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- [00:00]
A
Governor Moore, thank you so much for doing the show.
- [00:02]
B
Of course. Great to be with you.
- [00:03]
A
We are here at the dnc, and you know what that means.
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B
Yes.
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A
America flags. And, of course, inspiring speeches.
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B
Yes.
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A
Is it true that you're speaking at the DNC this week?
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B
I will be speaking at the dnc.
- [00:14]
A
So to get you ready, just as a little warm up before you hit that stage, I would like you to deliver a speech from a former US President that is deeply loved and revered by my generation.
- [00:26]
B
Okay.
- [00:27]
A
It's right over here. Just read this prompter.
- [00:29]
B
In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. Mankind. That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. We're fighting for our right to live. And should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, now, we will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live on. We're going to survive. Today we celebrate our Independence Day.
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A
Thank you, President Thomas J. Whitmore. Do me a favor.
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B
Yes, anything.
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A
Tell my children I love them very much.
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B
They will know.
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A
All right, you alien.
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B
In the words of my generation, hump your.
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A
That's when Randy Quaid flies the thing out. One of the most interesting things about party conventions is you get to see how each party expresses patriotism. We know how the Republicans get down. Pins, buttons, hats, and Hulk fucking Hogan.
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B
Let trumpamania run wild, brother. Let trumpamania rule again.
- [02:11]
A
Republican patriotism is always vaguely threatening, but Democratic patriotism is just vague.
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B
We are all a part of something bigger than ourselves. I believe America is ready for a better kind of politics. What binds us together is the fervent desire to be free.
- [02:34]
A
That's why I wanted to talk to Maryland Governor Wes Moore, who, on paper, looks kind of Republican. He was in the military, he was an investment banker, and he worked under Condoleezza Rice at the State Department. This is a man who knows what Dick Cheney smells like. But Wes Moore also says stuff like.
- [02:51]
B
Racism is a system. We are only going to be as great as how we are treating our most vulnerable. You should not be able to bring a firearm in a nursery.
- [03:00]
A
Governor Moore sells himself as a progressive patriot, which feels like an oxymoron. It's like hearing the phrase Al Qaeda spokesman Ryan Gosling. But Wes Moore wants to reclaim patriotism for the Democrats. So we sat down to talk about how progressives can be patriotic, why that's dumb, and why I think we should replace the military with breakdancers. Governor Wes Moore, thank you so much for being a part of the show.
- [03:33]
B
It's my pleasure. I'm excited for this, Hassan.
- [03:35]
A
So the reason why I wanted to sit down with you to governor is you are a Democratic governor, the governor of Maryland, and you have made patriotism a big part of your identity, which is normally a Republican thing. Yes.
- [03:46]
B
Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's right.
- [03:48]
A
I'll be honest. For me, my perspective, patriotism can feel kind of dark.
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B
Yeah.
- [03:56]
A
Like, you ever. You ever drive through a neighborhood and you see a ton of flags, like.
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B
Should I be in this neighborhood right now?
- [04:02]
A
Yeah. And it's not Fourth of July.
- [04:04]
B
That's right. That's right.
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A
Why do I feel that?
- [04:07]
B
Well, I think there has been a larger bastardization of this idea of patriotism. I think about the history of my family where, you know, my grandfather was the first one on my mom's side of the family, born in this country and was born down in South Carolina. And when he was just a toddler, it was actually the Ku Klux Klan that ran him out. My great grandfather was a minister, and he was a very vocal minister. And he started getting threats, and the Klan eventually, in the middle of the night, were terrorizing them to the point that he picked up his family and moved and they went back to Jamaica. And most of my family always said they would never come back to this country. But I said with my grandfather, in all of his humility, was like, this country would be incomplete without me. So he came back to this country. He became a minister like his father. And when he became. He became the first black minister in the history of the Dutch Farm Church. And when he became a minister, the same threats that were coming to his father started coming to him, but he stuck. And he always said that, you know, that my job and my obligation is I believe in this country. I believe in the hope of this country, and I'm going to stay here and I'm going to build my life, my career, my family here. But the thing I always say is that my grandfather had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life and was maybe the most patriotic American I've ever met. He believed so deeply in this country and the hope of this country.
- [05:33]
A
How did he manifest that, that patriotism? What was the action that he took that you feel represented patriotism?
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B
He was someone who first, he was so deeply committed to faith and so deeply committed to community. And he spent his entire life driving and working towards this idea, this American ideal, that only but here could a story like his be possible. And that only in a place like this that the story of his family that he helped to raise could be possible.
- [06:03]
A
Growing up, I went to public school, and we'd have to stand and give the Pledge of Allegiance even when I was in third grade. 1993.
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B
Yeah, third grade.
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A
I'm in a third. Fourth combo class at Pioneer Elementary School. And we had to stand and put your hand over your heart. I pledge allegiance to the flag announcing America. Did that feel normal to you?
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B
No, not at that point.
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A
Because it felt pretty North Korean to me. Yeah, well, one nation undergone.
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B
Indivisible.
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A
Indivisible. This nation shall not be divided, folks. You cannot divide the nation.
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B
Well, I was thinking. I was in third grade. I know. Indivisible, even met.
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A
Well, yeah, but then once I learned about mitosis and the splitting of cells, I was like, yo, this country is incredibly divisible. Go down to O'Hare Airport right now and just walk up to someone and say, hey, have you been vaccinated? And prepare to fist fight.
- [06:53]
B
It's true.
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A
No, no, no. But, Governor Moore, it's true. That act is strange.
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B
I think it is. If we believe that this idea of patriotism is both blind and if we think it has to line up in a measure of formation. Right. I don't think that's what patriotism is. You know, I'm gonna be honest. Like, I still. I still very much come from a family that has a lot of very specific and distinct and frankly, in many ways, both bifurcated and challenging opinions about the history of this country and even the present of this country. You know, I say, and this is real, where I had to convince members of my family to vote for me when I ran for governor.
- [07:34]
A
What was their. What was their critique?
- [07:36]
B
Well, that's the thing. It wasn't even a critique of me. Right. I had to convince them to vote because I don't come from that. Right. I don't come from a family background where people are like, oh, election day. What's your election plan?
- [07:47]
A
Right.
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B
There are a lot of folks in my family who are like, oh, election day was last week. Because it's not something that you think a whole lot about, was it?
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A
You know, something that happens in my community is despondence, the feeling of feeling left behind, the feeling that politicians and bureaucrats have lied to you. The Feeling that things will not change. Things will not change fast enough, that it won't matter.
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B
That no matter who sits in these seats, like, my life isn't changing, no matter who is sitting in these seats, or that the things that are happening, they're not interested.
- [08:19]
A
So how did you articulate that to your family? To go, I hear you, and I see that pain, and I'm promising you I can be a part of the change. How did you convince them of that?
- [08:28]
B
I think part of it was helping to remind them that everything that they exist in is actually a policy decision, whether they realize it or not. And I was literally. I could literally walk people through their day and to tell them how everything that they are experiencing actually was a very distinct decision by someone who's sitting in policy. The home that you are living in, that's a policy decision. The air you are breathing, it's a policy decision. The water you are drinking, the schools your kids are attending, the transportation assets you have or don't have, the way you are policed, these are all policy decisions. And so the idea that, well, these policy decisions don't really matter to me, and these people who sit in these seats don't matter. My argument is, tell me one thing that exists in your life that you think policy had nothing to do with. And the answer is, there is nothing.
- [09:17]
A
Let's zoom out a little bit. So there's obviously a big framing of the patriotism divide between liberals and conservatives. Where I fall on that spectrum is I'm not comfortable with the idea of how the idea of loving America gets conflated with loving the American government in everything that it has done. So I'll give you an example for me personally, Governor Moore. So you serve in Afghanistan? I'm an artist, and I'm an American citizen. I've been asked to go perform for the troops in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I said no. There's just something kind of chilling for me. My name is Hasan, Hasan Minhaj. I grew up Muslim, and just the idea, the image of some kid named Hasan or Mustafa or Ali, you know, getting blown to smithereens, it was too chilling for me to go perform there simultaneously. My mom has worked at the VA as a physician at the VA for over 20 years. I've also performed for troops when they come back. For me, the way I've been able to live with that decision is, for me, I think anybody who is a byproduct of the military or the military industrial complex deserves basic human dignity. And, you know, my mom is very proud of her job. She's helped a lot of people, and she still works there to this day. So do you see those things in conflict?
- [10:33]
B
For me, I mean, I actually look at both you and your mom as remarkable public servants. I think that the fact that your mom chose to serve the public by being able to work at the VA and heal the wounds that were, you know, of people who were injured or maimed or family members of those. And you said, and, you know, my public service is to make sure that I'm adding light and context to the world.
- [11:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. For me, you know, when I would go do those shows for the veterans that return that have been. Oftentimes a lot of them have been left behind by our healthcare system. For me, it was. I don't agree with the war and what happened, but I do see you as a human being. Like, I want to still help in any way that I can.
- [11:20]
B
And I tell you, and it was amazing for me, because when I deployed and I first joined the army when I was 17.
- [11:26]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, my mother had to sign the paperwork for me, But I joined the army for a couple of reasons. You know, one was, you know, they were going to help pay for college, and college is really expensive. Yeah. And I got. I got sent to military school when I was 13, and when I was getting ready to finish high school, it was both a love and admiration for this country. It was also for the fact that some of the most important people in my life up until that point, particularly some of the male role models in my life, the thing that a lot of them had in common was they wore the uniform of this country. Because of my experience in military school, and I was doing well in that environment, I was like, I feel like this is an environment where I do well.
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A
As someone who served in the military, do you believe the US Military has to exhibit that type of strength through the use of violence, to be patriotic and to protect the nation?
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B
I think that. And I think, particularly seeing combat firsthand.
- [12:23]
A
Yeah. I mean, you've lived it, so. Yeah. Did you at any point, did you feel it has to be done this way or this is the way the world is and I have to be a part of it.
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B
I think, especially now, after seeing it, combat should always be the last resort because it's really complicated. It's just. It's really difficult entering into any of these circumstances and things go according to plan. It's very difficult to get yourself and have countries engaged in combat and to think that this is going to be quick or Easy or painless or a time when the word victory can become very muddled.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah. That's been the hardest part for me. It's the way those symbols have been acted upon, specifically the act of violence that's been associated both abroad and domestically. That's where it gets tough for me. You know what I mean? I have a four year old son, so my son is four. He runs around the house and he's like, we do, we do, we do, we do. And he thinks police cars are fucking awesome. And like. Or like when a fighter jet flies over a football game, like he love it is objectively I'm like, yeah, that is really cool. Objectively like it doing the twisties.
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B
Correct.
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A
Great. Then you get a little bit older and you're like, whoa. Like we do, we do, we do Means something very different for some of the citizens.
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B
Pitch hits different in different of this country. Yeah.
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A
Or that fighter jet means something different for somebody who lives overseas. And by the way, I'm not here to reject all authority. In some ways I am kind of a little conservative. Like I'm down with authority when it comes to teachers, parents, elders, traditions, places of worship. That is where I fall a little bit more conservative, you know. But the police and military, they oftentimes get their authority from the threat of violence. And that's where it becomes chilling. I have a solution, though.
- [14:28]
B
Oh, I want to hear the solution.
- [14:29]
A
So every day at the India Pakistan border.
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B
Yep.
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A
I don't know if you've seen these videos on YouTube. They have this ceremony called the lowering of the flag. There are soldiers on both sides and they are just straight up all dressed like M. Bison from Street Fighter. They got the guns, the guns are twirling, they're high kicking and they're just doing this kind of breakdance peacock ritual at each other. So I'm all for military might, but why do we have to lock and load when we can pop and lock? Wes, I've seen videos of you. You're a phenomenal dancer. They have floated around the Internet. Why can't we do step up to the streets diplomacy.
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B
There are a lot of soldiers who I serve with who should not be popping at lock.
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A
But I'm saying. Yes, but I am saying is that I'm not against might being shown. Show your might. Flex. It's that part of it.
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B
And I, and I, you know, and I do think. And it is part of the reasons why I. When we have presidential elections in particular.
- [15:31]
A
Yeah.
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B
One of the things that gets me is, you know, people talk about we're electing a president of the United States. I actually think that the most important thing that we are electing every four years is not necessarily a president of the United States. It's a commander in chief. That is in many ways the greatest responsibility that that person who holds that office then has, that they are now the person who is the top of the chain of command of the most powerful military force that the world has ever seen. A person who literally at their disposal and at their whim, could make a decision that could eliminate humanity.
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A
Right.
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B
Literally, that kind of power.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right. When you're looking at the military. Military might. Having a sense of context of what that means, having a sense of context about what your decisions mean and that, frankly, that disconnect, oftentimes that exists between the way policies are made and the way policies are implemented.
- [16:27]
A
So it sounds like what you have. And I think we're both in agreement here. Tell me if we're in agreement here. It's okay to have patriotism and participate in this system with a healthy dose of skepticism.
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B
Oh, I carry a healthy dose of skepticism with me every day. And so we're. And I'm a governor. But you know what I tell people is that I. Skepticism and in some ways, cynicism. Right. Will always be my companion. Always. It'll just never be my captor. Right. It'll never control me. It'll never control my movements. It'll never control my thoughts. It'll never control the way I view the world or the way I interact with the world.
- [17:10]
A
This is all beautiful, Governor Moore. And I'm telling you, if I went down to the DNC right now and said to the voting public, it is okay to be a patriot, but you gotta have a little skepticism and cynicism. They would boo me off stage.
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B
Why?
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A
You were watching yesterday. The sign.
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B
Yes, the.
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A
We heart Joe. Yes, we heart Joe. Ain't trying to hear. Have some healthy skepticism from me.
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B
I think they need to. And I think they need to hear Governor, more.
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A
For real. For real. Do you want me to get on stage, Lectern? I'm killing it in the suit Peak lapel. Please go out and vote, but always have a little bit of doubt.
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B
I think that's American. And actually, I think that is patriotism. I think the danger we have right now is we have people who are almost. They think patriotism means blind following. Like, it's almost cultish what we're watching.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Where it's like someone says, where. You know, what about. Where are you on certain policy Positions. And they will sit there and look at either one person or one party and say, well, this is where I am, and all the issues. And I'm like, really? Everything that they say you believe in, everything that that party believes in, you believe in. And maybe it's because I don't come from a political background. Maybe it's because I don't have a party boss who's going to tell me what policy positions I should be taking.
- [18:31]
A
Yeah. Your life, your journey is incredible. Just look at your. If we looked at your LinkedIn resume. Some of you here in the crew don't know what Governor Moore has done. This is his resume. You were a Rhodes Scholar.
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B
All right?
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A
Y'all have no idea how hard that is. Okay? There's very few Rhodes. Rhodes Scholars. Your thesis was titled the Rise and Ramifications of Radical Islam in the Western Hemisphere. I'm just gonna leave that for your Bill Maher interview with Sam Harris. That's a whole thing. Then you went to work under Condoleezza Rice at the State Department in the midst of the war on terror. Then you will go from there and you work on Wall street to be an investment banker for Citigroup in 2007. Shout out to the bailouts. And now you're a Democratic governor.
- [19:15]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:17]
A
What?
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B
And honestly, when I first ran for governor, it wasn't like the party was applauding me, like. Like I was not the party's choice.
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A
Okay, but just break this down for me, because I want to understand. At what point were you in the break room with Dick Cheney and he's filling up his coffee mug. That's this human skull, and you're like, I shouldn't be here. What? Cause along the way, you worked with a lot of psychos.
- [19:40]
B
Oh, oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But I tell you. But when I think about the things that I want to do, I think that's what led me to this job. I looked at so many of the policies that were done not for my family, but to them. And I knew early that I wanted to try to find ways of being able to do things for the public because I wanted to. I wanted to fight for people like my mom, who I still to this day believe she deserved better. And for people like my dad, who died in front of me when I was three years old because he didn't get the healthcare he needed. And I was like, there's a marked unfairness in the way that societies continue to be built out. And so this issue of being able to give people a real opportunity to do something which I think is the most patriotic thing that we can ever do. This idea that, you know, this idea that social mobility should actually be real. The idea that no person is a king and no person is a pauper, that everybody has an opportunity to be able to make something of their life.
- [20:46]
A
Was there a moment, the give back moment? Because obviously I've had that in my climb. Not to brag. I'm doing Pizza Hut and Verizon commercials, and, you know, I'm getting my bag. But that at the same time, that pursuit in and of itself can be kind of empty if it's just about that. So was there. Was there an aha Moment for you?
- [21:05]
B
And I actually think it actually started to feel really empty for me. I mean, I was. I was working in finance, and I was, you know, to your point, I was getting the bag and all that kind of stuff.
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A
Oh, Christmas bonus.
- [21:14]
B
Ooh. It was amazing. Yeah, right? And it was. For me, it was just so deeply unfulfilling, and I was doing well. Like, I mean, my brain actually works in that way, really well. You know, my brain actually works quantitatively better than it does qualitatively. So the work, it wasn't just successful. It actually was kind of easy to me, and it was deeply unfulfilling. And around the time when I was working in finance, that's when I wrote the book the Other Westmore. And it was really an examination of these two kids. It was an examination of where I say how thin that line is between our life and someone else's life.
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A
Destiny, like, how quickly destiny can break.
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B
That's right. And that, I think, was kind of one of the first moments that I actually had a chance to. And I was forced to be actually truly introspective and truly think about my journey in a different type of way, truly understand my family. Because if I'm going to go through the process of understanding this man's family, I have to do the same thing with my own. If I want to understand his journey, I have to understand mine. And this idea of almost discovering that Wes Moore, the one who's currently still incarcerated, was the first time that I was forced to discover this one. And I think at that point, you just have a moment where your conscious is screaming at you so loud that you can't ignore it anymore, you can't suppress it, because every single day is a reminder. Every single day is a reminder of I'm getting new information and I'm processing new information, and you're still not doing anything with It. And so I think that was the point that I decided that I want to do something different. And I was working. I was, you know, running one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in this country. And I remember, you know, when I, when I, you know, when I was telling them about, you know, I think I want to run for governor. And I had people on my board who were like, you know, listen, you're already working on these issues. I told them to work on child poverty and this and that. They're like, you're already working on these issues. Why would you leave to go run for elected office? And I'm kind of like. And I thought about it. I was like, why do you think these issues exist in the first place? Like, these are policies. There's policies that are putting people in poverty and keeping them there. I could sit there and work in finance and say, I'll just, you know, take a portion of my bonus every year and do that. I could do that. I could sit there and say, I'm going to support this think tank who's going to put together a really important paper on this issue and hope they move. Or I could be the person who actually has the pen in my hand. I could be the person that actually introduces the budget.
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A
Right.
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B
I could be the person that actually.
- [23:53]
A
There'S going to be an active part of change.
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B
And because I feel like if we're not going to do that, then you will repeatedly just find yourself cleaning up the debris. And at some point, when those voices get loud enough, that just feels insufficient.
- [24:11]
A
You've obviously taken an affirmative position to be like, I'll be a part of the change. I'm going to try to engage with my state the way it is and how it is. Let's talk about your race for governor in 2022. All right. Your Republican opponent was Dan Cox.
- [24:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
Okay. Who attended Trump's rally on January 6th. Now, you took a very firm stance on the issues and said, no, I don't think we should hang. Mike Pence and Maryland voters agreed with you.
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B
Yeah.
- [24:41]
A
You're only the third black person elected governor in this country, and you ran against someone who nearly participated in an actual attempted lynching. So do you feel like, in one sense, who you are, Wes Moore, represent a sign of progress for black people, of how far you have come as a community?
- [25:04]
B
Yeah.
- [25:05]
A
But at the same time, do you also feel being the only the third elected black governor in this country, do you also see it as a sign of how far you have to go and how far this country has to go.
- [25:18]
B
It's wild because I know I am not the third African American to ever exist in the United States who is qualified to be the governor of the state. Sure. And so I think there is a. So when people say you're only the third African American ever elected governor and you're the only sitting black governor in the country, I don't feel a sense of pride in that, actually. I think there's a set. I think there's an indictment that comes with that that I think we have to be honest about. And, you know, I remember when Dan Cox won and, like, again, legit insurrectionist. And I remember people were telling me, they're like, wow, it's a good thing that he won the primary, so now it'll mean the race will be easier for you. And I said, there's nothing good about this. There's nothing good that a major party nominee is someone who literally helped to pay for buses for people to go down to the Capitol on January 6th to try to overthrow a government, and that I had to spend my time during the campaign trail arguing about whether or not Joe Biden was the legit President of the United States or not. Right. So there was something that was not just frustrating, but offensive about the fact that we didn't have to go through that process. But I remember specifically starting off on my Inauguration Day. And this goes back to understanding of understanding history. Right. Inauguration Day. I intentionally started that morning down at the Annapolis Docks. And so the Annapolis Docks are beautiful. You know, big waterfront area. It's also one of this country's earliest and largest slave ports for so many people, for so many African Americans. That was our entry point into this country. And I intentionally started Inauguration Day down there. We did a wreath laying, we said prayers. We gave prayers to the ancestors, and then we marched from the docks to the State House, which was actually built by the hands of enslaved people, as well as most statehouses around the country were. And I did it. And I remember immediately the attack started coming, and people were like, oh, my God, this guy's starting his inauguration with indoctrination.
- [27:25]
A
Oh, wow.
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B
It was immediately, man. And that's fucked up. Yeah. And I was like, it's not indoctrination, y'all. It's history.
- [27:34]
A
Right.
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B
And it's important for us to be able to grasp that and understand that why this journey has been so uneven. Why, yes, we're here to celebrate the fact that I became the first black governor in the history of my state. But why that should I. That shouldn't be a moment of celebration for the state. It actually should be a moment of reflection.
- [27:55]
A
Right.
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B
This was not just a victory for African Americans when I became the 63rd governor of the state of Maryland. It was actually a victory of all collections of society, every member of society who all actively played a role, to say that we need to have a state that is just and free and fair, and one where everybody has an opportunity to excel. Yet at the same time, I also hoped it would be a moment where the state could take a pause and think about what exactly this means, about the progress we've made, but also what was required in order to make that progress, and what is going to be required from all of us going forward as well.
- [28:35]
A
That's beautiful. Governor Westmore, thank you so much.