Live from Elizabeth’s Cluttered Closet!

Summary

Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Episode: Live from Elizabeth’s Cluttered Closet!
Date: May 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special revisited episode, Gretchen Rubin and her sister/cohost Elizabeth Craft take listeners back to an earlier, much-requested episode where Gretchen helps Elizabeth declutter her (famously overstuffed) closet—live and in real time. The sisters use this process to explore practical happiness strategies around organization, habit formation, and the psychological impact of outer order. Their relaxed, humorous, sisterly banter makes the episode both useful and entertaining, offering actionable tips along with honest reflections on what works and what doesn’t when it comes to clearing clutter.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Why Decluttering Matters

• Gretchen asserts that “outer order contributes to inner calm and inner self-command” (07:00), even though it might seem like a messy closet shouldn’t be a big deal.
• The feeling of control gained from organizing (even small areas) can ripple into larger areas of life.

2. Before You Start: Plan Your Giveaways

• The duo stresses the importance of deciding before you begin where giveaways will go. Knowing there’s a good home makes it easier to let go.
  • Quote: “It’s a lot easier to let go of things when you know that they’re going to a good home.” – Gretchen (06:00)
• In this case, Elizabeth donates to Vietnam Vets, as they provide convenient pickups.

3. Practical Decluttering Steps in Action

• Sort by Category: Clothes, shoes, medical supplies, sentimental items, etc.
• Identify, Containerize, and Relocate: Place like items together, use containers, and consider if another space suits them better.
  • Diabetes supplies and nursing items were rounded up and discussed for the best storage location (09:00–11:30).
• Evaluate Sentimental Clutter: The “I should use this” pile, and how it creates invisible clutter.
  • Quote: “If you say I could use this or I should use this, it means you don’t use this.” – Gretchen (10:21)
• Avoid Floor Storage: Keeping floors clear feels better visually and practically.

4. Handling Sentimental & “One Day I Might Need This” Items

• The sisters confront items that inspire guilt or nostalgia, e.g., wedding keepsakes or “pounds-away” clothing.
• Elizabeth shares regret over decluttering a cherished nightshirt in the past, cautioning listeners to avoid getting swept up in the decluttering “fever” (12:07–13:34).
  • Quote: “Don’t give it up before you have its replacement…then I was just without.” – Elizabeth (13:29)
• Gretchen recommends deliberation and only letting go of genuinely unused, unloved items.

5. Clutter-Clearing Tips & Philosophies

• Designate Exact Places:
  Assign everything a specific “home” in the closet, which makes both finding and putting away easier and more satisfying.
  • Quote: “If you have a very specific place for things, it’s easier to find them, but it’s also weirdly more satisfying to put them away because you have that feeling of like hitting a mark.” – Gretchen (26:43)
• Don’t Over-Organize:
  Focus on reducing quantity before buying storage solutions.
  • Quote: “Don’t get organized. Get rid of everything.” – Gretchen (21:22)
• Don’t Keep “Future Self” Clothes:
  Avoid the trap of “pounds-away” shirts or items kept in hopes of future use—it’s usually discouraging (20:09).
• Be Wary of Leftover Organizational Gear:
  Keeping unused organizers or bins may just create more clutter.

6. Simplicity vs. Abundance: Know Your Style

• Are You a Simplicity Lover or Abundance Lover? (25:03)
  • Gretchen prefers few, beloved items, while Elizabeth likes having a variety but usually uses only a handful.
  • Both acknowledge that knowing your preference helps tailor decluttering efforts—abundance lovers should keep what gives them joy (and is visible), not just what fits someone else’s “minimalist” ideal.

7. Convenience Fuels Better Habits

• Example: Simply having a small trash can in the closet makes tossing packaging, tags, and receipts much easier (28:00).
  • Quote: “The tiniest bit of convenience will enormously change people’s behavior.” – Gretchen (28:18)

8. The Ripple Effect

• The transformation of one closet can uplift moods and inspire others—sometimes even inspiring spouses or family to tackle their own clutter (29:53).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gretchen, on sentimental clutter:
  “A warning sign is the ‘I could use this’ or ‘I should use this’… because if you say I could use this or I should use this, it means you don’t use this.” (10:21)
• Elizabeth, on regret after purging:
  “I gave up my…nightshirt, and I regretted it ever since because it was the only good nightshirt I had.” (12:14)
• On organization tactics:
  “Don’t get organized. Get rid of everything.” – Gretchen (21:22)
• On the happiness effect:
  “There’s something about just getting control of these little things that seems to make people feel more able to tackle the big things.” – Gretchen (28:58)
• Simplicity vs. Abundance:
  “An abundance of junk is not what we’re going for.” – Elizabeth (26:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Spring Cleaning Set-Up & Guest Dynamic – 00:58–03:11
• Historical Closet Stories & Past Clutter Disasters – 03:11–04:39
• Tour of Elizabeth’s Closet: Assessing the Case – 04:42–05:26
• Principles for Decluttering/Designating Recipients – 05:58–06:29
• Sentimental Items & Happiness Stumbling Blocks – 09:14–11:21
• Shoe Sorting Montage – 17:23–18:15
• The Lure and Pitfalls of Organizational Gear – 21:22–22:08
• Abundance vs. Simplicity Discussion – 25:03–26:43
• Convenience and the Power of a Trash Can – 28:00–28:54
• Reflections on Success & the Ripple Effect – 29:41–29:53
• Takeaway: The Power of Outer Order – 28:58–30:38

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Takeaways

• Clear, specific, and visible organization creates more daily happiness than expected.
• Knowing yourself—whether you thrive with simplicity or abundance—tailors the best organizing method for you.
• Convenience, pre-planned destinations for giveaways, and mindful pacing make the difference between sustainable tidying and purging regret.
• Decluttering can have cascading, positive effects on your whole environment and your mental state.

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Final Words:
Elizabeth feels happier with her newly managed closet and Gretchen reminds us:

“The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.” (30:42)

Transcript

[Gretchen Rubin]

Lemonade.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts why

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

did I search the Internet for answers

[Gretchen Rubin]

to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

in various stages of ooze.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I can clear my search history, but I could never unsee that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Don't go down the rabbit hole.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Healthcare just got less painful.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we're here for More Happier, a podcast where we get happier. Join us for some weekend listening. It's a looser vibe. Hey, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Hi, Gretchen.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Today, in honor of spring cleaning, we're revisiting an episode from 2015 that listeners have never stopped talking about. We still hear about it all the time, live from Elizabeth's cluttered closet. Elizabeth, we had so much fun with that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, we did, Gretchen. I think you had more fun than I did because you always get such a buzz from clearing the closet. I will say I could use it

[Gretchen Rubin]

again, but this is what I love, Elizabeth. Every time I come, we do it again. And I always enjoy it. And you give such a satisfying before and after because there's always so much to be done and it always looks so much better and I always enjoy it more than you do. It's so funny.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, well, last time we had nine bags that we cleared out.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, that was very satisfying. So in this episode, we talk about why you should designate a recipient for your giveaways before you start clearing. Why that's helpful. We talk about why it's helpful to store something in an exact place rather than in an approximate place, and why maybe you shouldn't get organized. Plus, there is the famous shoe sorting montage.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So here's the episode in all its glory.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast that gives you ideas and strategies for living a happier life. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who is usually in New York City, but today I'm in Los Angeles City, standing in the closet of my sister, the sage Elizabeth Craft.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Hi, Gretch. I'm both thrilled to see Gretchen, who's here for her better than before book tour, and slightly apprehensive for reasons that will very quickly become clear.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, Elizabeth is my habits guinea pig and one might conclude, innocent bystander, because today we are going to clean out her closet, which I have to say is one of my very favorite things that we do when we're together is clean out her closets. And. And she is an incredibly good sport to be doing this, not only because every time I come to her apartment, I insist on cleaning her closets. But also that with us is Andy Bowers and Mike, who's doing the sound. So we have four people standing in Elizabeth's bedroom. We are about to enter her closet.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. And I'll just bring up Gretchen, that this is not a dire situation, although it's needed. We've done this before. When I was moving apartments, Gretchen had to come out to an emergency trip from New York because to get me to move, I had so much stuff. I was completely out of control. And I mean, I'll let you say, sort of where you. Where that went.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right. Well, I mean, a highlight of that clutter clearing was when we were just about done, we thought, and I opened up the oven and discovered that Elizabeth had crammed the oven full of completely like this strange hodgepodge of stuff. We made like five trips to buy boxes. And then at the very. And under your bed, we discovered that you had neatly stored away all the boxes from the last time you moved. And I believe that we found mail that you had moved unopened, not just from one apartment, but from two apartments in New York.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It actually moved my lease from my old apartment in New York to like my third apartment in la. It was ridiculous. And then we filled the trash chute so we could no longer throw away trash. It was. The whole building was stacked up, although I did live on the first floor. So it was from the first floor.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, this to me is incredibly fun. And so I really do appreciate that Elizabeth is such a good sport. And it is true, from a historical perspective, this closet is nothing. And yet. And Elizabeth said, I wonder if there's enough clutter clearing to bother with. But I think that as I look around, I think I'm going to find plenty to do.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, so let's go to the closet and dive in.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So let me set the scene for our listeners. I will be eyes for you. As Laura said to Mary, so Elizabeth has a closet that by New York City standards is like, I would say is the size of a small studio apartment. It's definitely a walk in. She's got lots of shelves and unusual. Like a lot of people who are trying to clear clutter out of their closets really need space. But Elizabeth actually has. You have some part. Some of your shelves are empty. You have plenty of room on your rods because it's so big, it can hold a lot. So unlike some people, you're not looking for things just to get out to make space. But it's overwhelming visually because there's so much Stuff. And I think that I'm a lot of stuff on the floor. And I think that there's a lot of things that we can tackle that it's gonna make it just more pleasant.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So I can also just find stuff because I think part of it is I might have some shoes that I want to wear, but I forgot I have them, and they're impossible to see.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this is one of the things about clutter clearing is that a lot of times you feel like you have more when you have less, because you can find the things that you like more easily. And so, I mean, I have a friend where I helped her clean her closet. And her closet was so packed that she just kept wearing like the same 10 items, which she kept in a completely different, like draped over her bathtub. And she never went into her closet at all. So it was like she had almost no clothes. And then once she got her closet cleared out, then she wore a lot. She had a lot.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It looks like she'd been on a shopping street.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, you're right, because she had an active closet. So the first thing that we do, though, before anybody does clutter clearing, is what do you do with the stuff that you're gonna get rid of? So we have a trash bag here with the stuff that's just too nasty to give away. And then we have two big plastic boxes for the giveaways. And it's always good to know who you're gonna give the stuff to. Cause it's a lot easier to let go of things when you. When you know that they're going to a good home. So who would you give it to?

[Elizabeth Craft]

We've been giving our stuff to Vietnam vets because partly they'll pick up, which is nice and great. Cause and they pick up.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you're getting rid of a lot of stuff, it's good.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I just have to say, should we. For our producer Vike here, Gretch, move my slippers.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, yeah, we'll get. No, that's a very.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So, Gretch, before we actually start this, why am I even doing this? Why put myself through this humiliating.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Part of it is because it's fun for me. But also because this is the weird thing, is that for so many people say that outer order contributes to inner calm and inner self command. And more than it should, it just doesn't seem like having a messy closet should be any really big deal. And it seems trivial. And yet over and over people say that when they get control over their stuff, they feel more in control of their life. And, I mean, even though you don't necessarily look forward to this, don't you feel like once it's done, you do feel better?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. As you say, I'm always happy to see you go, but glad you are here.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right? Exactly. Exactly. So it's worth doing for that. So let's get started. Okay, we'll start here.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That hamper has a lot of stuff at the bottom that could be thrown out. So we should go.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Wait. What's the difference between your laundry and

[Elizabeth Craft]

your hamper that's, like, active? This is partly just a storage unit, partly a hamper.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. Because you seem to have multiple hampers with just piles of clothes in them.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, you know why? You had the thing to identify the problem, and I decided I didn't have enough laundry baskets, so now maybe I have too many.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's like, I can't even wrap my mind around that right now. Let's start with the easier stuff, and then we'll move on to what is actually in the hampers. But so some of that stuff is just clear.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Some of it's laundry, and underneath the laundry is other items, like old maternity clothes, things like that that I haven't thrown out.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. So we definitely need to tackle that. Okay. So one thing that I'm noticing is that there's a lot of, like, random containers of things. Like, what is this a container? It's a box that is kind of

[Elizabeth Craft]

all of my diabetes test strips that I need.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. So one thing. And then there are the boxes above it of diabetes stuff. And then I think we're not even going to go into the chest of drawers, but I peeked in one because I couldn't resist. And I think there's more diabetes stuff in there. Do you want to keep it here, or do you want to keep this? Like, I know you because I also looked around behind your back. You have room in, like, your laundry room closet to put all this stuff. Would you like to keep it there, or is it more convenient to keep it here because it's taking up a lot of space and it looks really messy.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I'm thinking we could use it. I have containers up there that maybe we could use.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right? Yeah. Because sometimes just putting something in a container just makes you feel more in control of it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Maybe Andy could reach for us.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is my main use around the house.

[Elizabeth Craft]

There we go.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, and what's. What's in there?

[Elizabeth Craft]

This is, like. I think this is stuff from, like, when I had Jack, who's five. I've got like, burp claws.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What is the. Okay, so this is like.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Like.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, this is stuff to pump, I think, for a.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Like, nursing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think this is all throwaway.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Or do you think we should give it away? You think people would want this whole thing of.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, but I think. Do you have to give this to your doctor?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Because.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, so this goes to your doctor.

[Elizabeth Craft]

All right, that's enough medical.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, so can I just say it's already looking better. Okay. What's this?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Those are hats, probably.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's good. You look cute.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That one shrunk. So you can toss that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, Toss that one. Okay.

[Elizabeth Craft]

This will keep.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And then you have all these bags.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That is sentimental.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That was a gift.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's like a. A bride from.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So where. I'm saying, eight years ago when you got married.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, eight years ago when I got married, someone gave me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's like a. It's like a zipper bag full of stuff that you've never touched.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, because it looks so good as. Like, this, I couldn't bring myself to use it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I tried this at home. Warning sign is the I could use this or I should use this. Because if you say I could use this or I should use this, it means you don't use this. So how can we. Do you want. Do you want to take everything apart and put the things so you'll actually use them or what? Because it's very cunning. I agree. It's like all these little things perfectly packed away and like, lotion and baby powder and ear swabs and hair bands. It's very cool. But you're not using it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You could give it to Eleanor, my daughter. She would play with it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Would she like it just like this with all the stuff in it?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, probably. Or. But then maybe I'm just taking your clutter and putting it in my house.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, well, let's put this in the maybe pile because there is good stuff. But you. So this is another. This is like a happiness stumbling block that happens in closets a lot. It's like something becomes invisible to you, so it's there, and it's there all the time, so you don't even notice it. So you don't take. You don't use it to its advantage, but you also don't get rid of it because you're just not even registering it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So this needs to be actively pondered.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Actively ponder. Okay, so we're gonna have an active pondering. Oh, and as I put that on the floor, I can't help but notice. Here's some More diabetes stuff.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, that's probably best. Just left there.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But here's another thing.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I want to just leave everything.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's where I come in. But another thing is that it's better not to use floors for storage. It just. You feel better when your floors are clear.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So do we want to. Do you want to look at shoes? Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Throw away some shoes because we're clearing it. Maybe we're doing the floor. This is feeling very subtle. And what is this bag of stuff?

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's a bag of giveaway that I've already started.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Excellent. Good work. Okay, another point I should make. Like when you said the act of pondering. A lot of times if you think about something, then by the time you're done, you're ready to let it go.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I will say, though, because, Greg, you can get very aggressive. And the last time we did this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, no.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Did I persuade you? I gave up my. I had this dkny, like, T shirt fabric night shirt, and I gave it up and I regretted it ever since because it was the only good night shirt I had.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, let me learn from that. Like, so why did I persuade you? Was I just being. Was I telling you that it didn't look good? Did you like, why? What was happening?

[Elizabeth Craft]

I think I got caught up. I mean, I got caught up.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You got the fever.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I got the fever. And I'd had it for so long because I'd had it like six years, I started thinking, well, I shouldn't have this even if I use it all the time. So it's a lesson. Like, it's okay to just keep using something for another five years if it's serving its purpose in a perfectly fine way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Except, though, then there is the problem that you have, at least I have, where sometimes you love something and wear it even though you know you should not. Like, it's really nasty and you really should not be wearing it.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's possible that night shirt fell into that category.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, I'm having a dim recollection

[Elizabeth Craft]

and that, but I still miss it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Okay. But just remember to really think about. If you really do wear. Use something actively, then you should give it a special thought before you give it up. Because it's not like something that you never use or at least don't give

[Elizabeth Craft]

it up before you have its replacement. Like, I didn't have an equivalent night shirt. So then I was just without.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Then you were without. Okay, that's good. So don't leave a gap. Now for a quick ad break. Summer's coming up. And I realize I want to actually enjoy planning a trip, not sit there wondering if I should be spending the money at all.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Right. That feeling of can I afford this? Kind of takes the fun out of it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth Craft]

I'm gonna give up those tennis shoes now. I'm gonna give up these Birkenstocks because they just don't really.

[Gretchen Rubin]

These are blue.

[Elizabeth Craft]

We should take the pad out, though, to give them away.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, we should give these away because they're in really good shape.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Like, I have these heels that are slightly. These were the shoes I wore to my rehearsal dinner, which were always too small. But I will never.

[Gretchen Rubin]

These are really. What do you call that kind of heel? It's like a wedgie.

[Elizabeth Craft]

They're like J. Crew. These are shoes that I. Oh, these are fancy.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I know.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Now, those are sentimental.

[Gretchen Rubin]

These, I spotted. What is up with these?

[Elizabeth Craft]

These are like ruby red slippers.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, these are what they are. I mean, bright red, sparkly glitter. My daughter Eleanor had this exact pair of shoes when she was four years old. Fit.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I've never worn them once, but Adam bought them for me right when we started dating. So, again, I can't give those. So those stay in the box.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's getting better. It's getting better.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What is this? Another hamper?

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's for my dry cleaning and some storage, but that's where I put dry cleaning.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. And so, Elizabeth, one thing I'm seeing is that you have a lot of nice hangers here all together. They're very well organized, so that's good. I would shove them all down to the end so they're out of your way. Yeah. But one thing so that, and these are like the kind of hangers that you get when you buy something. They're not the kind of, they're not like super fancy matching hangers. Like if you buy hangers, which I can never, as an underbuyer, I could never buy a hanger. But I noticed that in your clothes, amongst your clothes, you have a lot of hangers that came from the dry cleaner. And the weird thing about hangers is they actually, even if there's nothing on them, they take up a surprising amount of room. So let's just go through and take out the dry cleaner hangers while you're looking. One of the things that's helpful about having someone else with you is that first of all, they can sometimes say like, that is just not gonna look good. Like, I can just tell. I remember I was one time help my mother in law cleaner closet and she held up this shirt and was like, this is a perfectly good shirt. And I was like, judy, that is the ugliest shirt that I have ever seen in my life. It was mustard yellow, it had gigantic paisleys on it and it had one of those floppy bows. You know, it was really big. And I was just like, it sounds

[Elizabeth Craft]

like something Murphy Brown.

[Gretchen Rubin]

No, I am. But worse. I mean beyond it almost. You felt like you should frame it and put it on the wall. And my mother in law is very beautiful. And I was just like, I would rip this off your body if I saw it because like why would you wear this? And so. And she had to start laughing and throw it away. So sometimes you just need someone to say to you, you know, this is not something that a person can wear. Oh, I love these shorts.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, those are good.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. How about this?

[Elizabeth Craft]

And this? This was the. No, that's, that I'll wear.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, but you saw.

[Elizabeth Craft]

This was misguided.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, but can I just say, this still has tags on it. Why does it still have tags on it if you're gonna wear it?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Because it's a £5 away shirt. I'm £5 away from that shirt. Being able to wear that shirt, which I will get to. I know, I know. I try never to do.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, that's just not a good. That's not a good. It's, it's, it does. It's not a helpful pattern.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, so that's a good tip.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, that's a shopping tip. That's a shopping tip. Which is don't buy in anticipation of losing your future body. It's hard to say what category we've moved on to in Elizabeth's closet. It seems to be a category of purses, bags, and hats.

[Elizabeth Craft]

All right, so I'm looking through.

[Gretchen Rubin]

No, wait.

[Elizabeth Craft]

What is that? This, I think, is. Last time you were here, we put purses in bags.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, right. I remember that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Of course, the problem is that I've never gone into the bag.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, let's. Okay, you know what purse?

[Elizabeth Craft]

We can. We can give that. Mom gave me that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'll take that. I will take that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

All right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is a beautiful red leather. Kind of like going to a fancy party bag. I don't have anything like this, and it's big enough to have a cell phone, so. Okay.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I think I should get rid of this plastic.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, it's taking up too much room. And it's not.

[Elizabeth Craft]

This was a bag I was putting other purses in, but as long as they're in there, I never look at the purses.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, but. So this is. That's an important clutter clearing thing. Sometimes people get really into just the gear of organizing, and you just have to make sure that you don't spend all your time buying doodads to help you get organized or jam more stuff into place. And in fact, one of the first things when people say to me, like, oh, I want to get organized, I say, don't get organized. Get rid of everything. You don't remember when we did that with your files, when you moved the last time? You're like, I'm going to organize all my files. And I was like, let's throw away everything that you don't need. And then you didn't even need a filing system because you basically threw away all the paperwork.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You didn't need any of it. So it's like, don't get organized. Get rid of everything. And then you may not need an organizing system. So actually, we put all your bags into a bag, and the bag actually hindered you using the bag. So it was a bag.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So here we are years later. Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, my gosh. It's looking so much better in here. Look at all this space.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Now, time for a quick break,

[Elizabeth Craft]

Guys. We gotta talk about your secret late night Internet searches. You know the ones. Bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it, and it never works. Thankfully, there's Amazon Health AI.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24. 7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts why

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

did I search the Internet for answers

[Gretchen Rubin]

to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

in various stages of ooze.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Don't go down the rabbit hole.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Healthcare just got less painful.

[Julie Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, it's Julie, Louis Dreyfus from Wiser Than Me, et cetera. Just popping in with a little reality check. Food waste shouldn't exist. There is no reason that our leftovers should end up in a landfill. But that's the final destination for about a third of the food we grow. Our ancestors would be confused. They use their food scraps as compost or as animal feed or in weird soups. All the stuff we did before garbage was invented. But composting is hard work. Living with a bucket of rotten food on your counter is gross. Most food goes in the trash because it's easy. And these days, we'll take any easy we can get. But now there's something easier. Drop your scraps in a mill food recycler. It looks like a kitchen bin and an iPhone had a baby. It takes nearly anything, even meat and bones. It works automatically. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never smells. When you finally empty it, you've got these nutrient rich grounds. Use them in your garden, pour them in your green bin, or have Mill get them to a small farm so the food you don't eat can help grow the food you do. Just like it should be. It's why I own a mill, why I invest in mill, and why I'm still obsessed with my mill. If you want to get obsessed too, go to mill.com wiser to get $75 off. That's mill.com wiser for $75 off.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So Elizabeth, as I'm looking around, I'm thinking of a know yourself better question, which is, are you a simplicity lover or an abundance lover? Because like, I'm a simplicity lover and I remember mom telling me something about myself that was hugely helpful when she, she was saying, with clothes, you like to have very few choices and wear them all the time. And that's absolutely true. I get very overwhelmed if I have too many choices. But then some people love choices. They like, they like abundance, they like having a lot of choices. And so I can't really tell like as much as I know you do you like abundance or simplicity?

[Elizabeth Craft]

I Think I like abundance, but I only use a few items. But I like having them. And like, as I've said to you before, sometimes even if I just want something in tissue paper in my drawer, even if I know I'll never use it, I enjoy having it there. For some reason it makes. When I see it, it gives me a little happiness boost.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But that's another reason to keep things relatively clear. Because then you see them and you know that you have them even if you're not. Because just because something isn't used doesn't mean it's useless. So you're right. If you love seeing something there, even if you never get to wear that pair of shoes or use that handbag, it can give you pleasure if you can see it. But if you just forget you even have it, then you might as well.

[Elizabeth Craft]

There's no point.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Why is it taking up any space? So, but if you are. But I think sometimes simplicity lovers and like want to tell abundance lovers they should get rid of everything because that's sort of my impulse. But you're right, you shouldn't. If that's not. If that doesn't, if that doesn't work for you, keep a lot of profusion, but only keep the things that you really like so that you're not burdened with a bunch of stuff that you'd never wear that's old and gross or, you know, so it's all about an

[Elizabeth Craft]

abundance of junk is not what we're going for.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, you want an abundance of a feeling of plenty. So a happiness stumbling block is you can't find things. And so one of the things that I find to be really helpful is to put things away in an exact place because it seems like I'll just put it in my closet. But if you have like a very specific place for things, then it's. And it's easier to find them, but it's also weirdly more satisfying to put them away because you have that feeling of like hitting a mark. Like, ooh, these scissors go right here. It's more fun to put things away. Okay, what's this?

[Elizabeth Craft]

That is. Gosh, that is something I seemed like a good idea at the time. It's like it's a band that you. This is back when low waisted jeans were the rage. So this is like a band that you can put to sort of COVID your, you know, your plumber's situation so that we can, we can really just throw that away. I don't think anyone wants that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Your plumber situation. It's Called a trendy top, But I guess that trend has passed.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm right that they're out. But even if not, it's just not a look to go for.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I mean, that's just like. You wonder what was I thinking? Okay. You know, one thing I noticed that you don't have in here is a trash can. Would you like to have a little trash can?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah, that's a great idea.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I mean, and not a box that you're using as a trash can, but an actual thing that looks like a trash can.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Is that something people should have in their closets?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, most people don't have enough room to put a trash can in their closet, frankly. But if you can, I think it's a real wonderful luxury because like here there's just like something that you ripped off a pair of socks, a lot of those. Here's a receipt. Here's like a plastic thing off of a purse sized tissue bag. Yeah. You only have to walk two steps to use the trash can in the bathroom because your closet is off your bathroom. But it's just having that little. Just being able to dump it. I mean, this is one of the things that's striking to me is how convenience matters so much for what we're doing. The tiniest bit of convenience will enormously change people's behavior. And so if you just had a little trash can.

[Elizabeth Craft]

All right, Gretch, I'm looking around. I feel like we're done. Can we be done?

[Gretchen Rubin]

We can be done. And you've been so patient and you've been a very good sport about doing this. And I know it seems like, you know, what is the big deal? Like, in the context of a happy life, had something like a crowded coat closet. It's not a big deal, but it is the case that there's something about just getting control of these little things that seems to make people feel more able to tackle the big things. It's like the friend of mine who said, I finally cleaned out my fridge, and now I know I can switch careers. There's something about these little things that really, they matter more than they should. So what I'm hoping, as your sister, is that it really will help you feel relaxed and cheerful and more energized when you can come in here and just see only things that you really enjoy.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I'll definitely have more outfits to wear because I'll have easier access to my clothes, and it will make my husband happier to look in here and see the chaos significantly under control.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right. Well, and this is a funny thing that I've noticed because I do try to like voice myself off on people to help them clean their closets is a lot of times their spouses become so exhilarated by the sight of this new closet that then they go ahead and clean their closets on their own because so a lot of times when you change something yourself then you cause other people to change so it can have this ripple effect. That's it for this revisited episode. If your aesthetic clean out Eliza's closet inspires you to clear some clutter of your own. I have a whole page on my website dedicated to all my favorite tips, hacks, advice for getting organized. You can find it [e-mail] slash organization. So Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. Bye, Gretch.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Bye Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.