More Happier: The Joys of Working in an Office, Making Great Recommendations & Tom Cruise Cake

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode: More Happier: The Joys of Working in an Office, Making Great Recommendations & Tom Cruise Cake
Hosts: Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft
Date: October 18, 2025

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Overview

In this lively, reflective episode, Gretchen Rubin and her sister/cohost Elizabeth Craft dive into the pleasures and challenges of working in an office versus from home, the joy found in making and receiving personal recommendations, and the unexpected delight of the famed Tom Cruise white chocolate coconut cake. Drawing on personal stories and thoughtful insights, they discuss how routines, small adventures, and human connection contribute to happiness, all while keeping their signature playful and relatable tone.

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What's Making Us Happier (02:52–10:40)

The Tom Cruise White Chocolate Coconut Cake

• Elizabeth describes her recent joy in sharing the legendary "Tom Cruise cake"—a white chocolate coconut confection from Doan's Bakery in Woodland Hills, CA.

  • She explains the background: Tom Cruise sends this cake to friends, her mother once sent it to her family after reading about it, and it's become a memorable favorite.
  • “While we were there maybe like seven minutes and three different people came in and said, I want the Tom Cruise cake while we were there.” (04:05, Elizabeth)
  • The experience became a “thing” for family gatherings now, spreading joy and becoming a new tradition (06:14).

• Gretchen is equally intrigued and reflects that knowing someone loves something makes her curious too.

  • “If you just said randomly this is my very, very favorite kind of, you know, peanut brittle, I would be like, oh, I'm just curious if it's the all-time best peanut brittle.” (05:06, Gretchen)

• They both delight in supporting independent businesses doing one thing very well (06:49).

Gretchen's Puppy Taffy

• Gretchen shares updates on her puppy, Taffy, who at six months is “mostly house trained”—a milestone that's bringing happiness (07:12).
• She describes finding a “puppy cave” bed online that Taffy adores, and how these routines and discoveries bring warmth to her days.
  • “Every time I see her in there, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I want a puppy cave. I want to go snuggle into my own puppy cave and just, like, stick my head out when I take a nap.” (08:54, Gretchen)
• They discuss the changes a pet brings, how the family roles are rebalancing since her daughter went back to school, and how even city dogs can learn to find calm.

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The Joys and Sorrows of Working in an Office (14:23–21:39)

Elizabeth Misses the Office

• Gretchen asks Elizabeth about her recent substack post on missing office life.
• Elizabeth explains her world has shrunk since working from home; she misses social interactions, the motivation to dress up, in-person collaboration, and office routines:
  • “I just miss the people. I miss even just having a reason to put on jeans. Like… it just doesn’t seem appropriate. It just seems absurd to me.” (14:59, Elizabeth)
• They reminisce about rituals like walking around the studio lot, lunches, and spontaneous celebrity sightings in the entertainment industry—elements that simply don't translate to remote work (17:07–18:58).

Downsides of Remote Work

• Elizabeth highlights how relationships are less rich on Zoom; it's impossible to truly get to know colleagues:
  • “There are many people I have spent not insignificant amounts of time meeting with who I probably wouldn’t even recognize… because they just don’t register the same.” (17:57, Elizabeth)
• She notes the diminishing desire to go out as your world grows smaller, and how it becomes harder to break the cycle (19:04–19:36).

The Grass-is-Greener Effect

• Gretchen shares a literal twist: “The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... because when you look down at your feet, you can see like all the brown of the stems and the dirt underneath you. But when you look from the side, you only see the green spears of grass. That is literally true.” (21:39, Gretchen)

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Spotlight on a Tool: The Four Tendencies Framework (22:04–23:18)

• Gretchen revisits her well-known personality framework, "The Four Tendencies," originally introduced in her book Better Than Before and expanded in its own handbook.
  • “If there’s something you’ve been meaning to tackle… one of the ways that you might unlock it is to think about your tendency and how you might work with your tendency.” (22:54, Gretchen)
• She encourages using this self-knowledge for making or breaking habits, especially as the year nears its end.

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The Deep Satisfaction of Making Great Recommendations (26:13–33:08)

Why Recommendations Matter

• Gretchen jumps into the unique happiness of making a recommendation that truly lands:
  • “It is such a feeling of satisfaction, right?” (26:38, Gretchen)
• Elizabeth shares a story about a listener who tried the weight-loss drug Manjaro after hearing her discuss it on the show—and found significant success, losing 65 pounds (26:45–26:58).

The Ripple Effect of Good Ideas

• The sisters swap stories about book, podcast, and product recommendations that have “gone far and wide.”
  • Gretchen’s friend Sarah Lyle recommended a fascinating New York Times story (“Swim Bike Cheat”)—which then inspired Gretchen to return the favor by recommending the podcast Scamanda. Sarah promptly binged it:
    • “Omg, that podcast. I… couldn’t stop. I resented having to eat dinner and talk to Bill and then being forced to bed. What a story. And I can’t wait to discuss.” (29:52, Sarah via Gretchen)
• Elizabeth shares her pride in recommending the perfect book for a friend’s flight:
  • “I told her I came out strong. And I said, the Women by Kristin Hannah. This is the book that you should read on the plane, okay? And she did, and she loved it. So I was very gratified.” (30:37, Elizabeth)

The Value in Shared Knowledge

• Gretchen emphasizes the pleasure and connection in recording and acting on friends’ tips, and how this ritual builds closeness:
  • “If somebody recommends something to me, I’ll be like, oh, let me pull out my phone and make a note of that… People always have kind of a pleased look on their face. There is just something that is very energizing and self affirming when somebody’s listening to you.” (31:58, Gretchen)
• Elizabeth agrees, describing reciprocal book recommendations as a special friendship bond (32:37).

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Secret of Adulthood (33:08–33:46)

• Gretchen shares: “A quest is more fun than a jaunt.”
  • She explains that seeking out the Tom Cruise cake, or visiting a themed town, is more exciting when framed as a purposeful mission rather than just a random outing—a mindset shift toward more memorable, joyful experiences.
  • “A quest is more fun than a jaunt.” (33:12, Gretchen)
  • Elizabeth heartily agrees.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On office life and its loss:
  • “Now pitches are on Zoom, we’re not going in to pitch. So you’re not seeing Brad Pitt in the Netflix lobby.” (18:58, Elizabeth)
• On tackling life’s changes:
  • “When your world gets smaller… your inclination is not to go out and find ways to make it bigger. It’s more just to not deal.” (19:04, Elizabeth)
  • “It starts to feel like such a burden to put on makeup… To get in your car and go anywhere, you’re like, oh, gosh, who wants to deal with it now.” (19:42, Gretchen)
• On sharing happiness:
  • “It's very flattering when somebody follows your recommendation. I had a friend who wanted a book recommendation for flying to Europe, which I felt like was fairly high stakes...and she loved it. So I was very gratified.” (30:37, Elizabeth)
• On connection and knowledge:
  • “It makes you feel closer to someone where you’re like, yeah, I get you.” (32:49, Gretchen)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:52] – Elizabeth introduces the Tom Cruise cake story
• [07:07] – Gretchen shares about puppy Taffy and adjusting routines
• [14:23] – Gretchen prompts Elizabeth on missing the office
• [17:07] – Office rituals and what’s lost with remote work
• [19:04] – The shrinking world of working from home
• [21:39] – "Grass is greener" literal explanation
• [22:04] – Spotlight: The Four Tendencies framework
• [26:13] – The joy of giving recommendations
• [29:00] – Scamanda podcast recommendation chain
• [31:58] – Noting recommendations as friendship-building
• [33:08] – Secret of Adulthood: A quest vs. a jaunt

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Final Notes

This episode is rich with relatable observations on everyday joys—the magic of favorite treats, the warmth of shared routines (with both humans and pets), the nostalgia and energy of communal workplaces, and the connection forged through recommendations. It’s a warm reminder to seek out meaningful little quests, nurture genuine connections, and celebrate each other's happiness.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Lemonade foreign.

[C]

Hello, we are.

[B]

Here for more Happier a podcast where we get happier. It's the weekend. It's observations and reflections with a bit of a looser vibe. Hey Elizabeth.

[A]

Hi Gretch.

[B]

Today we'll talk about Elizabeth's desire to go back to the office and the joy of making a recommendation that really lands. But first, something making us happier. Elizabeth, what's something making you happier?

[A]

Okay, Gretch, what's making me happier is eating the Tom Cruise white chocolate coconut cake. Now I have to explain this.

[B]

Yeah The Tom Cruise. The cake. I need to know facts.

[A]

Okay, so years ago, there was this article about how Tom Cruise sends people in his life this certain white chocolate coconut cake from. From a bakery in Woodland Hills in the valley, which is called Doan's Bakery. When that came out, mom actually sent Adam and Jack and me one of these cakes for fun. And so we ate it and it was delicious. And recently, I was wanting to get a cake for Adam and his mom's birthday. Cause their birthday's one day apart. And he said, well, I've never had anything better than that Tom Cruise cake. Let's get that. So I went to the bakery in Woodland Hills and got it and took it to the birthday lunch, and everybody just loved it. And we got to announce, this is the Tom Cruise cake. And we had so much fun with it that it has given me great joy. And what's funny, Gretch, is when we went to the bakery to get the cake, we were there maybe like seven minutes and three different people came in and said, I want the Tom Cruise cake while we were there.

[B]

Okay, so here are my questions. First, how far is that away from your house?

[A]

Not that far. It's less than 20 minutes.

[B]

Okay. And then I've never heard of this. Is this something that people know about or is this a little bit of an insider thing? Like, is it surprising that three people knew about it?

[A]

Well, it must be that that is still circulating. This idea that Tom Cruise loves this cake.

[B]

Has it been talked about other than that one original article?

[A]

Not that I know of. I hadn't heard about it since now maybe it is. Or maybe for the last several years since that happened, people have just been coming in and getting this cake.

[B]

And it's honestly so good. If Adam is like, oh, I remember this cake from years ago.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sometimes it's not even that, oh, you're such a fan of Tom Cruise or something. Somebody, anybody says, this is my very favorite cake of all time. Just knowing that somebody else really, really loves something always makes me curious.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If you just said randomly this is my very, very favorite kind of, you know, peanut brittle, I would be like, oh, I'm just curious if it's the all time best peanut brittle. I'm intrigued.

[A]

And what was fun is when we were there at the bakery, we met the guy who always bakes that cake. And I was thinking, he must just bake that cake all day long, every day.

[B]

Was there a picture of Tom Cruise there? Like a headshot?

[A]

There was not.

[B]

And do you think that he Meant to sort of give them this royal seal of approval or.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, I think someone probably asked him, is there a gift you like to give? And maybe he said, I love to send people this cake. And it just took off. But it's nice for this bakery. I mean, it's a tiny bakery, Gretchen. It's really a small little bakery. So it gives me great pleasure both that the bakery has gotten so much out of this. It made me very happy to have the cake, which everybody did love, I will say. Even, like, Jack tends not to enjoy cake. He's not a cake person. He loved the cake. Now I feel like, oh, I can get this cake when we have people over. Like, it's like a thing.

[B]

And can you send it, though, by mail? When mom sent it to you, can you order it online?

[A]

What I don't know is if mom just ordered it and had it delivered because it was close to the house or if you order it from anywhere in the country. That's a very good question.

[B]

There's some cake, and I don't eat it because I usually don't eat sugar that Jamie sometimes gets. And I think it's from South Carolina and it comes in a tin. If you orders it online, every once in a while it just shows up. But that I think is definitely online. Cause it comes in the mail, but fun.

[A]

Find out what it is and tell me.

[B]

Cause I will. I will.

[A]

It's fun to seek these things out.

[B]

It is fun to seek these things out. And it is fun to support some kind of little independent business that is just doing something high quality and you want them to get the benefit of that. That's so fun.

[A]

Yes. So that's the white chocolate coconut cake at Doan's Bakery, if anyone wants to look it up.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

What about you, Gretch? What's making you happier?

[B]

Well, our Puppy, Taffy is six months old now, and she's definitely getting EAs.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

She is mostly house trained, which is great. And when I say she's mostly house trained, I mean she has not had an accident. But we are on her all the time. So we don't give her an opportunity to, like, use her judgment, you know what I mean? Or, like, wander off or, like, put her in a situation where she has to think, do I wait until I'm uncomfortable or do I just go ahead and go? So we're monitoring, and because she is a puppy, we do not let her Barnaby. We just let him go. Like, he can go wherever he wants. We know what he's gonna. So he just wanders around as he wants to right now. Recently, he had to have surgery. Poor guy. So he's actually locked in a room. Cause he's not allowed to jump on furniture, which we allow him to jump on furniture all the time. So he is kind of locked off. But usually he would just be wandering around the apartment. So we do not allow her to do that. Now, we know her ways. We know just how much walking she needs. We know how much sleep she needs. We know what treat she likes the best. We know she's got this funny toy that looks like a cob of corn with kind of a handle. That's her favorite toy. So we're like, oh, we want to give her some fun. We're like, okay, let's throw the corn cob around. And she'll go running after it. We got this thing. It's so cute. So she's a cavapoo. And Barnaby never did this. But Taffy will go under a chair and just lurk there. Like, she clearly liked that feeling. And so online I found this thing. It's like a puppy cave. And it's a dog bed, but it has sort of a loose top, sort of an open envelope. And she just snuggles in there like a cave. And you just see her little face peeking out, and it just looks so cozy. Every time I see her in there, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I want a puppy cave. I want to go snuggle into my own puppy cave and just, like, stick my head out when I take a nap.

[A]

So cute.

[B]

But so it's just a light bulb. And we're like, we know that she really likes that kind of thing. She really likes her snuffle mat. She likes these kinds of chew toys.

[A]

So now is she feeling like a part of the family? Like, integrated into the family? Less new.

[B]

Yeah, she feels much less new. And we're sort of like, oh, if she gets really bitey, that means she needs to go out. So we're reading her signals. We're in our patterns of when she barks in the morning. I'm the one who takes her out. Jamie always has to take her last before bed. We're getting into our patterns. Of course, everything is different now that Eleanor has gone back to school.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

That was an important helping hand that is now gone. So we. It's like having a kid where you think you've got it all figured out, and then something changes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She used to never, never bark, and now she's starting to bark. She doesn't bark like Nacho and Daisy, but she is starting to bark. Trying to understand the barking. It's never the dog's fault. The streets of New York City. Some dogs get really scared in New York City. Like, there's pedestrians, there's bikes, there's the sound of buses, there's sirens, there's trucks backing up so they're beeping. There's trash trucks, there's huge bags of garbage, there's tree wells, there's lots of other dogs. And so, you know, at the beginning, she had a lot of nervousness and it's really important that you help them become accustomed to it. And now she's like super chill. She loves saying hi to other dogs, but nothing fazes her. She's like a real city dog now. So, yeah, so it's all of the fun and she's more used to us and we're most more used to her. And she's just super cute. So that's making me happy here.

[A]

Oh, good. Well, I still haven't met her, Gretchen, which is crazy to me. I got to get out to New York.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Okay, coming up, there's something you've been meaning to ask me. But first, this break. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform built to help you stand out and succeed succeed online. Whether you're starting a passion project or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to build your brand and get paid all in one place. With Squarespace, you don't need to be a designer to look like one. Their cutting edge design tools and professionally built templates make it easy to create a site that feels custom to you. I love that you can start with Blueprint AI. It builds this personalized site in just a few clicks based on your goals and style.

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah, that's the great thing about Audible. They have whatever you're in the mood for. You can hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and yes, Rebecca Yarros and Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander, plus all the really steamy stuff. Whatever you're looking for, you can find the audiobook you will love. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com sign up/happier.

[A]

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[B]

Peloton IQ even tracks your progress and suggests weights that challenge you so you can get stronger. The new movement tracking camera allows Peloton IQ to count your reps and correct your form in real time, taking the guesswork out of your workout so you can train safer, lift smarter and make every rep count. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training tread plus at 1peloton.com okay Gretch, we're back.

[A]

What is it you've been meaning to ask me?

[B]

So Elizabeth, on your sub stack, your excellent substack, which I love to read even though I'm your sister. I'm like what can I possibly not know? And then I'm like oh that's so interesting. I have to remember to follow up and ask Elizabeth about that. You talked about how you were really yearning to go back to the office. You really missed the office. That makes sense to me. I get why you would. You're Very social person. You get a lot of energy from being around other people. But you also live in LA where the traffic is so awful. So, anyway, I was just curious to hear you talk through the pros and cons and what do you miss and why you said that, lightly said that. And it made me very curious.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, it's really about. I feel like my world has just gotten a lot smaller over the last few years. Working at home now, I want to say some people are working at the office. It's just the way things have panned out for Sarah and me. We have not been back to the office in a traditional sense. And I just. Yeah, I miss the people. I miss even just having a reason to put on jeans. Like I've been saying I want to get out of my athleisure and wear regular clothes, but I just feel, like, ridiculous walking around the house and just like an outfit, you know, it just doesn't seem appropriate. It just seems absurd to me.

[B]

Listen, saying it's you and I are this way. When we go home, our mother is always, like, wearing a nice outfit and she's always like, why don't you just put on something simple, you know? And I'm like, yeah, you're wearing, like, an actual outfit. I am wearing yoga pants, running shoes, and some kind of nasty T shirt with long sleeves.

[A]

Oh, and mom looks so good.

[B]

And mom looks so good. And to her it's like, why wouldn't you just wear her regular? This is our whole thing. Elizabeth's about when we were going to wear clothes. And it was such an effort to do it for 30 days. We did it, we did it, but we've never done it again. And that was years ago now. Yeah, that was years ago. But paint a picture of when I think of going to the office. What did that look like, sort of in its most standard format for you as a TV writer?

[A]

Well, I mean, I would get up, I would get dressed. Now, granted, I often just wore, like, jeans and a hoodie, but if we had a read through or a meeting with executives, I'd wear something nice. So occasionally I would be wearing a real nice outfit or we'd have lunch with people. So I'd wear a nice outfit for that. I'd go to the office. You know, Sarah and I share an office, so we would be hanging around, talking, working. Then I'd be in the room for potentially hours at a time with seven other writers. So that's talking, talking. We would order lunch. We usually ate lunch with other people. We would also go on walks around the lot, taking walks with people.

[B]

You know what? This is making me think, Elizabeth, what is like if we listen to old episodes of the podcast, walking around the lot. Like, that was a thing that you and Sarah talked about. There was a whole thing that we talked about, how to make it more efficient to order lunch. Like it was a big thing. Cause you're like, you can waste two hours of time with people fussing about whether they want the Cobb salad or the Mediterranean salad, but it's funny.

[A]

And now that's just gone.

[B]

That's not part of your day.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And we would have meetings with people, you know, for this or that, giving notes, getting notes. And now it's just everything is me walking in and out of our home office.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And there's just no change to it. There's no variation.

[B]

Right. Well, I do think, as somebody who's very extroverted, you do get energy from being around other people.

[A]

Yes. And I just like to get to know other people. I mean, you just do not get to know people on Zoom the way you do in person. You just don't. I mean, there are many people that I have spent not insignificant amounts of time meeting with who I probably wouldn't even recognize if I saw them out in the world because they just don't register the same. I've also talked about my sort of mild face blindness, so that's an issue for me anyway. But never having met them in person. Yeah. I just don't have a full picture of what they look like sometimes.

[B]

It was the glamorous part. Like, I remember I went to go visit you on the Disney lot and it's like, oh, there's the building. Where is it? Columns that look like Snow White and the Seven Dwarves.

[A]

Yeah, the Seven Dwarves.

[B]

And they had the bicycle rocks that were in the shape of Mickey Mouse head. And you're like, woo, I'm on the Disney lot. It just sounded so fabulous. I remember you'd go in for a pitch and you'd be like, oh, we were waiting in the lobby to go up and like this huge star walked by and it was like, celebrity sighting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There were a lot of mini adventures or little bits of things that made it feel memorable and fun.

[A]

Yes. And because now pitches are on Zoom, we're not going into pitch. So you know you're not seeing Brad Pitt in the Netflix lobby. Yeah. And what I've boiled it down to in my mind as I ponder this question is that it feels like my world is smaller And I don't like that feeling. And the thing is, when your world gets smaller, as you and I have discussed on the podcast, your inclination is not to, like, go out and find ways to make it bigger. It's more just to not deal.

[B]

It's to hunker down.

[A]

Yeah. So that's kind of what I'm looking at, and I want to work against.

[B]

It starts to feel like such a burden to, like, put on makeup or something like that. Or Zach, you're like, oh. To get in your car and go anywhere. You're like, oh, gosh, he wants to deal with it now.

[A]

I assume at some point I will be in an office for whatever reason, and I'm sure I'll long for the days when I worked at home, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'll be like, I can't believe I spend 40 minutes each way to get to the office.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But anyway, it's interesting. I mean, I think a lot of people are having the same experience. I mean, there are people now entering the workforce who haven't had a regular office job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They, like, work from home only, or. The vast majority of the time, I think of four days or maybe three or four days in the office. That would be nice. I'd like to still work at home some of the time.

[B]

Right. Sometimes in, sometimes out. So sometimes you're with other people and getting the benefit of that, and sometimes you're avoiding the LA commute, which is really crushing, I guess.

[A]

You always worked at home, Gretch?

[B]

Well, I worked my legal jobs when I was clerking, and then I worked at the Federal Communications Commission, and that was, like, a super intense job where it was big groups of people and meetings and lots of your first few jobs out of college kind of intensity. And. And it was super fun. And I remember when I switched to being a writer, it was very disconcerting for me. I also had a hard time, and I would always work outside my office. Remember, I tried to, like, work in a coffee shop or something because it took getting used to. And now, look, I do a lot of things where I collaborate with other people because I also am trying to bring in that energy of others. And there's just a flattening that comes from screens. It's just something that we have to take into account.

[A]

Yeah. And I do think that's why a lot of people are gravitating toward things where they see people. Like conferences and conventions and panels and live events. Yeah. Lectures. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is nice to just see people. But anyway, we'll see what happens. I'm sure you know I'll be complaining about being in an office soon enough.

[B]

The grass is always greener, as they say. Here's a fun just side fact. When you say the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, like in writing Life in Five Senses, it turns out that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Because when you look down at your feet, you can see like all the brown of the stems and the dirt underneath you. But when you look from the side, you only see the green spears of grass. That is literally true.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. Okay, Gretch, what is our spotlight on a tool this week?

[B]

Well, speaking of books that I've written my book on the Four Tendencies called With great originality, the Four Tendencies came out eight years ago. This is a book that came out of my book better than before that was all about the 21 strategies we can use to make or break our habits. Because using the four tendencies was one of the strategies. But then it just turned out it needed its whole book to describe it. So if you want to know more about the four tendencies, you may already know whether you're an upholder, questioner, or obliger or a rebel, but it's really useful to know how to get that information to work for you. And you know, we have three months left of the year, so if there's something that you've been meaning to tackle and it's just not happening, one of the ways that you might unlock it is to think about your tendency and how you might work with your tendency. And this book, you know, I wrote it to be like a real handbook. So it's full of strategies and tips for either being a certain tendency or dealing with that tendency, whether at work or at home. And you can find all about your tendency and all kinds of [e-mail] finishstrong if you want it all sort of pulled together. Or you can just go to my website and poke around. There's tons about the four tendencies there.

[A]

Yes, love the four tendencies. All right, coming up, there's something you've been meaning to tell me. But first, this break.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Okay Gretch, we're back. There's something you've been meaning to tell me. What is it?

[B]

This is just something that makes me so happy and so I just want to talk about it. So I think that something that is such a source of happiness for me is when I make a recommendation to someone where I'm like I think you will really like this. And then they follow up. Which is it's self satisfying because often people don't follow up. But if they do and they're like oh my gosh, I loved your recommendation. It is such a feeling of Satisfaction, Right.

[A]

Yes. It is so satisfying. You know what? This just happened to me yesterday.

[B]

What?

[A]

Somebody emailed us and said, because I had talked about Manjaro and said how great it had been for me that they had tried Manjaro, which is a weight loss drug, and they'd lost 65 pounds.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they said me talking positively about it was one of the things that made them decide to try it. So that was really nice. Now, I wasn't, like, recommending it actively, but I sort of took it as that.

[B]

Right. Well, she was interested in your experience, and that was helpful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The listener who told us about Los Olivos, and we're like, that's a great idea.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I just had a particularly happy experience. Okay. So, you know, I have my five Things Making Me Happy newsletter that I do every Friday. That just five things making me happy. And one of the things that made me happy because I just felt like this is the kind of thing that shows, like, a deep impulse in human nature, which was recently in the Tour de France, There was a biker who, in full biking kit, jumped into the race and tried to cross the finish line right ahead of the actual competitors. And of course, he was, like, immediately taken down. And it was a whole thing. But I thought when this happens, I'm like, ooh, this feels like a deep aspect of human nature. Like, that just gives me this feeling of satisfaction. So a friend of mine who's a New York Times reporter, Sarah Lyle, who's a good friend, she said, oh, I read your newsletter, and I want to recommend to you because maybe you'd be interested. This story that I wrote for the New York Times all the way back in 2016 called Swim Bike Cheat, about this woman, Julie Miller, who faked completion and winning a various triathlete competitions. So these were these grueling competitions, and she got away with it for years, but finally she got caught because she did what's called cutting courses, where you skip part of the course, but you pretend that you did the whole thing. But anyway, I immediately read Sarah's article. I was like, this is fascinating. But the thing that was most interesting to me was that they were trying to figure out why she had done it, because these are just, like competitions that people do for satisfaction. It's not like you're getting huge.

[A]

You're cheating yourself.

[B]

You're cheating. And that was literally what one of the people quoted in the article said. They're like, you're cheating yourself. There's no prize money. There's no Olympic gold medal. Like, this is just for you. So why would you do it? Well, it seemed from the article that one of the reasons she did it was that she was treated like a hero in her hometown. She was in her town. She was a minor celebrity, the person who could do it all. Motherhood, full time, work, her own business, training, winning. And so it was like, it sounded to me like she just really liked the attention and the affirmation that she got from it. So then I texted back Sarah, and I was like, hey, this reminded me of Scamanda. I'm like, actually, you may have been the person who told me to listen to Scamanda, but this really makes me think of Scamanda. And she immediately texted back, I've never even heard of it. What is Scamanda? I was like, oh, Scamanda is a podcast. You will love it. Okay. So then she texted back, fab, I'm on it. So if you don't know, Scamanda is a podcast that tells the story of Amanda Riley. Who was this? Just a charming, attractive young woman who pretended to have cancer to get sympathy and financial support from her church and from the public. And she had this big online following where she would document her cancer journey, but an investigative reporter uncovered it, and it seemed like a big part of her as well. She did get a lot of financial benefits and free stuff, but it seemed like what she was from listening to the podcast, which is my only source of information, it seemed like she really wanted to be a role model, an inspiration, and get all this positive attention for, like, her bravery and being a role model. Okay, so the next text I kept from Sarah is like, omg, that podcast. I only listen to them usually when walking around outside to and from things, but in this case, I couldn't stop. I resented having to eat dinner and talk to Bill and then being forced to bed. What a story. And I can't wait to discuss. And it made me so happy because I'm like, I knew you would love it and you did, and you listened to it when I recommended it, so that just made me happy.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It's very flattering when somebody follows your recommendation. I had a friend who wanted a book recommendation for flying to Europe, which I felt like was fairly high stakes because you want to be entertained. So I told her I came out strong. And I said, the Women by Kristin Hannah. This is the book that you should read on the plane, okay? And she did, and she loved it. So I was very gratified. And now she's always turning to me for recommendations for the plane. Cause I did right by her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it is very gratifying.

[B]

And then I had this thing where my trainer, my high intensity weight training trainer had recommended to me something that's called a trigger point self massage tool or it's sometimes called like a manual massage cane. It's like this plastic S shaped thing where you can get at your own the knots in your back. And he told me about it and I got it and I was like, mike, I loved it. It's amazing. And then I gave one to our parents and I was like, you will love it. And they love it. And then Jamie, Jamie's very hard to please. Often I will recommend things to him or I'll be like, you've got a headache. Maybe this would work. They kind of often don't. But even he was like, oh, this is really good. And it just fills me with such delight. I got a recommendation and I'm passing that recommendation along. It just feels good.

[A]

It does. And I got one of those for Adam based on your recommendation. So it's going far and wide.

[B]

I will post a link in the show. Not kind of hard to describe, it's got knobs on it. So you can do it. But one of the things, because this is true, one thing that I do to be friendly and to show my good feelings towards somebody else, and often because I honestly and, well, usually because I honestly want to do it, is that if somebody recommends something to me, I'll be like, oh, let me pull out my phone and make a note of that. You're telling me that this book is really good. I'm going to make a note of that title. You're telling me that this television show, you think I would really enjoy it. I'm going to write that down. And people always have kind of a pleased look on their face. There is just something that is very energizing and self affirming when somebody's listening to you.

[A]

Well, it's also like knowledge. Like somebody knows you and you know them. Like my friend Nichelle recommends books to me and I recommend books to her. And we just know what each other is gonna find entertaining.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that is just a good feeling.

[B]

No, and it makes you feel closer to someone where you're like, yeah, I get you. And Speaking of my Five Things newsletter, sign up for my Five Things [e-mail] newsletter if you're interested. Because I have so much fun putting together, maybe I'll put Scamanda in it. Because I don't think I ever recommended it. It's so interesting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, Gretch, what is our secret of adulthood today?

[B]

Well, this secret of adulthood is inspired by our discussion, because the secret is a quest is more fun than a jaunt. And so I would say going to buy a Tom Cruise white chocolate coconut cake is more fun than just going to buy a cake and going to a town like Los Olivos that it's all about olives and grapes. It's got, like, a strong theme. It's like you're going there for the grapes. It's more fun than just going to some cute little town. A quest is more fun than a jaunt.

[A]

Yes, I agree 100%.

[B]

So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[A]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. And if you haven't subscribed to Lebanon Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You get to listen ad free. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. Bye, Gretch.

[B]

Bye, Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Well, Elizabeth, you know what's funny is when I went to visit you on the Disney lot, you and Sarah had the same office, and you had your two treadmill desks, and that's like for your podcast for happier in Hollywood. That's why it's from the Treadmill Desks of. Because it really was this thing where there were the two of you on your treadmill desk writing and chatting away. I remember when you moved your treadmill desk back home.

[A]

Yep, me too. And I still have boxes in the garage of stuff from our office that was hanging on the walls.

[B]

Mm. Yeah. From the onward project.

[C]

Every day of this new administration, Americans are being told that they're less than and too divided to work together. So how do we move forward? I'm Stacey Abrams, and each week on my podcast, Assembly Required, we zoom out from the headlines to focus on the big picture in politics, culture, and tech, finding ways to fight back against tyranny with optimism and the concrete steps needed to build a better future together. Tune in to new episodes Every Thursday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.