← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
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- [00:02]
Shannon Watts
Lemonada.
- [00:17]
Gretchen Rubin
Hello, we're here for more Happier, a podcast where we get happier. A few weeks ago, I launched a Substack Live series which features my conversations with other writers and thinkers on about their own secrets of adulthood. And my inaugural guest was the terrific Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action, the nation's largest grassroots group fighting gun violence, an executive, highly engaged citizen and writer. And today we are bringing that conversation to you. I talked to Shannon about why it's important to ask yourself whether your life goals are your own or someone else's. The cost of indecision, and when to double back or double down. It was a fascinating conversation with Shannon. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Hello, everybody. Hi, I'm Gretchen Rubin. I am so excited to be here for the Secrets of Adulthood live video. First one. Shannon. Inaugural. First inaugural one. So I started a sub stack very recently and on that sub stack every week I'm going to have a secret of Adulthood teaching story where I tell a story or relate a joke or a scene from a novel, whatever it might be, and talk about a secret of adulthood that I think it illustrates. I've always loved Secrets of Adulthood and I'm really excited to have this newsletter as a way to have kind of a more reflective place to put those out into the world. And I'm also going to be doing these live videos with really thought provoking, fascinating writers and thinkers about their favorite secrets of adulthood because we can all learn from each other and I love hearing what other people's secrets of adulthood are. And I am extremely excited for my, as we said, first guest to be talking to Shannon Watts. Shannon Watts. You know Shannon Watts, she has worn many hats as an executive, as a writer, as a highly engaged citizen. She is, among other things, the founder of Moms Demand Action, the nation's largest grassroots organization fighting gun violence. She has her latest book that just pretty recently hit the shelves called Fired up how to turn your spark into a flame and come alive at any age. And that helps people discover their dormant desires, whether that's personal or professional or political. So, Shannon, hello.
- [02:39]
Shannon Watts
Oh my gosh, it is such an honor to be here with you, but most of all to be your first guest. I feel like this is the Gretchen Rubin show and I get to be the first guest. So thank you. Truly, I love your work so much and it's so wise and so thought provoking. So thank you.
- [02:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, well, thank you. And you've been on Substack for a long time, so this was really calming for me to have one of My secrets of adulthood is it's okay to ask for help. And so there were a few glitches, and Shannon was right there to kind of talk me through it, because, as we always say about technology, it's great when it works, and we're having a great experience. So what are secrets of adulthood? So when I talk about secrets of adulthood, I'm talking about, like, a one or two sentence lesson that we've learned from life, often the hard way, through time, and experience something that we really can reflect on and take forward as we're making decisions, dealing with the perplexities of relationships, trying to get ourselves to do something, trying to get ourselves to know ourselves better. Like, one of my favorite secrets of adulthood for myself is accept myself and also expect more for myself. I think about that all the time because I have to try to remember that. And a favorite thing that I've loved since the book has come out, Secrets of Adulthood, is that people will have their own. Will have their own take on one of my secrets of adulthood. So I get a new interpretation of it. But today, Shannon, I'm so excited to talk to you about some of your secrets of adulthood. You gave me a bunch, but there's a few that I want to make sure that we have time to talk about. Okay, so it's ask yourself if your life goals are your own or someone else's before you go too far down the wrong path. Like, this, to me, is an essential secret of adulthood. So put it in context. How did you learn this? How have you talked to people about how to put this into action in their own life?
- [04:38]
Shannon Watts
You mentioned this book that I have coming out on June 17th called Fired up, and I interviewed over seven years.
- [04:44]
Gretchen Rubin
It hasn't come out yet. I've known about it for so long that I felt like it was already out on the stands. Okay. This book hasn't even come out. There's been so much buzz around it. I thought he'd been out for like a month. Okay, all right. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:58]
Shannon Watts
Coming soon.
- [04:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Coming soon to a bookstore near you. Okay, good. All right.
- [05:03]
Shannon Watts
What was interesting, you know, I interviewed over 70 women, and so many of them said that they realized they were not living for their own fulfillment. And I talk a lot in the book about how, you know, women are often socialized to follow their oblig, fulfill their obligations instead of fulfilling their desires. And part of that can be that you are told from a young age, your parents, your family, even friends expect you to be a certain person. What was really interesting is a lot of women who are immigrants, in particular, right, to this country, whose parents are immigrants, who believe that the American dream is you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be an engineer, you're going to be a lawyer, whatever that is. And they're told, like, this is the path that you are on. And it isn't until they're trying to get through medical school or they've gotten the law degree and they're finally going into the corporate world that they kind of have this realization that they have spent a lot of time and energy pursuing a vocation that does not light them up, that does not make them feel fulfilled. And it's not to say that that's a waste of time. Certainly the journey is worthwhile. You learn a lot, right? But if you were to ask yourself that earlier, it might change the trajectory of what you do in school or the friends you make or the path that you follow. And I teach a lot of college classes, even the young women. When I wrote this book, I thought, okay, I'm writing this in many ways for women my age. I'm 54 years old. But it was interesting because the conversations I had with these young college kids said, here I am in college, and I'm not sure I know what I want to do. And I thought I did when I went in, but now I'm in college and I'm not positive. So my. My whole mantra is that we should be constantly asking ourselves, especially as women, what do I want?
- [07:04]
Gretchen Rubin
So true, right? It's.
- [07:06]
Shannon Watts
Do you agree with that? I mean, what's. What about you? Do you. Have you ever found yourself on a path where you were like, how did I get here?
- [07:11]
Gretchen Rubin
Are you kidding? I went to law school for all the wrong reasons. I can always change mind later. It's a good education. I'm good at research and writing. It'll keep my options open. So I think that this is absolutely key. And you might say, how do you not know what you want? It's like, it's extremely easy not to know what you want. So I think this is absolutely true. So here's my question for you. When you're asking yourself, what are some good questions to ask yourself? Or how do you get yourself to look into the mirror and see what you really want? Because our vision is so clouded by other people's expectations, or even just like, sort of expectations in the air around us. So how do you know if you are on that wrong path? You say, don't go too far down it. But, like, what are the warning signs like, hey, there was a fork, maybe you need to turn back and take the other fork.
- [08:04]
Shannon Watts
I think what we're talking about is living from the outside in instead of the inside out. So we get all of these inputs from society, from family, from friends, and we decide that is how we're going to live as opposed to looking inside and then putting that out into the world. And so that really is the whole ethos of my book, right? There's a formula for figuring this out. And I figured that out when I was 41 years old and I started Moms Demand Action. And then I held the hands and walked thousands of women through that same door. And here's what it is. You marry your abilities, your values and your desires. Your abilities, abilities, your values and your desires. And those will change throughout your life. So you kind of have to look at where you are. I mean, Bernie Brown is a very expert in value. There's even thousands of them. So what they are at a particular time of your life, maybe when you're younger, going to be different than when you're older. So the first thing I suggest is doing an audit of your values. You know, for me, when I started Moms Demand Action, I had very young children. And so it was protecting my family and my community. I'm an empty nester now. So, you know, my values are different. Not that those go away, but they're different priority abilities, those can be innate or they can be something that you acquire over a lifetime. And so auditing those and taking stock in what, what are the values that I bring. When I started Monster Man Action, it was after a decade long career in corporate communications, I could tell a story, I could build a brand, right? That was a unique ability to me. And then you might also realize during the audit that you have to go pursue some skills that you don't have yet that will get you to where you're going. And then the last thing are your desires to be honest about what do I want? And that doesn't have to be huge. It can be small, right? It can be a tough conversation or it can be something big like starting an organization or changing a relationship. So if we are, I don't even think many of us, especially women, ask ourselves, what are our desires? Because you know, imagine what would happen if we did. Systems would fail, institutions would crumble, families would fall apart, right? The system is designed to keep us from saying, what do I want? What are my desires? And so it is a practice. It's not like you figure those three things out and it's, you know, magic.
- [10:29]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, that. That's part of it, right, Is that you ha. It has to evolve over time as our lives evolve. So it's a constant process.
- [10:40]
Shannon Watts
Yes. It's a practice and you keep trying it. And then when you do do it, it is like alchemy. Right. It feels a little bit like touching the divine.
- [10:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, so it's say. Say it again. Abilities, abilities, values and desires. Excellent. Okay. Okay. That is so thought provoking. I love a formula. I think that's very clarifying. And we'll be right back with more with Shannon Watts.
- [11:14]
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- [11:31]
Gretchen Rubin
Images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing, meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you were looking for, managing your schedule, beating your deadlines, responding to Jim's long emails, leaving all the time in.
- [11:47]
C
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- [12:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Stay ahead.
- [12:10]
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- [13:25]
Gretchen Rubin
So another one that you suggested that I thought was very thought provoking was it's okay to end a relationship, including a marriage, if you're unhappy. Not all relationships are built to last forever. And I think this is very poignant because there is this. It's very. We are social creatures, we value relationships, which is really important. And that can make it hard sometimes to understand maybe why it needs to end. So put context in that and how do you think about that one?
- [13:57]
Shannon Watts
I do think you're right in that we value relationships and that that becomes part of the social fabric. But there's another component to it which is women are often meant to feel guilt or shame when they are in a marriage that no longer works for them. Right. I think of my mom's generation and how so many women stuck it out in relationships for a long time that just didn't fit and that weren't right. And I think there's an interesting conversation right now in the Zeitgeist. You know, books like Liz Lenz has written a book about this which is not all relationships go the distance. I married right out of College. I was 23 years old. My parents were going through a divorce. I think I was looking for a create a new family unit and we had three kids very quickly. By the time I was in my mid-30s, I realized if I had waited to marry until my brain was fully developed, this is not a person I would have chosen. He probably would have chosen me either. Right. And we ended that marriage and we were wonderful co parents and you know, we adore one another. But I found the love of my life because I found the courage to leave that relationship. And that was part of this process of saying, you know, what do I want? Is this a marriage I would want for my children? Is this an example I want to set for them? And the answer was no.
- [15:13]
Gretchen Rubin
And what are some questions if a person is thinking, do I recommit to this and really work to make it work? Or do I really understand that it's time to move on? Are there some kind of helpful ways to think that, think about that, frame that? Because it, it is a very large decision that a person would face.
- [15:33]
Shannon Watts
It's a huge decision. You know, if you can't afford a therapist, I recommend a therapist. When I came to a crossroads in my life and I write about this in my book, I found Myself in an emergency room, covered from head to toe in eczema. And it was not going away. And it was. It was really my body telling me from the inside out that.
- [15:52]
Gretchen Rubin
Interesting.
- [15:53]
Shannon Watts
Yeah, I was on autopilot and I kind of realized in the doctor's office that I was at a crossroads in my life, that if I wanted to get better physically, feel better mentally, that I needed to be honest. And I couldn't go home and confide that in my husband because part of the issue was our marriage. I couldn't afford a therapist at that time in my life. And so I began to journal and just sort of took account. I mean, we're talking a lot about auditing, which I think is interesting. You know, just sort of stopping and thinking and pausing, like what is working for me and what isn't applying the formula. And I really wrote a roadmap for myself, for the life that I wanted. And that life did not include that person as a partner.
- [16:35]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's interesting because research does show that keeping a journal like that really can help people make sense of their lives. There's something about the writing process where we start to think about causation and we start to look for patterns. And there is something about putting our thoughts, our feelings, our experiences into words that really does seem to help people, people find clarity and even kind of hopefulness that like things start to make sense. Or we start to say, like, that was really tough, but I learned an important lesson or I see what I gained from that, even though there were things about it that I regret or did, you know, don't look back on. Look back on with pleasure. So that's interesting. So do you still do that or was that something that was kind of like an emergency practice that helped you get through that, achieve that clarity?
- [17:21]
Shannon Watts
No, I'm. I'm a huge proponent and fan of journaling. And I'll be honest, the first time I did, I thought like, this seems like something people that are very woo woo do. And you know, that was not the case. I mean, I should know better.
- [17:33]
Gretchen Rubin
How old were you? How old were you then?
- [17:35]
Shannon Watts
I was probably about 35.
- [17:38]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay. Because I think sometimes people think, oh, people are bo. They've been, you know, some people are like, I kept my diary at seven years old and. But, you know, but you that you started as a full blown adult.
- [17:47]
Shannon Watts
I did. And I have found it to be so helpful to me. Another thing that I talk about in the book is, you know, managing my leadership, my ego, my self awareness through mom's demand. Action. I knew that this role power was going to be finite. I knew this wasn't going to be the rest of my life. I don't think power should be infinite. And so I would write about, like, what is my plan? How am I going to extricate myself eventually? Who am I going to hand the organization over to? And I could look back 11 years later and say, these are all the reasons that I had as a 41 year old for deciding that I wouldn't be here forever.
- [18:27]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, you know, my next project is going to be about the empty nest. And like a lot of people are asking me, well, how do I prepare for it? Like, you know, it's coming. This is a really good idea which I had not considered, which is start keeping a journal about. Well, what? Just to help you sort of sort through your thoughts as you know that a big transition is coming to help you start thinking through when it's still far away and you kind of are sitting in a calm, collected space and you can start working through all the big issues and keeping a record for yourself. I think that's a brilliant tool to think about.
- [19:06]
Shannon Watts
Are you still journaling?
- [19:09]
Gretchen Rubin
I write all the time. I'm kind of like, it's not a journal per se, but I feel like I'm memorializing my thoughts and experiences like constantly. But it's definitely how I process things. I mean, for me, my books, research is research. And so why do you think I'm writing a book about the empty desk? It's like, I think I need to process this. So, yes. So I'm a big fan of that. Coming up, we'll be back with more from Shannon Watts.
- [19:43]
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- [20:16]
Gretchen Rubin
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- [20:42]
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- [21:07]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, there's 3D surround cameras with Clearsight ground view that let you see underneath the vehicle and anticipate obstacles in rough terrain. Clearsight rear view offers an unobstructed rear view even when you can't see through the back window. Driver aid technologies make driving and parking simpler. Intuitive driver displays are customizable to your journey. Design your Defender 110 at LandRoverUSA.com Visit Land RoverUSA.com to learn more about the Defender 110. Explore the Defender 110 at LandRoverUSA dot com oh, but so I have a secret of adulthood that I want to share with you and I want to hear what you think. And I think that it's going to be one that, that you, you will. That will resonate with you. But we'll see. One of my, my secrets of adulthood is decisions will be made by choice or by chance because not deciding is a decision. Not choosing is a choice.
- [22:10]
Shannon Watts
Oh, I love that. And the reason I love it is because in part, the reason I wrote my book is I've met so many women who have such brilliant ideas. Right. They have strong abilities, they know their values, they have desires, but they don't act on them. They decide that they have to cross all the T's and all the I's before they can get started. And that is a decision when you don't act. Right. Because you have decided not to kind of pursue what you want. And I'm trying to encourage them to make the decision to do the opposite. Which is to act. Because to not act is a decision.
- [22:48]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes. Yeah. And time passes and opportunities pass. And one of the. I'm sure you know this research where with regret, we're much more likely to regret things we don't do than regret things we do. Because sometimes we don't do something because we're afraid we're going to regret it. But then you'll find out, like in the end, it's the non action that often causes more regret.
- [23:08]
Shannon Watts
Well, this is interesting because this dovetails with the. What you're talking about the book on the Empty nest, in a way. So as I said, I interviewed 70 women. When I said to them, what are you afraid your deathbed regret will be? What do you think it was.
- [23:24]
Gretchen Rubin
That I. I didn't take a bold step the way I wanted to.
- [23:31]
Shannon Watts
I thought it was going to be that, too. It was, actually. And these were mostly mothers. I'm afraid that pursuing what I want will come at the expense of my children. As if figuring out what lights you up will somehow make you a bad mom. I mean, these were like women from all walks of life, state lawmakers, celebrities, authors, stay at home moms even. And they were afraid that somehow going after what they wanted would negatively impact their kids. And I don't know if you feel this way. I'm on the other side of the chasm. My kids are, you know, 25 to 36. Not one of them ever says, mom, I can't believe you didn't go to that soccer game in 2006. What they say is, thank you for having other things in your life to focus on besides me. It took the pressure off. And thank you for setting an example of how I should live when I'm an adult.
- [24:24]
Gretchen Rubin
Right. Because example is much more compelling than instruction. And so telling somebody you should think about what you want and go for it, it's like, but if you're not doing that. Oh, that's interesting. Well, it's a false choice. And I think it's so easy in our minds to fall into a false choice. Even something as simple. Like, I tell myself things like this all the time. Like, I don't have time to go to the dentist. I'm too busy wr. As if those two things are incompatible. Yes, I can go to the dentist and write, but this idea that, like, I have to choose between my family and what I want instead of saying, how can I choose my family and choose what I want? There's something about the either or choice that I think, especially if there's something that is a little bit makes you uneasy or uncomfortable to think about, it kind of makes it. It makes it feel easier than it needs to be or than maybe we want it to.
- [25:23]
Shannon Watts
Totally agree. I love that advice.
- [25:26]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, so we're about to let you go. As we wrap up. Are there any kind of, like, is there a last secret of adulthood you want to suggest or some, like, quirky, Quirky secret of adulthood or hack that somebody's suggested to you along the way that you can think of?
- [25:41]
Shannon Watts
When I started writing my book, I kept being told by women, I wish I had A handbook for the blowback that I should expect when I live differently. I'm a little bit of an expert in blowback, Having started an organization around guns safety. You know, the threats of death and violence began immediately, and I had a choice. I could double back or double down. I obviously decided to double down. But I do believe, you know, if we're looking at each thing in our life as an individual, fire right there should be small and big throughout our lives. I think the amount that you can grow your fire is directly proportional to the amount of blowback that you can endure. And that's a muscle.
- [26:23]
Gretchen Rubin
Interesting. I love. What did you say? Double back or double down? I love that. That's wonderful. So anyway, Shannon Watts, thank you so much. Again, her book that's coming out, it feels like it's been out, it's getting so much attention, but it hasn't even hit the shelves yet. It's fired up. How to turn your spark into a flame and come alive at any age. It's out June 17th. She is traveling to many, many cities across the country. So if you. You can go. I'm sure you can go to many places online to find. But you can go to her substack, which is called Playing with Fire, if you want to get the whole. The whole calendar and see if she's coming your way. So thank you for everyone. We will be sending out a recap of this conversation to our audience with sort of some of the key takeaways. But, Shannon, thank you for being my first guest. You made it so easy and fun.
- [27:15]
Shannon Watts
This is going to go in my epitaph was the first guest on Gretchen Rubin's show.
- [27:20]
Gretchen Rubin
Thank you. Okay, everyone, thanks so much. See you next time.
- [27:24]
Shannon Watts
Bye.
- [27:27]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, hope you're feeling happier after this episode. I really enjoyed this conversation. Hope you enjoyed listening. If you're interested in more conversations like this, head over to substack and search for secrets of adulthood. You can also find Shannon substack by searching for playing with fire. You can also find both of our new books, Secrets of adulthood from me and Fired, how to turn your spark into a flame and come alive at any age by Shannon at your book retailer of choice. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now from the Onward project.