More Happier: Does Money Stress You Out? Mrs. Dow Jones & Reema Khrais on What Helps

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode: More Happier: Does Money Stress You Out? Mrs. Dow Jones & Reema Khrais on What Helps

Date: February 21, 2026
Host: Gretchen Rubin
Guests: Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones), Reema Khrais

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Episode Overview

This episode of More Happier dives deep into the often taboo subject of money and its influence on happiness, stress, and self-worth. Gretchen Rubin is joined by financial educator Haley Sachs (aka Mrs. Dow Jones) and journalist/podcast host Reema Khrais to break down why money feels so overwhelming, how to manage shame and avoidance, and what actionable steps anyone can take to gain peace, control, and clarity over their financial lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Money Feels So Fraught

• Money’s “PR Problem”:
  • Haley Sachs points out that money has a negative reputation, associated with deprivation and judgment rather than as a tool for building a meaningful life.

    "It's been marketed to us as this moral judgment tool versus something that you can actually use to build your life." (05:05, Sachs)

  • Reema Khrais highlights “shame” as a key emotion attached to money; our finances become loaded with self-judgment and comparison.

    "Opening a bank account isn't just about looking at numbers. We attach so much meaning to our finances..." (06:09, Khrais)

  • Gretchen emphasizes this leads to avoidance, which perpetuates a cycle of anxiety.

    "...it builds on itself in a negative way." (06:58, Rubin)

2. Examining Values & Money Narratives

• Internalized Beliefs:

  • We inherit attitudes toward money from family and culture, often unconsciously.

    "The money values I grew up with, are they actually mine?" (09:12, Khrais)

  • Gretchen shares her own experience with buying books as a perceived luxury due to her upbringing.

    "Buying a book feels like a luxury...It still colors my response to something decades later." (10:17, Rubin)

• Defining Personal Values:

  • Take intentional time to clarify what matters to you financially—accept you can have anything, but not everything.

    "Sit down and define your core financial values...you can have anything, but you can't have everything." (08:11, Sachs)

3. Dealing with Financial Regret & Shame

• Forgiving Past Mistakes:
  • Both guests stressed self-compassion.

    "Having empathy and compassion for yourself about all of that... most people are struggling with this for these exact reasons." (17:06, Sachs)

  • Reframe missteps as essential learning, not personal failure.

    "Reframing it to be about what you learned... it switches it from 'I made a terrible mistake' to 'I learned from experience'..." (17:46, Sachs & Rubin)

  • Separate facts from narratives; understand the context of decisions.

    "Separate the facts from the story you're telling yourself about them." (18:04, Khrais)

4. Understanding & Managing Spending Triggers

• Emotional Spending:
  • Identify emotional triggers and patterns behind spending.

    "Spending feels good for a reason. It gives us a dopamine hit..." (21:39, Khrais)

  • Add friction to slow down impulsive purchases (e.g., delete saved cards, 24-hour pause).

    "Adding some friction... creating like a 24-hour pause on non-essential purchases..." (23:28, Khrais)

  • Curate your digital environment:
    • Unfollow accounts that encourage spending.

    "Curate your content diet... unfollowing influencers who make you feel like you need more..." (24:36, Sachs)

5. Taking First Steps Toward a Financial Plan

• Get Started Imperfectly:

  • Don't let perfectionism stop progress; start with small, manageable tasks.

    "Start really small. I would sit down on the couch... put a timer on... The more I did that, the easier it became." (28:29, Khrais)

  • Just monitoring finances leads to better behavior, even before budgeting.

    "Just knowing what you're spending... people will start to behave more in line with the way that they wish that they would behave." (29:52, Rubin)

  • Money Date Ritual:
    • Set aside regular, brief sessions to check in with your finances—even if you don’t feel like it.

    "I do that every month religiously, but I still never want to do it." (31:22, Sachs)

• Know Your Basics:

  • Calculate your basic monthly fixed expenses (rent, utilities, etc.).

    "Knowing how much your life costs... your fixed expenses... is really helpful." (31:40, Sachs)

6. Making Habits Stick (and Money Work for You)

• Automate Good Habits:
  • Set up automatic transfers for savings and investments; automate bill payments.

    "The financial habit that literally made me a millionaire was automation." (35:34, Sachs) "Put your credit cards on autopay... set up automatic transfers to your savings..." (35:50, Sachs)

• Increase Visibility, Reduce Temptation:
  • Place financial apps on your home screen; delete one-click payment options and saved credit cards.

    "Keep my banking and budgeting apps on my home screen... I've deleted saved credit cards before..." (34:41, Khrais)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Shame & Avoidance:

  "Until we take some of that shame and threat out of money, we're asking people to override their nervous systems with willpower, which we know is not tenable."
  (07:06, Khrais)

• On Values & Internalized Beliefs:

  "Maybe you're someone who feels guilty spending money on things that aren't necessary, even if that brings you joy... you might realize... growing up, money was framed as something you should only use for needs..."
  (09:12, Khrais)

• On Emotional Spending Triggers:

  "Our phones are just walking billboards. We have so much opportunity to buy things and so much marketing that tells us that we need more things..."
  (23:28, Sachs)

• On Small Steps:

  "It sounds so simple, but the more I did that, the easier it became to confront my finances..."
  (29:11, Khrais)

• On Automation:

  "You can wake up one day and have so much energy towards your financial goals and then you try and do it the next week and you would rather put your head in the oven. So it's about figuring out a solution that is not reliant on you... and that is literally just automation."
  (35:44, Sachs)

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Practical Takeaways & Actionable Tips

Building Good Financial Habits

• Set aside regular “money dates” to review your finances (31:22, Sachs)
• Start with a small task: just observe your accounts without pressure to act (28:29, Khrais)
• Automate savings, investments, and bill payments (35:34–35:50, Sachs)
• Create friction to slow spending: remove saved cards, unsubscribe from shopping emails, unfollow spendy influencers (23:28–24:36, Khrais/Sachs)
• Track your basic monthly expenses so you know your “survival number” (31:40–32:24, Sachs)
• Download and use a debt tracker if you have outstanding debt (38:25, Sachs)

Key Mindset Shifts

• View money as a tool to achieve your values, not an end goal or source of identity (11:49, Khrais)
• Replace self-judgment with curiosity and compassion about your past financial decisions (17:06–18:04, Sachs/Khrais)
• Forgive mistakes: “You can have anything, but you can’t have everything” (08:11, Sachs)

Useful Mantras & Frameworks

• "Money is the tool. It's not the goal." (11:49, Khrais)
• "Monitor, don’t judge—just notice what you notice" (29:11, Khrais)
• "Set it and forget it" — automate the habits you want to keep (35:44, Sachs)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:24 – Intro to guests and overview of episode theme
• 05:05 – Why money management feels so emotional/difficult
• 08:11 – How to clarify your financial values
• 10:17 – Stories and beliefs from childhood around money
• 17:02 – Dealing with financial regret/shame
• 21:28 – Managing impulsive spending and emotional triggers
• 24:36 – Reducing cues and digital temptation to spend
• 28:29 – Breaking the intimidation barrier around financial planning
• 31:22 – How to run a “money date” and embracing imperfection
• 35:34 – Automating your finances for effortless progress
• 38:25 – First steps for tackling debt

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Closing Thoughts

The episode closes with each guest sharing their single most practical tip—automate your finances (Sachs & Khrais)—and a compassionate reminder from Gretchen Rubin:

"The best time to start your savings is 20 years ago. The second best time is now." (39:45, Rubin)

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For more financial resources, Haley Sachs offers a free debt payoff planner at mrsdowjones.com.

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Transcript

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[Rima Krais]

Lemonade.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we are here for more Happier A Podcast where we get happier. Today's episode is the next in our Roundtable conversation series, and the topic today is our financial lives. For many of us, dealing with money is a source of dread, anxiety, guilt, just general discomfort, a constant chore that we're trying to avoid. In this roundtable, we'll talk about how we can design our financial lives better to gain greater feelings of peace and control. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness and human nature. I'm host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, and I also have a new podcast, since youe Asked. That's an advice podcast with a twist, and I'm also the author of many books, including the Happiness Project and Happier at home. Those two are particularly relevant to our discussion today. And joining me today, two terrific guests. I am so looking forward to this conversation. First, Haley Sachs, who has an aka Mrs. Dow Jones. Haley Sachs is a leading voice in financial literacy for millennials and Gen Z. She's a financial expert, host of the Financial T podcast, and author of Future Rich the New Rules for Building Wealth. Hello, Hailey, how are you?

[Haley Sachs]

I am so excited to be here. I am a huge fan of your work. So I'm a little bit starstruck, but can't wait for this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is so nice to hear. And we are also joined by Rima Krais. Rima is the host of the weekly Marketplace podcast, this Is Uncomfortable, a show about life and how money messes with it. She began her career in audio as an NPR Crock Fellow and joined Marketplace as a reporter in 2016, where she has covered a wide range of social and economic issues. Hello, Rima.

[Rima Krais]

Hello. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited to talk about this. This is gonna be great.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I mean, this is a fraught subject right within the larger topic of happiness. I think issues related to money are among the most emotionally charged. So let us dive into the core question of why do money matters feel so hard and so fraught? And what are some of the things that we can do in an immediate, practical way to replace those bad feelings with maybe some of the calm that can come from self knowledge and self awareness and. And how to get started ourselves with grappling with our own behavior and attitudes. But first, let's just jump in with the most basic scene setting question. So, Haley, and I'm gonna ask you this too, Rima, if you had to pick one big reason why managing money feels like such a dreadful chore to so many people, what do you think is at the core of that?

[Haley Sachs]

I think that managing money has a big PR issue because it's really been. Yeah, it's been framed and marketed to us as like this moral judgment tool versus then. Yeah, versus something that you can actually use to build your life. So, like, when you think about managing money, you're always thinking about how you have to cut back and deprive yourself. And so obviously no one wants to do that and they avoid it. Cause they're like, ooh, I wanna have my latte. I wanna like, enjoy my life, spend money. And so it's really built on just restriction and shame. And so of course, our brains resist it, which is. I'm getting my Gretchen on talking about brains. But yeah. So I think that, like, the key is. Is, like, shifting it from, like, what am I cutting to, like, what am I building, how am I redirecting this towards the life that I actually really want?

[Gretchen Rubin]

So reframing it in that way. How about you, Rema? What would you say?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, no, exactly. I think shame is the big word here for a lot of people. Opening a bank account isn't just about looking at numbers. We attach so much meaning to our finances, and it's easy to start telling ourselves stories about what those numbers say about us, whether we're responsible enough or whether we're keeping up or falling behind. And I think that's usually when feelings of shame can creep in. And once that happens, avoidance becomes a very natural and reasonable response.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And a lot of it comes down to our brains. We don't avoid these dreadful chores because we're lazy or we don't care. We avoid them because it comes with these heavy emotional consequences like guilt or shame or sense of helplessness. And our brains, as you know very well, Gretchen, are really good at steering us away from anything that makes us feel bad. And it becomes a habit loop. So, you know, you open your bank account, you feel that spike of anxiety or self judgment. You close it, you feel the relief.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And the more you do that, then the worse it gets because it's been so long since you've checked that it's even scarier. So, yeah, it builds on itself in a negative way.

[Rima Krais]

And that habit is built on emotion. And so until we take some of that shame and threat out of money, we're asking people to override their nervous systems with willpower, which we know is not tenable.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this is why I think that the kind of conversations that you two lead are so important, because a lot of shame is feeling like I'm the only one. Everybody would shun me if they knew what I did. And when, you know, like, a lot of people are grappling with this, a lot of people do the same thing. A lot of people are in just this kind of situation. It takes some of that shame away, and you feel like, okay, it's not just me. There's larger forces at work. What can I do about it? And it seems to me like one of the things, too, coming down to the brain of it all, is that a lot of times we have conflicting desires. How would you suggest for somebody to think about it if they're like, the thing is, I really, really want to save, but I also really, really want to travel. And I think, yeah, I should think about the future, but I also want to embrace today. And I want to spend money on other people, and generosity is really important to me, but I also want to spend on myself or I really think it's important to have good health and I want to join a gym, but then, like, I also want to have drinks with my friends. How do you suggest people get clarity on their own values?

[Haley Sachs]

Yeah, I mean, I think that a big issue with money is that we are never taught it in school and we never really. Yeah, we never examine our relationship with it. So we're just sort of running around with like, like chicken with our heads cut off, like, trying to get where we want to go, but we have no actual plan or, like, understanding of how to get there or how to live that full life that we all desire so much. And so I think you have to take. It sounds woo woo, but you have to take a little bit of time to like, sit down and define your core financial values. Because you can have anything, but you can't have everything. And without knowing that, you're gonna always have that tension between saving and spending. And that will also lead to more guilt, which will make you want to avoid your finances even more. It's a loop. And so you have to figure out what matters to you, why it matters, and then you can create a solution where you are able to spend on it.

[Rima Krais]

And I think it also really matters to ask yourself, what money values did I grow up with and are they actually mine? Yes. Because before you can make sense of competing goals, I think it's important to separate what genuinely matters to you versus what you may have absorbed from your family or your culture or society more broadly. And, you know, just. It's so fascinating to me how little we actually know about our own relationship with money, because so much of it is driven by unconscious beliefs. The messages we internalized when we were younger or how we observed our own families talking about the rich and the poor or communities. And so I think we connect emotions to money before we even have words to describe those emotions. And then that hardens into beliefs that follow us into adulthood. And so, you know, like, maybe you're someone who feels guilty spending money on things that aren't necessary, even if that brings you joy. And when you slow down and look at it, you might realize that, like, oh, growing up, money was framed as something that you should only use for needs, or wanting more money was seen as selfish. And so that kind of framing, I think, can have a huge impact on how you make decisions Today, even if it no longer reflects what you actually value.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Here's a really good example of that. Just like a very small concrete example that I've noticed in myself. When I was little, we didn't buy books, we went to the library and it was like a whole joyful ritual, go to the library. But if we were driving to my grandparents house, which was like a whole day drive into Nebraska, then we would go to the bookstore and I could pick like six books or something like that. And so to me, to this day, I still go to the library all the time. Love libraries. But buying a book feels like a luxury. And we would never buy hardback books, we would buy paperback books. And when I got married to my husband and he would regularly buy hardback books, I was like, it wasn't even like I was judgmental, I was just like, oh my gosh, I didn't know it was possible to live like this. You just walk in and buy three hardback books. What is happening? But even to this day, and it just shows, even with a very small specific thing, it still colors my response to something decades later. Did we ever have a conversation about this? No, it was just, this was just the way our family did it.

[Rima Krais]

What you internalized, I internalized it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And we never even talked about the values. It was just, this is how we do.

[Haley Sachs]

And we're also like, it's so normalized in our culture to like be in therapy and like work on your mental health or to go to workout classes or get a trainer if you want to improve your fitness. But it's not normalized to deal with your money issues. Even though studies show that these are, these beliefs are set by the time we're seven years old. Seven years old. And so I think creating the space, especially in this new year, to actually sit down with yourself and examine this is one of the most powerful things you will do with your finances for your whole life.

[Rima Krais]

And also trying to figure out what you want the money for, which is what we were talking about earlier. Like I've talked to so many people over the years who just want more money for the sake of money. And they're just on this treadmill and they don't know when to get off. But when you know what you're working towards. I think I try to think of money as the tool, it's not the goal. Right. It helps you get to your goals. So you can ask yourself like, what is important for me in this season? Is it helping my parents? Is it paying down my debt? Is it investing in my health. And so I think it's, it's like I said, it's always going to feel like a treadmill unless you're actually clear on what it is that you're trying to accomplish that's such a good because

[Gretchen Rubin]

there's, there's no end to it. So you're right. Otherwise, how do you even mark it? Well, coming up, we are going to talk about the problem of when we feel paralyzed by guilt because we've made mistakes or done things wrong in the past. But first, this break.

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[Rima Krais]

Yeah.

[Haley Sachs]

I think maybe even from what we've gleamed from our discussion so far today is like these are beliefs that you've had set since childhood no one ever taught you and you're just running around expecting to be perfect and for the commas to add to your bank account, but you have no strategy or wisdom about what you want or how to

[Gretchen Rubin]

get it and nobody's talking about it that you know, everybody's dealing with it on their own.

[Haley Sachs]

Yes, it's like sex or death. Like everyone is Just like tight lipped. And so I think having like empathy and compassion for yourself about all of that. Because I mean it's not just you. Most people are struggling with this for these exact reasons. And then trying to write maybe if there's like a few money decisions that really haunt you, like maybe you got like a car loan or something that was super high interest rate and you feel like you got, you know, super taken advantage of reframing it to be about what you learned. Like, okay, I learned that I need to research loans more and get second opinions before I take one out.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think that is such a great suggestion because it switches it from I made a terrible mistake to like we all learn from experience and usually it's from a big mistake and now I won't make that mistake again. So it is that reframing to have it be positive. Yeah, I love that. Okay, any other suggestions that's super helpful?

[Rima Krais]

Well, that's essentially similar point to what I was going to say of just like separating the facts from the story you're telling yourself about them. Because a lot of the decisions, like we've said, we make these decisions and we beat ourselves up over them. But they maybe made sense at the time. Like maybe we were responding to a feeling of stress or just like trying to get through a difficult stretch of time. And that doesn't mean the choice was ideal, but it also isn't some character flaw. And so yeah, like we've said, feeling guilt and shame, it doesn't really doesn't help us at all. We just go into protection mode. And so practically something that I've done over the years is just like sitting down, looking at my finances and just noticing what I notice. What are the patterns? Like why did I make these purchases during this time? What emotion was I trying to fix? What thing was I trying to solve for? I think once you can remove a lot of that meaning you're attaching to the numbers or the story that you're telling yourself, then you can start being more self compassionate and you can start looking at your finances without being in like defense mode. Because that, yeah, like I said, a lot of our money decisions don't happen in a vacuum. They happen when we're feeling stressed or tired and lonely or whatever. And self compassion just acknowledges that context instead of like pretending that we should be rational and practical at all times because we are very irrational with our money.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, it's interesting, I was just hearing a discussion where a woman was who had a lot of debt, was saying that she had Received a windfall because she had inherited some money from her father when he died. And that looking back, she was really full of regret that she didn't invest the money, she didn't pay down debt. And they were saying, oh, the research shows that this kind of windfall, people often don't treat it like regular money. They feel like it is a different kind of money.

[Haley Sachs]

Yes, yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

There's all different kinds of money. Yeah. Which is super confusing.

[Haley Sachs]

So true. Or like, even, like bonuses people are confused about too. Like our tax refunds, I see it with all the time. Which is so crazy, because a tax refund basically means that you gave the government a zero percent interest loan and then they're paying it back. I mean, it's this whole idea of girl math, which I hate, and I am like a big proponent against, where it's like having to sort of trick yourself into making financial decisions instead of just facing them head on. Like, oh, I. Well, I returned this outfit and I got a credit. So now that, yeah, that money is free money, you know, but again, it's all about alignment. Cause it's like that is just someone who is hiding from themselves a little. Right. And, like, trying to trick themselves. But if you're in alignment with your goals and you're working towards them, then money is just money that helps you get there. Like, it's exactly what Rema said where it's like, money is not the goal, Money is the tool.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. That's a really helpful mantra that it's not the goal in itself, it's a tool. So how are you. Are you using it to get what you want? And I remember talking to somebody who was like, my goal is safety and security. I really want to be safe and secure and safe for the future. But he was spending so impulsively. But again, I think it's back to the idea that you two were saying earlier about knowing your values. Like, maybe if he'd really sat down and acknowledged how much he yearned for security, he would have seen, like, well, what you're doing day to day is really not taking you towards that value.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, what do you think about when people just feel like they're not in control of their spending, where they're maybe spending more than they can afford or that they want to afford, and they just don't feel in control? I think now we're surrounded by cues that can really get people to just one click or impulse purchase. Do you have any suggestions?

[Rima Krais]

Go ahead.

[Haley Sachs]

Go ahead. No, we're both like, foaming at the mouth, we're like, you want to know this? We know this. Buy now, pay later. Yeah, go ahead, girl.

[Rima Krais]

No, yeah, yeah. I think about this a lot. And I talk with a lot of people who overspend, want to get, you know, reign in their finances. And I think an obvious solution might be to, like, get really strict and be really rigid with your budget. But I think, as is true with so many other parts of our lives, when we try to rein something in too much, it becomes hard to stick to and easily swing back into the negative outcome we're trying to overcome. And so I think first, something I hear a lot and it's good to recognize is that spending feels good for a reason. It gives us a dopamine hit. And so in that moment, like I was talking about earlier, it can help ease whatever bad feeling or stressor you might be experiencing. And so a lot of the work is figuring out the emotional triggers behind your spending and understanding what that spending is doing for you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So this is why the patterns that you were talking about would be illuminating as well.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, exactly. And just like creating a beat before you are making that purchase or even going further back from that point and looking more broadly at your spending patterns and thinking, like, when is this usually happening? What feeling am I hoping this will change? Is there another way I can meet this need that maybe is a little cheaper or doesn't involve spending money? So those are like some questions you can ask yourself. But I also have talked with many experts over the years who've told me the importance of, you know, with any kind of negative habit you're trying to kill, of adding some friction. So with overspending, I think creating like a 24 hour pause on non essential purchases or moving discretionary money into like a separate account. I talked with someone recently who gives herself what she calls an allowance card. And so she is like, yeah, I just have to treat myself like my parents did when I was younger and tell myself that this is a separate bank account, separate card, and I don't feel guilty when I'm spending it. And I'm doing the math each month to know that this is how much I'm able to spend on discretionary stuff. But I'm curious what you think, Haley. I'm sure you have things to add on to it.

[Haley Sachs]

No, you really nailed it. But one thing that I also like to consider is that we are the most advertised to generation of all time. Like our phones are just walking billboards. We have so much opportunity to buy things and so much marketing that tells us that we need more things. So that emotional poll could be like, yeah, you're sad about something that happened in your day. But also like even the emotion of a sad sale of it being like 70% off, that feeling of being like, well, I'm going to miss the thing that's going to change my life. So I have to like go through 40 pages of sale to make sure that I like got everything that I don't need really. And so I think making yourself less susceptible to that, like, you know, trying to curate your content, diet a little bit unfollowing influencers who you think really make you just feel like you need more, you know, unsubscribing from newsletters that are just causing you to use Apple pay like Apple be paying and you know, and just really starting to create a world around you where there's less access to you to spend.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Less cues, less cues, less cues. Those are great suggestions. Coming up, we're going to talk about how to create a financial plan and not get intimidated by the idea that it has to be like the perfect spreadsheet that you can use for the rest the of of your life. But first, this break. These days, fast, reliable Internet is essential to everyday life. And if you have a business, it's even more essential. Yes, Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected seamlessly with Internet, advanced WI fi, phone, TV and mobile services. For this podcast, we rely on Spectrum. Spectrum allows us to record this podcast even though we are in three different locations. We do it seamlessly every time.

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Having mill in our kitchen has really shifted the way I think about food waste. Fridge cleanouts used to feel discouraging when I saw so much going straight into the trash. Now everything goes into mill instead. The kitchen stays fresh and it just feels lighter. But you have to live with mill to really get it. Good thing. You can try it risk free for 90 days and get $75 off with code. Happy. Visit mill.com happier. That's mill.com happier. Okay, we're back. And when you hear the phrase financial plan, I think a lot of people feel very intimidated. They don't know what that looks like or they think, well, if I'm going to do this, I really need to get it right. I need to have a spreadsheet. I've got to account for everything. How realistic is that? What is a good enough financial action plan look like for somebody who's feeling overwhelmed? How would you just gently get them started?

[Rima Krais]

I can relate to this so much. Several years ago I had this moment where I was like, oh, I, I need to be more intentional with my spending and my finances. And I felt very overwhelmed. I also spent hours looking up the perfect spreadsheet, trying to watch the YouTube videos that would teach me how to get my finances in order. And then it didn't really work. It always kind of backfire. And so then I just started really small. I would sit down on the couch, get my favorite drink, maybe put on like a TV show in the background just as noise. And I would put a timer on because I was like, I don't want to do this for more than 20 minutes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, good. So you knew that the end was in sight. That's a really useful thing. This Is not fun, but it's not for long.

[Rima Krais]

But I got to do it. Yeah, and it'll be over. And so then I opened up my accounts and I did similar to what I was describing earlier, where I just looked at my purchases. I wasn't at the point where I was trying to budget or make a specific plan again, I was just trying to notice what I noticed, trying to be aware, more aware of the numbers, what's coming in, what's going out. And it sounds so simple, but the more I did that, the easier it became to confront my finances. And then eventually I started budgeting and investing. And again, it's like breaking that habit loop of avoidance. And then I had more fun with it. I would start making these spreadsheets and color coding them. And I was actually looking forward to those 20 minute sessions where I could just look at my finances and figure things out.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this is interesting because research shows that just monitoring something, people tend to do a better job with it, even if they're not consciously trying to change that. Just knowing what you're spending and as you say, the patterns of what you're spending, people will start to behave more in line with the way that they wish that they would behave. And so it's a good reminder that you don't have to come down with a hammer and say, okay, I'm gonna give up every unnecessary thing. It's like, just see what's there. Just look. How about you, Haley? Would you add anything to that to get the novice going?

[Haley Sachs]

Yeah, I mean, I fully relate to being the, like, type B friend who is using her, like, passport at the bar because she forgot her id.

[Rima Krais]

Same.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I.

[Rima Krais]

Same.

[Haley Sachs]

And I think that I. Because of that, I always thought that, like, something that really prevented me from having any sort of, like, financial progress or growing wealth before I came. Mrs. Dow Jones, the before times was just this idea that because I wasn't that girl who, like, had the perfect handwriting, I was always like a mess at school, Unorganized backpack and locker. Like, and there were those girls with like, every I dotted and T crossed because I wasn't that kind of person, that this was not for me. But it's so not true. You can be the type B person and also be really successful with money. And like, that's just a limiting belief. But I would say, like, something that really helps while you're doing what Remo's calling, which, like, I call a money date, which is like a set time every month that you use to look at your finances. And I will Say, like, I do that every month religiously, but I still never want to do it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, all right.

[Haley Sachs]

It's like I'm doing well. It's just like annoying. It's like the same with going to the gym is annoying. You know, you're going to feel better after. But like, I don't expect it to be something that's like, really fun, that I'm like, woo, time for my money date. It's more like, I got to get this done. This is just part of the business of being me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Haley Sachs]

And so expect it to be sort of annoying. And then also I would say knowing how much your life costs without your additional spending is really helpful. Number two, calculate in those early days. So, like, knowing your fixed expenses, like a lot of people, you know, they don't have a number at hand where they're like, my utilities, my wireless, my, you know, bare bones groceries, no fancy mustards or whatever. Just like what I need to survive and rent or mortgage and car, like, whatever I need to live my life. Bare bones. Like, what that number is, they don't really know what that is. And so just knowing that number can be really helpful too in terms of, you know, helping you start budgeting.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And why, why is it that knowing that number is so helpful?

[Haley Sachs]

That number is super helpful because your goal at the end of every month is to have what I like to call action money, which is money that you earned and didn't spend and then you can take action with. And maybe that action is building an emergency fund, maybe that's paying off your debt, maybe it's, you know, investing whatever your financial goal is, that's where you're going to put your action money. But your life is never going to be that. You are only going to be spending on your needs and your future and never on wants. And so it's about getting those ratios in balance. And usually we say financial planners, people like me say 50% on needs, 30% on wants, 20% on future you, which is what you would put your action money towards. And so knowing your fixed expenses will help you also understand those other ratios. And then you can see, like, how far off you are. Because also if your fixed expenses are too high, you're like on this hedonic treadmill where you're just behind financially even before you start. So, like, you might need to move, you might need to get a roommate. There's all these solutions to if, like your baseline spending every month is just. That's what's killing your progress.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, just moving to something Very practical. One thing that we've touched on, and I can't remember, Reema or Haley, which one of you was talking about how it's so easy now to spend. One thing that's clear is that, like, we're much more likely to stick to a good habit when it's really convenient, and we're much less likely to do something if it's inconvenient. So if there's something that we don't want ourselves to do, we should make it inconvenient, increase the friction. But we should also make good habits as easy as possible. Would you throw out any suggestions for things to try to make easier or things to make harder and how a person might do that? Like unsubscribing to a newsletter that always makes you want to buy something. Like, that's really good. Right. Because now it's extremely inconvenient to find that person's content. Because you're not. It's not just coming into your inbox. Do you have any other suggestions? Because that's a super easy way to intervene with our behavior if we figure out how to rig it up.

[Haley Sachs]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

I do think pairing your financial habits with something that you already do, obviously, really helps. Like, I try to do a weekly reset on Sunday mornings, and so I'm already looking at my calendar, getting oriented for the week. I mean, that's like, on a good Sunday.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And so that's when a quick money check in might make sense for me. And what I'll tend to do just like, 10 minutes. And then I think visibility is a big thing. So something as simple, like, I keep my banking and budgeting apps on my home screen instead of buried in a folder. It makes a huge difference for me. It reduces that, like, mental hurdle of, like, I'll deal with this later.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Isn't that interesting that something so small, it's so simple.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah. But I need to see it in order to remember to do it. And then I think the flip side of that of, like, making impulse spending slightly less convenient. I've deleted saved credit cards before from certain shopping apps, which really helps. Like what Hayley was saying, adding that friction or to, like, turn off one click purchasing. That is dangerous for me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

Because I'm just trying to interrupt any actions that may be in autopilot and be a little bit more intentional.

[Gretchen Rubin]

How about you, Haley? Anything to add?

[Haley Sachs]

I mean, the financial habit that literally made me a millionaire was automation. So I think we need to. Even though that's not a habit, you have to do it Once and then it's automated.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's the best kind of habit. Set it and forget it. Yes. Talk about the wonders of automation.

[Haley Sachs]

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I feel like if you're listening to this podcast and you are definitely interested in habits, but you also know that like, as humans, we have so many faults and our willpower is so finite and so like, you can wake up one day and have so much energy towards your financial goals and then you try and do it the next week and you would rather like put your head in the oven. So it's about figuring out a solution that is not reliant on you to be building wealth and that is literally just automation. So like putting your credit cards on autopay. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't. You can't look at, you should obviously look at them still make sure there's no fraud, all of that. But that will prevent you from ever paying late fees, setting up automatic transfers to your savings, setting up automatic investment contributions so that this way when your paycheck hits, you are paying yourself first versus taking what's left over at the end of the month and piecing it together. It's just a system that will simplify your life and actually make you make progress. Like for me, I wouldn't my. The first way that this really was like, I was like, wow, automation is insane. This is incredible. Was just like with my saving account.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah.

[Haley Sachs]

When I was saving my emergency fund, you know, just by putting that money into my high yield savings account every month automatically. It was like by the end of a year I had an emergency fund and I was like, damn, that was crazy. I gotta be automating more finances. So it really works.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Because then you're not relying on your month to month decisions. It's just one, one and done. Okay. Well, finally, I would love to ask each of you, I always like to ask guests, is there one suggestion that you would give to listeners for a practical thing that the ordinary person could do as part of their ordinary day to make their lives happier, healthier, more productive, or more creative. So I'll start with you, Reema. Do you have a suggestion? Well,

[Rima Krais]

I was actually going to say what the beautiful point that Haley just made, which is to automate as much as you can.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So just say it again. That's the underline it.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, I think it's huge. I mean, similar to you, I also started automating several years ago and I was like, oh, I could have been doing this a long time ago. Saving this much, you know, and so, yeah, do what you can. It doesn't even have to be a big amount. A small amount makes it makes a difference and it'll build that momentum to make it easier to make other financial decisions.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think it's definitely worth repeating because it kind of gets into that magic of money. Like, is it real money? Is it leftover money? How much money is it? This way you're just avoiding all of that noise in your head. How about you, Hailey? What would you suggest?

[Haley Sachs]

I would say most Americans have debt. So, like, most of the people listening to this are going to have some sort of debt that they're probably struggling with or avoiding reading. And so as a first step, I would say I have a free debt payoff planner that you can just [e-mail] and I would use it to just write out all of your debts and you put in your interest rate and the minimum monthly payment and it will sort it for you so you know which one to focus on. But I think just like that simple task of writing them all out versus, like, it taking up all this brain space of like, well, I know that I have this one or that one and you're not really clear on things. Like, just that first step is so powerful. And then from there you can, in the free planner, it tells you how to like, what you should focus on most and gives you a game plan. But I would say just like taking control of your debt, knowing how much your aprs are and everything would be like the most positive step ever.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, these are great because it's both sides. One is automate what's coming in, and the other one is know what needs to go out.

[Rima Krais]

Totally.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Well, this is great. Thank you. Thank you so much, both of you. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I feel like we could talk all day about this. There's so much emotion and values and childhood and parents.

[Rima Krais]

So much to dig into.

[Haley Sachs]

All your favorite words.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, yeah, exactly. So thank you to Haley Saks, aka Mrs. Dow Jones and Rima Crates, and thanks to our producer, Chuck Reed. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 28 years ago. The second best time is now. The best time to start your savings is 20 years ago. And the second best time is now.

[Rima Krais]

Thanks so much.

[Haley Sachs]

Thank you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

From the Onward project.

[Haley Sachs]

Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of midst of major life transitions?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for I Am O with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever your get podcast, you can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships Kiki Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.