Mehdi Hassan (3:01)

I'm here.

Hussan (3:01)

Let me just start off by congratulating you, Mehdi.

Mehdi Hassan (3:04)

What for?

Hussan (3:05)

Well, as we established in our last interview, you love making very watchable.

Mehdi Hassan (3:09)

Oh, God.

Hussan (3:10)

Very viral.

Mehdi Hassan (3:11)

I apologize for that last time videos.

Hussan (3:13)

It was a bad quote and you had a doozy in 2025. Okay, let's put up this epic thumbnail of one of the most watchable viral videos that starred Maidi Hussin.

Mehdi Hassan (3:23)

Jubilee.

Hussan (3:23)

Let's look at it. Mehdi Hassan versus 20 far right. Bam.

Mehdi Hassan (3:27)

Do you like that?

Hussan (3:28)

Did you finger wag for that?

Mehdi Hassan (3:29)

I mean, I do what they tell me to do. Jubilee knows what they're doing to go viral.

Hussan (3:34)

What was the experience like in the room?

Mehdi Hassan (3:37)

It's the most insane thing I've ever done in my life. Without a shadow of a doubt. I've never had an experience like in my entire journalistic career. I'm 46 years old. Yeah. 26 years as a journalist. Never experienced anything like it. Two and a half hours of my life that I. It feels like a dream.

Hussan (3:51)

What do you mean you've never experienced anything like this?

Mehdi Hassan (3:54)

You walk into a warehouse in East LA and you're surrounded. It was super hot. AC is not working properly. And literally they're sitting there in a circle. Freak show. And you sit down and it's on. They just go crazy from minute one.

Hussan (4:09)

Did you know they were alt right or did you just.

Mehdi Hassan (4:11)

No, I thought they're just going to be, you know, Trump supporters, conservatives, right wing people. I didn't know they're going to be. Hey, I'm a fascist. No, I didn't know that guy would be there. You're a little bit more than a far right Republican. Hey, what can I say? I think you say I'm a fascist.

Hussan (4:26)

Yeah, I am. Absolutely.

Mehdi Hassan (4:31)

I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is on this, because you know that millions of people are going to be watching you on YouTube and checking out who the fascists and the Nazis are. I'm not ashamed of that.

Hussan (4:40)

What?

Mehdi Hassan (4:40)

No, clearly you're not. Jury. I didn't know there would be great replacement people. I didn't know one of the guys would turn out, according to the Guardian, to be linked to the Proud Boys. No, I had no idea. I took one security guard with me. I should have taken an army. What is the deal?

Hussan (4:53)

What happened with Conor the fascist?

Mehdi Hassan (4:55)

He claims to have lost his job after the show. I'm not sure if I believe him.

Hussan (4:58)

He had a gofundme going because apparently he lost a job. But let me.

Mehdi Hassan (5:02)

The fascist? Yes. What world we live in, Conor the fascist. It's totally normal.

Hussan (5:05)

But set this up so he's the guy who was like, I'm proudly a fascist.

Mehdi Hassan (5:08)

Yeah. Giggling I'm a fascist. You know Nazis. Well, you know, were they that bad, that guy? And that was right at the beginning. This is like Hassan, 20 minutes in, I'm there for two and a half hours and already I'm thinking, what am I doing here? How do I get out of here? Like, there's a toilet break in the middle. And I went out and my producer with me, I was like, what are we doing here? How do I escape?

Hussan (5:28)

But when that view count hit. Did you like it? You glad you stayed?

Mehdi Hassan (5:31)

I did. I knew you did. I don't lie to you, Hassan. I don't lie to you, hassan. I knew 13 million encounters.

Hussan (5:39)

The fact that you know what the.

Mehdi Hassan (5:40)

Well, it was 40 million a while ago. It might be high now.

Hussan (5:42)

A while ago, Meaning you checked two days ago. Now, when the last time you came on the show and I told you to turn down the spice, I was

Mehdi Hassan (5:49)

like on a psychiatrist couch.

Hussan (5:51)

The comment section, did they have my back? Oh, they had your back and they unloaded the clip on me. How dare you, Hasan. Turn up the spine. Grow a spine. Be like Mehdi. Yes, I work at Kaiser. Of course I'm doing this on a private browser, but you on the gutters of YouTube need to grow a pear.

Mehdi Hassan (6:10)

Guttese of YouTube. Have you grown a pear since?

Hussan (6:13)

I wish I could go as hard in the paint as you. I wish I could have the pantone that you have. But I just want to let you know from here on out this discussion.

Mehdi Hassan (6:19)

Good.

Hussan (6:20)

I've learned my lesson. We're gonna turn up the spice.

Mehdi Hassan (6:22)

I'm glad that you just bow down to your commenters.

Hussan (6:24)

Are you ready to go hot ones and turn up the spice in this conversation?

Mehdi Hassan (6:27)

I was born ready.

Hussan (6:28)

We're gonna start with a lil Tang.

Mehdi Hassan (6:29)

Okay?

Hussan (6:30)

Mild warmup. Who's Your favorite? Spice Girl.

Mehdi Hassan (6:35)

Sporty Spice.

Hussan (6:38)

She's my second favorite.

Mehdi Hassan (6:39)

Who's your favorite? Don't say posh.

Hussan (6:40)

Scary Spice. Okay, I am a little goth. And then Sporty Spice was my second.

Mehdi Hassan (6:45)

Who was. Which one was Emma Bunton?

Hussan (6:46)

I don't know.

Mehdi Hassan (6:47)

I don't remember.

Hussan (6:48)

Let's go a little spicier.

Mehdi Hassan (6:49)

Wow. Spice. Okay.

Hussan (6:50)

Islamophobia. GOP Islamophobia. Let's turn it up a little bit. Last month, Senator Tommy. Is it Tuberville?

Mehdi Hassan (6:56)

Tuberville.

Hussan (6:57)

Tuberville. Last month, Senator Tommy Tuberville. Is it Tuberville?

Mehdi Hassan (7:01)

Tuberville.

Hussan (7:04)

Last month, Senator Tommy Tuberville tweeted, quote, the enemy is inside the gates, along with a photo of 9 11. And then Zoran Mamdani. What's your response?

Mehdi Hassan (7:14)

Well, he happens to be the dumbest member of the Senate. So when he. I mean, I get upset with Islamophobia, but when he tweets Islamophobia, I always think, is it concussion? Is it a brain injury? He is one of the dumbest people ever elected to high office. He's a former football coach who was apparently good at football. He knows nothing about anything. And now he has jumped on the Islamophobia train like so many of the white supremacists in the Republican Party. So when he posts stuff like this, he doesn't know anything about Islam or Muslims. I would love for you to get him on the show and ask him just some basic questions about Islam. The man knows nothing.

Hussan (7:46)

So when you woke up and you saw this, did you reply to this? You quote, tweet him?

Mehdi Hassan (7:50)

Probably. Okay, Hassan. How would I remember? I do so many.

Hussan (7:54)

You know, it's interesting because I wanted to know your spicy hot take on this, but if the New York Times were to see this tweet, they would probably call this tweet insensitive.

Mehdi Hassan (8:01)

Yes.

Hussan (8:01)

Maybe divisive.

Mehdi Hassan (8:02)

Racially insensitive.

Hussan (8:03)

Racially insensitive.

Mehdi Hassan (8:03)

They use all these stupid euphemisms. Or it's racist, it's bigoted, it's white supremacist.

Hussan (8:07)

No, no, no. They would.

Mehdi Hassan (8:08)

No, I'm saying that.

Hussan (8:09)

I know, but the New York Times would call this quote outside the norms or bounds.

Mehdi Hassan (8:14)

Yes, they would.

Hussan (8:16)

Each.

Mehdi Hassan (8:16)

They're the masters of euphemisms. We. Because we've normalized Islamophobia. You know this because if you'd said that about Jewish communities or black communities, people in the mainstream media would take a much stronger line. Muslims, no one gives a shit.

Hussan (8:29)

But why, as someone who works in media, why is that type of language used. Obviously I did it as a joke. They would say, senator Tuberville uses insensitive tweet, divisive tweet. What's happening in the newsroom? What is shaping that decision to use?

Mehdi Hassan (8:48)

Fantastic question. It's one of the reasons I founded Zateo, because I wanted the freedom to be able to say racist, fascist, these words that genocide, these words that a lot of mainstream media run, run away from. And if you sit in mainstream media newsrooms as I have, you find that a lot of it is cowardice. You don't rock the boat. You don't stick your head above the parrot. You don't say anything controversial. A lot of it is ignorance. People don't quite realize how bad some of this stuff is, the broader context of Islamophobia globally and nationally. And some of it is just, I don't know, it's just liberals self flagellating and trying to be overly fair to the other side. The liberals have been played by the right. The right spent so long telling liberal media, you're liberal, you're biased that now you have people in the media who go out of their way to be fair, even to racists. And I've heard arguments from people, I'm not gonna take names, but I've heard from very silly people in the media who'll say, you can't call Donald Trump a racist. You can't call Tommy Tuberville a racist. You don't know what's in his heart. That's the kind of bullshit they hide behind. You wouldn't say that about an anti Semite.

Hussan (9:50)

Let's turn up the spice a bit more.

Mehdi Hassan (9:52)

Cool.

Hussan (9:52)

Let's talk about the DNC in Gaza. This was something that was analyzed in depth. You covered it. Obviously. The DNC is refusing to release its 2024 election autopsy, but someone apparently leaked it to Axios and it concluded that Kamala Harris lost significant support because of Biden's Gaza policy. Do you think that's why they're keeping it secret?

Mehdi Hassan (10:11)

Yes, 100%. And we're meeting, we're taping this on the day. The DNC just voted to reject a motion calling for the condemnation of aipac, which is very unpopular in the Democratic Party. But the DNC said no, no, no, no, no. The DNC is of course, the establishment, the Democratic National Committee of the party. It's very strange to do a post mortem on why you lost and then not tell people why you lost. What was the point of doing it because you got results you didn't like we knew those of us who said Gaza would be an issue in the election, unfortunately we were frustratingly vindicated. Those of us who TR the alarm bell and say Democrats, people are not going to turn out in swing states, people in places like Michigan, some of them might even vote for Trump. They're going to buy his bullshit about being anti war. How did that work out? And we were shot down. Like don't shoot the messengers. We were shot down. Oh, you're letting Trump in. You're not being clear. No, no, we're just telling you what people are thinking. People are upset. And there was a denial of what was going on in the rank and file amongst young voters, amongst Arab American voters, amongst lefty voters. And now they've kind of conceded, they've looked. The polling was very clear a while back hasan that swing voters were saying that Gaza was a big issue for them. They were telling pollsters this and there was this denial and there was that famous moment you remember Kamala Harris goes on the View and they say to her, this is just before the election. What would you have done differently from Joe Biden? And she said nothing.

Hussan (11:30)

Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years?

Mehdi Hassan (11:36)

There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of, and I've been a part of most of the

Hussan (11:42)

decisions that have had impact and that was it.

Mehdi Hassan (11:44)

I watched that. I thought she could lose. That was the moment. Until then I thought she could win. I think she can win this. She's a better candidate Biden. And I thought after that she's screwed.

Hussan (11:52)

So I want to show you a clip from May 2024. This is Mitt Romney talking to Anthony Blinken about the TikTok ban during the Biden administration. Let's take a look. Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the, the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians relative to other social media sites, it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcast. So I, I know that's of real interest and the President will get the chance to, to make action in that regard. Okay, so is this basically the political establishment's take on TikTok that we just got to get the cell phone out of the kids hands? Is that what it is?

Mehdi Hassan (12:34)

I mean, because of the war. This is the definition of quiet part loud. Mitt Romney's not supposed to say that stuff on a stage. That's the kind used to Say in smoke filled rooms, he's telling the then Secretary of State, there's a senior Republican senator on stage, we got to do something about TikTok because it's super pro Palestine. And it's like, that wasn't what you were publicly saying at the time. You remember, Hasan, the argument was, it's owned by China. It's Chinese propaganda. And some of us said at the time, it's not really about China, it's about Israel, Palestine. And then Mitt Romney goes out and confirms it. And you're like, wow. One thing I say about the modern Republican Party, not just Romney, Cruz, Trump himself, the one redeeming feature is they. They're like. They're like the villains in the Scooby Doo movies or even the Bond movies. They just reveal the whole thing. I don't.

Hussan (13:16)

They think they're playing in the plot.

Mehdi Hassan (13:18)

Yeah, they just say everything. And I was like, all right, thanks. That's very useful for those of us who are accused of being conspiracy theories. If I say they're banning TikTok because Israel, you'll say anti Semitic conspiracy theories. Mitt Romney just said it. We all heard him say it. That's why they did it. It's repression. They were losing the argument. The Democratic Party establishment, the political establishment as a whole, they've lost the argument on Palestine. Hasan, if you look at the recent polls, I never thought in my lifetime American public would tell pollsters we support Palestinians more than Israelis. That is now what Gallup and Pew is showing. Pew is showing that under the age of 50, everyone in America is more pro Palestinian than anti Israel, including Republicans under the age of 50. So there's a generational change here happening in terms of attitudes to Israel that we've never seen before and after. It's a shame it took a genocide for the American public to wake up to our misguided support for Israel. But that's where we are. And instead of engaging with where the public's at, instead of engaging with why they've changed their views because they saw a genocide. The answer from the political establishment to say, shut down any independent discussion of Gaza control. Take control back of what people are seeing, hearing, speaking about. And it's not just TikTok. David Ellison bought Paramount boss, bought cbs, now buying cnn, Warner Brothers. It's all part of the same thing. Control the discourse. Limit what people can hear and see about Gaza and Israel.

Hussan (14:31)

Well, there's three buckets in regards to. Let's talk about the TikTok issue. You clearly laid that out. Number One, it's Chinese interference. That's one part of the argument. The second one was what Mitt Romney was saying of hey, we're seeing the search results on TikTok. This is a big issue for people. How do they make sense of the third bucket, which is Donald Trump brought it back.

Mehdi Hassan (14:51)

Yes.

Hussan (14:52)

DJT was like, I'll give you your.

Mehdi Hassan (14:54)

He used to be anti. Classic Trump. U turn.

Hussan (14:56)

Yeah.

Mehdi Hassan (14:56)

He not just brought it back, he brought it back in violation of the law. Like there was a congressional law said you had to get rid of it. He did his own deal with Ellison's, with Rupert Murdoch, I believe. I can't remember who's in this conglomerate with some, maybe some Gulf country. I can't remember the details, but there's a group of people who came in to fund this TikTok USA spinoff, which was the compromise they did to say, okay, it's not now controlled by China, it's controlled by American right wing billionaires. Wow, great. Like the CCP or a bunch of right wing neocon billionaires. That's our choice as the American public. So Trump brought it back because he understood that what does Trump know about in the world? He knows nothing about world. He knows ratings, he knows audiences. This is what he knows. He knows spectacle. So when somebody showed Trump the numbers, he got it. In fact, he created a TikTok account. In fact, he dominated TikTok in 2024 in the run up to the election, even under the old ownership. So he understood the power of controlling these messaging platforms. Again, quiet part loud they keep saying. Pete Hexif said recently, I can't wait till CNN's under new ownership.

Hussan (15:53)

CNN reports that the Trump administration underestimated the Iran war's impact on the Strait of Hormuz. The sooner David Ellison takes over that network, the better.

Mehdi Hassan (16:04)

Brendan Carr, who's the head of the FEC mains, openly saying we need change of leadership and ownership at cnn. They're not hiding the fact that their strategy is to follow what Narendra Modi has done in India. Viktor Orban has done in Hungary, Recep Tayyip Erdogan has done in Turkey. Benjamin Netanyahu to an extent has done in Israel, which is the people in power, the authoritarians, they have their billionaire friends just take over the media. You don't send in men with guns. You don't send tanks rolling into a newsroom. You just buy it all. You change the laws to allow big companies to come take it over and then they put out content that you like.

Hussan (16:36)

Do you Want to get a little bit spicier?

Mehdi Hassan (16:37)

Sure.

Hussan (16:38)

Okay. You said yes?

Mehdi Hassan (16:40)

Always. I'm never gonna say no. Just keep going.

Hussan (16:44)

Okay.

Mehdi Hassan (16:45)

It's gonna get so spicy.

Hussan (16:47)

I mean, it's. We're gonna go into habanero hell, make no mistake.

Mehdi Hassan (16:51)

Okay.

Hussan (16:53)

Now look, Mehdi, what's very interesting is right now is as you're saying, the. The right wing is saying the quiet part out loud, or as you're saying is they're revealing what their true intentions are. But what's also interesting is there have been on particular issues a Venn diagram overlap between the right and the left big time. One person who's been very vocal on this issue recently in regards to Gaza is Tucker Carlson. You retweeted this interview last month with the Economist. Now I have to show you the graphic cuz you retweet a lot.

Mehdi Hassan (17:25)

I do, but this one I remember.

Hussan (17:26)

Okay. In addition to this retweet, is there any other background you want to give your followers about Tucker Carlson?

Mehdi Hassan (17:32)

Well, a couple of things. Number one, I've been very critical of Tucker Carlson over the years. And for the people watching at home these days, Tucker Carlson has a big fan base amongst the anti war left who see him as saying the right stuff, trying to stop Trump from illegal wars in Iran, and amongst a lot of Muslims and Arab Americans who see him now as this great champion of Palestine. Wherever I go, literally Hassan, wherever I go in this country, I do a lot of live events, I do a lot of public events. People come up to me, when are you going on Tucker Carlson? When are you going to do an event with Tucker Carlson? Why don't you do a collab with Tucker Carlson? We love Tucker Carlson. Wherever I go, people ask me more about Tucker Carlson even in my own family, than they ask me about my wife and kids. So I find myself in this difficult position. I said, well, I find myself straddling this weird divide, this insider outside divide. The insider in me gets why we shouldn't like Tucker Carlson. He said some horrific things over the years about immigrants, about Muslims, about all sorts of people.

Hussan (18:20)

Great replacement theory, which is anti Semitic theory.

Mehdi Hassan (18:23)

Also, we go through the list.

Hussan (18:24)

The election was stolen.

Mehdi Hassan (18:25)

The election was stolen Jan. 6 with a Fed shrection, all sorts of nonsense. I did a 25 minute video, I think about Tucker Carlson when I was at msnbc, just doing a debunking of all his lies, right? So I have a long memory. I'm cursed with a long memory. Unlike a lot of Americans, I remember all this. And then obviously I'M aware of, you know, how people operate in the space. A lot of it is for clicks or, you know, attention, etc. So I'm, I'm. That's the insider in me. See, Tucker, Carl says, oh, I know what he's doing, and I remember who he is. The outsider in me says, you know what? Our media is so broken. Tucker Carlson's saying what a lot of mainstream media not saying. And do I like Tucker Carlson? Not personally. Does he like me? I've heard he doesn't like me. But he's saying what needs to be said and he's saying things that other people aren't saying. And he's taking on people on his own side. Remember, that's a key point. Right? People in America love it when you take on your own side. Everyone can take on the other side. But when the left goes after Democrats or the right goes after Maga, that's a big thing. And he took apart Mike Huckabee recently, the U.S. ambassador to Israel. He took apart Ted Cruz, of course. Hilarious. I loved it. And wherever I go, people ask me about Tucker and I say, look, my view is I'm the Jon Stewart popcorn meme. Like, I'm that guy. I'm just loving watching it. As an outsider, I don't take sides. This is the rights Internet sun warfare. I'm glad he's doing it. I'm glad he's. Him and others, Marjorie Taylor Greene, are causing some shit on the right. Does that mean we all have to ally with them and say they're amazing people? I'm not so sure. And so I'm torn on this. That tweet got me in a lot of trouble with liberals on blue Sky. I got dragged for that tweet.

Hussan (19:49)

I don't go on blue. You're checking the comments on blue Sky.

Mehdi Hassan (19:53)

I check everywhere. So on blue sky, I got dragged. Hassan dragged by liberals saying, oh, he's normalizing Tucker Carlson. So on the one hand, I get dragged by liberals saying, why are you normalizing Tucker? On the other hand, I get Muslims and leftists saying, why are you being mean to Tucker? He's saying the right thing on Israel. So I'm in that weird space, which I find myself increasingly in these days, where I'm kind of trying to straddle some divide.

Hussan (20:10)

How do you make sense of the accusation that people may say that you're sane washing Tucker Carlson? The same way people accuse the mainstream media of, quote unquote, normalizing or sane washing Donald Trump.

Mehdi Hassan (20:21)

The difference is the word sane with Trump is Relevant, right? He says insane shit and then they tidy it up. The media, that's sane. Washington, insane. The issue with Tucker is are you normalizing some of his other bigotry? Right? And that is a legitimate question. There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable and wonder about the agenda. Is he speaking out in Israel, Palestine? And I don't know the answer to this question, but I can understand why people raise this question. Is he speaking about Israel, Palestine because he's genuinely now revulsed by war? He's anti war, He's a kind of old school Pat Buchanan, isolationist Republican? Or is he speaking out because he's anti Semite and doesn't like Jews and doesn't like Israel? People level this at Candace Owens legitimately. She says some crazy about synagogues and Satan and other things and Hitler. Is that the case with Tucker? Is that the case with Marjorie Taylor Greene? When it comes to far right conservatives and their opposition to Israel, a lot of people are nervous because we, we want allies, right? We're so used to being in a minority. Those of us who've been pushing the pro Palestinian cause in media and politics, we want allies. But are these the right allies? Do they have the same intentions as us? The only thing I noticed about Tucker Carlson is whenever he talks about Gaza, he talks about Christians in Gaza. He talks about churches being bombed in Gaza outrageously. Okay, but mosques are as well, that we should condemn that too. I saw him speak recently about Lebanese Christians being killed, which is outrageous. But how about Lebanese Shias or Lebanese Sunnis? So my worry is that if, you know, do we get into bed with Christian nationalists? Because right now we have a common enemy. I've never been of the school of thought. Hassan of my enemy's enemy is my friend. I just think that's too cynical a worldview. I think we have to be principled and consistent.

Hussan (21:49)

How do you, as someone who speaks in a British accent and speaks very quickly, which makes you very talented in the media space, how do you then engage with Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens or Nick Fuentes? If they offered you to come on their podcast, would you?

Mehdi Hassan (22:05)

Well, definitely not Nick Fuentes and I have been asked to go on. I've been asked to do stuff with Candace. I said no, Tucker Carlson has not invited me on his show. I would love to have him on my show so I could get to the bottom of some of these questions and ask him some tough questions about where is this all coming from? Where does this all go? Again, one of my other criticisms, these guys is they Helped bring Trump, like Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, Candace. They're all now saying, my God, why is Trump in Iran? This is so bad. And then all these Muslims and leftists are like, yeah, they're speaking out. I want some accountability. They gave us Trump. We wouldn't have Trump term two were it not for Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Candace, and the rest. So I want some accountability. Would I go on the shows? I don't know. At the moment, probably not. I understand the argument. A lot of people come to Army. You should do it. You'll reach a new audience. But then there's other people who'll be very upset with me because they will legitimately say, are you. Are you mainstreaming their other views? Are you okay with their other views? I don't know the answer, Hassan. It's a really tough one because Gaza is a massive issue for me. As you know, Palestine's a big issue. Changing the consensus on Palestine is important to me. We need allies. But is there a way to do it with these people saying, okay, we all agree on this, we'll carry on, disagree on everything else. So I don't agree with Tucker on immigration. I don't agree with him on ice.

Hussan (23:14)

Right.

Mehdi Hassan (23:14)

On deportation.

Hussan (23:16)

It's almost like you would need a book to tell you how to win that argument.

Mehdi Hassan (23:18)

I wish. Maybe there's a book to read.

Hussan (23:20)

If only. Hey, what do you think of the Dems turning Hasan Piker's livestream into some weird litmus test? What's going on with that? Because didn't they. Didn't they want a Joe Rogan for the left? They kept saying.

Mehdi Hassan (23:29)

They kept saying it, but they didn't mean it. Hasan. And they. It's. It's hilarious. Yeah.

Hussan (23:34)

Why is it a litmus test?

Mehdi Hassan (23:36)

It's hilarious to see what they do

Hussan (23:37)

because I'm here for the B ball and the weightlifting. I was trying to deadlift with my Turkish brother. I was trying to.

Mehdi Hassan (23:41)

Can you. Can you keep up with Hasan?

Hussan (23:43)

No.

Mehdi Hassan (23:43)

No.

Hussan (23:44)

But it'd be cool to have him as a spot him to spot me. That'd be cool.

Mehdi Hassan (23:47)

Would you stand in a photo with him?

Hussan (23:49)

I've seen a photo with him.

Mehdi Hassan (23:50)

Super tall, very tall.

Hussan (23:51)

And my man is built.

Mehdi Hassan (23:53)

He's built. It's a good ad for the Muslim community. I don't think he really identifies very much, but as a brown man, he's a good ad. Yeah. It's insane what that makes it.

Hussan (24:01)

Friends says he's handsome.

Mehdi Hassan (24:02)

Jessica Tarlov said she. It's objectively true that he's Good looking, objectively true.

Hussan (24:06)

On Fox, they said, Hasan Piker, he is objectively handsome. Look at the New York Times profile of him. I mean, he is of course, my queen.

Mehdi Hassan (24:15)

My queen. I take a hard pass on him to make him into this boogeyman. We have a war, illegal war in Iran where we're massacring schoolgirls, threatening the end of civilization. You have the Israelis massacring people in Beirut. You have prices at home sky high. And on top, you have ICE rounding up American citizens. CNN is doing multiple segments on Hassan Baika. Like, what is going on here? The media is broken. I know, but come on, it's the Mitt Romney TikTok moment. We can't out debate these people. We can't beat them with facts and figures. So we must silence them. We must ostracize them. And by the way, all these Democrats who were asked recently, like Cory Booker and Alyssa, would you go on Hassan Piker's stream? Hasan had a great response. I didn't even invite you. But I would say to them, they, oh, no, we wouldn't go on this. They go on Bill Maher. Bill Maher has said openly racist things about Muslims, about black people, horrifically misogynistic things. You all go on Bill Maher. Like, the double standard is just so brazen. People can see through this Bullshit now. It's 2026. The old ways don't work.

Hussan (25:16)

You wanna get spicier?

Mehdi Hassan (25:17)

Sure.

Hussan (25:18)

Okay, let's talk about Iran. Right now, there's three major camps that I'm getting information about when it comes to Iran. WhatsApp, Reddit in the comments section, a very healthy IV drip.

Mehdi Hassan (25:27)

I'm sure you know exactly what's happening.

Hussan (25:29)

You're on the show, you're plugged in, you have primary sources. What are you hearing as you ignore your family and you walk past them and log online?

Mehdi Hassan (25:38)

I do do that, unfortunately.

Hussan (25:39)

Yeah, I know, I know. They're eating breakfast and you go, let me just get right into the mainframe.

Mehdi Hassan (25:43)

There's a war on. Yeah, there's a war. You got to make sacrifices.

Hussan (25:45)

Sure.

Mehdi Hassan (25:46)

There's a war on.

Hussan (25:46)

Yeah, yeah, they're eating Froot Loops. Stop.

Mehdi Hassan (25:50)

I don't even know what they're eating.

Hussan (25:51)

What? Who knows?

Mehdi Hassan (25:52)

Who knows how many kids are nutritious? Sure. Two, last time I checked. Last time you checked, Iran. What is happening in Iran?

Hussan (25:57)

It's.

Mehdi Hassan (25:58)

I mean, we're taping this the day or two days after a ceasefire, which is not really a ceasefire because they just massacred a bunch of people in Lebanon. Then they said Lebanon wasn't part of the deal. But then the Iranians revealed the points that show Lebanon's part of the deal. And the Pakistani prime minister's on record saying it's part of the deal. By the way, Pakistan peacemakers. Nice. I don't think it's over. If you think it's over, you're wrong.

Hussan (26:17)

How do the America first people make sense of this? Because the whole consensus behind the MAGA movement was you have to put America first. And then, of course, the culture war. Why are the M and Ms.

Mehdi Hassan (26:31)

Gay?

Hussan (26:33)

And why is the Little Mermaid black? Yes, these were their core issues.

Mehdi Hassan (26:36)

Core issues.

Hussan (26:37)

And then, yeah, immigration. I just don't want brown people here. But these were kind of their. These were their core issues. How do they make sense of now, Donald Trump being the famous anti war president now getting the United States involved in a very serious war?

Mehdi Hassan (26:52)

So I think you need to divide up the American public. You have the MAGA base and they have no core beliefs or principles. They are a Trump cult. Right. Let's just be very clear about that. This is a Trump cult. I hear people telling me maga's split on this war because of Tucker Carlson, because of Candace Owens. Yeah, I get it. The influencers are split. The people. No, look at the polling. Trump still has 80%, 70% support amongst the MAGA base. When it comes to the Iran war, they will follow him wherever he goes. If Trump says we must invade Iran, MAGA supports it. If Trump says we must not invade Iran, MAGA supports it. If tomorrow Trump says tariffs are bad, MAGA supports it. Tariffs are good, MAGA supports it. This is a cult. And when Trump says, I decide what MAGA is, that's one of the rare moments in the day when he's not lying. It's true. Donald Trump decides what MAGA is. There's no consistent philosophy.

Hussan (27:39)

The.

Mehdi Hassan (27:39)

Don't be fooled. At the last election, the Republican Party didn't even put out a plank. They didn't put out a policy platform. They said, whatever Trump says, that's a cult. That's the definition of a cult.

Hussan (27:50)

What moment happened for you that made you say it's for sure a cult?

Mehdi Hassan (27:55)

Oh, very early on.

Hussan (27:56)

Really?

Mehdi Hassan (27:56)

So late 2015. 2015.

Hussan (27:58)

Oh, interesting.

Mehdi Hassan (27:58)

So the moment I knew it was a cult, the people behind him, I didn't know the entire party would become a cult, but I knew that he had cultivated cult. Do you remember he was sitting on stage and he said, John McCain, he wasn't a war hero. I like war heroes who didn't get captured. He's not a war hero. Hero.

Hussan (28:12)

He's a war hero.

Mehdi Hassan (28:13)

Five and a half years.

Hussan (28:14)

He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured.

Mehdi Hassan (28:18)

I was like, everyone who. His campaign's over. You can't say that about a war hero in the Republican Party.

Hussan (28:23)

Yeah, yeah.

Mehdi Hassan (28:24)

Trump got away with. His poll ratings went up. That was the moment. I was like, oh, wow, this guy's Teflon. This guy can say whatever he wants and get away with it. Remember, he said during that campaign, I could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and get away with it. A rare truthful statement from Donald Trump. In fact, he shot two Americans this year. His forces did. His paramilitaries did. Got away with it. Still in office. So on the MAGA front, I don't buy that they were ever anti war. They were just whatever Trump said at the time. Now, there is a constituency in the American public. Swing voters who don't want foreign wars are fatigued by endless wars. Don't want another Afghanistan, Iraq. Now, some of them, did they fall for Trump's bullshit shtick? Yes. Did Muslims in places like Dearborn, Michigan, say, well, Kamala Harris is a warmonger. She's campaigning with Liz Cheney. Which he stupidly did. So Donald Trump came to Michigan, he said, no more wars. Stephen Miller said, we're not going to send your boys to the Middle East. And some of them bought that shit. Some people like me were like, no, he's not anti war. Remember the first term? He bombed Somalia, he bombed Syria, he bombed Iraq, he killed Hasim Soleimani, he did more drone strikes than Barack Obama. We just never heard about this in all the shit show of term one. He was super warmongering in term one, and people thought he was going to be anti war. And now to go back to your question about America. First, their argument is we're just imperialists now, right? It's the Donroe doctrine. We just take what we want. Like Venezuela, we take the oil, right?

Hussan (29:39)

Greenland.

Mehdi Hassan (29:40)

Greenland's next. Yeah, we'll take out Greenland, we'll take out Iran for the oil. You see what he said the other day when he was asked about the Strait of Hormuz and the tolls that the Iranians are going to charge? We'll do it with them. It's a great idea. We'll make money. That's what he cares about.

Hussan (29:53)

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Mehdi Hassan (31:01)

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Hussan (31:07)

did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but

Mehdi Hassan (31:21)

I can never unsee that. Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

Hussan (31:31)

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Mehdi Hassan (32:10)

Help me

Hussan (32:10)

make sense of the way the media frames Iranian history. Anytime I see historical context on Iran, especially in the American media, it always starts with back in 1979, the Iranian Revolution. The origin of Iran's current Islamic government and its antagonistic relationship with the west can be traced to the 1979 Islamic Revolution. The history. The revolution 47 years ago that brought

Mehdi Hassan (32:33)

the first Ayatollah to power, replacing a secular society. The kind of place where women dressed and dreamed as they wished.

Hussan (32:41)

Why does history start at 1979? Did anything important happen before that?

Mehdi Hassan (32:45)

Nothing. The world began in the Middle east on 1979. You know what's really bad? Not only do we not know the history of our relationship with Iran, but the Iranians are the exact opposite. They super read, they're super into history. Everyone in Iran can tell you about what happened in 1953. In America, nobody knows what happened in 1953.

Hussan (33:01)

So tell us what happened. 1953.

Mehdi Hassan (33:03)

1953. Mohamed Mossadegh.

Hussan (33:05)

Yeah.

Mehdi Hassan (33:06)

Is the Prime Minister of Iran. Democratically elected. Nationalized oil nationalizes the oil, kicks out foreigners. Americans get. Brits get really upset. Americans get upset. Send a guy called Kermit Roosevelt, descendant of the former president. CIA guys help pay for riots and protests in the streets.

Hussan (33:22)

The CIA overthrows him.

Mehdi Hassan (33:23)

You want to hear a really good bit? Who do they ally with? They ally with the mullahs, the ayatollahs, the clerics against this secular communist leftist Mossadegh. Ironically, the same people we've now demonized for the last 46 years who were in power. And they bring back the Shah. Shah is this fantastically corrupt and autocratic ruler, has a secret police called savak, tortures and kills people, but lets women wear mini skirts. And everyone can be, you know, free in that way. It was a horrible period from 1953 to 1979, which helps bring about the revolution. But it was a revolution that wasn't just Islamic. It had secularists and leftists and communists. But the Islamic part of it consolidated and crushed the rest of it. Ayatollah Khomeini. But we start in 79. We don't talk about the coup in 1953. Everyone in Iran knows about the coup in 1953. We also don't talk about what happened after 1979. The moment they come to power. We supported who? Saddam Hussein. To invade Iran and carry out the Iran Iraq war. Eight year long war in which Saddam used chemical weapons against Iranians. Chemical weapons provided by Brits, French Americans. Donald Rumsfeld goes to meet with Saddam in the 80s to support him in his war. We, we shoot down their airliner. We shoot down flight 655. I think it was USS Vincennes.

Hussan (34:36)

Yes.

Mehdi Hassan (34:36)

Shoots down, kills over.

Hussan (34:37)

This is in 1988.

Mehdi Hassan (34:38)

This is 1988 towards the end of the Iran Iraq where we shoot them down I think of over international waters. The United States this afternoon acknowledged that a missile from an American ship in

Hussan (34:46)

the Persian Gulf shot down accidentally An Iran Air passenger plan plane with 290 people on board. All of those people passengers and crew

Mehdi Hassan (34:55)

believed to have died in the crash. Oh, dead we had him got it.

Hussan (35:06)

That was a dead on. Looked like it's ass and then the

Mehdi Hassan (35:13)

guy was there and then he was gone. We gave that guy's list he was

Hussan (35:17)

went to see our I didn't see a parachute either.

Mehdi Hassan (35:20)

George H.W. bush Vice President says I will never apologize for the United States.

Hussan (35:24)

Well furthermore, the guy who did it got a medal the Legion of Merit.

Mehdi Hassan (35:28)

Yes. So we blow up their airliner, we support Saddam Hussein attacking them and before the revolution we support the bringing back the Shah and topple their Deborah and then we say why do they hate us? What do they have? What do we ever do to them? They killed our troops in Iraq, they supported terrorist groups in the region. They've only done better. And by the way, just to be clear, people say Iran's stooge Iran has done lots of bad things. No one's denying that. But the idea that this is one way traffic that we have not done bad things to Iran and the Iranian people is absurd. And by the way, there were many moments to have some kind of reconciliation. People don't know that after 911 on 9 11, you know, on September 11, 2001, you know what Iranians and Tehran did? They went out with candlelights on the streets of Tehran to show solidarity with the victims of 9 11.

Hussan (36:11)

In Tehran this week, demonstrators held a candlelight vigil for victims of the attacks in New York and Washington. And Iran's foreign minister was quoted today as saying his government wants those behind the attacks quote tracked down and severely punished.

Mehdi Hassan (36:25)

That was a moment there for the Americans and Iranians to have some reconciliation. In fact, our invasion of Afghanistan was helped by the Iranians. The Iranians provided intel support on the ground to topple the Taliban. There were many moments after the invasion of Iraq. The Iranians reached out, so let's do a deal. And George Bush rejected it, threw it in the trash can. So we had many moments to fix this stuff and we refused to do so, partly because we were backing Israel the whole time. And Israel doesn't want a peace deal with Iran.

Hussan (36:50)

What does Iran as a country, why has it always had this kind of Rocky 3. Rocky 4. Similar to the Russians. Kind of fog over the American public. What's up with that? Why Rookie four? You know what I'm talking about? You know what I'm talking about.

Mehdi Hassan (37:03)

My favorite.

Hussan (37:03)

Yeah. The way they are, the Russians. We gotta beat the Russian.

Mehdi Hassan (37:07)

And then they all cheer him at the end.

Hussan (37:08)

Yeah. The Iranians.

Mehdi Hassan (37:10)

I was a Dolph Lundgren fan. The Iranians, yes. But a lot of times, partly it's the hostage crisis. Let's just be clear. The hostage played a big part in the American imagination in the 1980s.

Hussan (37:18)

Yes.

Mehdi Hassan (37:18)

And then you had a bunch of Chuck Norris movies who passed away recently. Chuck Norris, a lot of Hollywood played a big role in kind of the Iran demonization. Even the recent top Gun maverick film, which is a great movie, but that's clearly Iran that he's trying to attack. And then you had a real life moment where this pilot went down. Iran, yes. Iran has been boogeyman. And go back to 2003. Hassan. George Bush wants to attack Iraq right after 9, 11. Iraq did not attack America. Iran did not attack America. North Korea did not attack America. But David Frum, his speech writer, comes up with this axis of evil phrase which brings these three together until that moment. Iran is trying to do a deal. And George Bush says, axis of evil. They've just been helping you in Afghanistan. Axis of evil. And there always has to be this boogeyman. And they've been planning. I wrote about this recently for Zateo. They've been Planning since the mid-1990s, the neocons to take out Iran. You go back and read the clean break memo, 1995. Some of the most influential neoconservatives around Georgia, it was pre Bush during the Clinton administration. They're writing policy proposals saying, we've got to take out Syria, we've got to take out Iran. We've got to take out all these. And they have all these. Syria. Bashar al Assad's regime changed. Saddam. They said, we've got to take out Iraq. One, two. You know what's at the end of every list? Iran. That's the real goal. And here we are 2026.

Hussan (38:28)

One of the things that's also loomed large in the conversation for a long time, ever since I was a kid, was that Iran has nuclear weapons. You have no idea what they have now. A recent poll showed that 25% of Americans believe Iran has nuclear weapons. Another 45% believe that they're actively working to develop them. Is any of that true?

Mehdi Hassan (38:46)

No. And you don't have to take my word for it.

Hussan (38:48)

But why do people believe that, then?

Mehdi Hassan (38:49)

Oh, because they've been lied to. They've been lied to. Not just by Fox, by the way, they've been lied to by media across the board. CBS News Recently, I think 60 Minutes did a tweet talking about Iran's nuclear weapons. They had to be corrected by the general public. There are no nuclear weapons in Iran and they were not building nuclear weapons. We're lied to by people who have agendas. Pro Israel agendas, anti Iran agendas, anti Muslim agendas, whatever it is. And, you know, military industrial complex. No. And don't take my word for it. Tulsi Gabbard, someone I've no time for. Director of National Intelligence. Go. Trump's Director of National went in front of Congress last year and said the US intelligence community's consensus view going back to 2007, nearly 20 years, is that Iran does not have nukes, is not building nukes, and Ayatollah Khamenei, then alive, now dead, has not given the order to build nukes.

Hussan (39:33)

The IC continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon. And Supreme Leader Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003.

Mehdi Hassan (39:43)

In fact, Ayatollah Khamenei produced a fatwa in the 90s as an ayatollah, as a religious leader saying, nukes are haram. They're un Islamic. We can't build nukes.

Hussan (39:50)

Iran's supreme leader has issued a fatwa against the development of nuclear weapons.

Mehdi Hassan (39:54)

But the U.S. forget him. U.S. intelligence community says there are no nukes and they're not building nukes. The iaea, the inspectors say no military program, no weapons program. But these guys and Democrats are partly to blame for this, too. They bought into this idea that Iran is this nuclear threat that they're about to do you remember, you've, you've seen, you've seen the video of Netanyahu online from, like 30 years going, they're two weeks away from nukes. They're always two weeks away from nukes. It's been 30 years. He's been telling us they're two weeks away from nukes, but they're not.

Hussan (40:20)

But most recently, the United States, the conversation around the Iranian invasion has been, we are taking out their nuclear program

Mehdi Hassan (40:29)

and they're highly enriched uranium. Yeah, they're 60.

Hussan (40:31)

So we're taking out the nuclear program. Which again, implies that.

Mehdi Hassan (40:33)

He said, he did that last year, by the way, Hassan. He said, I obliterated It. He said so.

Hussan (40:37)

Yeah.

Mehdi Hassan (40:37)

How. Why are we there? Again, it's all bullshit. It's Iraqi WMD bullshit on steroids. You know why it's worse than the Saddam thing. I would argue that the lies Donald Trump has told for Iran are bigger than the lies they told in 2003, even than George Bush and Dick Cheney. Because in 2003, at least we had evidence that Saddam once had WMDs. He had used chemical weapons against the Iranians, as I mentioned. In fact, Jesse Jackson, the late Jesse Jackson, had made a joke at one time. We know he has nukes. We know he has WMDs. And because we have the receipts, we sold them to him. With Iran, there is zero evidence of a weapons program. The IEA have never said and the US Intelligence Committee have never said they're building weapons. So there is no country in the Middle east that has nukes, except one.

Hussan (41:20)

Well, why is it then acceptable? What is it about the Democratic establishment that's like, you know what, fine, you want to commit war crimes, but just give me. Give me an itinerary. Yes, I love an itinerary. Give me a PDF, send me a

Mehdi Hassan (41:31)

letter what the plan is.

Hussan (41:33)

What time is.

Mehdi Hassan (41:33)

Give me a.

Hussan (41:34)

Are we departing? Give me a heads up.

Mehdi Hassan (41:36)

Yes, that is. That has been the attitude of Schumer and Jeffries, the leader of the Democrats in the House and Senate recently. They've hardened up their opposition. To be fair, they're calling for the War Powers act to prevent Trump from bombing Iran. But at the beginning, no doubt about it, that was their response. They delayed holding a war powers vote. And Hassan, it's because a lot of these people quietly, secretly support this war. They support Israel. A lot of them get funding from aipac. They're super hawkish. They get funding from military industrial complex companies. They like war. Like liking war is a bipartisan thing in the United States.

Hussan (42:04)

I don't want to cut you off. Sorry. My producer is just telling me something real quick. I got. I got to get spicier. Okay, Scott, you want me to turn it up even more? Okay. Are you okay with that?

Mehdi Hassan (42:19)

Yeah. All right. So far it's been pretty mild. Medium.

Hussan (42:22)

No. Well, let's get. Let's get into the pits of habanero hell. Let's talk about war crimes. We throw around the term war criminal quite a bit.

Mehdi Hassan (42:28)

Yes. Okay. Because there's a lot of people who deserve it.

Hussan (42:30)

But let's get specific, okay? Let's name names. Who in the American political class has committed war crimes? Who'd you put in the Dock.

Mehdi Hassan (42:38)

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Without a shadow of a doubt, Hegseth was committing war crimes even before Iran. Right. Do you remember what happened in the Caribbean? They're just blowing up boats. Some of them are apparently drug dealers. Some of them are fishermen. They're just killing people. In fact, they're not just bombing them, they're coming back around to bomb the survivors. Complete war crime. A violation of American law, international law, the army code. Yeah. There's no shadow of a doubt that these people are war criminal.

Hussan (43:02)

Pete Hexath recently gave you a 60 Minutes interview shortly after the first attack, and I want to play you some of the highlights from that interview. We can be clear with the American people that this is not a fair fight, and that's on purpose. They've been killing us for 48 years, 47 years. They have unabated nuclear ambitions. What you see right now between American efforts and Israeli efforts, efforts is a generational opportunity for the people of Iran. The only ones that need to be worried right now are Iranians that think they're going to live.

Mehdi Hassan (43:31)

Iranians who think they're going to live. Not talking about the government there. Iranians. This is an administration that called for the end of Iranian civilization, that says Iranians should be worried about living. Hexath there lying, of course, about the nuclear ambitions. And, I mean, you're familiar with Pete Hexseth. He's a Christian nationalist. He, you know, we talk about Iran. You talked earlier about why does Iran have this, The Iranians, the Rocky Four Part of it is religion, right, Hassan? We see them burning flags and mullahs, long beards, Ayatollah. It's not like Saddam or. These are Islamic people. These are religious zealots. Rubio calls them messianic. You know who the religious zealots are? Our government. Our government is the one run by religious zealots, not Donald Trump. He has no religious beliefs that we know of. But Hexith, Hexith is a Christian nationalist. His pastor says women shouldn't have the right to vote. The vote. The church that his pastor's from, they're like, yeah, we shouldn't have the 19th Amendment. He invited his pastor into the Pentagon to pray. Doug Wilson, complete nut job. Hegseth has tattoos on his body of a crusader cross. He has a tattoo of kafir in Arabic on his arm. He, according to the New Yorker, was reportedly dragged from a bar drunk years ago shouting, kill all Muslims. Right? This is who this guy is, and you put him in charge of the Defense Department. Which they then renamed the War Department to. Really. So you get the point. And then he brags about. There's another clip of him where he says, we're going to show no quarter to Iranians.

Hussan (44:48)

No quarter, no mercy for our enemies.

Mehdi Hassan (44:52)

That's a war crime. That means you're not going to allow survivors to live. You're going to kill everyone. So, yes, I think if we lived in an actual just world where we were all signed up to the International Criminal Court, which we're not, the Americans never signed. Yes, he would be someone you want to pull in front of the dock and say, and of course, Donald Trump just threatening to end Iran's civilization the other week was a threat of war crimes.

Hussan (45:11)

How'd you handle that? Civilization will end tonight.

Mehdi Hassan (45:14)

How'd you.

Hussan (45:14)

What'd you do?

Mehdi Hassan (45:15)

Did you go to sleep?

Hussan (45:16)

Did you stay up all night?

Mehdi Hassan (45:17)

I didn't stay up all night because by seven he had moved the goalpost and said he wasn't going to do it. Yeah, but all day it was very stressful day. I remember someone telling me something. I was like, what are you talking about? We might have nuclear Armageddon tonight. It's a very stressful way to live in the US Right now. You have this president who already causes so much chaos and emotional turmoil and stresses us out with bullshit every day and scandal and controversy and as Steve Bannon calls it, flooding the zone with shit. And then on top of that, now you're like, should I be worried about nuclear war? Yeah.

Hussan (45:44)

Does it end tonight? Does it end for us tonight? Am I going to be here? Are a bunch of innocent people going to.

Mehdi Hassan (45:50)

It's a lot from the anti war president. I mean, this is the world we now live in, where the President of the United States. Let me remind you all, A former reality TV star, a man who appeared in Home Alone 2, now has his finger on the nuclear codes and is not just thinking about using them, but it's openly talking and threatening Armageddon. I think that is a real issue. And there's no. There's no controls on him, by the way. No one can stop him from doing it. So I remind people at home, if Trump wants to nuke someone, there's no member of Congress, there's no member of his team, there's no one who could stop him. He's a dictator in that sense.

Hussan (46:20)

Can I talk about media framing? Can you help me understand this real quick in relation to Iran? So on February 28, the United States bombed an Iranian elementary school that killed at least 175 people that we know, most of them children. The New York Times did a very detailed analysis of this that clearly placed the blame on the United States. They wrote, quote, striking a school full of children is sure to be recorded as one of the most devastating single military errors in recent decades. So that was an error killing 175 kids that go to school. That's a whoopsie. That's a whoopsie. Kind of like when you're on Instacart and you order Greek yogurt and they give you cottage cheese.

Mehdi Hassan (47:02)

Yeah. Instagram. What can you do?

Hussan (47:03)

You go to the Wrong website. Error.

Mehdi Hassan (47:05)

404.

Hussan (47:06)

That too, according to the New York Times, an error.

Mehdi Hassan (47:09)

So I'm glad you put that up there because it tells you a lot about media framing, media propaganda.

Hussan (47:14)

So error or war crime?

Mehdi Hassan (47:15)

What was that? It's 100% a war crime because errors can be war crumbs. By the way, if you don't take enough precautions when you strike targets, even if somebody didn't wake up that morning and say, I'm going to bomb a school with 160 kids, that is not the bar for war crimes. The bar for war crimes is, what precautions have you taken? Are you discriminating between combatant and non combatants? And they don't. The United States does not. We don't know if AI was used in this strike. Pete Hegsen has already told us. Iranians. Are they going to be alive? It was a double tap strike, by the way, as well, which raises all sorts of questions. Okay, the first strike was announced. What was the second strike? And by the way, the New York Times, the day it happened, you know where they put that story? I think it was page A11, if memory serves me correctly. The massacre of schoolgirls on the first day of the war didn't make the front page to make page two or three. It's like 10, 11 pages into the paper. Is that insane?

Hussan (48:06)

It is.

Mehdi Hassan (48:06)

Can you imagine if a school of Israelis or Americans.

Hussan (48:09)

It's a horrible thing. But what I want to understand is, is if you're going to engage in war, there's this thing called collateral damage, which is another way to say air. Whoopsie daisy. Error 404. Instacart messed up. The US military messed up. These things happen. So Howard Zinn wrote about civilian deaths, and I want to read this quote to you because he wrote this back during the original war on terror in the early 2000s. He writes, quote, in countless news briefings. Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, responding to reporters questions about civilian deaths and bombing, would say those deaths were unintentional or inadvertent or accidental. These words are misleading because they assume an action is either deliberate or unintentional. There's something in between for which the word is inevitable. If you engage in an action like an aerial bombing, in which you cannot possibly distinguish between combatants and civilians, the deaths of civilians are inevitable, even if not intentional. Does that difference exonerate you morally?

Mehdi Hassan (49:10)

I agree with the late Howard Zinn. And we've seen that in Gaza. We saw Israelis bombing refugee camps and schools and say, well, there may have been a Hamas militant nearby, but when you do that with the full knowledge that you're going to kill hundreds of civilians, when you're okay with that, that's not collateral damage. That is a war crime. That is not discriminating. And I think we're seeing that in Lebanon now. We're seeing that in Tehran. When you. We've normalized now the bombing of crowded civilian areas, city areas, hospitals, schools. We've torn up everything we built up after World War II, the Geneva Conventions, international humanitarian law. We tore it up for Benjamin Netanyahu in Gaza and then we thought it would just stay in Gaza. No, no, no, no. Now it's in Iran, now it's in Lebanon. And I think that is. We need to re establish that. I don't know how we reestablish it, but these people don't care. Donald Trump was asked about war crimes. They said, do you worry about war crimes? He goes, no, he doesn't accept international law. He said, only my own morals. Remember that interview did with the Times? He said, the only thing that stops me is my own morality. Not law, not restrained. And I think we have to start using the same language for ourselves that we use for others. You know what's been so interesting, Hassan? I've said this many times. I'm going to say it again. This stuff that's happening in the Middle east is happening at the same time as the Russians are bombing and invading Ukraine. And when it comes to Ukraine, we have moral clarity. We say, Russia commits war crimes, Russia hit a hospital, Russia killed kids. But when it comes to Gaza or Tehran or Beirut, the hospital spontaneously exploded. A bomb somehow killed people. People drop dead. There's no agency.

Hussan (50:34)

108 people died.

Mehdi Hassan (50:35)

And people are. But the. What's so interesting is again, A, people are seeing through media bullshit, thank God, and B, it's happening side by side. My friend Asul Rad, who's an academic, she's written for Zateo. She's done great Twitter threads showing the New York Times coverage of a Russian strike on a hospital versus an American or Israeli strike on a hospital. In that case, they'll say, Russia did it killed kids. In this case they'll say, oh, hospital was struck. We don't say who did it. We don't assign responsibility or agency. We always want to be the good guys. We would never massacre anyone. We would never deliberately bomb a school. Only Vladimir Putin would do that.

Hussan (51:09)

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Mehdi Hassan (51:38)

I mean, I think we should all have moral clarity on war crimes.

Hussan (51:40)

Well, then let's get. Let's turn it up and let's go. Maximum spice. You ready? All right. Do you want to do it?

Mehdi Hassan (51:45)

Yes.

Hussan (51:46)

Okay. I'm going to put together all these spicy topics and then I'm going to get you to turn them on. People in your profession. Mehdi Hassan, do you think members of the American media could be held accountable for war crimes, whether in Iran or Gaza?

Mehdi Hassan (52:02)

Legally? I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know what their responsibility is. But I would point out, under the 1948 Genocide Convention, Hassan, Incitement to genocide. Genocide is a form of genocide. It's a crime.

Hussan (52:14)

So you're saying.

Mehdi Hassan (52:16)

I'm saying there are people in our media. I'm not going to name all their names right now, but there are people who've said genocidal things. There are people who've egged on the Israeli military in Gaza or the American military in Iran. I think that's a real problem. I mean, you know, in Rwanda, Hassan, you remember Radio Rwanda? This was. This was. People were indicted from that radio station for inciting that genocide between the Hutus and the Tutsis.

Hussan (52:35)

Three news media executives were convicted for helping to incite.

Mehdi Hassan (52:38)

Yes, that.

Hussan (52:39)

By an international court.

Mehdi Hassan (52:41)

Because incitement to genocide is a crime. Incitement to war crimes is a crime. And I think you watch some of our cable news shows where people are kind of baying for blood. If you watch Israeli tv, don't even get me started on Israeli TV where they're all just genocidal maniacs on some of those channels saying, burn down Gaza, kill everyone in Gaza. There are no children in Gaza. That's what they're saying on Israeli tv. So those guys definitely inciting genocide. But yes, forget legal accountability. Morally, yes, we have to take responsibility. As you said earlier, there is no Iran war without the fear mongering about the Iranians, the lies about the nuclear program. Why did we go into Iraq, Hassan? Because the media lied to us about Iraq. The media laundered Donald, George Bush and Dick Cheney's lies. And again, this time round, they've done a horrible job of actually explaining what's happening in Iran. And I think, yes, journalists need to own their role, mainstream media journalists, in allowing Donald Trump to get away with that.

Hussan (53:32)

Wait a second. Wait, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So this is. You're getting hot here. So you're telling me when Bret Stephens writes a New York Times op ed saying basically invading Iran is kind of a good idea and the timing couldn't be better, you're saying that's basically a war crime?

Mehdi Hassan (53:45)

No, I'm not saying that's a war crime. I'm saying that someone who is helping to enable war crimes. Yes, the media are enablers for war crimes and crimes against humanity and genocide. That's no doubt in my mind. It's one of the reasons I created Zateo, because I was so fed up and frustrated with either the cowardice of journalists who won't call out a war crime when they see it right, or worse, some of the pundit class who are baying for blood, who are inciting hate, inciting racism, inciting war crimes. You know, you look at someone like Mark Levin at Fox, I mean, the nonsense he says on air, it's horrific.

Hussan (54:18)

They are the enemy.

Mehdi Hassan (54:19)

They're not gonna go away if there's not regime change. And we're gonna have to figure out,

Hussan (54:24)

and it's not gonna be easy, how

Mehdi Hassan (54:26)

to keep our foot on their throat.

Hussan (54:29)

I pray for the people of Persia and I pray this enemy drops dead. Is that why you started Zateo?

Mehdi Hassan (54:36)

One of the reasons, yeah. I was deeply frustrated. In the middle of a genocide, the people in the media couldn't say the G word that the New York Times was putting out memos saying, don't say occ. You know, this was a real problem for me. We have to be able to speak truth to power, especially in a war. War is when most lies are told, and that is when the media has to be most independent. Donald Trump is now threatened to prosecute any journalists who, you know, published leaks from his administration. He's threatening cnn. This is a time for the media really to stand up. Instead, what is the media doing hosting Donald Trump at the White House Correspondent's Dinner? I believe you're familiar with that event. Of course. Hosting him there without a comedian like yourself to roast him. And they're gonna wear pins, Hassan. Oh, sorry. Nap even worse, I think they would have pocket squares. Pocket squares supporting the First Amendment. Are you fucking kidding me? That is what you're gonna do at a moment when a fascist is threatening the free press at home, at a time when he's killing kids abroad. You're gonna invite him, not roast him, and then wear a pocket square or a pin to show your objection. This is a guy who mocks you, berates you, calls you fake news, threatens to sue your employees, threatens to jail your colleagues. Put Don Lemon arrested. Don Lemon raided a Washington Post reporter's home. You're gonna sit there with a pocket square? Our media is broken, Hasan. Broken.

Hussan (55:45)

It's not just a pocket square. They also invited a mentalist to do tricks. Yes.

Mehdi Hassan (55:51)

I wish you were there.

Hussan (55:52)

Joke's on you, Donald Trump.

Mehdi Hassan (55:53)

I wish you were there, Hassan.

Hussan (55:54)

They're not gonna have me back. Let's cool things down a little bit, okay? You play in the world of arguments, you play in the world of words. But so many arguments and phrases have now become virtually meaningless. Hillary Clinton used the term fake news before Donald Trump to describe Pizzagate as fake news woke. That word actually came originally from the black community. Anti vaxxers. They were screaming my body, my choice. And DEI today is now basically treated as the new N word. Yes, it is a incredibly triggering word. Apparently our words themselves losing their political power because they can be so easily co opted and twisted. As someone who lives and breathes,

Mehdi Hassan (56:38)

I think that Donald Trump has proved to be a master of kind of taking phrases, terms, words, and turning them on itself. Like fake news. As you say, fake news was originally used. People like Buzzfeed were investigating in Macedonia. There was like, all these content farms. People were sitting there serving up fake stories online, and people were talking about fake news. Trump took that and turned it into mainstream media. Saying anything critical about me is fake news. No, I don't think words have lost their value. I wouldn't do what I do. If I thought that I would, you know, I would kick it all in and go be an accountant. Not there's anything wrong with being an accountant, but that's what I would try and do, even though I'm crap at math. But words have value. I believe that. It's why I do what I do. It's why I wake up every day and write what I write, say what I say. And in fact, let's take one word, Hassan. Genocide. That's a word that has value. It has a word that's important. How do we know that? Because people have lost their minds. Trying to deny what's happening in Gaza is genocide. People have lost their jobs over it. People are screaming on the street saying it's anti Semitic blood libel to say genocide in the Democratic Party. Now people like Andy Beshear, the governor of Kentucky, or Mallory McMurray, the Senate candidate, saying, oh no, don't make it a litmus test. Don't make Democratic candidates have to say the G word. I would argue that shows the power of that word because people still understand that that is the crime of crimes and it's what we have been complicit in for the last two and a half, three years.

Hussan (57:50)

Can I get a quick update on British politics? What's going on with the Green Party? What's happening?

Mehdi Hassan (57:54)

The Green Party is actually quite hopeful moment for UK politics. In British politics there was a two and a half party system. They had the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. Poor old Liberal Democrats, you know, younger brothers, not really the big deal. Now we have a five party system in the uk. You have the Conservatives, labor and Lib Dems. And then you have Reform run by Nigel Farage, Britain's mini Trump wannabe Trump. And then you have the Green Party run by a guy called Zach Polanski. He's gay and he's Jewish and he's anti genocide. He's willing to speak out against Israel. The Green Party is now soaring in the polls. It's like overtaken the Labour Party. It's in second place in some polls behind Reform. Think about that crazy moment. These two historic parties, 100 years old, Labor, Conservative are in third and fourth. And these two new parties, one on the far right, some might say, others on the far left, are in first and second place. What does that tell you? It tells you British people, like Americans, like people around the world, are fed up. They're fed up with the status quo, they're fed up with the political and media establishment. They're fed up of being lied to and gaslit and they're willing to go to people who will speak to them. I'm not saying Nigel Farage is A liar, in my view. But he speaks in a very blunt, authentic way. He doesn't speak like he's a management consultant spewing out talking points from some pollster. And that's what people want. And the Green Party, Zach Polanski has been very frank about the genocide in Gaza. He's been very strong on the cost of living crisis, billionaires ripping people off and people like that, and people like someone who's offering them hope and a vision. Not like the current Labour government, which is supposed to be a labor center left party, but has no vision, no solutions for people's problems, no hope filled politics. It's all bland, bureaucratic, technocratic politics. People are fed up of that shit.

Hussan (59:32)

Mehdi, I hope you felt okay. We got a little spicy. Things got a little heated here, maybe for you. Yeah, it did a little bit. I want to end with something a little bit soft because people in the comments section think I razz you, that I don't share your passion. But I'm a soft guy. I'm a sensitive guy. I want to end with.

Mehdi Hassan (59:52)

Are you saying I'm not a soft sensitive?

Hussan (59:53)

No, not at all. You're not. But I want to give you the opportunity to. To be a little bit vulnerable here. And I mean this in all seriousness,

Mehdi Hassan (60:00)

you have made me very vulnerable. Last time I literally left here thinking I need to go see a shrink. You did, you did.

Hussan (60:04)

And I hope, and hopefully it improved your personal life. But I want to end with something positive. I want to talk about. I called you recently. I want you to talk about the impact that your father had on your life and shaping your worldview. I want to give flowers to your father and I know that he meant a lot to me.

Mehdi Hassan (60:18)

I appreciate that. My father, who passed away last year, I did a video about his life and his contributions as an immigrant. The other day, I was clearing up in my house. I had some spare moments and I remembered my family and home obligations. So I went to try and clear up some crap in my office. I came across a letter my dad wrote me in 1997 in Jan. In. I went to Oxford University in 1997. Think about Brown father, immigrant sons going to Oxford. Super proud, right? I got into Oxford University. That's like gold. Of course, for D.C. immigrant parents. Of course I've done it. I made their. I made their world. My dad couldn't make it to drop me at college. He used to travel a lot. He worked for the un. He was out of the country on a assignment. He wrote me a letter saying you know, how was it? And I started reading this letter now it's like 26 years, no, 29 years later. And he says in that letter, he says, by the way, right at the end, he says, you're going to an elite university. It's an elite university. He starts quoting. My dad was a, had amazing knowledge of British history and poetry and Shakespeare and all of that classics. He starts giving me all the references of Oxford. And then he says, you're going to elite university, but don't come out of it elite because don't forget where you came from. Remember that this is all about service. Whatever you do in life, whatever you get at Oxford, it's not about the accolades, it's not about the showing off. He said, it's all about service. Remember that. Don't forget who you are. And that reading that now, thinking, man, that was great advice. That was something that even in that moment of great pride, and my dad was very proud. He was a classic Indian father. He loved talking about his kids successes. I'm not going to take that away from him. But in that moment, he understood what his son needed to hear. Don't let that all go to your head. Don't think this is all. Don't be distracted by all the shiny stuff. Understand where you came from. Understand what we're put on this planet for. Understand what your real goal is. And I hope doing what I do. He loved my journalism career. He loved supporting me. You know, other Indian dads wanted their kids to be doctors. My dad said it's fine, you don't have to be a doctor. You can try this journalism thing. I hope that I've been able to over the last 29 years, try and do some of that service. Try and remember where I came from. Try and support some of those communities that my dad came from.

Hussan (62:21)

It's really beautiful, man. Very beautiful.

Mehdi Hassan (62:23)

Thank you.

Hussan (62:24)

Yeah, man. May thee hustle, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.

Mehdi Hassan (62:34)

I don't think it's over. If you think it's over, you're wrong.

Hussan (62:37)

Have you subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet? You can listen completely ad free and get access to exclusive bonus content you won't hear anywhere else. Like my discussion with Malala on how therapy changed her life. Or my convo with Mel Robbins on how her let them theory applies to parenting. Tap. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to sign up on any app that's lemonadapremium.com.