Ep. 585: A Simple Way to Spark Better Conversations, Plus the End-of-History Illusion

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin – Ep. 585: A Simple Way to Spark Better Conversations, Plus the End-of-History Illusion
Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Gretchen Rubin and her sister/co-host Elizabeth Craft delve into two major topics for building a happier life: the power of asking paired questions to spark richer, more effective conversations, and exploring the "End-of-History Illusion"—the common misconception that we won't change much in the future. Alongside these key themes, the sisters share listener hacks, personal reflections, and their weekly demerit and gold star.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Listener Feedback and Updates

• Photo Hack for Worry (02:16–04:12):
  • Listeners Julie and Kate share their success using the strategy of taking photos to remember details, like medication administration for pets or identifying favorite cheeses.
  • Gretchen: “So that’s a perfect example of how this can help you remember…you don’t have that waste and you don’t have that worry.” (03:11)
• Big Project vs. Habit (04:12–06:10):
  • Listener Rebecca describes tackling the daunting task of sorting through 15 years of her children’s homeschooling papers bit by bit, tied to her laundry routine.
  • Rebecca: “I told my husband this was the only way I knew I would do it…The years of my life dedicated to the education of my children deserve the drawn out appreciation and attention.” (05:12)

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2. Try This at Home: Asking Paired Questions (06:10–11:51)

• Origins & Concept (06:10–06:59):
  • Inspired by Michael Melcher, an executive coach, paired questions involve posing two complementary questions to invite more nuanced answers.
  • Example: “What kind of people do well here? And what kind of people don’t do as well?” (06:59)
• Why It Works (07:01–08:38):
  • Signals openness, encourages creative responses, invites a broader spectrum of feedback, and helps the questioner gather more useful information.
  • Gretchen: “It makes you look like you have more critical thinking skills because you’re saying, well, this could be good, this could be bad.” (07:43)
• Broader Applications (08:38–10:14):
  • Work interviews, social conversations, talking with kids (“roses and thorns” or “peaks and valleys”), and even in medical contexts—for example, asking about both the benefits and risks of a procedure.
  • Gretchen: “By asking a paired question, you make sure you get both sides of that information.” (10:04)
• Engagement and Mindset Benefits (10:14–11:51):
  • Invites meaningful discussion, makes others feel comfortable, and even helps keep oneself accountable for engaging more fully.

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3. Happiness Hack: Gamifying Chores (14:52–15:57)

• Listener Andrea shares her approach of timing chores she dislikes and trying to beat her estimate, turning them into a game.
• Elizabeth: “We always need hacks for those nagging daily chores.” (15:53)

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4. Know Yourself Better: Alone vs. With Others at Home (15:57–18:56)

• Gretchen poses the question of whether being home with your spouse feels the same as being truly alone.
• Both sisters agree there’s a tangible difference, even if the other person is asleep or silent.
• Elizabeth: “It’s almost a physical feeling...it sounds quieter.” (16:35)
• Discuss the special, comforting quality pets add to solitary time (Mae Sarton quote at 18:07).

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5. The End-of-History Illusion (18:56–23:39)

• Explaining the Illusion (18:56–19:44):
  • People tend to believe they won’t change much in the future, even though they recognize past growth.
  • Gretchen: “We think we’ve sort of reached the end of history. We think we’re sort of cooked or baked or we’re at our culmination point.” (19:13)
• Real-Life Examples (19:44–20:37):
  • Gretchen shares her daughter Eleanor’s repeated declarations of having found her “true style,” which consistently evolve.
• Paradox of Change and Stability (20:25–21:29):
  • Discussion about feeling both consistent and ever-changing.
  • Elizabeth: “I like this idea of evolving and changing…we’re never stagnant.” (21:10)
• Implications for Life Stages (21:25–23:26):
  • Gretchen reflects on the empty nest phase, recognizing her life will keep shifting despite feeling ‘set.’
  • Both recall witnessing growth in their parents and in-law’s lives over time.
• Key Quote: “Live in an atmosphere of growth. Right. And the end of history illusion is like, there will be no more growth… But in fact, we can continue to grow and we’ll continue to change.” – Gretchen (23:02)

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6. Demerit and Gold Star (25:57–30:47)

• Happiness Demerit (Gretchen, 26:04–28:22):
  • Didn’t fully appreciate Central Park’s spring bloom season, even though she made some effort.
  • Elizabeth: “Or you walk and you don’t notice…You can just walk and be in your head, listening to a podcast and not even notice what’s around you.” (27:21)
• Gold Star (Elizabeth, 29:13–30:47):
  • Thanks listeners for helping her hunt for the perfect pair of black sneakers and discusses the challenge of finding staple wardrobe items.
  • Gretchen: “The perfect white t-shirt…Far harder than buying like a flower dress…nothing is more difficult.” (30:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Opposites are always interesting.” – Elizabeth (09:13)
• “Sometimes, you don’t want to hear it, but you need to hear it. So make sure that you give them the invitation to tell you.” – Gretchen (11:20)
• “Solitude shared with animals has a special quality and rarely turns to loneliness.” – Quoting Mae Sarton (18:07)
• “Live in an atmosphere of growth.” – Gretchen referencing her book The Happiness Project (23:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Listener Feedback & Updates: 02:16–06:10
• Paired Questions Discussion: 06:10–11:51
• Happiness Hack (Gamifying Chores): 14:52–15:57
• Alone vs. With Others at Home Discussion: 15:57–18:56
• The End-of-History Illusion: 18:56–23:39
• Demerit & Gold Star: 25:57–30:47

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Takeaway

This episode encourages listeners to transform routine conversations and life moments by using paired questions—unlocking deeper dialogue, better information, and more meaningful connections. It also offers a comforting reminder that growth is ongoing, despite the illusion that our personalities and circumstances are fixed. The hosts deliver these lessons with their usual warmth, humor, and relatability, making the guidance engaging and practical for everyday happiness.

Transcript

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Imagine your mom's medication list, your fitness insights, and your child's latest checkup notes all in one protected space. No more digging through the files or chasing portal passwords. Just peace of mind knowing your health story is safe, organized and shared only with those you trust. Because managing health should be shared and vividvault makes it simple for your whole village to stay involved. Prioritize your well being, protect your family's future. Sign up [e-mail] Foreign. Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about strategies and suggestions for making our lives happier. This week we'll talk about why it's helpful to ask paired questions and we discuss the fascinating end of history illusion. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature. I'm in my little home office in New York City and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. And Elizabeth, I cannot wait to dive into paired questions with you.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in la. And yes, Gretch, I'm always happy to have our conversations, but before we jump

[Gretchen Rubin]

in, a few updates. First, we talked about a segment on a quick cure for worry, which is to use a photograph to kind of make a note of something.

If you think that it might worry

you later to know whether you did it or not, julie wrote. I want to thank you for the Happiness Hack. A Quick Cure for Worry My beloved little Chihuahua has stage three kidney disease. It is such a hard time emotionally and part of his treatment is the home administration of subcutaneous fluids, saline injected under the skin to help him stay well hydrated. Well, the instructions are to put a clean needle on the fluid bag after every use. And while I do this every time I I find myself questioning if I remembered the next day when it is time to give them again. It would be bad to use a dirty needle and I sometimes change it again just to be safe, but I hate wasting medical supplies. Enter the happiness hack. Now when I change the needle, I snap a quick photo of the new needle next to the old one. This has been a game changer and I'm so glad to have this new trick to make a hard task a bit easier. So that's a perfect example of how this can help you remember. If you did something, you just look on the date of it and you think, okay, I did it or I didn't do it. And then you don't have that waste and you don't have that worry.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, Kate said. I want to piggyback on your good idea of taking a photo of things. I am a cheesemonger at a fancy grocery store and it is wise if you like a cheese, to take a photo of the label or of the cheese or any product you really like. When you come to the grocery store and you mentioned, oh, it was a cheese and it was blue, you can imagine. But if a guest shows us the picture, we can figure it out together. Yes, Gretchen, I've had that experience with cheese of trying to find a cheese that I did not take a photo of.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, it's funny also because you think, oh, I'll completely remember what this looks like. But then when you're confronted with like a bunch of different examples that look more or less the same, it's very hard to be certain of what you thought you knew.

Yeah.

And then Rebecca responded about the difference between getting a big project done versus working on a habit. She said listening to you talk about getting one big project done rather than establishing a habit reminded me of when I sorted through my homeschooling years. I homeschooled my two children all the way until college when the youngest left. I looked at this enormous amount of papers and folders and notebooks from 15 years of school and was overwhelmed. This was all in my basement where the washer and dryer are. One day when the washer was filling with water about three minutes, I walked to the multiple shelving of homeschool materials and took out one folder. I spent the three minutes spreading it out on the floor to see what it was, then then left it there. The next day I had a plan. Every time I did a load of laundry, I would sort paperwork, spreading it out on the floor. We used our basement so this was not going to be hidden or out of the way. I told my husband this was the only way I knew I would do it. And he let me be. It took about six months. Several times a week at three minutes a clip, I relived all the years, the memories, the amazing time I had with my children. I sorted, organized and recycled until I had two neat shelves of what I wanted to keep. Afterwards, I tried to show my husband, my kids when they visited, my mom, anyone, but they didn't care as much. It was my project and I'm so glad it took as long as it did. The years of my life dedicated to the education of my children deserve the drawn out appreciation and attention that only I could give. Every time I pass the shelves, I'm proud of my accomplishment, both the homeschooling and the organization of the memories. So this is a great example of how Rebecca didn't need to build a habit around this. She just needed to tackle a big project and get it done. And she found a way to do it like in a reasonable amount of time. And now she has all the satisfaction of like having sorted through all that material.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. And we will give her lots of gold stars for doing it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Even if no one else wants to

pour through all the shelves. Yes. Yes, indeed.

So this week our try this at home suggestion is to ask paired questions.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. So what does this mean? Grunge?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this is an idea that comes from our old friend Michael Melcher. Michael is an executive coach and a writer. We both know him. He is the CEO of M2Leaders. He's a recognized authority on work and leadership. He's written some really useful books like youe Invisible Network, a book that I often recommend to people, which is the Creative Lawyer. He now has an interesting newsletter on substack called Michael Melcher writes and recently had this suggestion and I'll post a link in the show notes if you wanna read his. But it was the idea of asking paired questions and the way he brought it up was, you know when you're doing an interview and they say, do you have any questions? And you're racking your brain to come up with a question that sounds intelligent

and will actually give you good information.

He said that when you're in this kind of situation, which is job interviews,

but not necessarily job interviews, you ask

a pair of questions rather than just one question. So for instance, you might say what kind of people do well here?

And. And what kind of people don't do as well?

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Gretchen, explain why this opens up the conversation and it really does.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Well, he said when you ask paired questions, first of all, it signals that you're open to a wide range of responses.

You're not asking a leading question.

They encourage the respondent to think creatively, that you're inviting a conversation, not just looking for very certain kind of information. It makes you look like you have more critical thinking skills because you're saying,

well, this could be good, this could be bad.

Maybe somebody with certain kinds of skills does better than somebody else with other kinds of skills.

And because they invite both negative information and positive information, you're probably going to

get more helpful feedback to move the conversation forward and then also to stimulate your own thinking and your own conclusions. Right. It's going to give you a wider range of information, might make somebody open up and give you a different kind of response that they wouldn't have given

if you'd only answered the one question.

Well.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And it gives them more to respond to so they can find what interests them in terms of responding. I mean, they're going to be people who want to tell you about who is great for this office, and they're going to be people who'd rather talk about who doesn't work. So it sort of allows them more opportunity to be comfortable in what they're saying, I think.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

Well.

And to give you valuable information.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But as he points out, you can

use this in a lot of situations,

like, let's say you're trying to make

conversation with somebody and. And so you say something like, well, what is a trip that you made that was amazing?

And then what was a trip that was kind of meh? Because you could have somebody be like, oh, well, I'll tell you, I was

so excited to go see the biggest ball of string.

And it was such a disappointment. People can take it in different directions

when you invite the pair of questions.

And it's sort of just fun, too, to, like, acknowledge the other side.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, it goes with the thing we always say of the opposite of a truth is also true. It's like opposites are always interesting.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Opposites are always interesting.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And you can also do this with trying to get. Get kids to talk to you, you know, like about their day. You can say, what was the best thing that happened today? What was something you didn't like that happened today? And then again, they don't necessarily have to answer both, but you're providing a platform for them to have more options.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think people call this a roses and thorns.

Yes, if I have that.

Right.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Or peaks and valleys.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

So that's a kind of paired question

that we're familiar with.

And then I also think this can be really, really helpful with doctors because you could say, like, well, what's the benefit of getting this procedure? But then what happens if I don't get the procedure? Because sometimes you just focus on one side of the question. It's like, okay, well, what if I don't do anything?

What would happen?

That's really valuable information. So you want to elicit that. You don't want to assume that that information is going to be provided to

you just in the course of the conversation.

But it's really useful as you're deciding often how to proceed. So you want to, you know, by asking a paired question, you make sure that you get both sides of that information.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. What really resonates with me about this is the starting a conversation of it all.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

You're signaling to the person you're talking to that you want to actually have a discussion. And I do think, like, with a doctor or with someone who you're interviewing with, it could make them kind of lean more into the conversation and settle in like, okay, this person isn't just going to go away, so I might as well commit to this conversation. Of course, that's all happening unconsciously, but I do think it'd make a difference.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's an interesting way to think about it because often we go into those conversations sort of like, what do I say? It's a very helpful way to think. Okay, well, think about it this way. Think about the pair of questions.

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And Gretchen, I am someone who often feels like I'm trying to let the person off the hook as quickly as possible. And so this is a good way to remind myself, okay, don't just say as little as possible so they can be done with this like a doctor, but actually take the time I need. So it's almost like accountability idea for oneself.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is a really good point because sometimes, like, you don't want to hear it, but you need to hear it. So make sure that you give them the invitation to tell you. Yes, that is a really good point. Well, let us know if you do try this at home and how asking paired questions works for you and in what context you ask them. Let us know on Instagram threads, TikTok, Facebook. Drop us an [e-mail] or as always, you can go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com585 for everything related to this episode.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Coming up, we've got a happiness hack about gamifying. But first, this break.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp lately I've been thinking how easy it is to feel like you're supposed to have everything figured out, even when something is weighing on you.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, and sometimes it's the kind of thing that keeps you up at night. You go over it again and again and it can feel like you are the only one dealing with it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And the truth is, no one has all the answers on their own. Having someone to talk to, someone who can listen and help you sort through what's going on, can make a real

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Happier that's better. H E L P I've been trying to say yes more to little adventures. Nothing huge, just getting out of the routine and going somewhere different for the day and it really makes you appreciate having a car that feels solid and comfortable where you're not thinking about the drive, you're just focused on where you're going. That's what stood out to me about the Defender. It has that rugged design, but it also feels really thoughtful inside and I like that. There's a full lineup from the two door 90 to the 110 and the 130 with seating for up to eight. So it really fits different kinds of

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, we got a happiness hack that comes from our listener, Andrea.

[Elizabeth Craft]

She says we all have those regular chores we really dislike, often not for any rational reason. For me, these include taking down, washing and rehanging the shower curtain, changing out the sheets on my bed, and emptying the dishwasher. When you think about it, though, many of these take very little time. So little that sometimes I spend more time procrastinating than actually completing them. So I remind myself that I can get them done in X amount of minutes, and then I gamify it by seeing if I can beat my estimate. It gets me motivated to finish in even less time. Love this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I love this because first of all, it's a reminder of the hack that if there's something that you don't like to do, time it. Because it might take a lot less time than you think. For me, like taking a shower and drying my hair ended up taking a lot less time than I thought it did. And then it is the value of gamifying that a lot of times, if we can find a way to turn it into some kind of game, it makes it a lot less onerous. I love this.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, Gretch, we always need hacks for those nagging daily chores.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. And now for a know yourself better question. Elizabeth, this is a comment somebody made to me about themselves. And I thought, this is so interesting because I disagree about myself and I wondered what you think. Someone told me that when I'm home and it's just me and my husband, I feel the same way as I feel when I am alone. And I thought, wow, that is not true. For me, I feel very different when I'm home alone than when I'm home when my husband is home, even if he's fast asleep. It just the quality of the atmosphere feels completely different. So I was surprised by that. How about you, Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, I definitely feel feel different if I'm totally alone versus if Adam is here. Yeah, it's almost a physical feeling. It's like a sensation of having another person in the house is just different from the sensation of being alone. And even though the noise level could be the same, it sounds quieter.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this comes up in my Empty Nest project because I really do think that every person in a household really dramatically changes the energy in the household. Even if, as you say, they're not making any noise or moving around, there's just something about it. And sometimes that can be too much, you know, like, oh, my gosh, there's like too much energy in this household. And then sometimes it can be hard to adjust when there is a drop in the energy. I think that's one thing that many people feel when a child leaves home. But then I was thinking, do I like that quality? And I was realizing that I love being alone during the day. I still have that feeling that I had, like, as a kid or a teenager when I was home all alone. I loved that feeling. I still love that feeling. But at night I'm a little more ambivalent. Sometimes I like being by myself. Sometimes I don't enjoy it as much. How about you?

[Elizabeth Craft]

I like it at times. I mean, I have to say I'm not alone very often. So I think when I am, I do enjoy it. But there's definitely having Nacho and Daisy, you know, helps me, like, say I am alone at night. That's when I think I really do like having the dogs and having company.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, I feel the same way about Taffy and Barnaby. It reminds me of this beautiful quotation from the poet Mae Sartin. She wrote in her book the House by the Sea, solitude shared with animals has a special quality and rarely turns to loneliness. And I think there is something about the wordless companionship of animals that sometimes it can give us the best aspects of being alone and the best aspects of being in company. They're very reassuring, for sure.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And to your point, Gretch, about how every person in the house changes the energy, as I've discussed, it really changed when we went from one to two dogs.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, for sure. And I was home without Jamie or Tappy or Barnaby. And I mean, I felt really all by myself. And I did sort of enjoy it. Cause I was like, woo. I got the place to myself, but only for a brief period. I liked it when they all came back.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And now, speaking of my Empty Nest Open Door project, here is an interesting psychological phenomenon that I have been thinking about in the context of the empty nest. So for our empty Nest segment, the end of history illusion. Okay. In the end of history, of illusion, people of all ages mistakenly believe that while they have experienced growth and change up to the present, they won't significantly grow or change in the future. That's the illusion we think we've sort of reached the end of history. We think we're sort of cooked or baked or we're sort of at our culmination point. But what the research shows is that we do continue to change throughout our lives. So you might feel like you're finished, but actually you aren't.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That is so interesting. I totally know I've fallen into this thinking before.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, a place where I see it all the time is with my daughter Eleanor, who's just, like, in her early 20s. And yet over and over in the last several years, she'll say, well, now I found my true style. And she's like, okay, in the past, I had the style. That style. What was I thinking? That's not my style. But now I have achieved my true style. Now I say, okay, because then months or years go by, and then she's like, no, no, no. Now I have found my true style. And so that's just, like, a really specific example of why you think it. And it's funny because there is this paradox where, on the one hand, you do feel very much the same. And, like, there is this consistency. There is this persistence.

Like, I do feel like I'm very

much the same person that I was when I was seven years old. But on the other hand, I do see how I have changed. And I've continued to change significantly every five years. I'm not at the end of history.

[Elizabeth Craft]

This reminds me of something I was talking about on More Happier a while back. Gretchen with the Real Housewives, which is one thing I love about watching the Real Housewives is you see how much people do change year over year or year one on the show to year eight on the show. And I find that comforting because it's like, okay, whatever I'm going through now, something totally different will be happening in two years. And I like this idea of evolving and changing out. Sometimes things can change for the worse, obviously, but I like this idea that we're never stagnant.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right. But don't you think the Real Housewives show that deep paradox of human nature? Because on the one hand, you probably would say, like, this particular Real Housewife is probably very recognizably herself over all

those years, and yet there has been this tremendous change.

So, like, both things can be true

at the same time. I fall into this trap with the empty nest stage. Cause I'm like, oh, well, now that Eliza and Eleanor are out on their own, Jamie and I, our lives are fixed. It's gonna all be the same from here. But that's the End of history illusion. History has not ended. He will change. I will change. Our life will change. They will change.

We'll all change.

I think it is comforting, as you say, Elizabeth. I mean, I guess there's sort of a bittersweet quality to it because sometimes you think, well, this is really a special time.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I'd like it to stay the same.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Or I'm really happy the way things are.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, Gretch, you were pointing this out with the open door phase, that this period when you have children who are young adults but not yet with partners, don't have kids, is its own very specific time. And should they end up having kids and being nearby, that will be a totally different phase of life for you that you can't even probably like recognize at this point.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right, right.

It's not predictable or you don't know what's coming, but things do happen. But then, you know, I think of our parents, Elizabeth. I think of my in laws now that I have known them, you know, for such a long time. They've definitely changed and grown over this time. I mean, I think of many examples of how they have changed and grown and for the better too, which is itself reassuring, which is that maybe we can grow in wisdom and all the virtues that we sort of hope to cultivate.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, Gretchen, let's remember from the Happiness Project, live in an atmosphere of growth.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Live in an atmosphere of growth. Right. And the end of history illusion is like there will be no more growth. What you see is what you get. And we are what we are. But in fact, we can continue to grow and we'll continue to change. So I always think it's helpful to have a name for things. And the minute I heard about the end of history illusion, I recognized it in myself. And I also thought it was useful to know that this is common. And it's funny that people of all ages have it. It's not something that happens to you.

Yes.

When you're middle aged, even someone Eleanor's age has end of history illusion. Yes. So listeners, if you have caught yourself in the end of history illusion, let us know how, because I do think this is a really interesting psychological phenomenon.

[Elizabeth Craft]

All right, coming up, Gretchen has a Central park demerit. But first, this break. Lately I've been trying to simplify what I wear day to day. Just pieces that feel easy but still put together. I do not want to overthink it. And I have been reaching for quints a lot. No surprise there. Everybody knows my love for quints. I love their linen pieces. They're so breathable, but they still look polished. They're the kind of thing you can wear all day and not think about changing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And when I saw the price, I honestly double checked. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because Quince works directly with ethical factories. Like you, Elizabeth, I just find that Quince makes getting dressed simpler and the pieces actually hold up. Quince uses premium materials like European linen and organic cotton, so you're getting quality without the usual markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com Gretchen for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Gretchen for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Gretchen guys, we gotta talk about

[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

All right, Gretchen, we are back with demerits and gold stars. And this week it's your turn for a happiness demerit.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think I'm gonna give myself a half demerit because I did this somewhat, but I didn't do it as much as I should have. And that is walking in Central park when it is in full bloom. There is a period every spring where Central park is just the most bonkers flowering place. Magnolia trees, cherry blossoms, daffodils, pansies, tulips, forsythia things. I don't know what they're called. Are they bluebells? They're what I picture bluebells to be. But I don't know if they're actually bluebells. Little violets. I think they're called red buds. They're all over the place. And I remind myself of this. And I did walk through Central park several times and I did see just extraordinary blossoms. And a couple of times I walked with friends. So we actually walked further than I usually do in my regular walks, up to a place called Conservatory Garden, which is really planted, so it has all kinds of plantings. It's spectacularly beautiful. And so I did appreciate it, and I did go out of my way. I walked in Central park more than I ordinarily would have done. But even still, it's such a fleeting time.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And it's so beautiful. And it's just like, oh, this is why I love being able to walk through Central Park. And day to day, I kind of find myself making excuses.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Or you walk and you don't notice. I mean, I think that's a lot. You can just walk and be in your head, listening to a podcast and not even really notice what's around you a thousand percent.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I don't stop and think like, oh, oh, let me look at the flowering trees across the boating lake. Or let me stop and look at the reflection of the flowering trees in the lake where all of the toy boats are floated. Or look at the great lawn. Or look at the magnolia trees around the obelisk that's behind the mat. Like, there are all these little vistas. And sometimes, exactly as you say, I'll start out very aware I'm entering the park. I'm like, look at the daffodils. Look at this, look at that. And then I get caught up in my own thoughts, or I get caught up in a podcast, just walking automatically. And so I think this is something that just every year, unless I just simply made it a point to go every single day, which maybe I should. Maybe I should say, I'm not gonna go to the Met when the park is in full flower. I'm just gonna switch to doing the park every day. Maybe I'll do that next year.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's interesting.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Also. Cause I feel like the Met is almost part of Central Park. You know, it's right there. So it feels one and the same.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

But Gretch, I have a friend who's son used to, like, go to school in one direction, and now he goes to school in Pasadena, which is the other direction. And she was saying how much her commute to take him to school has changed. Because going toward Pasadena, you see all these gorgeous mountains. Oh, it's interesting. You know, she said it's so much less of a hassle feeling just because the view is so good.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That it's its own sort of pleasure.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that's so interesting.

And like.

And something she 100% did not take into account. I'm sure. When they were considering making that change, and yet now it changes her everyday experience. Isn't that interesting?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, Elizabeth, that's my demerit. What is your gold star?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, Gretch, I wanna give a gold star to all of our listeners who have been sending black sneaker choices to me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. People have really embraced. They want you to get your answer, Elizabeth. They've got ideas.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. I have discussed on the podcast that I need black sneakers, and they're very tricky to get because they can be very clunky looking, heavy looking. So I've gotten lots of great options from listeners. I am sort of going through and looking at them all. I haven't committed yet. You know, I'm an underbuyer. It takes a lot for me to make that move to actually buy something. But I am looking at all of the links people are sending me, so I really appreciate it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, I feel like that's the very hardest kind of thing to buy. Like, buying the perfect white T shirt is far harder than buying, like, a flower dress.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because the perfect white T shirt, it has to be the right weight, it has to be the right length, it has to have the right neck, it has to have the right arms, it has to be the right price. It can't be too fragile. Like, whereas you think, what's easier than just buying a white T shirt? And you're like, no, nothing is more difficult. And I feel like a black sneaker is right there because it seems like, yes, how different could they be? And yet this one's too clunky. This one's heel is wrong. I mean, there's just a million things that you want to be perfect.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Speaking of Gretch, I had a revelation about white T shirts, which is I thought I liked a thicker white T shirt, but I've now decided I like a thinner white T shirt. So I'm honing in there on what's going to be the ultimate white T shirt.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But if they're too thin, then they are too see through.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, that's the tricky part.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's why they're so tricky.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I should just say I'm never going to wear a white T shirt again and just be done with it and then save myself so much. Like, because I. I get them and then I save them, and then I have to force myself to wear them and. Oh, it's a whole thing. The resource for this week. If you would like to try a little happiness boost each week, you can check out my free newsletter, which is called five Things Making me Happy. It's five Things Making Me Happy. I have so much fun working on this newsletter. Every week I collect things all throughout the week. I have this giant trove. In a recent issue, I shared a video. I can't remember if it was Jamie sent it to me or mom sent it to me. Elizabeth. It was the song Staying Alive. You know the Bee Gees song? Yes, of course. From Saturday Night Fever. That iconic song as if it had been written in the 16th century as a madrigal. I laughed out loud. I've watched it so many times. And the thing that I realized, you know, I'm not much of a music lover and I'm like, I love a madrigal. I didn't even know that's what they were called. You don't know what a madrigal is? Go listen to Stayin Alive on this

link and you will be like, oh,

yeah, that's a madrigal. You've heard it. I love it. Who knew that I like 16th century music? But anyway, it's so fun to have an outlet for these things. Casina. You just want to share them. So if you want to sign up for five things making me happy, that is happiercast.com newsletter. You can look at previous issues there too. It's super fun. And Alicia, what are we reading? What are you reading?

[Elizabeth Craft]

I am reading Liars by Sarah Manguso.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I am reading the Correspondent by Virginia Evans. And that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Ask paired questions. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Thanks to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And here is your rhyming reminder. If you like the show, tell others you know we really mean it. Tell people you like the show.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Until next week, I'm Elizabeth Craft.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I'm Gretchen Rubin.

Thanks for joining us.

Onward and upward,

[Elizabeth Craft]

Gretchen. I have achieved one perfect T shirt.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You have?

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's an off white from sold out NYC and I'm declaring it my perfect T shirt. It's not a white T shirt. It's off white. Not the same.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, that's your color.

Yes.

I must have it. I need you to send me all the information I need to try it myself.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay. It's wonderful.