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- [00:00]
Hasan Minhaj
Harvey Weinstein is complaining about Rikers. That's right. The supervillain of the MeToo movement is upset because he got punched in the face by a fellow inmate. And Harvey is correct. Hitting is wrong. Even in prison. It is awful to be touched without consent. Anyways, I read about this story on Ground News, which is Today's sponsor and HMDK's favorite independent news platform. Ground News shows a breakdown of publications reporting on a story in which way they lean politically, whether it's right, left, or center. Now, it's not about eliminating bias. We all have biases. But Ground News helps you be a more conscientious consumer of the pageant of pain unfolding around us. Now, you may think, yeah, duh, CNN is slightly left. Fox is right. Why do I need this? Well, not everything is about America, folks. Ground News sources, articles from all over the world. For example, There are currently 97 articles talking about Weinstein and Rikers. And a lot of the publications are international. Now, I know the Globo in Brazil leans right and Le Monde in France leans left. And I'm keeping that in mind when I read their coverage. So go to groundnews.com husan to subscribe and get 40% off the unlimited access Vantage plan, which breaks down to just five bucks a month with my discount. Stay aware and go to groundnews.com Hasan today. Ben and Jerry's was created by Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield in 1978 and is one of the world's only fully goaded brands.
- [01:22]
Ben Cohen
We sure do make some of the best ice cream you ever tasted.
- [01:24]
Hasan Minhaj
Not only is their ice cream incredible, they have been extremely supportive of progressive causes like marriage equality, trans rights, indigenous rights, Palestinian rights, reparations, dismantling the prison industrial complex, and, fuck it, dismantling white supremacy. While we're at it, they literally embed these messages right into their products. How is this possible? I mean, I thought corporations and morality didn't mix. Did Ben and Jerry's hack capitalism with love? Well, that might depend on what happens next, because right now, Ben and Jerry's corporate parent, Magnum, is trying to silence them. So I'm just going to sum up what happened real quick. So, Ben and Jerry's were sold to Unilever in 2000, and then their agreement basically set up a firewall between Unilever and the Ben and Jerry's board so they could take whatever political position they wanted. But that changed starting in 2021, when Ben and Jerry's announced that it would end sales in the occupied West Bank. Unilever fought them on this and then fought even harder in 2024 as Ben and Jerry's tried to speak out about the genocide unfolding in Gaza. They even blocked a pro Palestinian flavor Ben and Jerry's wanted to create. So after some legal clashes, Unilever spun off its ice cream business into the Magnum Ice cre. But the underlying conflict didn't change. So Ben and Jerry's asked Magnum, please let us become an independently owned company so they could be free to say whatever they wanted. And Magnum was like, no. So Jerry Greenfield resigned in protest, and Ben Cohen has taken the fight public with the Free Ben and Jerry's campaign and petition@freebenandjerrys.com so that's the table stakes. And because of that, I sat down with Ben to talk about this whole drama. But my favorite part of this interview is, is the second half where we talk about a passion we both share. Dunking on the military industrial complex. We also talked about what he thinks about renaming the Department of Defense to the Department of War.
- [03:08]
Ben Cohen
Finally, something that Trump has said that's honest.
- [03:12]
Hasan Minhaj
His arrest for protesting Gaza at a Senate hearing.
- [03:14]
Ben Cohen
My country is giving weapons to Israel as a gift to kill all these people in Gaza.
- [03:24]
Hasan Minhaj
And I asked him, as one of the only OG Bernard brothers, if he thinks Bernie could have gone all the way in 2016.
- [03:30]
Ben Cohen
Absolutely. I have no doubt in my mind.
- [03:33]
Hasan Minhaj
And to be clear, you do not get free ice cream when you go to three Ben and Jerry's dot com. I went, and I'm very mad that
- [03:38]
Ben Cohen
I didn't get any.
- [03:39]
Hasan Minhaj
But Ben did bring free ice cream to this interview and lots of Oreos, which will make sense very soon.
- [03:44]
Ben Cohen
Hurry, right away. No delay. Stop. Make your daddy glad you have had
- [03:50]
Hasan Minhaj
such a bad maga. Has this famous tagline that's been very popular over the past few years. You go woke, you go broke. Anytime a Disney movie comes out that flops, they go, you go woke, you go broke. Are you broke?
- [04:05]
Ben Cohen
Not near as I can tell.
- [04:06]
Hasan Minhaj
When we talk about corporate values, what does that mean?
- [04:10]
Ben Cohen
Well, I mean, in terms of values, you know, the values I think about happen to coincide a lot with what Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount. You know, care for people that are oppressed. Welcome the stranger, Feed the hungry, feed the poor. Love thy neighbor. I mean, yeah, I'm into that. Seems good. I mean, and. And I think what's happened is that business has said, well, you know, that, that, you know, maybe that's for rape. Maybe that's when you're in church. But you know, we, we can't have those values in business. If we were going to have those values, business, we, we wouldn't be able to stay in business. We'd go broke. And it's just not freaking true. It's a lie. I mean, and Ben and Jerry's proved it. I mean, Ben and Jerry's has had these humanistic, caring values. I mean, the same values that, you know, that we want in anybody.
- [05:15]
Hasan Minhaj
Just, you're talking about basic virtue.
- [05:17]
Ben Cohen
That's all I'm talking about. Right. And, and the reality is that business is the most powerful force in our society. And if business wanted to, it could have those values and it would be a really beautiful society.
- [05:33]
Hasan Minhaj
What do you say to people that push back on this philosophical notion that the very idea of capitalism, of companies that have to deliver returns quarter to quarter for investors, just fundamentally bumps up against the virtues of integrity, honesty, empathy, care for the weak, the impoverished, the poor? What do you say to those people that say these are just oil and water? This is a paradox that you cannot resolve.
- [06:06]
Ben Cohen
We've heard that story. It's a lie. I mean, I understand that, you know, maybe, maybe it's easier to run a business where all you care about is the financial bottom line, how much money is left over at the end of the month or the year. But in terms of meaning and in terms of joy, in terms of doing that business, if you factor in social concerns into your day to day business activities, it's a much more meaningful, joyful experience. It's very motivating to employees and it's very motivating to customers. I mean, Ben and Jerry's, you know, taking these stands for justice ends up creating this simpatico relationship with our customers. That's the strongest bond that, that a company could ever make with their customers. I mean, usually people are buying products from corporations in spite of the values of the corporation. I mean, they're, they're kind of buying it because they need it, but they're kind of holding their nose because, you know, they don't really want to be supporting that, that corporation that cares only about one thing. And when they have a chance to buy a product from a corporation whose values they agree with, man, they are overjoyed and they just want to keep on buying that stuff.
- [07:42]
Hasan Minhaj
There was this lightning rod 2020 moment in the wake of George Floyd's murder. It was this very powerful moment. And in the years since that, there's been this huge pushback, the rollback of DEI again, this go woke, go broke kind of Talking point agenda. In the six years since that moment, have you now become more cynical to a lot of the language that some of these companies have used? Because it certainly has made me more cynical.
- [08:13]
Ben Cohen
Well, I tell you, I was. You know, I mean, of course, the death of the murder of George Floyd was a horrible and saddening thing, but when, when all those corporations started making these statements soon after that, that we're going to hire more non white people, we're going to. Banks were saying, we're going to make sure we loan to more non white people. We're going to make sure that our suppliers are not just white people. And, and they came up with, you know, actual numbers, objective numbers that you could hit. We're committing so much money to this. We're going to have so much of a percentage of our, our workforce diverse. I was really kind of overjoyed. I was feeling like, wow, they've. Corporations have finally gotten a conscience. They've. They finally are, are, have decided to use their power to improve the way life is conducted here, and especially for people that have been discriminated against and oppressed. And then Trump comes into power and he says, DEI bad. And all these guys just jettison all those programs.
- [09:47]
Hasan Minhaj
Has that type of political polarization made having a strong social stance harder? Because now it's. Everything's a political issue. We got a new Eminem. Well, who'd the Eminem vote for? It's like we're recasting Cinderella. All right, well, which party is Cinderella in? You know, do you find it to be difficult to navigate? You have certainly ran a successful business through every version of partisanship. Blue or red. Is this particular moment more polarized than ever, or has it always been that way?
- [10:26]
Ben Cohen
I, I don't. I mean, I, I think that the country is probably more polarized than ever. You know, a big reason being that, you know, every other president has sought to bring the country together, and the current president is seeking to divide it. So, you know, it's a rather influential office, and I think he's being quite successful in dividing the country. But in terms of Ben and Jerry's being able to be Ben and Jerry's, and Ben and Jerry's values, I mean, there's no doubt that the Magnum Corporation, I think, is kind of falling in line with, with, with what Trump wants.
- [11:17]
Hasan Minhaj
So back in 2000, Ben and Jerry's was bought by Unilever, and you did something unprecedented. You created a legal framework that essentially it guaranteed you and your independent board of directors to take whatever political stance you wanted. Is that true?
- [11:39]
Ben Cohen
Yes.
- [11:41]
Hasan Minhaj
How'd you do that?
- [11:43]
Ben Cohen
Well, so what happened was that Ben and Jerry's was a publicly held corporation at the time. Yeah, Unilever wanted to buy it. Jerry and I did not want it sold, but we didn't own controlling shares. And so against our wishes, and despite, you know, our efforts to keep it independent, the company, Unilever wanted to buy it. And. And there were other companies that. That also wanted to buy it. And Jerry and I were incredibly resistant. So Unilever says, well, why are you resistant? And we said, well, because we think that if the company is purchased by, you know, another company that doesn't have the same social values, that our social mission is going to get destroyed. And they said, well, let's just write it into the acquisition agreement that the social mission will live on. And, you know, we're trying to figure out, well, how do you write that in? Because the social mission needs to evolve as the country evolves, as the situation evolves. And the way that we ended up doing it was to form this independent board of directors for Ben and Jerry's that has legal authority in perpetuity over the social mission, over product specifications, over the quality of our ice cream, the use of the trademark, how the company is marketed.
- [13:17]
Hasan Minhaj
So it sounds like, hey, as long as the ice cream stays good, the money keeps coming in, you can hold whatever position you want. And, Ben, I gotta give it to you, man, you went hard in the paint for decades, standing 10 toes down on a lot of issues over the years. Ben and Jerry's supported Black Lives Matter, refugee rights, marriage equality, criminal justice reform, voting rights. But then you crossed the line. You said the P word, the Palestine word. You said it. And your corporate overlords were not too happy about that.
- [13:57]
Ben Cohen
Well, what happened?
- [13:58]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, what happened?
- [13:59]
Ben Cohen
You know, the. The board was feeling for, you know, years that having our ice cream sold in the occupied Palestinian territories in the west bank was. Went against the values of the company. You know, essentially supporting the mistreatment of people who lived in the occupied territories and that the occupation itself was illegal. And so, you know, there was a bunch of studies and work done on it. There were visits to the area by our people from the company. And eventually there was a decision that was where the board of Ben and Jerry's and the management of Ben and Jerry's and Unilever all agreed that Ben and Jerry's would pull its products out of the West Bank. And what happened? What I'm told happened is that when we announced that the. The Head of Israel called the head of Unilever and said, you know, if. If you don't make this right, if you don't get those products back here, we're going to kick out all the Unilever businesses. And they had, you know, like 20 different brands, 20 different types of products they were selling there. And so Unilever unilaterally went against the board of directors and sold the rights to Ben and Jerry's to an Israeli so that the ice cream would be available in the west bank, although only in Hebrew. And, you know, that was a major, you know, usurpation of the power of the board. And there was, you know, a bunch of negotiations that proceeded and they broke down and, and eventually the board had no choice but to sue Unilever, which is, you know, not your everyday thing that a, you know, a subsidiary of a corporation sues the cor. And so that, you know, after that point, Unilever started muzzling Ben and Jerry's on a whole range of issues. And, you know, when we, when we called, tried to call for a ceasefire when they ended up with this war in Gaza, they wouldn't allow us to do that. When we wanted to support the students that were protesting, they wouldn't allow that. And we wanted to support people's right to free speech and, and freedom of the press. You know, there was that woman who wrote a. An op ed in. In a college newspaper and she got kicked out of college for that or deported or something. We wanted to support her. And. And we were prevented from doing that. And that's illegal, you know, that the terms of the agreement.
- [17:02]
Hasan Minhaj
Is it true that they stopped you from celebrating Black History Month?
- [17:08]
Ben Cohen
Well, they. Yes, it is true. There was a post that we wanted to put up supporting Black History Month and they would not allow that. And this is the same company that I, I was so proud of the statement that they made after the death of George Floyd, which is, we must dismantle white supremacy. I mean, I felt like that was the. The str. That's the comp. You know, so our company made that statement, but I had nothing to do with it. And I was overjoyed because it was the company itself that took that position. And, and then, you know, there was this huge change and Unilever prevented us from putting up this post in support of Black History Month. It was pretty strange.
- [17:59]
Hasan Minhaj
But Elmo celebrates Black History Month.
- [18:03]
Ben Cohen
Exactly. It's kind of ridiculous. I think it was Trumpism. I mean, I think what. At the time, Trump was down on Black History Month. He wouldn't, you know, he wouldn't, you know, he, he's trying to get all the information about how the US Was involved in slavery. Yeah. Trying to get that information out of the museums, out of the, out of the college, out of the high school textbooks, public school textbooks. So that, that's what it was part of.
- [18:33]
Hasan Minhaj
Last year, you were arrested after interrupting an RFK Jr. Senate hearing to protest Israel's Gaza blockade. I'm going to show you the footage. Take me through what's going on and why you did it and how you feel. Let's take a look then.
- [18:49]
Ben Cohen
Why are you getting arrested? Move down the halls poor kids in Gaza by buying bombs and pays for it by kicking kids off Medicaid in the US Keep going down, keep going down the hallway. They need to let food into Gaza. They need to let food to starving kids.
- [19:07]
Hasan Minhaj
Now that you're not being dragged down the hallway of a government building in zip ties, what were you trying to tell the American people? What's going on here?
- [19:15]
Ben Cohen
Well, what was going on for me was that, you know, I'm sitting home, you know, reading these newspaper articles or, you know, whatever you read online, whatever the, however you get your news these days about how my country is giving weapons to Israel as a gift that are being used to kill all these people in, in Gaza. And, and then, and, you know, I mean, I'm keep on reading about that, and it's driving me a little crazy. And then. Well, it's driving me very crazy. And then I see this other article in the newspaper about how there's another outbreak of, of lead poisoning in, you know, I don't remember where it was. Maybe it was Milwaukee. And, you know, lead poisoning is an issue that drives me up a wall because it's very preventable. We know what causes it and we know how to fix it. And, you know, lead poisoning is, cannot be cured. It's a lifelong thing. A kid gets lead poisoning and their brain is affected for the rest of their lives. And instead of using our money to get rid of lead, we end up buying these bombs to kill more people. And so, you know, everybody has their breaking point. And I saw these things and I said, you know, I want to chain myself to the White House fence. And, you know, the people I work with said, well, you can't do that anymore. You know, the, the White House fence has been militarized, and you can't even get to the White House fence because they have a fence before it and they have guys with big machine guns walking in between. And they said, you know, we think you.
- [21:29]
Hasan Minhaj
You wanted to do a hunger protest. You were gonna. I mean, chain yourself to the fence and. Oh, yeah.
- [21:33]
Ben Cohen
And. And they said, well, but we think we can maybe get you into a hearing and. And you can make some kind of statement. And I said, you think that's really gonna be effective? And they said, yeah. And I had my doubts. And, you know, it ended up being kind of one of the more effective things I've. I've ever done.
- [21:55]
Hasan Minhaj
So all this activism and the positions you took in regards to Gaza, it obviously did not fly too well with Unilever. But eventually, Unilever spun off and sold you to another corporate daddy called Magnum. Right. How did that happen?
- [22:11]
Ben Cohen
Well, what they did was they spun off their entire ice cream division. They. They have an ice cream division that comprises about 100 brands of ice cream around the world. Here in the US It's Popsicle, Good Humor, Klondike, Breyers, Talenti, Yasso, and. And Ben and Jerry's. And Unilever decided that, you know, for one reason or another, they decided to get rid of their. Their whole ice cream operation. I think originally they were trying to sell it to another conglomerate or some private equity group, and they weren't able to do that, so they. They decided to spin it off into its own separate, publicly held corporation.
- [23:03]
Hasan Minhaj
So as soon as it gets sold to Magnum, this other conglomerate, Jerry resigns. I mean, you guys, you're Jordan and Pippin, baby. You're Magic and Kareem.
- [23:19]
Ben Cohen
Well, not quite. I would say, hey, if it was an eating contest, Ben, you two.
- [23:25]
Hasan Minhaj
You two were goaded. Don't ever. Don't ever hold yourself small, King.
- [23:30]
Ben Cohen
Okay, all right.
- [23:31]
Hasan Minhaj
You two were goaded. So he. He still. He steps down. What was that like? Why did Jerry step away? What was it specifically about Magnum and the pressure in regards to this issue that made it too much for him?
- [23:42]
Ben Cohen
Well, I want to be clear that Jerry and I have not split up. We're still the best of friends. And we. We both came to understand that there was no way that the social mission of Ben and Jerry's was going to survive under the ownership of the Magnum Corporation. And, you know, Jerry decided to resign in protest, and I decided to stay on and fight.
- [24:15]
Hasan Minhaj
I mean, you kept the fight going, and. And you've taken the fight both public and online with the website Freeben and Jerry's dot com.
- [24:25]
Ben Cohen
You've been there.
- [24:26]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Ben Cohen
Well, come again. Keep on coming. Well.
- [24:28]
Hasan Minhaj
Well, look, Ben, I have. I have a couple complaints.
- [24:32]
Ben Cohen
All Right.
- [24:32]
Hasan Minhaj
First of all, I went to the website and I thought I was going to get free Ben and Jerry's, and I didn't. It's a different type of Free Benning.
- [24:38]
Ben Cohen
It is a different type of.
- [24:40]
Hasan Minhaj
So, look, I think the cause is important. I think the clickbait is wrong because a lot of people are going to go to the website and they're going to think they're going to get free Ben and Jerry's. So we got to have another tab or sub link to get free Ben and Jerry's. But what is freeben and jerry's.com?
- [24:55]
Ben Cohen
what.
- [24:55]
Hasan Minhaj
What's the, what's the goal of the website?
- [24:57]
Ben Cohen
Well, so when Unilever announced, and this was like two years ago, that they wanted to spin off their whole ice cream division, Jerry and I went to them and said, hey, you know, there's been all these conflicts between Unilever and the board of Ben and Jerry's, and why don't you just separate out Ben and Jerry's so that it can be sold to socially conscious investors that actually support the mission. Yeah. And, you know, and have Ben and Jerry's be able to thrive and have the other businesses be able to. To thrive. And Unilever said, no, we're. We're not. We're not willing to do that.
- [25:42]
Hasan Minhaj
And
- [25:44]
Ben Cohen
so Jerry and I were very public about calling for socially conscious investors to. To make an offer for Ben and Jerry's, and, and some of them attempted to do that, but Unilever refused to engage with them. And then the company got split off into the Magnum Corporation.
- [26:07]
Hasan Minhaj
So is the goal for freeben and jerry's.com is the goals. If there's enough public momentum and movement behind this, is this an awareness play? Are you guys basically asking almost like the way musicians during those old record label contracts, are you asking, hey, let me go independent. I don't want to be a part of the old record label. Will you let me spin off and do our own thing?
- [26:30]
Ben Cohen
Yeah, that's. That's exactly what we're doing.
- [26:33]
Hasan Minhaj
And then how does the public come into play here?
- [26:36]
Ben Cohen
Well, if you don't own a.
- [26:38]
Hasan Minhaj
If your dad doesn't own a private
- [26:39]
Ben Cohen
equity company, the, the reality is that the fate of Ben and Jerry's is in the public's hands. If enough people get involved and they make their voice heard, they stand up, they participate in the actions that are on the website, they sign the letters, they sign the petitions, they. They bomb Magnum's social media with, you know, statements about freeing Ben and Jerry's Magnum is gonna end up having to, to give in and sell it. And, you know, and what's really happening from a, you know, financial investor point of view is that this brand that they've got, Ben and Jerry, is this very powerful brand which has been built on this values led business model. It's the very thing that Magnum is in the process of destroying. They're destroying that values led business model. They're therefore destroying the brand. They're ripping the heart out of, out of Ben and Jerry's and it'll become less valuable.
- [27:53]
Hasan Minhaj
Did you know the average employer has to sort through 250 resumes per job opening? I mean, that's insane. That would take so long. I mean, usually just be a problem for HR, but we don't have HR at 186k. So how are we going to get through all those resumes? That's like 250 resumes that I'm not going to even read. Well, if you're hiring, here's good news. You can now review all of these resumes and applications Faster thanks to ZipRecruiter. Com. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. And today you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Huss ZipRecruiters matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly. And with ZipRecruiter's new feature, qualified candidates who are very interested in your job, they show up at the top of your list. They should add that to the dating apps. And now you can also get a feel for an applicant's personality. Candidates can tell you in their own voice why they're interested in your job. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts. With ZipRecruiter. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com Hussin that is ziprecruiter.com Husn meet your match on ZipRecruiter. It's a digital world we live in, folks. Whether you're a creative, an entrepreneur, a small animal taxidermist, you need a solid Internet presence to succeed. Now, thankfully, this episode of HMDK is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all in one website platform that will help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or growing your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim a domain, showcase your offerings, grow your brand and get paid baby. One of the best parts of Squarespace is their cutting edge design. It's usually really expensive to build a sleek professional website. I've had to hire people to do this and they suck. But thanks to Squarespace's collection of design tools, anyone can get that beautiful tailored look. Squarespace has a library of professionally designed and award winning templates to choose from. They have intuitive drag and drop editing and high quality visual design effects so you can build your brand's perfect landing page, no experience required. For help with customization, you can turn to Blueprint AI, Squarespace's AI enhanced design partner. My favorite part of Squarespace is that they have integrated SEO SEO tools into Squarespace. All of their sites are optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions and an auto generated sitemap. That means you will show up more often on search engines and bring in more of your target audience. Perfect for attention mongers like me. Check out squarespace.com hussin for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use code Hasson to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Thank you Squarespace for being a sponsor. I want to turn to a passion that you and I share Dunking on the Military Industrial Complex I'm going to share a video that you recently Posted
- [30:34]
Ben Cohen
on your IG here's the Pentagon budget. 50 Oreos $1 trillion Yo Ben, the up in arms guy. I'm here to talk about the federal discretionary budget. Here's how much the federal government spends on education, renewable energy, child care, helping homeless people, world hunger. Why don't we just take some Oreos off this Pentagon stack. That's enough to fully fund schools that serve 8 million kids. Take another one off. That's enough to convert 1 million homes to solar energy. Take two off that provides universal pre K education. One Oreo, end homelessness. Two Oreos takes care of all the people that I don't have enough to eat. Take a look at this. China spends that much on their military. Russia that much. Iran, North Korea. Even after we take all those Oreos off, we still have more than enough to protect ourselves.
- [31:32]
Hasan Minhaj
I mean that's. That's quaint. Trump's already said he wants a $1.5 trillion budget.
- [31:38]
Ben Cohen
That that's the amazing thing.
- [31:40]
Hasan Minhaj
President Trump calling for a massive investment in America's defense. Writing on Truth Social quote For the good of our country, especially in these very troubled and dangerous times. Our military budget for the year 2027 should not be $1 trillion, but rather $1.5 trillion.
- [31:57]
Ben Cohen
What really amazes me about that is the callousness of that mentality that. I mean, first the country is saying, hey, we're broke. We ain't got no money. We're in debt. And then he's saying, well, I can figure out a way to squeeze out another 500 billion, and what I want to spend it on is the Department of War. And what. Where does that. I mean, what kind of mentality is that? I mean, you've got people that are starving around the world. You've got people that are dying of preventable diseases. You got people in our country that can't afford child care. You got people in our country who can't afford health care. And the first thing he thinks about is, let's build more weapons and kill more people.
- [32:50]
Hasan Minhaj
You seem to be up in arms. Pun intended. So we will go side stage and we will update that diagram. I want us to kick off a fun little game show that we do here on Hasamanhaj doesn't know. It's called know your Empire. You ready?
- [33:05]
Ben Cohen
All right, I'll try to get them right.
- [33:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Let's do it. How many military bases does the United States currently have in other countries?
- [33:13]
Ben Cohen
About 800 military bases around the world. That's. That's what the US has. Do you know how many the country who has the next highest number has?
- [33:25]
Hasan Minhaj
I have no idea.
- [33:27]
Ben Cohen
5. Well, clear. Clearly those bases are not to defend the United States.
- [33:32]
Hasan Minhaj
Well, what are they for?
- [33:34]
Ben Cohen
There to dominate the world, There to control the world through military force.
- [33:41]
Hasan Minhaj
How many countries does the United States currently have troops stationed in?
- [33:48]
Ben Cohen
What is it like? It's over 100, isn't it?
- [33:51]
Hasan Minhaj
Approximately 175. Now, Netflix is currently streaming in 190 countries, so that's almost all of Netflix's territories. How many countries is the United States in active armed conflict with?
- [34:09]
Ben Cohen
Well, at least 10. I think
- [34:14]
Hasan Minhaj
the answer right now is four to six. Now, I don't know if you're on signal with Pete Hegseth or Kash Patel, who's the head of the FBI, but it's four to six. From what we've guessed, Iran, Venezuela, Syria, Somalia, maybe Iraq. In Nigeria. Yeah, I just found out about Nigeria a month ago. I was like, we have beef with
- [34:37]
Ben Cohen
Nigeria and Niger too, I think. I mean, what do you count when you say armed conflict? What is that, including places that we bomb or drone assassinate, that kind of thing?
- [34:53]
Hasan Minhaj
Well, to me, a bomb or drone is kind of the same. So whether you kill brown people with the PlayStation controller, or there's a human doing it. I think it's the same. Right, but that's just me getting caught up.
- [35:04]
Ben Cohen
I think my number of 10 is better than your number of 4 to 6, but whatever.
- [35:08]
Hasan Minhaj
What do you think of the name change from the Department of Defense to now this thing called the Department of War?
- [35:15]
Ben Cohen
Finally, something that Trump has said that's honest. It is not the Department of Defense. It is the Department of War.
- [35:24]
Hasan Minhaj
Dude, I agree with.
- [35:25]
Ben Cohen
It's not set up to defend the
- [35:27]
Hasan Minhaj
US I'm actually pro this weird level of demented transparency.
- [35:31]
Ben Cohen
Yes.
- [35:32]
Hasan Minhaj
Just say it for what it is. Pop the whitehead you like when you have a zit. Just say what it is. The US recently started a new war with Iran. I don't know if you've heard. Now, Iran is part of the axis of evil. Now, as we know, evil is bad. Are Iran and Russia our enemies because they're more evil than our allies?
- [36:03]
Ben Cohen
Any country that doesn't do what we want them to do, that's an enemy. That is the official policy, if you read the actual US Policy, the national security posture and strategy, all that crap. Any country that develops economically or militarily must be considered to be an enemy. And we must do what we can to keep that company, that country, down. We need to sanction the country. We need to, you know, develop military plans to. To take over the company, the country. I mean, the US Is currently developing plans to have a war with China, which is so freaking absurd.
- [36:56]
Hasan Minhaj
So we're mad at them because not because they directly did anything bad to us, but because they're more successful.
- [37:04]
Ben Cohen
We. We don't like their form of government. We don't like the idea that they're economically successful. And we believe that it's a zero sum game, that we need to control the entire world. And, you know, China is getting to be powerful, and if we let them become too powerful, then we won't control the entire world. I mean, I think what China wants and what just about every country wants in the. In the, in the world, in the UN is a multipolar world where the power does not reside just in one country, but where countries are treated as equals. That was the idea of the United Nations. And, you know, the US has essentially thrown that out the window and said that we want a world where might makes right and we're going to be the mightiest country there is and we're going to call the shots and we don't want to cooperate with other nations.
- [38:13]
Hasan Minhaj
Well, so if the UN is calling for equality what is the purpose of NATO?
- [38:19]
Ben Cohen
The purpose of NATO was to protect the Western Europe from the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact was that group of the Soviet countries. And, you know, when the Soviet Union dissolved, there was no longer a need for the Warsaw Pact. It lost its purpose, and it should have been. NATO should have been disbanded at that time.
- [38:47]
Hasan Minhaj
But it still exists now, right?
- [38:49]
Ben Cohen
It does.
- [38:50]
Hasan Minhaj
And it's what, just a nuclear war tripwire? So if Russia just fucks around and invades any of those NATO countries, it's basically a green light to blow up the world,
- [39:07]
Ben Cohen
I guess. I. I mean, I. I think. I think the way those countries in Europe look at it is that there used to be the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had invaded them and taken them over, and they're concerned that Russia is, you know, is. Is going to try to do the same thing. But, you know, clearly it's not strong enough to do that. It. It's not capable of doing it. I. I don't think. I don't particularly think they. They want to do that. I mean, they've got their hands full trying to run their own country.
- [39:46]
Hasan Minhaj
I mean, this NATO and Russia thing, that issue got you in some particularly hot water, especially with liberals. Ben and Jerry's tweeted, we call on President Biden to de escalate tension and work for peace rather than prepare for war. I thought that was a pretty benign tweet. Yeah, I mean, we got a lot of, kind of. These are a lot of Elmo approved pieces of language. De escalate. Elmo tells us to de escalate tension in fights. De escalate tension. Great. Work for peace. That seems cool. Rather instead preparing for war. And liberals weren't happy with this tweet. They accused you of being an appeaser who loves Putin. How'd that make you feel?
- [40:44]
Ben Cohen
I'm. I'm not pro Putin. I'm not pro Trump. I'm pro not solving your problems through war. And you know that. How did it make me feel? You know, it's okay. People can accuse me of whatever they want to accuse me of. I mean, that. And it kind of goes with the territory. I mean, if you're gonna take a stand on something, other people are going to be opposed to it.
- [41:13]
Hasan Minhaj
So unless, based on this NATO agreement, unless we're gonna have a nuclear war with Russia, aren't we gonna eventually get to the point where we have to have some sort of settled agreement?
- [41:24]
Ben Cohen
I think so, yeah.
- [41:25]
Hasan Minhaj
So that's what the tweet was saying. I think you should have reworded the tweet. Here's what you should have said. Look, a bunch of people are gonna die and that's not good. And then after a bunch of people die, there ends up being a peace agreement. So let's just Skip over Act 1 and 2 and let's just get to the peace agreement.
- [41:50]
Ben Cohen
I'm with you. I'm part of an organization called the Eisenhower Media Network, which is a bunch of former mid to high level military officers. And at the very beginning of the war in Ukraine, we took out a full page ad in the New York Times and, and called for a ceasefire. So instead of having a ceasefire then, what we had was a war. That's what is it now, in its fourth year, that's killed and destroyed I don't know how many people and how many homes and villages and, and eventually there's going to be some negotiated peace.
- [42:38]
Hasan Minhaj
Let's talk about something else that gives me nightmares and prevents me from going to sleep at night. Nuclear weapons. You had another video that demonstrated the insanity of America's nuclear arsenal. Let's take a look.
- [42:53]
Ben Cohen
Let me show you something. Here's one BB that represents the nuclear bomb that we dropped on Hiroshima. And now what I'd like to do is demonstrate the size of our current nuclear arsenal. That was 50. 50,000 BBs. Enough to kill everybody on Earth.
- [43:21]
Hasan Minhaj
That's crazy. You know what's crazy, Ben? I saw that video first thing in the morning before I had to drop my kids off at school. Up my day, bro.
- [43:34]
Ben Cohen
Well, you can use that information to change it and make your day better.
- [43:41]
Hasan Minhaj
Okay, well, your boy had to take 5 milligrams of Xanax just to get through the day. But in all seriousness, how many dollars does the US military spend on nuclear weapons per minute?
- [43:54]
Ben Cohen
Isn't it something like 125,000?
- [43:58]
Hasan Minhaj
Yes, it's approximately a hundred thousand dollars.
- [44:00]
Ben Cohen
Yeah. And that's, and that's just nuclear weapons.
- [44:04]
Hasan Minhaj
What if instead of spending less on nuclear missiles, we spent more on defending ourself from nuclear missiles? Allow me to show you a video from Pete Hegseth. Big upping the Golden Dome initiative.
- [44:26]
Pete Hegseth
We need that support in Congress. And they're there. We appreciate their support and work in getting that one big beautiful bill to the President's desk for signature. Because with that signature came a massive $25 billion down payment on the Golden Dome for America. A revolutionary shield of space based weapons and sensors. A vigilant constellation of next generation sensors and satellites that will see every threat from every corner of the globe. Paired with a network of space based interceptors ready to neutralize any ballistic missile, any hypersonic weapon, any drone, long before threatening our homeland. That's how we establish complete and total orbital supremacy.
- [45:11]
Hasan Minhaj
What's your response to this whole orbital supremacy thing? I mean, it's not white supremacy, but this sounds pretty badass.
- [45:18]
Ben Cohen
It's, it impressed me as a, like a snake oil salesman. A medicine, a medicine show.
- [45:26]
Hasan Minhaj
What, what made you call bullshit on this? Because for me it was, it was the comic Sans Ms. Font at the bottom. That's the part that really got me. I can't take what we didn't do. The captioning there, that was the Department of Defense. Let me tell you something, dod, if you're watching this, the rest of the world is laughing at us. There's plenty of font options. You can't go with that. But what, what did you think of that?
- [45:54]
Ben Cohen
You know, it's a physical and mathematical impossibility. It can't be done.
- [46:00]
Hasan Minhaj
Why?
- [46:01]
Ben Cohen
You know, people talk about it as hitting a bullet with a bullet. You know, the number of interceptors that it would require is unrealistic. It's, it's a beautiful idea, it's a beautiful fantasy. But an invisible shield that will protect us from any and all threats, it just doesn't exist. And it never will exist because it's a physical impossibility. I mean, you know, this is just a replay of Star wars, not the George Lucas movie.
- [46:35]
Hasan Minhaj
You're talking about the pitch that Ronald Reagan made in the 1980s, right?
- [46:38]
Ben Cohen
He made the same pitch. I'm going to come up with an invisible shield that's going to protect us from any and all possible threats.
- [46:47]
Hasan Minhaj
When you saw Ronald Reagan make the Star wars pitch in the 80s, you weren't buying it.
- [46:53]
Ben Cohen
No, I wasn't. You know, I mean, you didn't see the video. If you.
- [46:58]
Hasan Minhaj
Austin, play Ben the video. You didn't see this.
- [47:01]
Ronald Reagan (archive footage)
US spy satellites would watch world below the first response. Space based kinetic energy weapons fire high speed projectiles from hypervelocity guns. Earth based nuclear powered X ray lasers fire their radioactive rays. Chemical lasers fire beams that burn through the shell of the onrushing missile. The surviving warheads enter the atmosphere sphere above the United States are attacked by laser equipped planes. Earth based lasers and ABM rockets eliminate the last warheads.
- [47:38]
Hasan Minhaj
Kinetic energy weapons, chemical lasers, particle beams. You can't beat that.
- [47:46]
Ben Cohen
It's. It's make believe and it's beautifully produced.
- [47:50]
Hasan Minhaj
That's what orbital supremacy looks like. It looks like Tron. And I'm saying that as someone who stars in Tron Ares, I'm in six scenes and it's streaming now on Disney. Take that, Putin. How do you make sense of the very real reality that no matter which political party is in power, defense spending year to year is always going up, it's not going down.
- [48:19]
Ben Cohen
It's not defense spending, it's war spending. And yes, you're, you're absolutely right. Both parties are equally to blame for, you know, this, you know, for, for what I think is destroying the soul and the spirit of America. You know, America is not about taking, taking care of people who need help. It's not about providing health care for people who need health care. It's not about providing food for people who need food. It's about killing huge numbers of people. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. I mean, the weapons that we have are designed to kill literally millions of people. And the mentality is that, well, and that's not enough. We need more. And, and, you know, I mean, you can kind of understand it, that it's gotten simplified to the extent that what people have come to understand, what they've been told is that if we spend more money on the military, we'll be safer. But it's not true. I mean, Trump, he doesn't think about, well, what weapons do we need actually to be safer. He thinks about, I'd like to have a trillion dollar military budget. And so he raises it to that level and then says, you guys figure out how to spend it, what to buy with it. And, and then he says, well, you know, a trillion, you know, that's pretty good, but I want the next one to be one and a half trillion. And I don't know what is, what it's going to pay for, but you guys figure it out. But the reality is that it makes us all less safe. It makes us all less secure because that money could be spent on things that would really make us more safe, more secure, things that would make us healthier, things that would allow us to have child care for our kids, things that would allow us to buy houses, things that would allow us to, you know, feed people that, that don't have enough to eat. You know, I mean, you walk around, you say, oh, there's such a homelessness problem. It's horrible. You know, nothing could be done about it. I mean, you could end homelessness for $40 billion a year, which is chicken feed compared to a trillion dollar Pentagon budget soon to be, well, if he
- [51:15]
Hasan Minhaj
gets his way, 1.5 trillion are Americans basically. Just not allowed to vote for decreasing the defense budget or as you call it, the war budget.
- [51:28]
Ben Cohen
I think that's true. You know, none of the major party candidates are talking about that because they're deathly afraid if they talk about reducing the Pentagon budget, their political opponent is going to call them weak on defense. And, and that's, you know, that's going to make it hard for them to get elected. That's a charge that, you know, the, the problem is that the, it's, it's kind of a complex issue and people are busy, you know, trying to fix the hole in the roof and, and pick the kids up from daycare and they don't have the ability to, to analyze this stuff. And so some guy says, well, we need to spend more money to be safer or else that guy's gonna come and kill us. I mean, I guess three years after
- [52:30]
Hasan Minhaj
Ben and Jerry started in 1981, Bernie Sanders became the mayor of Burlington, Vermont. You and Jerry scooped ice cream at the victory party. You were the original Bernie Bros. And have been huge supporters of Bernie Sanders throughout his entire career. What is it about Vermont that makes you care about your fellow American citizens?
- [52:59]
Ben Cohen
Yeah, it's an interesting question. I, I think that for one thing, Vermont is a very, very small state and people, people know each other. I mean, it's not like people are in the way. It's like people, you know, you like running into a person because it doesn't happen that often. And, and, and also there's, there's kind of a, a farm and rural mentality which is that you help your neighbor, that you, you know, I mean, there, there aren't that many people around. You see, you see someone in trouble, you help them out.
- [53:41]
Hasan Minhaj
Do you think?
- [53:41]
Ben Cohen
I mean, the other thing about Vermont is that the biggest things in Vermont are natural things, mountains, the lake, trees. Whereas, you know, you end up like in a city like here. And the biggest things are man made. So you have more of a sense of yourself as a human being not being the biggest thing, but being a small part of a, of a natural world.
- [54:13]
Hasan Minhaj
That's beautiful, man. Do you think that if the DNC had supported Bernie Sanders more in 2016, there was a possibility that he could have been president?
- [54:22]
Ben Cohen
Absolutely. I have no doubt in my mind. I mean, what was amazing to me was I was receiving emails from the Bernie campaign and I was receiving emails from the Trump campaign and they were very similar.
- [54:40]
Hasan Minhaj
You signed up for both listservs?
- [54:42]
Ben Cohen
Yeah, they were very similar. I mean, you know, we need to be saved from Those corporations that are screwing us, we need to be saved from the ultra wealthy that are screwing us. I'm for you, the little guy. You know, it's just that one of them was honest and the other one was just kind of pandering.
- [55:07]
Hasan Minhaj
Do you think the Democratic Party learned its lesson in 2016? 2020?
- [55:11]
Ben Cohen
No, 24? No, I've, I've kind of given up on the Democratic Party. You know, I think it's just calcified. I think, I think mostly it's, you know, there are some notable exceptions, but I think to a large extent it's a lot of old white men that are just caring too much about their own position and getting reelected and not trying to change the country in a way that, that, you know, kind of revives the spirit of America that,
- [56:06]
Hasan Minhaj
you
- [56:06]
Ben Cohen
know, they're not looking to, you know, I mean, they're fiddling around the edges. They're, they're not, they're not making any of the major changes in terms of how our economy is structured, how our, you know, how the whole federal budget is structured in order to prioritize the benefit of regular, everyday people as opposed to prioritizing the benefit of corporations and the ultra wealthy and weapons manufacturers.
- [56:40]
Hasan Minhaj
Listen, man, you've been fighting the good fight for 50 years. Are you hopeful or do you feel hopeless about the future?
- [56:48]
Ben Cohen
You know, I guess if you're continuing to fight, you must feel hopeful. You know, I mean, what, what choice do you have? You can, you know, you're confronted with injustice, you can either ignore it, you can complain about it, or you can try to do something about it. And, you know, I, I understand that. Certainly me, myself, I'm not going to be able to, to solve the problem, but there's a heck of a lot of other people that are also working on it. You're working on it. And, you know, Pete Seeger told me this story that he came, you know, he was walking along and he, he comes, he sees this playground off in the distance and he gets closer to it and he sees what's going on is that there's this giant seesaw and there's lots of people running around. And he gets closer and he sees that, you know, the seesaw is, you know, one side is down, there's this giant rock on it, and the other side is up and there's all these people with teaspoons running around, taking a teaspoon of sand from this big pile of sand, climbing up this ladder and dumping it in the bucket as the part of the seesaw. That's up. And, you know, he's watching this going on and, and he's noticing that there's holes in the bucket and that the sand is. Is running out. And so he. He pulls one of these guys aside and he says, stop, stop. You gotta. You gotta see what's going on here. And, you know, he gets the guy to stop. The guy is sweating, he wipes his head. And Pete says, don't you see there's holes in the bucket and the sand is running out and you're never going to get that thing to flip. And the guy says, oh, no, you don't understand. There's more of us with teaspoons all the time. And one of these days where there's going to be more coming in faster than it's running out, and all of a sudden the whole thing is going to flip. And so, you know, I'm a guy with a teaspoon and there's more of us. And you're.
- [59:09]
Hasan Minhaj
And you're racing up to fill up that bucket.
- [59:12]
Ben Cohen
Yeah, doing what I can. I mean, what do you. Otherwise, you just accept it, say, well, yeah, it's really up. We're killing gloves. Goes to people we could be feeding, we could be helping, we could be making the world a much better place, but we're not. And, well, I'm just going to go back home and, I don't know, smoke some dope.
- [59:35]
Hasan Minhaj
Ben, I appreciate you taking your spoon, filling it up with sand, climbing up that thing and filling up that goddamn bucket. And I hope we all help you fill up that bucket.
- [59:45]
Ben Cohen
It'd be great to be climbing up the ladder with you.
- [59:48]
Hasan Minhaj
Hey, man. Free Ben and Jerry's dot com.
- [59:50]
Ben Cohen
All right.
- [59:51]
Hasan Minhaj
Free Ben. Yo, Ben Cohen, ladies and gentlemen.
- [59:54]
Ben Cohen
All right, Hassan. Hassan. Hassan. Let's do.
- [59:58]
Hasan Minhaj
Let's do a Demons demonstration. Let's do a demi. Let's use some Oreos and do a demonstration.
- [60:01]
Ben Cohen
These gold ones on top, that's the half a trillion dollars that Trump wants to add to the Department of War budget. These little orange ones, that's the 150 billion that he's already added because he likes big numbers like that. You could take 11 of these Oreos. That is enough to provide Medicaid insurance for everybody in the country. Homeless people, you could. Could take care of them for two Oreos. Okay? For another two Oreos, Lead poisoning is irreversible. We could get rid of it for three Oreos. People that are literally starving to death, you could take care of all of them.
- [60:40]
Hasan Minhaj
For this many, you have a shit ton of Oreos.
- [60:43]
Ben Cohen
Here's how much China spends, Russia spends, Iran spends.
- [60:47]
Hasan Minhaj
Wait, they're just half of an Oreo?
- [60:49]
Ben Cohen
Yeah, 10 billion.
- [60:50]
Hasan Minhaj
Boy, what about Kim Jong Un?
- [60:51]
Ben Cohen
Oh yeah, they got a half Oreo too. The dude in the White House, he could use his Oreos to actually help people.
- [60:57]
Hasan Minhaj
This is great sponsored content for Oreo Raytheon. Have you subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet? You can listen completely ad free and get access to exclusive bonus content you won't hear anywhere else. Like my discussion with Malala on how therapy changed her life. Or my convo with Mel Robbins on how her let them theory applies to parenting. Tap subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to sign up on any app that's lemonadapremium.com.