Davey Havok Part 2: 2003 - 2025 (A HardLore Special)

Summary

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HardLore: Davey Havok Part 2 – “2003-2025: A HardLore Special”

A Deep-Dive with AFI’s Frontman on Mainstream Breakthrough, Creative Pivots, Industry Betrayal, and the Band’s Enduring Core

Podcast: HardLore
Hosts: Colin Young, Bo Lueders (with frequent interjections from David)
Guest: Davey Havok (AFI)
Date: September 25, 2025

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Overview

Part two of the expansive sit-down with Davey Havok explores AFI’s journey from their 2003 mainstream breakthrough (Sing the Sorrow) through a turbulent and experimental two decades, culminating in their upcoming 2025 album Silver Bleeds the Black Sun. Davey gives an unflinchingly candid account of industry challenges, major label debacles, the strain on his voice, creative breakthroughs, moments of utter despair, and the enduring relationships that anchor AFI. Hardcore/punk/alt lore and transparency abound, making this episode essential for both devoted fans and those interested in the evolution of heavy music in the 21st century.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sing the Sorrow: Breakthrough & Trauma

(00:00-07:56)

• Sing the Sorrow was AFI’s commercial peak and the only time Davey had to cancel shows, after severely injuring his voice performing songs beyond his range.
  • “It was our breakthrough to the mainstream. …I damaged myself so badly singing songs out of my range.” (Davey, 00:00)
• Davey recounts label issues prior to recording, being “cruelly held” in limbo, and the struggle of considering a major label move.
  • “We were being cruelly held… We never really wanted a manager or major label prior to that general time.” (Davey, 02:31)
• The choice to sign with DreamWorks is discussed, mostly due to the A&R rep Luke Wood rather than any label prestige (“Shrek” jokes aside).
  • “It actually had to do with the A&R guy, Luke, who I’m still very good friends with…” (Davey, 06:35)
• Jerry Finn produced the record with Butch Vig — Finn’s involvement was crucial despite his background in music the band “really didn’t like.”

2. Breaking to the Mainstream & Single Madness

(11:30-15:17)

• The behind-the-scenes of “The Leaving Song Pt. II” video: brought together hardcore scenes nationally, with a massive Mark Webb budget.
  • “Culture was there. Chicago was there. Salt Lake might have been there...” (Davey, 12:01)
• “Girls Not Gray” was the major label’s chosen single, but “Leaving Song Pt. II” took off organically via radio and Madden 03 inclusion—even if Davey was “conflicted” about being part of the game’s world.
  • “I remember I was conflicted about that... I didn’t like all…” (Davey, 15:26)
• Davey remains obsessed with Loveline, loving the opportunity to connect with that culture.
  • “I love doing Loveline. I did it multiple times. It was really fun.” (Davey, 15:43)

3. The Toll of Success: Voice, Regrets, and Recovery

(17:48-21:29)

• The toll of “Singing the Sorrow”: Davey damaged his voice, requiring vocal surgery and realignment of vocal technique and touring practices.
  • “I had to cancel the last 10 shows… I know I’m going on stage and I’m going to be bad and there’s nothing I can do about it, it’s very, very devastating to me.” (Davey, 17:48)
  • “Mine is very fragile… There’s this great book called ‘The Singer’s Talk’—some of these vocalists don’t do a goddamn thing… I do 45 minutes warm-up, steaming, stretching…” (Davey, 19:41)
• Revelations about the stress and pressure of writing and performing, and the need for boundaries:
  • “You will never see me out doing anything… speaking over music, that’s the worst.” (Davey, 21:01)

4. Decemberunderground: Pressure, Label Hell & “Ms. Murder”

(25:23-34:10)

• Following up a huge record with Decemberunderground became a “dark miserable time.” Over 120 songs were demoed, all met with lukewarm reactions by new label overlords Interscope (post-DreamWorks' acquisition).
  • “We demoed like, 18 songs, and that’s when shit got bad… Butch said, ‘I’m out.’” (Davey, 25:48)
• Jimmy Iovine’s indifference (“Rock is dead!”) and label pressures, including a suggested 50 Cent collab just to get attention.
  • “Collaborating with 50 Cent was suggested to me. … Not against 50 Cent, of course. It's just where the vibe was.” (Davey, 30:56)
• The paradox of mainstream success: “Ms. Murder” is their biggest chart hit, but the darkness of the lyrics completely misunderstood.
  • “That was the number one hit that poses the gentle question, should I just kill myself?” (Davey, 33:32)

5. Crash Love: Sudden Obscurity and the Changing Fanbase

(35:21-47:16)

• Crash Love writing was a return to joy, but its release was a commercial flop. The band couldn’t believe the sharp decline in attention (“12,500 tickets once, but suddenly nobody cares”).
  • “That record, December Underground, sold more the first week than [Crash Love] sold in its entirety.” (Davey, 42:01)
• Social/media changes eroded crowds and connection; reality TV and selfie culture overran music’s cultural center.
  • “Crash Love was…social commentary against that aggrandizing of celebrity and malignant behavior.” (Davey, 47:22)
• A striking anecdote: fans at a signing only wanted photos, not to see the band play.
  • “What are you guys doing here? We’re on tour… ‘Oh, no, it’s okay.’ Because what they wanted was a picture.” (Davey, 46:27)

6. Burials: Hitting Rock Bottom and Rebirth

(48:30-66:31)

• Post-Crash Love, Davey's lowest point personally and professionally, feeling ignored despite believing the band just made its best work.
  • “I wanted to die. … It felt very similar to what was going on with me personally, which was a sudden, unforeseen betrayal…” (Davey, 48:36/49:23)
• How friendship (Jade, “the King,” “the wolves”) and new management revived him. The “King” housed Davey in “the castle” for a creative reset.
  • “He says, move to the castle... All I need from you is to write a record. I don’t need nothing, I’m rich.” (Davey, 55:54)
• Burials channels that misery into art – and ultimately, despite little commercial success, the live show connection returns and crowds begin singing again.
  • “It was the epitome of catharsis for me. … It came back with Burials.” (Davey, 59:39/63:45)
  • “With Burials, it went back.” (Davey, 65:04)

7. Creating in a Declining Guitar World & Enduring Audience

(66:31-72:56)

• The return of passion and connection to an ever-enduring core audience, and what it means when crowds seem smaller but more vital.
  • “We’re playing empty rooms… but the live show...is the juice. That’s what I do this for.” (Davey, 61:34/63:07)
• Commentary on the sociocultural climate: “reality has become mind-altering,” with social media and lies polluting culture.
  • “We now live in a time that is mind-altering…” (Davey, 108:20)
• Davey’s vegan, straight edge circle (the “wolves”) lift him up; the sense of gratitude and love for those fans/friends is clear.

8. Ongoing Evolution of the Band: The Blood Album, Bodies, and Beyond

(68:07-90:07)

• Writing processes for The Blood Album & Bodies: a blend of self-doubt, changing styles, and continual growth.
  • “You guys are not a band that just does it again. There’s always some evolutionary leap.” (Colin, 90:55)
• Jade Puget’s central role and mutual trust in songwriting—a collaborative dynamic built on decades of creative partnership.
  • “Just pure trust… It’s not even a thought.” (Davey, 76:26)
• COVID-era disruption: Davey’s regret that Bodies had to be released without a proper tour, but pride in the record remains.

9. Silver Bleeds the Black Sun (2025): Intentional Mood, Restless Reinvention

(92:48–107:42)

• Arrival at the new album: desire to avoid repeating past work, to create their “moody record,” referencing influences as varied as Heaven Up Here, Swamp Thing, Pornography, and Love and Rockets.
  • “We can’t come with anything expected… I’m thinking heaven up here, Swamp Thing, Porngraphy-ish, maybe some Love and Rockets…” (Davey, 94:25)
• Davey wrote lyrics before hearing full music for the first time ever, reflecting lyrical experimentation and a fresh approach.
  • “This is the first record I’ve ever written where I was able to come to the session with complete songs.” (Davey, 100:23)
• The record is described as having a unifying, abysmal, and edgy mood, and Davey calls it “maybe my favorite thing I’ve ever made.”
  • “I think we did something better than what we set out for… I’m so in love with this record, I’m moved by it as if it’s not me.” (Davey, 104:51/106:14)
• Reflection on the album’s place in the world’s “uncanny, abysmal” climate—Davey’s art as catharsis and connection, particularly for the alienated.
  • “...my hope that I offer a connection for the isolated… that they feel a little bit less alone.” (Davey, 107:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Being Held Back by Labels (02:31)

“We were being cruelly. Cruelly held by. We were legally being held and cruelly held.” — Davey Havok

On “Ms. Murder”’s Hidden Darkness (33:32)

“That was the number one hit that poses the gentle question, should I just kill myself?” — Davey Havok

On Commercial Failure and Fan Disconnection (42:01)

“December Underground sold more the first week than [Crash Love] sold in its entirety.” — Davey Havok

On the Pain of the Drop-Off (61:34)

“We’re playing empty rooms, but the live show... that’s the juice. That’s why I do this.” — Davey Havok

When Punk Legends Become Mentors (81:18)

“You are certainly by far one of my biggest inspirations. [Peter Murphy says] ‘Kneel.’ … I hereby knight thee.” — Davey Havok

On the Need Not to Repeat (94:25)

“We can’t come with anything that is expected… I’m thinking Heaven Up Here, Swamp Thing, Pornography-ish, you know, maybe some Love and Rockets.” —Davey Havok

Record Release Timing & Vibes (111:13)

"The sound of the summer... Luckily, it's coming out in the fall. ... It's a fall record." — Davey Havok

On Art as Survival (107:19)

“…my hope that I offer a connection for the isolated…that they feel a little less alone.” — Davey Havok

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Essential Timestamps

• 00:00-07:56 – “Sing the Sorrow” breakthrough and trauma
• 11:30-15:17 – Single selection, video lore, and early-2000s relevance
• 17:48-21:29 – Vocal cord damage, surgery, and the cost of success
• 25:23–34:10 – “Decemberunderground” writing-hell and major label obstacles
• 35:21-47:16 – “Crash Love” flop, “despair faction” disconnection, societal shift
• 48:30–59:40 – Post-failure despair, “Burials” and the King’s intervention
• 63:07–66:31 – Live energy and the mystery of crowd disconnect
• 76:03-77:13 – The elemental trust in Jade Puget, the four-man core
• 81:18–83:06 – Meeting Peter Murphy and being “knighted”
• 92:48-107:42 – Writing Silver Bleeds the Black Sun, forging the band’s moodiest and most unified record yet
• 114:14–116:07 – AFI’s enduring physical art, Run For Cover label love, and the importance of passionate curation

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The Band’s Hardcore DNA—Davey’s Four Desert Island Records

(114:34)

• Germs – GI
• Minor Threat – Singles Collection
• Negative Approach – Total Recall
• Black Flag – Everything Went Black
  • “There’s 400 [great ones]... I could do like, the Dead Kennedys record…”

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Tone & Style

This episode is an open-hearted conversation peppered with dry humor, punk inside jokes, and genuine vulnerability. Davey’s delivery is earnest, occasionally self-deprecating or embittered when recounting industry misadventures, always deeply grateful for the musicians, fans, and friends who have supported him and the band. The hosts’ tone is reverent but playful, providing both fan-service and sharp, thoughtful questions.

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For New Listeners & Longtime Fans

This is the definitive oral history for understanding AFI’s journey from hardcore roots to mainstream icons and back. It demystifies band decisions, reveals the raw cost of creative ambition, and underscores how, despite industry churn and evolving scenes, integrity and friendship matter above all. There’s deep value here for any listener curious about the personal and professional cycles that shape lasting art.

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If You Only Listen to Three Segments

• [17:48] – Davey’s account of vocal injury, recovery, and what performing costs him
• [34:10] – Chart-topping “Ms. Murder,” the double-edge of mainstream success, and fan/cultural disconnect
• [92:48] – The new album’s conception, intentionality, and Davey’s reflections on art as connection

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Closing Words

“My hope is that I offer a connection for the isolated… that they feel a little bit less alone. I know that sounds trite...but it’s just true.”
— Davey Havok (107:19)

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End of episode summary.

Transcript

[Davey Havok]

For the trauma of singing the sorrow. It was our breakthrough to the mainstream. It was by far our biggest record at the time. It still is our most commercially successful record, our most popular record. And it was the only time I ever had to cancel a show because by the end of the tour, I damaged myself so badly singing songs that were out of my range.

[Bo]

2003.

[Colin]

2003.

[Bo]

2003.

[Colin]

Big year.

[Bo]

Big one.

[Colin]

This is when we. This is when we sing the song.

[Bo]

Big Year opened in the top 10.

[Davey Havok]

They're doing it right now.

[Bo]

They are sorrowing singing.

[Davey Havok]

What was it? Three?

[Bo]

You know, it didn't say. I'm sure I could have found it.

[Colin]

But three is insane. 174 to three.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, yeah.

[David]

Right, right.

[Colin]

This is exactly our very short. We've done an episode years ago about records we think are like, genuinely perfect in every way.

[Davey Havok]

Okay.

[Colin]

This is on that list.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Bo]

On March 11th, after school, I went to Best Buy and bought this cd.

[Davey Havok]

Best Buy?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Bo]

It was Best Buy. Tower was closed and that was the spot. But this is way after that.

[Davey Havok]

Best Buy.

[Colin]

Tell me everything.

[Bo]

Jerry Finn, four month recording process.

[Davey Havok]

What do you. Okay.

[David]

Yeah. You.

[Davey Havok]

Which one?

[Colin]

Start from the top.

[Davey Havok]

Same. Really? So long.

[Colin]

I want it all.

[Bo]

It's four months.

[Colin]

This is your longest as three years, I think your longest break for that.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

There's a reason for that.

[Colin]

There's also some nitro mix up and like, who's putting this out? Can we. Can we. Can we hear about that? If you're okay with that.

[Davey Havok]

Listen.

[Colin]

I'm listening.

[Davey Havok]

We wanted. Adam. Adam would love for me to. To really divulge the truth about what went on, but it's unflattering. Not to me, not to us. Understand? It's unflattering. We were mistreated and that process of mistreatment went on for a year, which is why it took so long to even begin recording. Because unlike that young gentleman at the other do not pass who let me by, we were at a standstill.

[David]

We were.

[Davey Havok]

We were being. We were being. We were being cruelly. Cruelly held by. We were legally being held and cruelly held.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

But it was at a time that we. We never really wanted to. We never really considered being on a major label or having a manager prior to that general time.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

And the only reason that we had. Well, a big part of not wanting to be on a major label was not an ethical thing. It was that we would have got kicked out of our home. Gilman street was where we came from, and we Knew that. But I mean, that's not exactly accurate at the time.

[Colin]

It's a different time.

[Davey Havok]

Well, at the time we were playing Gilman street, the prospect of being on a major label was ridiculous. We played hardcore music like there was no. It didn't make any sense. Like no one. We did get this crazy phone call from a major label on my answering machine. Watch. That was just laughable because everyone was trying to sign all the East Bay bands. They obviously had cranky Sharp, Sharp records. I mean, it was a real label, but it was. They obviously hadn't listened to us. I mean, it would just. Would have been ridiculous. But that was like, you know, 90 after Green Day, which is why everyone was doing that, you know, through the. Through the late 90s. But by. After the Art of Drowning, we had reached a point where we had just really outgrown the indies and we wanted to reach more people. And truth be told, like, the records that we sold on that independent label, we sold those records. We sold them on tour.

[David]

That.

[Davey Havok]

That was us being on tour and physically selling all those copies of the records and. And Fritch and Smith filling out the sound scans and that was sending. And so we really building up to the Art of Drowning. We did that and then, you know, we had such a presence in the underground that lo and behold, it. It charted way down on the chart. Started drowning. We wanted more people to hear our music.

[David]

And.

[Davey Havok]

We.

[Colin]

And how much is written of Sing the Sorrow by this time? Is this the kind of thing where it's like, we know what we have?

[Davey Havok]

No.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

No. So luckily, because that would have been more painful. We haven't even really started writing when we're trying to deal with the label problem.

[Bo]

So. Immediate roadblock.

[Davey Havok]

We're.

[David]

Yeah, we're.

[Davey Havok]

We're. Listen, maybe sometime we'll do a whole thing about it.

[Colin]

No problem.

[David]

Sure.

[Davey Havok]

Sure. Maybe. Sometimes I think you've shared a lot. We're being fucked.

[David]

But.

[Davey Havok]

But to. To answer. So then we end up signing to after we were very, very, very privileged position in that the industry, for whatever reason, decided they wanted us. Which is nuts when you consider what was being played on the radio at the time and what AFI sounded like.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Which is Art of Drowning. Right. They're signing us. They want to sign us all.

[David]

Every.

[Davey Havok]

Every major label and every major manager wants us based on Art of Browning.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Western. And they got to have it like.

[Davey Havok]

It makes no sense and they have.

[Colin]

No idea what's coming, which is so. What's so crazy, right?

[Bo]

Like a weird way of gambling and.

[Davey Havok]

Like, if you think of what's being played on the radio at the time, including Sing the Sorrow once it happens. Like, a lot of people associate bands with AFI because they shared technically aesthetic.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Similarities. But the sound, it wasn't anything.

[David]

No, nothing.

[Davey Havok]

Sounds that could be fit yet even.

[Colin]

Your contemporaries like you.

[Davey Havok]

Right.

[Colin]

It's different.

[Davey Havok]

Right, Right. It was just. It was just. It was just different for things for better or wor. Worse. At the time, it was for better for whatever reason. And we ended up deciding on DreamWorks.

[David]

And.

[Colin]

Was it because of Shrek?

[Bo]

You saw Shrek and you went, you know what?

[Colin]

It's 2001. Shrek 2001.

[Davey Havok]

Okay. Was that. At the time, yeah, it did not have much to do with it. They were separate.

[Colin]

I've always wanted shock.

[Davey Havok]

They were separate. It actually had to do with the A and R guy, Luke, who I'm still very good friends with, who I spoke with today and yesterday from the day before he signed us, he signed Elliot Smith. He tricked me into thinking he was Rick from Jimmy World. So I spoke to him before we were speaking to A and R guys. They were like, get away from us. Get away from us. Until we decided, okay, now we want to talk to you. Until we had had the conversation with our record label owner, Hay, who. He started the conversation, to be clear. He sat us down, said, I think it's time for you to leave. Right. When he knew we were going to say, hey, can we please go? And the story gets storied from there as it does.

[Colin]

How does this begin? How do you even start to tackle writing? Writing something like this?

[Davey Havok]

Same way as we always did.

[Colin]

That was. It was just, hey, let's do it again.

[Davey Havok]

It wasn't because, you know, with us, just. We made it clear to every label, okay, you don't get a say in anything we do. If you want us. You want us for who we are. None of this, in every label said that to us. Like, yes. And we believe them. And it was true. They just let us do what we wanted to do. So we knew, okay, we're just going to write the record that we've always wanted to write. Now that we have the technical resources to create what we. That is. I know it does sound a lot different than Art of Drowning, but that's where we were going.

[Bo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You know, there are. There's telltale signs because if. Because if we had had more time and more money.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

We would have made something more similar to Sing of Sorrow maybe. But, yeah, I don't really Remember too much about writing the record, but we wrote it in the same way that we wrote the other records.

[Colin]

But is there a conversation?

[Davey Havok]

No. Collectively, it wasn't like that.

[Colin]

This is natural.

[Davey Havok]

It was just like, what's next? Because we knew at that point still back then we hadn't done as much musically. And we all very naturally knew we wanted to go the way that. That we went electronics all over.

[Colin]

Yeah, Big Jerry Finn is the.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, yeah, Jerry. Jerry and Butch co produced the record. And Jerry was very, very hands on legend. And admittedly we met with a lot of producers and you know, Jerry had done a lot of music that we really, really didn't like.

[Colin]

But maybe you were the quarry the year after.

[David]

And how good did that fit?

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, exactly. So when our meetings with Jerry were like, what you got? Well, do you get this? Because you made this and this and this, and that's not gonna work.

[Colin]

And was it. Was it silver and coal that he heard where he was like, guys, this song's really good. There's some story I think I've heard.

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Boy, you'd have to ask a number of another member of the band. But as I recall, none of these. Maybe they had demos. Maybe they had demos.

[Colin]

He might have even been in the session. Like, you guys are doing that song.

[Davey Havok]

And he's just like, this is the one.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, that's probably. Jerry was great, man. I really miss him, man.

[Colin]

But absolute legend.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, he was. He was really great.

[Bo]

I remember seeing either pictures or a video of you in the vocal booth with posters.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, I would do that.

[Bo]

Ian Maz Henry, inspirations. What do you get out of that?

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, just that. Yeah, it was. I think. I think our. And our guy and the producers, you know, everyone that we work with came from the. The music past. And that was something that I think a lot of artists had done in the past. And someone suggested that to me, I think of building or maybe Jerry built me. He's like, hey, yeah, here's your vocal booth, like decorated. Oh, that's great. So I would go to Amoeba RIP on that record and. Yeah, on that record in December Underground and go and buy posters to of. My inspiration is to just be with you, be around the guys. Yeah, I had that experience in Australia recently where they're one of the venues we played. We went out and Green Day asked us to support them wonderful men who have had our back for many, many years. We played a headlining show and in the venue there was downstairs, out of the green room. Before you go upstairs. To get on stage. Down by the stairs, there was this giant statue of David. Well, there was like a life size statue of David Bowie in the Aladdin Sane makeup, but with like a Ziggy outfit on. And it was nice to have there. It's a nice thing, like for me when you're performing, to have the spirit of those people who have created me. Pave the way, you know, be nearby and remember, you know, why, why I'm here.

[Bo]

We got it. I would be remiss if we don't talk about the Leaving Song Part two video.

[Colin]

Tell me the broken ribs Sick of it all blasting from the speakers while. And Satisfaction, Philadelphia HC is moshing.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So we're in the trailer. I'm in the trailer doing my makeup. And so Oakland was there and Philly was there and Orange county was there. A couple Chicago guys. And LA was there.

[David]

Who else?

[Davey Havok]

Culture.

[Bo]

Chicago guys were there.

[Davey Havok]

Culture was there.

[Bo]

A couple of Chicago guys.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, Chicago was there.

[Bo]

And the culture.

[Davey Havok]

I was like, Salt Lake was there. Salt Lake might have been there. I think actually RJ and Nick Grimaldi.

[Colin]

I think he was told he could fly. 16 people.

[Davey Havok]

RJ was.

[David]

Yes.

[Davey Havok]

Okay.

[Colin]

So was the budget.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. Can you imagine?

[David]

Yeah. Wow.

[Davey Havok]

Crazy budgets.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Cool. Wow.

[Bo]

For a music video.

[Davey Havok]

Mark Webb. Mark Webb, who had made the Days of the Phoenix video and then went on to like make giant pop videos, made that video. And now he's, you know, very, very successful feature. Feature film director.

[Colin]

So this is like single of. Of what in your mind is the major label?

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Girl's Not Gray.

[David]

Oh, right.

[Colin]

That was first single.

[Davey Havok]

Well, that's the break.

[Colin]

But Leaving Leaving Song two, like, exploded. No, no, really, that.

[Bo]

I feel like I saw that video.

[Davey Havok]

So check it out. Maybe the video. But as far as single language goes, which radio performance you're talking about charting.

[David]

If.

[Davey Havok]

If we're talking about charting, Leaving Song two charted below Girls Not Gray because Girls Not Great charted three. Right. So it.

[David]

Chart.

[Davey Havok]

It started three. When it was apparent, which we never. We were never sure that we would have mainstream success.

[David]

That.

[Davey Havok]

That the mainstream would. Would be drawn to that record. When we made it and when it was coming out, we knew we had a shot.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And we didn't do anything artistically, purposefully to increase or decrease those chances. We just wrote a record that we.

[Colin]

I mean, that shows in Leaving Song too. I think it's extreme still. You're screaming all over it. And it's. And it's still.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Connecting with people that have never heard anything like.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, it did reach people, but.

[Bo]

Was sitting on stage in the tux.

[Davey Havok]

Tux. Yeah.

[Bo]

You're throwing a spin kick up there.

[Davey Havok]

I did.

[Bo]

You really did.

[Davey Havok]

I did. I have still my. But. But that wasn't supposed to be a single.

[Colin]

Girl's Not Gray, I believe I read was January 2003.

[Davey Havok]

No idea.

[Colin]

And then. And. And leaving song two was like eight months later or something.

[David]

Holy.

[Colin]

Like a long gap. But this gotta be release of things really.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

It's gotta be wrong.

[Colin]

Okay, good.

[Davey Havok]

So check it out. Seemed crazy because Girls Not Gray was the chosen first signal.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

By the label, by the management. We all were like, okay, cool. If you guys think that's the one. That's the one.

[David]

Sure.

[Davey Havok]

Bleed Black was supposed to be the second single.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

Do I look insane?

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Because I'm like now like wonderful.

[Colin]

You look relaxed. Which is okay.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

So Bleed Black was supposed to be the second single. We thought that that would. It has a bigger hook in it. We thought that would be the follow up. And then the third single would be Silver and Coal.

[David]

Which it was.

[Davey Havok]

Which it was. KROC started playing Leaving song part two organically. Now a radio station playing some back terrestrial radio. You're really much informed who was hearing songs. It very much informed the success of the record. That is not organic. That is all money.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So I mean every. None of this is organic.

[Colin]

I think it was in Madden 03.

[Davey Havok]

Sure.

[Colin]

Which I heard it mentioned, you know, which is odd.

[Davey Havok]

I remember I was conflicted about that and not conflicted. I didn't like all.

[David]

Sure.

[Davey Havok]

Didn't like it at all.

[Colin]

But that you probably got some.

[Davey Havok]

This is exactly what management said. You sound like a manager.

[Colin]

But I'm glad you did it, you know.

[Bo]

Listen, I do remember around this time you guys did a Loveline episode I loved.

[Davey Havok]

So obsessed I was whenever. I love doing Loveline. And after that I. Those. I've done many. Those guys would. Sometimes when someone would be sick or guests would fall off, they'd call me to just come in.

[David]

Really?

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. So I did it multiple times. It was really fun. Yeah, I really enjoy that.

[David]

We're big.

[Colin]

We're big. Our childhoods were like sneaking level.

[Davey Havok]

I was. I was sad that I didn't get to do it while I was on the tv.

[David]

Oh yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I do like being on the tv. Sure. It's not to say that I dislike being on the tv, that I dislike being played on the radio.

[David]

But football.

[Davey Havok]

That has nothing to do with.

[Colin]

No, that's fair 100%. But you were, you know, you've been jacked.

[Bo]

My notes are wrong here, I guess.

[Davey Havok]

Different.

[Colin]

Huge Madden guy.

[Davey Havok]

Respect to athletes, though.

[Colin]

Sure.

[David]

Okay. Couldn't be mean.

[Colin]

The B sides.

[Davey Havok]

I don't know. But this could be hard.

[Colin]

This. I mean, not even sides. Synesthesia is insane.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Colin]

Is there any inner conflict about that not making the record?

[Davey Havok]

No, I don't think about it at the time.

[Colin]

Amongst the entire. Is anybody in the band, like, really that one?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

No, because we. We would make those decisions at that time. Definitely. Because. Is that a single. Sorry. B side?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. So that was entirely our decision. I. I do remember it being. Obviously, since you've heard it, since it became a B side, that meant that we liked it and it was a hot contender for whatever reason.

[Colin]

It's insane.

[Davey Havok]

It's. I like that song.

[Colin]

It's unbelievable.

[Davey Havok]

I don't want to sing it.

[Colin]

It's hard to sing.

[Davey Havok]

It's hard to say. Yeah, but you do that.

[Colin]

That's what you do. You do stuff that.

[Davey Havok]

Even then I couldn't sing it.

[Colin]

But I'm glad you did.

[Davey Havok]

Well, thanks. Thank Jade. Because it would be the conversation like, I can't sing that. He's like, you sing it in the studio. There you go. So that actually probably be. If come to think of it, I probably voted to not put that song on the record for fear of having to play it live. Which in the end, all of that was very, very difficult to sing and put me in the hospital. Oh, in the end, yeah. It was very. For the trauma of singing the sorrow. It was our.

[David]

By.

[Davey Havok]

You know, it was our. Our breakthrough to the mainstream. It was by far our biggest record at the time. It still is our most commercially successful record, our most popular record to date, and it was the only time I ever had a Cancel a show because by the end of the tour, I damaged myself so badly singing songs that were out of my range incorrectly, that I had to Cancel the last 10 shows of the tour, which is. I'd never canceled a single show in my life. I don't do that. Like, I'll go up there. As I hearken back to Oliver Twist, the show must go on. I vividly recall. I think I recall the show. I think it was on Blood in Dallas, where I gave Dallas one of my worst performances ever. And they were so kind about it. I do have to remember that on those occasions they tell you not to say anything because the crowd can't tell, which I know is true, but I have to remember I said something then and I need to say something for Me, because I'm so ashamed of myself. Like at that point when I'm up there and I know that people have come to see me and they're expecting me to do my best or I just want to give them my best. In fact, I know they're not even expecting this or that. They just, you know, they're, they're there with me. But I really, really, really need to give my best out there. And when I'm damaged and I know I can't when I, when I physically, I know I'm going on stage and I'm going to be bad and there's nothing I can do about it, it's very, very devastating to me. But I mentioned it to them and they sang every word and, and they got me through it. But.

[Colin]

What, but did that, did that, like, shape the way you have to maintain your voice now?

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So that surgery. So I had. What is your.

[Colin]

What's your. What is the touring regimen? Is it two shows on, one show off?

[Davey Havok]

Oh, I wish I heard.

[Colin]

You're no air conditioning guy.

[Davey Havok]

Air conditioning is bad for my voice. I don't know that it's bad for everyone's voice. I mean, mine is very temperament. Mine is very fragile. I think air conditioning I found to be one that is generally noticeably damaging. I think there's something in the chemicals, the freon, that does something bad to the vocal cords. But, you know, there are some. There's this great book that an acquaintance of mine, Jason wrote called the Singers Speak or the Singers Talk. And it has chapters of some of the greatest vocalists in the world talking about their voices.

[David]

Oh, cool.

[Davey Havok]

And, you know, some of these don't do a goddamn thing. Some of them are up there smoking like Pavarotti, and then others are like me, which is 45 minutes of vocal warm up, physical stretching, steaming, just to make sure that doesn't happen to me again. But the thing about it is that I've really learned is if you have the technique, a lot of people very naturally sing correctly. And I never did. I very naturally back again to the choir conversation. I would purposefully hurt my voice. And so my muscle memory from being a very little kid will fall back to singing from my throat rather than from the diaphragm and the mask. And it's a matter. It was a matter of unlearning. And I'm still very, very conscientious and very focused about technique when I sing before and after. I never on tour. You will never see me out doing anything. Because speaking over music that's the worst. How damaging that is when we're doing this outside.

[Colin]

Like, what? During shows that we have to play.

[Davey Havok]

I would never do this if I were playing anywhere near. Just for fear I. I'm placing my voice correctly now.

[Colin]

You sound. Yeah, you sound.

[Davey Havok]

But you know how it go. You know how it goes.

[Bo]

In between this and December Underground, one little tidbit is you did. You performed Just like heaven at the VH1 icons, right? What a great video in front of the Cure.

[David]

How did.

[Bo]

Just Briefly, which aired on Halloween 2004, by the way, and was only one of four of those shows, is Metallica, Aerosmith and Cure and someone else.

[David]

How did that feel?

[Bo]

Was that difficult with them right there?

[Davey Havok]

I had been fooled. I fooled myself. I suppose I didn't even fool myself. I misunderstood the situation because I had been acquainted with Robert at that point, and he is so lovely.

[David]

Oh, good.

[Davey Havok]

Just a wonderful, wonderful, kind man. He is as lovely as he is talented and important. He's as lovely as he is important to music.

[David]

Great.

[Bo]

Profound.

[Davey Havok]

So immeasurably.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

New record. Incredible.

[Davey Havok]

Incredible. So because of that, I think I'm comfortable.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

And I see Robert before the show, and he's wonderful. And we know the song. I wanted to do Hanging Garden. Luke Wood, who I mentioned earlier, who signed us to DreamWorks, said, Are you out of your mind? You're doing. You're doing the hit.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And I'm like, you're such a corporate nasty. Fuck you. You're so disgusting. He's like, fuck, you're. This is not even. You're doing Just Like Heaven, which can't lose with the Cure, because they're all great songs. Just like Heaven is a 10.

[David]

Yep.

[Davey Havok]

I did want to do Hanging Garden. It didn't hurt us that we did. Just like Heaven. Oh, crushed it, but so I feel fine.

[Colin]

And Robert's out there just like.

[Davey Havok]

Well, that's the thing. Okay. So. Well, I don't. I don't know about all that. What I do know is that we go out and we start playing, and the Cure, he's on this dais in.

[Colin]

The center of the crowd, and he's in the full getup, you know, and they're there.

[Davey Havok]

It's the Cure.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Again, elevated. So I've got eyes on the Cure, and when I get out there, it's different. And we start performing, and I look, I realize, oh.

[David]

Oh, no.

[Davey Havok]

You're singing a Cure song to the Cure. This is fucking nuts. What the fuck? This is not appropriate. I had a similar experience When I sound checked, Billy Corrigan invited me to sing a Joy Division song with Smashing Pumpkins with Peter Hook.

[David]

Oh, wow.

[Davey Havok]

I had a similar experience there. It was surreal. Sounds about right.

[Colin]

Did you talk to the Cure after that?

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Were they kind about it?

[David]

Yes.

[Colin]

I mean, you killed.

[Davey Havok]

Said nice things.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

They should have.

[Davey Havok]

I didn't feel I did poorly, but I just. I just.

[Colin]

It's insane.

[Davey Havok]

I just wasn't emotionally. I didn't realize what was really happening because I was so comfortable with Robert.

[David]

Totally.

[Davey Havok]

And then there was. There was that.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And I. And I went, oh. Oh, you're. Yeah. You're very nice to me and warm to me and we're acquainted. And, you know, at that point. And still then I went, oh, but okay. Like, you. You made me up and I'm singing you your song. This is a bad idea. Like, whose idea was this?

[Colin]

It's a turn to work. Miraculously, I agreed.

[Davey Havok]

Agreed.

[Colin]

Thank God. Or thanks somebody. Next year is 20 years of December underground.

[Davey Havok]

Next year is 20 years of snow, which is.

[Colin]

That's crazy for me to say.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Same Colin. Jesus.

[Colin]

Once again, Jerry Finn's at the helm. The great Jerry Finn.

[Davey Havok]

God, he was great.

[Colin]

Let's. Let's talk about this record. You have to follow up. The Beast.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, it was Misery. Yeah, it was bad, sure.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Just the pressure that you put on yourself.

[Davey Havok]

The pressure was bad.

[Colin]

120 songs demoed and written for probably.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Is that what we said? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. It was. It got really bad. It got really dark. It was not fun. We proceeded on that journey as we always had at the beginning, and we demoed, like, 18 songs, and that's when shit got bad. Don't quote me on the number. We demoed. And we're thinking, okay, yeah, we just do what we always do. And Butch said, I'm out.

[David]

Whoa.

[Davey Havok]

And we're like, okay. And everyone's reaction to the demoed songs was not the normal.

[Bo]

No kidding.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I don't know.

[Colin]

Based. This is based on the songs, which is like, yeah, I don't think, like, this is.

[Davey Havok]

That. They were like, nah, try more.

[David]

And.

[Davey Havok]

And that did not positively affect the writing process from there on. Yeah, it was not a good time.

[Colin]

I mean, lyrically, the record.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Describes that.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Like, it's. It's so dark and somber.

[Davey Havok]

It was. It was not a happy time for me. Meanwhile, personally, when I was making the record, when we were down here recording the record, by the time we were recording it, it was. By the time we agreed upon the songs. And recording it. Once we said, okay, we're going to make this record, it got a lot emotionally better for me because we were finally making the record. We finally had the songs. We Finally.

[Colin]

And DreamWorks. How is working with them at this time on this? Because they're on.

[Davey Havok]

I wanted to kill him.

[David]

Him.

[Davey Havok]

Okay, well, no. So it's not DreamWorks. That was another big part of the problem. But no, Colin, you're right to say that, because that was a big. That was also a part of the issue. The pressure was even greater than following up our first commercial success. Yeah, it was. David Geffen had sold DreamWorks to Interscope Records.

[Colin]

David Geffen himself.

[Davey Havok]

David Geffen is.

[Colin]

He made Beetlejuice.

[Davey Havok]

David's. David of his. David of the Just breathtaking art collection. Geffen was like, why would I have a record label? This is a dying industry. Let me sell it to interscope. So suddenly, AFI was on a label that 12 months prior, 15 months prior, we'd passed on.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Luckily. And it already. So it already happened. It happened at the end of Seeing the Sorrow.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

To talk about commercial success, everyone's expectation, once the ball has started rolling, to use a sports term, which is referencing bowling.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Soccer. Bowling.

[Davey Havok]

Bowling.

[Bo]

I would have imagined skeeball.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

They roll to reference my favorite sport, which results in stuffed animals. If you're good at it, Skeeball. Once the ball started rolling, there was a hope of achieving more commercially with Sing Asaro and reaching more people, of course, because the music that was being played on alternative radio at the time was outselling us, thereby pointing like, you could be selling a lot more records. But what happened was, shortly after, or right before Silver and Cold was dropped as a single, David sold the label to. We had headlined. I think we had come around and we had headlined at the end of Sing of Sorrow. Toward the end of Sing of Sorrow, the Gibson, which was the greatest amphitheater you guys did you guys get to go there? So we headlined the Gibson, but it was backstage at the Gibson where I was already bereft and lying on the fainting chair because I had, like, a sinus infection. I felt I hadn't done well. And our management had a strange tone about them. What's going on? Well, David sold the label to Interscope. Like we knew what those words meant. But again, we're coming from where we came from and we're new to all this, and we still don't really know what that means, but we knew it probably wasn't good. And everybody at dreamworks disappeared. Except luckily, Our A and R guy, Luke and Ed, his assistant. So they came over.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

So the A and R guy who I said I wanted to kill.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

The reason I wanted to kill him is because he is a nasty, nasty fucking motherfucker A and R guy. But he's also an artist and he also understands music. Like I said, he signed Elliot Stuff Smith.

[David]

He.

[Davey Havok]

He was in Girls Against Boys. Okay. He wanted us to survive this.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So he knew that he had to convince Jimmy that we exist. Jimmy Ivy.

[David]

Yes.

[Davey Havok]

Which he was desperately trying to do. So he was up against that because if Jimmy didn't care about us, we weren't going to have a hit.

[Colin]

He's got 50 cent at this time.

[Davey Havok]

Very correct.

[David]

Wow.

[Colin]

That is in the club is exploded.

[Davey Havok]

That is exactly right. And he's. Jimmy's already announced that rock is dead. Tells 15 year old kids to sell their guitars. So we're up against that and Luke knows that. And we're very, very much up against exactly what you said do. Collaborating with 50 Cent was suggested to me.

[Bo]

No shit.

[Davey Havok]

That's where. That's desperate. That's where the vibe was.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And it wasn't suggested to me by Jimmy.

[David]

Right, Right.

[Davey Havok]

It was suggested me by Luke so that Jimmy would know that I exist.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

Nothing against 50 cents.

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Of course.

[David]

Legend.

[Davey Havok]

But I was. It's funny that you. I mean you really are in touch with that era. Because I was brought to the premiere of Get Rich, Die Trying.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

Sorry. I was brought to that to be around Jimmy.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

You know, so I exist so I would be thought of. So I understand. I was trying to. So we're working against. Not only are we working against the standard historic. Well, you got to follow up these big hits. But no one liked what songs we initially thought were these. Okay, here we go. I was like, nah. We're like, oh God.

[David]

And then that.

[Davey Havok]

And then like, I mean, sing.

[Colin]

The Sorrow survived like Smash Mouth taking over radio, you know.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Sorrow was like worked. It was miraculous.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. It truly was. Like you said. Because we're. That's what's going on at the time.

[Colin]

And now it's happening again in rock radio five years later.

[Davey Havok]

It's crazy.

[Bo]

But now it's like, what happened? Guitar music died essentially.

[Colin]

And track two of December Underground. You're. You're screaming right off the bat.

[Davey Havok]

Right. It's funny, like I. I really, when we were making that record, like maintaining that aggressive aggression was very important to me to represent our roots in the milieu that we were then in.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

I kind of regret it. Really? Yeah, I artistically regret it.

[Bo]

Regression a little bit.

[Davey Havok]

No, it's not that it was regression. It's just that I.

[Colin]

Yeah, but you're talking about.

[Davey Havok]

I feel guilty about it in a way. I feel it caused some problems.

[Colin]

But you.

[Davey Havok]

I feel it inspired this debuted at number one on the bill. Yeah, it was nice. It was not so. So Luke did it. Luke did his job. Like Jimmy Ye. Like, that was that. That was what it was. And that song was a grind.

[Bo]

Ms.

[Davey Havok]

Murder.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Who is she?

[Bo]

What's she like?

[Davey Havok]

Let me think. Oh, she's figurative.

[Bo]

Oh, figurative.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, she's figured.

[Bo]

She's got a nice figure.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, that's personification.

[Colin]

She's. You did enough, you know.

[Davey Havok]

Did you listen to the rest of the lyric?

[David]

I did.

[Davey Havok]

I just talk about that lyric. We've never done this.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

So the one song that is associated with AFI by civilians.

[Bo]

The biggest one.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

The number one hit, Ms. Murder Lyric. That was the number one hit that poses the gentle question, should I just kill myself? Probably.

[Colin]

Those are my favorite songs.

[Davey Havok]

Probably. And if I don't is just going to get worse. Oh, heavy misrepresent. Because that was it. That was the end. That was the end of the commercial success. Was that. Isn't that weird? It's beautiful. I didn't think so. I didn't think that. I didn't think this. That when the commercial success, like, went off like a light switch.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Two years, three years later. Well, actually, two years later, because the light switch went off before the record even came out. Right before Crashload even came out. But.

[David]

We.

[Davey Havok]

I wasn't expecting it. I didn't. I was confused. Like, when the Signs started happening, I was still like, I don't.

[Colin]

What are the signs?

[Davey Havok]

So we finished touring December Underground in Long Beach. Right. 12,500 tickets. We sell out in five minutes. Three minutes, maybe. Let's call it seven. Seven minutes.

[Colin]

I'll call it five.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Right. And then, guess what? This is very important timing. I may be wrong about the demos at the top of December Underground. No, I'm not okay. I'm not okay. So.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

So that happens. All right. Let's write a record.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

The writing process of Crashload was a joy.

[David]

Oh.

[Colin]

Oh, beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

I think we did have a little bit of a conversation there. We're like, let's strip down. Let's try to back off the layers. Let's rock. So that writing process was back to joy and, like, effortless.

[Colin]

And you can really hear.

[Davey Havok]

And effortless. And 12,500 people.

[Bo]

Yeah. Long Beach.

[Davey Havok]

Long Beach Arena. Sold out in minutes. Play the show. Take a couple of months off or something like that. And by a couple, I mean probably one or two, right? And then we start writing Crash Love here in Los Angeles. At that point, Jade has moved to. To the Valley. To. To.

[David]

To.

[Davey Havok]

Not the Deep Valley, sorry. Not yet, but now.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

But I don't know where Jade in the.

[Colin]

Welcome, Jade.

[Davey Havok]

The other side of the hill.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And so I'm down here writing that record with him at Stacy's house, just right. Really close by. Just right over here, my beloved life coach and lawyer. Hey, Auntie Stacy. Yeah, she's wonderful. Not truly Auntie, not by blood, but I lived with her during both surgeries, took care of me during surgeries. She made me into the man I am today. She actually was with us for years, and she. Usher, guided us through the nightmare of the indie label to the major label. And she was the only one who really cared about us genuinely. But we were writing there during the writing process of 2007, and as we were getting into 2008, pretty quickly.

[David]

People.

[Davey Havok]

Would run into me and recognize me on the street. And within that year, it went from, oh, my God, can I have your autograph? Can I have a photo? Nice words. To.

[David]

Oh, wow.

[Davey Havok]

Hey, man, what are you up to these days? You're kidding. No, I'm not kidding. And that. That started happening over and over again, and I'm like, what is. What is going on?

[Colin]

Went number one a year ago.

[Davey Havok]

What do we. What is going on? What do you mean, what. What. What am I doing? I'm making a record.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Now, these are Son of Sam fans.

[Davey Havok]

They'Ve been waiting for. They're wondering.

[Colin]

Never played, man.

[Davey Havok]

You've got a good point. Son of Sam fans, either your average person does live in the world, that. I learned that mainstream people who listen to exclusively mainstream music are of the belief that none of those people write their songs. An artist is always on tour. So if there's not a song on the radio and if you're not on tour, then are you. What do you do now? Are you Jockey? You look like a mechanic. That's a mechanic's caftan. Right? So that started happening over and over again. That's weird. And then the process of making Crash Love, the writing was great. The recording did not go so well. This was also due in part to what was going on at the label with Interscope. And the shift in interest, the stark shift in interest from music to Beats.

[David]

Yeah, right.

[Davey Havok]

Not Beats. The headphones yeah.

[David]

Oh, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Not pre Apple, not Beats. The headphones.

[David]

They were.

[Davey Havok]

Right. So that was very important. If you look at an Interscope video from anywhere around 2009 before, definitely you're going to see Beats headphones in the video. Because it was a rule that we avoided and avoided and avoided until we made. I think it was happening in 2006. So I think it was in December Underground. We're like, no, no, no. And then my beloved man Luke, during the making of the Medicate video, a song that none of us felt should have been the single, and that was the single we didn't feel like it should be. The single was Beautiful Thieves.

[Colin]

Second.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Which we felt like it should have been a single. I thought Veronica should have been a single.

[Colin]

Veronica's great.

[Davey Havok]

But, you know, it on. On the major labels at that time, when radio is very important, there was always a radio rep at the major label. And you. It was a bad idea to disagree. Tell the person who is pushing the song to push a different song than they want to push.

[David]

Interesting.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, it's human. It's human psychology. Of course, you know, on the one point. You know, on the one hand, it's like, what the. Is my song. But I understand. It's like, well, that's.

[David]

That's.

[Davey Havok]

That's just human psychology. If you are. If you're passionate about something, you're going to be more passionate about it than if I say, no, do this other thing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So they were passionate about Medicaid. We didn't think that would be.

[Colin]

You held a contest during the making of this record. Yeah, for people to submit videos of them singing and then they would make the, like, grand choir in the background.

[Davey Havok]

That's a good idea.

[Colin]

I made a video I didn't submit.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, you did.

[Colin]

And then I heard Beautiful Thieves and I was like, I should have submitted because those big.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[David]

Oh.

[Davey Havok]

Then they came in and saying, yeah.

[Colin]

They'Re all over this record and it's so beautiful. It's like this, like, the Crashlove overall, sounds like the sun is shining after December.

[David]

Oh, cool.

[Davey Havok]

You know.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

That's a really good way to put it.

[David]

And. Dude.

[Colin]

And like, if people look at it and they. I think you have to be unfamiliar with it to think that it's like some crazy sonic departure. Because the. The big riff in Torch song that starts the room.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

Right.

[Colin]

Is so jade.

[David]

Right.

[Colin]

It's unbelievable. There's. I mean, there's aggression all over this thing, even if it's not in the conventional way. You're used to the. I love this record.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, man, me too. I was so happy with it. And we did not. Even with all those little signs, we did not expect it to be so universally ignored.

[David]

Wow.

[Colin]

Ignored is such a crazy.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, it was wild. To the extent I. I've mentioned this. I don't know if I've mentioned this before in public, but the record came out. We sold. We. That record, December Underground, sold more the first week than that record sold in its entirety.

[David]

Holy.

[Davey Havok]

So it came out with a flop, With a commercial flop. That was so bad because at the time, obviously, record sales were waning. People were not buying records that began before Sing of Sorrow came out. So we did not expect to do anywhere near the amount of units.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And units matter to us because of perception, of course. And perception allows people to come to the show. And, you know, to be clear, this isn't a monetary thing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

We did not expect to do as many units anywhere near as we did on December Underground. But we. I know I speak for myself, I think Adam was definitely in the same boat, probably all of us. But I can only speak for myself. I thought, okay, well, this record will probably creep. Creep its way to gold. And I. And that's, I guess. Gotta know emotionally. That's great. That's a win now. That's a relative win.

[David]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And like. Yeah, I really thought we were going to. I really thought we were on that trajectory. To be one of those bands that just draws 12, 000 people.

[Colin]

Yeah, like, that's a normal.

[Davey Havok]

That. We're nine inch.

[David]

We already did it.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, we play. We were. I thought we were going to go up to the Forum, which is an arena here, which is, you know, I don't know, 12. 12,000. Yeah, it's the same. I thought. I thought that we were going to keep progressing as we had been from December Underground. I didn't think we were going to be a stadium band. I didn't, you know, but I did think we were going to make it to that form level and play to that many people. And it did just. It did just the opposite.

[Colin]

Which even at the time, I really didn't understand.

[David]

Didn't.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, it was a lot of things, you know, when you. A lot of. A lot of things took part in that. Culturally, a lot of things took part in that. What was going on in music around us, what was going on at the label. But, yeah, a good indication of it was. So we're touring that record, which was pretty bleak. It was just, you know, I Was like, we were really. We really love the record. I was so happy with the record. I'd had a. It was joyous. Writing record was. Was joyous. Like, lyrically, it wasn't joyous. But making the process in comparison to the misery of the one before was rejuvenating. Like, oh, I enjoy this again. So to have it be completely ignored was particularly devastating, not just in light of our recent commercial success. So all of that conflated into a pretty painful experience. Adam, in hopes of somehow salvaging the record, wanted to suggested we do signings on our day off, on every day off on the tour. So we were at record stores doing signings on the Crashlove tour. And I think of one of the most perfect indications of the tone of that time was we're doing the signings. I never liked taking photos. We could get to that. But we're not taking photos. We're just signing. And this was a very difficult thing, especially at that time when Facebook, when it became very important to have photos with everyone, Facebook was happening. It's very mad about this, but you get something signed, no photos.

[David]

Cool.

[Davey Havok]

So these two young women come up, come in the line, hey, we don't have anything to sign. We just wanted to get a photo. Oh, we're sorry. We're not doing photos. Oh, okay. That's fine. And they're wearing Despair Faction shirts.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

And Adam says to them.

[David]

Well, we'll.

[Davey Havok]

We'll see you at the show tomorrow. Or no, I'm sorry. They say, oh, that's okay. We just wanted a photo. We don't have anything to sign. Okay. And they say, what are you guys doing here? And we said, what? What do you mean?

[Colin]

Like, you know about the signing and not the show?

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Why are you in Omaha? Or why are you in Pennsylvania? What are you doing here? And I. And I'm like, well, I don't know what she's asking either, right. Because I can't begin to imagine what she means. And she says, and again, they're wearing Despair Faction shirts.

[Colin]

So whoever's promoting these signings is crushing.

[Davey Havok]

Well, it's not even the signing is. The more important part is the show that we're playing the next day.

[Colin]

That's what I'm saying.

[Davey Havok]

Right.

[Colin]

They know about the sign.

[Davey Havok]

So. Oh, Adam says, we're on tour. And they're like, why? Said we have this record that just came out last month or two months ago. And they go, oh, okay, cool. And he said, yeah, we're playing. We're playing tomorrow. Are you Guys gonna come? And they say, oh, no. And, like, just. He says, why not? He's like. And they go, oh, we. We didn't get tickets. And he says, I could put you on the guest list, because certainly it's not sold out. And. And he said, I could put you on the guest list. And they go, oh, no, it's okay.

[Colin]

Oh, my God.

[Davey Havok]

Because what they wanted was a picture.

[David]

Oh.

[Colin]

Because that's all that matters.

[Davey Havok]

That's right. Jesus Christ. So that. That was a really, like, good sign of the. That was a good indication of really kind of that.

[David]

That.

[Colin]

I mean, that and that. But that became the future of music as well, so it's not your fault.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Well, I have long decried reality television. Long decried it. And in fact, Crash Love was. That's the majority of what that record was about. Or much of what that record about was social commentary against that. Aggrandizing of celebrity and malignant behavior.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Bad behavior. Aggrandizing. Bad behavior through social media and through what began with the sex tapes, the reality TV started with the real world. And now who's our president?

[David]

Yeah, right.

[Davey Havok]

Of course. A reality celebrity.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

So end transmission. We're ending Jersey Shore.

[Davey Havok]

You know, not that one. That one wasn't about that. That one was actually about something nicer.

[Colin]

Okay, good. Beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, nicer for me. Something more pleasant. It was certainly more romantic.

[David]

I got you.

[Colin]

So if Crash Love is. Hey, you know, this is also beautiful. Burials is.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Die.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And before we get into it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

How do we regroup?

[Colin]

Four year gap now, you know, like.

[Davey Havok]

I wanted to die.

[Bo]

Do the record cycle.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, yeah. It was bad. I did. I wanted to die. Not just because of. Of the artistic nadir. Not the artistic nadir. I'm sorry. Like, I was very happy. That was a problem. I felt. I felt and still believe that that was our artistic peak at that point, but we had been ignored. And then what was going on with me personally followed suit.

[Bo]

How do we regroup?

[Davey Havok]

How do we regroup?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And I was. I was despondent. Like, I. I couldn't imagine the process of embarking on making another piece of art.

[Colin]

Why would I do that again when.

[Davey Havok]

It'S going to be completely ignored?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Why am I going to do it if it's going to be completely ignored? It's too painful. It's too painful. And then again, had to feel like a breakup. It did. It really did. Well, yeah, it felt very similar to what was going on, me personally, which was a sudden, unforeseen Betrayal and a sudden unforeseen severance and departure and of. With no return and no explanation and without me having had anything to do with it.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

I didn't change anything I was doing. Just suddenly everything was over.

[Colin]

And is this the sinking night that you experience?

[Davey Havok]

Oh, man, yeah. All of it. It was all there. It's all in there.

[Bo]

But is this. It's this also a spark?

[Davey Havok]

Well, yes.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So I'm. I'm miserable. And. And I'm again at poor Stacy's. Just. I don't. I'm staying at Stacy's over here in West Hollywood, and she's having to deal with this like. Like, just despondent mess of a creature in her house. And Jade Puget is. Jade Puget is coming in and checking on me, and I'm not eating. And he makes me go eat one day and. And that's when. That's when things change. So I'm. I'm at M Cafe and we're there, and Jade's like, you have to eat something. So I'm like, getting the vegan California club that I was getting trying to eat it. And someone. Someone who to this day, I don't know. And I've spoken about this with the King, who we've heard about before and we're going to hear about in a moment. We don't know who this person was because he doesn't know who I remember it was. Someone at McAfee sees me. They do not engage with me. They know that I am friends with the King, who we're referring to as the King. Josh Richmond, again, we could do days and days of these talks if you wanted to pick one of these out, but I have to leave it there. Insane killers. Yeah, Killers are great. Brandon Flowers said to me, so they're. They're like, they. It was a minute before this record hit, before the first record hit.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I had been hip to this record by a DJ friend of mine, and I was really on board. So I was going to see the Killers when no one cared.

[David]

And.

[Davey Havok]

But they were on the radio festivals because they were getting pushed, but no one was there. And then they break. And then we're playing the. They're like, after us, and they're big and they're. And Brandon, Brandon says to me after one of our sets, he's like, hey, like, I really liked this. This one song. I'm like, how'd it go? He's like, this. I'm like. And I'm like, oh, it's called the Missing Frame. He said, yeah. It reminded me of omd. Do you know who that is? And I said, honey, sir, that is very flattering.

[Colin]

Thank you.

[David]

That's beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

Jade Puget and I are there eating. Someone sees me. I don't see them. They do not engage with me. They know I'm friends with the King. They text the King something that. I am at this restaurant in West Hollywood where I don't live at this point. I'm still living in Oakland, where I've lived for the majority of my life. But I'm down here having collapsed, unable to do anything. And I get a text from the King, the benevolent man who is the king. And he would. You would love to talk to this man?

[Bo]

I think so.

[Davey Havok]

King, if you're listening, you would love to talk to this man.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Again, he was in thrashing. Mayor of Hollywood. Deep, deep. Early punk and rock and roll ties. I believe he directed you Could Be Mine. The guys in Rosen video. T2 Wade. I digress. Again, the King texts me on my Sidekick, probably. Oh, yeah, Juicy Couture.

[Bo]

Oh, the good one.

[David]

Yes.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, I hustled that somehow again. And he says, you're here. What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. I met em with Jade. He said, I met Fred Siegel. Come to Fred Siegel. So Fred Siegel is this pretty great boutique that doesn't exist anymore. They had like, three Zenyogi, which is which not everything.

[Colin]

Still one on Melrose, like, a block away from.

[Davey Havok]

That.

[Colin]

That's gone.

[Davey Havok]

So there was that one, right? And there was a cafe that was like a spot. And the King is having his meeting there with the agency.

[David]

Group.

[Davey Havok]

I'm sorry, the Alliance. Sorry, the Alliance, Frankie and Hartwell, and with their promoters, their party promoters. And so I. I'm like, hi. What? He's like, come here. Come here now.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And he's like, what are you doing here? And I explain it to him. He's like, whoa, Come to the castle. Come to the castle. His house. The castle, where the king lives, which is above the chateau on Hollywood Boulevard. Hence, the King. Come to the Castle. Yeah, the treehouse. The treehouse. Come to the. Come to the castle. You're gonna see. You're gonna move into the. My cousin just moved out of the treehouse. I don't know what these words mean. I know him, but I don't know what these words mean. He's like, you never been to the Castle? I'm like, no, because I know him from parties.

[David]

Yeah, okay.

[Davey Havok]

But other things. That's a whole other conversation. And he brings Jade. We hop in his Porsche. We perilously get driven through the hills. Utter reckless abandon and just stop signs or not taken into consideration. Up the Hollywood Hills. I am ready for death. So I'm like, oh, this is actually kind of a cool way to die, you know, above the chateau, falling off a cliff, Lost in translation, staring out the window. Totally. Yeah, totally. What's the other Sofia Coppola? The. Is it nowhere. Anyway. Which is the marma. Anyway, he shows us the castle. He says, move into this room. It takes us. Takes us up on the turret. There's a turret.

[David]

He.

[Davey Havok]

Waves over Hollywood. He says, look at it. It's Hollywood. Think of all the records that have been made here. Look at this view. Look at this place. You have this place to write this record. You're going to go down there. You're going to be inspired. You're going to have all this. You live here. I don't need nothing from you. You're going to write a record. All I want you to do. All I need from you is to write a record. I don't need nothing. I'm rich.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

I'm good. I'm rich. You said. You said that. I'm sorry, but it was poignant because I did need to feel safe because I was friends with the King, but not close enough to. I had a home.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I had a house.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I was just kind of a mess. And the house was in Oakland, and then.

[Colin]

And then barrels is what falls out.

[Davey Havok]

So.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I'm at the point where you say. Where you mentioned, where you. You inferred that this was the case. I didn't want to write a record at all. Yeah. So I'm hearing this and I'm like, okay, but whatever. No one's going to care. Why would I do this? No one's listening. Why are you here? I'm wearing a Despair faction shirt. Why are you here?

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

What are you up to these days? Like, why should I bother? Why should I. Why should I put myself into this if no one cares?

[David]

Sure.

[Davey Havok]

I'm sorry.

[Bo]

I. I fully empathize and I'm putting myself in your shoes, and it's so heavy. But there's something about being in this mode and being at a cafe and.

[Davey Havok]

Being like, it's not getting a text.

[Bo]

To going, yeah, right.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, it's all bananas. It's like. Like, we could really make this into satire. And woe is me. It's just the way I felt. Obviously, it wasn't the worst situation in the world, and I am I am. I spoke pretty freely about this. I am a bit embarrassed about how I acted and how I behaved to the situation. And I wish I could have written something different, but I can only be honest in my writing. So I had to be forthwith about how I was feeling, which was arguably overwrought, but it was real. And we went back to Stacy's house and Jay's like, well, what do you think of that? And I'm like, do we bother writing a record? Like, why would we bother doing that? And he said, I'll do it. I went, jay, okay. I talked to Stacy. I'm like, this is what I was told about the house of this. And she's like, do it. I wish someone would let me live in my house. They're free. I. E. Please get the out of my house. Please go anywhere but here. I'm sorry, Stacey.

[David]

I love you.

[Davey Havok]

You're not watching this. Stacy, please give a chance if you were watching two minutes of this. She doesn't need to hear me talk. She's heard me talk enough. So. Yeah. So then so began Burials and like.

[Colin]

And it seems like such a deep, like, personal.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. It's very explicit driven record. Oh, yeah, yeah. Hate driven.

[Colin]

Did they suffer?

[David]

Yeah. Awesome.

[Davey Havok]

It really. It really is a testament to Black Magic.

[David]

Wow. Yeah.

[Colin]

Sprinkle it into the universe. They just may suffer.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Or a testament to character.

[David]

People who.

[Davey Havok]

People who behave badly tend to put themselves into situations where repercussions can't be avoided. And even if that wasn't the situation with me, just those repercussions were not avoided.

[David]

Well, good. Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Not at my hand.

[Colin]

I know.

[David]

I'm glad to hear it. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Not at my hand.

[Colin]

So after what.

[Davey Havok]

Unless you want to credit Black Magic.

[Colin]

Well, no, we are. We are on for the record.

[Davey Havok]

We are dark sided.

[Colin]

So just to get what it took to make this record.

[David]

Record.

[Colin]

How do you feel about it? By the end of it, are you like.

[David]

Thank you.

[Davey Havok]

So in love with it.

[Bo]

Amazing.

[Davey Havok]

So in love. I mean, it was the epitome of catharsis for me.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, I was so happy we made that record and I loved it. And we wrote Extremists at the same time. We wrote and recorded Extremists at the same time.

[Colin]

You're getting it all out.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. And. And we. We switched management. We got management, who we still have today, who you've engaged with, who still treat us like we're the most important money making band in the world. They were very good, let me tell you.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

They got A lot of acts, and we're not anywhere near the biggest one. In fact, we're the smallest.

[David]

Oh, all right.

[Davey Havok]

By far. That means management is a. Managing a band is a commercial endeavor. One hundred and every other one of their bands are far more commercially successful than us. And they treat us no different than they would treat. If not. I mean, possibly better. So we switched management. They actually got us a record deal, which I didn't think was going to happen.

[Colin]

Which is crazy, right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You know, I didn't think we would be able to get any record deal. And they got us a major label record deal and it was on Universal and it didn't have any commercial success. Burials. But I really don't blame Universal at all. They tried really hard. It was. Again, we're against.

[David]

We're.

[Davey Havok]

We're up against the times and who we were and guitars and all of that. And, you know, the. The mainstream didn't want to hear it.

[Colin]

Guitars are out.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

No one wanted to hear guitars and. Except our core fan base, who stuck with us. And I mean. And these songs, man, oh, man, people. It was so gratifying like that, that aspect of it. I was so grateful that we had a shot.

[David]

Yeah. And.

[Colin]

But did this make you realize that those people were there for Crashlove, too?

[Davey Havok]

So it's hard to. It's hard. So you gotta understand that we're playing empty rooms.

[Colin]

That sucks.

[Davey Havok]

And also, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Because we're going back, we went and we downsized. We like. We're playing smaller rooms, which was purposeful. It was booked to play smaller rooms just out of diligence, just in the first place. Before we knew what was going to happen with the record. But even those rooms were smatterings of people. But here's the thing. The shows were very tepid.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So it wasn't. It wasn't just that there were playing, you know, 2000 room to 1200 people. It was that those 1200 people, it went from decades of everybody in the room singing every song, every word to every song to none of that. That stopped.

[Colin]

And do you blame, like, Miss Murder for that?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Anybody or anything. I could credit a couple of things. But what I don't under. That is something I don't. That is what I don't understand. To your point. Yes.

[David]

That.

[Davey Havok]

That is something I didn't bring up. It was especially odd because the vibes of the show were also just not it. That was part of the misery was. Oh, my God. Because that's to Me that not only.

[Colin]

Is this lustful, you're not having fun.

[Davey Havok]

This is a. This is the whole.

[David]

That's.

[Davey Havok]

That's. That's the juice you've tapped in. That's what I. That's why I do this as the live show. It's not the record of these songs. Like, if everyone could sing every word to every song at a show without there being a record of it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Like, if it. If it was a fleeting thing and they imbued it and they knew it forever, that's fine with me. I don't need a history of me existing in a way that's great because it allows for other generations to participate in the art and get something from the art. But number one for me is the live show. It always has been in the interaction. So that went. That.

[Colin]

You're a punk, you know?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

It's all about the life. I am a punk. And it came back. It came back with Burials and Burials.

[David]

Wow. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So to be clear, although this is, like, this crying about, like, how bad I felt and everything, I'm glad we talked about that, because that is the part that was most devastating to me, is that the shows changed.

[Colin]

It just makes no sense.

[Davey Havok]

It made no sense of everything. That part made no sense.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Like why it didn't work at radio. There's no more magazines. Why people didn't want to look at me or us or the video are all gone. Okay. You know dance music, edm. Sure. Which I love. I love all that stuff. I love all that little.

[Colin]

You got black audio going on.

[Davey Havok]

I love it. You're already doing black audio.

[David]

Yeah. Right, right, right.

[Davey Havok]

You know, different type of dance music, but dance music. But it was the.

[David]

It.

[Davey Havok]

It was suddenly the playing to our crowd being confused now, Boy, I'm used to playing to crowds that don't care or aren't confused. I've spent the last, like, four or five years doing almost exclusively that, and that is no fun.

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

But when it's your crowd doing that for the first time since 1991.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Why am I so like, holy shit.

[Davey Havok]

What the fuck's going on? That was fun. Sucked it with Burials. It went back.

[David]

Beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

It went back.

[David]

And.

[Davey Havok]

And what a relief that it went back with Burials.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Because when we were. I remember being in the treehouse and writing. I hope you suffer with Jade and me knowing.

[Colin]

Okay, this rocks.

[David]

If.

[Davey Havok]

If this. If this doesn't work.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Not commercially. If the. If our fans don't sing this, then we got nothing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

If they don't say if they're not. If they're not connecting with this, then. Okay, we'll deal with that later. But this doesn't end.

[Bo]

And I remember first show one, like.

[Colin]

The first second that, and then 17 crimes. Second single, but.

[Davey Havok]

So back to Luke again.

[Colin]

I had a deck of cards in my hands.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you. That's. That's by far one of my favorite afis. It's unbelievable. Thank you. And. And Luke, the A R guy who went on to do beats, he was one of the three who did beats. And he's doing great, and I love him. He hits me up sometime during burials and he says, davey, what the fuck? Why didn't you give me 17 crimes? Where were you guys with this on Crash Love? I'm like, fucking. I don't know, man. But whatever. It didn't work. Universal couldn't do it, you know? But yeah, and that's really cool because the crowd reacts to that too. Like immediate. Immediate crowd reaction, which again, is what it.

[Colin]

That's all that matters.

[Davey Havok]

That's the most important part.

[Colin]

Pardon this interruption. This is so important, this interruption. We've got to talk to you about AG1.

[Davey Havok]

We really do.

[Bo]

We love AG1. We use it all the time. But they have exciting news.

[Colin]

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[Bo]

For free. You can make your fun little nighttime drink. I despise melatonin. I am so excited that this is melatonin free. Won't give me the jimmy legs. Won't give me crazy nightmares.

[David]

Nothing.

[Davey Havok]

It's perfect.

[Colin]

Better rest is now possible thanks to the guys who have made better mornings possible for us for so long. And listen, chocolate milk is the ultimate bodybuilders cheat code.

[Bo]

It's true.

[Colin]

Downing chocolate milk all day is what these guys are doing after pumping iron. And so now you get to do it with a thing that's gonna put you right to sleep. Doesn't that sound nice? Give it a shot right now. Drinkag1.com. Hardlore is this.

[Bo]

Then you put this out, you tour on it. Inspiring for the next.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You're like, okay, yeah. There was no.

[Colin]

There's no hesitancy before the Blood album.

[Davey Havok]

No, no. Although I had a tough time writing it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Only for a brief. Only for a brief period of time. I recall why the process had changed a little bit. I remember us being in a management meeting and our manager referring to new AFI songs. And I had no idea what he was talking about. Well, Jade had played him music. Music beds. And he was like, dying over these music beds. And I'm like. So I think knowing that my management loved these music beds without a vocal on it, I think my mind psyched me out because I'm like, well, there's no vocal on it, so what am I gonna do?

[David]

Right? Yeah, right.

[Davey Havok]

What am I gonna do?

[Colin]

Do you remember what songs those were.

[Davey Havok]

Like, what skeletons of songs, to be honest. Only when we went away from those songs did it start working artistically working for me. Did we start flowing. And once it started flowing, it went really well, I think. Well, I think one of them. I think one of them actually made the record.

[David]

Oh, good.

[Davey Havok]

And I was never really into it. I won't mention it because maybe you like it, but that's a very. That's a rarity, for sure.

[David]

But you get to.

[Colin]

You're at 10 album. 10.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

You just look at that number and think, like, it's weird. What do you even do here?

[Davey Havok]

Well, not yet. No. Because we are at once. I. Once I got over the barrels.

[Colin]

Just gets the machine.

[Davey Havok]

Listen to this. So the. So we had an ANR guy on that record for whatever label we were on, and it was an ANR guy we had met when we were being courted for. For sing. For the big record for Sing of Sorrow. We kind of met him back then. Obviously, he didn't know much about the band because he was hearing about my struggles writing, which I'd never had before. He suggested that maybe Davey should do some mushrooms. Loser.

[Colin]

Boo.

[Davey Havok]

Wow. Shame.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So I never spoke to him.

[Bo]

Yeah, Harmsway was on tour and we had a show in D.C. the same night you guys played the 9:30 club on the Blood.

[Davey Havok]

On Blood.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Came and saw you. We were right front.

[Davey Havok]

No way.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Wait, are you serious?

[David]

Yeah. Swear to God.

[Davey Havok]

See, that's why we've been here the whole time. Yeah, but that's why we were like. Right, okay. So when I'm thinking I've met you, it's Because I've been face to face with you real close.

[David]

Right.

[Bo]

2007.

[Colin]

Do you. Are you looking like that? Are you surveying the crowd and.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, yeah, sometimes. Specifically at the 9:30 Club. Well, listen, like. Yeah, I see people. I.

[David]

It.

[Davey Havok]

It goes both ways.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Like, if you're up front and you're singing along. If people think I see them, I see them.

[Colin]

That's beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

For the most part, you're. I think. You think I'm singing with you. I'm singing with you. I mean, you know, like, sometimes we're this far away.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And you get to know your people. You know, like, this guy's at five shows in a row. That's my guy, dude. Yeah, I know this is gonna be.

[Davey Havok]

Good because that guy's really, really, really wonderful fans who will come to every show and travel and camp to this day. And they're. I've heard like, Chrissy Hine talk about not liking that. And I've heard people that. Making them uncomfortable and their perspective is, well, you saw this set last night and you're comparing with us. You didn't see the same set the last night. But for me, even if you had these people who I feel comfortable with and who are there every night and singing along no matter what the show, even if it were opening for some band that none of our fans would have any interest in seeing, they're there.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And they're. They're a comfort to me. They're an anchor for me. And. But yeah, I. I see people. Conversely, conversely, I will have friends say, like. Like, I'll come off stage and they'll say, like, what the. I'll be like, what? Like you put that guy's fingers in your mouth. I'm like, I did.

[David]

Oh, no.

[Davey Havok]

Like, what? I'm like, I guess you're having a good night.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

What do you want me to do?

[Davey Havok]

Partying?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You know, wow. Or the sick of it. You know that here's the story. So is that that happened. We come out. We're in playing festival in Italy and I come off stage and whenever. Whatever year this is, I think it's the late 90s, but we've toured with. We're close to sick of it all already at this point. And we come off and I've. I've walked out on. On the crowd to God called and sick today. Now, this is Italy, so it's kind of sparse and weird. You're.

[Colin]

It's 2:00am Europe, right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Right. Actually, I think it's daylight and. Yes, daylight. And we've never had a very strong fan base on that side. Briefly in England, but definitely not the continent.

[David]

Really.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. And when we had. When we had mainstream success for the two big records in the United States, then it hit the continent only then, not before, and went away. England was with us before, but then not after. Really. How about after Crashlove? I don't think so. And we haven't really been there since we went out on Crash Love. They were not feeling it like everyone else. And then I think we went back once with the. With the Deftones, who are fantastic. But I wouldn't expect their. Their fans to necessarily want to hear 17 crimes, which they didn't. And I get off stage at this. I walked out on the crowd for God calling Sick Day. I come back and Sick of all is like, what the. David. That was badass, kid. That was yo, kid. That was badass. Jesus killer. Jesus killer. I'm thinking to myself, what are you talking about? You've seen me do that once a night.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

On the Life on the Ropes tour. You've seen me do that.

[David]

Why?

[Davey Havok]

I go, what? I know they can't be. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[David]

They're like.

[Davey Havok]

You clocked that kid.

[David]

Oh.

[Davey Havok]

And I go, oh, yeah. So I'm not a violent person.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

But I was. I was standing on the crowd and there's this impish kid in the crowd who's looking up at me, and I'm precariously placed on someone's shoulders like they're. Again, this is not a sea of people balancing. Right? And my guy down here is looking up at me and he's just grabbing my dick and holding onto it like he's got a dead eye on my dick. And he. And he can get it head. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm singing and it's got called in sick today, so, you know, we're not at. Yeah, we're not looking great. But he's got it, right? So he's got it. And he's like. And he's got it. So this is uncomfortable for singing, you know, like, sexual assault aside.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

You know, I know he's with me, right? And so I. Yeah, so I. I know something. Trying to sing. I'm like, so that's first. Stop it. I laugh and he just. Boom, does it again. And I'm like, stop it. Just third time. So I don't even know. And I. And I just. But I got moved my mic hand.

[Colin]

Oh, God.

[Davey Havok]

So I just like, no. Like, I light him up and so So I don't realize that they're hearing. Like, I don't even know I'm doing it. And he's laughing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Like, I'm. I'm not even a guy, you know, Like. Like, I'm just. Stop grabbing my dick because I'm trying to sing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And I forgot about it. So that's another example of sometimes, I don't know, you're in the zone. But I do see people.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

I can't picture him.

[Colin]

So after 10 albums, Jade's producing this?

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

How much trust do you. I mean, you have to have, like, you. This guy is. He's there with you this whole time?

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

He's. His riffs are undeniable. His songwriting skills are insane.

[Davey Havok]

Just unparalleled talent.

[David]

How.

[Colin]

What is this default trust?

[David]

How.

[Colin]

How. How great is this level of trust? You have him in him at this point. Ten albums in.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, yeah. Just pure.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Just produce.

[Davey Havok]

It's not even, like, use the word trust. But it's not.

[Bo]

It's not.

[Davey Havok]

It doesn't even come into consideration. But it's not.

[David]

We.

[Davey Havok]

We are so familiar with each other and we are so familiar with working together that it's. It's not even a thought.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

It's not even a thought.

[Bo]

Yeah. The DNA of the band is.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Has been you four for so long.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And during the biggest.

[David]

All of it.

[Bo]

Everything.

[Davey Havok]

Right. Like, yeah. I mean, most. Once.

[Bo]

Once stuff is really moving.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

That I can't imagine. I'm sure you couldn't imagine it any other way.

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Couldn't imagine otherwise.

[David]

Yeah. Right.

[Colin]

I love to hear that.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

It wouldn't.

[David]

It would.

[Davey Havok]

It's. It's unimaginable for any of us.

[Colin]

Can you tell me about meeting Peter Murphy?

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

How'd that go?

[Davey Havok]

I was with the King.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Did you know this? Did you know I was with the King?

[Colin]

I did not know you were with the King.

[Davey Havok]

Okay. So now we gave the King the name. The King.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Davey Havok]

He lives in a castle.

[David]

Okay.

[Bo]

So was that why he was dubbed the King?

[David]

Sure. Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Independently.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Of this and for many, many years. The King carries a cane.

[David]

Okay.

[Bo]

Kingly.

[Davey Havok]

It looks like a scepter. Some of them. In fact, what he carries, I would call a scepter.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Actually, it does not have a hook.

[David]

Okay.

[Bo]

Just a ball.

[Davey Havok]

Right. And in fact, the ball on. I think the one that people most associated him with is an acrylic eight ball. But he has this, like, beautiful one for special occasions that. That Keanu Reeves gave him. I think As a celebration of the first Matrix success. And it's got like this bejeweled snake around an onyx ball on top. It's gorgeous.

[David]

Beautiful.

[Bo]

A kingly gift.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So the King, as I offhandedly kind of referenced long standing friend of punk, post punk and rock and roll and Hollywood, goes back with Peter Murphy for years, has a tale of being in a motel on the Sunset Strip when Bauhaus played the Roxy. Watching Daniel, I think. Or was it Pete? It would make more sense that it was Daniel, but at the time it could have been both hanging upside down on the bed and putting his hair up. Ah, okay. So this is the person we're talking about in relatively recent times. Yeah, I don't think I met Kevin at a cramp show.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Someone introduced me to Kevin and his then daughter who was like a baby girl. And now I can't. The date is either in automatic or was in tones on tale and pop tone. Both great. I met him, but I had never met any of the other members. And the King and I, the King and I, speaking of musicals, go to see Peter Murphy play here. I think it was in la. Yeah. Because he and I went to see him in Orange county as well. But this was at an LA show. Oh, it was at the. It was at Nokia. And so he's friends with Pete and he wants to go say hi to Pete backstage. And I'm not trying to do that, I'm trying to not do that.

[David]

Sure, sure.

[Davey Havok]

Because I love him, you know, and I don't want to punish him. I don't want to just be around. King knows him. I don't. You know, Pete's hiding. Truly people are trying to find him and he's hiding in different rooms backstage to avoid the LA scene.

[David]

Hi.

[Davey Havok]

From the King, Glenn. I saw Glenn go to go see. He gave me a nod. I believe he saw Pete. But the King and I are just hanging out backstage. We end up talking. I run into someone I know and we're talking and suddenly like around a quarter, there appears the Godfather. There's Peter Murphy. So the King introduces me. He's always very complimentary when he introduces me to anyone. He says, he gives my dossier. He introduces me to anyone, like whether or not they're in music or not. He's just very flattering, introduces me, gives my dossier to Peter Murphy and I say, yes, that's me. It is an honor to meet you. You are certainly by far one of my biggest inspirations. And he says, Neil, oh, you didn't Know where this was going?

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

Someone just gave you the question. He says. He says, neil. And he goes, josh, can I have that? The cane asked for the cane. I hereby knight thee. So united me.

[David]

Wow.

[Bo]

Just. Just Sir David.

[Davey Havok]

I wish I could remember. It had something to do.

[Colin]

That's incredible.

[Davey Havok]

It had something to do with the culture.

[Colin]

Sure, you're untouchable.

[Davey Havok]

But yeah, he. He united me. And that happened.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

And here you are. So Peter Murphy united me.

[Colin]

Beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

I guess. Sir. Sir Davey Havoc. And he qualified it. And I was like, yeah, okay, this is pretty great. Yeah, this counts. This reminds me. And I will.

[David]

I will.

[Davey Havok]

Since we're talking about wild wildlife experiences of the sort of this ilk, believe it or not, I am acquainted with the Wolf child as well, who is another one of my biggest inspirations, much like Peter. So I was very, very young. If you see me on Sing the Sorrow, you can see that. And we became friends. But one day, I had seen a cult show and Jade and I saw Billy and Ian backstage, and I'm like, I'm gonna go fan on them. Fuck it. I can't take it. Which isn't, as you see, with Peter Murphy, is not something I was always too. But this was like before Sing of Sorrow. I don't know when it was, but it for seeing Sorrow. And I went to go and fan on Ian and Billy. And Ian says, we. Billy and I noticed you in the crowd. We were talking about you. What?

[Colin]

Just your vibe.

[Bo]

We saw your vibe from across the street.

[Davey Havok]

You're not wrong. I go, he. I go, what do you mean? He said, I like a shirt you into the Batcave stuff. And I'm wearing an alien sex feature. And I go, oh, my God, this is gonna happen. And I go, huh? They just started talking about the Batcave and Theater of Hate and specimen and sex fiend and I'm like an anti sex gang. And oh, my God, 2003, I'm at a Queens of Stone Age show at the Palladium. I get a tap on my shoulder. I turn around, Davey Havoc. Years later, it's a wolf child. He knows my name. I'm dying. We start chatting. I introduce him to my friend, my death rock friend that I'm with. She melts. See, an aspiring. She melts.

[David]

It's cool.

[Davey Havok]

Collected her in a jar and we exchanged phone numbers. And he called me in the Oak woods where I was staying, which is these furnished. These dark, shady, furnished apartments that I'm staying in at the time. And we're making Sing the Sorrow.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

We're making Sing the Sorrow. It's not out yet. And he's talking to me. And in this conversation. Where have you ever heard the wolf child speak? He's very eloquent and he's very thoughtful, and he's very intelligent, and he's just a genuine artist in every way. And in a conversation that fits that character.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

We speak for about the length of this podcast, but in that he's giving me a pep talk pre.

[Colin]

He has no idea how bad you need this.

[Davey Havok]

No precinct. The sorrow, you're saying to get him ready.

[David]

Yeah. Okay. But.

[Davey Havok]

Right.

[Colin]

It's about to happen.

[Davey Havok]

He's like. He's telling me things are about to happen.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

That I don't understand. But never stop. The tribe needs you. He said the tribe needed me. The wolf child said, I'm in the tribe, and Peter Murphy knighted me. So I'm good.

[Colin]

You're fine.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You're pretty good. You know, as you said, the Robert Gunga. The Robert thing. Yeah. That really meant a lot to me. Admittedly, when I needed to remember that the tribe needed me, I did not. But Jay did. And the king did.

[David]

And the king.

[Davey Havok]

And I assure you, Hunter and Adam did, but they couldn't get near me because I was too busy buried in a hole in West Hollywood, unwell.

[Colin]

But then 17 crimes happened.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And everything's fine.

[Davey Havok]

That's right. That's right. Actually, a lot of what inspired 17 Crimes really did make everything okay. I was surrounded by a group of people at that time of. Of what was one of my greatest emotional lows, you know, kind of followed in addition to the December underground, the community of friends that I had, the majority of which were vegan, straight edge, who really embraced me where I was very unpleasant to la. Group of friends. Yeah. The wolves.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Yes. You know these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of the holly wolves. All the werewolves. You know, those people really, really, really took care of me. I'll cry if I keep talking about it, which maybe I shouldn't cry for one interview. Who would be if not for our friends, you know? And. And one of those people, Matt Stoski, made the video perfect. Made the perfect video. Really, really captured the tone of that song.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

A fantastic answer.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Bodies.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Eleventh album.

[Davey Havok]

Yes. Insane. Yes.

[Colin]

You broke 10.

[Davey Havok]

You did 11.

[Colin]

Jade's back at the helm.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

No trust needed none.

[Davey Havok]

No trust.

[Colin]

This is like a hook forward.

[Davey Havok]

Thanks.

[Colin]

Soaring choruses.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Colin]

Tell me about putting it together. I know Covid held it back a.

[Davey Havok]

Little bit, but ultimately, yeah, I. I I. I was. I was desperately campaigning to not put it out in the quarantine, but I was very alone. I do wish we hadn't. I think it would have reached more people if we hadn't.

[Colin]

100%.

[Bo]

It's such a toss up.

[Colin]

You also never know.

[Bo]

It's such a toss up. There are so many bands.

[Davey Havok]

You never know what happens.

[Colin]

Some bands exploded because it came out in the pandemic.

[Davey Havok]

Exactly. Which was part of the argument of doing it. But boy, that's why I fought so hard to not put it out. Being of the belief that it would reach more people if we could tour on it as we traditionally do. But I love that record. I loved it so much. We did the majority of the writing in the Zen room, I believe. Have you heard this language? Yeah. So our manager has this beautiful, beautiful office that is a house on. On Melrose. And there is a secret room behind a murakami. And you.

[Colin]

Because you wouldn't think to take that.

[Davey Havok]

You pull back the murk, right? Yeah, I'm gonna take that off the wall. Murakami. Believe me, you ain't getting into this place. You pull back the murakami. So now you know how to get into the Zen room. If you break in, you pull back the murder murakami. But you have to get through a locked door. And you go up the secret staircase and there's this beautiful Zen room. You're not gonna have the key. And we wrote Burials in the Zen Room and tracked, I think all the vocals in the Zen room. Oh, Billy Corgan came and worked on. Co wrote Dulceria with us in the Zen Room. I think he and Jade might have worked other places too on that. And many black audio record or not many. One of the black audio records, I think was written there probably. I don't know, one of the black.

[Bo]

Audio records, it just channels one or two.

[David]

Goodbye.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, it was a great room. And we wrote the record in there and it was. It flowed. Yeah, I loved it. And that was the record. That was the record after that record. Now we've reached. Now we've reached the. Me personally going, oh, fuck, now what? What do we do now? That's where I was after we wrote that. Because I love that record so much and sad that it didn't get the attention that I would have liked it to have gotten.

[Colin]

I was.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, yeah. People will get it in time. The Body's tour was phenomenal. So fun, so fun. Once we finally got out on the road after. After we ground through the virus and then Pushed and then the Virus and then Push. And I would have loved to tour that record more than we did. But as we were going on and doing other things after the Bodies tour and time was grinding on and, you know, the need for new music started to happen, I started. I would think about that record and how much I love it and where we had gone on that record, and I was confronted with a concern about where we were gonna go artistically.

[Colin]

You guys are not a band that just does it again, you know?

[Bo]

Yeah, there's.

[Davey Havok]

Right.

[Colin]

There's always some kind of evolutionary leap. What is less.

[Davey Havok]

Colin David. That's correct. Right, Bo?

[Bo]

Yes, sir.

[Davey Havok]

That has always been organic.

[Colin]

Yes.

[Davey Havok]

Right. Almost unspoken. We've, as we've discovered, there was a brief piece of language from Jade on Black Sails upon his entree into the group. And that one sentence directed a large distinction between black sales, one of the Large distinctions between black sales, one of the many, and shut your mouth. And then the next really explicit one that came to mind, which we referenced already, was a brief talk about stripping down Crash Love, which framed it in a way that made writing very fun. But I don't remember having those conversations for. For blood or bodies. Or bodies. Definitely not burials.

[David]

Definitely not burials.

[Davey Havok]

Not burials. Not burials. Poor Shade. Poor Shade is just hoping.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Does he ever just send you something like, hey, like, I know we're not doing something right now, but I just did this.

[David]

I'm ready.

[Colin]

Here's this. We're ready to go.

[Davey Havok]

No. Because he knows it'll traumatize me.

[David]

Oh, okay.

[Colin]

It's gotta be.

[David]

Okay.

[Colin]

It's time.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. For me. We can get into that. But, like, I'm very obsessive. Like, that would make me crazy. I have to be. It's time to write afi. It's time to write black audio. It's time to write. Oh, we're. Oh, look, let's make an extremist rush. It's time to do Dream Car. There are times. Yeah, sure. I have to be ready. That would. It would even stress me out, you just saying that.

[David]

So.

[Colin]

Silver Bleeds the Black. When. When did you decide you were ready?

[Davey Havok]

We reached a point of time in the past couple years. It must have been. Well, yeah, because it was shortly after the conversation that we began doing it. In fact, where we are right now, brain Dead, is a very stark demarcation. In the beginning of the Silver Bleeds the Black Sun Ellipses period, we began writing that record somewhere. I would say it was June 18th. Not good with numbers like that, but I'M pretty certain there was a Ramones show, a Ramon Zach show here where we played after showing Rock and Roll High School.

[David]

Yeah. Cool.

[Davey Havok]

I wish it could have been here. It was very fun.

[David]

Incredible.

[Davey Havok]

The Monday after that is when Alec was there. I started driving to your neck of the woods, and we began writing Silver Bleeds the Black Sun. Not long before that, we were in a meeting with management and we decided it was time to write a record. And I confessed my concerns.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

And they were the following. Look, I really love Bodies. We can't. We can't come with anything that is expected. We cannot write just a good AFI record.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

Oh, we can't have the. I. I. And I. And I. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I have some ideas and I just want to run them by you. And RJ has long been saying to me, you got to write your mood record. You got to write your mood record. And I said, I don't know that we can do that. We've. Often the records, though, they may have continuity.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

It's rare for them to have one mood. You guys.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I saw your AP interview.

[Davey Havok]

Okay. Right.

[Colin]

Where you mentioned that. And I'm wondering what the. What is the mood?

[Davey Havok]

I'm not sure.

[David]

Sure.

[Bo]

But it's one of those moods.

[Davey Havok]

But now I could talk about. We could talk about that in a minute. But back at the meeting.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

I. I meant to say let's create a moody record.

[David]

Let's.

[Davey Havok]

Let's. Can we. Can we agree? Would you guys be cool with writing a moody record? I. I said the word mood.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

I meant to say.

[Colin]

You put that out there.

[Davey Havok]

I meant to say moody, though.

[David]

Okay. Okay.

[Davey Havok]

So I misspoke.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

And they said, what do you mean? And I said, I'm thinking along the lines. And if you saw the AP interview for this, for. I'm like. I'm thinking heaven up here. Swamp Thing, Pornography. Ish. You know, maybe some love and rockets.

[David]

Ish.

[Davey Havok]

And everyone said, okay, yeah, right. Because we're all coming from the same.

[Colin]

Place and your team understands you.

[Davey Havok]

Great, we gotta do this, but we really gotta do it. Because I really felt at this point, this many records in for us, we really had to do something we hadn't done before. Because if we wrote good AFI songs, I just didn't think they would be good enough. I just didn't think they would be that compelling.

[David]

Interesting.

[Davey Havok]

Like if we wrote Bodies again.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

We couldn't. We'd never do that. We can't repeat the same record again. But I Was concerned because Bodies was so good and it was so different than anything we had done before. But as I express to the band, and I've expressed in the AP interview, I think we've done so much musically at this point since 1991, and there. And there's only so much musical inspiration that we all agree upon now.

[David]

Or.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, speaking personally, that I would really want to be involved in or that I would feel comfortable participating in. And it was a process for me, trying to pick things out that we haven't done. Exactly. And I thought that doing it in whole. Doing a record that is one mood and Journey would facilitate the stark discrepancy that I thought we needed both artistically and that our fans needed from us, which is something like people needing something from us is something I never think about.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

But I kind of did. Like, I didn't. I didn't. I. I felt it would be irresponsible at this point in our career to. Of course. I was just concerned. We started writing. It took a turn.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Slight turn. So soft. You guys have heard the record, right?

[David]

No.

[Colin]

What?

[David]

No song.

[Bo]

Just the song.

[David]

What the.

[Colin]

We're Civilians.

[Davey Havok]

You've got to be kidding me.

[Colin]

No, I never heard it. I'm looking forward to it. In October, it comes out on Run for Cover Wreck.

[Davey Havok]

Okay, well, you should have had the record. I'm. I don't know why you don't worry about it. Oh, my God. Well, good thing. We covered everything but the record in four hours. Good, because you haven't heard it, so. Of course. Well, you know what? It's good news. They haven't heard it.

[Colin]

They haven't heard it either.

[David]

So this is.

[Davey Havok]

Right, but. But I thought you guys had heard it. Okay, but you've heard this song.

[David]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So the song, I think, very well imparts the tone of. Of the record. Okay, now you're not. One is not going to stay exactly there. It does move around a bit, but it lives in that world.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

It lives firmly in that world. I do not think there is a moment. There might be one moment that is purposefully there.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

To give you pause. To give. To give the listener pause. It may or may not, but where it is on the record, I won't. Won't give anything away. But where it is on the record, at least for me, I actually, at the end of the. At the end, the sequencing took a turn at the end, where the guys were suggesting something that was a change that I was like, no, no, please, just Leave it off if it's not going to be.

[Colin]

You hear Right.

[Bo]

The sequencing.

[Davey Havok]

Because it. Well, it's. It's very. To me, it's very important in light of. In light of what's come. But making the framework express. Expressly creating this framework to work within the writing again resulted in this writing process that was so fun.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

It was so fun. When we were writing this, the songs were just pouring out. Behind the Clock was one of those songs that just happened naturally, really. Oh, just happened. Happened. And did I talk. You guys watched the whole AP interview?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Did I talk about. I didn't talk about this, actually. I don't think I was talking about it to Jeremy the other day. Yes, I talked about it to Jeremy. Another different difference in the writing process of this for me, which very, very much affected the songs, was I suspected, going into this record, based on the record that we had planned on writing, that for the first time in the history of afi, I might be able to successfully write lyrics. Prior.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

To hearing the music.

[David]

Oh, wow.

[Davey Havok]

This was the case with this record.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

This is the first record I've ever written where I was able to come to the session with complete songs.

[David]

Wow.

[Davey Havok]

This revealed itself to me on behind the Clock. I came. I had a near fleshed out group of lyrics.

[Colin]

Are you writing them as lyrics or are you.

[Davey Havok]

Lyrics.

[Colin]

Okay, so you're not.

[Davey Havok]

You're not just like, I'm gonna write some poetry?

[David]

Okay.

[Colin]

No, you're like, these are gonna be AFI songs.

[Davey Havok]

All right, I'm writing songs. Yeah, I'm writing songs. So I was able to create full thoughts in the structure of a song where some of it would be sometimes needed to be nudged. But this pro. This is something I had never been able to do before to this extent. In the past, I would take notes. I knew not to write songs. I learned that very, very early on because of the disappointment of. Wait. Very early on. We're talking 1991, right? Like, here's my song. And I'm like, oh, that's not how it works. Because this is the music and it doesn't work.

[Bo]

Are you writing melodies this way as well?

[David]

No.

[Bo]

Okay, so you're writing almost poetry.

[Davey Havok]

Correct, Correct. But in the structure of a song. In the structure, I would know, okay, this is. I'm writing poetry, but this is the verse, poet, poem. And I know how we traditionally write courses or what course is, or I imagine what a course would be. And working in. Working in repetition and working in lyrics and knowing that I was opening myself up to different Versions of writing and purposely trying to do things that I hadn't done before. And purposely not doing things that I had done before.

[Colin]

12 albums deep.

[David]

Yeah, right?

[Davey Havok]

12 albums deep.

[Colin]

This is the kind of stuff you have.

[Davey Havok]

You have to do, which I never even considered. But because we're 12 albums deep, I needed to do this emotionally and artistic, physically for me and my. I mean, again, back to your guy. Jade Puget, our man. Jade Puget King. I mean, man. You know, I sit down with him, we've had these conversations, and in day number two or one, he would be able to tell you better. He probably remembers. He picks up the bass and he plays that bass line for behind the Clock. And I sing that.

[David]

Oh, wow.

[Davey Havok]

And then he moves to the chorus and I sing that because he moved to that chorus. So I sing it that way.

[David]

Done. Yeah, yeah.

[Bo]

You got first single and we're like.

[David]

And.

[Davey Havok]

And we know better now because we're this. And because we work together. So we're recording all this.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And it's really wonderful working with Jade as a producer because he's. We've always known this. Right. The demo vocal is the best vocal.

[Bo]

We were just.

[Davey Havok]

Everyone who comes from punk rock and hardcore, you re record it and you go, it's just never as good. Right. And he's always known as. I've always known that. But when we started working with producers.

[David]

No, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Never. No, you can't use it. No, no, no, no, no, no. As soon as Jay started producing the AFI records, it was. We're recording your vocals. When you write, as you write stuff, we're recording it and I'm going to record it in a way that it can be used if we need to. So what you're hearing are those vocals.

[Bo]

So I hear a little bit of Andrew Eldridge.

[Davey Havok]

Absolutely.

[Bo]

Yeah, I heard that. I mentioned it. And I mean, I wouldn't say that's not something that you've not done before. But in this, the delivery on behind the Clock is so. It is a departure and it is. It is different.

[Davey Havok]

It is. And you're going to hear that through the rest. You're going to hear nuances and flourishes and. And register.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You haven't heard with AFI before yet, in my opinion, is still very much us. To me. I mean, if one doesn't. If one hears behind the Clock and thinks this sounds. This doesn't feel like AFI at all, then that's the way they're going to feel about the.

[Bo]

Yeah, I certainly don't feel.

[Davey Havok]

I wouldn't think so to Me. It really, really feels like us in, in such a relevant, relevant, pure way. Writing. It was fun. We wrote so many songs.

[Colin]

Do you feel the, the mood that you set out to achieve that you have?

[Davey Havok]

I think, I genuinely. I mean, this sounds like a salesman. I think we did something better than what we said.

[Colin]

Oh, good.

[Davey Havok]

But I do, but I do. I think, I mean, I'm so happy. What, what I had envisioned and failed to articulate properly was dreamier. There's a bit of dreaminess on this, but there is. There is a edge and attention and an abysmal nature to this that wasn't so much a part of the dreaminess that I, that I was envisioning that I, I think really very much benefits us as a group. I, I, it, it's. I, I could not. And now we're in that position. Well, sort of. I won't go. I just haven't felt we. I told you how I felt about bodies.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

It's even more pronounced with this. I, I, this is. This may be my favorite thing I've ever made.

[David]

Wow. Oh, wow.

[Davey Havok]

I probably like, I, I am.

[Colin]

Like you said, you've just been listening to it recreationally.

[David]

Yeah, right.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. It's odd. It's crazy. I am, I am. I'm so in love with this record. I'm like, moved by it, as if it's not me.

[Colin]

Again, you made something that you needed, maybe didn't know you needed, which is. That's when art connects with people.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. It interesting because I don't on the one hand, I, Yes, I, I, I very. I very much do it for myself, but it's a matter of catharsis. And then it's a matter of connection. And as we've spoken of before, that connection first and foremost comes with me in the practical, in the performance and the very literal human connection. And then secondly comes in my hope that I offer a connection for the isolated, for the alienated, for those who hear something in what I do that perhaps they lack elsewhere and that they feel a little bit less alone. I know that sounds trite and I've been saying things like that for decades, but it's just a true. Where I come from. But it's an odd experience for me to listen to it. And when I hear it in my house, when I'm rehearsing it and when I'm learning it and practicing it and I come in, I. I feel it really represents. It really represents the tone of, of the world we're in now. Which, which, yes, is an intention if you. It's intentional in certain ways because I can't help but feed that into my lyrical perspective.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

So when you hear things like Void Word. Have you seen the track listing?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Okay. So Void Word and a world unmade. Yeah. Blasphemy and excess is a reaction to this sick, uncanny, twisted, crooked version of reality that we live in that is like so grotesque that I often find myself wondering what is actually real.

[David]

Yes.

[Davey Havok]

Which is sick and which is really an interesting statement. I sound like the psychedelic drug users that I would hear as artists in interviews that I would dismiss. Because you are on mind altering drugs. We now live in a time that is mind altering. Mind altering.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

The. The supercomputer in our pockets are altering our minds.

[Davey Havok]

Absolutely.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

How do we get off in various ways. Yeah. That's really deconstructing our minds and our intellect and also, you know, the ability to proliferate lies, damaging information, Personas. I think we're going back again to the.

[David]

To.

[Davey Havok]

To the reality television and how we end up with a president like we have and how we end up in the sick.

[Colin]

The riot of fascism is, you know.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Fascism.

[David]

Literally.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. Sick world where, you know, racism and sexism and. And, you know, queer hate is just fine. It's disgusting. But here we are. Here we are. And it's.

[David]

It's.

[Davey Havok]

It's all a product of. Of what we've let slip.

[David]

Right.

[Davey Havok]

You know, what we've accepted, what the filter.

[David]

What we've revered. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

What we revered as a culture. You know, what we've. What we've aggrandized and what we've elevated. And I don't. I don't try to write political lyrics or socio. Political lyrics. I. I just express myself. But in this, in this, in this uncanny, abysmal world that we live in, it can't help but impart some of those themes.

[David]

Of course.

[Colin]

I mean, it's my thinking lately is like, when you talk about racism and sexism and somebody says, like, don't bring politics into it. Like, how is that You. You want to feed immigrants to alligators.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And you're going to call that politics? I want you should.

[Davey Havok]

It's human rights. Human rights shouldn't be politics.

[David]

It's.

[Davey Havok]

Right. And that's why I'm not about talking. Talking. I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about we are human beings.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

What the. How about don't kill anybody?

[David]

Yeah. What.

[Davey Havok]

How about religion? Don't kill anybody. Stop harming animals, you guys. What the.

[Colin]

Sorry, man.

[David]

Sorry.

[Davey Havok]

I Mean, really, though?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

No, you're right. Like, think about it.

[Colin]

You're right. We know you're right.

[Davey Havok]

They're innocent. I know. You know? Yeah, they're innocent. You wouldn't do it yourself.

[David]

No.

[Davey Havok]

And you wouldn't do it to your dogs or your cats, you know, so it's that kind of thing that, like, twists my mind. And we're living in a world that. Where that. That is, you know, the norm and it's. It's extending to human beings.

[David]

Very true.

[Davey Havok]

And. And so back to the record. Not that it's what it. With the record. What the record encapsulates is, you know, the. The sound of the summer.

[Bo]

The summer of 25.

[David]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

The summer of 20. But luckily. Luckily, it's coming out in the fall. It was supposed to come out in the summer at first, but as everything is. It just. Everything's dragging and dragging. So I was actually. When it got pushed, I was happy because I. It's a. It's a fall record. Oh, good. I like to hear that. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, if you consider behind the Clock to be of that season, which I. That's Window down, which I think really is. Yeah, it's the top down.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Sun out. I think that's. I was really relieved that it was coming out in fall because for me, it's really important when music comes out. Like, I'm a huge Rufus de Soul fan.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

Are you familiar with this Iris? They're one of the. They're massive. They just play the Rose bowl, right?

[David]

Oh, Jesus.

[Davey Havok]

They're massive. They're a deep house. I encourage you to check them out. Okay. They're. I don't understand the culture around it. It didn't used to be quite this way, but it's like day party, ketamine, coke, rich model.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

It's not a great scene that is sort of, you know, the party world, deep house world. Sure. But it's massive.

[David]

Right, Okay.

[Davey Havok]

I would contend Rufus of Soul is very likely my favorite modern artist by far. I actually will contend that Rufus of Soul is the closest thing we've gotten to Depeche Mode.

[David]

Oh, okay.

[Davey Havok]

To a new Depeche Mode.

[David]

Now. You got it. Yes.

[Davey Havok]

So big melancholy hooks over electronica now. Yes. It's house, but it's song structured.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

I love it. Yeah, that's important. And very, very simplistic, yet, of course, poignant lyrics, which allows it to be as pervasive to the world as it is. Listen to this fucking group. But I was saying, when things Come out or to me have an effect on me. Rufus to soul to me is hot summer night music. You know, day party in. In under the parasol. Which you'll never find me in the day by pool.

[Colin]

I've seen you under the parasol.

[Davey Havok]

Not by a fool in the dog. I mean, maybe you will, but that's. That's the vibe. What do we say?

[Bo]

It's like listening to Crowbar when it's hot.

[Colin]

Oh, far too hot for Crowbar.

[Davey Havok]

Too hot.

[David]

Hot.

[Colin]

That's cold.

[Davey Havok]

Right, Right. Exactly. It's cold. But they put out their new record in the fall. They put it out last winter or fall or something like. Like that.

[Colin]

And that's what it's all about.

[Davey Havok]

And I'm like. Yeah, I try to listen to it. I'm like, can't.

[Colin]

Too hot?

[Davey Havok]

No, too cold. Too cold for the.

[David]

The.

[Davey Havok]

For Rufus.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Davey Havok]

No, that's Rufus. I'm like. And so I've now been listening to the new record finally. Now that it's now as Rufus weather and afi.

[Colin]

And as we know, it is tied to Halloween.

[Davey Havok]

Exactly.

[Colin]

October music for us.

[David]

So.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. So in closing, all Hollows LP ellipses is being dropped in October. And I hope.

[David]

Beautiful.

[Davey Havok]

I hope you guys enjoy it as you know how I feel.

[Colin]

I hope you sent it to me tonight.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, you should have had it already. Well, listen, since you don't have it, then maybe after you get it, I come back and we see Speak for another four hours.

[Colin]

No more. We would love that.

[Davey Havok]

Part three.

[Colin]

And can we. Can we part with your four favorite hardcore records of all time?

[David]

Okay.

[Colin]

Is that crazy?

[David]

You, you, you.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, I forgot about this. Yeah, it's crazy. I can name four of my favorite hardcore. And then they don't have to be lps, right?

[Bo]

No, I love when they're. You love love when they're ep.

[Davey Havok]

Well, no, I'm just cheating like we were talked about before, so. Well, we won't start with the Cheat. GI Germs. GI okay. Minor Threat Singles Collection. Total Recall.

[David]

Boom.

[Davey Havok]

Negative Approach.

[David]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

Negative Approach. Total Recall.

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

And then I mean, can. I mean, this is really cheating. But can I? Can I. Everything Went Black. Is that fair? That's fair. Okay.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

But great answers.

[Davey Havok]

But, you know, there's 400.

[David]

This is.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah, well, we are not 400.

[Bo]

You don't think so?

[Colin]

For hardcore?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

No, I could probably do like. I mean, the Dead Kennedy's record that I said comes to mind. The Bad Religion record that we met. Can I say.

[Bo]

God, do I Love that record.

[Davey Havok]

Yeah. I mean, yes. There's like. And then I'm gonna stop now because then we're starting to get into the mid-80s. And then we can do that in part two.

[Colin]

After silver bleeds, the Black sun comes out this October on Run for Cover Records. Great label. I don't.

[Davey Havok]

I mean, great label. How did. Great label.

[Colin]

We're out of time.

[Davey Havok]

They're killing it.

[Colin]

But they, like. I guarantee you there's no label owner who is probably as passionate about AFI as we are.

[David]

Wow.

[Colin]

As a label.

[Davey Havok]

Well, listen, you can see it in the back.

[Bo]

That makes sense.

[Davey Havok]

And here they're. They're really, really working hard.

[David]

Awesome. And they have.

[Davey Havok]

They get it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Big time.

[Davey Havok]

There's a piece of vinyl. I don't know if it's.

[David]

It's.

[Davey Havok]

But there's a piece of vinyl that they designed for some exclusive. And they presented it to us. So cool.

[David]

Oh.

[Davey Havok]

And it was their idea.

[Colin]

Isn't that nice?

[David]

Yeah.

[Davey Havok]

You'll know when you see it. It was their idea.

[Bo]

Like you said, they get the physical media thing.

[Davey Havok]

They created another little promotional item that they said, hey, hey, what do you guys think of this? And it was. It really nailed it. You'll see it if it's not already out, but, like, it really included a lyric on it that really represented the understanding of the song.

[David]

Okay. How about that?

[Davey Havok]

Which was very touching to me.

[David]

Perfect.

[Colin]

Well, thank you so much for joining you guys.

[Davey Havok]

It was such a pleasure. I don't know what you're gonna do with this. Four hours, five hours.

[Colin]

I've seen it all.

[Davey Havok]

I have to.

[Colin]

This might be two parts, might be three parts, might be one.

[Davey Havok]

Get out of here before we.

[Colin]

Either way, this is. This is an all timer for us.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Colin]

One of the best things.

[Davey Havok]

It was really a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Colin]

Thank you for any.

[David]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Any parting words you'd like to leave anybody with. We always give the option. You don't.

[Davey Havok]

I think I already said them. You can write it into the end.

[David]

Okay.

[Davey Havok]

There were some good. I gave. You Got some buttons.

[David]

Yeah.

[Colin]

No, you did good.

[David]

You could.

[Colin]

You're good at talking.

[Davey Havok]

You know, I got buttons like Yoji Yamamoto.

[Colin]

Well, that was hard.

[David]

Lord.

[Colin]

With Davy Havoc. Unbelievable. Hope you all enjoyed it as much as we did. Probably. Probably not. Because we're us and we loved it.

[Davey Havok]

So.

[Colin]

Thank you.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you. Yeah, I do have clothes. Thank you. Thank you for watching.

[David]

If you. Whoa.

[Davey Havok]

If you made it this far, man.

[David]

They did. Wow.

[Davey Havok]

Thank you.

[Colin]

Bye. This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.