Stacey Abrams on Kamala's Chances in November

Summary

Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know: Stacey Abrams on Kamala's Chances in November

Release Date: August 23, 2024
Host: Hasan Minhaj
Guest: Stacey Abrams

---

1. Pop Culture Challenge

Timestamp: [00:00 – 01:08]

The episode kicks off with Hasan Minhaj engaging Stacey Abrams in a playful trivia game centered around her extensive knowledge of pop culture, specifically focusing on iconic TV shows like Law and Order and The West Wing. This segment not only showcases Stacey's diverse interests but also sets a light-hearted tone for the conversation.

Hasan Minhaj:
"Stacey Abrams, you have incredible pop culture knowledge. Let's play a little game called Stacey Abrams. Human. IMDb."
[00:00]

Stacey Abrams:
"I cannot tell you who the guest star was, but I do know the episode you're talking about."
[00:32]

Their banter highlights Stacey's quick wit and ability to navigate unexpected questions with grace, illustrating her multifaceted personality beyond her political endeavors.

---

2. The Impact of Stacey Abrams on Democratic Success

Timestamp: [01:58 – 03:28]

Transitioning from pop culture, Hasan shifts the focus to Stacey's pivotal role in the Democratic Party's successes. He underscores her contributions to key legislative achievements and the Senate victories crucial for advancing Democratic agendas.

Hasan Minhaj:
"None of that would have happened if Democrats didn't win the Senate. And they wouldn't have won the Senate if Stacey Abrams hadn't spent years leading the charge against voter suppression."
[02:50]

Stacey Abrams:
"The tax credit that cut childhood poverty in half, $35 insulin minimum corporate tax, billions of dollars for clean energy. None of that would have happened if Democrats didn't win the Senate."
[03:10]

This segment emphasizes Stacey's strategic influence in building voter turnout infrastructure, particularly among marginalized communities, which has been instrumental in shaping recent political landscapes.

---

3. Assessing the Harris-Waldz Bill

Timestamp: [04:00 – 05:05]

Hasan delves into the prospects of the Harris-Waldz bill, exploring its potential impact on the Democratic Party and the broader political climate. Stacey offers an optimistic view, highlighting the historical significance of having Vice President Kamala Harris and Governor Walts on the ticket.

Stacey Abrams:
"It feels like newness has returned to our politics. Vice President Harris and Governor Walts feel like something new, something different."
[04:27]

Hasan Minhaj:
"How do you feel about the prospects for this Harris-Waltz bill for the Democratic Party?"
[04:00]

Their discussion centers on the infusion of fresh perspectives and the strategic coalition-building necessary for electoral victories, reinforcing the importance of diverse leadership in contemporary politics.

---

4. Navigating Identity Politics and Unity

Timestamp: [05:05 – 08:16]

The conversation intensifies as Hasan raises concerns about identity politics, questioning whether the country is too divided by race and gender to elect a black woman as president. Stacey responds by advocating for coalition-building that transcends racial and cultural boundaries.

Hasan Minhaj:
"Is this country too racist and sexist to elect a black woman as president?"
[05:21]

Stacey Abrams:
"Demographics aren't destiny. They are opportunity. Coalitions get built because of possibility."
[05:59]

Stacey emphasizes Kamala Harris's role as a unifying figure, capable of bridging diverse communities through shared goals and mutual respect, thus fostering a more inclusive political environment.

---

5. The Realities of Voter Suppression

Timestamp: [15:11 – 18:07]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting voter suppression tactics and the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Stacey provides a detailed analysis of how contemporary laws undermine democratic participation, particularly among minority communities.

Stacey Abrams:
"Voter suppression is three things. Can you register and stay on the rolls? Can you cast a ballot? And does that ballot get counted?"
[16:21]

Hasan Minhaj:
"They claim election integrity, which basically means we don't like the people voting who are changing the outcome."
[17:58]

Stacey recounts her experiences in Georgia, illustrating how legal battles have both curtailed and advanced voter rights. Her insights highlight the ongoing struggle to ensure fair and equitable access to the ballot box, emphasizing the necessity of vigilance and proactive measures in safeguarding democracy.

---

6. The Philosophy of Protest: Order vs. Justice

Timestamp: [24:17 – 25:31]

Hasan probes Stacey's views on the balance between maintaining order and pursuing justice through protests. Stacey articulates the inherent tension between these two aspects, advocating for justice even when it disrupts societal norms.

Stacey Abrams:
"Justice should be uncomfortable because it challenges what we believe we are entitled to and what we've delivered."
[24:02]

Hasan Minhaj:
"What are your thoughts on the longstanding discussion about order versus justice?"
[24:47]

Stacey underscores that while order is essential, it should not come at the expense of justice. She encourages strategic and mindful protest actions that draw attention to critical issues without overshadowing the underlying causes.

---

7. Voting as Medicine: A Call to Action

Timestamp: [26:07 – 27:47]

In a metaphorical comparison, Stacey describes voting as "medicine," essential for combating societal ills despite its imperfections. This analogy serves to motivate individuals to engage in the democratic process persistently.

Stacey Abrams:
"Voting is medicine. It recognizes that you are living in a society of ills, of diseases... The remedy is to vote."
[26:07]

Hasan Minhaj:
"Don't tell me to use this type of medicine. I'm going to try to find a whole new medicine."
[27:14]

Stacey reinforces the idea that while voting may not be a cure-all, it is a vital and ongoing effort to enact positive change and prevent regression, urging continued participation despite challenges.

---

8. Personal Reflections and Legacy

Timestamp: [29:03 – 30:35]

The discussion shifts to Stacey's personal background, highlighting the influence of her parents' values in shaping her commitment to community and public service. She shares anecdotes that reveal the foundation of her resilience and dedication.

Stacey Abrams:
"My parents grew up both with a very strong belief that not only were they entitled to more, but they were responsible to make sure that other people had more."
[30:09]

Hasan Minhaj:
"What made your parents so benevolent? And why are Indians so selfish?"
[29:03]

Stacey clarifies her parents' ethos of collective upliftment over individual gain, debunking stereotypes and illustrating the profound impact of familial and cultural values on her leadership style.

---

9. Advocating for Persisted Efforts

Timestamp: [27:47 – 28:57]

Addressing sentiments of political fatigue and nihilism among voters, Stacey encourages steadfastness in democratic engagement. She emphasizes that incremental progress, even if imperfect, is crucial in combating systemic issues.

Stacey Abrams:
"We have to keep doing it because we're not just trying to get to better, we're trying to stop bad from getting worse."
[27:14]

Hasan Minhaj:
"Don't give up on what we know can make some progress."
[27:47]

This segment serves as a motivational call to action, urging individuals to persist in voting and activism as continuous efforts towards meaningful change.

---

10. Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors

Timestamp: [30:35 – 32:00]

The episode concludes with Stacey discussing her new podcast, Assembly Required, which focuses on tackling complex societal problems through curiosity, problem-solving, and collaborative efforts. Her vision for the podcast aligns with her overarching mission of fostering informed and active citizenship.

Stacey Abrams:
"Assembly Required is about... how do you fix something somewhere soon. How do you find the pieces that get us in the game, that help us wedge open the issue."
[30:41]

Hasan Minhaj:
"Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for joining us."
[31:38]

The wrap-up highlights Stacey's ongoing commitment to societal improvement and her strategic approach to addressing entrenched issues, leaving listeners with a sense of purpose and inspiration.

---

Notable Quotes

• Stacey Abrams:
  "Demographics aren't destiny. They are opportunity."
  [05:59]

• Hasan Minhaj:
  "Voting is medicine. Magic happens when you want it."
  [26:07]

• Stacey Abrams:
  "Justice should be uncomfortable because it challenges what we believe we are entitled to and what we've delivered."
  [24:02]

• Stacey Abrams:
  "We have to keep doing it because we're not just trying to get to better, we're trying to stop bad from getting worse."
  [27:14]

---

Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Hasan Minhaj and Stacey Abrams navigate the complexities of modern American politics, voter suppression, identity politics, and the essential role of persistent democratic participation. Stacey's blend of personal anecdotes, strategic insights, and unwavering commitment to justice offers a compelling narrative on the path forward for the Democratic Party and the broader fight for equitable governance.

Transcript

[Hasan Minhaj]

Stacey Abrams, you are known for many different things. Your career as a state legislator and House Minority leader. Your work on voting rights, which we'll get to later helping Democrats win the Senate in 2020. But one thing a lot of people do not know is that you have incredible pop culture knowledge when it comes to Law and Order, the West Wing, and Star Trek. Let's play a little game called Stacey Abrams. Human. IMDb question one in Law and Order season 11, episode one, where a, quote, a suspicious apartment fire leaves a severely disabled boy dead of smoke inhalation. Who was the guest star?

[Stacey Abrams]

I cannot tell you who the guest star was, but I do know the episode you're talking about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's Rudy Giuliani.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, you said guest star. You used star. That did not count.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But how do you ignore Rudy Giuliani?

[Stacey Abrams]

I practice that every day.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Question two in Law and Order season 19, episode 10, where two biologists at a local university come home to find their son and their housekeeper murdered. Who was the guest star?

[Stacey Abrams]

Season 19, Jesse L. Martin's gone. It's Anthony Anderson and, I don't know, Timothee Chalamet again.

[Hasan Minhaj]

All right, I'll give you a follow up. Okay, what Chalamet movie is he hottest in?

[Stacey Abrams]

I cannot answer that question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Dune. Dune.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm 50.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm 38.

[Stacey Abrams]

He's 4. I don't pay attention. Okay, okay. If you ask me anything about Idris Elba, we could elevate this conversation immediately.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I got you. All right, question three. Summarize the plot of season three, episode 15 of the West Wing, Hartsfield's Landing.

[Stacey Abrams]

Hartsfield's Landing is an episode about Jed Bartlett and how he comes to find who he will be as president. It is one of those moments where we learn how he engages as a president and how difficult it was for him to decide to want this job. I love the West Wing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What was the B story?

[Stacey Abrams]

Oh, that is. Yeah. Cj, Craig and Charlie start fighting back and forth and have a prank war.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's nuts. Yeah, that's fucking crazy.

[Stacey Abrams]

I really like tv.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Welcome to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know. DNC edition. I spent the week here in Chicago and I got to see all the DNC stans. You know, the people that I'm talking about. The type of people who own eight lanyards and paid 1,000 bucks to go see Hamilton. They were all there to see the neoliberal Avengers, Obama, Hillary, Uncle Joe, and Kamala Aunty. But I noticed one person was missing. Maybe the most consequential Democrat of the Biden administration who wasn't even in the Biden administration. I'm talking about Stacey Abrams. All of Joe Biden's most important accomplishments happened because of Stacey Abrams. The tax credit that cut childhood poverty in half, $35 insulin minimum corporate tax, billions of dollars for clean energy. None of that would have happened if Democrats didn't win the Senate. And they wouldn't have won the Senate if Stacey Abrams hadn't spent years leading the charge against voter suppression and building an infrastructure to turn out black voters in Georgia. So I sat down with her here in Chicago to talk about voting law and the TV show and how to burn a confederate flag in the nerdiest way possible. We proud our boys in line over the revolution. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There's a reason 4 million people have turned to BetterHelp. For mental health support, go to betterhelp.com hasn to save 10% off your first month and find the right therapist for you. Last time we saw each other was the hbo.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yes. Little thing that we're always sitting in chairs with you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Shall I call you Leader Harris or.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, Harris is not my name.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm sorry, not Leader Hairs. Leader Abrams.

[Stacey Abrams]

I mean, you can call me which you want.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Leader Abrams. I got nervous. I got nervous. They go open the interview and you have to ask, is it given the.

[Stacey Abrams]

Emphasis you put on names? That was just really funny.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Bars.

[Stacey Abrams]

Deeply, deeply ironic.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Bars. That is so ironic.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm just saying I'm going to own that for a while.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Nicely done.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you very much, Leader Abrams. Thank you so much.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Leader Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for joining us.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thanks for having me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is an honor. How do you feel about the prospects for this Harris waltz bill for the Democratic Party?

[Stacey Abrams]

I think we are positioned to win. We cannot ignore. In fact, we should lift up and celebrate the historical nature of this ticket. The fact that we have two Gen Xers on the ticket. And you may have heard, Vice President Harris is the first black woman, the first South Asian woman.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I got the memo to.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yes. And so people have noticed that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Stacey Abrams]

But I think what's also part of this moment is it feels like. It feels like not only a corner has been turned, it feels like newness has returned to our politics. And we've survived four years of Donald Trump. We thrived, I think, in terms of what was delivered by a Biden administration. But for anyone who's gone through difficult times, there's a bit of trauma associated with the last four, the last eight years. And I think Vice President Harris And Governor Walts feel like something new, something different, something we haven't felt or seen in a while.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Getting a little serious here. As a minority in this country, I always have my spidey sense on when it comes to politics. We can be deeply pessimistic at times, nihilistic when it comes to the political process. I'm an Indian man. You're a black woman. Kamala Harris is voltron of me and you.

[Stacey Abrams]

There you go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So let's just racist game theory this out. Is this country too racist and sexist to elect a black woman as president?

[Stacey Abrams]

Demographics aren't destiny. They are opportunity. But what that means in this moment is that coalitions get built because of possibility. The coalition that brings together the growing South Asian population in the United States, that brings together a black population that feels sometimes taken for granted, often oppressed, and certainly discounted too often by politicians. They can come together with those whose tendency is not to elect either black or brown.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So she can be the thing that unites people.

[Stacey Abrams]

That she can. She's a Rorschach test.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay?

[Stacey Abrams]

And for whomever you are, you see something in her that you can get along with. We're not all going to be on the same WhatsApp chat, but we are all going to see something in her that says this is what we want. And it's that coalition building, that convergence that she serves. Voltron, if you will. Her ability to bring all of those things together, connect all those pieces, that. That's how we get to victory.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But what happens, which is very common in politics right now, is identity politics. Both parties do this, and obviously Donald Trump questioned Vice President Harris blackness, which of course he's gonna do. He's a weirdo. He can be psychotic at times. Of course it's gonna happen. But then people in the black community have also questioned Vice President Harris blackness. I did a scientific poll by reading the comments section of Charlamagne tha God's Instagram page. When Vice President Harris went to the Breakfast Club. Here's what I found. We got Dr. Mr. Boy 27. Sometimes she's Indian, sometimes she's black. We got young underscore 237. She was sworn into the United States Senate as the first Indian American woman. Not black, not African American. Indian American. She only claims black around this time. 2,426 likes L Showtime, 85 BLM only during election. Laughing face. Laughing face. Laughing face. I am genuinely curious. This is not a baiting question.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What do you think about this conversation? Because it confuses me I'm not confused.

[Stacey Abrams]

By the conversation, and I'm not concerned by it, because this conversation happens. It's happening in public, because we are at a place where it's now a national discussion.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Stacey Abrams]

But here's the reality. We live in a nation, and I need you to lean in for this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure, sure.

[Stacey Abrams]

Race has impact in this country.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Stacey Abrams]

It colors how we see things.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course.

[Stacey Abrams]

And for communities that have never been seen or heard, they are now being weaponized to diminish her capacity and her possibilities. The intention of pitting her blackness against her Indian heritage is designed to say that we can't get along.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Stacey Abrams]

Designed to say that these two things can't coexist.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Cause I was confused where I was like, guys, someone can be biracial.

[Stacey Abrams]

In fact, it's a whole section in the census.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Stacey Abrams]

But it gets likes. It gets commentary.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And why does that identity have to be in conflict with one another? Again, I'm confused.

[Stacey Abrams]

One of the best ways to win a war, to win a battle, is to pit possible allies against each other.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So this is. I really agree with that. And that was a feeling I could not articulate. This is not new. I feel both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party lean into identity. And I agree with what you're saying. Identity is intrinsic to who we are. There's no. And I don't want to fall down that trap of, like, never make it an identity. Identity has nothing to do with that is such a. That's like a bad faith argument. But are you afraid that when it gets to this point, it takes on a life of its own? You know how, like, when you do Hot Ones, the show, and there's like, six Hot Ones bottles, and I'm like, let's keep it at 4. Do you feel like taking identity this far, it becomes a distraction?

[Stacey Abrams]

I don't think it becomes a distraction for the people who actually know what you're talking about and for the people for whom it is a distraction. They've never engaged the conversation. I'm a black woman from the South. We've talked about race. We've talked about color. We've talked about shades. Every community that has had melanin or doesn't have melanin has conversations about color. The question is whether we allow that to distract us from the underlying question. This isn't a question of her race. This is a question of her capacity. And they are trying to pit communities against one another because the undertone and the dog whistle is whether she can have the job.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think there's somebody else who agrees with you and has an additional statement and that is Arkshadow. DJ okay, who cares if she black or not what them policies look like?

[Stacey Abrams]

I could have said it more succinctly. So thank you. Dark Shadow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You've campaigned and fought the good fight and you know what it takes to get on the campaign trail and message. What advice would you give the Harris Waltz bill, knowing some of the uphill battles that you clearly faced in Georgia that she's clearly facing with the distraction nonsense of the comment section that then becomes weaponized and literally like the New York Times, the media, it becomes weeks long stories. This is why it was a long walk to get to Dark Shadow DJ Because I was the long division of all this nonsense was like, yeah, this is a waste of time and it's a distraction. Do you have any advice for them knowing that this is going to constantly be weaponized?

[Stacey Abrams]

Keep doing what you're doing. They have enjoyed a fairly steady stream of positive press because they are actually talking to people in the language and in the moment that people need to hear. And so I think that anyone who's telling you you need to shift your strategy and shift your tactics, that person should not be listened to. Because what's working is that young people who didn't hear themselves are now hearing policies that appeal to them. What's working is that communities of color who felt that they were being shunted aside by the possibility of a Trump administration now see the possibility of regaining and reclaiming their space. Do not get distracted by the naysayers and the bots, because we can't always tell which is which.

[Hasan Minhaj]

One of the things that they have been doing, which I don't know if this has been a strategy or not, but if you've noticed from a messaging standpoint, the Dems are coming out and now starting to name call the way the Republicans did. Trump is weird. JD Vance is creepy. Why have these 8th grade insults caught fire?

[Stacey Abrams]

Sometimes insults work because they simply give voice to what we've already seen. Trump is weird. J.D. vance has said and done some things that call into question whether or not you want him at your dinner table. I have a borrowed teenager, a niece who's lived with me since she was 14. There is nothing meaner.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, than an eighth grader. Are you kidding?

[Stacey Abrams]

Good Lord.

[Hasan Minhaj]

14.

[Stacey Abrams]

You question your personhood, you question your future. You wonder if you should just stay inside.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're talking about 8th grade disses.

[Stacey Abrams]

I mean, there's a viciousness and a precision to their attack that Leaves you questioning whether or not you believe in religion.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Just it's, you know, you come in with big J.D. vance, did you fart Energy? And he's like, I didn't fart.

[Stacey Abrams]

Then what's wrong with your face?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Therapy is great for solving problems. Look, I've had anxiety for years and therapy has helped me manage it. Let's be honest. You think I move my hands this much because I'm at peace? No. But starting therapy has some issues of its own, like finding the right therapist, fitting into their schedule, getting into their office. And of course, there's the cost. BetterHelp was created to help solve those problems because you deserve to focus on yourself and make your wellbeing a priority. BetterHelp is convenient, built around your schedule, and surprisingly affordable. Go to betterhelp.com hasn to save 10% off your first month. Both you and Donald Trump, strangely, have one thing in common. This is real.

[Stacey Abrams]

Go, go, leader Abrams. Bring it on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You both have been extremely effective at increasing voter turnout. Okay, it is true. Thank you. Is there a world where Donald Trump over the long term is a good thing for democracy because it wakes people up to get involved and get out and vote?

[Stacey Abrams]

In the abstract, it is always a good, a native good for more people to be involved. However, the question is at what cost? And the real life cost in terms of people's capacity to take care of themselves and their families. The fear, the diminution of our power, both domestically and internationally. He has cost us so much that there is no native good and there is no net benefit. The Supreme Court that he fomented has destroyed so many lives. And so, no, there is no universe in which I would ever countenance that he gets credit for anything other than harm.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was trying to be optimistic, to be honest, trying to find a. You know, sometimes you have a rock bottom moment in life. I remember when I was dating my now wife, there was a moment where she came over to my apartment, this is before I proposed, and there was nothing but a bottle of Sriracha and a Mountain Dew. And my beautiful wife Ina saw that and goes, if you don't turn this around, I am not marrying you. And it was a wake up call for me on some level. Maybe Donald Trump for voting was that Mountain Dew Sriracha moment of. Guys, this could really go off the rails.

[Stacey Abrams]

Let's remember, Donald Trump is a symptom. He is not the disease. I live in a state where the current governor has been more effective at voter suppression than his predecessors in the 1950s and 60s, he, in a single day, purged more voters from the voting rolls than anyone in American history.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The Supreme Court is ultimately the last word on voting rights. And as you know, that word has been no. How do you think about that part of the battle?

[Stacey Abrams]

Let's take a big step back. Voting Rights Act 1965 transformed America because it finally held states accountable for federal election protection. You had the right to vote. Ish. But it for the first time said that certain states that had a history of bad action were now going to be held accountable. And even before they did bad things, they had to come and get permission.

[Hasan Minhaj]

These bad actions are particular kind of things that pinpoint a particular community. Let's find a place where we can, for lack of a better term, jam them up and have them not participate in democracy.

[Stacey Abrams]

Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So the example that I've given to, again, friends and family of mine when I talked about voting rights on the WhatsApp channel is imagine if the Supreme Court or a state passed a ruling where if you own a cash only business, you cannot vote. There'd be a lot of brown people that would not be able to vote. Like Edison, New Jersey would not be able to vote. A lot of people in Queens would not be able to vote. Jackson Heights would not be able to vote. I sometimes try to articulate when we talk about voter ID bills or these other sort of pinpoint things.

[Stacey Abrams]

So to your point, voter suppression is three things. It's can you register and stay on the rolls?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Can you cast a ballot and does that ballot get counted? The Voting Rights act said that in states that had a tendency to stop you from being able to register or stay on the rolls, that put in place rules to stop you from casting your ballot because you owned a cash only business. Only business, which are only businesses. Yes. Or that didn't count your ballot. They got it. They just didn't like the name they saw on the outside, so it fell in the trash. Those things were voter suppression. And it said, we're going to stop you in advance from doing this and if we think you have a tendency, we're going to give people the right to sue you to make you do better.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Just for the quick Wikipedia entry, tldr, what are these common tactics that are used to close voting boots and in.

[Stacey Abrams]

Particular communities, if you live in a community where there's no bus service or the bus service is really slow and you only get two hours off to vote, and they close the only place that the bus goes to, you can't vote. In Florida, they passed Such extreme laws about registering voters that the League of Women Voters said it was too dangerous to register voters there because they would have to pay thousands of dollars in fines. The League of Women Voters, whose only job as women voters in a league is to help you get registered voter id, seems really innocuous, except that if you're Native American and lived in South Dakota, they passed a law saying you could only vote if you had a voter ID with your street address on it. But the county had to give you a street address, and they refused to give street addresses to Native Americans who lived on reservations. So you had an ID that could not have an address, and they passed a law saying you had to have the address. And so you were just disenfranchised.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How are they able to get away with this? What is their core argument that gets this passed through the local courts all the way up to the Supreme Court. How do they do this?

[Stacey Abrams]

They claim election integrity, which basically means we don't like the people voting who are changing the outcome. So we're just gonna say they're dangerous without any proof.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How does this catch national attention? This headline of there was mass voter fraud. The election was rigged. How does this happen?

[Stacey Abrams]

We've always had questions about elections. And in this country, when you have questions about election outcomes, you have a few recourses, one of which is lawsuits. You sue to find out what happened. You ask for a recount, or you challenge the laws. But we use the courts to determine what happened. Typically, the lawsuit is brought by the injured party, and often the injured party is either a voter who tried to vote and couldn't or a candidate who thought the outcome did not align with what was reported. So let's think about what happened in the last few years. 2018. I stand for election. I work with thousands of Georgians to create a coalition of voters who look nothing like everyone that's preceded us. We add 800,000 new voters to the rolls. Triple Latino turnout, triple Aapi turnout, Increase Black turnout by 40%, get young people to vote. But we also face a phalanx of voter suppression laws uncovered by the Associated Press and by others. And by the time we get to election day and post election day, we can actually prove a number of flaws in the election process. Well, when that happens, who can argue that this happened? Well, I was one of those people. It was my name on the ballot. And so I, along with a number of other folks, helped get people to file suit to say, not we're gonna change the outcome, but we're gonna make sure. Every vote gets counted. And I couched this as voter suppression because that's what it was in the same process. I said, it's voter suppression in part because we had new people, new voices, new additions to the electorate that we weren't used to, and people noticed. So I take partial responsibility in lifting up the voting rights responsibilities and the challenges to voting in this country. Fast forward 2020. It worked. We were able to increase the number of voters in dramatic fashion, and the composition of those voters did not look like what people were used to. Well, part of the reason Georgia changed so much was that when we filed lawsuits in 2018 and 2019, they started fixing the things we said were broken. And so by 2020, we had one of the fairest elections we'd ever had because more people were able to vote. And so losing an election because more people got to participate is what led to the cries of fakery and the denial of the election.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There is a very interesting Stacey Abrams, lifelong political pragmatism that you have had. This is kind of like the perfect metaphor for your politics. In college, you helped organize the burning of the Georgia flag that had a Confederate flag inside of it. It was like state of Georgia. And then it's the Confederate flag on the steps of the Georgia Capitol. But before you went to the steps of the Georgia State Capitol to burn the flag, you got a permit.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yes, that's me in the background.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, that's you. That's you. That is leader Stacey Abrams right here. And I believe this is an ashtray to pick up the ashes.

[Stacey Abrams]

It was required if you had a burn permit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So this is both incredibly badass and incredibly dorky.

[Stacey Abrams]

It caused some concern among my fellow rabble rousers when they.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What. Where. Where did this instinct come from? Because most people become pragmatic once they have a mortgage. So how did you have this energy when you held no assets?

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm the second of six children. We describe my older sister as the. She's the captain. The sister who's after me is kind of cruise director. I'm finance and logistics.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Stacey Abrams]

When you've got to move six kids around, you've got to get things done. Someone's got to be the pragmatist. And often, if you want to do something that is crazy, you want to diminish the likelihood that you get caught, and you want to diminish the likelihood that you get in trouble, you're still gonna do it. You just wanna limit the variables. I was gonna burn that flag. I don't need to go to jail. I have the right to burn the flag, so get the permit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Stacey Abrams Playbook of Protest. As we speak right now, there are thousands of people in the streets that are protesting what's happening right now in Gaza. Do you think those folks are following the Stacey Abrams Playbook of Protest?

[Stacey Abrams]

Protest is inherent in a democracy. We are required to speak out. We are required to lift up our voices and demand better of our leaders. That is part of our heritage. It is part of our obligation. How we do so is often determined by the response that we're getting. And there is a desperation that some people feel that they believe can only be met by not just civil disobedience, but criminal disobedience. I do not subscribe to that. I do not think that that is where we have to be. I believe civil disobedience exists for a reason. But I think that it is incumbent upon each of us to not only determine what we need, but determine the consequences we are willing to endure for what we choose. My father was arrested when he was 14 for registering black people to vote in Mississippi. He understood that he was going to be arrested. He understood that he was likely going to face physical violence from. From law enforcement, and he chose the consequences. The challenge is making certain that whatever choices we make, we make them with the full understanding that the consequences are not going to be alleviated just because of the righteousness of our belief systems. It is important that we validate the necessity of protest, but that we also recognize that we live in a democracy, we live in a society, and there's going to be a cost to what you do. There was a cost to what I did, and those costs will be paid.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's a big philosophical critique around protest in the past and currently in this country. But there's something that sticks with me and it's stuck with me for a long time. There's this amazing quote, 1967, Martin Luther King Jr. Quote.

[Stacey Abrams]

Every time you move to try to solve the problem, they will respond by saying, you're moving too fast, you ought to cool off, you should put on brakes. And they end up more devoted to order than to justice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As I've gotten older, I've come to really sit with that and really think about it. Anytime there are protests, Black Lives Matter, climate protests, protests over what is happening in Gaza, people end up focusing on the disorder and not the cause that people are fighting for. What are your thoughts on this longstanding discussion about order versus justice? In other words, just to put it in more simple Terms people, when they see protesters, they're like, why are you blocking the street? I'm trying to get to target.

[Stacey Abrams]

We resist disorder because disorder forces us to pay attention to the context of what's causing our discomfort. Yeah, justice should be uncomfortable because justice challenges what we believe we are entitled to and what we believe we've delivered. And it forces us to confront those who have never met justice head on. And so I will always stand on the side of justice. I think that there are steps you can take to make certain as many people as possible can pay attention to you. And sometimes that is by being orderly. It is by paying attention to the rules. But there are going to be moments where you take the risk of going beyond what order can or should allow. And we do so because what is on the other side is so much more important.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What would you say? I'm a living representative of a community of people. A lot of us are descendants of the Immigration act of 1964. So we are first or second generation kids. We are first or second time voters in our families. Many of the people that I know that are in my WhatsApp groups feel deeply despondent with the current state of affairs and the current state of the empire, meaning the United States of America in its position in the world. And they feel despondent and nihilistic about voting. How should they, and how should we think about engaging with democracy when things feel really dark and dire and downright depressing and fucked up?

[Stacey Abrams]

Voting is not magic. Voting is medicine. Magic happens when you want it. And thus it appears medicine recognizes that you are living in a society of ills, of diseases, of cancers, to our communities, to our visions. And the remedy is to vote. But that remedy sometimes is more bitter, more vile, more corrosive it feels than the disease you're fighting. And so we don't want to take it or worse, we curse the cure. My argument is that we've got to keep taking our medicine because the evil doesn't go away. The ills don't disappear after one swig, after one dose. And in fact, it gets more and more resistant. And so we've got to keep doing it because we're not just trying to get to better, we're trying to stop bad from getting worse. I see voting as medicine. And I take my medicine. I take my medicine even when I don't like it. I take my medicine when I don't think it's working. I take my medicine because to not take my medicine is to let the cancer win, to let the Evil win to let wrong win. And so take your medicine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

To a lot of my friends that are actively participating in many different protests, the climate protest, Black Lives Matter protests, and the Gaza protests, who are staunchly saying the medicine isn't working and it hasn't worked. Don't tell me to use this type of medicine. I'm going to try to find a whole new medicine. Or we're going to the people in power to say we need a new recipe. Whatever the core ingredients of this acetaminophen democracy, it's not working. We needed a whole new chemical compound to fix the problem. What would you say to those people?

[Stacey Abrams]

I would say that until you find the perfect cure, don't give up on what we know can make some progress. And that's fundamentally where I sit. Progress matters. We want solutions. I come from a family that has fought for solutions, but I also acknowledge progress. I got to be the first black woman in American history to be a nominee for governor for a State in 2018. That was progress. It's terrible that it took until 2018 to happen, and it's leader Abrams.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It is wild.

[Stacey Abrams]

And it's even more concerning. It still hasn't happened. And the thing of it is that progress matters. So, no, we have not solved any of these crises. One, I know it can be worse because my parents lived in worse. My parents grew up in Jim Crow, Mississippi. So no matter what I faced, I know there are things that could be worse. But I also know there's no such thing as relative pain. The pain people feel today is real and relevant and it matters. But what I'm not willing to do is wait for better or fight for better without doing something to get good done. Now, we can do both. And we can't give up one, though, hoping that the other will work.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So just so I hear what you're saying, you can participate to do good now, to hopefully get better later.

[Stacey Abrams]

I protest.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I vote you tell a story about your parents growing up and your parents told you having nothing is not an excuse for doing nothing. That is very different than what I was taught growing up as an Indian American, which is go to school, get into med school, become an orthopedic surgeon. Get your fucking bag. What made your parents so benevolent? And why are Indians so selfish?

[Stacey Abrams]

I told you earlier on, I do not take bait. But I will take the opportunity to celebrate my parents.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay? But I'm here to tell you, anyone who's doing foot and ankle surgery ain't doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

[Stacey Abrams]

They could be in a low income community. Okay, so my mom and dad both grew up abject poverty. My dad says he grew up on the wrong side of town. My mom grew up on the wrong side of the wrong side of town. But they grew up both with a very strong belief that not only were they entitled to more, but they were responsible to make sure that other people had more. My parents do not believe in zero sum success. They believe that if they do for others, if they do for themselves, if they do for community, we are all lifted up and we're all better.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What is often called, in financial terms, a poverty mindset. To not look at the world as a zero sum thing, it's truly incredible. Your parents were incredible people.

[Stacey Abrams]

They are remarkable people. Who? I was getting lectured by one of them recently and I'm like, it's your fault. Like, you made us this way. My parents told us, go to church, go to school, take care of each other. My mom would say, no matter how little you have, there's someone with less. Your job is to serve that person. That service lifts you both up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to talk about your new podcast. Maybe this feeds into that. It's called Assembly Required. What's it about?

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required is about the fact that we have big, overwhelming, complicated problems and we cannot fix it all. So the fantastic movie Everything Everywhere all at Once. Great title, terrible mission statement. We can't fix everything everywhere all at once, but we can fix something somewhere soon. The issue is, how do you fix it? And my approach is you've got to first be curious. You got to know what the problem is, then you've got to try to solve the problem, and then you got to do good. When you're doing this, you want to know what the problem is, why is it a problem, how do you solve it? And the best way to do that is to ask people. Find out who's working on it, but also find the part of the problem that you can actually fix. The big, terrible problems we're not gonna get solved overnight. But if we can find the pieces that get us in the game, that get us started, that help us wedge open the issue, that's where we start to make real change.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You are famous for writing romance novels. I wanted to ask your opinion. Did you see me in the new hit film It Ends With Us? And what did you think of my performance?

[Stacey Abrams]

I wanna talk about my new podcast, Simply Required, which is about how we build the world we need.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Stacey Abrams. I think you didn't watch the movie.

[Stacey Abrams]

I think you are an incredibly intuitive and astute guy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Stacey Abrams, thank you so much.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This was such an honor.

[Stacey Abrams]

This is my delight.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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