Rahm Emanuel on How to Divide Republicans

Summary

Podcast Summary: Rahm Emanuel on How to Divide Republicans

Podcast Information:

• Title: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
• Host/Author: 186k Films
• Episode Title: Rahm Emanuel on How to Divide Republicans
• Release Date: June 18, 2025

Hosts:

• Nicole Wallace: Renowned journalist from MSNBC, known for her in-depth political analyses.

Guest:

• Rahm Emanuel: Two-time Mayor of Chicago, former White House Chief of Staff under President Obama, former Ambassador to Japan, and seasoned Democratic strategist.

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Introduction and Background

The episode features a candid conversation between Nicole Wallace and Rahm Emanuel, delving deep into the current political landscape, particularly focusing on strategies to weaken the Republican Party from within. Rahm, with his extensive experience in various political roles, provides insightful analysis on the fractures within the GOP and how Democrats can leverage these divisions.

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Rahm Emanuel’s Political Ambitions

Discussion Points:

• Rahm Emanuel addresses rumors about his potential presidential run.
• Emphasizes his continued commitment to public service without committing to a candidacy.

Notable Quote:

“If I told you I did, I'd be lying. If I told you I wasn't thinking about it, I'd be lying.”
[03:40]

---

The State of the Democratic Party

Discussion Points:

• Emanuel reflects on the criticism of being a "career politician" and acknowledges systemic issues that have alienated voters.
• Discusses the erosion of trust in political institutions and the need for Democrats to regain this trust.

Notable Quote:

“I do think part of our politics should be about earning their trust back.”
[05:40]

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Analyzing Donald Trump’s Impact

Discussion Points:

• Rahm provides a succinct critique of former President Donald Trump’s policies and actions.
• Highlights Trump's divisive rhetoric and its effect on both internal GOP dynamics and broader political discourse.

Notable Quotes:

“Tariffs? Wrongheaded.”
[06:08]

“Birthright citizenship? Give me a break.”
[06:30]

“He makes so much noise, it's impossible.”
[10:30]

---

Immigration: A Divisive Issue

Discussion Points:

• Emanuel delves into the complexities of immigration policy, contrasting Trump's hardline stance with the need for comprehensive reform.
• Explains how the broken immigration system since the 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli bill continues to create challenges.

Notable Quote:

“The system is broken and fundamentally not reflective of where the world is today.”
[08:09]

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Strategies to Divide the Republican Party

Discussion Points:

• Rahm outlines the internal divisions within the GOP, specifically between pro-immigration factions and hardliners like Steve Bannon.
• Suggests that Democrats can exploit these fractures to weaken Republican unity and appeal to moderate voters.

Notable Quote:

“I think there's more consensus on the Democratic side... It leaves Republicans fighting and killing each other.”
[09:19]

---

The American Dream and Economic Inequality

Discussion Points:

• Emanuel passionately discusses the declining accessibility of the American Dream, attributing it to systemic rigging favoring the elite.
• Identifies key moments over the past decades—such as the Iraq War, the 2008 financial crisis, and the COVID-19 pandemic—that have eroded public trust and economic stability.

Notable Quotes:

“The American dream has been unaffordable. It's inaccessible. And that should be unacceptable to us.”
[18:09]

“Those are the moments in which our politics...”
[22:07]

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Impact of Policy Decisions on Voter Sentiment

Discussion Points:

• Rahm critiques the extension of the Bush tax cuts during the Obama administration, labeling it a radicalizing moment that alienated many voters.
• Discusses how similar decisions have long-term effects on electoral outcomes, particularly in swing states like Ohio.

Notable Quote:

“I felt incensed about the extension of the Bush tax cuts during the Obama presidency. It was actually very Radicalizing and shocking to me.”
[23:42]

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Addressing Democratic Party Criticisms

Discussion Points:

• Emanuel responds to critiques from figures like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) regarding the Democratic Party’s focus on donors over working people.
• Acknowledges the partial truth in these criticisms but emphasizes the party’s commitment to core ideals and policy goals.

Notable Quote:

“The critique about the system, who's responsible and who gets the benefit of it, and that the system is rigged against everybody else is not wrong.”
[44:43]

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Future Electoral Strategies

Discussion Points:

• Rahm emphasizes the importance of recruiting candidates who resonate with swing voters in key districts.
• Advocates for a focus on policy issues that directly impact voters' lives, such as education, healthcare, and economic stability, rather than purely ideological battles.

Notable Quote:

“Are we moving forward? Are we sliding back? And I do actually think... that is the most important thing.”
[35:27]

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Conclusion: Bridging the Divide

Discussion Points:

• The conversation wraps up with Rahm reiterating the necessity for Democrats to position themselves as champions of the American Dream, offering tangible solutions to economic and social issues.
• He underscores the need for the party to balance order with progressive policies to appeal to a broad spectrum of voters.

Notable Quote:

“The system is rigged for the people at the C Suite and not only for them, for their kids. And that's exactly where you should point it, and rightfully so.”
[44:43]

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Final Thoughts: This episode offers a comprehensive look into Rahm Emanuel's perspectives on political strategy, the fractures within the Republican Party, and the challenges facing the Democratic Party in reclaiming the American Dream for all citizens. Emanuel's insights provide valuable guidance for navigating the complex landscape of modern American politics, emphasizing the need for strategic divisions within opposition parties and a steadfast commitment to equitable policies.

Transcript

[Erica Mahoney]

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[Nicole Wallace]

It'S Nicole Wallace from MSNBC. Listen to my new podcast called the Best People. I get to speak to some of the smartest, funniest, and wisest people I have ever encountered. People like Kara Swisher, Rachel Maddow, Doc Rivers, Jason Bateman, Jeff Daniels, and Sarah Jessica Parker. They'll often say, hey, Carrie.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, they'll call me Carrie. And that's all right, too.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. New episodes drop Mondays. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Lemonada.

[Nicole Wallace]

Rom. My question is this is.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think it's Ambassador to you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ambassador. Ambassador. Should I. Is formally. I should call you Ambassador.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I'm happy with Rahm. I just thought I was going to give you a shit, man.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ambassador. Ambassador. Ambassador.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I. I just wanted to throw a fastball.

[Nicole Wallace]

I will. I caught it. Call him Ambassador. Understood. Ambassador Rahm Emanuel has been a staple of the Democratic Party for decades. He was an advisor to President Clinton, a chief of staff to President Obama, a member of Congress, the mayor of Chicago, and most recently, the ambassador to Japan. Clearly an esteemed career, but for some, Ambassador Rahm Emanuel represents everything wrong with the current Democratic Party. He's been accused of being too cozy with big donors, taking part in the revolving door between Wall street and D.C. and letting police brutality go unpunished. So I sat down with Ambassador Rahm Emanuel to talk about where the Democrats need to go, whether he's the guy to take them there and to ask him the question I'm pretty sure he didn't expect. Did he create aoc? Hurry.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right away.

[Nicole Wallace]

No delays are there. Make your daddy glad you have had such a. I'm gonna start with the spiciest one right now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

What's that?

[Nicole Wallace]

Mr. Rahm Emanuel.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you running for president?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, we'll see. I, you know, look, my standard view is, first and foremost, I'm not done with public service, and it's. I'm hoping it's not done with me. Second is having worked for presidents, if I can bring something to it that I think is distinct and I do think, thinking about what I've talked about, which before, which is the American dream, it's become unaffordable. The system is rigged against people, and I don't see other people doing it. And I. And then there's a part of me also, to be honest, which is I'm tired of the party acting like Thelma Louise and I'm sitting in the backseat and watching his gun it for the cliff. So there's a lot of things that will go into it, and I haven't decided. And if I told you I did, I'd be lying. If I told you I wasn't thinking about it, I'd be lying. So that's where it is.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay. I appreciate that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's kind of a. Yeah. The head is one place, the heart is one place. And on Tuesday, they flip places. But I'm mulling it. Obviously, it's a big decision.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, a lot of the other people thinking about it like me, they're friends or people I admire at certain level. But I think from local government to congressional to the White House to overseas, there's an experience. I'm six for six in my winning. I've never lost, worked on a number of nationals. And I think the overriding ideology for the Democratic Party, while there's a philosophical piece to it has to also be winning.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let's talk about a six for six. So for the audience that isn't aware with who Rahm EMANUEL Is, at 33, you were a senior advisor to President Clinton for five years. You were an Illinois congressman six years. You were chief of staff for President Obama, obviously. Then you were mayor of Chicago for eight years. And then you were recently the ambassador to Japan. In this current moment that we're living in right now, people feel very strongly about career politicians. They go, I hate career politicians.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They should.

[Nicole Wallace]

Does that hurt your feelings?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No. I mean, look at one level again, I feel Very fortunate that both the child of an immigrant and the grandchild of an immigrant could end up, sure, 30ft from the Oval Office twice, totally. And get elected to the city that welcomed my grandfather in 1914, etc. So one level, no. But, you know, in the last 30 years, and this is somewhat my condemnation of. And I'm responsible. I was around Washington, let people down. Yeah, we kind of, as long as we were okay, as long as our kids were okay, the system got rigged. And I, I don't blame them for feeling like, what do you. We pay you guys and all you do is take care of yourselves. And as you and I are sitting here today, you look at kind of the plane from Qatar. You look at Supreme Court justices taking private jets with people who have cases in front of them. You have a congressman trading on stocks. So at one level, they're kind of like smart. On another level, yes, I get the cynicism and I do think part of our politics should be about earning their trust back.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure. I mean, look, things are in a.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So I don't get insulted.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, no, no. I. And you have very much. You know, the stuff that I've been reading about you recently, the op EDS that you've been writing, the appearances that you've been making, you're in this very reflective mode. But I want to, for the audience. Let's take people where you are right now. One of the things people love you for is your analysis. Okay. So clearly Donald Trump is doing a lot of crazy things. We are in a digital era. I'm going to list you just a series of things that have happened in the past. We say 70 days and I would love your opinion on him. And let's say 15 seconds.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Oh, is this like dance. Is this like Dancing with the Stars? Yeah, I like the music. Outfit's okay, but his left foot's dragging.

[Nicole Wallace]

Precisely. Yes. Here we go. Tariffs.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Wrongheaded.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay. Doge.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Total waste. And it's gonna cost us more.

[Nicole Wallace]

Qatari Air Force One, you just mentioned.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Don't give it up. I want the president to keep determined to keep it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Because it's a gift that's gonna keep on giving politically.

[Nicole Wallace]

Interesting ending. Birthright citizenship.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Give me a break. Not that. Not even a one year law student knows that. That's right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Shaming Zelinsky for not wearing a tie. You remember that moment?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Well, you should have seen some of the other guests that he had in like from El Salvador just a week later.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, let's talk about that. Sending random people to El Salvador Gulags.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, but they. It's not like everybody else was wearing an irrespective outfit. I did actually did social media. So give me the gulag.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sending random people to El Salvador gulags.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. It's a violation of what it means to be an American rejecting basically all.

[Nicole Wallace]

Refugees except, I guess, white South Africana. Yeah, yeah. Well, the white ones.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I like to come back at that, only for one reason, because he actually says stuff on immigration that he's horrible on the illegal.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

His words about legal actually reveal, I think more interesting.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think people tell me more about that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I thought we're doing the fast. Okay, we could get the break when the host wants to break.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, that was it. We actually got to the last notice.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Do you ever listen to them? He has obnoxious things about illegal immigration. Nothing that I would approach or like. But he always says, yeah, I'm ready to talk about legal immigration. And obviously in our politics today, you can't even broach that. And I say that both on a substantive level, because if you take a step back, Ronald Reagan's the last guy that passes and signs into law 1986, the Simpsons Mazzoli immigration bill. Every president since has, with chewing gum, some rubber bands and some ropes, has tried to figure out through executive order how to maneuver around. Because what happened in 1986 and where we are in 2024, that's 50 plus years it changed and it's a broken system.

[Nicole Wallace]

What did that critical moment in 86 mean for the listeners who aren't 1986.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is when Ronald Reagan signs into law an immigration bill. What the Republicans hate about that now in retrospect is it basically took people that were here, quote, unquote, illegally and gives them the right to citizenship even though they broke the law to get here. And that's what's driven them crazy. They also think that about the 11/4 million that are here right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Gotcha.

[Rahm Emanuel]

On the other hand, establishes pathways for citizenship, establishes what's illegal. In all his mishegos and all his craziness around that, Trump says he does constantly hold out this, well, we should change and update our legal immigration so it reflects where we are. He says that now the.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the subtext of that in your analysis?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, the system is broken. And I would say this about, like, as a former mayor that created a sanctuary. A sanctuary city for a mayor is no different than a president signing executive orders. You got a bunch of issues that are dumped on you. You're trying to figure out how to actually Operate this. The system, both from legal to illegal is fundamentally not reflective of where the world is today in 2024, as opposed to where it was when the last time we wrote the rules in 1986.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And I do believe. And then let me get to the political part of me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's a division inside the other side.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's the Elon Musk, pro immigration.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And the Steve Bannon and Steve Miller. Shut it all. Legal and illegal are the same. If you're in the opposition, your strategy is to figure out what unites you and divides the other side.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And to me, and I get the heat, the distance given him, what he does about illegal immigration, what he's doing with sending people against their due process rights to El Salvador. There's a part that you could actually divide the other side and unite ours. I think there's more consensus on the Democratic side on what is, quote, unquote, undocumented or illegal immigration.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And there's actually also a huge consensus between Democrats, Independents and what I'll call the old Bush Republicans on legal. And it would leave them between the Elon Musk wing of their party and the Steve Bannon part of their party fighting and killing each other. And I'm pro them fighting and killing each other. I just want to be. I want. I'm on record.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's the fighting and killing. So that's why. But I just say when I said this fast. Brown.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, he is. He makes so much noise, it's impossible.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. And I get the division because he is so ugly in his rhetoric. The demonization of people, the demonization of groups of people, et cetera.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But there's a political opportunity there to do. To set the Republicans back and to create a space for Democrats to have.

[Nicole Wallace]

How would you frame that, that large kind of Venn diagram that you talked about that you said, hey, a lot of Americans are in agreement. Well, you know, what's happening with. When it comes to immigration. And then I want to get to what you've been talking about, two things.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That are fascinating about Donald Trump. Yeah, he moves the needle on a lot of things, but if you ever look at Donald Trump 1.0 and Donald Trump 2.0, the country's opinions on both legal immigration and trade dramatically go against Donald Trump within 90 days of his presidency because people react to the. What he. The way he is doing what he's doing, et cetera. Immigration is like that. Look at today's numbers versus where they were five months ago. Now they X on border, X on getting criminals out. But they're not where they are, just eliminating people's due process and, you know, chasing people and basically violating their rights or chasing kids out of schools or chasing parents at their workplace. So there's a lot of opportunity, both policy wise and politically. And just the problem is our he makes it almost toxic and impossible to have a conversation with him about it.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Dems are currently saying, you know what, and I think Schumer has gone on to say this as well, of hey, let's take a step back, let Donald Trump kind of destroy Gotham City. And then when everybody turns against him, that's when we strike for the jugular, the proverbial.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So look, we. Everybody talks about elections in slightly. They mix and match and that's a mistake. A midterm, when one party owns both sides is a referendum on their leadership. That's what it is. It's not about us, in my view. Some people want to attack Democrats, Democrats want to attack. No, it's right there. It's a rubber stamp Republican Congress. And you put it right on them because it's very clear if you look at independent voters, you'll get slight moderate Republicans. And you look at Democrats, they want somebody to be a checkmate on what they consider this chaos. Using that in abbreviated form. Sure, 2028. This is a referendum in 2026 and in 2025, 2028 is a choice. That's a different dynamic and a different set of what we have to do as a party.

[Nicole Wallace]

I got you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, yeah. Number two, you are the opposition. Don't claim you can do certain things you can't do. Now we gotta pick and choose where our fights are. There's one right now we can talk about on the tax bill a little later that illustrate something about them and something about us. But the reason I'm big right now into ethics, one, it's the gift that will keep on giving. Two, Trump will not give in on this. And three, it makes him the establishment us the change agent. One of the things I worry about in all these fights is Donald Trump is trying to be the change agent and we're trying to be no. Restore and hold the institution where the status quo. That is not a place in this politics right now. You do not want to be the status quo. You want them, the Republican Congress specifically, to be the three monkeys. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. And the ethics, this plain Chinese investment in his Bitcoin business while he's negotiating tariffs for $300 million and a company that's associated with the Chinese Communist Party. This is the gift that will keep on giving. Now, I am a product of my experience back in 2006 when I was responsible taking the House and having Nancy become Speaker, we created a web diagram called the House that Tom delay built, okay? And it had members and their corruption. Now, when we did it, everybody thought, what? What is this? They thought it was cute, funny, but, like, why? And over the cycle, it built to a crescendo. And then you had both. What was going on in Iraq war, what was going on with individual members in Congress. And it became a narrative that Washington was corrupt and you had to change it.

[Nicole Wallace]

So you had the headshots up and then you're like, here's what Bob Nader, biodata. Here's what Duke biodata of corruption.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Got it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. And I think this is my view that Donald Trump will not give up this plane. He loves the opulence. Not a chance. And he will not stop. And I do think there's a for sale sign on the front lawn of the White House. It's a cash and carry business. And I'm from Chicago. I got a low, low threshold. This is something that people are not used to. But the other subtext beyond the corruption is it makes the Republicans who won't check him and won't stop it, B, it makes him the establishment and us the change agent to Washington. Clean the swamp. And to me, that's a big piece of the politics at this moment, this time.

[Nicole Wallace]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Not the shot. The shaft.

[Nicole Wallace]

The shaft. Now how big is the shaft and where is it coming from?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, look, I don't know a lot about you. I know what I read. And you know what you read about me. This is the first time we've actually set eyes at a company.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You and I are in many ways the epitome and our spouses the epitome of the American dream. 100% come immigrant families. Get an education.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Rise up, own a home, get have kids. Save for their retirement. Save for their education. Your retirement healthcare. We're set.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And your kids are younger than mine. Mine are grown up. Two are in the Navy. You know, one's going off to University of Chicago business and laws. You know they're good and they're going to be good and they're going to succeed. The problem is for the last 30 years, as long as we were okay, we didn't really care. And the American dream has been unaffordable. It's inaccessible. And that should be unacceptable to us. And we were comfortable. And the system and the American people figured out is rigged. Their kids are getting the shaft and our kids are going to getting a shot. And that's wrong. And I am upset about it because the moment if you go back also in politics I was not to drop names but I was with President Clinton and Hillary Clinton the other day I told we're coming in town. You can almost track exactly when the American dream started to get out of reach is exactly when our politics became unstable.

[Nicole Wallace]

Totally.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And the two of them those lines cross. And you know, I think it's. I think there's something fundamentally flawed that certain people and I encounter can have multiple homes and other people can't get a starter home.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And there's ideas. The idea. You know, I grew up as my dad was a pediatrician. My mother was an RN nurse and what was then called nuclear. But it's basic radiology.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

When you asked for a second opinion.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It was a doctor, not a health insurance bureaucrat who said no, you can't have that procedure or that doesn't get covered. This is insane. And so I say self aware you and I and more importantly than that our children will be okay. They will navigate this system to a success.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That is not happening. And when that doesn't happen and people feel like you and I will be okay and our kids okay, but their kids won't. And it's set up for us to succeed and for them to fail. Well then the jig is up and then they throw all the cards over the side of the street.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's theory of how we got here because to me drive a third. Well there's red Hat Maga but you were a part of things. I call it almost Blue Hat Maga which was The Clinton era 92 to 97 Clinton era budget surplus years. I think that that is very much for the Democratic Party establishment. This is a hot take. This is my own hot take.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of those were the good old days. Those were the days where peace and.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Prosperity does have its own seductive.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes. Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I always use some people on the left. I say was it the peace or the prosperity that pissed you off? Which one? So now here's what I think. I think so I Now, I think there are three seminal moments that really bust everything.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay?

[Rahm Emanuel]

And it deals slight with the American dream, but it deals more with the system being rigged. Okay. 2002, we go to war in Iraq built on yellow cake from Niger. We spend a trillion dollars, lose thousands and thousands of fellow Americans lives and other people are maimed for life. And not one SOB responsible for that is ever held accountable. They're on boards, they teach at universities, they have papers published in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times. Nobody held accountable who created the single worst foreign policy disaster in America in 200 plus years. Six years later, the financial system built on liar's loans blow people's livelihood, their life savings in their homes. And the pricks, and I use that as a technical term, are begging for saying what? I get my bonus. Why should I have a who? Why should the government tell me as we're bailing their sorry asses out?

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. This is the 0809Finance.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes, thank you for abbreviating what could be at any good time. Well, yeah, I mean, so those two. And again, no banker is held accountable. Now, some of us in the Obama White House were calling to deal with what I called Old Testament justice, that the system needed some relief of literally taking a banker onto the South Lawn and pummeling them alive on cable tv.

[Nicole Wallace]

Holy shit.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, third then is Covid.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And the disruption to people's lives that never has returned.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And professionals and doctors and healthcare who really didn't know what was going on. Nobody did for that matter. Right. But acting as they did.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And telling people how to live their lives, et cetera. So you have these three seminal moments that lives, livelihood and kind of, and how they live their lives all get disrupted. And nobody at the top ever said either A, I'm sorry or B was held accountable. And so to me, those are the moments in which our politics. Now, does it explain why people don't have a down payment on a home, et cetera? It doesn't. But the system of having one set of rules for you and I or people that are kind of the, in the elite or the establishment versus everybody else is when the anger boils.

[Nicole Wallace]

And here's the interesting thing where in my generation and people younger than me, a lot of people that listen and watch the show, AOC has said that those kind of Obama extension Bush tax cuts that happened in 2010, that was a radicalizing moment for her.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I felt incensed about the extension of the Bush tax cuts during the Obama presidency. It was actually very Radicalizing and shocking to me. When I saw that when I was in college, it was that I was like, how could we reward the people who did this and abandon the millions of people who've been victimized by this massive economic crime?

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you now see that as a mistake? Do you feel like, oh, my God, we created aoc?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Do you see? No, I don't think. Look, I actually. Look, she and I don't agree on all the solutions, so we can come with that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But on the basic critique of what's wrong with the system, 100%. Now, look, my solution when I'm mayor is free pre K, universal pre K, free kindergarten, first city to create free community college, raise the minimum wage, etc. So the critique and even some of the policies we agree. I don't know if I would say 2010, because I don't think 2010 is as egregious as a financial meltdown.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think the 2010 tax cuts. Now, I was also back running for mayor at that time, but also I don't think they stack up against the Iraq war and the likes. Totally. So I. So I'm not. I don't want to get into when did it really, really, really start?

[Nicole Wallace]

What was the cherry on top?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, for her, it may have been 2010. That crystallize it. Okay, yeah, that may be it. You know, for me, it may be a different moment, et cetera. But I will say the critique both. And to me, this is very specifically. And it gets to your first question. What does it take to restore confidence that people have, not that they are guaranteed the American dream, they're guaranteed to have a shot at the American dream. What would it take? And that's the North Star. We, as Democrats. That's my North Star. That is the most important thing, both economically and politically. Now, there's other pieces to fill in on that about, you know, I have certain things on education, on national service, et cetera, we would talk about. But to me, that's the core critique and that's the core responsibility.

[Nicole Wallace]

I remember when you were rumored to be the head of the dnc. This is what AOC said. Okay, so AOC tweets this out, but I want to know your analysis on this, because to go to the root of the problem, she goes, there's a disease in Washington of Democrats who spend more time listening to the donor class than working people. If you want to know the seed of the party's political crisis, that's it. The DNC needs an organizer who gets People, not someone who sends fish heads in the mail. Analysis here. Is she identifying the right problem?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I kind of thought the fish was pretty good. First of all, it's in 1980, close to 50 years ago. But it was actually against the political class because.

[Nicole Wallace]

Really.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, it was. I sent it to a pollster that screwed up a race. Jack Kempsey. Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

No way. Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It wasn't just I sent a fish to anybody. I sent it to a member of, quote, unquote, the political class that screwed up. So I kind of agree with her. It is a problem because I, I'm the one person that's actually spoke up and said, you guys suck. We give all this money to you and keep losing. Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not against the fish. What about, what about the serious.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, but on the serious thing.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, no, but for real. Do you, you, you felt like that was like the right move to do or were you just inspired by the Godfather and you're like, let's, let's, let's send a message.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, a number of us signed it, but I'm, I am, I was kind of in my 20s, so there was, I'm, if, if that counts for youth. Youthful indiscretion. That was it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And.

[Nicole Wallace]

But of a cowboy, bit of a rabble rouser.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's kind of, it's definitely a line in every profile and it definitely, definitely, you know, fills it out. And guess what? He's not in politics anymore.

[Nicole Wallace]

It worked.

[Rahm Emanuel]

All right, well, you know, there's. Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Look, do you think there's any truth into what she's saying about Democrats? Is the real question.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The short answer is yes and no. I mean, there, I mean, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to make it about me, but I will say, look, somebody that has dealt. Well, let me say this, not wrong from a messaging standpoint, but there's a lot of Democrats who support and help financially who care about the ideals of the party. If they were only dealing with their own economic interests, they wouldn't be Democrats. But they support what President Clinton, President Obama were trying to do on education, what they were trying to do on universal health care, what they were trying to do on children's health care. So I don't, you know, there's at one level a small yes. And overall, that's not really the problem. Do you know what you believe? I'll give you an example. You know, take education.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think you can believe in equity as a principle. Which is what I think actually Democrats do believe and be totally acceptable to the mediocrity in our schools. You have a 30 year low on reading scores, a 30 year low on math scores and nobody for political reasons wants to talk about. They want to look at their shoes. They don't want to say we created an ongoal keeping schools closed in Covid much longer than other states and our. And the kids of our cities and the kids of our states are paying a consequence now should we listen to all the interest groups associated with that? It's one of the worst crimes committed against our kids where they've been set back 30 years. Now. We all believe in equity. Walk around. Oh, equity, fairness, et cetera. Yeah. How do you get to equity? Let me ask you a question. You have young kids. My kids are all grown.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of course.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You raise your kids at home valuing education so they succeed.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, you know, I'm Indian as well, so. Yeah. This is what you've been saying is music to my dad's ears.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I actually like your parents more than I like you anyway. Okay, but my thing is. Okay, let's deal with it all then. The critique is yes, somewhat right, not totally right. But also there's parts of our party that don't want to take on interest groups, constituencies and others that have had a role to play in setting our kids back.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, I agree. Education is a legitimate shot. It is also one of the things that if you establish a great public school and education system in the country, it raises the floor for everybody. This is.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you can't have equity and mediocrity in the same box. Now the other thing is, look, there's. When you look at all the economists that talk about dealing with wealth disparity or income disparity and they're not the same. Yes, there are two issues. One is taxes, the other is education. It's why when I was mayor, we created full day pre K, full day kindergarten which never existed. And we created the first city. You get a B average, you earn it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You get free community college. We also had a universal plan, so every kid had a post high school education plan. You couldn't get your diploma unless you showed a letter of acceptance from college, community college, branch of the armed forces or vocational education. And everybody, not just your children and my children, had a plan on what they did the day after they got their high school diploma.

[Nicole Wallace]

When people strategize about politics, they talk about the moderate swing voter. There is this idea around the magical swing voter. This kind of unicorn that lives in Ohio that's voted red but waiting to vote blue. My question to you is this. And you can have this very real answer to me. What moderate, moderate voter is sitting in their kitchen in a swing state that voted for Donald Trump twice? Can this person really be swung?

[Rahm Emanuel]

The people that you know. Let me say this just for the record. If, if the criticism of the 2010, I don't particularly know all the merit. Remember the specifics of the 2010.

[Nicole Wallace]

The.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Financial, the 2010 tax bill.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But I do like to remind people that have in our own party that criticized President Obama and President Clinton, both of them won Ohio. They haven't won it since they bought it both times.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So if they're so smart about what's been wrong. Yeah. Two presidents that a lot of Democrats criticize for ruining our relationship with the blue collar working class families. They both. We haven't won Ohio since either one of them ran.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So that's 1, 2. We haven't touched on this. But it's the whole cultural frame. There are voters and I as somebody that focused on swing slash independent district and it's relevant to 2026 going in. You're going to recruit candidates in districts. My guess is any district that Donald Trump and I don't have all the data, but I would say won by 56% or less. That's a district I make sure there's a Democrat with a surfboard on that fits the profile of that district. And there is a voter in those districts who did vote for Donald Trump, but could be once, could be twice.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But they're a swing district. It's what's got the whole tax bill. That while we're sitting here all in a twirl that is unhappy with both an untethered Donald Trump and a compliant Congress and the economic conditions in which we're talking about the price of Greenland and not the price of groceries. And that voter, based on whether we have the right candidate, can have voted for Donald Trump once or twice and still vote for a Democrat for Congress because what a lot of things have changed in their calculation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And if you, and if that's not the case, then you're just going to accept a majority Republican Congress. I don't. There are those voters and you have to do everything right. You have to set up the argument, recruit the right candidate, have the right resources from that donor class and the capacity to compete for their heart, their mind. Now, a lot of us is around economics. I think there are two things I say One is, we've already talked about how the American dream is unaffordable and inaccessible.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And we don't. And the system is rigged against people having a shot at it. We have to also acknowledge that in what was called a bucket of cultural issues, the world is moving incredibly fast, incredibly chaotic level, and people want order. Our party has been for too long, in my view, associated with a permissiveness when people feel the world around them, what their kids are experiencing, social media, etc. Everything from social media to the homeless encampment is in chaos. And there should be a voice for. Because I'm going to break the news to you. I don't know if you know this, but people kind of like order over disorder. And they feel like the world around them, specifically driven by social media, but not alone, is out of control.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you have that be represent order, but not be fascism? Because as you were saying those sentences, I could start to see the military fatigues. Come on. You know? You know what I mean? There's that feeling for.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But there's a lot of projection. Maybe you should see a therapist over that. Just because I said people like order, all of that. I got it. I. Fascism is a bit. That's a big swing and a big critique. I wasn't saying that. But people. Well, I don't know. You and I are sitting here. Governor Newsom, after being governor for six years, just came out for eliminating homeless encampments. I don't think. You think he has a military fatigue.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

He's re. You have a mayor of this city that you're doing this show in who's, you know, the front runner's talking about law and order. That's also happened in San Francisco who now got elected. So you have a lot more people who have moved towards a level on public safety that doesn't go around defunding the police, but actually supporting the police through community policing. You have a lot more people that are dealing with the quality of life around the neighborhoods and communities that's actually affected the way people live lives with homeless and cancers and drug markets. So you may think of it as fascism and not to get my backup, but for a lot of other people, they would like to have a quality of life that allows them to raise their kids in the city.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is there a way. You know, people always talk about this about, are you going further left? Are you going further right?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think, I think that's crazy. You just.

[Nicole Wallace]

You don't accept the framing.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I think. Let me ask you a Question. I sometimes get the attack. Oh, you're just this, you know, you're just a centrist. Okay. I create a free community college. Is that a centrist left or right issue?

[Nicole Wallace]

I would think. I would think that's a progressive issue.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know what I call it? Moving forward issue.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. Well, I think there's a difference. So, you know, some people, you know, I don't know, I created Pre K. We raised the minimum wage in the city that when lawyer said you couldn't do it, we did it. And we never got challenged. We raised it. Okay. I don't consider. I get the philosophical. To me, it's whether you're moving forward, whether you're moving back, and are enough people moving forward, you know, and I don't mean to go back to President Clinton. I work for him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Totally.

[Rahm Emanuel]

His line in 1996, Reelect was building a bridge big enough and strong enough to the 21st century that everybody can get across. So while I say to you I don't buy left center or whatever, progressive versus moderate, to me is, are we moving forward?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Are we going sliding back? And I do actually think. And this gets to a separate time. I was thinking about this today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

As they're thinking about adding another $3.5 trillion to the debt, you know, a big argument in the future is going to be we're going to have to stop borrowing from the future and start investing in it. And that's a theme that, as Democrats, I think we should start talking about a lot more.

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[Nicole Wallace]

What you were talking about, this desire for order and for things to work and for things to, you know, be functioning in society in our biggest cities. There is also the subtext of that that I'm reading is an appeal to the moderate. You have to appeal to the moderate base. But Harris did that in 2024. She went on 60 Minutes. She says I have a block. She did the whole. You know what I mean? She did the whole. She campaigned with Liz Cheney and it didn't work.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't, I don't buy that critique. Okay, now I don't mean to do. But I'm gonna do a quick presidential history. Please, please. Okay. John, John Kennedy goes to Houston. It goes to Texas rather and address John, President Kennedy address in the campaign address that he would not be a Catholic president, but a president who's Catholic. It was a big, huge threshold moment and he had to show that given at that point Catholics also working overwhelmingly vote Democrat and that he was not going to take direction his presidency from the Vatican. Bill Clinton, 40% of his advertising as ending welfare as we know it. He's following Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale, Michael Dukakis. It's a moment to say I'm a new Democrat. That was 1 illustration adding 100,000 community police officers and then what's now become an abbreviated sister soldier. President Obama in 08, he's running. He talks about parenting and fatherhood where a lot of people jump on his down his throat about how dare you, you're scapegoating. And recently also in the last election with Kamala Harris and he has to deal with his issue of his own pastor, Pastor Wright, and give an address, et cetera. All right, but so all three successful presidents anchored themselves you, I call it in mainstream values. And I do think for Democrats could be wrong with this assessment. It is important to show some semblance, especially given that we have a party built on coalition building, of being anchored, rooted in mainstream values, willing to tell a member of the constituency when they're wrong. And it is almost for the voters a permission slip to have the rest of the agenda on economics, et cetera. Heard now again, I'm a product of my experience. Could be wrong. Lessons learned. Possible. I Don't think Bill Clinton's message about a middle class tax cut or this is as he said in 1992 in this city when he accepted the nomination, if you work hard, play by the rules, raise your kids to know right from wrong, this is your moment, this is your time.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I do think his statements on welfare, on reform, on crime, et cetera were permission slips for the economics to get heard.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I would argue that was also true for Barack Obama. And so I'm not. Will you say, oh, that's like fascism. And I know you meant it slightly as a joke, but I'm going to now use it as a foil. But I do think if you want a majority in the House in 2026 and that Trump voter now it's a little less for legislative but it still matters. And one of the reasons, like in 06, we recruited people out of the national security fields, Afghanistan and Iraq war veterans, CIA and other type of intelligence agencies because it grounded them in their biography with a narrative that was from a value system, allowed the rest of the agenda to get hurt. Every one of those candidates we recruited, a lot of Democrats yelled at me, oh, they're not real. They voted for a minimum wage. They voted for Nancy Pelosi to be speaker.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They voted for the rest of their colleagues to have the gavel.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They voted against the surge in Iraq. So you know, so to me that don't when and I know you said it kind of not tongue in cheek or whatever.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I was joking.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I get it. But there is that criticism and in a serious way, the, the desire for order is to understand where voters live their lives. And if you think people and this gets back to the critique about 2024, you told me this stuff about comma. There was a reason that ad about she says they and them and I and I'm for you. There's a reason that ad resonated. It struck a nerve that because people thought we were too obsessed with a very minor set of issues and made them front and center rather than things that a family was facing. Schools aren't back to where they were pre Covid. Their spouses are sitting in the dining room working as if it's their office. Their whole lives have been and we're talking about a set of issues that just are not primary.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And we didn't not only not primary, we grounded ourselves all the way on the extreme. And we have to acknowledge that critique.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's very interesting because everybody, if you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Want to be the majority, you got to you can tell people they're wrong. That's one way to do it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure. I mean, that's.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's an electoral strategy. Hasn't been tried before. And you're wrong. You're.

[Nicole Wallace]

What I'm actually trying to crack is what I. What I'm seeing. Macro. And again, it's called Hasan Minaj doesn't know. So I don't know that's what the DK means. But I am noticing and what I'm trying to, you know, as a comedian, we try to be a reflection of the times and the people. You know, Bernie and aoc, they're on this thing called the Stop Oligarchy tour. And there's a lot of energy around that. And it seems like what I am determining from that, from that movement and that collective consciousness, from the people, is they got the finger pointed at the executive C suite, penthouse class. These people are the root of the problem. And we do need fair and equitable wages. The middle class has been hollowed out. We don't. We're not getting a fair.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can I say one?

[Nicole Wallace]

So I want to ask you is where do we point the finger and where's the shadow coming from?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Because this is really what it is. So as both the person in politics, the strategists, et cetera. Yeah. All right. You would agree that Chicago is kind of a working class bungalow belt city. The Pope just escaped from that, right?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I represented the city as mayor.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Bridgeport, Porridge Park, Jefferson's Park. Places that cops, firefighters, teachers, garbage men. Nobody at the L stops at the grocery store. The cafe has ever used the word oligarch. They call them rich people.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. But no, you say that we suck at marketing. Okay. Why can you not use rich? I mean, oligarch may feel great when you submit your PhD, but she did.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wear the dress that said eat the rich.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So that didn't.

[Nicole Wallace]

That didn't go well either.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But no, it got an ethics report.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, that didn't go well either, but.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So my thing is the critique is. Gets back to what this is. Why I say we. Our critique is the same. The system is rigged for the people at the C Suite and not only for them, for their kids. And that's exactly where you should point it, and rightfully so. And they are going to scrap and fight to hold onto it. Now, you know, you're looking at the guy that authored Bernie co sponsored it for me when I was a member of Congress, it was my bill reimportation of pharmaceutical drugs. It was the only time that the pharmaceutical industry was ever beat on the House floor when the Republicans were majority. When I sponsored the bill, we built a bipartisan coalition, passed the bill over Tom delay's objections and the pharmaceutical industry. So the critique is the same. There are some places we agree on policy, some places we disagree, probably more we disagree, et cetera. But the critique about the system, who's responsible and who gets the benefit of it, and that the system is rigged against everybody else is not wrong. I think the most telling sign, you know, we often divide our politics. College, non, college educated.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. That was an old framing, but yes, yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Black, white or minorities versus whites, sure. Urban, suburban, rural or urban, suburban. Okay. Male, female. To me, the killing of the United Health Executive told you everything.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The real break in the division is elite establishment versus everybody else. The idea that somebody was killed in cold blood who had family and kids and you're cheering the killer, told you the amount of rage that exists, not justified. It's absolutely wrong. We should have come. Everybody that kind of said, oh, you can understand that, no, you're not allowed to kill somebody. You're not allowed to kill somebody cold blooded. It's called murder and you got to be held accountable. But it does tell you how. There's a division that goes beyond.

[Nicole Wallace]

People were cheering, his DMs were flooded.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's a division that goes beyond college and non college educated, beyond ethnicity, beyond gender, beyond geography, where you live. It's the elite versus everybody else. And there's a seething anger and there's a reason to be angry. Doesn't justify the killing. And the guy that did it is a murderer and should be held accountable.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm going to throw this out there and I don't know if it's going to happen or not. But if you run for president, so much of that presidency, and again, this is a, this is a hypothetical, it may or may not of what comes with the presidency. And running for president is this idea from the American people. We want new ideas and fresh blood and new ideas. Do you think if you run for president, people will think of you as someone who represents the establishment?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I said to President Obama once, it was like the darkest, darkest moment of health care, you know, the things just coming apart at the same. And I said, people hate the status quo. They're not too excited by change either. And they kind of got us right where they want. So it's a fear analysis on both sides. Can I be change?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Or am I? All my experience comes with a benefit and it comes with a liability. And like everything in our lives, your strengths are your liabilities as well.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ambassador Ramain.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much. That was a fun one.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You have had such a laugh.