Introducing: Pantsuit Politics

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know - "Introducing: Pantsuit Politics"

Hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers from 186k Films, "Pantsuit Politics" delves into pressing political issues with a blend of critical analysis and personal reflection. In the episode titled "Introducing: Pantsuit Politics," released on July 11, 2025, the hosts navigate through significant legislative developments, high-profile legal cases, natural disasters, and conclude with a discussion on country music.

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers outlining the day's agenda, which includes the passage of the Republican reconciliation bill, updates on the Jeffrey Epstein case, the catastrophic flooding in Central Texas, and a segment on country music.

Notable Quote:

• Sarah Stewart Holland [00:16]: "We have a full slate of topics to cover today, including the passage of the Republican reconciliation bill, the Department of Justice's announcements related to Jeffrey Epstein and the devastating flooding in Central Texas."

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2. Republican Reconciliation Bill: Analysis and Criticism

Overview: The hosts critically examine the newly passed Republican reconciliation bill, humorously referring to it as the "One Big Beautiful Bill" and the "Big Backward Act." They discuss its length (887 pages), perceived lack of forward-thinking measures, and the focus on perpetuating the 2017 tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

Key Points:

• The bill prioritizes making the 2017 tax cuts permanent, aligning with the Republican Party's long-standing focus on tax reductions for the affluent.
• Criticism of the bill's backward-looking nature and its insufficient addressing of contemporary issues like social welfare and climate change.
• The Freedom Caucus's intentions to push for more substantial measures in future legislative sessions.

Notable Quotes:

• Beth Silvers [01:13]: "The One Big Beautiful Bill, helpfully renamed the act, has passed and is now the law. So let's talk about it and what comes next."
• Beth Silvers [02:29]: "Take what we did the first time Trump was president and make it stick this time. That was what was most important to everybody."

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3. Department of Justice's Announcements on Jeffrey Epstein

Overview: Sarah and Beth delve into the ongoing developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case. They recount Epstein's history, his interactions with high-profile individuals, and the controversies surrounding his 2008 plea deal orchestrated by then-Prosecutor Alexander Acosta.

Key Points:

• Epstein's arrest in 2019 and subsequent death in prison, officially ruled as suicide.
• The lack of a publicly released incriminating client list despite extensive speculation and calls for mass arrests.
• The conviction of Ghislaine Maxwell and its implications.
• The Department of Justice's limited disclosure of Epstein's files and the public's disappointment over the minimal revelations.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Stewart Holland [16:56]: "There is no credible evidence that he blackmailed prominent individuals as a part of his actions."
• Beth Silvers [17:50]: "It's a horrifying story. It's awful. And the wake of tragedy just ripples out and out and out."

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4. Devastating Flooding in Central Texas: Impact and Personal Responses

Overview: The hosts shift focus to the tragic flooding in Central Texas, highlighting the loss of over 100 lives, including children at Camp Mystic. They express personal connections and the emotional toll of the disaster, emphasizing the urgent need for improved emergency preparedness.

Key Points:

• The human cost of the flooding, with specific mention of missing individuals and ongoing rescue efforts.
• Personal anecdotes from the hosts about their own children's involvement in summer camps and the emotional strain of the catastrophe.
• Critique of governmental response and the necessity for sustainable investment in disaster management to prevent future tragedies.
• The broader implications of climate change on disaster frequency and severity, advocating for robust government intervention.

Notable Quotes:

• Beth Silvers [28:14]: "There are still 10 reported missing, right? Is there still 10 missing from the camp?"
• Sarah Stewart Holland [39:32]: "I reject that in 2025, when we're talking about artificial general intelligence, that there's nothing we can do to prevent 27 children from being swept out of their beds in the middle of the night by a flood."

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5. Insights from Environmental Reporter Austin Gaffney

Overview: Beth and Sarah engage in an in-depth conversation with Austin Gaffney, an environmental reporter with the New York Times, who has been covering flooding in Eastern Kentucky. The discussion centers on the increasing frequency and severity of floods, community responses, and the challenges of rebuilding or relocating.

Key Points:

• Eastern Kentucky's geological vulnerabilities, including high mountains and narrow valleys, exacerbating flood risks.
• The state's initiative to build communities on higher ground using sites from mountaintop removal mining, balancing emotional ties to the land with practical safety measures.
• The financial and emotional complexities faced by residents in deciding whether to rebuild or relocate.
• The importance of federal investment in climate change adaptation, highlighting the limitations of local responses without adequate resources.

Notable Quotes:

• Austin Gaffney [57:05]: "Every community is going to be impacted by climate change in different ways."
• Beth Silvers [66:05]: "You could send that email today and say, how can I help? What do you need to be able to spend more time and attention and money on disaster preparedness in our community?"

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6. Country Music: A Lighthearted Closing

Overview: True to their format, Sarah and Beth conclude the episode with a discussion on country music, sharing their favorite 90s country songs and reflecting on how these songs resonate with personal experiences and emotions.

Key Points:

• Sarah shares her admiration for Trisha Yearwood and Pam Tillis, highlighting memorable lyrics and their personal significance.
• Beth reminisces about listening to country music during family road trips and the nostalgic connection to certain songs.
• The conversation underscores the therapeutic role of music in processing complex emotions and memories.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Stewart Holland [73:26]: "Trisha is the best."
• Beth Silvers [81:09]: "I just strip them of everything available in the song. Do you know what I mean?"

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Conclusion

In this episode, Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers offer a comprehensive exploration of significant political and social issues, grounded in personal insights and informed analysis. From critiquing legislative measures and unpacking high-profile legal cases to addressing environmental disasters and celebrating the enduring impact of country music, "Pantsuit Politics" delivers a multifaceted narrative that encourages listeners to engage thoughtfully with the world around them.

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Produced by Studio D Podcast Production, "Pantsuit Politics" is listener-supported, with special thanks to the show's executive producers and community contributors. For more discussions and updates, visit paintsuipoliticsshow.com or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Beth Silvers]

Lemonada.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

[Beth Silvers]

This is Beth Silvers. You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. We have a full slate of topics to cover today, including the passage of the Republican reconciliation bill, the Department of Justice's announcements related to Jeffrey Epstein and the devastating flooding in Central Texas. We'll end, as always, outside of politics by talking about music. We both love listening to country music in the summer, so we're gonna discuss some country music lyrics that have really stuck with us over the years.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

If you are new here, welcome. We are so glad to have you. We both live in different parts of Kentucky and have made this show for 10 years to have the kind of conversations about politics that we couldn't find anywhere else. We're asking questions, thinking and reading deeply and staying informed without being constantly anxious or depressed. A lot of wonderful people listen and talk with us through email and on our substack, and we'd love for you to be a part of that group. You can learn more about us by visiting paintsuitpoliticsshow.com or by subscribing, wherever you get your podcast.

[Beth Silvers]

The One Big Beautiful Bill, helpfully renamed the act, has passed and is now the law. So let's talk about it and what comes next.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I don't like the act. I think it sounds biblical.

[Beth Silvers]

Do you think that's what Schumer was going for?

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I think I prefer the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. I think it just, let's leave it sounding as dumb as humanly possible.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, everyone is coming up with their own version of what to call this, Right. And I've decided to call it in my mind the Big Backward act because it contains nothing forward looking. It's just recycling things that we've been talking about forever. It is biblical in size. It's 887 pages long. And I think the priorities are pretty clear. When you look at the timing of things, the thing that happens immediately and permanently is the 2017 tax cuts being made forever. And so that's what this was really about. Right? Take what we did the first time Trump was president and make it stick this time. That was what was most important to everybody.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Yeah, I. He says so many things. You know, he talks a lot.

[Beth Silvers]

He does a lot. Prolific, that one.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Prolific weaves on the, on the truth, social and I think articulates to people so many things that sound good. But really when you look at what he does, what he did in the first term and what he is doing this term, the tax cuts, the tax cuts to the richest Americans were and continue to be the top priority. And that has always been true of the Republican Party. If you want to talk about the party of Reagan and how we've left the party of Reagan behind, well, that's not really true because the through line from the party of Reagan to MAGA is tax cuts for the richest Americans.

[Beth Silvers]

So as I've been learning about this bill, I find myself thinking, I wish they would have just done this and stopped there. That's fine. If that is the truth of it. Just let that be the truth of it. Why are we doing all the rest of this when they could just do this and it wouldn't be great for the country? It certainly is bad for the debt and deficit. People like tax cuts, though, broadly speaking, I wish they would have just done this and stopped.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I think that they're always a little bit running from the idea that Republicans just care about the rich. That's the narrative they're always trying to get out from underneath or obscure. Because I do think that is the truth. Either it's through, you know, populist anger, it's through culture wars, it's through fear mongering. But that's just smoke and mirrors for the top priority, which is tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. But when you got to do all your legislating at once, because, I mean, I kind of think they're done, right? Everybody's just. I'm already reading about 2028 candidates for the Republican Party, 2026 midterms. So I guess I think we're just going to put a bow on it and say Congress is done.

[Beth Silvers]

I don't know, Sarah. The Freedom Caucus members really believe they're going to get another crack at reconciliation to get all the things they actually wanted and they negotiated for to secure their votes for this bill. They didn't get it in this bill, but it's coming the next time they've been promised.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Okay, okay. I wait with beta breath. Just like I'm still waiting on the 90 deals over 90 days for the tariff pause. So I'll just wait. Keep waiting for that.

[Beth Silvers]

Keep waiting. And peace worldwide. Worldwide peace.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

There are lots of things that we're waiting for. I'm still waiting.

[Beth Silvers]

So the main priority, the immediate permanent thing, is the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Later and temporarily, we're going to do some things for other people. So from 2026 to 2028, there will be deductions available for tips and for overtime income and a $6,000 deduction for seniors who make less than $75,000 a year because Trump had promised. One of the many things that he said on the campaign trail was that he was going to stop taxing Social Security income. So that I'm going to stop taxing Social Security income has translated to a temporary $6,000 deduction for some senior citizens. We're also going to have a temporary auto loan interest deduction. So there are the crumbs for the rest of us.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Can I suggest to everyone, particularly those seniors, that you save that money for when the Social Security runs out and you start taking 25% cuts on your benefits? Around 20, what, 33 is what they're saying now. So maybe just save all those deductions over the two years you're going to get them.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, that's kind of a theme here. We are going to pay less in taxes, a very few of us, for a very few years, and we're going to pay more for everything else.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Yep.

[Beth Silvers]

Because the government is going to continue to spend a lot of money, which typically does cause inflation, as we have learned painfully over the past few years. And the government is not going to be there to support us if we fall down in that inflationary environment. Now, those painful cuts are going to come sometime later, maybe when Democrats are in charge. I think there's this whole section of the bill that is just performance theater that even Republicans don't want to happen, but they want to say they're doing. So. All of the things that you've heard about terrible, painful cuts to Medicaid are slated to start in 2026 and some in 2028. We might start to feel the effects of those sooner because hospitals and clinics have to plan. And if they're looking at that income drying up, we may see hospital closures, we may see services discontinued. But a lot of this is designed to put Democrats in a bind if and when they take power again and. And not have Republicans be instantly blamed for the ways in which the government is bailing on people who are not the wealthiest Americans.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

So they have no way to pay for any of this. Even the Medicaid cuts that they were claiming they were going to use to pay for this are put off into the future. Way into the future. I find it unlikely that most of these harshest cuts will even come to fruition. This happens all, all the time. They put the payoff in the future and then it gets here and they go, jk, we don't want to do that either.

[Beth Silvers]

Yep.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

So they're not paying for any of this. They are funding the military and border enforcement. So they are not doing anything to shore up the problems we know are coming with Social Security. They're not doing anything to prioritize the crisis with healthc care cost. And in the middle of devastating natural disasters across the country, they're not doing anything to shore up the funding for fema. In fact, they're trying to phase it out and leave state and local communities on their own. On their own. All the states rights stuff is coming apparently with some actual muscle behind it to say like, oh no, no, we're leaving everything to you. Not just decisions about abortion rights, but the actual governance. The problem with that, of course, is that state and local governments can't print money. And they can't, they can bond out to a certain extent, but so many states have really strict restrictions as far as deficits and spending beyond their budgets. And so like, this is not an easy fix. This is not just they can do it now, that bill was going to come due for the federal government either way. You know, bonds aside, the spending that we're doing on natural disasters is out of control, just like the spending we're doing on health insurance is out of control. Just like I was reading that even the red and purple states that used to be paradises for home affordability are also going up 175%. Places like Houston, places like Dallas, the housing costs are shooting up there too. Do they care about any of this? Do they care about the actual problems presenting Americans in so many areas of their lives? Nope. No, they don't. Get the, get the rich, their tax cuts and let's make sure and buy some more drones. Good, good, good.

[Beth Silvers]

Yeah, that's what it is. I mean, the ideas in this bill are all backward looking. Cut taxes, spend more money on defense, $170 billion for border enforcement, own the libs by cutting everything related to clean energy or efficiency even.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

This is the part I don't.

[Beth Silvers]

And then, and then cut benefits. I mean that's, that's. They're all old ideas. And the very new future is here with all kinds of challenges, many of which you just listed. And there's nothing for the future. Nothing.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I thought they liked to make money. I thought we were all making money off solar. Don't people like to make money? And again, in this through line from Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump, I just finished Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson's book Abundance, they talk about how Reagan came in and decimated the solar industry. That was such a gift to China and Germany, which were like, okay, we'll do it. And they did. The technology and they did the manufacturing and we just got cut completely left behind. Our energy costs could be basically zero. We could be living in free energy now if Reagan hadn't put a dentist in charge of the Department of Energy. And what have we done? What have we done? He came in and did the same. We're, we're getting our feet on us. The industry's growing, it's making a lot of money. The projections of how much energy we could get from renewals, particularly solar, have just been left in the dust. We were exceeding them. And what do we do? Nah, nah, let's do, let's, let's. Why would we do that? Let's go back. Let's go back to oil and gas, which are costing us so much, not just in money, but in the cost of air pollution, water pollution, climate change. I just, it is, it is mind numbing, it is mind numbing these choices.

[Beth Silvers]

Just backward, backward, backward. Kamala Harris said, we're not going back. Trump said, yes, we are. And that's what this bill does. It just drags us backward. I don't know how dire the consequences are going to be for Medicaid and snap, because I don't know if Congress will actually let those things happen or if we can take some comfort in the fact that we have elections coming up next year and we could change some of this future. What I do know is that we are saddling future generations with problems that we have refused to deal with for years in service of ideas that are 40 years old at least. And that makes my head explode. That is such a waste, such a squandered opportunity. Holding on to things is the theme in this administration. And I think that they are starting to get tied up a little bit in the monster they've created and holding onto things because we have new Jeffrey Epstein news. We have never made an episode about Jeffrey Epstein. We talked about that a little bit in one of our flashbacks, that this is something a lot of people were paying more attention to than we were. And so for those of you who have not been in the details, I wanted to do just like a quick review of the Jeffrey Epstein situation so we know what we're talking about. Jeffrey Epstein was a math and physics teacher who was 16, charismatic that a parent at the Dalton School where he was teaching recruited him to Bear Stearns and his financial career was off partner at Bear Stearns in like four years. He created his own firm almost instantly is managing over a billion dollars in assets. And he built lots of houses and hosted lots of parties. And flew famous people around the world in his private jet. And in 2005, the parents of a 14 year old girl told Florida police that he had been molesting their daughter in his home. And the police went into his home and found photos of young girls everywhere. I was reading a quote this morning from one of those officers who said, this isn't. He said, she said, this is like 50, she's said. And he said he ended up making a deal with a prosecutor. The federal prosecutor on this case was Alexander Acosta, who was Trump's Secretary of Labor in his first administration from 2017 to 2019. And Acosta makes a deal with Epstein where He gets an 18 month prison sentence. He gets released to work in his office 12 hours a day, six days a week during that sentence. And he ended up being released on probation after 13 months. He kept all of his property and all of his assets. In 2022, it came out that Prince Andrew had paid millions of dollars to settle a lawsuit with a woman who said that connected to Epstein. She was forced to have sex with Prince Andrew when she was 17 years old. That woman died by suicide in April. Epstein was arrested again in 2019, in July. So New York prosecutors were reportedly seeking the forfeiture of his home in New York, where these types of crimes had been occurring. At his last court appearance, which was July 31 of 2019, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a trial until the next summer and that he was going to be in prison awaiting that trial for about a year. He died in his prison cell on August 10, and the reports were that he died by suicide the next year. In July 2020, his former girlfriend and longtime friend, Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested. A year later, a New York jury convicted her of sex trafficking minors, and she is in prison. She has a 20 year sentence. And around all of this, for years, there has been this whole almost industry of people saying there's more to this. There are high profile people swept up in this. There's a client list, and people like FBI Director Kash Patel and Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino have been part of the chorus of people saying there should be mass arrests and prosecutions of all the people who are involved in this. So then they get the power to look into this, and everybody's waiting. Okay? The truth is really going to come out. In February, the Department of justice released what it called the first phase of Epstein files. That was extremely disappointing to all the people who've been waiting. It included some materials obtained through searches of property, but really nothing else. But don't worry, Pam Bondi, the Attorney General says, I have got the files on my desk. President Trump has instructed me to just blow this thing open and I'm going to do it. Well, on Sunday night we learned that no, they're not.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, the Sunday night was not an accident because they didn't have what people wanted to hear, which is there is no incriminating client list, which does not surprise me. Jeffrey Epstein was not a pimp, he was just a partier. Right. Like, I don't know why he would have a client list. They weren't his clients, they were just his high profile friends and influencers he liked to surround himself with. There is no credible evidence that he blackmailed prominent individuals as a part of his actions. Again, he was rich. What would he be blackmailing them for is my question. Also, they did not uncover any evidence that he died any other way but by suicide. Which this is probably why you and I never did an episode on this. None of this is surprising to me. This is what I thought had happened. Now they are confirming this is in.

[Beth Silvers]

Fact what happened, that he was a predator and a lot of high profile people probably knew it. And that's awful. And that's it.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Yeah. And I mean, some of them participated. Prince Andrew did the settlement. Virginia Joffrey, the woman he settled with, died by suicide this year in April. There's plenty of heartbreak here, plenty of crimes. It doesn't have to be a mass conspiracy. The mass conspiracy is that for years, Jeffrey Epstein wasn't the only one who sexualized and slept with young girls. I just watched a Instagram from this account called excess of the 80s or 80s excess or something. I mean, Bill Wyman, the basis for the rolling stones, in 1984, started sleeping with a 14 year old, married her at like 19, divorced her at 21. Everybody knew it. Everybody knew that this dude and the Stones slept with like 13 and 14 year old girls. This was like, I just, it was not a conspiracy. It was a reality everyone understood to be true. Especially in high profile environments. Right. Fame is a predatory environment. And so it's like I just, it's like we had this weird hard turn where we did wake up and finally decide, hey, we shouldn't just sort of blindly accept super old guys sleeping with super young girls. I mean, celebrity culture is rife with this. Hell, Beyonce was 19 and Jay Z was 31. Would you let your 19 year old sleep with the 31 year old? I wouldn't. So I just Think, like, this is. This was so. It's like the conspiracy theory caught our refusal to accept that. Everybody accepted this for a really, really, really long time.

[Beth Silvers]

And it's gross and awful. And there very well may be people who have a range of culpability who have not been held to account for it. I don't know. I don't know. All I can know is what's in indictments and reports. I understand why people remain obsessed with this because he did groom young girls and pay them to recruit other young girls to be around him. It's a horrifying story. It's awful. And the wake of tragedy just ripples out and out and out. And it's hard to, like, comprehend how much pain was inflicted by this person who people like our sitting president said was just a terrific guy and so much fun to be with. And in 2002, Donald Trump said to New York magazine, it's even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. The open secret of this is galling and, like you said, pervasive. And there could be more to it. Senator Ron Wyden has been investigating payments that flowed to Epstein from a billionaire investor, and he says that he thinks there is substantial evidence that prominent people have a lot to hide about Jeffrey Epstein. So there. There could be more to this. I have no idea. I just know that a healthy politics cannot coexist with a true crime obsession in terms of who we think ought to run the government. And I think that's what Kash Patel is figuring out. Like, you don't get to make the turn from wildly speculating on social media about who has done what to having actual responsibility for who gets prosecuted in a court of law with evidence that will hold up. They're different things, and I'm really sad that so many people have been swept up in conflating them.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

There's something interesting here with regards to the fact that this entire timeline, maybe not his actual crimes, but the timeline since his suicide, took place in such a intensely online environment. It's interesting to contrast it with, like, JFK's assassination, many of the files of which that have also been released under Pam Bondi's leadership, including some that are showing, like, that some of the things people thought were true all along were that the CIA did have a relationship with Oswald and was sort of grooming some of some people around the Cuban Revolution. And also, it's like, it's not. It's not proving that the CIA assassinated Jfk like releasing all those files, it wasn't some bombshell. It was what my understanding had always been to be true, which is some people made the call that were like, this stuff will just fire people up. It doesn't actually lead to anything. It's just going to fire people up. I mean, that seems to be the call they made with the JFK files, right? Like there's no conspiracy, but there's enough here that people think there will be. So we're going to shut it down, we're just going to keep it secret. Which also led to its own sort of conspiracy fertile environment. But it's interesting because what I would describe as a quick burn, particularly in relationship to something like JFK around Epstein. It's almost like it just, it burned so hot and so fast it had to burn out. Like, sure, there will be people who will believe till the day they die. There's some like super secret client list. But it is interesting to watch the way it grew and grew and grew, swept up. People in power. Those people on the, at least partly on the energy of that burn got themselves into a position of power and are now saying it's the end. There's nothing here is sort of a fascinating contrast to the timeline around something like JFK or Martin Luther King or Malcolm X. Like I just. To me, what has been true has always been true. That when people can't make sense of a very complicated informational environment, they create conspiracy theories. And it's hard to think, well, the CIA was involved with Oswald, but doesn't mean they organize, ordered a hit on JFK or Jeffrey Epstein groomed these girls. It doesn't mean that it was a global conspiracy of elites. It's just awful. It's awful to accept that people knew about this and let it happen. And that also doesn't mean that there's this vast conspiracy. It's just the way people want to make sense of the world. I think this, I think it's always going to be to a certain subset of the population. A conspiracy theory offers the salve that they're looking for.

[Beth Silvers]

And honestly, I struggle with even talking about the Epstein stuff as conspiracy theories because it's not that old, because there's still just a lot we don't know. There are just a lot of unknowns. And some people have theories about what those unknowns could be, how they would fill in the blanks. And so people just have questions. It's weird that the Department of Justice has released this video of hours outside of Jeffrey Epstein's cell. That is still missing a minute. And they don't have an explanation of why. And it's just. It's weird. And people are gonna tell stories and fill in blanks because we're people and we have imaginations, and that's the kind of thing that we do. There's just a lot about this that I kind of have to sit back from and say, I don't know. But I can't make trying to find out my whole personality because I don't have the resources to do this. And, you know, I just have to go with the officials, and sometimes officials let us down. I think this deal that Alex Acosta made was terrible. I think it was a terrible deal, you know, So, I mean, there are just pieces here where you have to say, there have been some government failures around this too. I think that because players who are central to the MAGA movement have staked such a claim around this and have speculated with such intensity about what does exist and what should be done about it, that it is going to be a real problem for them. I don't think that a lot of their supporters are going to say, well, I guess this is the. I guess there's parts of this that we'll just never understand because they have incrementally trained people to not accept that explanation. And I think that that will hurt them in the long run. Okay, we are going to take a quick break and come back and talk about something that has occupied at least 90% of my brain space since Friday, and that is the flooding in Central Texas.

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[Beth Silvers]

As we are recording, more than 100 deaths have been reported from the flooding in central Texas that happened on July 4, including 27 children and counselors at Camp mystic in Hunt, Texas.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

And There are still 10 reported missing, right? Is there still 10 missing from the camp?

[Beth Silvers]

That's my understanding that they're still searching. Sarah. I've tried to like avoid listening to stories about this and then when I start I can't seem to stop because it's just so vivid. Like it's just, it's just easy to understand what happened here and impossible at the same time. And you have these kids at summer camp and we're all in the mix of sending our kids to various summer camps. And it's not that I feel fear for my kids in a different way. It's just that that empathy is so present. You can just so quickly put yourself in the shoes of a parent who is waiting and wondering and then grieving in such an intense way.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, my 10 year old son is in summer camp in Texas right now. Felix is at Camp Sweeney in northern Texas. So yeah, this sits particularly close to home. My older two are Camp er near you in Northern Kentucky. I think our minds feel so busy around this story because there's so much to process. There is the quotidian nature of children at camp, sort of everyday, average. I mean this camp itself stretches back almost 100 years. A through line, through so much change in America with this summer camp experience. I mean when Nicholas and Griffin were taking Felix to camp in Texas, they listened to notes on camp, the famous this American Life episode. And we realized it came out in 1998. The children they're profiling in that episode are like my age. Camp is so special. It's just really, really special. And so you're holding that, you're holding these children in this everyday, almost eternal kind of experience. This really, really precious thing beside this, this extraordinary event and the, in the levels of, you know, sort of once in a lifetime that it was a holiday weekend, that it was in the evening that you had this, this massive amount of water come down 26ft. The river rose in 45 minutes. So you're putting together this you know, natural disaster in combination with this beautiful thing that has existed for so long that feels sort of removed from time, right? So like this sort of outside of our everyday lives thing and this other outside of our everyday lives disaster and trying to hold them both. When you're talking about seven and eight and nine year old children, it's just. That's the hardest. It's the absolute hardest.

[Beth Silvers]

I dropped off kids from my church at camp yesterday. They were all middle school age and it was about a three and a half hour drive down to camp and I'm driving our church van and they're in the back and they start off pretty quiet and then on their phones and it was like as we got physically closer to camp, they transformed as kids, the closer we got, the more they put the phone down and talked to each other and talked about camp and who they hoped to see and what they hoped to do. And then when they got out of the van, they dropped their stuff so fast in their cabins and ran to this open space where kids had congregated to play four square and to hug each other, to say hi to people that they haven't seen since the last time they were at camp together. And it was like watching them age in reverse and just get to be unburdened, you know, playful and silly and delighted by the simplest things. This, this camp could not be any more throwback. You know, there is nothing fancy about it. They're just happy to be out in this beautiful space away from everything. And I cried for most of my drive back just thinking about that one. Like what a gift it is to be able to give kids this kind of space. And why is that so hard? Why does it have to be so contained in the camp experience? But then also just thinking about this community where it's an extraordinary event, except that it's not that flooding is well understood. And flooding, for people who live near rivers, is a part of life that you hold with a lot of different emotions. On Saturday, Chad and I went to this little village that's right on the Ohio river and they were having a cardboard boat regatta, which is a delightful thing to watch. But we were, we were standing above the flood wall with the river way, way, way below us, watching the cardboard boat regatta. And as they were making announcements, there was this moment of just real gratitude because just weeks ago the river was way above that flood wall and this little village had been flooded. And so I think that's part of where your brain starts to like, grab for whys. Who knew what and when and what could have been done to prevent this? And then you sort of rush that away because it seems, I don't know, too soon, and it's too much to hold alongside all these other things. But then you have to ask those questions because it will happen again. It is not so uncommon that you can say, well, it'll probably be another hundred years before we experience something like this. It won't. And so what can we learn from it and what can we do and how can we try to hold all these things together? It's. It is taxing for everybody.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

My town is on the banks of the Ohio River. The convergence of the Mississippi and the Ohio is nearby. The story of my town is one of flooding. In 1937, we had an enormous flood. I mean, you can go into buildings downtown, some of which retain sort of the water markings. There's everywhere you can go. And I tell my kids, like, look, this is where the water went before we had the flood wall. This is how high it was downtown. This is how far inland it went. To respect how powerful that river is and how quickly things can change. This is something I've learned from my husband, who was a lifeguard for several years and just has an enormous respect for the power of water. And I do not think that it is politicizing tragedy to demand good governance. You know, through our travels, probably in part because of Camp Sweeney, and for a lot of reasons, I've really come to love the great state of Texas. Over the last few years. It went from sort of a political characterization in my mind to a living, breathing place I really enjoy visiting, even in summer. I was there in Houston last weekend. But part of Texas's political reality, which is their governing reality, is this sort of hands off. That's how they got into a mess with their electric grid during a winter when many, many people lost their lives. And it seems to be another hard reality of this tragedy. I reject. I reject that in 2025, when we're talking about artificial general intelligence, that there's nothing we can do to prevent 27 children from being swept out of their beds in the middle of the night by a flood. I reject that. Do I think that there is a reality in which we protect everyone from natural disasters? Of course not. But there could have been more done. More lives, more young lives could have been saved. And when we approach government this way, as if something that it is only a problem, it is never worth investing in. It is only something to be limited and restricted or, of course, used when it's of the utmost priority around our particular chosen culture war. These are the people who suffer. These are the people who suffer. I have been in meetings with local governments when we have talked about emergency management systems and nobody wants to exhibit the leadership. To say it's, of course it's expensive, but we will explain it, we will take the heat because lives are on the line. Nobody wants to do it, but it has to be done because that's what government is about. This is why you need government, you need data, you need warning, you need investment, or else you trade off short term pain for what, long term savings. No, no, no, it's unacceptable.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, it's trading off short term pain for long term dysfunction on so many levels. I mean, it's ultimately more expensive to not do disaster preparedness, to not do emergency management well, to not invest in these ideas. And look, I think that I, I am sympathetic to arguments about what government can do well and what it can't. This is a government role. This is the most fundamental role of government at every level. And you need every level. A county like the one I grew up in that has been devastated by flooding this year because it sits on the Green river, cannot have in it the resources and expertise to manage that kind of event alone. The state of Kentucky, which has an abundance of water everywhere, it makes it a beautiful place to live, cannot have the resources and expertise to do this alone. This is again why I'm so frustrated with the way that the administration is approaching leadership. And not just this administration. I mean, again, this is, this is an old problem. No one wants to prioritize preparing for what could go wrong. But if you just take the current situation, you have people who want to take money away from the meteorologists, who want to phase out FEMA in favor of states where this kind of expertise exists, maybe in pockets, but not spread across the entirety of the country. And we do not have states that are immune from some form of disaster. And then you go, okay, well, maybe philanthropy can handle it. Sure. But a lot of philanthropy depends on federal grant funding in some form. Okay, maybe universities can handle it. Again, those are research grants. Like somewhere we all have to contribute our money to a place that then says, here's how we grow the resources and expertise that we need to keep our communities safe. Whether those communities are filled with a couple million people or less than 10,000, some kind of nature will come to the door in a way that they deserve to be not isolated from, but to know that someone's thought about it and has a plan for it and they have some chance of surviving it. So it is painful to go back through county commission meetings in Kerr, in Kerr County, Texas, and ask, why did we say the sirens were too expensive? That sucks. It's a horrible exercise. It is a necessary exercise because Kerr county is so representative of so much of America. And we've got to figure out how to make preparing for these events a priority, especially as we see a clear trajectory of the frequency and severity of weather events.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

This does feel like a place where we are again going through a very painful transition where we have to decide this is the role of government and we are going to support people who run. Not on trying to escape blame, but taking responsibility. I'm encouraged by the lieutenant governor of Texas saying, yeah, we should have done something, and now we will. We have to hold our political leaders to account. We have to say, this is what we require from leadership and we have to pay for it. We have to pay more in taxes. It's expensive. These emergency management systems are expensive. They are going to take tax increases. I just. So is back to our first conversation. If we all want to keep getting Social Security, we're going to have to pay more in taxes. Like, I just. If everything's more expensive, everything's more expensive, including for the government. And I just don't know. I understand that when everything's more expensive, the last thing we want to do is pay more in taxes. But the government's paying for everything too, and that is also more expensive. We're not going back to before COVID None of the prices are going back to there. That's just not going to happen. And I'm just so frustrated with the ways in which this stuff gets obfuscated and hidden and forgotten. And I am sympathetic, sympathetic to the idea that like, oh my God, we haven't even found everybody yet and we have to start talking about this. But the unfortunate reality is we all have really short attention spans and the next disaster will move on. It's hard to keep sustained attention on these things. Not for the local communities. But you want to take your moment in the national spotlight to aim that energy where you want it to go. And I don't think aiming it towards good government is a. Is a waste. I really, really don't. Because the, the, the, the sacrifices of the first responder and the way the communities are going to just be like laser focused on rescuing these people. That's nothing NBC News can help with. You know what I mean? The New York Times can't help with that. They're doing that. Everybody's doing the best they can with what is there. Like everyone's showing up. They have enormous resources. The search and the search and rescue operations, like it's so important. But I'm not worried about them not having the resources they need for that. People show up and show out in those moments. What can the New York Times do? They can start asking some hard questions about these. They can dig through the commissioner reports and they are well suited and well trained for it. So let them do it. That's not a politicization. I really don't believe that. That's the job of good journalists. And I'm glad they're doing it.

[Beth Silvers]

Look, if I were a mayor or a county commissioner somewhere, I would be pouring through this too and thinking about my own county or my own town. And where have we considered things that we need to take a second look at? Where have we considered and rejected proposals that we need to go back and look at? What problems have we never discussed? What have we not anticipated and how do we prepare for it? I think this situation highlights the best of us in that. God, the sacrifices that people have made for to care for each other during and in the wake of this are incredible. And so you can't look at this county and paint it as full of a bunch of hardened people who don't care about each other. That's clearly not what it is. It's an incredibly loving community where people are coming together in a massive way. Okay, so then what do we learn about preparation and decisions that are made in advance, an allocation of resource and opportunity cost in our politics? How many people who could be doing detailed, tedious work around emergency management and disasters? How many of those people have lost election or been dissuaded from running at all because they know that if they run for a seat on the county commission, they're going to get more questions about abortion. They're going to get more questions about Jeffrey Epstein, about these culture war issues that are distractions from the things that we actually want people to take responsibility around. In these local elections, there's a place for national issues. It's when people are running for national office. But true local government has suffered tremendously because we treat everyone as though they're running for president. And I hope that something we can take from this is that we really need people at every level who will focus on things that are never going to be discussed on a cable news panel, but that matter tremendously.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

But that's the thing though. They are being discussed on A cable news panel right now. So now is the time to focus and ask these questions in your community. We have a really bad problem as human beings that when something terrible like this happens, we either say, that could never happen to me, or, this is why this could never happen to me. We want to find the reasons why this tragedy doesn't apply to us. That's a bad political instinct. You don't have to be a mayor or a city commissioner to start asking those questions. Fire up your email right now and ask your own commissioner or mayor. Hold them to account right now. Where are we on emergency preparedness? I know those aren't fun headlines to read in a local newspaper, but, like, those are the questions. Instead of, you know, sharing a million donation posts. We all know how to give money to the Red Cross. Like, do this instead. Focus your grief for this community into making your own better so you're not the next one on the COVID of the New York Times. Like, that's what we should do. That's how we should honor the people who have died by saying, okay, where can I look closely? Where can I hold my officials to account? Where can I say, what are you doing around emergency preparedness? I'm willing to pay more for this. What do we need to do? I mean, I think that that is worthwhile. That is worthwhile instead of, you know, what I knew was inevitable. I knew it. I told my husband. He was like, you're crazy. People aren't gonna do that. And then he was like, oh, my God, I'm already seeing it. Which is, this is why I don't send my kids to camp. What a shitty response. What a shitty response. I. I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. People love to justify their anxieties, and it was. I saw it almost immediately. See, this is why. No, no, because what are you saying about the parents who sent their children to Camp Mystic? Come on. What? You're a smarter, better parent than they were. Get it together, Internet. Get it together.

[Beth Silvers]

And, you know, we don't have to take an adversarial posture about this with our local officials. You could send that email today and say, how can I help? What do you need to be able to spend more time and attention and money on disaster preparedness in our community? How can I get involved with this? Where should I go looking to better understand what our plans are? We want people to want to serve in these positions. We want people who are willing to be thoughtful and thorough to want to do these jobs. And so we don't have to go in hostile. But I think you're absolutely right that there is a limit to what making a donation will do. The, the broader impact can be in elevating this issue permanently. I think a lot about Sandy Hook promise in the way a group of people had this unspeakable tragedy unfold, just horrific. And they have gone about the extremely long term work of attacking that problem, of. That problem of gun violence in a huge variety of ways. Advocacy for legislation, but also hotlines for schools and education and outreach. And they have said, we don't want this ever again in our community or anywhere else. And we're willing to invest in that for the very, very long term because it is a, it is a long term problem. And that's the thing with disasters. There's not going to be a moment of like, well, we fixed it. We don't have to worry about weather anymore. It is a, it is a reality that we have to live with, but we have better ways to live with it all the time if we will stay on it.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I have sort of re. Engaged in my own community in a couple of ways recently. And what I've realized, and I guess I knew this if I'd really forced myself to articulate it, you know, we all say like, the squeaky will gets the grease. It's not just that. It's not just that the people who are the loudest around issues like abortion get so much political energy and ways to apply it. It's that people in leadership use silence as a form of power too. And so when they get in a meeting for emergency management and they say, well, people are loudest about cutting taxes and no one's knocking down my door about wanting sirens, they use that. They use the silence as a form of triangulation. Well, no one's complaining about it. No one's at the meetings. I haven't heard anybody say anything about this. And so I think that reality is something I'm. I'm really trying to keep front and center. Not because we have to be adversarial, but because we have to be clear. This is what I want. The fact that I don't have it as a problem. Like, I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm really trying to encourage people to like, just open up the lines of communication with the leaders in your community. Because that silence becomes a form of complacency on all of our parts. And I just see a lot of complacency in a lot of different areas of my community. And My institutions. I think it is absolutely a part of even the problems at the federal level. And I don't want, you know, these flashes of tragedy to just fade. How many of these once in a lifetime weather events do we have to have before we realize we're going to have to take a different approach? We're going to have to demand a different approach. Things are different. The old ways don't work anymore. And I'm just realizing that that sort of just asking the question, just advocating, just making your voice heard is a real act. It really matters. It really matters because in the void, the silence becomes its own form of advocacy or its own justification for complacency.

[Beth Silvers]

So we wanted to think about the long term work around flooding. And a few months ago we had a conversation that we thought would help us do that. Today we spoke with Austin Gaffney, who is an environmental reporter. When we were talking with her, she was a New York Times fellow on the Climate desk and she had been reporting on flooding in Eastern Kentucky and specifically on trying to build back in communities that had been devastated by floods. This conversation gets to things like why do you live there if you know that river floods, which is another shitty thing people say after something like this happens. So we hope that this conversation with Austin gives us some inspiration for that work of reaching out in our communities, gives us some specific things to talk about and ask about, and reminds all of us that our places matter to us and our places are endangered in a number of ways and can be endangered at a moment's notice. And they are still our places and we need to put some care into the people who inhabit them and dig in for the long term work of that resilience. Austin, thank you so much for joining us on Pantsuit Politics. I have been really interested in the reporting that you've been doing in Eastern Kentucky, both because we both live in Kentucky and care very much about this place and our people, but also because of the way it surfaces. So many issues that are going to be increasingly relevant. So will you start for people who don't know about that flooding, just talking about what's happened and the types of questions that you're asking about it.

[D]

Sure. Thanks for having me. I'm from Kentucky and I have been reporting on floods in Kentucky since 2021. Obviously we've always had flooding in the state of Kentucky and especially in eastern Kentucky where we have high mountains and narrow valleys. River flooding has, has always occurred. But what we're noticing is that these floods are getting more common and more Severe when they happen. So, for example, people who are listening will probably know about floods that happened in 2021 during the late winter and then followed the next summer. In 2022, there was major flooding in July that killed 45 people, destroyed hundreds of homes and damaged thousands. So. So I've been following this basically since then. And I have recently joined the New York Times where I continued to follow flooding in Kentucky and recently told a story that was basically a follow up to what the state was trying to do in response to the 2022 floods.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

And a big part of that story is the decision point facing so many Appalachian communities about whether to rebuild or relocate. I mean, when you said flooding in Kentucky, I live in Paducah on the. All the way on the other end of the state. And one of the predominant features of Paducah is a flood wall, because we had a catastrophic flood and we decided to build this giant flood wall, which we use a lot to prevent just destruction of property, loss of life. So it's interesting to watch communities work through this decision of are we going to build things that will help protect us or do we need to build a new location? So what are you hearing from people in eastern Kentucky as they confront this decision point?

[D]

I would say obviously it's not a universal response. Right. Like different people have. Have different answers for what they hope their communities do and what personal choices that they would make. I would say a difference between, you know, obviously like Paducah and like Hazard.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Is so many differences, so many different. The only thing they share is being in the same state geographically.

[D]

The size of the river too. Right. Like Paducah can, can sort of like build this giant flood wall to kind of keep the Ohio out. I'm not sure every community has that option. Right. So they're looking at ways to prevent riverine stream flooding. That is maybe not these like traditional ways that we might consider to prevent floods, like, like flood walls, for example. Just a great example. So instead, one of the solutions that the state has pitched is building communities on higher ground. And what that looks like in eastern Kentucky is these sites that have been left over from mountaintop removal, coal mining or strip mining, where you level off the top of a mountain and essentially create like what is more or less a flat plain and building neighborhoods on top of those flat plains to keep them outside of the increasingly expanding floodplain below.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, I mean, that's the biggest difference is we don't. We have lots more flat area. And I think that's what it's one Thing. If you're talking about a body of water, the Ohio, that everybody respects and knows to like, you know, be kind of in awe of its size. It's another thing in eastern Kentucky when it's just. It could be a creek you've never looked twice at, and all of a sudden it's this dangerous body of water. It's transformed overnight from something you barely noticed to something that could wipe everything out. Much like what were dealing with in North Carolina.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. That's such a good point, Sarah. It's a lot of people who I talk to would say, you know, I would never look twice at my creek. Or someone I interviewed for the story that I published in January said, I've never seen the creek behind my house flood ever. You know, and she's lived there for 50 plus years. So it's, it's new bodies of water that are surprising people with, with flooding versus yeah. Kind of what you're explaining, like your respect for this very powerful body of water that you've sort of known all your life. Right. It's a different dynamic, a different relationship.

[Beth Silvers]

So sometimes Sarah and I will talk about climate change and we'll say, why do people keep moving to Arizona? It's so hot. I could see someone reading your reporting and thinking, why don't people just leave this area? If this keeps happening over and over again, why do they stay? What can you tell us from your reporting about that?

[D]

I kind of love how you set that question up because I think there's a really big difference between moving to a place and leaving a place. A lot of people in eastern Kentucky, as we all know, have been there for generations. And so they have very strong family ties, not only to, like, their, their neighbors and their family members, but also to the land, to the property that they've been on for so long. And, you know, I can think about like, my family's Canadian and we grew up on this piece of property where we spent summers. I can't imagine abandoning that piece of property. You know what I mean? I'm so centrally emotionally tied to that, that piece of land. If someone suggested that it was silly of me to try to preserve my relationship with them, I would so quickly dismiss that person. Right. And I think a lot of people who are not only in eastern Kentucky, but in other areas that are increasingly impacted by climate change, it's, it's sort of like the same response. Right. They don't want to leave this place that they're so intimately connected to until they experience some level of trauma. On that place. Right. So if you've been flooded once, maybe you want to try again. If you've been flooded a few times, maybe you want to try again. But I think what the state at least is seeing more is that people are more willing to leave these places even if they have these like, heart wrenching ties to them, if they feel like it will save their lives or their family's lives. And that's not something I've personally had to deal with. So I can't really imagine that kind of emotional decision.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, it feels like so often the narrative in communities, especially in the immediate aftermath of a natural disaster, is that the decision to stay is like intimately tied up with the identity of survivor. Right? We stayed, we fought you, we, we're not going to be, you know, pushed out. This is our home. How are you seeing people? Because there's already a narrative in Appalachia is like fighters entrenched, like very invested, like you said, like very identity driven to the land itself. So how are you seeing people work through that narrative and sort of telling new stories about what it means to survive or love a piece of land?

[D]

I think what I'm seeing as a reporter is that if people have faced this issue for multiple times, it's not only, you know, taken their house, but killed their family member or a neighbor, that really changes your dynamic with a place. But it's also, it's not just this emotional decision. Right. It's also a financial decision. So can you afford to move and is there an option for a place for you to move? So I think what we're seeing now with, under the Bashir administration is the state trying to offer options. So these are obviously, like, it's not mandatory that you leave if you still have a home, but if you don't have a home and you cannot rebuild in the floodplain or you do not want to rebuild in the floodplain, here is potentially another option for you to stay, if not in your community nearby. And so that you don't necessarily have to leave this place if you don't want to and also if you cannot afford to. But I think also someone mentioned Helene earlier and like, what we saw, I think from Hurricane Helene this year hitting especially western North Carolina, is that, you know, there's a lot of this conversation afterwards that there is no place that is safe from climate change. Like every community is going to be impacted by climate change in different ways. So, yeah, after every disaster, there's talk of like, there's, I don't even know if talk is the right word. But there are talking heads who say things like, you know, why would you stay there? Why don't you leave? But like, I think one of the questions I always have is like, well, where do you go? Like, what place is like, free of risk? I don't really know the answer. I mean, some places have less risk, but I don't know what is free of risk.

[Beth Silvers]

Speaking of that risk calculus, I have, like a visceral concern that arises in me when I think about building kind of subdivisions on top of what were coal mines. Are there structural considerations that are having to be dealt with as they try to create these higher ground options for people?

[D]

Really good question and a question I had while I was doing this reporting as well. So when they're surveying these sites, they're doing a bunch of geotechnical surveys that basically say, like, what parts of these sites are foundationally strong enough, I guess, to support a structure like a house? Right. Because we've seen in eastern Kentucky that there are other giant structures like sportsplexes or jails that have been sinking or are now structurally unsound because they were built on strip mines where the earth is like differentially compact after coal companies or bond agencies sort of like reconfigure these properties. So those surveys are done. One thing I heard a lot is that houses are much lighter. They have a much lighter footprint than some of these huge complexes, and so therefore they're not as likely to settle. And there are parts of some of these communities that have been surveyed that you're not supposed to build houses on. Right. Like they might become a public park or like a walking trail, but they're not sound enough to build homes. Scott McReynolds, who's with the Housing Development alliance based in Hazard, he had a really good quote where he was just like, you know, nothing is foolproof. And we are doing this. We are trying this. We think it's a good idea. We would not be doing it if we didn't think it was a good idea. We wouldn't be investing hundreds of millions of dollars. And like, there's sort of a lot riding on it. Right? There's a lot riding on the success of it. So I think they're pretty confident. But again, like, who's to say what happens in 25 years? I don't think people. People can't say, but they can say this is our best guess. And these are the ways in which we, we want it to be as safe as possible, especially since one of our goals is to move survivors of floods who may maybe do not feel safe anymore.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, speaking to the investment of it, where is all this money coming from?

[D]

A lot of it's coming from the Housing and Urban Development.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

For now, it's coming from there.

[D]

For now it's coming from there. It's a really good question. I have not recently followed up with the state on to make sure that that grant is, is still moving forward. But I haven't heard that it's not. And then, you know, there is some, a smaller portion of money that's coming from the state and that's coming from private philanthropy, but the majority of the money is coming from the federal government.

[Beth Silvers]

You mentioned an organization in hazard. Can you talk about how like partner agencies get involved when that federal money is flowing in and sort of the significance of those partner agencies to building trust around a project like this?

[D]

So most of that federal money is going from my understanding is going to local housing alliances that have sort of been in the area for decades and that have been building what is intended to be affordable housing for decades. Again, I don't live in eastern Kentucky, but my understanding is there's already a lot of trust in these agencies to build homes for folks that will be long lasting. And the people that I talk to are very much, very deeply integrated in their communities. So it seems to be a good model versus bringing in like out of state developers or something like that, or a lot of for profit developers. I think an interesting part of this story is that because of the economy in eastern Kentucky and because of how hard it is to find like flat housing sites in eastern Kentucky, it's extremely expensive for for profit developers to try to come in and build homes. So for a long time people have relied on new homes being built by these sort of like non profit developers.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I think one of the complexities around this discussion and the, the broader perspective of climate change is how different every natural disaster is. I know you've been covering the wildfires and mudslides. How does it change based on the type of natural disaster? And are there lots of easy universals you can look to?

[D]

The conversation is obviously different depending on the disaster, right? Just it kind of like depends on what your hazards are. So for example, if you're at risk of, if you're like in California or somewhere out west and you're really at risk of wildfires, your adaptation might look more like trimming trees around your house or like building your house with more fire resistant materials or being located more, more closely to some kind of like reservoir. Right. Whereas, like, with flooding, you sort of. The idea is you want to be high and away from water as much as possible, or you want to, like. You want to, like, elevate your house, or you want your house to be elevated. Mudslides are tricky. I mean, you just like a landslide situation, which we also have a lot of in Kentucky. It's dangerous to be near a slope that could slip, but that is like, kind of like a whole nother can of worms, honestly. But, yeah, I think adaptation is very local. So, like, a lot of solutions for adaptation to climate change are very localized. And I think one of the reasons that this story is so interesting is because, like, nowhere else really, than eastern Kentucky is probably going to do something like this. Like, maybe West Virginia, maybe maybe Southwest Virginia. But it's a pretty unique eastern Kentucky example for, like, an innovative way to hopefully successfully try to relocate folks who want to move. But obviously, every region could have its own unique response to the own unique hazards that it faces.

[Beth Silvers]

And do you think that's good, or do you think that we need to be doing more, maybe on a federal level to prepare for and be ready to respond to climate events like this?

[D]

I think a twofold answer to that. I think, yes, it is good to have a local response to a local problem. Right. Like, Hazard knows way better than Washington, D.C. how to answer its issues with flooding, but Hazard doesn't have the same level of resources that Washington, D.C. has to answer its issues with flooding. So, yes, I think there needs to be so much more federal investment in climate change adaptation. Are we going to see that under this administration? I'm not sure, but I do think that it's something that was pushed forward previously and communities deserve.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, Austin, thank you so much for your reporting. It's really comforting and enriching to have a reporter who knows Kentucky writing about Kentucky issues in the New York Times. So thank you for the time that you're spending in these communities and the way that you're sharing it with the broader world.

[D]

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the work that you guys do.

[Beth Silvers]

Thank you to Austin for spending time with us and to all of you for sticking with us through some really tough topics today. We always end by talking about something outside of politics because we are full and complete human beings and we don't want to be mired in so much tragedy that we forget the joy in life. And, Sarah, I noticed in a comment on Substack that you prefer to listen to country music in the summer, and that really connected with me. I like country music in the summer too. So I wanted to talk about country music today, and I especially wanted to ask you if there are, like, country music lyrics that have just been implanted in your brain that you go back to over and over. Cause I think a country song can really cut to the heart of things sometimes. And I wanted to hear what. What stays with you.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, my probably number one lyrics, particularly from 1990s country, is Trisha Yearwoods. The song remembers when I love the line, but that's just a lot of water underneath a bridge I've burned I'll just think it's so and there's no use been backtracking around corners I have turned I could keep going but I won't. I just think it's really poetic and beautiful and complicated, and I love that song. And I love Trisha because she's my Queen. She's my 90s country queen. I will. I know other people have other preferences. They are wrong. Trisha is the best.

[Beth Silvers]

I mean, I don't know that we need to disrespect people like Reba McIntyre that way, but I'm with you on my love for Trisha. You're what I think a lot about. She's in love with the boy. And the part where the mom sings back to the dad that his parents were saying the same things about him that he was saying about their daughter's boyfriend, and he was wrong. And honey, you are too. I love that line so much. I think about that a ton right now. On my list is also Pam Tillis. Do you remember Pam Tillis? Another great country female artist.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Country Nepo baby.

[Beth Silvers]

Yes, but still talented. Again, we don't need to take anything away from these women. I think about the song spilled perfume from 1994, which relates to absolutely nothing in my life experience and especially didn't in 1994. But the chorus where she says, right now you hate yourself because you knew better, but there's no use crying over spilled perfume just comes back to me pretty often whenever I make a terrible mistake. I sang this song to myself so much when I was breastfeeding and I was like pumping at work if I ever spilled any pumped milk, what a tragedy that was. And I would just hear Pam being like, there's no use crying over spilled perfume.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Love it. Love it. Well, I just think so much of 90s country in particular captures the summer like strawberry wine's full of great lines. I think that there's just a lot of summer imagery in country music. I have to tell you, though, I have not actually been listening to that much country this summer. I was listening to Amy Poehler's podcast, which is fine. I don't know why everybody else is.

[D]

Freaking out about it.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

It's fine. I don't like Amy any less, but it's just fine. But I was listening to Rashida Jones on there, and she was talking about her, like, complete devotion to 90s R&B. And it just got me, like, yeah, what about. What about 90s R&B? So.

[Beth Silvers]

Really?

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Yeah. And I wrote about this in our newsletter. I started listening to Candy Rain. Not lyrically complex. Nothing worth quoting in Candy Rain. Don't get me. Don't get me wrong about that. Often. Some of these 90s R B songs are not the most lyrically complex. I will leave you to Malcolm Gladwell to explain why country music is more lyrically complex than pop or other genres. But it's just. I like, there's just a lot of forgotten songs. I've started making a playlist called Forgotten Bangers. And there's a lot of 90s R&B on there. Cause I just feel like it doesn't. Beyond, like, some, like, Motown Philly doesn't get a lot of play on, like, the mix, which is now, like, 50 years of decades. I love that they just keep tacking. They don't. They're not, like, cutting the 60s. They just are, like, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. You're like, how. How long are y' all gonna stretch this out for? I think it's so funny. But you know that, like, perfect. Cause I think nine. There are some country songs, like how Ketchum Small Town, Saturday Night. When I, like, rediscovered it, I was like, I forgot this song. But, like, a song you know, every word to this is. This is my Forgotten Bangers, like, rubric. You kind of forgot it, but you still know every word. But it hasn't been, like, rung out of air. Every emotional resonance because you've listened to it so many. That's what I run into with country songs. I listen to them so much. I just rung them all the way out. Like, I can almost. I love the chicks. I'm completely devoted to them. But their songs don't hit me anymore because I listen to them so much. I just strip them of everything available in the song. Do you know what I mean? Don't you have songs like that? You just. I've listened to it too many times. I've listened to it too many times.

[Beth Silvers]

I definitely have songs I've Listened to too many times. I will say that I still discover some chick songs like rediscover in that forgotten banger way that you're describing. I was telling Jane about a chick song and we turned it on and it's you were mine from 1998. And the part where she says, I can give you two good reasons to show you love's not blind. He's two and she's four, and you know they adore you, so how can I tell them that you've changed your mind? And Jane was like, whoa. And I said, I know. That tells the story, does it not? And so there. I still find like a lot of gems when I go back. I kind of live in the 90s musically because that's what Chad likes to listen to. And we listen to that podcast, 60 songs that explain the 90s and now the 2000s, kind of religiously. So I'm sort of back in this universe all the time. And I'm just, you know, I know that everybody's attached to the music of their childhood, but I'm pleased with ours. It was good stuff.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

That chick song always reminds me of Shania Twain. Home ain't where his heart is anymore. You may still come home, but I live here alone. Why was I so into songs in high school about dead marriages? I don't know. But no, I totally agree about the 90s. I used to really not love 90s music. I'm not gonna lie to you. Even though it was this 90s country was probably my gateway drug back into the 90s. Cause, like, I don't. There's not a lot of like 90s pop music. I do not understand Chad's devotion to 90s one hit wonders. I think the 90s were the worst of the one head wonders. Maybe the aughts, maybe they have worst one hit wonders. It's a tough one, but every once in a while, like, somebody will like grab a. You know, they'll grab like a song because there are good. Like some of the forgotten bangers are often one hit wonders. And I think that's why they. They get lost. You also forget how much happened in the 90s where it was just the whole album. Like, if you go back and look at the like top 100 for those years, it's just. It'll be like somebody's entire album, which I feel like doesn't happen anymore. I mean that. Who's better? Your Boots Been under by Shania Twain. It has like 10 songs on it. Eight of them were like number one hits. It's a crazy, crazy high proportion of songs on that album that went number one.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, the albums were exciting because CDs had just become a thing. And you would buy the CD and you would have the little book with the CD that had all the lyrics, like, you engaged with it as an album in a different way than you do now and in a different way than you ever did with tapes. Like, it was just this perfect marriage of audio and visual and tactile something to touch and hang on to. And so I think that's why, like, I think about Shania Twain, I think about Alanis Morissette, I think about Celine Dion, Garth Brooks, these CDs that I can picture the little booklet from the COVID in my hands still, because I spend so much time with them that way.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Well, Garth Brooks put out that box set of all his number ones. That's what I had that I was, like, super, super obsessed with. Garth Brooks also has a lot of great lines in his songs. I mean, again, country music is known for that. But, yeah, I'm just. I'm really in it. I'm having a 90s karaoke birthday party that I cannot wait for. I cannot wait for it. I cannot wait. I found another forgotten banger. Do you remember Can We Talk By Tevin Campbell? That's my other artist.

[Beth Silvers]

I do remember. Can We Talk?

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

God, that's so good. And I Want to be down by Brandy. I wore that Brandy album out. I loved that album. I wanna be down.

[Beth Silvers]

Bonus. This is all really great music to work out to, like. It's just. It's just perfect for a little workout.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

I mean, I don't know if I'd. I would recommend Home Ain't Where His Heart Is Anymore to work out, too.

[Beth Silvers]

The ballad's not so much.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

The ballad's not so much. Yeah, no, it's so good. It's so good. I just. I'm really feeling it. I'm really. I'm in it deep.

[Beth Silvers]

When I was, I think, 11 years old, I went on a trip driving to the Florida Keys from Kentucky.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

No, you should drive with my grandparents all the way to the Florida Keys.

[Beth Silvers]

Well, we did it.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

We did it.

[Beth Silvers]

And my grandfather loved country music. And so we would drive until the country music radio station got all crackly, and then he would just surf until he found the next one. And this was the summer that Alan Jackson's Chattahoochee was everywhere. And so we listened to the song Chattahoochee approximately 30,000 times on our drive from Kentucky to the Florida Keys. As we found the new radio station and it played it again. And I was thinking about that song so much while I was driving my kids to camp and thinking about Texas and because Chattahoochee is about a river down by the river on a Friday night and I love the line, but I learned how to swim and I learned who I was. A lot about living and a little about love. And I really hope that as all of our kids, as many of our kids are at camp right now, that that's what they're getting, that they're learning how to swim and learning who they are and a lot about living in a little bit of love.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

There's just a lot of coming of age songs in 90s country music. Just a lot of that particular coming of age genre. And the way I know that is because after the release of our second book, if you're like desperate to engage with 90s country, after this conversation, I made a playlist called now what? We listen to Dainese country and it has a timeline. You are to listen to it in order. It's not to be shuffled, people. It goes from like, like small town, coming of age, falling in love, having kids, falling out of love. Because you get, you often have a second love. We're going to get a second love. Sometimes the love is eternal with like Randy Travis, but sometimes you get a second chance at love in country music. So I put them all together in like a life along, along the timeline of a life. If you're interested in this, we will put the link in the show notes and you can send me your forgotten bangers. But I'm not going to open the playlist up because I don't trust you people. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just a control freak, but I am interested in people's forgotten bangers of all genres that I might add to my playlist if they're good enough.

[Beth Silvers]

Sarah, you have said at least 60 things that I want to argue with you about in this segment, but we're going to let it go for today. We cannot pick everybody battle. I really appreciate all of you being with us. If you are not already subscribed to Pantsy Politics, we would love for you to spend more time hanging out with us anywhere that you get your podcast. We'll be back on Friday to continue our summer flashback series and we'll be with you between now and then on Substack. Everybody have the best week of Phillips.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Pantry Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

[Beth Silvers]

Elise Knapp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

[Beth Silvers]

Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers Martha.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Brunitsky, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliott, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holiday, Katie.

[Beth Silvers]

John, Emily Helen Olson, Barry Kaufman, Kathryn.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Vollmer, Lori Ladou, Lily McClure, Linda Daniel, Tracy Putoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katie Steigers, Karen True, Annika Yuvaline, Nick and elisa Valelli, Leeshay McDonough, Morgan McHugh, Jen Ross, Sabrina Drago, Becca Dorval, Christina Quartararo.

[D]

Shannon Frawley, Samantha Chalmers, Crystal Kemp, Megan.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Hart, Valleybo Family the Adair family Jenny.

[D]

Francis, Leanna, Pilgrim Larson, the Monene family.

[Sarah Stewart Holland]

Ashley Renee, Michelle Palacios, Catherine Jardine, Caness.

[Beth Silvers]

Jessica and Brandon Krause, Veronica Samolitis, Suzanne Dickinson, Michelle Dean.