More Happier: Have You Ever Felt Anonymous? Plus a Lesson for Upholders

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode: More Happier: Have You Ever Felt Anonymous? Plus a Lesson for Upholders
Date: August 8, 2026
Hosts: Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft

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Overview

In this lively and personal episode of More Happier, Gretchen and Elizabeth share small joys, reflect on habit-building and personal style, and dive into the theme of self-perception. Gretchen introduces her concept of “anonymous mode” versus “present mode,” prompting a discussion on how we dress and present ourselves in daily life. They also explore the Four Tendencies framework, focusing on the challenges faced by Upholders, and conclude with a classic “secret of adulthood.”

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What’s Making Us Happier

[01:29 – 12:45]

Elizabeth: A New Wordle Streak

• Achievement: Elizabeth celebrates breaking her Wordle streak record, now at 145 days.
• Habit Strategy: Gretchen highlights how maintaining a streak is a powerful habit-forming tool.

  “Any streak is good. This is one of the most helpful habit formation strategies.” — Gretchen [01:52]

• Wordle Tips: Elizabeth shares strategies, like using double letters or choosing start words like “slate” or “adieu.”

  “It can be very useful to do a double letter... The best thing to do is have a definite answer as to where a certain letter is.” — Elizabeth [04:01]

• Social Connection: They discuss how Wordle can serve as a shorthand “proof of life” to stay connected with family.

  “All you need is a thumbs up or whatever, so it can play that role too.” — Gretchen [07:09]

Gretchen: The Joy of Pop-Up Books

• Pop-Up Book Appreciation: Gretchen expresses her continued fascination with pop-up books, especially those by Robert Sabuda.

  “If you have not investigated the world of pop up books lately, oh my goodness. It has come so far from the days of yore.” — Gretchen [07:49]

• Gift Ideas: Pop-up books are recommended as thoughtful “coffee table books” or special gifts for children and adults.
• Childhood Nostalgia: Brief discussion of scratch-and-sniff books and stickers, connecting simple childhood pleasures with adult joys.
• Memorable Moment:

  “Of all the things that I appreciate, I appreciate pop up books. They make me happy. They're a happy thing.” — Gretchen [12:45]

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Main Discussion

The “Anonymous Mode” vs. “Present Mode” Concept

[16:12 – 24:49]

Personal Style & Self-Perception

• Gretchen’s Modes:
  • Anonymous Mode: Feeling invisible in public; wears comfortable, casual clothes, feels she “just am furniture on the street.” [17:00]
  • Present Mode: Feeling seen and present (even if not talking to anyone), puts on a proper outfit and minimal makeup.
• Family Contrasts: Their mother always looks “pulled together,” wears real outfits even for casual days, scoring high on “Beholderism” (valuing beauty).
• Elizabeth’s Experience: Relates to the concept, expressing discomfort when running into acquaintances while dressed “like death.”

  “I hate though then if I run into somebody I know, of course does happen.” — Elizabeth [19:42]

• Changing Clothes and Productivity: The sisters debate if dressing nicely at home affects mood or productivity; Elizabeth experiments with wearing "outfits" at home.
• Social Impact: Discussion on how dressing well can positively affect those around you.
• Memorable Quote:

  “I realized that I have two modes. I have anonymous mode and present mode. And these are just all in my head.” — Gretchen [18:00]

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Tool Spotlight: The Happier Newsletter

[24:54 – 25:37]

• Gretchen’s weekly newsletter offers tips, observations, and fun finds to help readers live happier, healthier, more productive lives.

  “Writing this newsletter is one of the most fun things I do every week.” — Gretchen [24:54]
  “Yes, I read it every week!” — Elizabeth [25:35]

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Insights for Upholders: Don’t Be a Rule Prisoner

[29:19 – 33:43]

Lesson from a Graduation Ceremony

• Upholder Downsides: Gretchen reflects on how Upholders can feel bound by rules—even when they don’t exist.
• Example: A high school graduate removed his mortarboard before speaking, surprising Gretchen (“It would never have occurred to me to take off the mortarboard” [30:54]). She realizes how rigidity can blind Upholders to easier or better options.
• Encouragement to Question:

  “I constantly need to be reminded: question the rules. You don’t have to follow the rules. There may not even be a rule.” — Gretchen [33:09]

• Elizabeth’s Agreement:

  “Even if something doesn’t matter, I’ll be like, but aren’t we supposed to do it this way?” — Elizabeth [31:47]

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Secret of Adulthood: ‘Forbidden Pleasures’

[33:46 – end]

Childhood Denials Become Adult Luxuries

• Gretchen’s Secret of Adulthood:

  “The forbidden pleasures of childhood often become the luxuries of adulthood.” — Gretchen [33:46]

• For them: pop-up books (rarely allowed as kids), and ordering sodas at restaurants.
• Memorable Quote:

  “I finally started sometimes ordering soft drinks in a restaurant because I noticed that you had done it. It still feels kind of illicit, I gotta say.” — Gretchen [35:19]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Any streak is good. This is one of the most helpful habit formation strategies.” — Gretchen [01:52]
• “Of all the things that I appreciate, I appreciate pop up books. They make me happy. They're a happy thing.” — Gretchen [12:45]
• “I realized that I have two modes. I have anonymous mode and present mode. And these are just all in my head.” — Gretchen [18:00]
• “Even if something doesn’t matter, I’ll be like, but aren’t we supposed to do it this way?” — Elizabeth [31:47]
• “The forbidden pleasures of childhood often become the luxuries of adulthood.” — Gretchen [33:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:29] — Happier news: Wordle streaks & pop-up books
• [16:12] — Anonymous vs. present mode: Dressing and self-perception
• [24:54] — Spotlight on the Happier Newsletter
• [29:19] — Lesson for Upholders: Questioning unnecessary rules
• [33:46] — Secret of Adulthood: Childhood pleasures revisited

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Episode Tone

The episode is warm, humorous, self-aware, and supportive. Both hosts candidly reflect on their habits and personalities, inviting listeners to do the same. The conversation balances personal anecdotes, practical advice, and a celebration of little joys—staying true to the “More Happier” mission.

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Useful for:
Anyone interested in habits, happiness, self-perception, or simply looking for gentle wisdom delivered with wit and sisterly rapport.

Transcript

[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen]

Hello, we're here for more Happier, a podcast where we get happier. Join us. It's the weekend. It's observations and reflections, but with a looser vibe and hey, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

Hi, Gretch.

[Gretchen]

Today we'll talk about an insight I recently had about people's self perception, including my self perception and a lesson for upholders. But first, something making us happier. Elizabeth, what? Is something making you happier?

[Elizabeth]

Okay, crutch, it's the little things. The thing that's making me happier right now is that I beat my own wordle streak.

[Gretchen]

Okay. You know I love a streak. Any streak is good. This is one of the most helpful habit formation strategies. People love a streak, but I don't do wordle. So what is a wordle streak?

[Elizabeth]

Okay, so wordle, as many people know, is a New York Times game where you have to guess a five letter word and that will keep track of your streak. And my previous streak was 142 days.

[Gretchen]

So that means you did it 142 days without missing a day.

[Elizabeth]

Right. And got it right. I mean, if you don't get it in six guesses, then you go back to zero. So it's not just doing it, it's doing it and getting it right.

[Gretchen]

It must be not impossible since you did it 142 times. It's easy to do it in four times, but it's hard to do it in two times. Or how does that all work?

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, I'd say four is the most common number that I get where I Will miss, and I think I speak for many in this is if there's a word where there are many different rhymes with it.

[Gretchen]

I'm thinking of river and shiver, but the word always has five letters.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

So it' always five letters, but if it's like giver, diver, quiver, it's just pure guessing at that point, right?

[Gretchen]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

But Anyway, I'm at 145 now, so I'm three days past previous streak.

[Gretchen]

Okay.

[Elizabeth]

Which that to me then means okay, I can lose and not feel horrible about it because I've beat my previous streak. Of course, what I'm going for is the year, but that's very tough.

[Gretchen]

And do you think you've actually gotten better at it or it's just luck of the draw of whether you. You guess K or L or whatever.

[Elizabeth]

I have gotten better because wordle will do an analysis every day of your guesses of each guess and tell you what would have been a more efficient guess.

[Olivia from Ollie]

Oh.

[Elizabeth]

So I really have lately been trying to think what would be a better guess here? What would give me better letters sometimes? By the way, here's a little tip I found. It can be very useful to do a double letter. So if you know there's an L, but you don't know where the l is, if you can put the l in two different spots, that gives you double the chance of having found it. And the best thing to do is have a definite answer as to where a certain letter is. That's the quickest way forward, obviously. Okay, so there is some strategy.

[Gretchen]

It sounds like hangman strategy, too, which is a game I used to play all the time, but I don't play at all. But it's like R is a better guess than K. Yes. So is it that kind of thinking?

[Elizabeth]

Yes. And then a big thing with people who play wordle is what is your starting word. What makes sense is to start with the same word every day because then you know your patterns and what your next word will be if certain letters come up. So my current word is slate.

[Gretchen]

Okay.

[Elizabeth]

And that came from Sarah. Now I was forever using salet, S, A, L, E, T, because that is the word that Bill Gates uses.

[Gretchen]

I don't even know what a salad is.

[Elizabeth]

I don't either. I looked it up and now I can't remember. But Sarah said she thought slate was a better word. So now I've moved over to slate.

[Gretchen]

It's the same letters, just rejiggered.

[Elizabeth]

Exactly.

[Gretchen]

Okay.

[Elizabeth]

And mom plays not as religiously as I do, but I think her opening Word lately has been craft, which is just a fun one.

[Gretchen]

Yeah. Since that's craft. C, R, A, F, T. Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

And it has a lot of good letters. C, R, A and T are all, all great letters.

[Gretchen]

So you're not trying to optimize for getting vowels necessarily.

[Elizabeth]

Well, that's why I like Slate, because it does have two vowels, but because

[Gretchen]

about would get you three vowels.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, about is a very common one.

[Gretchen]

I don't like games, but this is kind of appealing to me a little bit.

[Elizabeth]

You should try. Oh, another very popular first word. Adieu.

[Gretchen]

Adieu.

[Elizabeth]

Because it's a D, I, E, U, E, U. If I'm remembering correctly, that one does count.

[Gretchen]

This is a good thing, I think, for ice breaking, because this is the kind of thing that. Because it is so common that you could just say it casually to somebody. I think you were talking about this on Happier in Hollywood lately. Having some small talk, icebreaker topics. You don't even have to be as contrived as saying, like, do you play wordle? But you could just say like, oh, I'm so excited. Like, I just hit my wordle streak. So I'm patting myself on the back. And then a person could be like, oh, okay, fine. Or they could pick up the ball.

[Elizabeth]

Yes. No, it's true. And it is a thing that many, many, many people play.

[Gretchen]

One of the pieces of advice for the empty nest is that if you like to be in frequent contact with a child, but you want to keep it very, very low, touch, basically, so that they're more likely to answer you. A lot of people just sort of want proof of life. They just want an answer. To know that your child is looking at your text, they'll comment on their world. Is there a way to share?

[Elizabeth]

I've never done that, but yes, there is a way to share.

[Gretchen]

It's a thing that people will exchange or discuss in the vein of sending dog photos, cat photos.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, Sometimes like, I'll text mom. Oh, got wordle and two today.

[Gretchen]

All you need is a thumbs up or whatever so it can play that role too. Oh, fun. Well, Elizabeth145, I want you to try it. Okay. Well, I subscribe to the New York Times app and I know it's included.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Gretchen]

Is it a separate app or do you do it in the New York Times app?

[Elizabeth]

I have a games app, but I bet you could do it in the regular app. But I have just a games app. Then I play all the games. Connections, strands, spelling bee. I play them all every morning with my cup of coffee. It's my ritual.

[Gretchen]

That just sounds very pleasant and wholesome.

[Elizabeth]

It is. Okay, Gretch, how about you? What is making you happier?

[Gretchen]

Well, speaking of things that are pleasant and wholesome, I was thinking about how much I love pop up books. Okay. If you have not investigated the world of pop up books lately, oh my goodness. It has come so far from the days of yore. This is a place where I don't know if it's changes in technology or manufacturing or just the level of interest. There's so many cadult pleasures now which is like kid and adult. You can have an adult coloring book, but for whatever reason, there is just a lot happening in pop up books. I say I'm an underbuyer and listeners have gently suggested that maybe I'm not as much of an underbuyer as I say because I will buy a sticker book or as much as the next person. But I do find immense pleasure in these pop up books. Now, for a while, our mother had this Christmas tradition of giving us a Christmas related picture book every Christmas when kids were little and it was building out a library. And there's so many beautiful Christmas related holiday books. I really love this tradition and there were several years where she gave pop up books that were Christmas related. And that's how I became acquainted with the work of Robert Sibuda, who is clearly the towering masterpiecemaker in this area. He does a couple different kinds of books and some of them are like retellings of children's classics. Peter Pan, Alice's Adventure in Wonderland, wizard of Oz, I like those and those are very cool. But he has the series that are the winter series or the Christmas series. The night before Christmas, 12 days of Christmas, Winter's Tale. They are beautiful. They're very minimalist, Scandinavian looking, monochromatic, but so intricate, so beautiful, so original. But Elizabeth, I was looking up all the Robert Sabudo thing and I realized he had this one called America the Beautiful, which I had never seen. So of course I gotta order this for my collection. So this is Beautiful Landscapes of America. So of course there's the Statue of Liberty, there's the Golden Gate Bridge, there's the Mississippi river that has a huge steamboat. Just different landscapes within the United States all over. And again, very intricate, very beautiful. These are not the kind of pop up books that you would give to like a 2 year old. This is an appreciative, conscientious kid that would open the pages carefully and really relish the details. But they're so cunning and so original. I Just love them. Now, also, if you are looking for a good gift, I also found this when I was poking around looking at pop up books. There's a guy named Peter Damen who has a book called Pop Up Sculptures. And this is expensive. The Robert Sabudo books are not inexpensive. They range between like 20, $30. That's not insignificant. The Peter Dahman book is more like $50. So I would picture this for the right kind of person as a housewarming gift or a milestone birthday where it's something you wouldn't buy for yourself. And it's kind of a coffee table book.

[Elizabeth]

I was gonna say we've been talking about coffee table books and this sounds like a coffee table book.

[Gretchen]

Yeah. And it's a conversation starter. It's a little unusual. If you wanted to, if there was one that you really particularly liked, open up the pages and weight them so it would stay open. You and I are not fan of like the hostess gift and all that, but there's sometimes where you want to give somebody something interesting and unusual and cool. And then I'll also say if you have a child who's very interested in science or nature, there are a lot of really interesting pop up books. And like sharks, dinosaurs, things like that. And then there are also fairy tale ones where it's fairy tales, fairies, gnomes, pirates, things like that. And again, they are more expensive than your regular picture book. But I feel like it's a lot of bang for your buck. Like it feels very substantial and interesting.

[Elizabeth]

Well, Gretch, you've always loved the pop up book. I am a scratch and sniff book, David.

[Gretchen]

The Sweet Smell of Christmas. Best one ever.

[Elizabeth]

Ever. Best scratch and sniff ever.

[Gretchen]

Well, you know, I have been so far down that road, Elizabeth. I've wanted to do a scratch and sniff book myself for so long.

[Elizabeth]

You should.

[Gretchen]

I have looked into it in the mechanics of it, in the production and all that, and it's. It's not as easy as you would hope. Well, you had your magnificent scratch and sniff sticker collection, which I know still is in its basket in Kansas City. And I will go there and scratch the pickle and scratch the grape jam

[Elizabeth]

once they still smell. They still smell faintly, but they still smell.

[Gretchen]

They still smell. So I just was thinking, you know, of all the things that I appreciate, I appreciate pop up books. They make me happy. They're a happy thing.

[Elizabeth]

All right, Gretch, coming up, there's something you've been meaning to tell me. But first, this break.

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[Gretchen]

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[Elizabeth]

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[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen]

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[Elizabeth]

Okay, we are back. What is this thing you have been

[Ad Read Voice]

meaning to tell me?

[Gretchen]

Okay, so, Elizabeth, one thing about you and me, me more than you, but you and me both more than our mother, is how casually we would dress, I would say, to put it nicely. And our mother, who has very great fashion sense, even if she's just hanging around on an ordinary day, she's wearing what I would consider to be an outfit.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Gretchen]

A pair of pants and a top that goes with it. Real clothes. It's stuff that was like on a hanger. Yeah, she always looks pulled together and nice. Not that she's all dressed up. She might look very casual, but she's wearing an outfit. And I could tell that she's puzzled by my comfort level with just going about my day wearing the lowest level of athleisure that there is. So it is an elderly pair of yoga pants, a tired hoodie, a well worn long sleeve T shirt under my hoodie, my running shoes, and I'm just going about my day wearing that. Right. And she will sometimes say, meaning also

[Elizabeth]

out of the house. You go out of the house?

[Ad Read Voice]

Yes.

[Elizabeth]

Not out.

[Ad Read Voice]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth]

Your apartment. You will be tooling around New York in that.

[Gretchen]

100%. 100%. And she'll say things like, wouldn't it be just as nice to wear something nicer kind of thing. I don't know the version that you get of this, Elizabeth, maybe. And I started thinking about, well, what is the difference between the way I view it and the way mom views it? And it occurs to me, and I haven't talked to her about this, I should ask her, like how she views it. Well, part of it is she scored so much higher on Beholderism on the Values Bridge tool that I am obsessed with, as you know, everybody should go check out the Values Bridge tool. Beholderism is how much you care about things being beautiful. She scores very high. We score medium low, I would say, if I remember correctly. But I realized that I have this way of thinking about myself that I think explains why this is. I realized that I have two modes. I have anonymous mode and present mode. And these are just all in my head. Of course, if I'm in anonymous mode, I feel like I almost am not even present I am there. No one is seeing me, no one is looking at me. No one sees what I'm wearing. Nobody thinks about what my outfit is. It simply doesn't matter because I am so anonymous. I just am furniture on the street. It doesn't matter. So why not just be as comfortable as I am and why not just wear what I put on at 6am then I have present mode. And present mode is when I feel like I am present, even if I'm not talking to somebody, I feel that I am present. And in that case I will put on what I would consider to be some kind of outfit. Even at a minimum put on like lipstick and mascara and a little bit of blush. I might not do my whole makeup routine, but I would put on a little bit if I am present in any way. So listen, does this ring, does this ring a bell with you at all?

[Elizabeth]

It does. I like you will go out and do errands and stuff just looking like

[Gretchen]

death as is now.

[Elizabeth]

I hate though then if I run into somebody I know, of course does happen.

[Gretchen]

Of course, yes, inevitably.

[Elizabeth]

I always a question. I'm curious because readers or listeners will sometimes come up to you out and about and say hello.

[Gretchen]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

Do people come up to you when you're in your anonymous mode?

[Gretchen]

Yes, they have come up to me when I'm in my. Which is fine.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

No, I was just wondering.

[Gretchen]

No, they do. And you know when it, you know when it is the most. It's just like you say, you get voice recognized in Encino. The place where people will often come up to me is the Met. Because I think it's like a limited area.

[Elizabeth]

Right.

[Gretchen]

And people know that I go there. Yeah, it's open up a lot. But I do not feel present at the Met. I feel like I'm anonymous at the Met. So I wouldn't wear an outfit and do that. And part of it's cause I go every day. So like who can be bothered? Right? So I always wish that I looked nicer, but not enough that I feel like it's worth being present for that. But it's kind of arbitrary what I feel anonymous and what I feel present. Let's say I was gonna go to a huge book reading. Not a little one where it's 30 people or 10 people, but one where it's gonna be like a whole auditorium full of people. I don't know the person speaking and I don't know anybody else who's going there. And also out of respect for the speaker and the context, I would put on an outfit, but at something like that, I feel present.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Gretchen]

Whereas I still feel anonymous at the Met.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah. I don't think I feel this as strongly as you do, but I do relate to what you're saying. I understand what you're saying about feeling anonymous or present.

[Gretchen]

Okay. But so with off white delight, did off white delight also apply to when you were anonymous or was it only when you were present?

[Elizabeth]

Well, that is something I had to grapple with, now that you mention it, because I was trying at first to say I would only be wearing off white all the time, no matter what, and it just was not.

[Gretchen]

That's burdensome.

[Elizabeth]

Possible.

[Gretchen]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

I mean, obviously I wasn't going to wear off white to exercise, but.

[Gretchen]

Right.

[Elizabeth]

I was going to try to wear it at home and it just wasn't possible. So that. Yes. I decided to do it when I'm present. So whenever I go out, when I see friends. Yeah. You know, if we go to the mall, there are a lot of times that I am wearing all off white. I mean, as you have seen yourself.

[Gretchen]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

But at home, not as much.

[Gretchen]

Well, it's interesting because being on an airplane, I am present. I'm wondering, if I were taking a train, would I be present or anonymous? I think I'd be present. I think I'd be present on a train.

[Elizabeth]

I will say flying. I made a conscious decision that it would not be a good idea to wear off white on a plane.

[Gretchen]

Well, just because traveling is not a

[Elizabeth]

good time for an all off white outfit.

[Gretchen]

Off white is a demanding color scheme.

[Elizabeth]

It really is. In terms of showing dirt. I mean, it's an issue. It's an issue. Don't even get me started on how hard it is to drink coffee while driving when you're wearing all off white. I put a towel in my car so that I could put it over my shirt so I could have coffee.

[Gretchen]

That's a very LA problem.

[Elizabeth]

Yes. I actually have lately, Gretch, just as an FYI, been sometimes wearing what you and I would call an outfit at home just because I am always interested in what mom is doing and sort of emulating her. And so I have sometimes what I want to be in, like, a higher mindset than wearing jeans, which is our version of dressing up. So I have been dabbling in that. And I'm still on the fence of whether I think I'm more productive if I'm wearing an outfit like that because I'm sort of ready elevating myself, or if I'm less productive because I'm not as comfortable. So I'm pondering that question right now in my life.

[Gretchen]

Well, remember there was that month where we were like, 30 days of clothes?

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Gretchen]

Now it's an issue.

[Elizabeth]

Here's what I will say. One thing to think about for us is it is nice that mom is always wearing it.

[Gretchen]

It is nice.

[Elizabeth]

I enjoy seeing what she's wearing. It does for the other people. It is nicer that mom looks great instead of just wearing some baggy old pair of sweats.

[Gretchen]

No, it really is.

[Elizabeth]

So maybe we should do it for the other people in our lives.

[Gretchen]

And again, it's not that she's dressed up or looks uncomfortable. It's. It's comfortable hangout clothes, but it is an outfit. It does make a difference. I was gonna say, when she's around, I try to wear an outfit, but I have to say sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I just have to wear my normal. My normal stuff. Last thing on this, though, I will say is that it means that I change my clothes constantly. I'm constantly going in and out and putting things away, and that's a nuisance. Whereas I feel like if I just got dressed in clothes, then I could just stay in those clothes all day long. And as a consequence, I'm always changing, and that's a nuisance. So I just thought it was interesting that I realized how I had this distinction in my mind without actually noticing what the distinction was. But now I see the pattern.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, very interesting. All right, Gretch, what is our spotlight on a tool this week?

[Gretchen]

Okay, I wanna talk about my newsletter, which I love to do. Writing this newsletter is one of the most fun things I do every week. If you want ideas for how to make your life happier, healthier, more productive, more creative, if you want just fun things that I've spotted, things that made me smile, funny things I learned. Interesting SC my kind of stuff. More than a million and a half people now get this thing every week. It's every Friday. So it's observations, recommendations. There's a certain kind of thing where this is the only place where it can go. And it makes me so happy. I really enjoy doing it. So, happiercast.com newsletter, or you can just go to my website, gretchenrubin.com and sign up.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, I read it every week.

[Gretchen]

Aw, you're such a good friend, sister.

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[Elizabeth]

But first, this break.

[Gretchen]

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[Gretchen]

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[Gretchen]

been trying to say yes more to little adventures. Nothing huge, just getting out of the routine and going somewhere different for the day. And it really makes you appreciate having a car that feels solid and comfortable where you're not thinking about the drive, you're just focused on where you're going. That's what stood out to me about the Defender. It has that rugged design, but it also feels really thoughtful inside and I like that there's a full line outside up from the two door 90 to the 110 and the 130 with seating for up to eight. So it really fits different kinds of plans.

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[Elizabeth]

Gretch, we are back.

[Ad Read Voice]

This is interesting.

[Elizabeth]

What is this thing you've been meaning to tell me?

[Gretchen]

Okay, so this relates to the Four Tendencies framework, which, of course, if you don't know about the four tendencies, you can also go to my site, GretchenRubin.com, take the quiz, learn about upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. So I'm an upholder. And one of the things that is kind of a downside of being an upholder, and I think maybe also for obligers, but to a lesser extent or no, maybe it depends on the person, is they can be too bound by rules. They can see a rule when no rule exists. They can stick to a rule when it doesn't make sense to stick to a rule. They can not see that there's an opportunity to do something in a better way, because they don't even question their assumptions about standards, expectations, that kind of thing. And I realized that I had encountered an example of this because my nephew was graduating from high school. And so, you know, we were sitting in the audience and this speaker is coming up and speaking, and this other speakers coming up and speaking. And I don't remember if this was the valedictorian or a class representative. But anyway, one of the seniors from the graduating high school class got up. He stood at the lectern and looked down at his notes. And then he took a moment and took off his mortar board and put it on the side. Because the thing about a mortar board is it's kind of distracting, right? Because it's sort of weird the way it sits on your head.

[Elizabeth]

Oh, and the tassel can move. And I could see that it could block your speech.

[Gretchen]

If it flung forward, it could hit the microphone. It's a lot to have a mortarboard. And you've never had a mortar. I mean, how often have you had a mortarboard on your head? Not often, but when he took it off, I Got, like, a thrill in my body. I was like, whoa, he can just take off his mortarboard. He can just be on stage as a graduating senior, and in the middle of the ceremony, just take it off? Well, yes, of course he can. I bet not one person in the entire audience noticed except for him, because he wasn't distracted by his tassel and his mortarboard and the thing slipping and sliding around. The fact that it registered with shock to me made me realize it would never have occurred to me to take off the mortarboard. And that's an example of some of the limitations of being too much of a. A rule follower.

[Elizabeth]

Yes. I totally relate. You know, I'm a rule follower as well. And, yeah, even if something doesn't matter, I'll be like, but aren't we supposed to do it this way?

[Gretchen]

Yes.

[Elizabeth]

And I will strive to follow the rule to the letter. So, yeah, I also would think, well, this is what graduates wear, so therefore, this is what I should be wearing. I wouldn't make that bold. What I would think of as bold statement, but now that you say it, it's true. And it is good to question these things that don't matter.

[Gretchen]

And that's the thing that I think is the real lesson for me, which is it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to take off my mortar board. And I think that's the part that's a little bit scary for me, because if I thought about it and I was like, no, I would really feel uncomfortable doing that. That's one thing. Because then you're sort of questioning the rule, but then deciding, well, on balance, I just feel better sticking to the rule. But I'm like, there's rules that I'm not even noticing that I unquestioningly going on or, like, opportunities to make things easier. You'll be able to do a better job delivering this speech, which I'm sure it's this whole auditorium full of people. I'm sure the guy was nervous. Make it easier for yourself. Allow yourself to do a better job with just one less thing to manage. This is why I like being with questioners. Jamie's a questioner. Eliza's a questioner. This is why it's good for me to be around rebels, because I feel like I constantly need to be reminded. Question the rules. You don't have to follow the rules. There may not even be a rule. You may be imagining there is a rule where there is no rule.

[Elizabeth]

There is no rule that you have to wear a mortarboard when you're giving your Graduation speech. Certainly that is not a rule.

[Gretchen]

I know.

[Elizabeth]

Interesting.

[Gretchen]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Gretchen]

Lessons from a high school senior. I learned from you, anonymous graduating guy. I don't remember your name, but I will think of you often.

[Elizabeth]

Okay, Gretch, what is our secret of adulthood this week?

[Gretchen]

Well, I picked this secret of adulthood because of the discussion of pop up books. So my secret of adulthood is the forbidden pleasures of childhood often become the luxuries of adulthood. And I would not say that we were forbidden to have pop up books, but in our household, it was like. Like, they're expensive, they're not very durable, so we didn't get them. And so for me, there's kind of an excitement about a pop up. This is special. This is something we would have gotten from our grandparents for our birthday or something. You know what I mean?

[Elizabeth]

Yes. And drinking soda. Soda was always special.

[Gretchen]

Well, and especially in a restaurant. I mean, to this day, Elizabeth, if I order a soft drink in a restaurant, I just feel like, whoa, I am just living on the edge here. I am just throwing money around.

[Elizabeth]

I always order a soda. Soda at a restaurant. Yeah. It's something I enjoy even more because I never did when I was younger.

[Gretchen]

We weren't allowed to as children. And the forbidden pleasures of childhood often become the luxuries of adulthood.

[Elizabeth]

Indeed.

[Gretchen]

So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[Elizabeth]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. Bye, Gretch.

[Gretchen]

Bye, Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. You know, Elizabeth, I finally started sometimes ordering soft drinks in a restaurant because I noticed that you had done it. And I'm like, well, if Elizabeth's doing it, then I think it's okay for me, too.

[Elizabeth]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I ushered you into the soft drink era.

[Gretchen]

It still feels. It still feels kind of illicit, I gotta say.

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