Is Nuking Iran an “Illegal Order?” - with Sen. Mark Kelly

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn’t Know
Episode: Is Nuking Iran an “Illegal Order?” – with Sen. Mark Kelly
Host: Hasan Minhaj
Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (AZ), former astronaut
Date: May 20, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into the intersection of military ethics, political leadership, and public skepticism in the nuclear age. Host Hasan Minhaj interviews U.S. Senator and former astronaut Mark Kelly, covering topics like illegal military orders, trust in government, America’s international standing, political violence, AI’s impact on jobs, and even space toilets—with Kelly’s signature candor and Minhaj’s sharp humor. The episode pivots around the hypothetical presidential order to launch a nuclear strike against Iran, Kelly’s controversial PSA to the military, and the broader question of American leadership at a time of deep cynicism and global uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Disobeying Illegal Orders & Trump’s Reactions

• Kelly’s PSA Controversy: Kelly discusses the public service announcement (PSA) advising military personnel to refuse illegal orders. The initiative stirs strong reactions, including from then-President Trump.
  • [13:27] "You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders." – Sen. Mark Kelly (from the PSA)
• Consequences: Within a day, Trump calls for Kelly’s "execution" on Truth Social, leading to threats and heightened security for Kelly.
  • [15:00] "No other president has ever called for the execution of a member of Congress. And by the way, for something we said that was lawful." – Sen. Mark Kelly

2. Military Decision-Making in the Nuclear Age

• Nuking Iran – Would it be an illegal order?
  • [22:13] Minhaj asks: "If the President made the call to nuke Iran, would you classify that right there as an illegal order?"
  • [24:31] Kelly: "Of course, that would be unlawful for him to do that… We don’t go and intentionally murder women and children in a conflict."
• Military Doctrine vs. Discretion: Kelly reflects on the chain of command, norm of following orders, and the critical importance of discernment, admitting he wasn’t "worried" Trump would actually launch but calls his threats "dangerous" and "detrimental to our alliances."
  • [25:29] "He has no strategy. His point? He doesn’t have a point. He just says dumb things, and he doesn’t understand the consequences." – Sen. Mark Kelly

3. America’s Eroding Trust, Skepticism, and Public Disillusionment

• Minhaj and Kelly analyze why Americans remain skeptical—even about verifiable events like the moon landing—blaming institutional failure and difficult scientific literacy.
  • [09:41] Minhaj: "For many Americans, it feels like [every institution] has failed us. Why would I believe [the moon landing]?"
• Kelly on Economics: The Senator traces much of the anger to economic malaise and inequality, noting how "hard work still pays off. It just pays off for somebody else." – [10:57]

4. Foreign Policy: Damage to Alliances and the Future of NATO

• Strained Alliances: Kelly recounts foreign leaders’ frustration, especially in Europe, with Trump-era America.
  • [33:10] "The kids in Greenland are now afraid of Americans… This relationship… has been damaged for a generation or two." – Sen. Mark Kelly
• The Case for NATO: Kelly solidly defends NATO’s existence as critical to global stability and U.S. interests, pushing back against advocates for a “multipolar world.”
  • [37:16] "To prevent [a multipolar world] it’s important that we hold NATO together and strengthen NATO… Why would you want to give that up?" – Sen. Mark Kelly

5. Domestic Politics: Participation and Apathy

• Voter Apathy: With plummeting approval ratings for both parties, Minhaj raises alarm about Americans choosing not to vote at all.
  • [45:13] "There is a third party… I'm staying my ass home." – Hasan Minhaj
• Kelly’s Response: The senator stresses how voting decisions tangibly affect daily life, tying voter motivation to worsening economic inequality.
  • [47:01] "People need to understand that who we put into these jobs affect their lives and they need to vote in their own best interest."

6. Technological Change and AI Policy

• AI Disruption: Kelly explains his “AI for America” plan, predicting 12 million job transitions due to AI by 2030, and advocates for industry-funded job training and infrastructural planning.
  • [48:55] "We got to figure out how this person who just lost their job can go into this job doing something else and then train them, give them the skills to do that job."
• Money in Politics: Kelly calls out the influence of AI and corporate money in politics, noting he is the only member of Congress with a total ban on corporate PAC money and with his assets in a blind trust.
  • [50:57] "We’ve got to get this corporate money out of our political system. If there is one thing I could do policy right now… it would be that."

7. Leadership, Groupthink, and “The NASA Mantra”

• Key Mantra: Kelly recounts a quote from NASA’s mission management team:
  • [54:55] "None of us is as dumb as all of us." – Sen. Mark Kelly
• Groupthink Dangers: He warns that leadership failure and a lack of honest dissent breed disastrous decisions, referencing both NASA and the Trump administration as templates (for good and bad).

8. Personal Stories & Memorable Moments

• Space Toilet Explanation: Hilarious and surprisingly detailed, Sen. Kelly explains in graphic terms how astronauts use the toilet in zero gravity, including the need for excellent aim and gloves.
  • [06:13] “You know, take a crap in space… More complicated. So the toilet holds all the solids in it. And because it’s zero gravity, even though there’s some suction… keeping the solids in the hole… You got a glove on, you got a mirror… sometimes you got to help it."
• Writing the “Last Letter” before Spaceflight: Kelly shares the emotional experience of drafting letters to family in case of his death.
  • [60:12] "To my children, it was like, you know, I'm sorry. You know, I took risks in my life... but also I knew that there was tremendous upside for our country. That's why I do this."

9. The Space Billionaires: Musk & Bezos

• Kelly on Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk’s space ventures:
  • [63:55] "What I give Jeff and Elon… tremendous credit for is they're pushing that industry and our ability to get to space forward… But… him being involved as the richest man in the world politically, bad for our country."

10. Call to Action: Chill Out & Fix What Matters

• A Repeated Refrain: Minhaj and Kelly agree that America desperately needs to "chill out" and refocus on fundamentals—education, democracy, technological adaptation, and getting money out of politics.
  • [26:09, 66:22] "I'm on Team Chill Out America. Let's chill out." – Hasan Minhaj

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "You must refuse illegal orders." — Kelly in PSA [13:32]
• "No other president has ever called for the execution of a member of Congress… for something that was lawful." — Kelly [15:00]
• "Of course, that would be unlawful for him to do that… We don't go and intentionally murder women and children in a conflict." — Kelly on nuclear strike [24:31]
• "He just says dumb things, and he doesn’t understand the consequences." — Kelly on Trump [25:29]
• "The kids in Greenland are now afraid of Americans…" — Kelly [33:10]
• "I'm on Team Chill Out America. Let's chill out." — Minhaj [26:09]
• "None of us is as dumb as all of us." — Kelly (NASA mantra) [54:55]
• "To my children, it was like, you know, I'm sorry… but also I knew that there was tremendous upside for our country." — Kelly on his “last letter” [60:12]

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Key Sections with Timestamps

• Illegal Orders PSA/Trump’s Reaction: [13:27–17:15]
• Nuclear Strike & Military Protocol: [21:51–25:54]
• Trust in Institutions/Economic Malaise: [09:00–12:16]
• International Reactions, NATO & Multipolarity: [32:47–40:45]
• Space Toilet Laughter: [05:22–08:22]
• Danger of Groupthink / NASA’s Mantra: [54:44–59:39]
• Personal Family Letters (Astronaut Days): [59:39–63:25]
• AI, Jobs & Political Donations: [47:37–51:29]
• Voter Apathy / Civic Responsibility: [45:13–47:37]
• Closing: Repairing Democracy & Education: [66:20–67:07]

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Takeaways

• Chill Out, America: Both Minhaj and Kelly plead for rationality, expertise, and restraint in American political and military conduct.
• Ethics and Law in the Military: Service members must prioritize legality and conscience even over presidential orders.
• Fix Democracy: The need for campaign finance reform, education, and trust-building is paramount for the future.
• Personal Courage and Clarity Matter: Whether in space or public service, integrity and preparation for the worst can make the difference between disaster and leadership.

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Final Note:
Senator Kelly—bringing astronaut rigor and moral seriousness—sparred playfully and profoundly with Hasan Minhaj, offering sobering insights on democracy, global leadership, and the dangers of unchecked power. If you need a primer on why competent, ethical government still matters—and why America needs to “chill out”—this episode delivers it with candor, humor, and hope.

Transcript

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Senator Mark Kelly]

I wasn't worried about Donald Trump, you know, under these circumstances, opening up the briefcase and saying, hey, I'm gonna actually eliminate this situation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I was. Because he says crazy all the time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Senator Mark Kelly is the fourth astronaut elected to Congress, and I'm surprised there's not more, because even if someone hates your politics, if you're an astronaut, Everyone has to admit three things. One, you're very smart. Two, you've done objectively cool shit. And three, you're not implicated in the Epstein and or Diddy files. Now, Senator Kelly was first elected to office in 2020, winning John McCain's vacant seat in Ariz. Then in 2022, he was reelected after running against the creepiest Republican candidate in history, Blake Masters.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Whisper Quiet. It's pretty cool.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, there are signs he may be considering a run for president in 2028. So I sat down with the senator to talk about his PSA to soldiers to disobey illegal orders and Trump's reaction to it.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Within a day, the President said I should be hanged and executed. Prosecuted.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How Europeans are reacting to Trump's latest moves.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

The kids in Greenland are now afraid of Americans.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Usually that's only for Iraqi or Afghani or brown children. But children of Greenland should not be afraid of the United States of America. And I got a very, very precise explanation of how to go number two in space.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Even though there's some suction, but keeping the solids in the hole, which we call the transfer tube. So you got a glove on, you got a mirror, has a camera on the bottom with a monitor.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is big stuff here, folks. So strap in and create an airtight seal between your seat and buttocks because it's gonna get messy. Great.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Hurry right away, no delay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Stop, Dick.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Make your daddy glad. You have had such a bad.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My two children. I have an 8 year old. I have a 6 year old obsessed with space.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Oh, good.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So my children gave me a few questions to ask you about space travel. May I ask you those questions?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Number one, how fast does a rocket go?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, it depends on the rocket, but the space shuttle went 17,500 miles an hour, which is 25 times the speed of sound. Takes about eight and a half minutes to get that fast, seven and a half million pounds of thrust. The rocket that just went around the moon, those guys went about 25,000 miles an hour, which is about 35 times the speed of sound. So it depends on the destination and you know where you're going. But low Earth orbit, where the space station is a little over 17,000 miles an hour.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is it scary to go up in a rocket?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Is it scary so you understand the risk you're taking. The space shuttle killed 14 people that flew on it two out of the 135 missions. It is operating at, like, extremes of pressure and temperature and parts. Turbo pumps are, you know, revolving at, you know, 36, 000 revolutions a minute. You make a mistake, everybody dies.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How do you pee in poop in space?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Very carefully. You pee into a tube.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

That has some vacuum. But the toilet is rather complicated. Right. So you have to turn the toilet on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Rather expensive toilet. I'm talking about the space station or space shuttle toilet. The only one I've ever used in space. So you got. You got. You got to turn it on. You pull the tube thing out of its holder, and if you have it in auto, the toilet will come on automatically. Create suction. You pee into the tube. Everybody has their own personal adapter for the end of it, men and women.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Same process.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You attach it to your genitals, and then this is the kind of USBC

[Senator Mark Kelly]

adapter key into it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes. You got your own personal wall.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Understood.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right. So, yeah. And then you clean it off. You put it away. Now to do the other thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You know, take a crap in space.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

More complicated. So the toilet holds all the solids in it. And because it's zero gravity, even though there's some suction, but keeping the solids in the hole, which we call the transfer tube that you have to aim through, is about that big.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So we're talking about just that. You got to aim at this big.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

A little less.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Smaller than this.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Like. Yeah, a little bigger.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right there. Now halfway between.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Halfway.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So you got to get good aim. So you have to know where to sit on the toilet. So to do that, we have a trainer. So get this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

We have a trainer in the building that has the simulator in it. Special room that is the toilet. Now, it's not functional. Has a camera on the bottom with a monitor so beforehand you can figure out how to align yourself on the toilet.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

This is a view of yourself you never thought you would see and you probably didn't expect I would get into this detail. I can go further, please, because we're

[Hasan Minhaj]

going to get into NATO and other things and AI later. But let's.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So then, because it's zero gravity.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You got to make sure the stuff gets in there. So you put on a Glo. Your feet go in a thing. You got these bars that go over your hips to keep you. To try to make a seal.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

But you can't make a great seal. So you got a glove on, you got a mirror to make sure stuff goes down that little tiny hole. And sometimes you got to help it. You got to just move it along in the right direction to get it to go there. And you have, like, a mirror to Put over here to see, see what's going on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you have to, you have to hand frack to get it moving.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Sometimes you get a. You gotta, you gotta do an assist. So the glow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you have any follow up questions on this? Is there anything I'm missing? Because this is a very interesting topic and it's actually quite.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well then here's the other thing. You don't wanna. Let me say one more, please. You don't really wanna look down there because it's not only your stuff, it's everybody else's, right? And it's, they're freeze dried and it's like they're, you know, it's zero gravity. So sometimes it looks like there's a party going on down there.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We're having this conversation in the wake of the Artemis 2 landing. As an American I felt very proud. But as an American, I also get most of my news from Complex News. And I saw some of the comments. I want to take a look at them with you as a retired astronaut. So one of the top comments right now is they never left. They're at Universal Studios. This is from 19. Now this is a father. He does drop off and pick up. He is an American citizen, you know, to vote in elections. No, this is just one of our fellow Americans. Okay, now that wasn't the only one. That's the top comment. There are dozens now. This one was big. This was from Big D. Epstein files were so bad they started World War III and then faked another moon mission. What does this indicate to you? What are you, what are you sensing here?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I think it says something about maybe where public education has gone in this country, which is something I'm like fighting to try to fix. And you know, we used to have one of the best public education systems in the world. But I think it's a couple things, right? Maybe it's a little bit of that. Maybe people aren't getting their information from the right place. But I think people like to be skeptical about things. And some level of skepticism is not like necessarily a bad thing. I'm somebody who really believes in science and data and facts.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My theory number one, is for the American public in these comments on at Complex is that every institution over the past few decades, for many Americans, it feels like it has failed us. Education has failed us. Infrastructure has failed us. The executive branch has failed us. These are things that people genuinely feel. When has the government. Health care is another one. When has the government come in and made my life better? Better? And because of these Institutional failures. Why would I believe this? What do you say to that feeling?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I say, you know, I understand why people feel the government has failed them and they can't afford their health care.

[Hasan Minhaj]

They're kicked off of their education.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Price went up. Half of Americans right now cannot afford food or having a hard time. They're having a hard time putting groceries on the table. Parents can. There's no hope of ever taking their family on a vacation and they can't afford childcare. Kids getting a crappier education than they were previously. So I understand why people are upset. Totally get it. And they should be. They have a right to be. The government's elected by the people to do good for the people of this country, to make us more prosperous and safer. And there are ways that we could have made that happen. Instead, you know, what happened is you get big corporations and the wealthiest Americans get to say, get the, the biggest say as to the direction of this country and what it's produced is a system that, you know, it used to be like when I was younger, when I was in my 20s, that hard work paid off. Here's the thing, hard work still pays off. It just pays off for somebody else.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Here's theory number two as to why those people think that was fake. Theory number two. Physics is hard. This is the equation for how to qualify work. I could show this to that comment section and ask them straight up physics or hieroglyphics and they may not know the difference. Yeah, King Tut's tomb. Did you learn this in high school?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Because this, Well, I mean, you could learn this in high school and not remember it as an adult. And there's no need to if your job has nothing to do with this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, but those guys look at that and they go, fake woke DEI agenda.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

To be honest, doesn't really bother me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why not? Why not?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Because most of Americans get it. Most of Americans with regards to, I think this stuff feel, you know, they're proud of our space program. They know we send people to space. They know no other country can do this in the world. There's always going to be a couple nuts out there. Doesn't bother me. What does bother me is, you know, when we wind up with people in powerful positions that make decisions for everybody that is not grounded in facts and data and science. That really bothers me because that impacts all of us. What these people say doesn't impact, I

[Hasan Minhaj]

mean, what you keep bringing this back to. And I think this could be the theme of our conversation, which is it Sounds like you are calling for a level of competency and discernment that you are not seeing. In November of last year, you were featured in a psa, but instead of telling people to not do drugs or to get their prostate checked, you told members of the military that they had a duty to disobey illegal orders. Let's take a look.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You must refuse illegal orders.

[Public Service Announcement Voice]

No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a

[Public Service Announcement Voice]

public servant, but whether you're serving in

[Hasan Minhaj]

the CIA, the army, or Navy, the

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Air Force, your vigilance is critical. I do have other shirts. I happen to be wearing this shirt.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

In that video. You didn't notice?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, I didn't notice?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

No, no, I got the same shirt on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was focusing on the red tie.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

No, it was a shirt.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wait a second, Senator.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And I have a. I have other shirts. Whoa, wait.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Senator, do you understand this is a very important question? This is a whole disobey illegal orders PSA analysis on my shirt, and then you went full tan France, and you're. You're. You're doing a sartorial analysis of what you're wearing.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

With all due respect, Senator, let's stay focused.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I should have wore the white shirt today if I knew you were going to play the video and remembered that I was wearing this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But you're really tapping into your vanity bag in a way that I. I want to stay focused here.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

All right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What we said was something that was, you know, basically follow the law. In the Uniform Code of Military justice, this is the law for the US Military, it actually says you do not follow illegal orders. When the orders and the law are in conflict, you follow the law. Every service member is trained on that. Now, when we said this, within a day, the President said I should be hanged, executed, prosecuted.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yep.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

This guy, all caps. All caps.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Seditious and punishable by death.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, how do you interpret that, Senator?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

How do I interpret the President?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. When you see that drop on Truth Social.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, the first time he's ever. Well, I mean, the way I found out about it, I was in the skiff, which is a secure facility, sitting there next to Alyssa Slotkin, and she gets a. A. A note, you know, that says something about, like, the President. And she walks out, and she comes back in, and it said on there, the President's called for your execution. And I saw it. I was sitting next to her. And then she gets up, walks out. Five minutes later she comes back in, she says, well, he called for your execution too. Like that's how we were notified.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was your George W. Bush kindergarten class. I'm reading to them. 911 moment.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah. No camera.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sitting in a briefing.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yep.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Someone comes in, by the way.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah. No cameras.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The camera, the. The President wants you dead.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes. Yeah. Which is never. I mean, people think, well, Donald Trump, he says stuff, right? No other president has ever called for the execution of a member of Congress. And by the way, for something we said that was lawful, for something that the Secretary of Defense Pete Hegg says said on TV multiple times.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

The exact same thing that people are trained on. President didn't like it. He thought maybe we're, you know, I mean we're, we're Democrats in the Senate. He's the Republican President. Our job is, is oversight and accountability. I'm on the Armed Services Committee and the Intelligence Committee. My job is to pay attention to these things. And was concerned that this president could do things that would step over that line. I mean, hey, he called for shooting protesters in the legs. American citizens in his first term in office. And then he was talking about sending troops to American cities so they can train on us civilians. I mean this is like, this stuff is crazy. So we thought this was like the right thing to do, is remind members of the military that hey, your, your responsibility is to follow the law, do not obey illegal orders, and we have your back.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Public Service Announcement Voice]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Now here's what's really fascinating. You have an identical twin brother. So is he catching strays for this? Well, he may be walking around Disneyland with his family and someone just may just come up to him and start screaming at him.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I mean, that's not happened to me. People come up to me and thank me for this every single day. I haven't had one single person. Now we get death threats. Like the number of death threats to me went up dramatically. People calling my office, sending in emails because of what the President said. I have to have security.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I mean, you saw the guy here. Two guys, three guys.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I have to have security for that. But actually, somebody coming up to me hasn't happened yet. Every single day they thank me, service members thank me, parents of service members repeatedly, you know, thank me for the message that we sent because it means something to them. It reminds them that, hey, there are people there in Washington that have powerful jobs that are serious and are looking out for their kids.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So we're talking about political violence. And a few months after the President posted about killing you, he posted about killing 93 million people on truth Social. A whole civilization will die tonight. Maybe something revolutionarily wonderful can happen. Who knows? Now I want to ask you something. If the President made the call to nuke Iran, would you classify that right there as an illegal order?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I mean, we have a policy, you know, in our country with regards to nuclear weapons. And we, we do, we do not have. We have never said. We haven't had a president to say, say that we don't have like a first use, non first use policy. Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What does that mean?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, whether you would use nuclear weapons against a country before they were used against us, obviously we know the history of World War II.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

How we got here, you know, right now, where we are in the world, you know, we have nuclear weapons to protect ourselves from other countries who have nuclear weapons. I would say that if this president or any other president under the circumstances were at today, I would hope that when the briefcase is opened up and he picks up the phone and calls StratCom that there would be, you know, some kind of serious discussion about like, what the fuck are we doing here? This is crazy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We had Annie Jacobson on the show and she said that Everybody in strap StratCom has been trained to not Flinch and to press the button.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

There's no room to refuse the command. You become the general in charge because you know how to follow orders. That's your job. That's how the military works. It's not like group think, you know, it's doctrine, you know. You know, I worry under the circumstances of this administration when I saw that. Yeah, perfectly honest with you. I know. And I'm. I'm always going to keep it real.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I, I did not. I, I wasn't worried about Donald Trump, you know, under these circumstances, opening up the briefcase and saying, hey, I'm going to actually eliminate this situation. Why? Says crazy all the time. He does. It's who he is. It's dangerous. It affects our relationships in the region. People look at us and say, what the hell has happened to the United States of America? It has diminished us, our NATO allies. I mean, those relationships are much weaker because of this president and who he is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Of course, that would be unlawful for him to do that. We. We have to have a higher standard as the United States of America, and we always have. We don't go and intentionally murder women and children in a conflict. So, yeah, that's disturbing. You know, I responded, you know, to this, this kind of language. It's not appropriate. I didn't think it was going to happen, you know, that day or actually, you know, any day. And I'm against this war against Iran. This was not well thought out. He went into this thing without a strategic goal, without a plan, without a timeline, without an exit strategy. And, you know, you think about, like, one side playing chess and the other side playing checkers. This guy, Donald Trump, is not even playing checkers. He's moving two of these red cups around on the, on the table.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, what do you think the strategy is here?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

He has no strategy. His point? He doesn't have a point. He just says. He just says dumb things, and he doesn't understand the consequences of doing that. And it harms us as a nation. It makes us less safe. And now the American people have to pay more for just about everything because of this president's bad decisions.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So how do you communicate this to the president or your fellow servicemen and women, which is. Look, I don't want to get partisan about this. Here's the team I'm on. I'm on Team Chill Out America. Let's chill out.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I'm on Team America, but I'm on Team like. We got to make decisions that, that are. It's in the best interest of all of us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But Everyone needs to chill out. New ideas.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Chill out.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Chill. President, chill.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Totally.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Nudity in season three of Euphoria. Chill, everyone. Can we just chill?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What's Euphoria?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Euphoria is on hbo. There's a lot of nudity in it, and it's too much. I'm a parent. I have two children. I don't know who the show is for, Senator, but don't watch it.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't watch it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please don't.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't have time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No. And don't spend your time doing it. But that's my thing. And if you want to. If you want to take me to the Hague and prosecute me, if you want to put me in front of the House Committee. Yeah, I'll testify. I'm on Team Chill Out.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Testify on Chilling out.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please tone it down.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Volume 100. Yep. Yeah. I mean, we don't need more of this. This is not. This is not helpful.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to. And then.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And then, like, how does he get out of this?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't. I don't.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Now, the strategic goal is to open the Strait of Hormuz. There's one person responsible for it being closed, and they're not on the other side of the planet. It's the actions that Donald Trump took.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, you've talked about this idea of no plan, right? You've said, quote, donald Trump went into this without a strategic plan, with no vision, with no goal, with no timeline and no exit strategy. Do any of these things matter if this whole thing was completely illegal?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, they all matter. I mean, that's how you wind up in a. In a place he's painted himself into a corner. I mean, if he had a well articulated goal in the beginning and he was able to get DOD to, you know, strategically approach that problem, and we're good. We're the best military in the world, tactically. We're really good at things. Strategically. In this case, this has been like a. Like a fiasco. You remember when this thing started, it was like, well, we have to go in there and bomb them, because if we bomb them, then the protesters will overthrow the government. A Khamenee, and get rid of him and get rid of all his people. And they'll either be dead, they'll go to Russia, and then we'll have a peaceful Iran with a leadership that we can work with. And maybe Donald Trump's thinking he can do some hotel deal. I don't know. I don't know what goes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You really thought he was going to do that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, he wants a government that he thinks he can work with. That's not how these things go. If you look at our history of getting involved in regime change and other countries, South Vietnam didn't go well. Cuba didn't go well. Iraq did not go well.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Over three.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Afghanistan for four.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Over four.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right. It does not go well.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Many.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So that was a flawed approach and a flawed goal. So yeah, there was no coherent strategy or plan. Then it became about nuclear weapons, which by the way, they said last summer they obliterated them. And I immediately said, based on what I know about doing this, I've dropped a lot of bombs on things. Really hard to completely destroy stuff. It's really challenging.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What does that mean?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, when you drop a bomb on a building, it's hard to like take out the whole building. You know, it's, it's hard to take, you know, take out things. This stuff was buried underground. And even with the massive ordinance penetrator rounds that we used, saying the whole thing is like destroyed, which he said over and over again. And the Secretary of Defense said, their nuclear program has been obliterated. It's a bunch of bullshit. And then it became recently, we have to get rid of their nuclear program. Well, if it was obliterated in June, why, why are you even mentioning it now? And it's obvious because it wasn't obliterated. So they were lying to the American people last summer and now they're in a, in a thing. If you want to try to get rid of this nuclear material, it's going to be really, really hard to do. And it's, it would likely cost the lives of more Americans.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So who do you think pulled him into this? Because he was famously known to be the anti war president.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't think Donald Trump.

[Hasan Minhaj]

At least that's what he campaigned on.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah, I don't think Donald Trump spends a lot of time like thinking a step or two or three ahead. I think he's kind of like a, you know, like a random number generator. I think he is a random decision generator. I think this guy forgets what he said last week about anything and he shows up, people say stuff to him. He says, I think that's a good idea, let's go do this. Let's go bomb another country without really having a goal and without thinking. And I know he was told that the outcome you could get here is you have the straight of Hormuz closed down. I've been through that straight number of times. I've fought in the first Gulf War. I was there beforehand with the Iranians threatening to shut down the Strait of Hormuz. It's rather easy to do. And now, where are we? They now realize because of the steps Donald Trump took that they have this strategic asset that they can use to their benefit to the detriment of every US Citizen and people around the world.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You've said the Secretary of Defense is the second most powerful position. Yeah, probably in the country. Right after the president.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yep.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, as a retired Navy captain, it must be wild seeing Pete Hegseth as the Secretary of Defense. And I see you smirking, because for comedians, that would be like watching Blippi host the Oscars. Like, I know who you are. I don't know if you fit Blippi with the orange classes. He does children's programming. What was your reaction when you saw this tweet back in December? Now you're a children's book author.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

The turtle.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes. So, Pete Hecseth tweets for your Christmas wish list. A classic Franklin story. Franklin targets narco terrorists. What was your reaction to this 29.3 million views?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

My reaction was that my Republican colleagues in the Senate should not have voted for this guy to be Secretary of Defense. That was my reaction when I saw that. And they should have known better, and many of them did, and they voted for him anyway because the administration put tremendous pressure on him.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You recently attended the Munich Security Conference and met with several foreign leaders. What do they make of all of this? Are they just like, hey, look, just call us in 2028. No, lose my number. No blocking you now.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

They're so I. I was over there. I met with a lot of prime ministers, deputy prime ministers, foreign ministers, defense ministers. They kind of hate us right now. They're not happy. And I'll tell you what, if you're the prime minister of Greenland and Denmark met with the two of them, they. The prime minister of Greenland told me that the kids in Greenland are now afraid of Americans. Afraid. Children are afraid of us. Yeah. Because of what this administration.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, that's why children in Greenland. Usually that's only for Iraqi or Afghani or brown children, but children of Greenland should not be afraid of the United States of America.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

It's. It's sad and it's. And it's not call me in 20 years. It's like this. This relationship with these countries has been damaged for a generation or two.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What do you tell them?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I said, what you're seeing is not America. And it's not even everybody in this administration. It's the president and a bunch of sycophants he put around him. That's it's not the American people. You know, most of the American.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do they believe what you're saying? And is the international community just holding the idea that just hold the plank until 2028?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, here's the problem. You know, we get to January 20th of 2029, we get a Democrat in the White House, we get these relationships back on track. I also don't necessarily think we need to get to the same place we were at. Maybe we could even get to a better place that's in our best interests but also helps them. And when our allies in the United States, when we all work together, that does really benefit us a lot. But here's the problem. They're going to be wondering who comes next. Do we wind up with somebody that's like Donald Trump again?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, they know that 77 million people voted for Donald Trump.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

That's right. So they're aware, they're concerned. Yeah, they get it. So that's the problem we have like right now and you know, over the next decade, okay. Is trying to convince them that what I said is, hey, the America that, you know, I mean these, we're still, I believe we're still a country with a moral compass and ethics and can be a good partner and we're stronger together than we are by ourselves. I think that's the worst thing that Donald Trump has done is he has damaged these relationships. So now we are stuck on an island all by ourselves. When he went calling after, you know, he screwed up in Iran here, started this thing with, as I said, with no goal or plan. And then he wants help. He wants help opening up the Strait of Hormuz, which by the way, is really hard to do because the way they keep this closed now is different than they did 30 years ago. If they wanted to do that, you know, then it was just like mines and boats. Now you can do it with a long range shahed drone coming from a thousand miles away. You hit one ship, nobody's going to want to go through there. So he went asking our NATO allies, give us some help. And they said, well, you didn't even talk to us before you started this thing. And by the way, you've talked about getting out of NATO, you talked about attacking a NATO country. Why are they going to come to our assistance?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm really glad that you brought up NATO. Can I ask you a question about NATO?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. First of all, this is a multi part question number one. Do you like ice cream?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't think I have ever in my life passed up an opportunity to have ice cream.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Question number two. Do you like Ben and Jerry's the best?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I think the best ice cream in the world is Cherry Garcia is not a sponsored post.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now I strongly disagree and I got a lot of heat for saying this. I think Cherry Garcia is horrible. I think really of, of cherry with dark chocolate. These two things shall not. Now I spoke to Ben Cohen who was the co founder of Ben and Jerry's recently. He is a longtime anti war activist and he said NATO should have been disbanded when the Soviet Union collapsed. And what China and Russia want is a multipolar and they would rather have that than total American military domination. What is your argument in support of why we need NATO?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I for the reason that Ben Cohn stated. Yeah. China and Russia want a multi polar world. To prevent that it's important that we hold NATO together and strengthen NATO. You know that prevents the US think things getting sideways with the Russians.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What's wrong with a multipolar. Let's all chill world.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I'll tell you so as an American, yes we since World War II, so for 80 years we have been very fortunate that we get to set a lot of the conditions and I strongly believe that we have done a lot of positive things in the world. We've supported other countries. We, we, we've, we stopped famine. You look what George W. Bush did with pepfar. We've saved people's lives. One of the benefits we also get from being the leader of the free world, NATO, our Asian allies, allies in the Gulf is we have benefited economically from having that as the conditions. Why would you want to give that up?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Humanitarian aid? Let me just say I don't want to hear take Senator super chill.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now oftentimes in discourse there's these two ideas which is in defense of America, this is for America's defense and then this is for America's interests. Now I'm going to be candid with you. The straight up Hormuz that we've been talking about, that sounds like it's more about America's interests in terms of Shell and Chevron and other companies. Sometimes these things get conflated. How do you navigate that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I think it's not just about Shell and Chevron and Exxon. It's about the plumber in Iowa who's got to put gas in his truck. And now he had a successful business and now the increase in gas prices are just eaten out as profits or small businesses manufacturing. President's Tariff policy, price of energy goes into everything manufactured in the United States, including. It hurts farmers and they have to raise their prices and then food prices go up. So it's not just about the big companies. And we have to do more to make sure that these big companies don't continue to extract an enormous amount of this country's wealth away from hard working people. But at the same time, that does affect people. So that is a strategic problem for us, you know, right now. But I want to get back to that multipolar world thing, please. So the Chinese would like, the Russians, Chinese would like a multipolar world right now. But especially the Chinese, their view is they will supplant us at some point. They have a 100 year strategy to become us. Right? To have a worldwide navy. You know, their navy is now stretching out into the Pacific. And you got to respect the ocean.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You got to respect that 100 year

[Senator Mark Kelly]

plan is they have 100 year plan. Yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wall street can't handle a bad quarter.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The Chinese are like, we'll eat shit.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And we're thinking for three generations in Congress, this dysfunctional Congress thinks like just weeks ahead or months or maybe we could do. But the Chinese defense, for a year,

[Hasan Minhaj]

they're taking, they go, Chuck Grassley, you're 90, add 10 years. That's how long our plan is.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

They, they want to become us. They want to control the conditions. They want to build the relationships to their benefit. What we've had for 80 years has benefited us as a nation. We got to figure out how to fix this before, I mean, before we, it goes completely sideways on us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now. How do you frame that? Say hypothetically, you're the Secretary of Defense. How do you frame this argument to say allies in African nations? If you're a country in Africa, you may not see a big difference between American dominance and Chinese dominance. How do you show them, hey, let us build your Silk Road, don't let them.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I would point them to other countries in Africa. Many of them have done deals with Chinese. And the Chinese government comes in there and say, hey, we're going to invest. We're going to build a port for you. You're going to own this port. You're going to have to pay us some money back here for this investment. And don't tell them that in the small print. When they get behind on their payments in repaying for this investment, they wind up with the Chinese owning the entire port. That has happened over and over again. Chinese government is ripping off these African countries left and Right. And building crappy infrastructure. We're a country of laws. They have recourse. They can even come to the United States if they feel they're getting a bad deal. They could come to the US Court system. So we are a much better partner than the Chinese anywhere you go in the world. I mean, a lot of these African countries and South American countries are now feeling burned by the Chinese. They're really good at giving other countries bad deals. We're a much better partner.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Chinese bad deal. Donald Trump, bad deal.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

As you know, I did not support this president. I did not vote for him.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know this.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And I worked hard to give him the choice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Look, hey, I've had Verizon, I've had att.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

My goal here is to win the election in November.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a multipolarity badness, you know. But there's got to be another way.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Again, I am on Team America here. I'm fighting for the future of this country. We're going to get rid of this, this guy here eventually. Two and a half years.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, can we talk about that? Well, that's great. Let's segue into the downfall of authoritarianism.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Fighting authoritarianism. Did you hear about what happened in Hungary?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All right. We're talking about a week after Viktor Orban was defeated in Hungary. What impact do you think that will have on Europe and this whole right wing nationalist movement happening around the world?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, what I hope happens is that in other countries that there are candidates that are supporters of democracy that can run really good campaigns, get the attention of the people and win despite forces that are working against them. In this case, Orban, you know, state run media, he wouldn't let his opponent go on tv, took other steps to try to change the outcome of an election. He won by a lot. When candidates win by a lot, much harder to take it away from them. The Hungarians, you know, figured out that Viktor Orban was not a good Leader. And despite J.D. vance going over there on stage and rallying for Orban and Donald Trump thinking, I'm going to endorse this guy, it's going to get him across the finish line. He lost bigly as Donald Trump, as Donald Trump says.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Look, we have an upcoming midterm here, okay. President Trump's approval rating is at an all time low. It's at about 41% right now.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

35, I checked the other day. 35, 35, 31. On the economy right now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now let's not get too cocky here. The Democrats approval rating is 36%. So there is a third party that's running here. That third party is. I'm staying my ass home. By the way, Senator, you can have your team look into this. Go to at complex and at complex news filled. Stay in my ass home.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Okay?

[Hasan Minhaj]

The Democratic party, the Republican party, the political establishment at large has the same problem the movie business has. You need to encourage people on that Tuesday to get up, leave their house and participate in democracy. Senator, what I'm saying is the Democratic party and the Republican party has to. Christopher Nolan, the American public. You need to blow my mind. What are you guys gonna do to get people out? Because are you taking the threat of people saying, eff it, I'm staying home as seriously as you should?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I think we're. Yes. I mean we unders. I understand that we run the risk of people just checking out, but let me start by saying this is not a movie. I get the movie analogy. You know, they can't put the butts in the seats. That's a problem. That's fiction. This is like people's real lives. This affects their future. I just took my daughter, who's 30, to see the house that she lived in when she was born. We moved when she was one and a half. When I went to be an astronaut, it was by the Navy base I was stationed at. 4 bedroom house, good neighborhood, end of a cul de sac. We went in there, knocked on the door. The guy that I sold the house to was still there, you know, 30 years later. And she walked around the house. My grandkid was there, my son in law, we get in the car and she says to me, dad, I don't understand like what happened. Like you were a lieutenant in the Navy and you could afford that house.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, wow.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

In that neighborhood. I mean, she was, she was shocked.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And I had to explain to her, yeah, the, the government like really screwed this up and Sure. I mean billionaires can buy two and three yachts and buy another airplane, by the way, on a one year depreciation cycle. Fully depreciated in Donald Trump's bill. And young people can't afford rent. Forget about the house. They can't afford to pay rent.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So people need to understand that who we put into these jobs affect their lives and they need to vote in their. In their own best interest.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to talk about AI because that's something that you're very passionate about. You released a policy roadmap called AI for America which said we could see 12 million job transitions by 2030. Here's my question. Of those 12 million Americans that are going to get shit canned, how do we ensure that they don't all become YouTubers and we actually get them real jobs where they can provide for their family?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So that's what's in my plan here. And it's called AI for America. AI Horizon Fund. We're working to get this into legislation and get it passed. And what that means is, like, right now, the range of possibilities for how this can turn out is really wide. Right. We have all these AI companies.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

That are trying to make money. Right. They're trying to develop products that people will buy. We'll see how they pay for all this stuff someday. Companies are making decisions on how they. How they use AI right now. We do know that there's going to be some disruption here. We got to figure out how to get from, like, this range of possibilities to a future where this benefits working Americans and where the benefit just doesn't go to a bunch more rich people and big companies where the American people benefit. So here's what we do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

So, you know, first of all, we're going to have to get these companies to contribute into finding the solutions to the big problems here. So what that means is they support a fund that supports things like job training. There are jobs available. Even though we have pretty relatively higher unemployment now, especially for young people, there are jobs out there. You got to figure out how this person who just lost their job can go into this job doing something else and then train them, give them the skills to do that job. At the same time, we can't let utility rates skyrocket for American families, but especially people like, on fixed incomes and small businesses that are just trying to get by. So we got to build the infrastructure necessary, the power infrastructure necessary to make sure that there is enough energy available. You know, to some extent, this is supply and demand, right? Sure. You know, demand goes up, supply doesn't go up, prices go up. So I have a plan, you know, to do this to get us to the right point, the right end point at the right time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Here's where things get murky. You have a new burgeoning technology that also meets policy and politics. AI companies spent at least $83 million on federal elections last year. And that money will keep flowing into the midterms coming up in 2028. Now, how can voters trust Democrats to protect them from AI companies when they're also accepting money from them?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I don't take any corporate PAC money. I am the only person in Congress that doesn't Take corporate PAC money that has a public schedule so people know what I am doing in this job and that has my money in a blind trust. I don't trade stocks. So of 535 members of Congress, I'm the only one that applies that standard. We've got to get this corporate money out of our political system. If there is one thing I could do policy right now and snap my fingers and it would change, it would

[Hasan Minhaj]

be that Citizens United.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Citizens United. And just get it all, all the corporate money out. Because that would allow us to fix so many problems. There'd be more bipartisanship. Get that? Fix that. My predecessor, John McCain took some positive steps in that direction. With McCain, Feingold got unwound, I think largely because of the efforts of Mitch McConnell over a couple decades. If we could fix that problem, we could solve many others.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, I'm not here to put you on the spot, Senator, but we recently had Rahm Emanuel on the podcast. He said he may be considering running for president. Kamala Harris recently said she may be considering running for president. Senator Mark Kelly, you going for the ring?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I haven't decided. I'll decide at the appropriate time here. It's something I have considered. I think we need the right person at the right time. I've got a different kind of background than most of the people in this job. You know, like you. Science, data, facts, no bullshit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Senator Mark Kelly]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

You have a mantra which is posted. I have a mantra on a wall at NASA in a room used by the mission management team. Oh yeah, what's that quote?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

None of us is as dumb as all of us. Is that what you're talking about?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes. Now, on one hand, I had to read that back three times. Yeah, and again, as a poli sci major, that is again, highly disappointing because it sounds the first time you read it, it sounds like you're trolling us. But repeat that back to me. None of us.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

None of us is as dumb as all of us. And what that means is a group of people like a bunch of knuckleheads in Washington D.C. can make bad decisions. Like, it's not like this thing called like group think can set in and a team of people could go off in a direction that sometimes maybe not even a single individual on that team would have gone in if it was their job to make the decision on their own. Now, having said that, I think it's always Important to try to collaborate. And you want leaders that will accept when people that work for them will tell them they're full of shit. You want somebody to be able to accept, okay, I got that wrong. That was a bad idea. That's not the current president. Right. He put a bunch of sycophants around him, a bunch of yes people to tell him what he wants to hear. That is a recipe for disaster. But at the same time, I think you also need to be aware that the team together can make a bad decision. That's what that means on that. That's the, that's in the mission management team room where the team has to come together to make very technical decisions. When we have people in space.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right. Well, what I think is beautiful about that is it is an acknowledgment that the hard physics, reality and science of what we're. We're sending a rocket filled with people into space. If this goes. If anything goes wrong, people die. It requires a level of rigor to say, hey, if you're going to be a pedantic nitpicker, you should, because the tail risk of us going wrong means everyone dies. How do you incept this mantra into maga?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't think you get that into MAGA at all. I don't. I think, you know, I think maga's. Maga, whatever you want to call it, falling apart. I think MAG is Donald Trump. He said it himself. And it is we, you know, we to some extent, right? It's falling apart. He's losing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I have no idea.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

You know, he's losing. Like, you know, some of his former supporters, Tucker Carlson and others are going off on their own. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, not happy with this president. President turned against her. She turned against him. You know, I think she finally realizes who this guy is and what he stands for. And it's not what she stands for. And I disagree with so many. Her on so many things.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And however, I mean, this, the MAGA thing is Donald Trump. And there's going to be a certain percentage of them that no matter what this president says or does, they will support him. That's not consistent with any kind of, you know, values that I've had or the way any team that I've ever led. The way I do my job is. I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, you know, of Donald Trump, but it is. It's on another planet. You know, the way that I tried to, you know, manage my office in the Senate, the way I, when I was the commander of the space shuttle. You know, I would require my crew members to disagree with my decisions. Like, I do not want to hear from you what you think. My view on this subject is you got to give your own opinion, and it's different than mine. And if it turns out that I had it wrong and I'm full of shit, perfectly fine with that, we'll do it a different way, especially if it affected safety and mission success. President of the United States. No matter who he is, almost every decision this guy has to make is about safety and mission success, the success of our country. So, you know, that's why, you know, what I see in him is a man who lacks every leadership quality that I've ever held to be important in any leader. After 25 years in the Navy, I've never seen any leader that lacks so much of those qualities.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, you're talking about something that's, I think, really important here, which is. And it's a foundational element of leadership, which is moral clarity and what matters to you. I want to end our conversation with something that I. I thought was really, really cool, and I'd love for you to share it with our audience. Before your final space mission that you took in 2011, you wrote a letter to be opened in the event of your demise. If you don't mind me asking, Senator, what did you write in that letter?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, wrote one to my wife, Gabby, one each to my two children, Claudia and Claire, and one to my brother. My brothers was rather, like, matter of fact, short. Also an astronaut.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Hey, here's what I need you to do. If you're. If you're reading this, I'm dead.

[Hasan Minhaj]

They get the trash on Tuesday.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

We can get over it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. Yeah.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah. Have a party, you know, make sure there's enough food and beer. Wow. You know, that kind of thing, really.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then your twin brother. We cool, bro.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

And then. Then went into, like, what I need him to do to help my kids. Right. And help Gabby. You know, Gabby had been shot in the head in January. I flew in space in May. You know, to my children, it was like, you know, I'm sorry. You know, I took risks in my life, and I knew these were real risks, but also I knew that there was tremendous upside for our country. You know, that's why I do this. You know, I risked my life flying in combat, flying on a spaceship, because I see there is tremendous benefit for all of us. And I'm sorry it didn't, you know, work out. And I'm not going to be there for you. But you're tough kids, you know, you're going to grow up and be successful and there'll be people to help you. And then the same, same thing to, you know, my wife, you know, who nearly died, nearly assassinated serving, you know, her constituents as a member of Congress, but also understood public service and the different kinds of public service, you know, she was a member of Congress. I was a pilot and an astronaut, by the way. I never thought I would become a U.S. senator, you know, even after I got back from space successfully, sometimes I think to myself, if I was the person who would have been injured, would she have become an astronaut?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

She probably, she says, yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Really?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Very, very forceful. Despite having a degree in urban planning. She could plan the, you know, Elon Musk's city on Mars. Yeah. So I, you know, it's, those are hard letters to write.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What did you, you know, I have two kids as well.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What did you leave them? Any nuggets of wisdom or any advice on what life is about or how they should live?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Oh, it's a long time ago, right? 15 years ago. My daughters were 16 and 14. Teenagers. Yeah, at the time they were teenagers. I think I did, but I can't remember what it was.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do they have the letters?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

No, I have the letters. I still have them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You don't want them to open it?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I haven't given a lot of thought. My daughters know those letters exist.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You should for sure have them open. Yeah, I'm saying this.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

They're now 30, they're now 31 and 28.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Totally. I, I, I would die to get any, anything like that, any, any sort of written letter from my father in that way.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I'll think about it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think you should. I think it'd be a great gift.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

They'll probably watch this. If you include this, they'll come to me and say, dad, give me the letter.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You have permission to ask him for the letter. I'd get the letter. Last question. Speaking of space, does it piss you off when Jeff Bezos puts on a cowboy hat and is like, woo, I'm an astronaut?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

No. Why? I mean, there's obviously a difference. I mean, these guys go straight up, they come straight down, it's a two minute flight. What I give Jeff and Elon and others tremendous credit for is they're pushing that industry and our ability to get to space forward and they're doing it less expensively, especially SpaceX. I've always had this. Not always. A year ago I went to Ukraine. Elon, who I sort of knew a little bit. Not really well. I used to do a little consulting for SpaceX. So occasionally I would be in a meeting with them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You go to Boca Chica, you were out there?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

No, I was never. I've never been there. I need to go. But anyway, I. So Elon. I go to Ukraine. Elon calls me a traitor. Then I called him an asshole. Sold my Tesla. But having said that, like. So we have a little bit of a personal. Personal thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Personal.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I always try to give him a ton of credit because he has transformed this industry in a positive way and is. It's been a huge service to our country. You know, I separate the political stuff. I think him being involved as the richest man in the world politically bad for our country. He shouldn't do it. I also think it's bad for his companies to do that. But from a engineering perspective, he's done a lot for us, so I always give him credit. Same thing with Bezos. What he's trying to do with Blue Origin. Flew his new Glenn rocket the first time. They got another flight coming up. And both of these companies are critical if we want to put people on the surface of the moon.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How do you get that message to them? Thank you for moving civilization forward when it comes to space travel. Less expensively but more obnoxiously.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I don't feel like it's my job to get it to them. I just try to keep it real. Try to be honest, try to keep the partisanship and the politics out of things. I could be pretty hard on Donald Trump. There's a reason for that, because I really think he's taking our country in the wrong direction. And when Elon does stuff that I think is bad for our country, I'm going to call him out on it. When he does things that are really good for our country, which he has multiple times, I'll be the first one to give him credit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hey, you know, this is where we are. We're agreeing. By the way, Senator, all roads lead back to. Chill out. Get back into the textbooks.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yep, that's right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All roads lead back to that.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because, by the way, yes, Elon made it less expensive, but the moment his brain gets fried on Twitter, he starts buying elections for a quarter of a billion dollars.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Bad. Yeah, that's bad news for us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Get back to mitosis.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Krebs cycle.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Get the money out of politics. Fix public education. I'm working really hard on that right now. They're trying to make it worse, you know, sending all this, like you get a tax credit. Money goes to private schools, public schools. Public schools get hurt. Poor kids get crappy educations. I, I was one of those kids. I mean, my parents were both police officers. We didn't have a lot of money. I benefited from a really good public school system.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Same. So, Senator Mark Kelly, thank you so much for joining us.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

A lot of fun being on your show.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It was a really, really great conversation. Thank you.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Have you subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet? You can listen completely ad free and get access to exclusive bonus content you won't hear anywhere else. Like my discussion with Malala on how therapy changed her life. Or my convo with Mel Robbins on how her let them theory applies to parenting. Tap. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to sign up on any app that's lemonadapremium.com.