard to untangle these relationships and sort of write clearly in such a way that you're explaining something that I feel like so many other people have tried to explain, but not nearly as effectively?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, well, thanks for that. I mean, I wasn't just sitting on my hands during those seven years that I wasn't writing this book. I was also actively working 12 step recovery for Sex and Love Addiction for Codependency in Al Anon, which is a relationship based program in 12 step that was originally founded as a supportive program for people who are in love with active addicts and alcoholics, which is often where codependency shows up, where somebody is the addict and somebody else is the enabler, oftentimes the healthier partner, actually hiding, you know, behaviors that are just as unhealthy as the blackout trunk. And so I was in those programs uncovering these things in myself and working to heal and reveal these things in myself. And largely one of the words that I felt like was a motive for me as I was writing the book was forensic. I was doing a forensic investigation into my own pathologies, but I was also trying to do a forensic investigation into what exactly happened. And I think this is something that many people can relate to, unfortunately, in relationships that they may have had. Where how did this thing that started so radiantly go to such an incredibly dark place? And if I had written the book directly in the aftermath of Rhea's death, I'm afraid that the book would have been about what a nice person I am and what a terrible thing happened to me. And I'm never really interested in reading that book because life is never that completely simple. And the question that I had been living in all those years was what was my role in the insanity of my own life? Which is a really good and self accountable question, I think, for anybody who finds themselves in situations where their life feels unmanageable, to ask, like, what is the part that I am playing in this? How am I contributing to this insanity? Who am I blaming for the insanity of the life that I am living? And that all of those are questions that start to unpack what codependency is. And then I got really fascinated by it. And, and I also, you know, over the years in the rooms, picked up some really great funny definitions that I heard people say. One of my favorite being codependency is watching in horror as somebody else's life flashes before your face.

[A]

I remember I underlined that line that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, you know, you're so obsessed with the way that they're living that you're not focusing on your own life at all or another one. Is the motto of the codependent is, you break it, we fix it. And then my uncle, who's in 12 step recovery, gave me a really great one. A definition of a codependent is, well, the old joke is how do you kill a codependent? You lock them in a round, windowless, empty room and tell them that there's somebody sitting in the corner suffering, who needs their help. And then you watch as they run themselves to death trying to find the person who needs them. It's so. It's such an elegant and dark and funny and accurate description of that particular behavioral pathology. So I'm glad, Elizabeth, that you found. You know, there's a funny thing. When I first came into the room as my first sponsor, I was talking to her, and I was starting to sort of get wisdom and understanding about what had happened with me and Raya. And I said, it's almost like we both created this nightmarescape that we were in, you know, that it's almost like I had as much to do with it as she did because she reverted back to being a cocaine and opioids addict at the end. And it was a nightmare. And I was like. It's almost like when I was looking at my own part in that, it's like. It's almost like I did that, too. It's almost like we did that together. And she's like, liz, the word codependent very conveniently has the prefix co right at the beginning of it as a clue. It's something that you do with someone, you know, like you. Yes. You guys 100% did that together.

[A]

Fascinating. So, switching gears, this is a question from Meredith. She said, I listened to the audiobook, and it was wonderful. She did a phenomenal job of reading it. My question is, what was the recording process like? How long did it take? Was it difficult to revisit some of the chapters when reading them out loud? And what did that feel like? It sounded like Elizabeth Gilbert almost started crying once or twice. Oh, God.

[C]

I did start crying multiple times. And we had to do lots of different takes. And part of the reason. And thank you for that. So Rhea was a musician and for many years, her producer, and really, I would say, in many ways, her best friend for many years was this music producer named Barb Morrison. And Barb was one of the people, when Rhea started using again, who had to back out of Raya's life. One of the people who would not co sign Raya's bull. One of the people who was like, don't pretend this is cool when it's completely not cool. You have absolutely relapsed into addiction. And their friendship really suffered as a result. But years later, I became friends with Barb. And when it came time to read the book, I asked Barb if I could read it at their studio. And it was a place where Rhea had recorded music. And actually, Barb's recording studio was their Living room. So I was sitting watching Barb's face. Well, I was reading about this person who was, for both of us, our very best and closest friend. And then at one point, I remember, we read this section, and Barb stood up and said, I feel like I need to go throw up this. Oh, like, this is so intense. Wow. So it was the most intimate. And what I said to my publisher was, I can't go sit in a sterile recording studio and read this book while some tech bro is at the soundboard. Like, I need to be in a place that's safe, and I need to. It's gotta be here. It's gotta be in this room that Raya knew with this person who Raya knew. So I think the intimacy and the emotionality that you hear in the reading of the book is a direct result of that decision.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[C]

It was intense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Liz. Another listener, who did not use their name, asked, how did you manage to be so productive and successful in your writing career with this love and sex addiction? Often people with addictions, and I would think this one would be no exception, are unable to focus on themselves, their own lives and their own projects, because everything is. Is second to the addictive substance.

[C]

These are such good questions.

[A]

Our listeners really love the book. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Oh, my Lord.

[A]

We have a very bookish audience. Yeah.

[C]

You know, the sort of darker, shadowy version of that would be that work is a place I run to, to hide in. And that's one way to say it, that I think maybe if I were sitting in a therapist's office of a certain kind of therapist, they might say that. And certainly I could be accused of workaholism. And even in the aftermath of Rez death, the very first thing I did was sit down and write a novel like Within. You know, I started writing it within a few weeks of her dying almost in a fugue state. That's a darker way to see it. I think maybe a more spiritual way to see it. A less sort of psychopathological way to see it is that it's been a gift my entire life to have something that I am in relationship with where that relationship is not unwell. Like, my relationship with my creativity is probably the healthiest relationship I have in my life, apart from, I would say, my relationship with my. The God of my own understanding. And I think those two things are very linked. And so even when I was a kid, creativity was where I was safe. You know, it was where I was safe. It was where I could disappear and not even Necessarily in a pathological way. It was where I could create. It was where I could have control. One of the really beautiful things for me about being a novelist is when I'm writing fiction, I have the thing that I'm always trying to do in all my human relationships, which is be in charge of people's behavior.

[A]

Yes. Total control. Yeah.

[C]

I can create these beautiful worlds where everybody does what I think they should do, you know, and that is obviously not at all what it's like out here in the real world. So I get a lot of joy from my creativity. I get a lot of really straightforward joy. And I think anybody who's read Big Magic knows that about the way that I engage with it. So I would. I would say it was a place of refuge and always has been. And it's a place, too, of competency. And it's where I don't feel crazy, and it's where I don't feel like I'm failing. And I think, yeah, I like to say this, especially as women and as women in our 50s. I think it's really important for women to claim and own and name how competent they are at certain things. So I've been writing professionally for 30 years, and I'm good at it. I enjoy it, and I do well at it. And it's like, those are things we're sort of taught, we're not allowed to say. But it's really. I think it's beautiful when women say, this is the thing I do that I'm excellent at. And you should. You should hire me for it because I'm good at it. And on the other hand, there's lots of things where I would say, don't come to me for guidance in these realms, because you should probably talk to somebody who's good at those things. And I'm not good at that. Like staying married, for instance. Not good at that. But like. But. But good at writing books. And there's a pleasure. There's a pleasure in doing something that you're good at and knowing while you're doing it that you're good at it. There's a joy in it.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Coming up, we've got more questions for Liz, but first, this break. Gretch, you know how much I love Audible. Audiobooks are such a huge part of my life. I'm always telling people to start listening to audiobooks. What I love is that Audible has something for everyone. My most recent book I've teed up to listen to is Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. I am a huge romance lover. Have been since I was 12 years old and I've heard so much about this book. I cannot wait to start listening.

[A]

Yeah, that's the great thing about Audible. They have whatever you're in the mood for. You can hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and yes, Rebecca Yarros and Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander, plus all the really steamy stuff. Whatever you're looking for, you can find the audiobook you will love. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com Happier Peloton.

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Okay, we're back. And Liz, you know you talk a lot about 12 step programs in the book and Aaron asks, I just finished reading the book and now can't help but examine my dating life through the lens of love and sex addiction. I'm wondering if Elizabeth has heard of any increase in people showing up at 12 step programs based on the realities and awareness she brought to addiction in her book and specifically love and sex addiction.

[C]

There you go, I have heard. I've been hearing of that anecdotally from other people. And I've also been in meetings where people have approached me and said. Which is funny because it's a breach of anonymity, But I blew up my own anonymity at this point. So hard. I don't think, like, once you talked about it on TV with Oprah, I don't think you really can be, like, clutching your pearls and being like, please don't breach my amenity in this meeting. But, you know, people will come up and say, you know, I'm. I'm at this. I'm. I'm at this meeting because of your book.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And that's the part, too, that I know Raya would love, because when Raya wrote her own memoir about addiction, Harley Loco, one of the proudest times I've ever seen, like, when I saw her, like, in her fullest, sort of the right kind of pride in herself, not the arrogant kind of pride, but, like, real, true kind of spiritual pride in herself, was Rikers Island. The jail in New York at that time, still open, opened up a library within their branch, a little tiny jail cell that was turned into a lending library, that it was actually a branch of the New York Public Library. And Rhea had spent multiple times at Rikers island in her life, and her book mentions it. And so they invited her to come be part of the ribbon cutting ceremony. And it was obviously the first time she'd been at Rikers since she was a prisoner. And it was a pretty formal event in a way. This, like, the director of the New York Public Library was there, and there were some local congress people there, and Rhea had written a speech, and she was nervous about giving her speech. But then they marched in, like, 10 women who were in beige jumpsuits who were prisoners at Rikers and sat them down. And we found out they were the biggest readers there. And when Rhea saw them, she just. Just started crying. And they had them sitting at the back. It was so kind of awful. You know, it was like, here are the sort of formal people, and then here, we'll just let these 10 prisoners come and sit at the back. And when Rhea saw them, she. She is one of my favorite memories ever. She ripped. She ripped her speech up and threw it over her shoulder. And she pointed to them, and she's like, hey, you guys, I wrote this speech for them. And she pointed to the guys in the suits. She's like, but that. I'm just gonna talk to you. And. And because I was exactly where you are. And she just gave this, like, moving, kind of spontaneous qualification, we would call it in the rooms of 12 step, about her life of addiction and where it brought her, and that's all she wanted. And why she wrote that book and it's why she made that film and it's why she made that music, was that she wanted to have her story help people. That's what she wanted for her. And I think that if she knew that this book is helping people. And it's not just people. I'm not just hearing about people saying, they're checking out the rooms of Codependency Anonymous or Sex and Love X Anonymous or Al Anon. People are saying. Sending direct messages saying, like, I just went to my first AA meeting in 15 years because I finished reading your book, and I forgot. I forgot I'm an alcoholic. You know, Like, I forgot I'm an alcoholic, and my life has been getting unmanageable, and I really need recovery, and I forgot, you know, and so that's been really touching.

[A]

So here's another question from a listener. Rachel asked, what did Raya's family think of the memoir?

[C]

Well, it depended on which family member you talk to, because, like your family and like my family, they're not a unilateral.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[C]

They're not. You know, they're not a unit. They're. They're. They're composed of individuals who had varying degrees of reaction to it. And I want to be private and respectful to them about some of those conversations. But I can only say that I gave the manuscript a year before it was published to everybody in her family to make sure that they had plenty of time to think about it. And I also asked people to let me know if they felt like there was anything, and not just her family, her close friends who were involved at the time of her death. And the question that I had for everybody was, you know, please let me know if you feel like there's anything in here that was either unfair or untrue. So we had some. I had some intense conversations and changed some things in the book as a result. Took some things out where there were disagreements that I didn't feel, you know, like, I was like, this isn't worth somebody being upset over. It's not. It's how I remember it, but it doesn't need to be there if it's gonna cause an upset. And then left a couple things in where I felt like this was my actual lived experience. And I'm gonna stand by this. But there were conversations that were had at the time, and some of them loved it, and some of them didn't love it. But I didn't know how I could be more in integrity than how I did that.

[B]

Well, of course, Liz, you've said in interviews that you don't read reviews. I'm sure some of it seeps in. And you are at the center of so much attention and success for this book. As we said, you know, it was an Oprah Book Club pick. Doesn't get bigger than that. And we're just wondering, does it feel like a threat to your recovery ever, all of that attention and success? Because, like, you said that, you know, the success of Eat, Pray Love sort of spun you a bit. Or is it a good strengthener to have all that attention because now you feel held accountable?

[C]

Oh, God, these questions are so good like that. I like that turn at the end. It's like, that's really interesting. Well, nothing is ever going to be what Eat, Pray Love was. You know, like, that was such a phenomenon. And I think the definition of a phenomenon is that it can't be replicated. It won't be replicated. And it can't even really even be understood like, what that book went and did in the world. And it did that before social media, you know, like, I wasn't even on the Internet barely when that book was out there selling those millions of copies, like, and riding the wave of that when I was also a lot younger was pretty destabilizing. The thing that I think was so anchoring for me at that time was that my marriage was very stabilizing and my husband was very stabilizing. And that's where I found ground was in, like, I can come home and I know who this person is, and he knows who I am. And this is a safe. Like, I'm safe here in my house. I'm cared for for reasons that have nothing to do with what this book is doing. Where I'm finding grounding now and again, it's not gonna be at that level. Like, and the world's a lot more distracted now.

[B]

Right?

[C]

You know what I mean? Like, there a minute a couple weeks ago where everybody was, like, talking about this book, but that minute, I think, has already passed, you know, and it will. The book will continue to find who it's meant to find, but I don't think it will be the same sort of blistering level of attention that Eat PrayLove brought. But the grounding that I have is what I didn't have back then, which is my own ground of being that isn't about somebody else being my stabilizing force. You know, my ex husband was my stabilizing force for many years. Raya was my stabilizing force. Part of my love addiction has been a constant search for who will keep me grounded, who will make me feel safe, who will, who will make my nervous system be calm. Like what person will make me be okay? And that isn't something I'm doing anymore. And through these years of recovery and these practices that I've found through my 12 step community, through my sobriety and always my physical sobriety and my emotional sobriety which is the primary priority of my life. Like I'm on the road right now, but I set my alarm for 5:30 this morning so I could be on my 7:30 meeting that I go to every day. Like these are these anchoring rituals and my deeper relationship with the presence that I call God is I think as long as that remains foremost. And I mean Ray was the one who taught me. It's a line they say in 12 step, but they're like if, if you put anything in front of your sobriety, you will lose. Lose both. You'll lose the thing you put in front of your sobriety and you'll lose your sobriety. So nothing goes in front of my sobriety. And so it's been an, you know, it was an intense couple weeks when the book came out and I knew it would be but it passes and people move their attention to other things and as long as I keep my focus on what keeps me well, should be okay.

[A]

Good. Well, the last question, Liz, we always like to ask us if you have a try this at home suggestion, something small and concrete that people can do as part of their ordinary day, ways to make themselves happier, healthier, more productive or more creative. Do you have a suggestion you'd like to offer?

[C]

I would love to offer and also extend an invitation to community in this thing. So for many, many years I've had this practice of I write myself a daily letter from what I call the spirit of unconditional love, which conveniently spells soul. And I've done it. It got me through the darkest times of my life. And the letter always begins with the same prom. I say, dear love, what would you have me know today? And then I respond and I write myself a letter as though unconditional love is speaking to me. And the prompt question is sort of this act of imagination, like if there was a presence in the room in your Heart in spirit that loved you unconditionally right this moment? What would it want you to know today? What would it want you to know more than anything in the entire world? What is it trying to communicate to you? And then you write, write that letter. And so this has become a daily mental health practice for me. And a couple years ago I started wondering whether it was teachable. And so I opened up a substack account called Letters from Love. And now there are 200,000 of us over there. And every week I invite somebody to a guest to write themselves a letter from the spirit of unconditional love. And then I share one that I've written and then people in the comments share ones that they've written to themselves. And it's the safest. If you need a non toxic place on the Internet to go. It is the safest and most loving community on the Internet.

[A]

I subscribe to it.

[B]

Yes, me too.

[C]

So that practice, of course you don't have to come to the Letters from Love Community to do it, but to give it a try to turn your heart toward itself, I find to be deeply moving and very beautiful. I'll just share that when the Dalai Lama first came to the United States, the thing he was most shocked by was how the rampant consumerism and the rampant self hatred, both of which kind of are the same thing. And in fact, the self hatred, I think leads to the rampant consumerism and the rampant consumerism feeds the self hatred. And so this practice of learning how to speak and write to yourself lovingly can be a way to reverse those cultural and familial messages that we may have all inherited or that are in the ground, the groundwater here that say, you know, that question your own value and your own worth. So I invite you to try.

[A]

Wonderful. Well, that's a beautiful practice. A great suggestion for all our listeners. So thank you. Liz, it's so wonderful to talk to you.

[B]

So great.

[C]

Thank you for such a brilliant interview. I'm so. I was. I love those questions and thank you to your community for being part of this.

[A]

Now, we're still very interested to hear your impressions and reflections on this powerful memoir. Let us know on Instagram threads, TikTok, Facebook. Drop us an [e-mail] or as always, you can go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com 557 for everything related to this episode. Remember, whenever it is and wherever you are, there's always a book waiting for you. And that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember to Try this at home. Read Liz Gilbert's memoir All the Way to the river. And if you've already read it, read another one of her terrific books.

[B]

Thanks to our wonderful guest, Liz Gilbert. Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the time. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com and here's your rhyming reminder.

[A]

If you like the show, tell others you know.

[B]

Until next week, I'm Elizabeth Craft.

[A]

And I'm Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward, Elizabeth. It made me want to rewatch the movie Eat, Pray, Love. I saw it when it came out all those years ago, but I haven't seen it since. It made me want to go back and watch it.

[B]

Yes, and it made me go back and reread the book. So now I'm even more interested in going and watching the movie again.

[A]

From the Onward Project.

[C]

Hi Gretchen, Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here we host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Roberts. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

[A]

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you get podcasts, you can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Keke Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success. Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.