Is New Jersey Going MAGA? - with Governor Phil Murphy

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is New Jersey Going MAGA? - with Governor Phil Murphy"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
• Host/Author: 186k Films
• Episode: Is New Jersey Going MAGA? - with Governor Phil Murphy
• Release Date: July 4, 2025
• Description: Two-time Peabody Award-winning comedian and noted IBS sufferer Hasan Minhaj sits down with the biggest names in politics, culture, and tech with questions that are as thought-provoking as they are absurd. Never deferential but always respectful, Hasan approaches his guests with a genuine curiosity in the hope that talking points can be left at the door.

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode features a candid conversation between host Hasan Minhaj and New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy. The discussion delves into the political landscape of New Jersey, exploring shifts toward conservative ideologies, recent policy debates, and Governor Murphy's unique approach to governance.

[00:18] Hasan: "You are our third governor on the show. How does that feel?"

[01:33] Phil Murphy: "Top three, bronze medal. I'm cool."

2. Drones and National Security Concerns

The conversation kicks off with a playful yet pointed discussion about unidentified drones flying over New Jersey. Hasan brings up reports of "unnerving" aerial activities, prompting Governor Murphy to address the issue seriously.

[02:05] Phil Murphy: "Believe it or not, based on everything... there are no aliens."

[03:08] Phil Murphy: "This exposed, in my humble opinion, a big weakness for our national security."

Governor Murphy emphasizes the need for strengthened national defenses concerning drone surveillance, comparing the situation to a "9/11 without the tragedy of loss of extraordinary lives."

3. Congestion Pricing in New Jersey

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the contentious issue of congestion pricing in New York City and its impact on New Jersey commuters. Hasan provides an overview of the policy, which imposes a $9 toll on drivers entering below 60th Street in Manhattan, aimed at raising funds for public transit upgrades.

[04:07] Phil Murphy: "We've got the strongest environmental record of any administration anywhere in the country over the past seven and a half years."

Governor Murphy explains New Jersey's resistance to the proposed congestion pricing deal, highlighting concerns about displaced pollution in Northern Jersey and advocating for a fairer arrangement that benefits New Jerseyans without imposing excessive costs on commuters.

[04:41] Phil Murphy: "The other side has not been willing to engage... We have got a challenge like that. Every big transit system in America has that challenge."

4. Immigration Policies and Federal Investigations

The dialogue shifts to immigration, where Governor Murphy addresses recent statements by U.S. Attorney Alina Haba, who announced an investigation into his administration's handling of immigration matters.

[14:11] Alina Haba (Clip): "I have instructed my office today to open an investigation into Governor Murphy."

[16:01] Phil Murphy: "We cooperate with the feds on immigration matters all the time."

Governor Murphy defends New Jersey's "Immigrant Trust Directive," which separates immigration enforcement from local law enforcement, ensuring that individuals feel safe reporting crimes without fear of immigration repercussions.

[17:09] Hasan: "On some level... that you just played."

[17:30] Phil Murphy: "We are a nation of immigrants, and there's no state in America that speaks to that more loudly than New Jersey."

5. Political Climate and Election Shifts in New Jersey

Hasan and Governor Murphy discuss the political shifts observed in New Jersey's recent elections, noting a "redshift" where Democrats saw reduced margins compared to previous elections.

[24:22] Hasan: "In 2020, Biden carried New Jersey by about 16 points. This time Kamala won by less than 6."

[26:14] Phil Murphy: "I think we'll have a really good candidate. It'll be a very good election. But I think on the margin the Democrats gonna be favored."

Governor Murphy attributes these shifts to national political dynamics, particularly the influence of former President Donald Trump, and emphasizes the importance of Democratic strategies in upcoming elections.

6. Phil Murphy's Background: Goldman Sachs and Public Service

A personal segment explores Governor Murphy's extensive career at Goldman Sachs and his transition into public service, highlighting a tradition of Goldman Sachs alumni entering government roles.

[37:02] Phil Murphy: "It's sort of... it's in the air. You got to do your part for society."

[38:09] Hasan: "What is it about Goldman that makes people want to get into government?"

[40:07] Phil Murphy: "We all had big, important day jobs... there's an opportunity to give into the public service sort of lane."

7. Legislative Achievements and Policy Initiatives

The discussion turns to Governor Murphy's legislative accomplishments, including automatic voter registration, expanded paid family leave, legalization of recreational marijuana, and raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

[27:24] Hasan: "It's going to be a whole lot more... minimum wage to $15 an hour."

[28:11] Phil Murphy: "We don't govern by polling and we don't govern by politics... they're overwhelmingly well received and supported."

Governor Murphy emphasizes that these policies are driven by principles and the well-being of New Jerseyans, not by political gain.

8. Personal Insights and Philosophy

Governor Murphy shares his approach to leadership, balancing empathy with decisive action. He recounts managing family discussions on politics, reflecting the importance of understanding and addressing constituents' concerns.

[29:36] Phil Murphy: "You have to have empathy and sympathy with folks... and do something."

He also draws parallels between historical events in Germany and current political challenges, advocating for vigilance against extremism.

[33:30] Phil Murphy: "That's a very relevant lesson that is out there right now for us."

9. Future Outlook and Conclusion

In the concluding segments, Governor Murphy discusses upcoming events like the Club World Cup in New Jersey, emphasizing readiness and collaboration with New York City. The episode wraps up with a light-hearted exchange and final reflections on New Jersey's appeal as a place to live.

[42:40] Phil Murphy: "Number one, without question, literally, this week just ranked the number one public education system in America."

[44:24] Phil Murphy: "We wear that as a badge of honor. We are literally, I think, the most diverse state in America."

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Hasan and Governor Murphy, highlighting the state's strengths and addressing future challenges with optimism.

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Notable Quotes:

• Governor Phil Murphy on National Security:

  "[03:08] 'This was a classic one of this way from the highest levels of government. No one really could explain what was happening. We ultimately got the equipment that confirmed that this... we are exposed.'"

• Governor Phil Murphy on Congestion Pricing:

  "[04:00] 'I want to admit that was wrong about congestion pricing.'... '[04:07] 'We have the strongest environmental record of any administration anywhere in the country over the past seven and a half years.'"

• Governor Phil Murphy on Immigration:

  "[16:02] 'If you've committed a crime... you are not held responsible if you approach a member of law enforcement and say, hey...'"

• Governor Phil Murphy on Legislative Decisions:

  "[28:11] 'We don't govern by polling and we don't govern by politics...'"

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Conclusion This episode of "Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know" offers an in-depth exploration of Governor Phil Murphy's administration, addressing pressing issues from transportation and environmental policies to immigration and political dynamics. Through respectful debate and insightful dialogue, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of New Jersey's current trajectory and the strategies employed to navigate complex challenges.

Transcript

[Hassan]

Lemonade.

[Phil Murphy]

We're Jersey. We've got the attitude, we've got the boss, we've got Jon Bon Jovi. We've got all the. We ooze with talent, we ooze with diversity. Got the biggest.

[Hassan]

All the guys you just named are white, but that's fine. New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy may not be as famous as his predecessor, Chris Christie, but he's also not as infamous. He doesn't have a single scandal with a gate at the end of it. And he's managed to mostly fly under the radar, not unlike a New Jersey drone, which we will get into. But probably the main reason that Governor Murphy has a lower profile is that unlike pretty much every other American governor, he doesn't seem interested in running for president. What a freak. Here's what I do know about Governor Murphy. He worked at Goldman Sachs for 23 years, which means he is very rich, tight. He was the ambassador to Germany for four years, which means he's always on time. Guten tag. And he is a Democratic governor who Donald Trump seems to like, which means. I don't know what that means. I wanted to find out, so I sat down with the governor to talk about his state's shift to the right, his fight against congestion pricing and something a little less controversial and immigration. You are our third governor on the show. How does that feel?

[Phil Murphy]

Top three, bronze medal. I'm cool.

[Hassan]

Top three.

[Phil Murphy]

I'm cool.

[Hassan]

Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

I'm on the medal stand.

[Hassan]

I also want to congratulate you for defeating the aliens that had taken over New Jersey. Tonight, an aerial mystery that's been described as unnerving is growing. The FBI now investigating multiple reports of unidentified drones flying over New Jersey, some as large as a small car. So are there aliens? Are there not aliens?

[Phil Murphy]

If as as of this sitting. There are no aliens. There was no there there. Believe it or not, based on everything.

[Hassan]

We know, you had an investigation, right?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, we had. We did as. As good a job as we could. Governor, the feds have all the equipment.

[Hassan]

You're telling me these aren't aliens? Let's take a look. Yeah, those aren't aliens.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah. I am telling you that. Yes, those are drones. Those could be some other unmanned flying object. It could be a plane.

[Hassan]

Don't you dare tell me these are cinematographers trying to get aerial footage of Hoboken. That's not what's happening.

[Phil Murphy]

Even my wife and I, taking the dogs out at night were looking up to the heavens at one point. But no, there's no there there.

[Hassan]

Let's take a Look at one of the comments here. Okay. It's not about the drones. It's about the orbs. Why can't folks follow this great video? The drones are monitoring the.

[Phil Murphy]

The orbs.

[Hassan]

So just so our listeners know, you've addressed the drones, but you've been silent on the orbs.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, I haven't said much on orbs. Let me say it. Make a serious point.

[Hassan]

Sure.

[Phil Murphy]

The US As a drone matter. This exposed, in my humble opinion, a big weakness for our national security.

[Hassan]

What did it show? In all seriousness, what does this show?

[Phil Murphy]

This was the classic one of this way from the highest levels of government. No one really could explain what was happening. We ultimately got the equipment that confirmed that this. There was no there there. But we're exposed. This was a 9, 11, if you will, without the tragedy of loss of extraordinary lives, including in New Jersey. We are exposed. I hope that this administration, every administration that follows, does the work they need to do to button up our national defenses as it relates to drones.

[Hassan]

Usually on this show and some of my work, I like to zoom out. We talk about the big picture. But with you, Governor, I'd like to zoom in.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

On a particular issue.

[Phil Murphy]

I feel like you're my dentist.

[Hassan]

I promise you there are no root canals, but this one will hurt. Governor.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

I want you. On camera.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes.

[Hassan]

To admit.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes.

[Hassan]

That you were wrong about congestion pricing.

[Phil Murphy]

Oh, I'm not. I'm not going to do that. I love you, by the way, but I'm not going to do that. And it isn't just congestion pricing as a general matter. It's this particular deal that they've tried to jam down our throats. That's the issue. We've got the strongest environmental record of any administration anywhere in the country over the past seven and a half years. I'm incredibly proud of that. We want to reduce pollution. We want to fight back against climate change, but we can't take a deal that's jammed down the throat of our commuters the way this one has been.

[Hassan]

But it's one of the most popular government policies in recent history. It is objective.

[Phil Murphy]

Not in New Jersey. Not in New Jersey. People are paying a big premium to get into New York. And again, I'm willing to cut a deal. I have been since moment one. We've been willing to cut a deal, sit at the table. But the New York side, the MTA in particular, in this case, we have a good relationship with the governor, outstanding relationship with the mayor, but the MTA is the issue here.

[Hassan]

Okay. We're having A healthy little debate here, folks. Audience, we're having a healthy debate. This is a very tri State argument. I know everybody around the world listens to this podcast, so let me just break down what.

[Phil Murphy]

They're not talking about this in Beijing is what.

[Hassan]

Yeah, yes, yes.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

So we have. We have people who listen in the uk all around the world. Let me explain what's happening here between me and the governor. Okay? So for people who aren't from the tri state area, this is what congestion pricing is. I'm just going to break this down so they have the Wikipedia. New York City started the first congestion pricing program in the country. It's $9 to drive below 60th in Manhattan. It is expected to raise half a billion dollars per year for public transit upgrades. You tried to block it in court, you lost. Then on Donald Trump.

[Phil Murphy]

We're still in court.

[Hassan]

You're still fighting.

[Phil Murphy]

We're still in court.

[Hassan]

You're grappling.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes.

[Hassan]

Then on Donald Trump's Inauguration Day, you sent him a letter, old school, asking for Uncle Donnie's help to crush this thing. Then the Trump White House ordered the termination of congestion pricing with this insane tweet.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay, yeah, I saw that.

[Hassan]

This is at. Yeah, White House congestion pricing is dead. All caps.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

Manhattan and all of New York is saved. Long live the king. And this came from our king at the White House.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes. That's not from me, by the way.

[Hassan]

Now, how excited and validated did you feel when you saw that tweet?

[Phil Murphy]

Listen, put the tweet aside for a moment. The Trump team got there in a different lane than the one we got there. I'll tell you what our legal suit is. It's a very simple one. And it started with the Biden administration. And I'm upset with them. I have to say about this. There's a process you go through at the federal government. It's called environmental Impact Statement. Usually takes a couple of years to consider all facets of something like this on the environment, not just in Manhattan, but in North Jersey and other environs. They did not do that. They did not do that. For whatever reason, we have sued to get them to do that, and we have said we will live with the result of that decision.

[Hassan]

So, wait, wait, Governor, just so I'm following your logic here. You're saying that government, which is usually so bureaucratic and so archaic and so analog, they somehow moved too fast on this issue.

[Phil Murphy]

They did not do the proper environmental work, particularly as it relates to the impact.

[Hassan]

Governor, I'm not also following the environmental argument. If this is about Mother Earth, you're telling me yes, more cars. No on the road is better for Mother Earth?

[Phil Murphy]

No, I'll tell you what this is. This displaces the pollution from Manhattan to Northern Jersey, particularly around the George Washington Bridge. As you described the plan accurately. Yes, the George Washington Bridge is not part of the plan. So you've got a lot of vehicles that otherwise would have been not maybe thrilled with the regular Port Authority tolls, but they have gotten used to it being displaced to go across the George Washington Bridge. A lot more pollution up north in Jersey. So what we, what do we ask for? Putting aside our suit in terms of what we think a fair deal. A deal would be a modest premium that our commuters would have to pay. Not a crazy amount, but we're willing to pay something. And secondly, give us some of the proceeds back in New Jersey so we can mitigate the pollution that was displaced from Manhattan to Jersey. That's our simple ask. Don't be so hard on our commuters. We're willing to do something. Okay, so give us some money back.

[Hassan]

We'll pay something.

[Phil Murphy]

We would be willing to, but the.

[Hassan]

Got to be lower than nine bucks.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah. The other side has not been willing to engage.

[Hassan]

Okay?

[Phil Murphy]

And by the way, they haven't because they themselves will say this is first about their financial challenge and secondly about the environmental challenge. This is the MTA trying to find a way to fill up a big fiscal hole. They will admit that that's the first paragraph of the original proposal. So with all due respect, okay, we've got a challenge like that. Every big transit system in America has that challenge. Give us a little bit of that money to help us on our side be more modest in your ask of our commuters and there's probably a deal there.

[Hassan]

Why are you so anti toll here? Isn't Jersey just an entire toll? The whole state is a toll. I pay a lot of tolls when I go to Jersey.

[Phil Murphy]

We need you back, by the way, we can.

[Hassan]

Hey, this whole discussion is going to be the long pitch to try to get me back.

[Phil Murphy]

That's it.

[Hassan]

And by the way, is this stubbornness also a Jersey thing?

[Phil Murphy]

I think it's a fairness thing.

[Hassan]

Okay, I got you.

[Phil Murphy]

Stubbornness is cool. I mean, we've got backbones, we've got attitude. We're from Jersey, baby. I get that. But do you remember this is about.

[Hassan]

Fairness, Governor, do you remember, and I'm saying this as a comedian, remember back in the day they had the anti smoking stuff. They're like, no more smoking in bars.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

And everyone was like, this is anti freedom. This is horrible. This is that we are descending into fascism. And then it came into play.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, but.

[Hassan]

And people were like, hey, wait a minute.

[Phil Murphy]

Hey, yeah, I smell good.

[Hassan]

I can come home and I smell decent.

[Phil Murphy]

One of my predecessors in New Jersey said that everyone would leave bars in Manhattan and go to Hudson county in New Jersey. That didn't happen to the credit.

[Hassan]

But isn't. Isn't this just the new smoking?

[Phil Murphy]

Conceptually, I'm not opposed to it. I will tell you, however. Yeah, one quick point here because you've got listeners in London.

[Hassan]

Yes.

[Phil Murphy]

London's the first big city in the world to have done this. My wife and I have been in London on two separate occasions. She won in them together. London has got congestion up to its eyeballs. The. The data will show you, the first few years, people change their habit and then they slip right back into their old habit. They get used to the toll. They get used to the premium. So while there are fewer cars going through the tunnels today, I just saw that with my own eyes. Come out over here to. Yeah.

[Hassan]

You were here early.

[Phil Murphy]

I was here early, man.

[Hassan]

Sitting in a black suv, waiting.

[Phil Murphy]

I walked here. You did. Several blocks. Not from Jersey.

[Hassan]

Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

Sadly, the patterns will change, and I hope that doesn't happen because again, conceptually, it's a good idea, but let's get a fair deal for Jersey.

[Hassan]

Look, I love public transit. And let's look at what the money is doing for, I think, constituents that live in Jersey that work in Manhattan that are part of the tri state area. Okay. Did you see the New York Times video on this? This is a crazy video. It was embedded in an article. Okay, so play this. This is what the current signaling system looks like for the mta. This is not in, like a children's history museum. This is.

[Phil Murphy]

Is that Willy Wonka with the blue. Yeah.

[Hassan]

This is not some, like, some dude in Brooklyn operating the keg taps at a steampunk bar in Williamsburg. This is a poor woman with latex gloves, like she's in a chemistry class operating. Yeah, I know the signals for the.

[Phil Murphy]

Current train, but that's. I would just say this. That's not acceptable. But it's also not my fault.

[Hassan]

This is the butter churning of public.

[Phil Murphy]

Transit, but this is not my fault. I want a fair deal. We have challenges in our. NJ Transit has had a big fiscal hole. We solved that within the four walls of New Jersey by putting in a corporate transit fee, which corporations were not happy about, but we took that pain. I want a fair deal, including some, some bucks back to the Jersey side and making it easier for our community.

[Hassan]

I hear you, Governor. And so just so people are aware, if you see what's happening right now, you have respectful debate. This is very rare in this country.

[Phil Murphy]

That's true, actually.

[Hassan]

People having two different opinions. Hey, we're still respectful. But let's take a look at the scoreboard. Okay, Let me just take a look. Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

Ridership, no tomatoes. Oh, God.

[Hassan]

Okay. But for real, ridership on public transit is up. I think that's awesome. Traffic is down. That's great. You got here early. Delays through tunnels between New Jersey and New York have plummeted. Some of our staff, they live in Jersey.

[Phil Murphy]

Yep.

[Hassan]

Less honking, less air pollution, fewer traffic related injuries. You notice we're having this conversation in Manhattan? We haven't had to stop down for noise. That happens all the time. We have less, hey, fuck yous per capita more than Jersey.

[Phil Murphy]

I mean, come on. Yeah, it's plummeting. I can't be true.

[Hassan]

It's fallen. It's like the s and P500 right now. It's dipping in unprecedented fashion. But you know what? Let's stop talking esoterically. Let's do a human interest story about your constituents. Okay, My dear guppa.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay, you're teeing somebody up here.

[Hassan]

Let's talk about Leslie Silva and her breakfast sandwiches, shall we? This is most recently in the New York Times. Let's take a look.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

All right.

[Phil Murphy]

All right.

[Hassan]

Leslie Silva, a hospital technician from New Jersey. She probably voted for you, Governor. Said that she didn't like the idea of drivers having to pay New York City's new congestion pricing toll. But on a recent morning, she saved enough time on her own commute by bus into midtown Manhattan that she stopped for a bacon, egg and cheese, bless her heart. Man, I don't even eat swine. And I am so happy.

[Phil Murphy]

I am happy for Leslie. I, I, I hope it continues. By the way, the data would suggest in London that it won't. I hope that the data is wrong for New York. I want a fair deal. That's all I want is a fair deal.

[Hassan]

Okay, let's talk about something a little bit less controversial.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

Immigration. Okay. I don't know if you saw this, but U.S. attorney Alina Haba was going off on you on Hannity. Let's take a look.

[Alina Haba]

And I am unfortunately going to announce on your show tonight, Sean. And I want it to be a warning for everybody that I have instructed my office today to open an investigation into Governor Murphy. Pam Bondi has made it clear, and so has our president, that we are to take all criminal, violent criminals and criminals out of this country and to completely enforce federal law. And anybody who does get in that way, in the way of what we are doing, which is not political, it is simply against crime, will be charged in the state of New Jersey for obstruction, for concealment, and I will come after them hard.

[Hassan]

Holy shit.

[Phil Murphy]

I had missed my hannity that night. So I did not see that live.

[Hassan]

If you didn't see this, well, I saw it for you and we recorded it.

[Phil Murphy]

Yep.

[Hassan]

And I just want to let you know this is a warning for everybody. Me, you, Burger King employees, Reese Witherspoon. If you are harboring illegal immigrants, they will come after you hard. You are going to jail. How serious you taking that warning?

[Phil Murphy]

You take everything seriously. I've not had any engagement. And this is something you won't be surprised that we. We wouldn't comment on either way. The U.S. attorney is a Jersey gal, so that's. And she's got a very good life story. I've heard nothing since then. I would just say that we cooperate with the feds on immigration matters all the time. Literally all the time. We have something in place since 2018 called the Immigrant Trust Directive. And what it does is it untangles the wire between immigration matters and criminal matters. New Jersey is the safest state in America based on a whole bunch of metrics.

[Hassan]

And that Immigrant Trust Directive, just. Just for people to be specific, it. It specifically bars local cops from basically harassing the Latino community. Correct. But it still allows the police to work with ice.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, I.

[Hassan]

To.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes. On the. On the latter, I'd say the former a little bit differently.

[Hassan]

Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

If you've committed a crime, we're coming at you. And we don't care about your immigrant status, period. If you haven't committed a crime, that's not our job. There are folks who do that for a living. We don't stand in their way, but that's not our job. The magic of this. And by the way, this has been upheld in court over the years, including by at least one Trump appointed judge. Here's the magic. Let's say I'm a criminal. Let's say your status is unclear in terms of immigration. You are not held responsible if you approach a member of law enforcement and say, hey, I know Murphy robbed a bank. In other words, you don't worry about your immigration status when you walk up to that member of law Enforcement.

[Hassan]

Got it.

[Phil Murphy]

It's one of the big elements of why we are the safest state in America. Because you feel completely unencumbered to walk up to that police officer and say, murphy's your guy. That's a huge element in why we're as safe as we are.

[Hassan]

On some level. Do you see the Alina Haba thing and break this down for me as kind of a dog whistle? A little bit of it paints every immigrant in that way of like, hey, this person that you see with some shade of melanin that you may not recognize or be comfortable with is a criminal in some way. That, that's the, the, that's the signal I'm getting from that we just played.

[Phil Murphy]

I mean, I, I certainly hope that's not true. I mean, I, I hope this is about criminals. Who's going to stand in the way of somebody who's committed a serious crime and they're being asked to leave the country, or maybe someone whose asylum case has been adjudicated negatively and they're still here. There's not going to be a lot of support to, hey, though, we want to keep that person here. I would hope that this is directed at folks who should not be here, as opposed to the broad swath of our communities. I would also hope it's nonpartisan, as the US Attorney's office has historically been been. We are a nation of immigrants, and there's no state in America that speaks to that more loudly than New Jersey. You know, we wear that as a badge of honor. We are literally, I think, the most diverse state in America.

[Hassan]

You.

[Phil Murphy]

So we care about that a lot.

[Hassan]

You have been surprisingly, in comparison to other Democratic members of the party, you have been surprisingly, been able to pull off a career where you have not been particularly combative with President Donald Trump.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes and no.

[Hassan]

What has been your secret to the art of the deal?

[Phil Murphy]

You have to pick your lanes. There's going to be some stuff where we can find common ground. Recently, we've had a lot of problems at Newark Airport. The FAA is understaffed and underinvested. We've found common ground with the Trump team to try to force a better future of the faa. More bodies, better technology over here. We're going to fight like hell if innocent individuals or communities are attacked, if our basic rights and freedoms are attacked, we're going to respond, and we'll respond aggressively. We did that in the first Trump administration. We're doing so now. Typically, that's a little bit of bully pulpit. It's a lot of legal action via our attorney general. Birthright citizenship, as an example, is a collection of states, as many of these suits are. We're leading that. We feel passionately that that's part of who we are as a nation.

[Hassan]

Got it. And even if the administration feels differently about it, you're like, I'm willing to disagree with you.

[Phil Murphy]

You have to, you have to stick to your core principles. Stick to the backs and having the backs of the innocent who are being attacked needlessly. Stick to the Constitution.

[Hassan]

Has that always been your, your political strategy or even the strategy that you've had in your career, even pre politics?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, I think it has been. You got to find common ground over here and, and don't turn your back.

[Hassan]

You pull. You pulled an opposite. Chris. Of Chris Christie. You're the, you're the.

[Phil Murphy]

I'm not sure.

[Hassan]

Antithesis. No, because. Because Chris Christie is very.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

Monday Night Football, the two helmets colliding when it comes to the drum.

[Phil Murphy]

I guess that's right.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

We're. We're that, by the way, as well, if we need to be. But we're trying to get that balanced. And it's hard these days. These are very. I would be lying to you if I didn't say these are hard times. These are trying that balance.

[Hassan]

Yep.

[Phil Murphy]

Right.

[Hassan]

So let's talk about tariffs. Right. That's. That's an example of a policy issue that has. Everybody has an opinion on. How are the tariffs hitting New Jersey?

[Phil Murphy]

They're hitting no state positively. They're probably hitting New Jersey less severely than they would, say, a Michigan. We used to make cars, trucks, chemicals in New Jersey. We don't any longer. I wish we did. We've got a booming innovation economy. That's where we make our meal. But they'll hit every state. It's important, I think, for folks to realize that on this one. And there are a couple of examples of this with President Trump. His principle or his objective is not, in my opinion, the issue, it's the execution toward that objective. I'll give you an example. What we're doing in New Jersey, we're trying to shepherd a $500 million incentive through our legislature. I give them a lot of credit for being great partners to incent multinationals to make stuff in New Jersey. That, to me, is not to pat myself on the back, but that's smart. It's strategic. It's giving them a carrot to come in to make stuff and create jobs in New Jersey. I love that. As opposed to punitive and inflationary steps, which I believe is the wrong way to approach the same objective.

[Hassan]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Hassan]

So in 2024, New Jersey had a redshift, right?

[Phil Murphy]

Yep.

[Hassan]

In 2020, Biden carried New Jersey by about 16 points. This time Kamala won by less than 6. A lot of that happened in largely Latino areas. What do you think was at the root of this and do you think anything has changed since the election?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, so I do. The answer on that last one is very much so. But so New Jersey, New York, Illinois, Maryland, California, I believe each had plus or minus a 10 point shift similar to the one we had. So it was a big blue state reality. I think it was Donald Trump. I think it was the moment in time as opposed to is this a big red shift? I say that among other things, he won one of our counties up North Passaic county, but there were four candidates on the county level, Democrats, all of one, handily. So I don't, I don't think it's a broad based swing. Having said that, there's a governor's race in New Jersey this year. We're taking this deadly seriously. The Republicans have been out registering the Democrats now for many, many months. Which is concerning, I do think, to your last question, have the events of the past 120 odd days impacted this? I think the answer is yes. When I ran for the first time in 2017, Donald Trump was president. In many respects we ran against what we thought at that time were policies inconsistent with who we are as a country. And we won handily. I think you're going to see some version of that. I do think it'll be closer. The Republicans, I think, will nominate somebody who's got good name recognition and they have run before and they're somewhat of a known commodity. The Democrats have a very spirited primary. Unclear as we sit here, who's gonna win that.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

But I think we'll have a really good candidate. It'll be a very good election. But I think on the margin the Democrats gonna be favored.

[Hassan]

And it sounds like you're looking ahead. And what's interesting is, you know, you know, Donald Trump. Donald Trump has called you a quote, terrific guy.

[Phil Murphy]

Yep.

[Hassan]

You visited him at one of his residences in New Jersey. What would you advise your Democratic colleagues on how they should engage with somebody that you have met with and clearly had some common ground with?

[Phil Murphy]

I do a version of what we're trying to do in government, which is acknowledge common ground and then be very clear about where There are differences, particularly as it relates to the economy and values. And I think there are some big differences on those two fronts. But also, don't be so piggish to ignore opportunities to get to work together. And I think that's a good government strategy, and I think it's a good political strategy.

[Hassan]

So these are the big legislative wins that you've had. Let's talk about sort of strategy and how constituents receive it. These are some Jersey wins that happened because of you. I think your staff's gonna love this. This is a shout out to you and their whole team.

[Phil Murphy]

They're all standing off camera here right now.

[Hassan]

Okay. Even though your state has shifted to the right, you've passed these very progressive pieces of legislation. Automatic voter registration. Awesome. Expanded paid family leave. Incredible. You legalized recreational marijuana. Dope who's not 420 friendly. You raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour. I mean, this is something I've been talking about for a very long time. I was shocked that minimum wage is not at 15. At 20 is the new 10, by the way, now.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah. And by the way, the federal rate is still 7 something which is deplorable.

[Hassan]

You've raised taxes on millionaires, you've expanded access to abortion, and you've strengthened gun control laws. Do you think any of that translated into votes, or has politics just basically become gas prices and vibes?

[Phil Murphy]

That's a good question. We don't govern by polling and we don't govern by politics. I could say that definitively.

[Hassan]

What do you mean by that?

[Phil Murphy]

If we think a certain step we're going to take is the right step, we're going to take it, regardless of what the political implications are. It so happens that the stuff you just read out, at least in New Jersey, are overwhelmingly well received and supported, but that's not necessarily why we do them. And again, we do. We've done some things, including finding alignment with President Trump, that have been very unpopular. But the fact of the matter is, my first responsibility is for the nine and a half million New Jerseyans who live there. But have they had a positive political impact? I'm sure not why we did them. We did them because all those steps were the right things to do for a whole variety of reasons, and I'm proud that we did them.

[Hassan]

So, Governor, you know, you have this position in leadership, and specifically being the governor of New Jersey, you have to communicate to your constituents and people and family members. People are very concerned about the current state of the world. I get this when I'm Walking around the streets of Manhattan, people what things are so crazy right now. They couldn't be. What do you tell people? What frame of mind do you give them when they feel this existential dread and concern about the current moment in the future?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, we have it around the kitchen table. We've got four kids in their 20s.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

Everybody's got an opinion. My wife is a outstanding first lady and public servant.

[Hassan]

Sure.

[Phil Murphy]

We have this at home. We have it on the streets. As you say, walking around, you feel it.

[Hassan]

Totally.

[Phil Murphy]

There's a level of discomfort.

[Hassan]

You talk to anybody on the street, everything's going to gov.

[Phil Murphy]

Yep.

[Hassan]

That's kind of the Emma.

[Phil Murphy]

Yep. I think number one is as governor, you've got to have a. I feel your pain. You've got to have empathy and sympathy with folks. Because I've got a myself. This is not unique to a certain band of people or a certain community. It's across the board. So feeling their pain. Secondly, do something. One of the things that really concerned me between election Day and about March, there wasn't much. This was like deer in the headlight time. I don't know if you felt that way. You had both the anxiety that you're referring to, but also sort of people freezing up and that was an awful combination that has probably for all the wrong reasons, begun to change meaningfully. People are mad as hell. Remember the movie network? Mad as hell. We're not going to take it anymore.

[Hassan]

Yeah, I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore.

[Phil Murphy]

And you're seeing it not just in America, you're seeing it in other places, Canada, Australia, even Germany, to some extent, where I served as our ambassador. You're seeing elections that say, wait a minute, this is not where we think the west should be going. This is not consistent with our values. You're beginning to see it domestically. A state Senate seat in Pennsylvania a month and a half ago in a big Trump district went the other way. I'm starting to get that vibe of 2018. You'll remember the midterms when President Trump was in his first term, went big for Democrats. But do something. Don't sit on your hands and believe. You got to believe that the Constitution holds right now. We've got to believe that our judiciary holds. I was hoping with the nominations for Cabinet and other steps, that the U.S. senate, where the Republicans have an advantage, I would hope. I was hoping you'd see some profiles encouraged on some of those votes. Yeah, we didn't see enough of that. I'm now hoping. And so far, knock on wood somewhere. Yeah, so far so good.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

But the story is yet to be completely told that the judiciary will hold and that the Trump administration will respect the judiciary. Those are both open questions right now. We have to do everything we can.

[Hassan]

And if those things don't hold, we descend into nihilism and chaos.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes, that's, that's a. The bad end.

[Hassan]

I'm going to finish with two very interesting details about you.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay.

[Hassan]

You've mentioned this several times in the conversation where you said you were an ambassador for Germany for many years. An ambassador to Germany. To Germany for many years. So I've had this question that I've thought about historically, which is, look, if any of you are a dad, become a dad or have a dad, you know that dads love World War I and World War II. And as a dad, I have two children. That itch has also been fascinating me. I've been going back to history and been thinking to myself, how the hell did Germany turn its entire reputation around? And is there something to learn there? Because the United States reputation around the world is kind of, eh, not so great. The more I travel, I find out people are kind of laughing at us. What did Germany do in your eyes, to make people. I literally see people on the street wearing a Germany, you bet soccer kit.

[Phil Murphy]

Let me go way back and start with the glass half empty part of the story. How did they go from a very civilized world leading society into the chaos of the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler and Holocaust in World War II?

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

That to me is a very relevant lesson that is out there right now for us. We all need to study the aftermath of World War I, the 20s and 30s, what led to the horror? My wife and I recently did the March for the Living in from Auschwitz to Birkenau. And you, you get that up, you get that in your face what this led to. So that's. I'll start with a glass half empty. Let's all go to school right now.

[Hassan]

Yes.

[Phil Murphy]

On how Germany unraveled. They had some, first of all, war, World War I awful lessons learned out of World War I aftermath completely the wrong lessons allowed Germany to rise again and to instigate World War II out of World War II. Thanks to statesmen, historians who understood the broad thrust of history. Conrad Adenauer in Germany, Harry Truman, George Marshall, as in the Marshall Plan, other statesmen like that, both in the Truman and Eisenhower administrations in Germany themselves, in fairness, got themselves back, dusted themselves off, rejected the past and said, you know, what we're in a different. We want to be part of the Western values, the Western society you've got right now. Not to end on a B flat, but you've got a very potent right wing party in Germany right now that has just missed getting into government. And they were just called out by the German security system as an extremist party. So far right, afd. Afd, the Alternative for Deutschland. Alternative for Deutschland. It was born, its name was born out of Angela Merkel who was moving her conservative Christian Democrats toward the middle of the political spectrum, which by the way, I personally support. But when she was asked, well, what about somebody who could come in to the right of us? And she said there is no alternative. It turns out there is, unfortunately. So the unraveling Post World War I through the 30s, we have to learn that lesson. Cold kudos and hats off to the great statesmen, largely men, some women, mostly statesmen in Germany first and foremost, but among the Allies, especially the United States, who got Germany to where they are today. And a blinking yellow caution light that, that extremism that we saw in the 20s is unfortunately rearing its head again.

[Hassan]

Okay, that's a. That was a great, almost like historical Wikipedia perspective.

[Phil Murphy]

Sorry to go on too.

[Hassan]

No, no, thank you for the PDF. Here's another fun fact about you, Governor, and I would love your analysis on this. So you worked at Goldman Sachs for 23 years.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes.

[Hassan]

Why do so many Goldman people end up in government?

[Phil Murphy]

That's crazy, right?

[Hassan]

Several alumni. Goldman alumni, they called it.

[Phil Murphy]

The nickname now is Government Sachs.

[Hassan]

They call it Government Sachs. Several alumni in the Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump administrations end up.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

Coming from Goldman Sachs.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

You guys are everywhere. And I do mean just guys. It's mainly just guys. The current Prime Minister of Canada, Central bank heads. What is it about Goldman that makes people want to get into government?

[Phil Murphy]

It's crazy, right? Something of the water, perhaps? No, I think it goes back many decades where you had leaders at Goldman Sachs who were also statesmen in their own right, whether literally or figuratively. Gus Levy is a giant in the history of Goldman. He was a big. He's the chairman of the Port Authority. He didn't become a governor or a prime minister, but there was an ethos of public service. John Whitehead, who was Ronald Reagan's deputy Secretary of State and one of my mentors. Secretary Fowler, former Treasury Secretary, was a partner of Goldman in the 60s. Bob Rubin, one of my mentors, was President Clinton's treasury secretary. You can go through the Jon Corzine one Of my predecessors as governor. I think it's sort of a. It sort of started way back when. And it's an unspoken. You need to. It's not written anywhere, but the sort of. It's in the air. You got to do your part for society.

[Hassan]

Do they hand you the Goldman book and they go, once you get all the money you need, the cold, hard, raw power.

[Phil Murphy]

Now, I've never seen that. And I. And I'm more of a glass half full of.

[Hassan]

Cause you guys got it all at that point. I mean, I got. I got cousins that work in banking. I mean, I mean, the Christmas bonuses. Are you kidding me?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

And that for you, 23 times.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

So at that point where you just like. It's got to be more. Because you got the West Hampton house, you got the Tribeca law.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

All the kids are in private school. The college is paid for. Are you just like. Man, I.

[Phil Murphy]

For me, it predates. I mean, Bob Rubin was incredibly important as a mentor to me, without question.

[Hassan]

Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

But it predates Goldman in my case. I grew up in a family. Middle class on a good day is the way I put it.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

My dad never graduated from high school. My mom did get a high school degree. She made sure the four of us got educated. He made sure we cared about politics, public service. So I give him a lot of the credit. Early on at the kitchen table, arguing about George Meaney, the head of the United Autoworkers, or Gene McCarthy, my older sister and my dad going back and forth. Bobby Kennedy, Gene McCarthy, Lyndon Johnson.

[Hassan]

So you were always interested in politics.

[Phil Murphy]

Yes.

[Hassan]

And political discourse was something that was happening at the kitchen table, but was also having. Were you guys having these debates on the trading floor? Like, was this a Goldman thing?

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, more of a night job thing. So I'll tell you the way I think Ruben, to his credit, really honed this. We all had big, important day jobs. You're focused, laser like. And you're not. You're not either terribly partisan or partisan at all. You're there. It's a for profit operation. But it was the night job, if you will. The. The hobby, the hosting a dinner for X candidate or y, senator or governor. That was sort of the M.O. that was certainly the M.O. that I pursued. And I'm happy I did. It gave great satisfaction. I loved the day job, but I also felt like there was an opportunity to give into the public service sort of lane, if you will. And I'm happy I did that.

[Hassan]

So here's where you and I are a little bit different people see me as a B minus, C plus level celebrity. Not to brag, but I am in the Thousands. And my IMDb star rating, I give.

[Phil Murphy]

You a much higher grade. I just want to get that off my chest.

[Hassan]

IMDb has rated me as such and the people have spoken.

[Phil Murphy]

Fake news. Better than that.

[Hassan]

But what celebrities have is just the power of comp tickets. I can get us comp tickets to go see Hamilton. Not the main cast, but the touring cast. But what you have, Governor, is the power of coercion. And I think that's what the banking class wants. You want to get in there and fucking change zoning laws.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, that's really where I don't see it quite that way.

[Hassan]

Really.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, I love because, because people say.

[Hassan]

Why don't the celebrities do. We can't do anything. We can't sign treaties, we can't pass legislation.

[Phil Murphy]

I want to make sure everyone gets the touring cast. Caveat to your tickets. I just, I just thought that was a moment of brilliance.

[Hassan]

Sure. Yeah. I tried to get main cast. They're like, you're not going to get tick gets Berlin.

[Phil Murphy]

Listen, I want to make New Jersey as good as it can be. And that's the whole reason I'm in this thing. That's, that's, that's, it's nine and a half million of us. Let's be as good as we can.

[Hassan]

Well, it's going to be a whole lot more, you know, you have the World cup coming next summer.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah. So are you the club World cup this summer?

[Hassan]

Yeah. And are you prepared for all those drunk Europeans to enter your state?

[Phil Murphy]

We are prepared, although we still have a lot of work to do. It's going to be, we think a million to 2 million people will visit the region. New York City's our co host. People say, why New York City? I say, well, we've got the stadium and they're New York City. It's a great combination. Eric Adams has been a great partner. It's going to be incredible. Eight matches including the World cup final and the club World cup this summer. Nine matches including both semis and the final, all of the above at MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey. Of course we're ready. I mean, by the way, the fact we've got the club cup this summer gives us a chance to take it around the track, if you will, on security, transportation, fan experience, etc. Very, very excited.

[Hassan]

Okay, so to end us out here, I am a 39 year old father of two. I am what the kids call washed. I would Argue I'm clean, not washed. But when you hit a certain age, you have to move to the burbs. You get three choices.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

You either move to Jersey, you move to Connecticut, or you move to Brooklyn.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah.

[Hassan]

Governor, convince me to move to New Jersey.

[Phil Murphy]

How old are your kids?

[Hassan]

My kids are seven and five.

[Phil Murphy]

Okay, so number one, without question, literally, this week just ranked the number one public education system in America. Number one, Jersey. That's the most important reason, I think. Top five health care state, top handful of quality of life. Great values, great convenience in terms of where we're located. Second to none on all the. All of that. Plus, we're Jersey. We've got the attitude, we've got the boss, we've got Jon Bon Jovi. We've got all the. We ooze with talent, we ooze with diversity. Got the biggest.

[Hassan]

All the guys you just named are white, but that's fine.

[Phil Murphy]

The biggest South Asian community outside of California.

[Hassan]

That is true. There you go.

[Phil Murphy]

In the country. And growing. I just got back from an economic mission to the Gulf, Shockingly, in the United Arab Emirates. 12 million people in total, 4.3 million Indian. We did a big Indian business council meeting. Jersey sells connects around the globe. We're second to none on all of the above. And I mentioned values in passing. If you care about LGBTQ voting rights, gun safety, the environment, I could go on. We're ahead of the class on all of that. Great place to raise a family. In fact, every state's got a bumper sticker. Ours is America's number one state to raise a family. That's Jersey.

[Hassan]

That's literally on the bumper sticker.

[Phil Murphy]

No, but that's. I. I view that you want that as bumper sticker.

[Hassan]

Okay, gotcha. Because a little bit too. It's a little too long for the bumper stickers.

[Phil Murphy]

I'm a Democrat, by the way, which is why it goes around the truck a little bit. I got you. But that's who we are. That's literally who we are.

[Hassan]

Okay.

[Phil Murphy]

By the way, Connecticut's a great state.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

Brooklyn is a great place. I think Connecticut and Jersey have more alike, including front yard backyard, than Brooklyn does. Sure love Brooklyn. But I think it's a different wrinkle, if you will. And we've had the second largest over the past five years. State to state migration in America. Number one has been New York to Florida. Number two is New York to Jersey. Some of it Covid. A lot of it due to the. The magnets that we have in place. None more important than education.

[Hassan]

I think the New York to Jersey one's going to stick. The New York to Florida. I'm like, you're not serious about it.

[Phil Murphy]

No, I, I think that's going to dry up. I really believe people go there. I mean, I understand they go in part if you're a senior because you're not going to have to deal with a brutal winter that you.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

In Jersey or New York or Connecticut. I get that.

[Hassan]

Yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

You have a lot of people who are not seniors still in the.

[Hassan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Murphy]

That are going there because there's no standing company.

[Hassan]

No, no, no. If you're in the final throws of the fourth quarter or the first or second overtime, it's time to go to Florida. But if you're in your 30s and you're either high on cocaine or trading crypto, you're not a serious person and you're moving to Florida, you're coming back.

[Phil Murphy]

I think you're coming. I think that's going to be a boomerang. And I hope the first group, by the way, we do a lot to keep them in Jersey. So we try. We don't give up on that. But that, that is at least a more rational debate to have with somebody.

[Hassan]

Well, Governor, thank you so much for your time. This is a lot of fun.

[Phil Murphy]

Can we go back to congestion prices?

[Hassan]

Let's do 20. Let's do 20 more minutes on it.

[Phil Murphy]

Great to be.

[Hassan]

This was really great. This was lovely. Thank you.

[Phil Murphy]

Thanks for having me.

[Hassan]

I'm going to run your pitch by my wife and thank you for welcoming our film to your. To your lovely stage.

[Phil Murphy]

Yeah, yeah, we love that, too. Your wife and your kids are best.

[Hassan]

Appreciate that.

[Phil Murphy]

Thanks, man.

[Hassan]

Cheers. Hurry right away.

[Phil Murphy]

No delay. Make your daddy glad. You have had such a bad.

[Hassan]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like Halle Berry on how to be a good partner during menopause or Mehdi Hassan on the dumbing down of media clips you won't hear anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium. Com. Don't miss out.