← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Loading summary
Transcript168 lines
- [00:00]
Gretchen Rubin
Listen. Whole Foods Market is a great place to get everything that we need for a fantastic summer barbecue. They have the chicken thighs, the ground beef. We love to have salmon burgers, uncured hot dogs. Plus there's all the other things that you love for summer barbecue. The ice cream, the tortilla chips, the salsas, salad kits. You can get it all at Whole Foods Market and look for hundreds of.
- [00:26]
Elizabeth Craft
Yellow low price signs that help you save without compromising the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. There are so many ways to save on summer grilling favorites at Whole Foods Market. As we grow wiser, we become more intentional about what we put in our bodies, which is why we're delighted to share Ghia's non alcoholic aperitifs with you. What's remarkable about GIA is there's absolutely no added sugar and of course zero alcohol instead of the hidden sugars found in most wine spritzers or cocktails that can affect our energy levels and metabolic health. Gheea Only pure botanicals like yuzu, rosemary and elderflower for its sophisticated, bright and bold flavor. Gretch I love taking a really nice glass. You know I care about my glassware and having that drink, but it's so nice to have it feel special but not be alcoholic.
- [01:22]
Gretchen Rubin
And there's so many great flavors. Ghia ginger, lemon, salt sumac and chili or Ghia soda. Look for Ghia products at a Target or Whole Foods near you and enjoy a special discount when you shop on drinkgua.com use code HAPPIER at checkout and get 20% off your order. That's D R I N K g h I a.com and use code happier for 20% off.
- [01:46]
Elizabeth Craft
Lemonade.
- [02:01]
Gretchen Rubin
Hello, we're here for more Happier a podcast where we get happier. Today we're sharing my recent interview on the Totally Booked with Zibby podcast. It's hosted by Zibby Owens, my friend and the powerhouse bookstore owner, best selling author and just promoter of reading and books everywhere. In my conversation with Zibby, which was recorded in front of a live audience, you'll hear all about my new book, Secrets of Simple Truths for our complex Lives. This was such a fun conversation. It's about why I love personality frameworks, things I've discovered in the Empty Nest open door phase. We have a really energizing conversation. I cannot wait for you to listen. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Now here's the episode.
- [02:52]
Zibby Owens
Welcome back to Totally Booked Live. I am so excited to be here with Gretchen Rubin.
- [02:59]
Gretchen Rubin
I'm so happy to Be here.
- [03:01]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. We're going to talk all about secrets of adulthood, but I'll just read a quick bio. Who here has read something by Gretchen Rubin? Like everybody?
- [03:09]
Gretchen Rubin
Thank you. Gold star.
- [03:11]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Gretchen Rubin is one of today's most influential observers of happiness and human nature. She is the author of many books, including the blockbuster New York Times bestsellers, the happiness project, the Four Tendencies, Better Than before, and Life in Five Senses. Her books have sold more than 3.5 million copies worldwide and in more than 30 languages. That must feel good.
- [03:32]
Gretchen Rubin
It does. Good doesn't get old.
- [03:36]
Zibby Owens
She hosts the top ranking award winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where she explores practical solutions for living a happier life. Raised in Kansas City, she lives in New York City with her family.
- [03:47]
Gretchen Rubin
Yay.
- [03:47]
Elizabeth Craft
Yeah.
- [03:48]
Gretchen Rubin
I'm so happy to be talking to everybody today. Thank you for having me. Hey, can I just point out Zibby coordinated her outfit with the COVID Can I just say that is next level, right?
- [03:59]
Zibby Owens
I mean, gotta give good service.
- [04:01]
Gretchen Rubin
I know. The attention to detail is remarkable.
- [04:05]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Secrets of adulthood. Simple truths for our complex lives. Explain the concept for the book.
- [04:10]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, so a couple different strands came together. First of all, I wanted to collect the secrets of adulthood that I had learned with time and experience, usually the hard way, to give to my two daughters who are, like, going off into the world. And so I wanted to save them some of the suffering or frustration that I felt with, like, passing along what I'd learned. But just as much, I realized once I started keeping track of them, I wanted to keep them for myself because I have to keep learning the same lessons over and over. Like, working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination or something that can be done at any time is often done at no time. And I have to learn that over and over. And as I was gathering these, I also wanted to push myself to really use the form of the aphorism. Now, I don't use the word aphorism on in the title or subtitle because nobody knows what an aphorism is. But essentially an aphorism is just a general observation about human nature that's attributed to a person. So there are proverbs like, you can't push a rope. That's folk wisdom. But with an aphorism, it's like Oscar Wilde said it or Warren Buffett said it, or Montaigne said it. But it's a very demanding form because it's very hard to write short. You know, like that letter where somebody said, sorry, I wrote you a Long letter. I didn't have time to write a short one and to, like, crystallize my thoughts in a very short way. So I. So both. I wanted to do both of those things. And so I started keeping this giant list of my aphorisms. And then from those, I picked out the ones that were secrets of adulthood.
- [05:44]
Zibby Owens
And some of these are other people's thoughts and some are yours.
- [05:48]
Gretchen Rubin
No, they're all mine.
- [05:49]
Zibby Owens
They're all yours.
- [05:49]
Gretchen Rubin
These are all mine? Yeah.
- [05:51]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So that's why it's not a quote book, right?
- [05:55]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, my gosh. I could do a quotation book. I have literally thousands of quotations. Like, that's one of my favorite things to do, is to collect quotations. So I would love to do that one day. But no, these are all from me.
- [06:08]
Zibby Owens
Now I feel like you're even wiser than I previously believed.
- [06:11]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, come on. But you may not agree with all of them. And that's kind of the fun of the aphorism, is because it's so short, it's easier to think about. You can sort of think, well, do I agree with what are examples that I see of this in my own life, or do I reject it? Do I disagree? Or do I have my own twist? Like, I was talking to somebody. One of the secrets of adulthood is we care for many people we don't particularly care for. And somebody who's a fellow writer said, well, we care about many people we don't particularly care about meaning. Like, people who write mean reviews on Amazon. We care about them even though we don't particularly care about them. So it's interesting how. Or like, working as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. I meant that, like, as a writer, sometimes, like, instead of actually writing, I'll do research. Like, I need to research this. It's like, three hours later now. Or a friend of mine is like, I'm rethinking my font. I'm like, let me jump in and say, that's not work. But he said, no. I think working as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination means that sometimes it's easier to keep working than to do the hard work of dealing with what's at home. And I thought, well, that's such a. So sometimes the ambiguity that comes from being so brief actually allows for more interpretation, which I think is kind of intellectually stimulating.
- [07:39]
Zibby Owens
They're all kind of a Rorschach test for what we're all going through.
- [07:42]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah.
- [07:42]
Zibby Owens
It's like when you Tell someone you're getting a divorce. Like, half the people cry and you're like, well, now I know a little something about you.
- [07:47]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Just kidding.
- [07:50]
Zibby Owens
Just kidding. If that was you. Yeah. To your point, on working, can I.
- [07:56]
Gretchen Rubin
Read a few of your answer? Yes.
- [07:57]
Zibby Owens
On working, in addition to working as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination, you said nothing is more exhausting than the task that's never started.
- [08:06]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, yeah. I suffer from that.
- [08:08]
Zibby Owens
What can be done at any time is often done at no time. And this is one of my favorites. Perfectionism is driven not by high standards, but by anxiety.
- [08:18]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah.
- [08:18]
Zibby Owens
And then finally, last one, we can talk about all these. One of the worst uses of time is to do something well that need not be done at all.
- [08:25]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, yes.
- [08:27]
Zibby Owens
Which is so good. Think about this on so many levels.
- [08:30]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's funny because a lot of these aphorisms come out of something that happened to me or a conversation that I had, or like something that I read or a tv. There's something that got me thinking about it, but part of the fun of an aphorism is kind of the drop mic quality where you just sort of say it and don't elaborate. A few of these have elaborations because I couldn't resist. But the story about that, what got me thinking about that aphorism was so my. If you listen to the happier podcast, you know, my sister Elizabeth is very, very messy. She's totally. She's clutterblind and she's extremely messy. And every once in a while she will graciously allow me to go over and help her clear her clutter. And she was, we were doing this and she had just giant stacks of unopened mail, which of course, like, threw me into a panic. So we're going through her mail and. And she's a TV writer, so she's a member of the Writers Guild. And one of the things that she had was she just had so many unopened statements from the Writers Guild. And so she's looking at these and she's like, okay, this is my plan. I'm going to open these up. I'll put, I'll get like, I'll buy a three hole punch and some binders, and then I'll arrange them chronologically and then they'll be really neatly on the shelves. And I was like, okay, but you've never opened these. Do you need them? Do you ever use them? And she said, no, but I might use them. And I said, yeah, but could you just contact the WGA and say, like, hey, I need my records related to something, or, you know, some time period. And she's like, yeah, I'm sure I could. So it's like. But she was, like, really getting ready to just spend hours in an organizational, you know, effort that she didn't need at all. Or people, like, somebody was elaborately alphabetizing their book. Their books. And, like, not to be mean, but I'm like, this is not a person who is going back and looking for a novel that they read five years ago. You know what I mean? It's not that kind of person. Like, are you sure you need to be keeping these alphabetized? You can if you want, but you don't really need to. I have to alphabetize because I'm always looking for things. But maybe you don't need to do that work, you know, it's always worth thinking about. It's always worth thinking about.
- [10:38]
Zibby Owens
And to your point earlier, you also have an eversm that says something like, if you haven't used something in, like, five years, you're okay to give it away.
- [10:46]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if you don't remember that you had it.
- [10:49]
Zibby Owens
Oh, yeah. If you don't remember that you had it. And I'm like, well, I remember that sweater. Where is that?
- [10:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [10:55]
Zibby Owens
Yeah. Time to give it away.
- [10:56]
Gretchen Rubin
I remember once I was helping my husband clean out his closet, and I was, like, holding up two pairs of pants at a time, and he would say, like, yes or give away. And I held up a pair of pants. He goes, I've never seen that pair of pants before in my life. And I'm like, well, I guess somebody broke in and put them in here because I didn't buy them. And he's like, I honestly have no idea where this came from. It's like, well. Well, either you now have a perfect pair of pants or, like, it's time to get rid of them. Because, yeah, if you don't know you have it.
- [11:24]
Zibby Owens
And shortening pants, too. Didn't you have something? Like, if you had.
- [11:26]
Gretchen Rubin
You don't. Okay, okay. So some people disagree with this. My secret of adulthood is if you don't like a pair of pants, don't pay to get them hemmed. How many people agree with me, right? Because somebody was like, no, 1,000%. You should get them hemmed because maybe they'll be fine, and then you'll have a whole pair of pants. I'm like, not in my experience, that never works. But anyway, so many people agree. But your mileage may differ.
- [11:50]
Zibby Owens
You have to hem, like, every pair of pants, and so it's hard to distinguish.
- [11:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, that's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.
- [11:56]
Zibby Owens
But, yeah, you can't throw good money after bad, right?
- [11:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, it's metaphorically true as well as literally true.
- [12:04]
Zibby Owens
Talk about anxiety, perfectionism and anxiety.
- [12:07]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's interesting because I write so much about happiness, people would often talk to me about perfectionism. And what's confusing and misleading about perfectionism is that people think like, well, if I'm trying to deal with my perfectionism, I have to lower my standards, but I don't want to lower my standards.
- [12:25]
Zibby Owens
And.
- [12:26]
Gretchen Rubin
But the fact is, that doesn't even really help because what perfectionism is, is the anxiety. It's like the anxiety of being judged. It's the anxiety of being done. It's the anxiety of, like, did I make the right decisions or not? Or have I not made a decision yet at all? Because I'm so worried about it. And so when you're struggling with perfectionism, you should really look to your anxiety. And dealing with the anxiety, not dealing with the standards, it's kind of a misplace. Well, another aphorism is the place that hurts isn't always the place that's injured. And. And I think perfectionism is something like that. It's misdirected attention. It's like, it's not the standards, it's the worry.
- [13:04]
Zibby Owens
I still don't totally get how that works in my body when, like, you fix something in your neck and all of a sudden, like, your leg is better.
- [13:10]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. They're like, it's your hip flexor.
- [13:11]
Zibby Owens
I know. I'm like, really?
- [13:12]
Gretchen Rubin
It was my hip flexor. It's always the hip flex flexor.
- [13:14]
Zibby Owens
It's always the hip flexor. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:16]
Gretchen Rubin
Or your rotator cuff.
- [13:18]
Zibby Owens
More the hip flexor for me. But anyway. Okay, here are a few more. These are on desire. Nothing attracts people's interest like the attempt to keep something hidden. Everyone wants to open the box labeled confidential.
- [13:31]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Well, and then I had a whole anecdote, which then I ended up taking out, about the Streisand effect. Does anybody know about the Streisand effect? Okay, so I'm going to get the details wrong, but essentially, the stray sand effect is the psychological phenomenon that if you try to hide something, you'll attract people's attention. So, Barbara, Stray sand. The California Coast Guard had taken a lot of pictures to try to capture, like, where the land because of erosion and whatever. And so there were all of these, just these pictures of the lake of Oceanfront property. And so Barbra Streisand's lawyers tried to get them to take down the pictures for her house. Now, before they had started this action, like, six people had looked at these images, like three of which were her own lawyers, and nobody was paying any attention to them. The minute they did this, of course, there was millions and tmz and everybody's writing about it because this is like, what is she trying to hide? So that's. So it is. But it's just the minute, if you remember, like parental warnings, like on TV or rated R, it just makes people want to watch more.
- [14:40]
Zibby Owens
Well, I have to say, I read this and then later I was writing an email and I was like, ooh. And then I changed delete, delete, delete on my subject and I wrote confidential.
- [14:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, that is a good one. That's a good.
- [14:54]
Zibby Owens
It was all you.
- [14:55]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, I can do that to trick my husband.
- [14:59]
Zibby Owens
He also said, nothing makes you feel like an expert more than a microphone. And here we are.
- [15:04]
Gretchen Rubin
And here we are. Yeah. No, it does. It really works. It really does work. And now we're going to take a short break.
- [15:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the Mill Food Recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet. Every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never, ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden and add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [16:36]
Elizabeth Craft
You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plans. Jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
- [17:09]
Gretchen Rubin
This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium Wireless plans@mintmobile.com Gretchen that's mintmobile.com Gretchen Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month. New customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. And we're back.
- [17:40]
Zibby Owens
Why did you not call this book Secrets of Life?
- [17:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Because. So I had this giant trove of aphorisms and I decided that I wanted to choose the ones where they would be like an answer to a perplexity that you face in adulthood. And life just felt more kind of general and more observational. But adulthood felt more like. Because, I don't know, I mean, like, I never feel like an adult. And a lot of other adults say they don't really feel like adults either. So it's kind of like this idea of adults as being the ones who are taking control and making decisions and doing things, whereas life feels more, I know. More general. It's funny though, because some of I have other aphorisms that I would call mere observations. Like a dog doesn't gaze at a waterfall, which is interesting, but it's a mere observation. It's not a secret of adulthood.
- [18:33]
Zibby Owens
Can they not see that far?
- [18:34]
Gretchen Rubin
No, no, because we look at a waterfall because we're like, look at the evanescence of beauty. Or like, what is the meaning of life? And a dog is like, they're not looking at, you know, they don't gaze at the moon or whatever. You know, I don't know.
- [18:48]
Zibby Owens
I have a soulful dog. But it's okay.
- [18:51]
Gretchen Rubin
But yeah, well, okay, you can disagree. And then I have my dark aphorisms, which are like bleak observations that I thought, oh, nobody wants to read these.
- [19:01]
Zibby Owens
So yeah, that'll be volume two.
- [19:04]
Gretchen Rubin
That'll be Gretchen Rubin, After Dark.
- [19:05]
Zibby Owens
After Death. Yeah, After Dark.
- [19:08]
Gretchen Rubin
It's more that they're judgy than that they're about death.
- [19:11]
Zibby Owens
Oh, okay.
- [19:12]
Gretchen Rubin
The aphorism is a very judgy form. Like, you really have to fight against just the judginess of it. And yeah, dark aphorisms are. Some of them are kind of judgy if I do say, you know.
- [19:22]
Zibby Owens
So I never thought of them as aphorisms, but I have a few, like, sayings.
- [19:26]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay. Yeah, that's it.
- [19:27]
Zibby Owens
Which is kind of cool.
- [19:28]
Gretchen Rubin
And there's room at the back for people to write their own, because a lot of times people don't realize they have them until they start reading them and they're like, oh, I have one. Okay, what are yours? I love that.
- [19:35]
Zibby Owens
I turn them into greeting cards, actually.
- [19:37]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, that's sweet.
- [19:37]
Zibby Owens
If Felix Doolittle, you can buy them. But anyway, one is always go to parties in the rain. Because those are always the best parties and nobody ever wants to go.
- [19:45]
Gretchen Rubin
That's a great.
- [19:46]
Zibby Owens
And then every time I'm reading, I'm like, oh, no, I have my saying, I'm gonna go. So it also forces me to go.
- [19:51]
Gretchen Rubin
That's true. That's literally true and metaphorically true.
- [19:54]
Zibby Owens
Yep.
- [19:55]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, I like that.
- [19:56]
Zibby Owens
Also, never turn down a glass of champagne.
- [19:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay. I have never turned down a cup of coffee.
- [20:02]
Zibby Owens
Oh, okay.
- [20:03]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Okay.
- [20:04]
Zibby Owens
That says something about both of us.
- [20:05]
Gretchen Rubin
That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. I like that. So, yeah, it's fine. And it's very creatively satisfying to write them down.
- [20:13]
Zibby Owens
Those are my only two.
- [20:14]
Gretchen Rubin
No, I bet you have more. I bet you. No, you don't have any. Related to reading. I'm like, always be willing to put down a book halfway.
- [20:25]
Zibby Owens
Well, this is more a quote, because my therapist once said. Well, my old therapist and I had time for therapy. Said, you'll never be. With a good book, you'll never be lonely. And that's probably not her either. It's probably someone really famous, like a folk wisdom. Yeah, but I paid her for that advice.
- [20:39]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, that's good. Well, clearly. Yeah. Yes. Yes. You're running with it.
- [20:44]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Millions of books sold. You used to be a lawyer. You made this pivot. You talk about this in the book as well. What does this feel like now? How do you keep it going? And to everyone else who's just trying to sell, like 300 books, how do you do it? What is the secret Secrets of writing Hood secrets.
- [21:05]
Gretchen Rubin
I have one piece of advice that I give to everybody who's trying to write, and that is to have something to say. Because if you have something to say, it's much easier. And this sounds kind of almost silly, but very often if you're stuck in writing, it's because you're really just trying to write words, you know, and then it comes very hard. It's very cliche. It's. It's awful. But when you really have something to communicate, even if your writing is bad, like, you have this feeling of satisfaction of like, communicating. I think it was somebody like John Cheever or somebody said that it was like, it's the pleasure of having news. Like, do you have news? And I think that's. And then you have to really know yourself about how to set yourself. This is my whole book, better than before, which is like, how to stick to a habit. Because I could tell you how I stick to habit, which is like, to write every single day. I did write from like 5:30 to 9:00am My most difficult writing because I'm such a morning person. But now I have a new puppy and so like, she's kind of messed that up, but worth it. But, like, I know that's when I do my best writing. So I always would keep that for writing, for doing original writing, which is the hardest kind of work that, that I do. But like, for many people, keeping a schedule is very useful, but for some people, it's like, actually counterproductive. And you should not try to keep a schedule. If you find yourself resisting a schedule, don't try to give yourself a schedule. Some people, desperately, they absolutely have to have accountability if they're going to stick to it. So they need a deadline. They need an accountability partner or writing group or a deadline or an agent who's asking them for stuff or a friend who's asking them for stuff. That's my four tendencies framework. So you can take the quiz on my site and find out which of these applies to you and it will tell you kind of like how to. How to use it.
- [23:06]
Zibby Owens
I last talked to Gretchen about the four tendencies and took the quiz. Then I had everyone in my family take the quiz and I have four kids and they all have a different tendency which all require different communication, different ways to explain everything. I'm like, oh, well, this explains a lot.
- [23:20]
Gretchen Rubin
Right, Right, right. It sounds like a lot, but it's actually easier because it's like, yeah, because then you're like, oh, now I understand, like, why this one won't do. Doesn't behave like that one. Yeah.
- [23:28]
Zibby Owens
I'm like, oh, it's okay. It's just Gretchen Rubin's rebel coming into a four.
- [23:33]
Gretchen Rubin
Exactly.
- [23:34]
Zibby Owens
All these frameworks you've helped.
- [23:35]
Gretchen Rubin
I love a framework. They say there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind of people who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't. And I'm definitely the kind who does. I love a. I love a. Are you this? Are you that?
- [23:48]
Zibby Owens
Oh, I should come up on the fly with, like, 20 of them for you.
- [23:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:53]
Zibby Owens
I can't, though.
- [23:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay.
- [23:56]
Zibby Owens
Okay. Are you a fiction or nonfiction reader?
- [23:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Both. I grew up totally on fiction, but now I do read nonfiction.
- [24:03]
Zibby Owens
Are you an edit? Heavily. Your podcast. Okay, I can't do it this way. Okay, okay. Talking about your podcast for a little bit, because you've had that for 10 years.
- [24:14]
Gretchen Rubin
10 years.
- [24:14]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.
- [24:16]
Gretchen Rubin
And we've never missed a week. We're so vain about that.
- [24:22]
Zibby Owens
How do you do a week when you're going through something really hard?
- [24:25]
Gretchen Rubin
We know that it's coming, and usually we do it week to week, but we will sometimes go two weeks in advance just to have one in a can. Yeah.
- [24:33]
Zibby Owens
And what is it about the podcast that brings you joy or that keeps it, why you keep doing it?
- [24:38]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, my gosh, so many things. Well, I do it with my sister. And, like, my sister and I had always had wanted to collaborate creatively for a really long time, so this is super satisfying that we found something. So it's just. Not everybody would want to be in business with their sister. But I'm very lucky that we're doing that. Actually, you know you're talking to Susie about Susie Welch's book. Yes.
- [25:01]
Zibby Owens
Okay.
- [25:01]
Gretchen Rubin
The values. So Susie Welch has this amazing. If you love a categorization values thing where you can go online and find out what your values are. And there are 15 values. And my sister and I both took it. My sister and I have the very same top five values in different order. But that's gotta be pretty unusual, right, out of 15 that you have the same top five. Anyway, so we're very much alike, so that's a huge joy. And then I love talking about this stuff, so it's fun to talk about it in a. Like, I can have an idea and immediately talk about it. Whereas a book, it's so protracted, you know? And maybe I have an idea that doesn't fit into whatever book I'm writing right now. So that's exciting. And you get so much response. So I feel like the world is my research assistant. My next book is gonna be about the empty nest, and people know that. And so people will say, have you watched this TV show? Have you read this novel? What about this study? So it's great. Or we'll talk about an idea and we'll see examples from people's lives or something we got wrong, or taking an idea and putting a twist on it. So it's very creative. Lis. Satisfying and fun. And Elizabeth and I are both writers because she's a TV writer. And so we're so fiddly with our writing. It's fun to talk about ideas and not worry about, well, is this a better verb or is that a better verb? It's kind of fun to just. Whatever verb you say you can use. Yeah.
- [26:29]
Zibby Owens
Interesting being in the public eye because you've become such an expert on so many things, an expert on happiness, if you can even achieve that, and an expert on just. There's so many different things. What does that feel like to you? Like, when you're walking down the street or when you're at a conference or whatever, one of the values in the grid is valuing that in and of itself, like being someone that gets recognized or can be respected.
- [26:56]
Gretchen Rubin
Luminous.
- [26:56]
Zibby Owens
Luminous. Okay, we're talking about now somebody else's framework.
- [26:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, yeah. This is Susie Welch's. It's the Welch Bristol inventory called Values Bridge.
- [27:03]
Zibby Owens
Obviously, I love a framework interviewing both of you, but what is that like for you? And does it help or hurt your work? Like, just how is it? Is it something you expected? Is it something very important to you?
- [27:15]
Gretchen Rubin
I certainly didn't expect it. I really enjoy it. Like, I like it when somebody. Because I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day. People kind of know that I might be lurking about, and so people will often stop me there. And I really, really like it. So I enjoy that part of it. It's funny, a lot of people seem to think that I would feel a lot of pressure to be happy all the time, which I really do not feel that pressure to be happy all or to behave well all the time because of the new puppy. My husband and I were. Because I am such a rule follower. I was like, they said, we have to do it this way or this way. And my husband said to me very gently, you're being very critical, and I don't like it. And I was like, okay, I appreciate you said this in a calm way because I'm getting kind of worked up. And now for a quick ad break. So we know a lot of you listening out there work in healthcare and wellness, first of all, because you probably don't hear this enough, thank you. Thanks for always showing up and doing what you do. Second of all, if you don't already know about figs. It's time. Figs entire mission is to empower people that work in healthcare by making the best of scrubs, apparel and accessories. Figs make super thoughtfully designed scrubs in high quality, innovative materials that are antimicrobial and wrinkle resistant, but still super soft and breathable. They're designed with the details of the job in mind, whether it's a scrub top with special stethoscope pocket or outerwear that's both lightweight and super warm. Because the office or hospital AC is never not on full blast, figs are the scrubs.
- [28:58]
Elizabeth Craft
In other words, and if you're a healthcare professional or if you know someone who is Right now, when you use code FIGSRX, you get 15% off your first purchase.
- [29:08]
Gretchen Rubin
That's wherefigs.com code FIGS R X for 15% off your first order.
- [29:16]
Elizabeth Craft
Let's talk about the Defender 110. It is a vehicle built for the modern explorer Gretch. I have a friend who's extremely adventurous and she loves her Defender 110. It's a vehicle that looks tough because it is tough. The Defender boasts an exterior design for optimum durability. It has a raised hood and sculpted grille that give the Defender 110amodern edge.
- [29:42]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, it has 3D surround cameras with Clearsight ground view that let you see underneath the vehicle and anticipate obstacles and rough terrain. Clearsight Rear View offers an unobstructed rear view even when you can't see through the back window. Driver aid technologies make driving and parking simpler. Intuitive driver displays are customizable to your journey. Design your Defender 110 at land RoverUSA.com Visit land RoverUSA.com to learn more about the Defender 110. Explore the Defender 110@land RoverUSA.com and we're back.
- [30:22]
Zibby Owens
Can you give us a quick preview of what to know about the Empty Nest?
- [30:26]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, interesting. I know you've got a ways to go. You got a ways to go. No. I'm so fascinated. Yeah. And anybody hit me up if you have any insights, observations, questions. What I think is interesting about the Empty Nest is that for many people it is a forced reckoning in adulthood. Many things that you've put off dealing with or have been kind of obscured by family life. And in any case, you have to sort of figure out, okay, well, what am I going to do with like the rest of my life? Because especially since people are living longer and living healthier, like, that's a huge chunk of time. So how do you Want to set yourself up. And what I've found is that a lot of people, even people who dread the empty nest, do not really prepare for the empty nest. They don't think about it in advance. Some people do very wisely, but a lot of people don't. There's a lot of things you can do to prepare, like set yourself up for success. And then I think my other big observation is that some people are fine or enjoy it, and I'm interested. Well, why are they enjoying it and other people are not? How do you account for these different responses? And then also for the people who are experiencing uneasiness, sadness, whatever, they're experiencing it in kind of a vague, general way. And I always think, identify the problem. Really understand what you're experiencing. And I'm realizing that there's a lot more clarity. And what I hope the book will do is really give people clarity. Like, this is what I'm experiencing. This is why I'm experiencing it. And therefore, what would I do? And it's good if you have, like, conflict with your sweetheart. So I was talking to somebody with the husband and the wife, and they were both saying, like, they were going through a tough time. And so the husband said to me, I am just so jealous of my son. I mean, he is off having the time of his life. Like, you know, I'm happy for him, but I see him, like, taking all these great classes, playing all the sports, going to parties all the time, meeting all these new people. He's gonna take a semester abroad. It just sounds so funny. He doesn't have any responsibilities. He's just, like, doing what he wants and Interesting, right? And his wife is like, I think we should get a puppy. And I was like, I mean, no, not for him for sure, because he's feeling. I'm burdened by responsibility. I feel constrained by my routine. I envy freedom, change, adventure, newness. It's like, okay, that's what he's seeking. Now, if she's like, the house is too quiet, there's no energy, blah, blah, maybe the puppy is right for her. But it's like, if you're a married couple, you gotta think about both of you and trying to understand how somebody could be experiencing something, a loss in a different way from you. And so then you can just be much more constructive in how you deal with it instead of. Because a lot of times it's like, don't you miss them at all? You know? Anyway, there's just a lot of misunderstandings because people don't understand how Other people could be experiencing it also. It's really hilarious. So I say there are 12 changes people might experience. Like. Like change in identity, change in purpose, change in the structure of time, things like that. But the funniest one is change in standards. People's standards change. Like, somebody's like, okay, my husband and I, we, like, eat. We. We eat in bed and, like, each watch our iPads, like, with our headphones in. I was like, okay, a lot of people just, like, eating cheese and crackers for dinner. They're like, like, I'm never cooking a meal again. But then other people are like, oh, it's no fun. A friend of mine said, like, it was no fun to cook for five. This one's a vegetarian. This one hates onions. Like, it was such a pain. And so I would just make simple things and try to get it done. But now it's really fun for me to make complicated, challenging things because it's just the two of us. And it's like a small, you know, I don't have to make a lot. And we can really suit ourselves. And so, again, it's like people are experiencing different things because they're coming to it with different expectations, different hopes, different desires. So it's all just very fascinating to sort through it.
- [34:40]
Zibby Owens
And Leary wrote about that in her book how she and her husband, Dennis Leary, once the kids left, would, like, walk around naked in the house all the time. Curse a bloody stream, like, nonstop, because they were never allowed to do that before.
- [34:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, walking around naked is something that many, many people talk about. I don't know how many people actually do it. Somebody said, my husband said he was going to cook dinner naked. And I'm like, just nothing like bacon that splatters. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know that I want that, you know? But that was, to him, freedom notion.
- [35:08]
Zibby Owens
That, like, all these people are like, if only my kids weren't here, I wouldn't wear clothes.
- [35:12]
Gretchen Rubin
I know, I know.
- [35:14]
Zibby Owens
I don't know. Maybe I'm just like a different.
- [35:16]
Gretchen Rubin
I know.
- [35:16]
Zibby Owens
I prefer clothes.
- [35:17]
Gretchen Rubin
No, I prefer clothes. I'm clothes. Positive. But like a lot of people, my college roommate was saying that the great delight of her life was so she. Her father lives with her and her husband. And so after dinner. No, during dinner, she and her father go and watch Brit box. So they, like, love a British mystery, and her husband watches sports because they. She was like, the family dinner was so important, but with just the three of us, it just. It didn't feel as important. And so we're doing this instead and we just really, really love it. And it's like, if that works for you. And that's like the fun thing to do.
- [35:53]
Zibby Owens
Good. You know, what is the pub day for that book? Because I will be pre ordering.
- [35:57]
Gretchen Rubin
No, I haven't even sold it. You know, I always do this thing where I'll write a huge amount of it before I try to. I feel like I can't describe it until I've written practically the whole thing.
- [36:06]
Zibby Owens
Go to the same publisher.
- [36:08]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. But they always want to know what I'm going to talk about. And then I'm like, I don't know, like, the only way I have ideas is like as I'm writing or a publisher just saying. Yeah, okay. Okay, good, good, good, good. Hold that thought.
- [36:20]
Zibby Owens
Just throwing it out there. Okay, I'll just close with this one. Since you closed the book with. Almost closed the book with this one. But if we take the blame when we deserve it, people will give us responsibility.
- [36:32]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [36:33]
Zibby Owens
Take that for what you will. I just did at random. Okay, that was a bad one. I'll do another one. No, it's not that it's bad. I mean. Okay, how about this? Every Strength contains its weakness, and weakness can bring strength.
- [36:43]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [36:43]
Zibby Owens
That's a little more uplifting.
- [36:44]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [36:46]
Zibby Owens
Great.
- [36:46]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, thank you so much for this. This is so fun.
- [36:48]
Zibby Owens
Thank you, Gretchen. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [36:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Thank you, everybody.
- [36:52]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the book.
- [37:11]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, we hope you're feeling happier after this episode. I am thrilled to share that Zibby's California indie bookstore is one of more than 100 locations across the country. Joining us for our first ever nationwide Read 25 Day on Wednesday, June 25th. The event will feature a special 25 minute silent reading experience followed by lively discussions about the books that we love as we have all year. This is part of our partnership with bookshop.org find out more@happiercast.com read 25 Day to learn how you can participate. And if you loved this episode, Totally Booked publishes new episodes every day with the best, buzziest and most underrated authors. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. From the Onward project.