Is Lina Khan The Most Hated Person on Wall Street?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know – "Is Lina Khan The Most Hated Person on Wall Street?"

Host: Hasan Minhaj
Guest: Lina Khan, Chair of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
Release Date: September 26, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know, Hasan Minhaj engages in a candid and incisive conversation with Lina Khan, the Chair of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). Known for her rigorous stance against monopolistic practices, Khan has become a pivotal figure in the fight against corporate America's excesses. The episode delves deep into her role, the challenges she faces, and the broader implications of her work on American consumers and the economy.

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FTC's Antitrust Actions and Monopolistic Practices

Discussion Points:

• Antitrust Enforcement: Hasan opens the dialogue by referencing recent antitrust cases, including TicketMaster. He clarifies the roles of the DOJ and FTC in these matters.

Notable Quote:

• [00:11] Lina Khan: "There is no shortage of monopolistic practices to take on in the economy. And so we're really glad to have them as partners in this work."

Khan emphasizes the FTC's commitment to tackling monopolistic behaviors across various industries, highlighting the collaborative efforts with other governmental bodies to ensure fair competition.

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Subscription Cancellation Efforts

Discussion Points:

• Consumer Protections: Hasan humorously asks Khan to cancel his membership with Planet Fitness, leading to a broader discussion on the FTC's proposed rule to make subscription cancellations as straightforward as sign-ups.

Notable Quotes:

• [03:05] Lina Khan: "We proposed a rule that would apply across the board, and it would require that companies make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to sign up for one."
• [04:00] Lina Khan: "Be it in the case of trying to cancel a gym subscription or all sorts of other subscriptions that people originally signed up for... designed to trap you and prevent you from canceling in the first place."

Khan outlines the FTC's initiative to eliminate deceptive subscription practices, ensuring consumers can effortlessly manage their memberships without undue hassle.

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Lina Khan’s Approach to Suing Corporations

Discussion Points:

• Aggressive Enforcement: Hasan points out Khan's extensive litigation against major corporations, questioning the impact on the American workforce and business environment.

Notable Quote:

• [05:15] Lina Khan: "We only bring lawsuits against companies that have broken the law, and we apply the law without fear or favor."

Khan defends the FTC's selective and law-based approach to litigation, emphasizing that their actions are grounded in legal merit rather than personal vendettas.

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Criticism and Interaction with Lawmakers

Discussion Points:

• Facing Opposition: The conversation shifts to the backlash Khan faces from powerful figures like Larry Summers and interactions with lawmakers during congressional hearings.

Notable Quotes:

• [07:38] Lina Khan: "So at the FTC, we're really focused on really looking at business realities... historically have not mapped onto what's really happening in the industry."
• [09:03] Lina Khan: "I've never seen a piece of paper like that before."

Khan addresses the criticisms of her methods and policies, reiterating the FTC's focus on practical business realities over outdated academic theories. She also touches on the challenges posed by political pushback during hearings.

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Non-Compete Clauses Ban

Discussion Points:

• Protecting Workers: Hasan and Khan discuss the FTC's landmark move to ban non-compete clauses across various industries, explaining their significance and impact on the workforce.

Notable Quotes:

• [17:51] Lina Khan: "Non compete clauses are these provisions that show up in a lot of people's contracts with their bosses... you cannot go work for a competitor."
• [18:34] Lina Khan: "One in five Americans are covered by a non compete."

Khan details how non-compete clauses restrict workers' mobility and economic freedom, highlighting the FTC's efforts to dismantle such practices to empower employees across all sectors.

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Supreme Court Decision’s Impact on FTC

Discussion Points:

• Legal Challenges: The episode covers the Supreme Court's overturning of the Chevron v. NRDC decision, which poses significant challenges to the FTC's regulatory authority.

Notable Quotes:

• [20:53] Lina Khan: "Today the Supreme Court's conservative majority upended the way our federal government functions..."
• [21:15] Lina Khan: "This could potentially throw that into question."

Khan explains how the reversal of a pivotal Supreme Court precedent undermines the FTC's ability to enforce regulations effectively, casting uncertainty on ongoing and future initiatives like the ban on non-competes.

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Online Fraud and Fake Reviews

Discussion Points:

• Combatting Deception: Hasan introduces the topic of online fraud, leading Khan to elaborate on the FTC's measures against fake reviews and deceptive online practices.

Notable Quotes:

• [24:40] Lina Khan: "So we're going after fake reviews... companies are buying reviews and suppressing negative ones."
• [24:55] Lina Khan: "It was distorting what consumers and buyers were seeing."

Khan highlights the FTC's proactive stance in ensuring online transparency and honesty, protecting consumers from manipulated reviews that can distort purchasing decisions.

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Media Industry Consolidation

Discussion Points:

• Impact on Creativity and Fair Compensation: The discussion turns to the consolidation within the media industry, such as the merger of streaming platforms, and its effects on creators and competition.

Notable Quote:

• [23:30] Lina Khan: "There are ways to fix that."

Khan acknowledges the challenges posed by market consolidation in Hollywood, emphasizing the need for regulatory frameworks to ensure fair compensation and maintain a competitive environment that benefits both creators and consumers.

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Conclusion and Final Remarks

Discussion Points:

• Final Thoughts: The episode wraps up with light-hearted interactions, showcasing the dynamic between Hasan and Lina. Khan reflects on the public support for the FTC's initiatives despite corporate pushback.

Notable Quotes:

• [14:53] Lina Khan: "The FTC is fighting back against junk fees, non compete clauses, subscription traps, illegal monopolies... there is a lot of support for what the FTC is doing."

Hasan commends Khan for her diligent and often underappreciated work, contrasting her methodical approach with the typical charismatic figures in the media, and appreciating the substantive impact of her efforts.

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Key Takeaways

• FTC's Vigilant Role: Under Lina Khan's leadership, the FTC is aggressively targeting monopolistic practices, deceptive subscription models, and non-compete clauses to protect consumers and promote fair competition.

• Political and Legal Challenges: Khan navigates significant opposition from powerful economic figures and faces legal setbacks with Supreme Court decisions that may hinder regulatory authority.

• Consumer Empowerment: The FTC's initiatives aim to simplify consumer interactions with corporations, ensuring transparency and fairness in various aspects of the economy, from online reviews to employment contracts.

• Broader Economic Implications: Khan's work extends beyond consumer protection, addressing systemic issues in market structures and advocating for policies that support both consumers and workers in a rapidly evolving economic landscape.

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Notable Moments:

• [03:18] Hasan's humorous lament about being an unwilling Planet Fitness member, illustrating common consumer frustrations.
• [05:15] Lina Khan's clarification on the FTC's impartial approach to litigation.
• [17:51] Detailed explanation of non-compete clauses and their widespread impact on American workers.
• [20:53] Discussion on the Supreme Court's influence on the FTC's regulatory capabilities.
• [24:40] Insights into the FTC's crackdown on online fraud and fake reviews, highlighting efforts to maintain digital integrity.

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This episode provides an in-depth look into Lina Khan's strategies and challenges as the FTC Chair, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the ongoing battle against corporate malpractices and the quest for a fairer economic system.

Transcript

[Hasan Minhaj]

One recent antitrust case that obviously made national news. TicketMaster. But that's DOJ, not FTC, right?

[Lina Khan]

That's the antitrust division at the Justice Department. That's right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What would have been huge for you.

[Lina Khan]

There is no shortage of monopolistic practices to take on in the economy. And so we're really glad to have them as partners in this work.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's gotta be a little tension, though. I bet, like, Merrick Garland came into your office and was just like, we'll take it from here, Khan. And then you were like, merrick, this case is mine. Ticketmaster killed my family. And then Merrick Garland was like, that's exactly why I'm taking you off the case, Khan. You're too close to it. And then you flip the desk. You're like, God damn it, Merrick. This is about my father. And then Mayor Garland was like, I can't handle any more of this insubordination from UConn. Hand over your badge. Something like that, right?

[Lina Khan]

It was not that way. No.

[Scott]

Most people in America go viral after they have a mental breakdown at Costco or they get into a fistfight at a Waffle House. But the chair of the Federal Trade Commission, Lina Khan, is a little bit different. She went viral for a law journal article she wrote in 2017 called Amazon's antitrust Paradox. Essentially, she argued that Amazon and other tech platforms were bad for competition and bad for workers. Now, normally, this kind of attitude leads to a job working at Legal Aid or starting a substack with only four followers, including your mother. But by 2021, Big Tech was so unpopular and Lina Khan was so policy wonk famous that President Biden nominated her to become chair of the FTC at only age 32. The same age I learned how to properly cut an avocado, cut it in half, press the knife into the pit, twist, pull it out, and spoon out the good stuff.

[Lina Khan]

Then eat it.

[Scott]

After three years of going after some of the richest people in the country, Lina Khan has become the most hated and feared person on Wall Street. And billionaire political donors are openly lobbying.

[Hasan Minhaj]

To get rid of her.

[Scott]

Lina Khan is a person who is not helping America. I would hope that Vice President Harris would replace her.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There have been reports that a number of prominent Democrats have been lobbying Harris to drop people like Lina Khan. Would you lobby for that?

[Scott]

Yeah, I would.

[Lina Khan]

You would?

[Scott]

Yeah. I think she's a dope. So I sat down with Chair Khan to discuss suing the shit out of corporate America. Why the Wall Street Journal is so obsessed with her and whether she's willing to admit that Larry Summers is a neoliberal asshat.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hurry. Right away. No delay. Stop it.

[Scott]

Before we get to the interview, let's talk business. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com Husson ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. Stop calling me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a fake company. Thank you so much, Chair Khan.

[Lina Khan]

Thanks for having me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm just gonna dive right into the deep end. Let's nerd out.

[Lina Khan]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As head of the Federal Trade Commission, it is your job to help protect consumers from predatory companies or corporations. Or to protect innocent Americans from getting ripped off.

[Lina Khan]

Yes, that's right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Great. So on behalf of all working class Americans, Chair Khan, will you please help me cancel my membership to Planet Fitness?

[Lina Khan]

We're actually working on that very thing. Are you being serious on canceling subscriptions?

[Hasan Minhaj]

But I mean specifically Planet Fitness.

[Lina Khan]

So we proposed a rule that would apply across the board, and it would require that companies make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to sign up for one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a fastball for your whole team. Like I'm telling you, if you did this, this would be huge. Chair Khan, I have been an unwilling member of Planet Fitness for the past 11 years. Eleven years ago, I went to the Times Square, Planet Fitness, which, as you know, is hell on earth. And for the past 11 years, they've been charging me $6.99 a month. And I'm afraid my children will have to pay for this even after my demise.

[Lina Khan]

You're not alone. This is a problem that plagues Americans across the board. Be it in the case of trying to cancel a gym subscription or all sorts of other subscriptions that people originally signed up for, be it some type of publication, be it some type of media network that they find it's really easy to sign up, just one click. But then in order to cancel, you have to navigate this entire bureaucracy that sometimes seems like it's designed to trap you and prevent you from canceling in the first place.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Lina Khan]

So that's the problem that we're trying to take on. We think that that's unfair, it can be deceptive, and that it's unlawful and that people should be able to cancel a subscription as easily as they're able to sign up for one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You've become one of the most significant figures in the business world, and you have done it by suing the shit out of corporate America. The FTC has gone after Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, Epic Games, Nvidia, Lockheed, Rite Aid, Kroger, Big Pharma, Private equity. You are basically suing every company that every college grad wants to work for. So, Chair Khan, why are you making it so hard for Gen Z to sell out like millennials?

[Lina Khan]

We only bring lawsuits against companies that have broken the law, and we apply the law without fear or favor. We think it's incredibly important as law enforcers and as public servants that we don't just bring the hammer down when it comes to small businesses and give big businesses a free pass. It's really important to apply the law equally. One of the main factors that we look at when we're setting our priorities is where's there the biggest harm? Where are people most getting hurt? And oftentimes that happens when you have larger companies because they have such a big impact. We also, when we go after monopolies, are focused on the dominant players that have used their power illegally.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Obviously, being such a public figure has its pros and cons, right? You get to be the face of so many amazing wins. But then you also have your critics. You are every tech oligarch's least favorite person next to their wife and children. As of this interview, there are over 98 Wall Street Journal articles about you. We're shooting this in New York, like down on Wall Street. There's just a bunch of bankers on their Bloomberg terminals screaming at the sky like they're in that Star Trek movie. Just. Do you like that heat?

[Lina Khan]

Look, we protect the public. And it's inevitable that when you're taking on powerful corporations that are breaking the law, there's going to be pushback. And we think it's important to stay focused on who we represent and who we're fighting for. And that's the American public.

[Hasan Minhaj]

One of your highest profile critics is Larry Summers. Larry Summers was Bill Clinton's Treasury Secretary and played a key role in deregulating the financial sector, which led to the 2008 meltdown. Then he went back to the White House during the Obama administration to help fix the economy that he essentially broke. And then he somehow made it worse. But he still held up as this, like, eminent economic thinker.

[Scott]

Mr. Summers, welcome back to Meet the Press.

[Lina Khan]

Larry Summers. Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Joining us now, Harvard economics Professor Lawrence Summers. From where I'm sitting chair, Khan, respectfully, I think Larry Summers is a clown show. Why does anyone listen to him?

[Lina Khan]

So at the ftc, we're really focused on really looking at business realities. And so I know there's been a shift away from some of the academic models and theories that just historically have not mapped onto what's really happening in the industry.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Shere Khan, if you made one mistake, you would be destroyed in the press. There is zero margin for error. You have to be so cuman, perfect, so buttoned up. Larry Summers has spent the past 40 years of his career failing upwards. Does that not make you furious?

[Lina Khan]

Look, I'll leave it to others to be the judge of that, but we're focused on doing what the FTC has created to do. And that means really hearing from a broad set of these.

[Hasan Minhaj]

For the love of God, Chair Khan, just admit that Larry Summers is a spineless, double chin, mouth breathing hack that hates poor people.

[Lina Khan]

I won't comment on that. But you know, we talk to a lot of people, we hear from a lot of people, including prior policymakers, prior people who were in positions of making economic policy. But we're also really focused on just hearing from regular Americans because we think if you don't do that, that can create blind spots and you can get stuck in some of the theories and models that I think you were talking about that ended up blowing up the US economy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Congratulations, you passed the test.

[Lina Khan]

I've never seen a piece of paper like that before.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So she didn't break? She didn't break.

[Lina Khan]

Did you have bets or anything?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, we had bets. Cause I know how you feel about economists.

[Lina Khan]

We have a lot of great economists at the ftc.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As someone who has gotten caught up with the press myself, there is no need to needlessly lie.

[Scott]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Just aren't on Wall Street. They're also in Congress. So last July, you were dragged in front of the House Judiciary Committee hearing for four hours, which just from an ergonomic perspective, is absolutely torture. Did they at least give you one of those, like, little bead things that they put on the seats for Gabby's?

[Lina Khan]

No, it was a regular chair, so.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Parts of it were pretty brutal. This raises the Question, Shere Khan, are you losing on purpose over 350 separate requests you've demanded of Twitter? Why are you harassing them?

[Steve Cohen]

My problem here today is that you're a bully. What's your view of capitalism?

[Hasan Minhaj]

So, yeah, chair convicted. What's your view of capitalism? Thumbs up, thumbs down.

[Lina Khan]

Well, competition is a critical part of our free enterprise system, our capitalistic system. And instead, when you have monopolies, centralize more and more control so that you have a more centralized economy. That's actually anathema to capitalism. And so it was a pleasure to get to explain to members of Congress how it was that the FTC's work is actually furthering the goals of free and fair competition.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If you don't mind me asking, what does anathema mean?

[Lina Khan]

Like hostile or opposite to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, good. I legitimately didn't know. That's not a bit. I want to show you a moment of you taking questions from Congressman Steve Cohen.

[Steve Cohen]

I had a bundle with Disney, Hulu, and ESPN 26 or something, and I tried to get out of that bundle and just do Hulu or something. And whatever it is, I'm being charged for both of them, and I've given up. I've just tried to cancel, and it's just too much. It needs to be easy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is this a congressional hearing, or Is this a FaceTime with my parents? You're the head of the FTC. Why are you being called in to do tech support for a boomer in a seersucker suit? What is going on?

[Lina Khan]

I think he was speaking to the frustration that a lot of people have when, as a consumer, you feel disempowered or that things are totally outside of your control and you can't really exercise free choice. And so be that when you're dealing with a subscription or when things are bundled, when you just want one of those, I think those are experiences that everybody can relate to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was surprised to see that at the hearing, some Republicans were really into you, like Matt Gaetz.

[Scott]

The American people should know that Cochava geolocates where people go to church, and then they sell that data to commercial enterprises. Right?

[Lina Khan]

That's right.

[Scott]

That's real creepy, isn't it?

[Hasan Minhaj]

How surreal is it to have the creepiest guy in Congress call something creepy and then you agree with him on.

[Lina Khan]

Questions of corporate power. There is a long tradition of people across the political spectrum recognizing that unchecked corporate power, that unchecked monopolies can really undermine people's liberties and really threaten our democracy. And so, you know, Anti monopoly. There shouldn't be anything partisan about it. And so I'm always happy to work with members across both parties on those issues.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You have the extreme right and the extreme left that are down with what you're doing. It'd be like if someone told me the two biggest fans of my comedy were Elizabeth Warren and Kim Jong Un.

[Lina Khan]

You're right. What the FTC is doing, I wouldn't.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Know what to do with that info. Chair Khan.

[Lina Khan]

Look, you're right. What the FTC is doing is extraordinarily popular with the American people and the American public. All too often there can be this basic indignity of being a consumer. And what the FTC is fighting back. Taking on junk fees, taking on non compete clauses that trap people, taking on subscription traps, taking on, you know, illegal monopolies that are hiking the price of groceries or gas or healthcare. And so you're absolutely right that there is fierce corporate pushback from those monopolies. But out in the real world, I think there is a lot of support for what the FTC is doing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

One of the things that I thought that was really cool that you wrote about was how myopic it is to look at someone as a consumer. There's so many other things that define who we are.

[Lina Khan]

That's exactly right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's other ways to think about it.

[Lina Khan]

Yeah, it feels kind of artificial to just kind of silo somebody and say, I'm just going to look at how you're harmed as a consumer.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'd be like if I got on stage and was like, what's up customers?

[Scott]

Yikes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like there's not a way to.

[Lina Khan]

And more importantly, it's totally at odds with how the laws were written. From the very beginning, there was a recognition that these laws can and should be enforced in a way that protect everybody from illegal monopoly abuse, be it, yes, consumers, but also be it entrepreneurs, small businesses and workers. And so we're really going back to those origins.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think the fact that the new left and the new right really fuck with you is because you're getting at something bigger. You are trying to shift the ideological framework fundamentally. You're trying to shift common sense.

[Lina Khan]

So on economic policy making under this president, we've seen a big shift away from the hands off, laissez faire approach that just assumed that getting out of the way for the government was the way for our economy to best work for people, to an approach that's really focused on reality. Like what's the reality of how these policies of the last 40 years what have they delivered for us and how do we fix for that? You know, the idea that if you allow firms to become monopolies, they're going to actually deliver lower prices has just been debunked time and time after again. And so that's why we need to focus on really using our tools in the way that Congress intended, in the ways the laws are written to fight back against illegal corporate power and monopoly abuse.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So in September of last year, you finally came back full circle where it all started. Your white whale, Amazon. This is your Jake Paul, Mike Tyson fight. What is your goal with the Amazon lawsuit? And why do you hate convenience? Yeah. Thanks. Here you go. Sorry about that. Thank you. You're welcome. Appreciate that. I don't want. I don't know if this doesn't trigger you or anything like that, but I needed to.

[Lina Khan]

Or.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Or something. Okay. All right. Come to daddy. Sorry about that. That was thirsty. Okay. I know you're not allowed to talk about the case, right?

[Lina Khan]

Just at a high level. But it is in litigation, right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

So just for the record, if you have access to Jeff Bezos text messages, blink once.

[Lina Khan]

We did a thorough investigation, got data and info from everywhere. Companies are actually required to preserve records. And as our team recently argued in court, unfortunately, executives haven't always abided by that. And so we've actually dealt with situations where executives deleted messages even though they should have stored them and handed them over.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You blinked 14 times.

[Lina Khan]

Interpret that how you will.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sher Khan. I knew it. You've seen the same stuff the Saudis saw. One of your biggest wins most recently was banning non compete clauses in employment. So just take me through that. What are non compete clauses?

[Lina Khan]

Non compete clauses are these provisions that show up in a lot of people's contracts with their bosses. And what the non compete provision basically says is even once you leave this employer for a period of time, you cannot go work for a competitor.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And it's not just for white collar workers, by the way. It's not like Jimmy John's was sued as well.

[Lina Khan]

Yes, fast food workers, security guards, janitors, journalists, scientists, healthcare workers. I mean, these non competes have really proliferated across the economy. People across sectors, across income levels. Basically one in five Americans are covered by a non compete.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The most offensive to me was the Jimmy John's lawsuit because it's like if you work for Jimmy John's or Subway, and obviously if you work for Subway, they call you a sandwich artist, which is the most patronizing title they could ever. It's kind of like when you Had a day job and they call you a rock star for staying late. You're like don't call me a rock star. Like we don't need to do these games, Janet. But it's like Subway doesn't talk to Jimmy John's. There's no secret IP being traded hands. And quite frankly, if you are a fast food worker in this country, those are the real frontline workers in my opinion.

[Lina Khan]

That's right. And you know, the FTC brought lawsuits in cases where there were really onerous non compete. So for example, there were security guards making close to minimum wage that had non competes. One of the security guards wanted to go work for a different company. His family life meant that he wanted more flexible or different hours. He actually got a job with a competitor. But when he switched over, he got a multi thousand dollar lawsuit from his old employer. And so really we see not just these non competes in contracts, but employers actually abusing their power, bringing lawsuits, chilling people's basic economic liberties and creating a lot of fear.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so you're framing this as a win. And I have to be honest with you, I have a hesitancy anytime I see the government tout anything as a win. Because I think usually what happens is government frames it as a winner, then there's a countersuit. It goes all the way up to the Supreme Court. They reach out to their billionaire buddies and the whole thing gets nuked. Why is this any different?

[Lina Khan]

Sher Khan so we finalized the rule. We expect it will come into effect in early September. There is a lawsuit challenging the rule. And just to make be clear, this is not unique. Across the Biden administration agencies have been pushing through rules that would make life better for the American people, that would fight back against unfair corporate practices. And across the board you see powerful corporations fighting back.

[Scott]

Incredibly, less than a month after we had this conversation, the exact thing I thought might happen happened. It got overturned.

[Lina Khan]

Today the Supreme Court's conservative majority upended the way our federal government functions by overturning the 40 year old landmark decision, Chevron v. NRDC.

[Scott]

What the Chevron precedent was was a 1984 case which held that in absence of other information, courts should give deference to administrative agencies interpretation of the law.

[Lina Khan]

This also could apply to say, the Federal Trade Commission. The efforts that are underway to ban non competes, for example, this could potentially throw that into question.

[Scott]

The ban on non compete clauses was supposed to come into force at the start of September, but a Texas district court has now barred it nationwide because the FTC quote exceeded its authority. An Authority that the Supreme Court has decided should be decided by the Supreme Court. It's all part of our three branches of government, the legislative branch, the executive branch, and whatever. Daily Caller article. Jeanne Thomas just texted her husband.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's get to the most important issue facing Americans at large, me and my relationship with Hollywood. So after Netflix came along, every media company built their own streaming platform where they went for growth. They threw money at every artist. They were even dumb enough to give me my own show. But now there is, as you know, a contraction in the marketplace where there is a lot of shifting to profitability and, quote, austerity. What does that mean? Because from my perspective, it just feels like a lot of people are getting fired.

[Lina Khan]

It's interesting. I mean, last year when we had the big writers strike, I had a chance to go visit one of the picket lines and hear directly from writers and actors about what their experience of the market was. And oftentimes they shared that. They just didn't feel like they were getting a fair shake. Right. I mean, you had people who were creating huge value for these networks, creating blockbusters, but oftentimes we're being paid less than they were years ago, people seeing a smaller and smaller share overall of the value that they're creating. We also heard a lot of concern about consolidation in the market, how the market over the last few decades has gone from there being a lot of opportunities, a lot of distributors, a lot of studios. And that competition means that. That if you're a writer, if you have a good idea, there are a lot of different places you can go to market, that there are a lot of different avenues to get to market, and then that those studios and networks have to compete with one another in a way that results in you getting a better deal.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What I'll do is I'll just play devil's advocate. Okay. I will speak on behalf of the CEO of some of these companies. What workers and employees are fighting for is an old model. And what we are trying to do by merging and consolidating is actually be alive long enough to survive the future.

[Lina Khan]

There's no doubt that business models are going to evolve, right? But there's no inevitability here. It's not like there's only one fatal outcome that we're all just destined to march towards. There are a lot of different ways that you can structure markets. And when you have a market that increasingly, it seems like, is not really working for the people creating the value in the first place, or ultimately the people who are viewing the content that seems like a broken market. And so there are ways to fix that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Part of your purview at the FTC is online fraud. Okay, now this hasn't been big news, so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what this means. You're finally going after fake online reviews. Yes.

[Lina Khan]

So we're going after fake reviews. And so that can mean, for example, if a company is buying all sorts of reviews and saying, hey, I'll pay you if you give me a positive review.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Lina Khan]

But it can also.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So those five star bots on Yelp.

[Lina Khan]

The five star bots. It can also mean if you're suppressing negative reviews. And one of the lawsuits the FTC brought was actually against a company that said it was showing all the reviews, but actually for lower ranked reviews, it would just not show them at all. And so it was distorting what consumers and buyers were seeing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

When we prepare for these interviews, Scott, our producer, will put together a sheet called a fun fact sheet. When we researched you, we could not find a single fun fact about you, Chair Khan. Like, the only thing we could find on you that's like a consistent theme is there are photos of you on the Internet just standing and holding books. Do you have any hobbies besides standing in libraries and holding books?

[Lina Khan]

I used to have, like, what's a.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Fun fact about Lena Khan?

[Lina Khan]

I am a big cyclist and once biked from Florida to South Carolina.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Amazing. Are you into murder podcasts?

[Lina Khan]

I have not recently listened to some, but I've had a whole bunch recommended to me, so hope to check them out at some point.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Have you ever murdered someone?

[Lina Khan]

No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you have a favorite show?

[Lina Khan]

I have gone through a whole bunch of shows recently.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, it's on Amazon. Fallout's on Amazon. Sorry. Did you see Severance? No, it's on Apple. What do you watch? Tubi.

[Lina Khan]

I recently caught up on the Wire, which I hadn't seen some of the later seasons also saw the show the Americans just been catching up on older shows.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We've had a lot of fun here, Chair Khan, but I want to sincerely thank you for being boring. I have read that you are concise, cogent, intelligent and thoughtful. You are basically going to create a horrible piece of television. And for that, I want to say thank you. Because the biggest issue that my generation has faced is that we have conflated charm and charisma with effectiveness. And the fact is, all of the smartest, most competent people that I know are introverts. So on behalf of myself, the whole staff, and hundreds of millions of Americans. I want to say thank you for being so fucking boring. Chair. Convicted.

[Lina Khan]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you so much. Thank you for being competent, intelligent, and boring. Claire.

[Scott]

Clear.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Boring. Thank you so much. It really means a lot.

[Lina Khan]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Smart. So just come in. You're back. Thank you. Okay. Just ordered some books. I wanted to look smart next to you, so I just thought I could hold some books and then you could hold some books.

[Lina Khan]

Great. Let's do it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We can do it. All right.

[Lina Khan]

Those look like some heavy books.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Hurry. Right away. No relay stopping.

[Scott]

Note to self, remember your son's birthday.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Scott]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Get over yourself.

[Scott]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Love the resume. I'm also proficient in Excel. We have so much in common. Lol.

[Scott]

If you need to hire, go where the talent is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

ZipRecruiter.

[Scott]

Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. You can try it for free at this exclusive web ziprecruiter.com Hussin Again, that's ziprecruiter.com Husson ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire.