Ep. 580: Very Special Episode! Ask Us Anything

Summary

Happier with Gretchen Rubin: Episode 580 – "Very Special Episode! Ask Us Anything"

Date: April 1, 2026
Hosts: Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft
Episode Theme:
A lively Ask Us Anything edition, where sisters Gretchen and Elizabeth respond to a diverse selection of listener-submitted questions about happiness, book clubs, habits, creative work, family life, and personal philosophies. The episode is intimate, practical, and full of positive, actionable ideas, peppered with the sisters’ trademark warmth and humor.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcasting as Sisters & Competitiveness

[00:08–01:54]

• Listener Question: Do Gretchen and Elizabeth ever feel competitive about each other’s podcasts?
• Gretchen: “I don’t feel competitive at all.”
  She notes each podcast fills a unique space (including Happier, Happier in Hollywood, and Since You Asked).
• Elizabeth: “We’re each other’s biggest cheerleaders. Thank goodness. It would be hard if we were competitive.”
• They enjoy each other’s shows and support each other actively, often texting about episodes as soon as they air.
• Memorable quote (Gretchen, 01:41): “I always listen to Happier in Hollywood, like, the day that it drops…we’re lucky. We don’t feel competitive.”

Key Takeaway:

The Rubin sisters’ collaboration is defined by mutual support, not rivalry.

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2. Book Club Advice & Experiences

[01:55–08:40]

• Listener Questions: How to start a book club? How have children’s literature book groups influenced Gretchen?
• Gretchen:
  • Book clubs are significant happiness boosters: they foster social networks and a sense of belonging, and support a habit of reading.
  • Pro-tip: “If you start a book club, expect to act as the final authority…people will look to you for scheduling and problem solving.” (03:01)
  • Stress on clarity—establish group expectations ahead of time (e.g., must you read the book before attending? How often will you meet?).
  • Specialized (genre-based) book clubs can build new, unexpected friendships.
  • Personal satisfaction from adult children’s literature clubs: “I get the tremendous pleasure of this literature…It helps me read more deeply into it and also stay up to date.”
• Elizabeth:
  • Suggests hyper-local neighborhood clubs for easier, more sustainable gatherings.
  • Notes logistical challenges in big cities: “It’s just really hard to bring a group of people together when they’re that disparate.” (03:54)
• Insightful observation: The “30-minute rule” in friendships—proximity aids connection.

Key Takeaway:

Book clubs boost happiness; success depends on clear expectations, logistical practicality, and, sometimes, a shared genre passion.

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3. Abstainers, Moderators & Planned Exceptions

[08:40–12:45]

• Listener Question: Abstainers worry about never having sweets again—how to handle?
• Gretchen:
  • Explains difference between "abstainers" (all or nothing) and "moderators" (sometimes/a little).
  • Solution: Planned exceptions. “You plan your exception in advance, and this is something that is very limited and specific.” (09:55)
  • Planned exceptions help maintain integrity and enjoyment.
    • ex: “On my anniversary…at this restaurant…I’m going to have this delicious tiramisu, and it’s going to be amazing.” (09:55)
  • Warns: Unplanned or vague exceptions (e.g., “Nothing counts between Thanksgiving and January 2nd,” or “I do what I want on weekends”) undermine progress.
  • Importance of knowing oneself: “I'm much happier being an abstainer.” (11:22)
• Elizabeth:
  • Shares examples, like the friend who only eats Cinnabon at the Newark airport: “He had a Cinnabon in the Newark airport and nowhere else.” (12:32)

Key Takeaway:

Understand your tendency (abstainer vs. moderator) and use planned exceptions to maintain habits without guilt or backlash.

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4. Birth Order & The Four Tendencies

[15:36–16:49]

• Listener Question: Are the “Four Tendencies” linked to birth order?
• Gretchen:
  • “When researchers look into birth order…it doesn’t really seem to be a thing.” (15:53)
  • No systematic correlation between the Four Tendencies (Upholder, Obliger, Questioner, Rebel) and birth order.
• Elizabeth:
  • Notes that “the largest number of people are obligers,” so any pattern would be hard to establish based on birth order alone.

Key Takeaway:

Personality tendencies don’t have a clear relationship with birth order; focus on individual differences.

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5. Face Blindness & TV Writing

[16:51–18:55]

• Listener Question: How does Elizabeth’s face blindness affect her work as showrunner/writer?
• Elizabeth:
  • TV/film production prioritizes making characters visually and audibly distinct (hair, names, style) to avoid viewer confusion—particularly vital in today’s multi-tasking (device-using) audience.
  • “You really want to make sure that you’re clear with who’s who.” (18:25)
• Gretchen:
  • Queries about strategies like accents or other differences; Elizabeth emphasizes visual (particularly hair) differences.

Key Takeaway:

Visual clarity in characters helps all viewers—including those with face blindness—enjoy and follow stories easily.

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6. Live Shows, Writers’ Retreats, and Shoe Choices

[18:55–28:38]

• Live Shows ([19:00]):
  • Interest in future live events; no current plans, but enthusiasm for more.
• Writers’ Retreats ([19:14]):
  • Elizabeth and Sarah (Happier in Hollywood) plan another retreat and welcome input from listeners.
• Bad Day Strategies ([19:47–21:57]):
  • Elizabeth:
    • “If I exercise, I will feel better…It could have a 180 impact on me.” (20:05)
    • Also finds reading and talking things out with close friends helpful.
  • Gretchen:
    • Sleep is critical: “If things are going really bad for me…I might go to bed at say 8:30.” (20:28)
    • Talks things over with Elizabeth for perspective and comfort.
    • Family members like showers for mood reset, though not Gretchen or Elizabeth.

Key Takeaway:

On tough days, physical self-care, reading, connecting with loved ones, and a reset (like sleep) can turn things around.

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7. The Metropolitan Museum of Art: Must-Sees

[22:22–25:53]

• Listener Questions: Gretchen’s favorite Met exhibits.
• Gretchen:
  • Scholar’s Garden: “You come up a flight of stairs, and then you’re in a garden with water and fish and trees…” (22:43)
  • Temple of Dendur: An Egyptian temple, surrounded by water and natural light; iconic setting.
  • Visible Storage: “It’s like going to the attic of the Met and seeing these things…” (23:53)
    • Notes that the Met’s displays, including visible storage, are rotated frequently.
  • Washington Crossing the Delaware: Huge, dramatic painting; part of “Revolution” exhibition for the U.S. semi-quincentennial.

Key Takeaway:

Gretchen’s “insider” recommendations at the Met: unique spaces, ever-changing visible storage, and iconic art.

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8. Agreeing to Disagree: Sugar, Sci-Fi, Reality TV

[25:56–27:10]

• Sugar habits:
  • Elizabeth (Type 1 diabetic) chooses moderation and necessity, Gretchen abstains—a peaceful disagreement.
• Entertainment:
  • Gretchen loves sci-fi/fantasy, Elizabeth doesn’t; reversed for reality TV.
• Both accept differences without trying to change the other.

Key Takeaway:

Healthy relationships thrive when people respect and accept each other’s preferences without trying to “fix” them.

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9. Family Love: Expressed, Not Always Spoken

[28:43–34:02]

• Listener Question: How do “non-demonstrative” families show love?
• Elizabeth:
  • The sisters express love vocally on the podcast even if not always in private.
• Gretchen:
  • Gift-giving at Christmas: personalized presents reflect attention to loved ones’ quirks and preferences.
  • “It really forces you to pay attention to someone’s very particular preferences and tastes, and I think that helps people feel seen…” (30:28)
• Frequent contact—sharing articles, cartoons, and conversation—shows attention and love.
• Family tradition: lingering, coffee-fueled conversations after breakfast express desire to simply be together.
• Visits: “Frequency is more important than duration.” (32:07)
• The sense of being accepted and wanted is central.
• Both agree: explicit “I love you’s” aren’t necessary for feeling secure in their family’s love.
  • “We never fussed about this…We knew Dad knew he was beloved, even though we never said it.” (34:01)

Key Takeaway:

Love can be deeply communicated through thoughtfulness, togetherness, and consistent attention—words aren't always required.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Book Clubs:
  “There is no guilt. Even if you have not read the book, you are welcome to attend the group…This is supposed to be fun.” — Gretchen (04:47)

• On Abstaining/Moderating:
  “It’s not that one way is right and one way is wrong. It’s just that different approaches suit different people in different areas…” — Gretchen (11:33)

• On TV Character Clarity:
  “A lot of it really is about hair. I think hair is a big way that people make associations.” — Elizabeth (18:39)

• On Handling Bad Days:
  “If I exercise, I will feel better…It could have a 180 impact on me.” — Elizabeth (20:05)
  “Usually I might go to bed at say 8:30… I always feel better in the morning.” — Gretchen (20:28)

• On Family Love:
  “Every year we would give dad the Far Side calendar because he loved the Far Side…You’re paying attention.” — Gretchen (31:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamps (MM:SS) | |--------------------------------------|-----------------------| | Podcast Competition | 00:08 – 01:54 | | Book Club Tips | 01:55 – 08:40 | | Abstaining/Moderating Habits | 08:40 – 12:45 | | Birth Order & Four Tendencies | 15:36 – 16:49 | | Writing & Face Blindness | 16:51 – 18:55 | | Live Shows & Writers’ Retreats | 18:55 – 19:42 | | Turning Bad Days Around | 19:47 – 21:57 | | Metropolitan Museum Favorites | 22:22 – 25:53 | | Agreeing to Disagree | 25:56 – 27:10 | | Shoe Search Dilemma | 27:22 – 28:29 | | Non-Demonstrative Family Love | 28:43 – 34:02 |

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Episode Tone and Language

The overall tone is warm, conversational, honest, and encouraging, with practical advice delivered in the sisters’ trademark blend of intelligence and fun. Their rapport is easy, good-natured, and never forced. Listener questions are treated with respect and specificity, and personal stories highlight how happiness strategies play out in real life.

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Summary prepared for quick reference and deep insight into Episode 580 of Happier with Gretchen Rubin.

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“Onward and upward!” – Gretchen Rubin ([34:41])

Transcript

[A]

Hello, and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about how to become happier. This week, it is a very special episode. It's episode 580, and we are doing an Ask Us Anything. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature, secrets of adulthood. I'm in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. And, Elizabeth, your voice still is not quite back to normal.

[B]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in la. And, yeah, Gretch, I mean, it's hanging in there, so I feel better, but the voice isn't quite there.

[A]

So apologies, but you are on the mend, so that's good. The Throat Coat tea is slowly doing its job.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, now let's jump into Ask Us Anything. We got so many great questions from listeners. And, Elizabeth, it's been a long time since we've done an Ask Us Anything. Like, years. I think we forgot about this format, even though we love it so much.

[B]

I know. And we got so many great questions.

[A]

So the first one comes from Thessaly. She asks, are you ever competitive with each other's podcasts? I love them all and know they all fit a unique need for the listeners. But I'm curious how you each experience podcasting as sisters and then as each having her own other co host. So, of course we do Happier Together. Elizabeth, you do Happier in Hollywood with Sarah Fane, and I do since youe Asked with Lori Gottlieb. Speaking for myself, I don't feel competitive at all.

[B]

Not whatsoever. I think we're each other's biggest cheerleaders.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Thank goodness. It would be hard if we were competitive.

[A]

Yeah. I always listen to Happier in Hollywood, like, the day that it drops. I'm often texting you, like when I'm walking Barnaby or Taffy first thing in the morning because something came up. So, yeah, we're lucky. Elizabeth, we don't feel competitive with each other.

[B]

No.

[A]

No, we don't.

[B]

And then, Gretch, Next we have two questions about book clubs. Robin says, any advice on starting a book club?

[A]

Mm. First of all, it's a fantastic idea. It's a huge happiness booster. I mean, I'm in so many book clubs. I love them all. It's. It's a way to see old friends, make new friends, get out of the scheduling of trying to schedule a bunch of people individually. It's creating a social network, which is. Gives you a greater feeling of belonging and cohesion than individual friendships. And plus, it's reading, which itself is a source of happiness. So there's a bazillion reasons why a book club makes you happier. And if you start a book club, you get extra gold stars because it's hard to start something. And if you are the one who starts it. Okay, here's my first tip. If you are the one who starts it, you should accept the idea that people will look to you as the final authority. If someone ends up at the last minute not being able to host you are the one that they will email and say there is a problem, or if it sort of starts fading away, you are the one who should say, like, let's do this startup email again. Just expect that you will be seen as the authority in a good way and also in kind of an annoying way. But it is part of starting something.

[B]

Yeah. And my tip, although I haven't done this myself, Gretchen, is to start a book club in your neighborhood.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now, of course, if you live in a small town, I guess this isn't as apropos, but like, if you're in LA or New York or somewhere where it can take a while to get to another neighborhood, my advice is start it in your neighborhood. Have all people in your neighborhood so that it's easy for everyone to get there. Because I had been part of a West coast kidlet group, Gretch, inspired by your group. Yeah. And we just all lived all over Los Angeles, and it's just really hard to bring a group of people together when they're that disparate.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there is some interesting research suggesting that there is kind of like a 30 minute mark, which is if you can get to somebody in 30 minutes, you're much more likely to be able to sustain a friendship with them. And I think this is what, like you said, that that might be true in New York City, Chicago, Louisiana. I think it might be less true in New York City because it's so easy to go and you don't have to drive. So you can just like, you know, you can just be sitting on the train reading. That's a lot less effortful than like fighting your way through traffic. And so I think funnily enough, New York City, even though it's so big, it's maybe easier to have disparate book clubs.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

But there is something about having people close to you. And so that is, I think, a consideration, especially if you want your book club to be like a really strong social network, which is great. I also think you want to be really clear about what are the expectations around it. And it's like, there's no right expectations or wrong expectations, but you want to be clear about them so that people know if they're sort of, like, doing what they're supposed to be. For instance, so I have my children's literature reading group, and we have a question related to that, so I'll get to that, too. But in the children's literature reading group, and I started these groups, so I am kind of the authority on it, the rule is no guilt. Even if you have not read the book, you are welcome to attend the group. Even if you haven't been in the group for two years, you are always welcome back. This is supposed to be fun. Come. We want you to be there whether or not you've read the book. There is no guilt. Now, other reading groups, though, really expect you to read the book. There is a high expectation that you've read the book. And if you haven't read the book, the idea is you're really letting the group down and you should not attend. And so I just think either way is fine. You just want to make it clear to people, like, is everybody going to be really annoyed with you if you come, if you haven't finished the book, or is that okay? I also think, like, how often does your group meet? Like, I'm in a regular, what you would call, like, a regular adult book club, and we meet once a month. Kidlit meets more like every six weeks to eight weeks. And again, that was just the expectation that we set when we started so that people knew how often is this group meeting? Because that helps them decide whether they want to join or not.

[B]

Yes. So, Robyn, good luck.

[A]

Oh, and another thing I would say is sometimes it can be fun. And this gets to the children's literature book club is it can be fun to have one where it's a kind of genre, like if everybody loves science fiction or memoir, or it can just be general romantic. Yeah, it can be general fiction, too. But sometimes it's fun to be specialized. And along those lines, Susan said, Gretchen, how do your children's literature book groups influence your writing, thoughts, world outlook, et cetera? What exactly do you personally get from these groups in the literature? Well, the thing about children's literature is this is a taste that some people have as adults that other people do not have. So just like, I don't really like mysteries. Every once in a while, I'll read another Cathedral Christie, but I basically don't read mysteries, and I don't really read thrillers. I just don't have a taste for that kind of thing. Every once in a while I'll read one because it's supposed to be really good, but basically I don't read it. Children's literature is the same way. It turns out there are some adults who just love it as adults. And we rarely talk about what children think of these books. We're just experiencing them as adults. So I get the tremendous pleasure of this literature. It helps me read more deeply into it and also stay up to date with it. Because it's very easy with children's literature to sort of read from your own period and not be reading, like, the hot new book. And I have a lot of friends in these groups that are people that wouldn't otherwise be people that I would see regularly or maybe know at all. And I've just made friends because we have this one particular taste in common that then is the foundation of a whole friendship. So I've made so many friends. And also, a lot of these people work in book publishing, and they say, you know, it's kind of the problem of the cobbler's children go unshod, that if you work in book publishing, you often don't have much time to read for pleasure because you're reading so much for work that they rarely have time to just read what they want. So the thing about a children's literature book is that often you can read it pretty quickly. If you're reading Charlotte's Web, it's a towering classic of world literature. It's a classic of children's literature, but you can read that much more quickly than you're gonna read Wolf Hall. Yeah, I would say it's equally elevated, but it's just a different thing. And so for a lot of people, it is a chance to read really outstanding work, or maybe contemporary work. You wanna know kind of what's going on in contemporary culture, and in a way that's more manageable. So it's a huge engine of happiness for me. Oh. So what a lot of people say is this is the only place in my life where I get to read what I feel like reading, where I get to read something for fun. And so that's something that a lot of people in the group get from it. Anyway, I love my children's literature reading groups.

[B]

Okay, Gretch, totally switching gears. Teresa said I'm an abstainer, but I certainly get panicky thinking I'll never get sweets again. Any advice to reconcile that conflict?

[A]

Well, Theresa, I'm glad you asked Because I know exactly how to reconcile that conflict. I have a whole article on it that I wrote, and I'll post a link to that in the show notes, which is how to basically be an abstainer and then break from abstaining without completely backsliding. So I'll post a link to that. But really, the solution is planned exception. So with a planned exception, it is exactly what it sounds like. You plan your exception in advance, and this is something that is very limited and specific. So you plan your exception. So, like, what might this look like? You might say, I abstain from sugar. But it is my anniversary, and we are going to go to this restaurant, and I know that they have the most amazing tiramisu. And so on my anniversary, when we go to this restaurant, I'm going to have dessert, and I'm going to have this delicious tiramisu, and it's going to be amazing. So how you know that a planned exception has worked well is you've planned it in advance. You follow through with whatever you said you would do, and you look back on it with pleasure. Because what doesn't feel good is you're like, okay, I'm giving up sugar. I'm not eating sugar. And I am happier when I don't feed my sweet tooth. And so that's why I'm abstaining from sugar. But here I am. It's my anniversary. I'm in my favorite restaurant. This is an Italian restaurant.

[B]

Oh, my goodness, look, they have this tiramisu.

[A]

I've heard that.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

Life is too short to say no. You can only live once. This doesn't count. I'll go back on it tomorrow. I've been so faithful. Altogether, I deserve a day off. And then you have the dessert, and then the next day you feel bad, perhaps because you haven't kept your word to yourself. It's not that what you did was wrong or bad. It's that you didn't keep your word to yourself. And that's what makes a person feel bad. And so by planning the exception, you keep it limited and you enjoy it because you say, well, this is exactly what I wanted to do. This is what I promised myself to do. I am keeping my word to myself. But this isn't something like, oh, well, it's the holiday season, so From Thanksgiving to January 2nd, nothing counts. That's not a planned exception. Or saying something like, well, on the weekends, I do whatever I want. That's not a planned exception. It's not enough of an Exception. That's too much part of the rule. And I also want to say about abstainers and moderators. Abstainers are people who do better when they do something all the time or never. And moderators do better when they have something sometimes or a little bit. And sometimes people who are moderators will say to abstainers, it's not healthy to abstain. It's not healthy to tell yourself no over and over. It's not healthy to be so rigid. And the fact is, I'm an abstainer, and I'm much happier being an abstainer.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I talk to many people who are like, oh, my gosh, it's just such a relief to know I could just give this up altogether. I don't have to manage it by indulging in moderation. So it's not that one way is right and one way is wrong. It's just that different approaches suit different people in different areas. Like, I'm a moderator when it comes to, like, wine, because I don't really care about wine. So it's not hard for me to be moderate. But I have such a wild sweet tooth, I can't indulge in sweets moderately. So it's much easier for me to abstain. So again, it's like, as to this challenge, do you want to try abstaining? Do you want to try moderating? If you are doing abstaining, then a planned exception is a way that you. Yeah, you can have the cake on your birthday, or. Or maybe you have a different kind of planned exception. Like somebody said to me, I'll eat any homemade dessert that anybody serves to me in their home. Okay. That is, I mean, unless your friends are inviting you out five times a week. That's pretty unusual, right?

[B]

Or your friend who ate Cinnabon at the airport.

[A]

Yeah, he had a Cinnabon in the Newark airport and nowhere else.

[B]

Okay, coming up, we've got a question about birth order. But first, this break.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

a question from Robin. She says, have you ever done any research concerning the four tendencies in birth order? I am an eldest daughter and an obliger and it seems to me that those would logically go together. Thoughts? Well, it's funny Gretch, because you're the oldest and you're an upholder, so who's to say?

[A]

It's interesting. There's so much interest in the world into birth order, but actually when researchers look into birth order, it doesn't really seem to be a thing. It can affect your relationship within your family, but it doesn't seem that it does consistently lead to outcomes in the world, which is very, very surprising to a lot of people. But also whenever people talk about the Four tendencies in birth order. I'm like. But couldn't it explain a lot of things? Like, you could say, I'm an eldest daughter and I'm an upholder. You could say, I'm an eldest daughter and I'm a rebel. I'm an eldest daughter and an obliger. I'm a questioner. A lot of times you fit the answer to the question. So actually, I think the four tendencies do not correlate with birth order at all.

[B]

Yeah. And I think most people are obligers. So it would be that most people, whatever order they're in, would be obligers.

[A]

Well, it isn't that most people are obligers, but the largest number of people are obligers.

[B]

Yeah, right. That's what I meant. Yes.

[A]

To be very fiddly about it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, here, Elizabeth, there's a question for you. Ruth says, in terms of face blindness, I'd be really interested in how this feeds into your work as a writer and showrunner. For instance, are there ways you can influence casting to avoid having two characters with very similar hairstyles and features, or using names a lot to avoid confusion? Maybe even writing similar characters into an interacting scene early on to make it simpler for face blind people to know their different characters? So, Elizabeth, this is a reference to the fact that you think that you might have some face blindness.

[B]

Yes, because I have a hard time sometimes recognizing people out of context or if I haven't met them several times. Well, not related to face blindness, but this is something that people are very aware of in television. There is a lot of concern that people won't be able to tell characters apart if they're, you know, both wearing their hair in a ponytail or if too many characters have the same color hair. You don't want names that sound too alike. You want to have names that sound very different. And a lot of times, especially say in a pilot, they'll try to not have the character change their hairstyle at all during the pilot so that you really lock in on what the person looks like. Now, this is even a bigger issue now, Gretchen, than it used to be because so many people have multiple devices going while watching television or a movie. Right. So many people are scrolling and watching a show, scrolling and watching a movie. So you really want to make sure that you're clear with who's who.

[A]

So would you maybe have somebody have a distinctive accent or something?

[B]

I would say you don't want to use an accent if it's not the person's accent, unless it's It's a story point. I think it goes more. A lot of it really is about hair. I think hair is a big way that people make associations.

[A]

Sure. But like, you wouldn't have two guys with brown beards because it's like brown beard guy.

[B]

Or they'd have to be very different beards.

[A]

Okay. Interesting. Kayla asks, any live shows again in the future?

[B]

Well, you just did a live show at south by Southwest.

[A]

I did, I did. We would love to do another tour or another big live show. We don't have any plan, but that would definitely be something we would love to do. Each one, Elizabeth, we enjoyed so much.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then Ann says, when will Elizabeth and Sarah have another writer's retreat? Elizabeth, when's that on?

[B]

You know, that is a good question. We're always talking about it. We're always going off with each other on tangents about what would it be? What do we want to focus on? Ann and anybody else out there. I will say email if you have thoughts on what you would like our writers retreat to be, because we will definitely do another one. We're just contemplating what it will be.

[A]

Oh, and also they should send you an email if they just want to be notified when you do it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Because you will do it. Yeah. Yeah. Good. That would be fun. Lindsay says, what do you two do when you catch yourself in a bad day? How can you turn it around and try to make a bad day better for yourself? That's such a good question. Elizabeth, what do you do?

[B]

Good question. Well, one, I know that if I exercise, I will feel better.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even if I don't want to because I'm in a bad mood. I do know that it could have a 180 impact on me. So that's the biggest thing. I also think reading, just unplugging and just listening to a book or reading a book, those are like the two big things that help me. How about you?

[A]

My thing is to go to bed early. If things are going really bad for me. Usually I might go to bed at say 8:30. And often if I'm having a really bad day, I will feel tired. So I can go to sleep at 8:30 because I'm just somebody where I always feel better in the morning. Elizabeth, you described me as sleep sensitive and I am very sleep sensitive. So I just feel better. And I also feel like the passage of time a lot of times just gives me more perspective. Then, Elizabeth, a lot of times I call you and I'll just say something like something bad happened to Me or I'm feeling so bad about something I did or whatever, and I just talk it over with you. You're a very comforting person. You really are very good at saying the right thing, which I think a lot of times people want to say the right thing, but they don't know the right thing to say. And I think you do know the right thing to say.

[B]

Well, thank you. That's such a nice compliment. Talking to you, of course, helps Me or talking to Sarah? Talking to Adam. Talking to my friend Mindy. Definitely talking helps. I will also mention that our mom as well as I think Eliza and Eleanor think taking a shower is a helpful thing to do.

[A]

Yeah, Tony, I really dislike taking showers.

[B]

As do I.

[A]

Yes. So that wouldn't be something, but yes. All three of them often remark how they feel better after they take a shower.

[B]

All right, Gretch, Coming up, more questions. But first, this break. Okay, Gretch, we are back, and we have a couple of questions about the Met. Janet said, gretchen, since you go to the Met every day, what are your must sees? Just took my first trip there and thought of you. And then Elizabeth said, I just visited the Met for the first time today, and I would love to know what is your favorite wing. We love the European paintings and Egyptian art, but we're not able to see everything.

[A]

Oh, I love these questions. Anybody who comes to New York City should definitely go to the Met. It's such a treasure trove. It's such an amazing place to visit. So I will give the same answers because I think that my must sees are my favorite things. They're the places that I return to the most. It's funny, when I go with a friend, I'm always like, I want to go see what you want to see, because I'm here all the time. I want to know what you're interested in, but sometimes they're just like, no, you tell me. Okay, so first of all, I would go to the scholar's garden on the second floor. This is the recreation of a scholar's garden in China. It has beautiful art all around it, but it also has living plants. It has a little waterfall with a pool that has koi fish swimming in it. And it's on the second floor. So I just think it's so strange that you, like, you come up a flight of stairs, and then you're in a garden with water and fish and trees, you know, and it's beautiful, and it's a really interesting space, and everything around it is very interesting too. So I would Go to the Scholars Garden. I would go to the Temple of Dender. This is probably the most famous place in the Met. It's an Egyptian temple that was moved from Egypt because it was gonna be flooded when they created a dam. And it's got water all around it with, like, rushes growing. And it has these big windows. So it's especially interesting if it's raining or snowing or if all the leaves are changing because you have this view outside. But just seeing this temple with water around it is really cool. I love a water feature. It turns out there's also visible storage. A lot of people who go to the Met have never seen this. It's tucked away in the American Wing on a mezzanine level. And it's visible storage, meaning instead of things being displayed the way they usually are, as you would expect, it's more like rows and rows and rows and rows of similar things. And it might be ceramic mugs or silver spoons or portraits or bookcases, all these American objects, but just they're not displayed in the same way. It's like going to the attic of the Met and seeing these things, and then you can look them up online if you want to learn more about them. But there's just something about seeing this mass of objects that I think is really, really interesting.

[B]

And do they rotate what they have in visible storage?

[A]

Well, Elizabeth, that's such an interesting question, because they do. And one of the things that has really surprised me about the Met generally is how much stuff moves. I always thought basically, these were the treasures of the Met, and more or less they say the same. They do not. And then invisible storage. I thought, oh, this is the stuff in storage. It doesn't change. It does change. Like, when you go all the time. At first I thought I was sort of imagining things or like my memory was playing tricks on me. And now I realize they are moving stuff constantly. So, yes, if you visited it a year ago, you might see very different things there. And then the final thing I want to mention, just because we are coming up here in the United States on our semi quincentennial, I think I pronounced that right. For our 250th anniversary, they have a special exhibition called Revolution, which has some stuff related to the revolution. But you can visit the monumental Washington Crossing the Delaware, which is this absolutely enormous painting which is displayed really beautifully. It's super interesting to see, certainly one of the highlights of the Met and very relevant to today. So those are some of my favorite things, and some of the Things that I would say you should try to visit. If you go, love it. And then Shirk's work asks, what is something you and Elizabeth have agreed to disagree about? That's interesting, Elizabeth, because we agree about a lot.

[B]

The thing that came to my mind is eating sugar. I think I have no interest in not eating sugar. You don't eat sugar. And I think we've just agreed to disagree. Like, you're not trying to get me to stop sugar, and I'm not trying to get you to eat sugar.

[A]

Yeah. Back to the abstainer moderator conversation. Yeah. For me, I just decided it's easier to abstain. And you're never trying to say, like, oh, but. Well.

[B]

And it's hard for me because I'm in a weird position where, As a type 1 diabetic, generally I shouldn't eat sugar. At the same time, there are times where I have to eat a candy bar because I have to bring my blood sugar up. So sugar is just a weird thing in my life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I wouldn't want to try to abstain. It just wouldn't work for me.

[A]

Yeah. So we've just agreed to disagree, and

[B]

we're very at peace.

[A]

Yeah. Live and let live with that. Yeah.

[B]

Another thing, Gretch, we disagree about is science fiction. Fantasy, I guess I would call it. You love it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I do not.

[A]

And I don't like reality tv.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I keep thinking maybe I should give it a shot and I'll really like it because Elizabeth likes it so much. Every once in a while I do, and I never like it.

[B]

Yeah. So we have our things.

[A]

We have our things. Deborah asks, did Liz buy a pair of upscaled shoes for SoCal winners? I live about 20 miles from her, and I'm in the same quandary. Okay, Elizabeth, people want to know, what have you done about your shoe situation?

[B]

Great question, Deborah. You know what happened? We never ended up getting into a real winter. I mean, I was worrying about this. I was thinking about this, and it is now, today, I think, going to be 94 degrees.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So it just feels irrelevant now what my winter shoe situation is. I will say what I've honed in on, that I really need and I am looking for is the perfect pair of black sneakers. All black sneakers, because that would be the shoe that I could wear in the winter that elevates a little bit, but is still very comfortable. But a lot of black sneakers I don't like, or they look too sporty. So what I want is that sleek pair of beautiful black sneakers. So if anyone has one to recommend, please do email it, because that is the thing I am in search of.

[A]

I could really use that too, so.

[B]

And I don't want a lot of white on it. I want it to be really almost entirely black.

[A]

Okay. That's very specific. That feels like a good mission. You know, I often just buy whatever you buy or mom buys or Eliza buys or Eleanor buys. I do that. So I'll let you cool hunt for those shoes, and then I'll buy exactly the same thing.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

And then finally, Lee had a very thoughtful question. She said, I've been reflecting on something you shared after your father's passing. That your family aren't demonstrative in the way of saying I love you. Not because the love wasn't there, but because of the Midwest culture and also because you all felt so certain that it didn't need to be said. I live in Australia, but also come from a family in which we don't say I love you either. When I have tried to say I love you, it can feel awkward. Although my mom has reciprocated sometimes and I get the impression she would like to hear it more often. But even then, it's still awkward. As my parents get older, I felt a pressure to say the words more often so they know. But hearing you speak about non demonstrative love was like a weight off my heart. I realized it's absolutely fine not to say these words. But it sparked my curiosity about how your family, for example, showed that love. My main concern is that they won't know. They'll die without knowing how much I love them. I'd be so grateful if you could share some insight. What does non demonstrative love look like in your family? Such a thoughtful question.

[B]

Yes, such a thoughtful question. One thing I'd say, Gretch, is we're lucky because we do have the podcast, and I think we're able to talk about mom and dad so often and how great they are and what we've learned from them. And so I think we are particularly able to express our love vocally in that way.

[A]

I also think that we have a family tradition that is sometimes controversial, which is that at Christmas, we really do give. Like, if we are in person, we give each other a lot of gifts. Sometimes, Elizabeth, you. You take years on and off, and we don't send gifts when you're not there, but when you're there, you give gifts. And I think the thing about giving gifts, we have a whole ritual where we choose for who you buy presents. For. And so I would buy presents for mom, and you would buy presents for me. So you're. You're basically buying for one person, but you do get them several gifts, not just, like, one gift. And we're all helping each other out. Like, oh, I thought of a good gift for this person, so I got it so that you can give to them, since they're the person assigned to you. I do think that there's something nice about this because it really forces you to pay attention to someone's very particular preferences and tastes. And I think that helps people feel seen, which is such a cliche to say, but it's like every year we would give dad the Far side calendar because he loved the Far side. He got the biggest kick out of the Far side. Or like, Jamie, one year, I got a bourbon of the month. Right. Because he loves bourbon. And it's like, oh, you're paying attention. You know that I used to not really have a taste for bourbon, but now I like bourbon, and here's this bourbon that I'm getting. So I think that is something where you sort of are forced to pay attention to somebody's quirks in a way that then I think, helps them feel loved.

[B]

Yeah. And then, you know, I think frequent contact, whether it's texting, talking, seeing each other. You know, one thing dad did a lot was send us articles about things he thought we would find interesting. And I think that definitely is such a sign of love. Or mom will send us, you know, a funny New Yorker cartoon.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just things to let people know you're thinking about them.

[A]

Yeah. And I think another thing, that is something that we do, and I hadn't thought about it in this way, but one of the things about feeling loved is feeling that somebody wants to be with you, and they seek your presence, and they find they enjoy your presence. One of the things dad pointed out was that with seeing each other, frequency was more important than duration. Meaning it's about to come for two nights. More often than to say, like, well, it's not worth going to Kansas City if we can't stay for a week. So we'll just wait until we can come for a week. Because sometimes you just. You're not gonna be able to come for a week for a long time, but maybe, like, you could go in and out for a quick visit, and that's worth it because you can really feel like you see somebody in just a night or two. So I thought that was very helpful. But then also, we had traditions, like, after breakfast, we would Just sit in our parents living room and just talk for hours. Right. And like, somebody would say, like, oh, you know, do you want to go sit and catch up? Or like, there's sort of like a tradition that we would do it. And what it said is, like, I really want to sit down and just talk to you. There's nothing else going on. We're just going to sit here and fill our coffee cups. That's our Swedish heritage. We all drink a tremendous amount of coffee and just talk. And it is that feeling of like, I just want to sit down beside you and talk.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, we don't snipe at each other, so I don't think we have to overcome a feeling of like, is there love or not? I feel like it's been there basically since birth and it's just never gone away.

[A]

No. And I would never say that it's not good to say I love you. It's funny because Jamie is like, is the guy who like my family with Jamie, Eliza and Eleanor, we say it constantly, all the time. It's just a part of our family culture. I think it's great. But I do think that if you feel like it's communicated in other ways, like, it never bothered us. Right. Elizabeth? We never fussed about this or worried about it.

[B]

I never thought about it until we

[A]

picked that poem late fragment and it was like, do you know that, you know, call myself beloved? It's like, well, we knew dad knew that he was beloved, even though we never said it. We knew he knew, but we talked

[B]

about that before he died. With him.

[A]

With him. Yes, we did. We did. Well, these are such great questions. Thank you so much as always. You can drop us an [e-mail] or YouTube. You can go to Instagram, threads, TikTok, Facebook. This is episode 580, so you can get the show [e-mail] 580. And that is it for this episode of Happier. Thank you for all your questions. These were so much fun.

[B]

And thank you to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada.

[A]

And here's your rhyming reminder, like, what you heard.

[B]

Spread the word until next week. I'm Elizabeth.

[A]

And I'm Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward. Elizabeth, it sounds like your voice got stronger as we went along. Is it feeling better or did you just have a bad patch and then a good patch?

[B]

Yes, it's like, I'll be fine for like six hours and then have a bad patch. So I think it just, just when we started. Maybe because it's early, I was particularly scratchy.

[A]

Hi Gretchen. Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here we host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you.

[B]

You know, Gretchen, a lot of our

[A]

listeners are going through some major life changes.

[B]

What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

[A]

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you get podcasts, you can listen to. Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Keke Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.