← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
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- [00:02]
A
Lemonada. Hello. We're here for more Happier, a podcast where we get happier. It's the weekend, it's the looser vibe. Hey, Elizabeth.
- [00:25]
B
Hi, Gretchen.
- [00:27]
A
In the decade we've been doing this podcast together, one of the most common happiness stumbling blocks we hear about is clutter related conflict. One person in a home feels overwhelmed by the state of their surroundings. The other person may not even see the clutter. It can be very frustrating. But over time, we have discovered some very practical ways to deal with it.
- [00:50]
B
So today we're revisiting our most useful ideas on clutter conflict. Not easy to say. Starting with some try this at home tips that you can use this week,
- [01:03]
A
Elizabeth. This week, our try this at home tip is to confront a clutter related conflict in a relationship. Because if you live with other people or work with other people, there may often be a recurring source of tension related to clutter. This is very, very common.
- [01:21]
B
Yes. And I know there's tension in my relationship over clutter, so I'm one of those.
- [01:27]
A
Well, the first thing to point out is that there are differences among people and that's part of what leads to the conflict, which is people are very different in what level of orderliness they need to feel calm and energetic. Some people have a very, very high level of where they feel comfortable and other people, not so much. And then some people, like you, Elizabeth, are truly clutterblind. Explain what it is like to be clutterblind.
- [01:51]
B
Yeah, I just don't notice clutter. It doesn't bother me. Like when you said, is there anything that Adam, clutter wise, it bothers you. I'm like, no, I don't notice. It doesn't bother. If he wants to leave socks on the floor, I don't care on my side, I don't recognize it. The problem is he's not clutterblind.
- [02:12]
A
Well, and I think not that many people are clutterblind, but when they are, I think the key thing to recognize here is that what we're talking about is preferences. And so sometimes people get very caught up in like, this is the best way or this is the right way, or I'm right, you're wrong, kind of. This is what the best practice is when in fact we're talking about preferences. And so it's like, you might prefer it one way and I might prefer it a different way. And so we need, if we're gonna live together or work together, we need to create an environment where we both feel comfortable. That's very different from me saying, I'M right, you're wrong. Another way this comes up is with abundance lovers and simplicity lovers. So I'm a simplicity lover, and simplicity lovers like bare shelves, empty spaces, not much going on, a lot of beautiful emptiness. And then abundance lovers like profusion and choice and buzz and a lot on the walls and a lot going on. And to them, an environment that feels calm and peaceful and elegantly simple to me, they would say, feels stripped and sterile and like a timeshare.
- [03:16]
B
Right.
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A
And so again, it's not that one is better and one is worse or one creates creativity and one does. It's. It's like some people like simplicity and some people like abundance. And so it's really a question of preferences.
- [03:27]
B
Yeah. So as you're thinking about this conflict, there's two angles. There's something someone else does, like leaves their shoes around or leaves towels on the floor, and then there's something you do to them, I guess you would say.
- [03:41]
A
Right, right, right. Well, it's interesting because as you're saying, like, the kind of the silver lining of living with someone clutterblind is that nothing that you do will bug them.
- [03:49]
B
Yes.
- [03:50]
A
So they may be bugging you, but on the other hand, like, they're not complaining about you. So that's good with me. So Jamie and I both like it to be fairly orderly. So we agree on that. But we have different things we do that annoy each other. And I remember one time, this was back when I was still eating sugar free popsicles, which I ate constantly at that time. And I would leave the sticks around, kind of like I'd be reading and eating a popsicle. And then I would just put the stick on a coffee table. And then one day Jamie said to me, very nicely, very calmly, kind of this, like, oh, I'm just making this observation. He said, you know how you hear about how some people really hate it when somebody leaves the cap off the toothpaste? That's how I feel about popsicle sticks. And I was like, okay, message received. And I did a much better job of dealing with my popsicle sticks because that was something I did that bothered him. But then there's stuff that he does that bothers me. And so part of it is, how do we acknowledge how we could do a better job to make somebody else more comfortable in a space.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah. So in the spirit of Valentine's Day, you can ask yourself, what can you do to reduce conflict? Like, can you set up surroundings so it's more convenient to keep things clear, like add a hook for Your coat. If someone always leaves their coat, you know, like, on the hall floor when they come in, adding more trash cans, by the way, is always a solution.
- [05:14]
A
You're a big fan of adding trash cans. Well, listen, it's interesting because a while back, you gave yourself a demerit for having a very messy closet. And you said that it didn't bother you, but it bothered Adam. And several people said, put a door in your closet, and it's sort of like, you don't have to do anything different. You just have to hide it. Because Adam doesn't care about your messiness as the messiness. He just doesn't like to look at it. So that's a good example of how sometimes you can reduce conflict not by changing your behavior, but just by changing the situation or by doing something like putting up a hook. That just makes it so much easier for somebody to do something that they're more likely to do it. It's the whole classic thing of, like, you put the bowl on the chest of drawers in the hallway, and then hopefully somebody puts their keys in there. I was also thinking a way to reduce conflict, potentially. This is whimsy. If you could get the person to do it with you is if you swapped peeves. Like, if you said, well, if Jamie said to me, well, my pet peeve is Popsicle sticks. And I said, well, my pet peeve is leaving chargers all around the house. Maybe, you know, I'll swap my popsicle sticks for your charger. I don't know if everybody would play along at that, but I do think it would be a funny way to bring it up at least.
- [06:28]
B
I wonder if I could do that with Adam. But not a clutter thing. Like, I'll keep my closet floor clear if you'll be as concerned as I am about being on time to the airport, because that's my issue.
- [06:42]
A
That's your issue. Well, that's interesting. Okay, float that. Tell us how it goes.
- [06:46]
B
Maybe I will.
- [06:48]
A
Another thing is about reducing conflict. Looking for ways to reduce conflict is in episode 52. We talked about the try this at home of asking what happens if I ignore this? What if you just decide, you know what, it's fine. I'm just going to decide that. It doesn't matter to me. This is something I think with children comes up a lot because it's like, do they need to make their bed or do they need to clean up their room? I mean, maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Maybe you have a lot of conflict with a child that you don't really need to be having. Yeah.
- [07:20]
B
And I think a lot of people feel they need to train their kid right to make their bed or clean their room. And while it's true you want them to contribute to household, you know, orderliness, you want them to put their dishes in the dishwasher and throw away trash and all that kind of thing, if you come down too hard like on the bedroom, it could have the reverse effect. And when they're older, they might never make their bed and never pick up their clothes.
- [07:47]
A
Yes, yes. And finally, don't tell people how to do their chores because if you tell them that they're doing it wrong, they will decide, okay, you do it your way.
- [07:57]
B
Good point.
- [08:00]
A
So let us know if you do try this at home and confront a clutter related conflict in your relationship. We want to hear what worked. Let us know on Instagram, Facebook threads or drop us an email@podcastretchenrubin.com up next, we have a four tendencies tip that can make clutter conflict easier to navigate. And we'll answer a listener question about what to do when an adult child moves back home and exits. Expectations don't quite match reality. But first, this break. For Mother's Day. I have definitely given the classic gift of flowers, but the thing about flowers is they look great for a few days and then they're gone. And sometimes you feel like you want to give somebody something that's going to last longer. And a terrific gift to give is aura frames. This really feels like an upgrade because instead of something that fades, it's something that keeps those memories present every day.
- [08:59]
B
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- [10:07]
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- [11:03]
B
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- [11:25]
A
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- [11:52]
B
Now let's talk about a four tendencies tip.
- [11:56]
A
Yes. Now continuing with this theme of clutter and relationships. Now if you are experiencing a conflict because someone is not doing what you believe is their part in terms of clutter clearing, one thing that can really help is is to consider their tendency. And we've talked about the tendencies many times and if you want to take the quiz to find out your tendency, go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com and I'll also post a link to kind of an overview if you don't know about the tendencies. But for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume that people are up to speed with the tendencies.
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B
Yes. So Gretch, start with upholders.
- [12:34]
A
Yeah. Now Upholders do best when expectations are very explicit, when there are kind of clear, agreed upon rules. And so if you feel like someone's an upholder and they're not doing their part, it may be that they've just decided that this is neither an inner nor outer expectation that they feel like they need to observe, and so they don't do it. And so you want to have a conversation and to explain why you think it should be done and come to an agreement about it, because it's, it may be that you just have different understandings of what should be expected of a person in a situation.
- [13:10]
B
What about questioners?
- [13:12]
A
Okay, so here's the thing to remember about questioners. They want reasons and they don't like anything arbitrary. So if you ask them to do something and your reason is basically because I say so, because I want it done, because we have to, these aren't good reasons for questioners. And so if you're gonna ask them to do something, kind of explain why it needs to be done and when it needs to be done. Because let's say you say to your sweetheart, hey, listen, we need to clean out the basement this weekend. Your sweetheart could think, why? Why should we clean out the basement? We never use the basement. Why do we have to do it this weekend? Why should I listen to you? And if you said, hey, listen, your family's coming over next Saturday, and if we clean out the basement before they come, the kids can play in the basement and the adults can have more adult time away from all the cacophony of the children. But we're going to be away on Sunday, so we need to do it this Saturday so that we're ready for when your family comes. That is, why are we doing it? Why are we doing it at a particular time? And why do you care? And it's like, okay, that makes sense. And questioners are interested in efficiency. So if you want to talk to them about, like, is there a way we can make this more efficient? They might be very interested in that. They're also usually very interested in fairness, but they do like facts. So if you feel like the facts are on your side, you might want to write down what you're doing, what your partner is doing, and why you think maybe that should be rejiggered.
- [14:39]
B
Typical question or thing would be, why do we make the bed if we just unmake it every night?
- [14:44]
A
I mean, that is a legit question. You know what I mean? It's like, that is true. That is the situation. To give you an Illustration of how this plays out. I have a friend who's a questioner, and she's married to an upholder. And he said to her, hey, you know, I really want you to keep the kitchen cabinet doors and drawers closed. So let's make a rule that if you come into the kitchen, we'll all close the drawers and doors. And she said, why should I? And he said, well, because I like it that way. And she's like, well, I don't care. And he said, okay, well, why don't you make a rule? And I'll make a rule. So I'll make the rule about the doors of the cat and the drawers, and you make a rule about something you care about. And she said, I don't want to make rules for you. Like you. You follow your own rules and I'll follow my rules. And I was like, that's exactly upholder versus question. He's like, let's throw some rules at this. And she's like, well, why should we? So that's how. That's funny.
- [15:33]
B
And of course, Gretch Obligers, you know, we are the ones who need outer accountability.
- [15:38]
A
Yes. Now, if you're talking about, like a sweetheart relationship, remember that sweethearts often don't make good outer accountability. They're too close, they're too inner. So if it's not working to hold your partner accountable yourself, you might need to find a different kind of accountability. Sometimes charts work, sometimes scheduling work, sometimes like, everybody in the household doing charts at the same time. So it's sort of like there's that peer pressure. This is the time when we clean the house thinking about a duty to be a role model, duty to be to the future, self keeping the house nice for others. I have to say, like, as an upholder, when somebody said, oh, I feel like I have to keep it nice for other people, I'm kind of like, well, you should just do it for yourself. But for upholders, that's actually a helpful thing to think about. But here is the thing. Obliger rebellion. Make sure you are showing appreciation for what the Obliger is doing. Make sure that you are doing your share and you are not free riding off the efforts of the Obliger. Help that Obliger take vacations, because this is a place where Obliger rebellion often kicks in. I've heard from many Obligers, like, during this pandemic period, when they're like, oh, one day I just decided, I'm not cooking for you people anymore. Yeah, I have, too. And here's something else sometimes with the other tendencies. Like, let's say the obliger is like, no one helps me. And I say, well, tell the kids to help you. The kids are supposed to help. Make the kids help. It's work to make kids help. It's work to get to nudge and nag kids to do chores that they are supposed to do. That is work. And so to tell the obliger, well, you either have to do the work of nudging and reminding or you have to do the work yourself. That's. You should consider the nudging and nagging to be a chore on its own.
- [17:23]
B
Yes. I would propose it's more work to get a kid to do something than to do it yourself.
- [17:29]
A
100%. Absolutely. Now that you say that, absolutely, that's true. And that's why a lot of times we end up doing stuff.
- [17:35]
B
Yes.
- [17:35]
A
You know, because you're just like, it's just easier to do it myself. But then in the end, it's just like, that's how you. That's how you end up with Obliger rebellion right there.
- [17:43]
B
Okay, Gretch, what about rebels? Because you could imagine that some rebels just would be like, forget it. I'm not worrying about any sort of clutter.
- [17:51]
A
Well, again, with rebels, you want to think about identity, freedom, and choice. So it's their identity. So it might be their identity of, like, I'm a hospitable person who loves a beautiful house and that's part of my ident. You could think about your identity as like a responsible parent or a reliable partner, because often, you know, rebels will choose to do something out of love for you. And so you can say like, you know, I know it. Maybe it seems like a silly thing, but these popsicle sticks are just really, really grating on my nerves. And it would really make a big difference to me if you would throw them away. And it's like, okay, well, I could choose to do that out of love for you. But remember, the nagging, the reminding, the helpful reminders. This can often set up the spirit of resistance. So you want to be very care with rebels that you fit it into the rebel tendency with identity, freedom, choice, love, not. You have to. You must. This is the rule. You know, I'm telling you, I'm reminding you because that tends to ignite the spirit of resistance.
- [18:49]
B
And then, Gretch, one thing just to remember in all of this is that we all deal with negative emotions differently.
- [18:56]
A
This is a really, really important point because it comes up a lot with how people feel about clutter. And we've seen this during the pandemic. Like some people when they get stressed out, they want things to be more orderly. And I think that that's a very upholder thing. Upholders often will comfort themselves by being really leaning into their routines and their expectations for themselves. To an upholder, that feels comforting, whereas to like other tendencies. Sometimes it feels more comforting to like, I'm going to loosen things up, I'm going to lighten my expectations, I'm going to take it easy on myself. And so you could see a situation where one person's trying to manage their anxiety by making everything extremely orderly and another person's trying to manage their anxiety by kind of like loosening up. And then that would amplify conflict not because of anything having to do with the relationship, but just because it's related to different people's coping strategies. And so once you make that explicit, I think then you can much more easily talk about it rather than feeling like you don't care about what I need or you're always on my case or I don't understand why this is a big deal. That's a very difficult kind of conversation to have calmly.
- [20:05]
B
Yeah, it's always good to remember that it's not about you. It's usually just about that person. They're not doing anything to try to bother you.
- [20:16]
A
They're not going out of their way to. Yes, yes. Again I will post links to a brief description of the four tendencies in the show notes and you can take the quiz atquiz Gretchen rubin.com and now for listener question.
- [20:33]
B
Yes, this week's question comes from Jonathan. He says, I'm submitting a question from me and my wife regarding our 25 year old son. He has moved back home with us while he looks for a job, which is very responsible. And he's a terrific person. We love getting this chance to have him back living with us, except for one thing. He's so messy. He was messy as a child, but we stayed on top of him all the time and figured he would have outgrown it by now. But he's exactly the way he was when he was 10 years old. The two of us are naturally tidy and feel stressed out when things are always in a mess. We really don't think that our expectations are unreasonable. We don't care how he keeps his own room, just the spaces we share. We've talked about house rules, why we find it uncomfortable to live in a mess and why we feel like he's being very disrespectful and inconsiderate. He seems to sincerely want to do a better job and will briefly improve. But after a few days, we come home to find that every kitchen cabinet door is open and his stuff is spread out on every surface. Any suggestions?
- [21:35]
A
Well, first of all, I would love to hear from listeners if people have solutions to this, because different levels of comfort with clutter is a major source of household conflict and work conflict. And one of the things, of course, I always think, well, do a four tendencies check. Is he a questioner who's thinking like, this isn't an efficient use of my time. Why should I make my bed if I just unmake it? Or rebel who's like, I don't want to follow the rules. But this guy doesn't really sound like a questioner. Rebel. It doesn't seem like he's saying, I don't want to be told what to do. And it doesn't sound like he's saying, this doesn't make sense. It sounds like he's trying to do it and then it's not sticking. It's my reading.
- [22:14]
B
Yes. Which might mean he's clutterblind, Gretchen. Which, you know, I'm clutterblind. I could walk into a kitchen and all the doors were open and I wouldn't even notice.
- [22:23]
A
Yes. And I think it's really worth noting that some people truly are clutterblind. So they just don't see it. And you might say, but don't you feel so much better when everything's put away? And they might say, like, you, Elizabeth, you're sort of like, well, yes, on balance, but not really. Not the way it affects other people. And so what's good to know about this is that it, even if it's still a point of conflict, it isn't about him being disrespectful or inconsiderate. It's not coming from that place. It's just coming from, some people don't have a sense of direction, and some people don't have a sense of time. And some people don't have a sense of, hey, let's close every drawer when we open it. It's not a lack of consideration. And I think that changes the way that it feels.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah. So if they want to try to do things to help their son along, I know one thing you found useful is using hooks instead of hangers.
- [23:15]
A
So one thing is to really try to lower the bar and make things as simple as possible, because maybe that will make it that much easier for him to do it. So, yeah, in my family, I found we were throwing coats everywhere and I was doing it too, but we put up hooks and it's just that much more convenient to use a hook rather than a hanger. And it made a really big difference. One thing that at least bothers me in a household is all the shoes by the front door. They're just scattered and a lot of people just sort of walk out of their shoes so they're just feel like they're all over the place. So you might get a bin and put it by the front door and it's like just dump it in the bin. So it's still out and it's pretty convenient, but it looks more organized. So those little things can make it feel just for the couple who's feeling visually overwhelmed, that might make it feel more comfortable and it might make it. If you find those ways to make it easier, he might find it easier to stick to the guidelines.
- [24:05]
B
Yeah. And now this won't help him be less messy, but it might help the couple, which is to remember this is temporary.
- [24:13]
A
Right. The things that go wrong often make the best memories. This sounds like a temporary situation. There are many good things about having him at home. So maybe you just want to be like, okay, this is making us bonkers, but he'll be out in a couple months and we'll laugh about this. We're just not going to have it be a constant source of conflict. We're just going to decide to sort of put up with it. Or another thing you can do is remind him to fix it. And so maybe if he has to be the one, if you say, okay, oh, will you come into the kitchen? Because I see that it's all a mess, would you come clear it up? Maybe if he's the one doing that, that might help him remember because it's a consequence. I don't know. Elizabeth, what do you think? Would that help somebody?
- [24:54]
B
I think it's hard to say. It might. Again, when you're clutterblind, though, you don't notice it. So that's the hard thing. I would say if they really care and they want to go the opposite of just deciding to put up with it, they could also just issue an ultimatum, high stakes ultimatum, which either you have to clean up after yourself or move out. And if anything is going to cause him to see that clutter and act, it might be that. But then you have to be willing to follow through.
- [25:24]
A
Of course. Yeah. And maybe they don't want to you know what I mean? Maybe they're like, oh, it is nice. So, anyway. Well, listeners, this is a tricky situation. If you're clutterblind, what works for you? If you're interested, my book Outer Order Inner Calm has all kinds of things, like use hooks instead of hangers. Has all kinds of easy hacks to try to make it easier to keep clutter under control. So there might be some useful things there. Elizabeth, you've really. I mean, I will say this as your sister. You used to be much messier. You are much better now. And so maybe it's just you've worked on it for a long time to try to raise your awareness.
- [25:57]
B
Well, I try, but I have to say, my husband Adam would disagree with you. He has a much higher bar. But I try.
- [26:03]
A
But I have a much better sense of the arc.
- [26:06]
B
That's true. Coming up, we'll share one last tip for resolving clutter conflict in your home, especially if you feel like you've tried everything. It draws on a phenomenon called the endowment effect and may explain why other people have a hard time letting go of things that don't seem important to you. But first, this break. I have had those stretches where my hair just feels worn out. Heat styling color, even tight ponytails, and it starts to look dull and even a little frizzy. Most products just smooth things over. It looks better for a minute, but the damage is still there. Well, Gretch, those days are over with K18's molecular repair mask. I have it in my hair at this very moment.
- [27:01]
A
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- [27:19]
B
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- [27:37]
A
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- [27:47]
C
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- [29:23]
A
I've been trying to say yes more to little adventures. Nothing huge. Just getting out of the routine and going somewhere different for the day. And it really makes you appreciate having a car that feels solid and comfortable, where you're not thinking about the drive, you're just focused on where you're going. That's what stood out to me about the Defender. It has that rugged design, but it also feels really thoughtful inside. And I like that there's a full lineup from the two door 90 to the 110 and the 130 with seating for up to eight. So it really fits different kinds of plans.
- [29:56]
B
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- [30:29]
A
research shows that people experience a psychological phenomenon that is called the Endowment effect, which means that we value things more once we own them. That means like if there's like some kind of, you know, mug that's out in the world, you're not going to passionately want it. But once it's in your house, once you own it, you will endow it with extra meaning. And so once that thing's in your house, it's going to be a lot harder to get it out again. It will gain in value simply because you own it.
- [30:58]
B
And so what's the bad thing about that?
- [31:01]
A
Okay, so what that means, the significance of that is to think before you accept something. Before you like accept a freebie, or somebody gives you swag at a conference, or like somebody is gonna give you a hand me down. Or there's like a great sale and there's a great deal on something, really press yourself to say, do I really need this thing? Do I really love this thing? Because it's like some hand me down toy. Or like when my mother in law was gonna give me this lamp, you're sort of tempted to just take it. But if you don't need it, don't take it. Because once you take it, it's gonna be like a whole extra layer of, you know, complication to manage.
- [31:37]
B
I get it. So then it's like in five months, you know, ask yourself, in five months, do I want to be struggling with this item? It's so funny you mention a mug because, you know, I love mugs. But like, for instance, we have a mug that's from Gelson's, which is the grocery store right next to us, and some anniversary of Gelson's, they were giving out mugs and I took one. And now when I try to like clean out my mug shelf, I'm like, well, I can't possibly get rid of this Gelson's mug. This is our grocery store. Grocery store. It's like, who cares? You know, why is this sentimental to me?
- [32:12]
A
Right?
- [32:12]
B
But because I, if I had never taken it, it's not like I would be missing my Gelson's.
- [32:17]
A
No, you're not going to go out and buy a Gelson's mug.
- [32:19]
B
No. But because I put it on the shelf, I now cannot bring myself to get rid of it.
- [32:25]
A
Yes, and this is a perfect example of the kind of the next consequences, which is even if you manage to convince yourself that you don't want it anymore, which takes a little bit of work sometimes, even if you want to get rid of it, you have to figure out how to do it, because it's a perfectly good mug. What do you do with a perfectly good mug? Like, are you going to take it to the thrift store? Are you Going to find somebody in your life who needs a mug? Are you going to take it to the office because they need a mug? It's like, now you're going to have to figure out the person or the place or the organization to give it to, and that's a pain. Or if you're going to recycle it. Sometimes it's kind of hard to figure out how to recycle something or how to dispose of it properly. It's often not that easy, like, to figure out how to divest ourselves of our stuff, even if we've decided that we want to. And even deciding that we want to, that is hard. So you're just opening yourself up for a lot of complications for things that you may never really have wanted in the first place.
- [33:17]
B
So, Gretchen, how can we combat the endowment effect once we own something? Because I'm sure a lot of us have things that, you know, we didn't hear this, try this at home. And so we brought these things into our home. How can we combat it, it and overcome it?
- [33:33]
A
Well, the way to overcome it is to not let it in is to really fight it off at the source. And so one thing you can do is you can say, if I didn't already own this possession, would I buy it? And here's a great example. So I love, love, love a tote bag. I have so many tote bags, and I probably have 15 or 20 tote bags. And it was really, really, really hard for me to get down to that view because I'm like, each one is special and different. And you and I were together and we got a really great tote bag, and I was like, literally, like, looking in the instructions, are we allowed to take these tote bags? Yes. I took it home and then I immediately gave it away because I'm like, who am I kidding? I don't need another tote bag. Why? But I didn't even just, like, absentmindedly bring it home. I purposefully brought it home. And then I'm like, the last thing I need in the world is another tote bag.
- [34:16]
B
Well, Gretchen, you know what's funny about that is at the time when you were figuring out if we were allowed to take the tote bag, I thought to myself, it's so funny that Gretchen wants this tote bag. I'm surprised because her thing is, don't take free stuff. And she's always saying she has too many tote bags. It's so interesting that she loves this tote bag so much that she's like, Scouring through these papers to see if we're allowed to take it. And so it's funny that that happened. I didn't say anything because I figured, well, Gretchen knows what she wants. If she wants this tote bag, she wants it.
- [34:53]
A
Clearly.
- [34:54]
B
Because I even thought for me, should I take this? Because I don't really need it. But since you took it, I thought, well, this is a high item. Gretchen's taking it. I'm going to take it.
- [35:03]
A
Clearly, if you see either of us out in the world and there's a tote bag anywhere in the vicinity, intervene and say, yes, you too, do not take the tote. Put down the tote bag.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah.
- [35:18]
A
So one thing is, if I didn't own this, would I bought it? Would I have ever, even for a second? Like if we'd wandered into a gift shop and they were like, these are for sale for $2. Would I bought it? No way. No way. Would never. I would have been like, last thing I need is a tote bag. A lot of times the freeness of something or if something's a really good deal that can make you reach out for things that you wouldn't otherwise take and then you own them. The other thing is when you kind of start accidentally stockpiling. And this is when this is a very frustrating category of things because they're very useful things, but they keep coming to you and you can't really use them. And yet they don't. They're not trash. So it's something like we get rubber bands around our newspapers in the morning because we're such old fashioned people, we still get newspapers. Well, we would have 2000 rubber bands by this point. But like what do you do with rubber bands or glass jars? It's like they're useful, but you can't use a hundred glass jars, ketchup packets, things like that. These are things where if you keep them, they start piling up and they're useful, but you can't use them.
- [36:20]
B
But only in small amounts. Like you only need so many rubber bands. 30 is probably plenty.
- [36:26]
A
3 is plenty.
- [36:27]
B
10 is probably enough. 5 might be enough.
- [36:30]
A
And then there's also accidental collections where you start keeping something cause it feels sort of cool, or there's a kind of completion or kind of a trophy quality to something and then they start feeling like a collection that's valuable. So I think of this with playbills. A lot people collect playbills because it sort of feels like, ooh, I went to the show. But then do you ever really look at the Playbills because they just sort of. They feel like, well, I have a whole collection. If you're the kind of person who go to a museum exhibition, you buy the book. I have friends who have the massive collections of these books. I mean, they clearly never look at them. To my eye, meaningless trophies that kids have piles of magazines. Like, you'd be like, I have a complete set of five years of magazines. But it's like they start to collect and there's kind of dissatisfaction that you get in adding to the collection. And then these are your things, so you endow them with this meaning, but there's no actual value in it because you don't. What are you going to do with it?
- [37:25]
B
It goes, Gretchen, to something in my life, which is swag. You know, I've talked on the podcast before about how I get all this swag from different shows. I work on hats, sweatshirts, shot glasses, you know, martini shakers, all sorts of things. And some of them I really want, but some of them I don't. Especially if it's not a show that I particularly emotionally attached to. But up until now, I have felt like I need to keep every single one of these things because it's like, well, I'm collecting all the swag from all these shows, but I really don't need it. So I'm going to allow myself to jettison out of my life all of the show swag that I don't want. Now, it goes without saying that anything that says the fix on it, I will be keeping for life. But there are certain other things that, you know, I can let go of.
- [38:19]
A
Well, they're mementos of accomplishment and kind of their milestone markers because, like, this was the time when I worked on this show. But you don't need all of it. You know, you can pick and choose and let the other things go, because other people probably would find these, like, wildly cool and exciting to have. So let them go out into the world. We hope this episode made you feel happier. When it comes to clutter conflict, it can help to keep one last thing in mind. Remember love when your parents are driving you bonkers because they've kept every piece of your schoolwork, or when you're driving yourself bonkers because you can't toss your husband's ragged college T shirts. Remember, all this junk is an expression of love, and that's part of what makes clutter clearing difficult. What we own feels more valuable because of what it represents. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you to our producer, Chuck. The best time to start a happiness project was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.