The Republican Road to Hell with Tim Miller

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Republican Road to Hell with Tim Miller"

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
Host: Hasan Minhaj
Guest: Tim Miller
Release Date: May 14, 2025

In this insightful episode of "Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know," comedian and political commentator Hasan Minhaj engages in a candid conversation with Tim Miller, a seasoned Republican strategist known for his behind-the-scenes work with prominent figures like John McCain and Jeb Bush. As a self-identified "Never Trumper," Miller offers a unique perspective on the transformation of the Republican Party and the pervasive influence of Donald Trump.

---

1. Tim Miller’s Political Journey and Identity

[00:51 - 01:20]

Hasan Minhaj opens the discussion by highlighting Tim Miller’s evolution within the Republican Party. Despite their political differences, Minhaj expresses a desire for a "good faith conversation" to understand how the party has shifted over the years.

Tim Miller:
"I think that the most acute crisis that we have right now is Donald Trump and his movement... a shared negative polarization towards what Donald Trump and his ilk are doing."
[01:20]

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2. The Turning Point: Breaking Away from Trumpism

[02:23 - 04:59]

Miller recounts his decisive break from the Republican mainstream with the advent of Trump’s rhetoric and policies. His disillusionment began when Trump first made derogatory remarks about him and his colleagues, signaling a shift towards a more divisive and aggressive political stance.

Tim Miller:
"The moment he opened his mouth pretty much."
[02:24]

Miller elaborates on specific instances where Trump’s rhetoric on immigration and his inflammatory statements clashed with Miller’s foundational beliefs in American inclusivity and respect.

Tim Miller:
"His opening announcement speech was about rapists and murderers... I just find that type of politics, like, despicable."
[04:59]

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3. The Decline of Old-School Republicanism

[05:04 - 14:27]

Delving deeper, Miller contrasts the old-school Republican values embodied by figures like John McCain and Jeb Bush with the current Trump-led faction. He praises McCain’s integrity and Bush’s genuine policy intentions, highlighting their commitment to economic success and social programs, albeit with some reservations about tax cuts for the wealthy.

Tim Miller:
"Jeb knew what he wanted... He really did care about people. He wanted to have policy fights."
[12:24]

Miller emphasizes that unlike Trump, these leaders aimed to balance the interests of the party's base with broader national principles, fostering a more respectful and policy-driven discourse.

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4. The Rise of Culture Wars and Nativism

[14:27 - 26:39]

Miller discusses the shift towards culture wars as a strategic tactic employed by the Republican Party to consolidate its base. He attributes this radicalization to the influence of figures like Sarah Palin, who introduced more nativist and divisive rhetoric into mainstream Republican politics.

Tim Miller:
"There is a culture out there of Hollywood and New York and like, these guys all don't care about you. And we are going to go after them and we're going to give them... We're going to punish them."
[26:39]

This section underscores how cultural and identity-based conflicts have become central to the party's strategy, moving away from purely policy-oriented debates.

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5. Media’s Role and Public Perception

[29:27 - 42:38]

Miller critiques the current media landscape, highlighting how exaggerated and sensationalist approaches (e.g., his heated debate with Tomi Lahren) contribute to polarization without fostering meaningful dialogue. He contrasts this with historical debates that, despite their intensity, provided educational value and deeper insights.

Tim Miller:
"We live in a very fractured world, and I think that people need to hear from the other side and, like, hear another point of view, hear other perspectives and hash it out."
[46:20]

He stresses the importance of constructive engagement over sensationalism to bridge the ideological divide.

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6. Future of the Republican and Democratic Parties

[37:33 - 46:20]

Looking ahead, Miller expresses concerns about the sustainability of the current Republican trajectory. He warns of potential economic decline and international isolation if the party continues on its Trump-influenced path.

Tim Miller:
"We probably are gonna end up in a place like, where... my middle scenario is that, like, we retrench and become more like France or Germany, but without this... or it could turn into more like Turkey or Hungary."
[16:26]

Regarding the Democratic Party, Miller sees an opportunity for reinvention, suggesting that the party could embrace a vision akin to Bernie Sanders' populism or innovative leadership like Mark Cuban to better address the nation's challenges.

Tim Miller:
"I believe that person could be some center left... somebody's got to like grab it by the horns and we kind of have to see how things shake out."
[44:02]

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7. Personal Reflections and Mission

[46:20 - 54:05]

Addressing his personal mission, Miller discusses leveraging his experience to combat misinformation and foster informed political engagement. He emphasizes the need for resilience and strategic action to counteract the destructive tendencies of the current political climate.

Tim Miller:
"I want people to be a little bit less inclined towards fear or towards checking out and more inclined towards punching back."
[46:20]

He advocates for grassroots activism and strategic communication as essential tools in the fight against political extremism.

---

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[54:05 - End]

The episode concludes with Hasan Minhaj reflecting on the complexities of modern political discourse, acknowledging the challenges of maintaining substantive dialogue in an era dominated by sensationalism and polarized debates. Despite the discord, both hosts express a commitment to seeking understanding and fostering constructive political engagement.

Tim Miller:
"It's quite cool to be on the guest list... as long as you have access and that's what gives him meaning."
[53:26]

Hasan Minhaj:
"I wanted your perspective on someone who worked within the machine to tell us how the machine works... find meaning, see things with clarity, and then make decisions accordingly."
[54:09]

---

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller on Trump’s Impact:
  "Donald Trump and his movement have a chance of tearing down everything that we hold dear."
  [01:20]

• Tim Miller on Old-School Republicans:
  "Jeb knew what he wanted... He really did care about people."
  [12:24]

• Tim Miller on Culture Wars:
  "We are going to go after them and we're going to give them... We're going to punish them."
  [26:39]

• Tim Miller on Political Party Future:
  "We probably are gonna end up in a place like... we retrench and become more like France or Germany... or it could turn into more like Turkey or Hungary."
  [16:26]

• Tim Miller on Personal Mission:
  "I want people to be a little bit less inclined towards fear or towards checking out and more inclined towards punching back."
  [46:20]

---

Key Insights:

• Evolution of the Republican Party: Tim Miller provides a first-hand account of how the Republican Party has transformed from a platform centered on policy and respectful discourse to one heavily influenced by Trump’s populist and divisive rhetoric.

• Impact of Culture Wars: The strategic use of culture wars has been pivotal in galvanizing the Republican base, often at the expense of substantive policy debates and national unity.

• Media’s Role in Polarization: The current media environment, with its emphasis on sensationalism and personality-driven narratives, exacerbates political polarization and undermines meaningful dialogue.

• Future Outlook for U.S. Politics: Miller foresees challenges for both major parties, emphasizing the need for the Democratic Party to reinvent itself while cautioning against the potential decline of Republican values under Trumpism.

• Personal Responsibility and Activism: Both hosts underscore the importance of informed political engagement and activism as essential responses to the current political climate.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the internal dynamics and external influences shaping the modern Republican Party, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the political shifts that have led to the current landscape. Tim Miller's insights as a former Republican insider shed light on the critical factors driving partisan polarization and the urgent need for strategic political reform.

Transcript

[Hasan Minhaj]

Lemonade. Before Donald Trump showed up, Tim Miller was one of the most in demand hired guns in Washington, D.C. working behind the scenes to help prominent Republicans like John McCain and Jeb Bush not get elected president. But today, he identifies as a very particular kind of conservative. He's one of those never Trumpers. These are people who have supported Republicans in the past, but Donald Trump was a step too far. Yeah, they were cool with the lowering taxes on the rich and cutting programs for the poor, but they didn't want to be so damn mean. Even though Tim and I have some political differences, I wanted to have a good faith conversation about our current political moment and how the evolution of the Republican Party led us to where we are today. Hurry right away.

[Tim Miller]

No delays are the.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We've been trying to get more conservative voices on the show. So thank you for pulling up. And I do want to say this, I don't want to put words in your mouth right now, but how would you identify now politically? How do you say? I mean, are we sure I'm light? Are we conservative Democrat?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I've kind of aspiring Canadian, too cold. I'm going south if I gotta leave.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, got it.

[Tim Miller]

This is where I'm at, man. I think that the most acute crisis that we have right now is Donald Trump and his movement. And I think that it has a chance of tearing down everything that we hold dear, whether you are a progressive leftist or whether you are a never Trumper conservative or like anything in between. And I think that in conversations like I'm trying to find common ground with anybody that fits within that rubric and we can focus on that. And maybe that common ground actually isn't in this moment like a shared positive vision for what's to come, but it is a shared negative polarization towards what Donald Trump and his ilk are doing. And I think that's a good step one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You talk about common ground and I remember the kind of, so I'm 39, the common political conversation that was around finding common ground, being bipartisan, reaching across the aisle. You're part of the original kind of movement of what I would call 80s, 90s and 2000s Republicanism. He used to work for Jeb bush and John McCain. Yeah, we're going to get into that.

[Tim Miller]

My people are gone.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But, but I want to ask you, where did Trump lose you? What, what part of Donald Trump's policy positions or rhetoric? When did he get you to hop off the train?

[Tim Miller]

The moment he opened his mouth pretty much. There's an old quote you probably found of Trump shitting on me back in 2012, before he even ran in 2016, because he was flirting with running. He was trying to have a debate. I was working for John Huntsman at the time. He was the most moderate of the Republicans in that field. We finished in last place, which was kind of an early warning sign that I was maybe misaligned from the party because me and Huntsman agreed on everything. So, anyway, Trump wanted to host a debate, and I put out a statement on behalf of Huntsman that was like, we would never go to a debate that this clown is hosting or something. Is this on Twitter or.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Where did you guys put this?

[Tim Miller]

I know, it's like, this is old days, man. I sent a statement to the reporter for ABC News.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No way.

[Tim Miller]

And the ABC News reporter called Trump. And Trump's like, tim Miller is a loser, and we'll never hear from him again. And neither. And same with Jon Huntsman. I. I don't have the exact quote memorized, but it's something to that effect. So when he came down the escalator, I was standing outside a Bed, Bath and Beyond. Cause I just moved to Miami to work for Jeb, and I was screaming one at a time at Jake Tapper and Sean Hannity and everybody about, like, why are you giving this guy coverage? Fuck you. Like, he's a joke. He's a clown. So from minute one, like, he was a nothing for me in particular, though. It is like, the cruelty and the racism and the UN American view of, like, immigrant, of immigration. Because, like, to me, like, my origin story. I'm a little older than you, but, like. So you were around for Elian. Were you Elian Gonzalez? Cuban? Sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, of course, right?

[Tim Miller]

Like, this was like, my. I'm coming into politics in the 90s as a young person. And I loved, like, the shining city on a hill. America's the land of milk and honey. And, like, this big thing happens where this kid, this boy, floats across the Gulf and is fleeing Communism, comes to America, and it's the Clinton administration then that raid his house with guns pointing at him. And they're like, no, you gotta go back. I was like, no, this is bullshit. We should be welcoming people. This is the Statue of Liberty.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you remember having that feeling as a young man?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like, this was like, what drew me to the Republican Party, some of the other stuff. But it was like, Republicans love America and think that this part of America, that we're this melting pot where people come from everywhere to achieve their dream. Like, I loved all that corny stuff, right? Totally. And so Trump is, like anathema to that. So, like, that core element to me of what being American is, his opening announcement speech was about rapists and murderers and they have cantaloupe legs and, like, how they all. We all need to send them all back and we need to build a wall. And I just, like, I just find that type of politics, like, despicable.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You were in your late 20s and 30s, where you were climbing the ranks in your political career.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to kind of get into the mindset because I grew up in Northern California, which is progressive, but also there is a very strong conservative base. And the way I identify a lot of my friends and their parents that were conservative, it's just kind of classic old school Republican. You know, they love Jesus. They're not so cool with Jesus. Do you kind of get what I'm saying?

[Tim Miller]

I get what you're saying. I don't know if I would define that as old school Republican, but. All right, I know the type.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. What part of you identified with the kind of old school Republicanism?

[Tim Miller]

So two things that are happening. One is earnest and one is very cynical or happening at the same time. So I'm just gonna recant it with you. Sure. The earnest part was, like, I said, the Reagan shining city on the Hill stuff. America is great. I loved. The more I've met some rich people, I found out that most of them aren't like my dad, but my dad was, like, worked really hard up from his bootstraps. Like, he should feel like he should get to keep the money that he earned. Right. I bought into that. I did do think a lot of stuff the government does is kind of dumb. Right. So, like, that part was, like, the initial thing that appealed me, like, those kind of elements less. The Jesus part. Sure. And then what really happened was in the early 2000s, when I started politics, like, the stakes felt pretty low. Man, I love sports. I started to think about it, like, sports, like, I wanted to win. I liked the competition of it. And I was like, I'm gonna fight for my team, and we're gonna try to win. And, you know, whatever happens, happens. And I obviously look back on this with some regret, but I think that was, like, a very common thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

To give you a little bit of credit here, though, you have been consistently anti Trump for a very long time. In 2015, at the primaries, apparently you sparred with Corey Lewandowski.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Who was one of, I guess, you know, maybe 18 campaign managers that he's had at any given point.

[Tim Miller]

He was first.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What happened? He hip checked you?

[Tim Miller]

He hip checked me, yeah. So look, I'm just going to step back one second to give people context. So Jeb drops out.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Womp, womp. The next day, some rich guys call me and they're like, we need a point person to be the spokesperson for, like, a Republicans Conservatives Against Trump pac. It was called Our Principles Pack. And I was like, hell, yeah. And, like, everybody in my life was like, you're crazy. Like, he. Like, why? Like, he. What if he wins? And, like, then you'll be ostracized. I'm like, this asshole's not going to win and you have, so fuck him. You know, So I just did it. Like, I quit. The job thing ended. I was on the beach one day and I started the anti Trump spokesman thing the next day. And so what I started to do is basically troll him. Like, I was going on TV and I was sparring with other Trump surrogates, and then I would go to the debates into the spin room, and I'd, like, follow him around and, like, you know, troll him. Try to, like, try to, like, get in his thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, you had the.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, I had the badge.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You had the badge.

[Tim Miller]

And so you're just like, okay, it still works. I had the badge in one of the cases. I knew the girl in charge of the badges, and I butted her up and she gave me a VIP into a section I shouldn't have been in.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Tim Miller]

Trump was coming towards me and I just see her look and be like, oh, oh, shit. Then we started yelling at each other and Trump's like, nice job with Jeb. Nice job on msnbc. Nice job with Jeb. You're a loser. And I was like, you make all your ties in China? Oh, yeah, he's following me. Trump watches TV more than anybody. Like, I wasn't even on TV that much back then. But, like, Trump knew me from daytime MSNBC hits. He knows. He knows the whole roster. Jacob Soboroff. You know, he could name them. He could go down the list. Katie Tur. He knows all of them. He can drop the whole roster off's got great hair, but. Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Shout out to J. You got great hair.

[Tim Miller]

He can do deep cut.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. How did you feel when. When that kind of hip check happened in a. In a press room.

[Tim Miller]

His breath was really bad is the thing that, like, really is what I remember the most. Like, Corey had very bad, rancid breath. At first I got kind of mad. I got like, My back up a little bit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you want to pick up the gloves?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I haven't been in a lot of fights. I'm gay, you know, Most of the fights I was in in high school and college were usually my mouth followed by, like, my friend's fists. Not very many with my fists. I don't want to try to pretend like I'm a tough guy. I'm like, fuck, what should I do? And then I looked around and I was like, oh, wait, everybody saw that, right? And so then I started smiling. So I was kind of like, oh, yeah, that's gonna be bad for you. You know, you're gonna have to deal with a story tomorrow of all these reporters writing about how, like, you randomly assaulted me. And it was like, around a time he also had, like, sexually assaulted a woman back in those days. I thought there would be accountability for things such as this. I was like, maybe Corey will suffer consequences from that type of behavior. Didn't turn out to be no uniquely.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Teflon in that way.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I wanna also talk to you about this before you got here. I just really was meaning to ask you, what was it specifically about both Jeb Bush and John McCain that made you go, hey, look, I gotta go all in. And I. And I. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna go this distance with this guy. There has to be something extremely compelling about their kind of philosophy or who they are or what they're fighting for.

[Tim Miller]

I was younger for McCain, and to be honest with McCain, it was more of the cynical side. I was really ambitious, and he was kind of the favorite early in 2008. And. But, man, you know, when McCain really got me was I had been kind of thoughtlessly pro Guantanamo, just like, not, like, actively. It's not like I had a Guantanamo, you know, tattoo or T shirt like, f these guys. But I was like, I don't know. This seems probably better than not.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But what was the reason? The reasoning was that there just needed to be, like, a. An island that was essentially a black site that denied human beings fair trials.

[Tim Miller]

The reason was. The reason was these guys bombed us. And, like, we got to hold them to accountable. We got to do what we have to do, what we have to do. And what are we going to do? Bring these guys into courts in America? A lot of these guys aren't in America. Like, what is the other.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are you not familiar with the ICC or the icj?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I am. I was familiar with it. Hasan. As I said, I was softly, thoughtfully, thoughtlessly Pro Guantana. McCain gives a town hall. One of the first. When I first started working for him, when somebody asked him about that, why are you against this? Like, you know, America? Hell, yeah. And he gave, like, the best, most thoughtful answer, like, going back to his service and his time in the Hanoi Hilton and how this is not America and how America is better than this. And I got. Man, I thought that was such a bold thing to do, like, in a Republican primary, when it's like, Bush was still kind of popular then. It wasn't like, these days and, like, his, like, willingness to just kind of eff it and be honest and be himself and make these, like, appeals to the better angels of the country. He earned my love that day. And so I went to the map for him all the way through the end. Jeb, man. The Jeb thing was interesting because I was more of like, a. Whatever this is gonna humble brag. It was more of, like, a hot commodity. Then, like, all of them wanted me basically, like, just because. To do the PR flacking bullshit. And so I met with all of them. I met with Scott Walker, and I always asked them the, you know, kind of the question I didn't know that you're supposed to ask politicians, which is like, why do you want to be president? Like, what's the. You know, what's the reason? The question Ted Kennedy famously failed. And Scott Walker's answer honestly could have been given by, like, the college Republican head at UW lacrosse. And it had, like, zero depth of or anything. Like, none of the McCain stuff. And I followed up with him, and I was like, but, I mean, I hear that you on the talking points, but, like, why you? And he goes, isn't that why I'm hiring you? And I was like, no, no, no. I'm 32. Like, I don't know shit. Like, you're hiring me to spin.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, you're the. Yeah, you're the one vision, the purpose, the direction.

[Tim Miller]

I met with J. And Jeb knew what he wanted. Me and Joe didn't agree on every issue, but Jeb had been governor of Florida. He really did care about people. He thought that his policy vision, you know, was going to, like, help people get more economic success. And he was genuine about it. He cared about it. He wanted to have policy fights. It's like, opposite from McCain. Like, I love Jev in private. Like, in private, he was super just curious and, like, wanted to be the best, like, actual president, policy wise. He could be like, progressives wouldn't have liked the policies, but that he Thought, you know, that you could convince him. And I loved that about that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You remind me of something that it just, again, it rings true with so many people that I grew up with that are still lifelong Republicans. There is this vision of the old school Republicanism that they love. They were totally cool with the, you know, the tax cuts for the rich and the bombing of Iran and the Nicaraguan death squads. But they're like, you know what? At least Nancy and Ronald Reagan are sweet people. They didn't curse. This is the kind of the way.

[Tim Miller]

You describe other good stuff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're describing Jeb and the Bush family a little bit. Am I assessing that? Right.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I mean, there is a decorum. I would have maybe put it a little more generously, but yes, there was a decorum. He cared, like, he wanted what was best for people. Trump is like a malignant narcissist. He doesn't care about anybody except Trump. Like, Jeb really did. He really wanted schools to be better. Not everybody was going to like what his. His proposals for how to do that. Like, when the Florida criminal justice system was broke, he went and spent like six months in between campaigns, like, sitting in children's court hearings and, you know, like the court hearings for people that were, like, getting treated poorly by the system and, like, meeting with them. Like, he, he cared. He fucking cared. He did think the government should be smaller. He did want tax cuts for rich people. I've become less sympathetic to that as I've met more rich people in the post Jeb era. But, like, at the time, I felt like he would do a good job at the job of president. The blocking and tackling part, obviously, you know, like, he wasn't as good at the campaigning part.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure, I try to on this show, and this is difficult, but I really. It's kind of who I am, man. I try to have an optimistic worldview. I try to take a longer, dare I say, S&P 500 view of optimism. Also think because I have two kids, seven and five, hey, look, I have to at least help participate and be part of something that is better for them. Nihilism is kind of a coward's choice out. And it would be irresponsible for me as a father to them if I actually didn't believe and try to make things better in the small ways that I can. That being said, I've seen your other interviews. You talk your shit. So I've taken 5 milligrams of Xanax. I am ready for you to be my human doom scroll and Talk about where we're at right now. What is the worst case scenario of what we're going through right now that is uniquely fucking crazy?

[Tim Miller]

I don't think what people are really prepared for is if the dollar is no longer the world reserve currency, a lot of the benefits we've gained from the US World order are going to start to go away real fucking fast. I kind of think we're already here. I think that the world is going to get reordered around us. The Europeans and the Canadians and the Australians are going to think they're more reliable partners. The Russians and the Chinese are never going to be reliable partners for us. And I think that we're gonna be very alone, and I think that we're gonna decline economically in ways that's gonna hurt a lot of people. And I think we probably are gonna end up in a place like, where kind of my middle. Like, not my optimistic scenario, but my middle scenario is that, like, we retrench and become more like a France or a Germany, but without this, like, social democracy obligations. But I've seen, like, in the. What role we play, like. Like where we're kind of just like one of the other nations, I think potentially it could turn into more like a Turkey or a Hungary type situation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, wow, That's a big gap.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Quite a big gap. Yeah. And they're both significantly worse than our current situation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

France, Turkey is a pretty big gap in what.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm saying, like, France is kind of like my good. That's a good outcome, I think, for me. You know, ostensibly there's another media tour happening around the abundance guys, Ezra and them, like, they're. Oh, yeah, okay. You know, they're envisioning a future that's, like, even more optimistic for our country where people are, you know, there's more wealth that is distributed to people at all scales of the income bracket. And we're, you know, we're solving a lot of problems and solving health problems, and AI is leading us to a new future. Like, I don't know, man. I think that it's much more likely right now that we're in a retrenchment mode.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why don't any hardcore Trump supporters believe any of what you're saying? Why do they have this sort of, you don'tget it.gov interpretation of all these warning signs? Yeah, the 4D chess people.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, some of them are in a cult. And, you know, I don't know if you've had a friend in your life who has maybe not Gotten into a cult, but, like, gotten financially into a bad situation. Like, they cut it. You know, somebody told them they could get in early on this new thing and they gave a little more money than they should have.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And hardcore bitcoin heads had this during COVID Sure.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And then you go to them and be like, you got scammed. What's their reaction going to be? To get mad at the person that scammed them or get mad at you? Most of the time they get mad at you. And so I just, I don't think that, like, they're going to listen to. I don't think I'm a credible messenger or you, for that matter, or anybody on that has been anti Trump. So some of them are in a cult and have gotten scammed and don't want to be told. Others of them actually haven't suffered consequences yet. Really, like, meaningful ones. Some people had friends and loved ones die of COVID but they've convinced themselves that that was the Chinese or who knows, the vaccine or whatever. Besides that, like, economic consequences. Most of them, like, their lives didn't really change that much. Like Trump, maybe they had a little more money to spend before COVID And then Covid happened. They come out of it and then they blame Biden. Right. And so I do think there are.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Some people who actually doesn't happen on the left. So, for example, I was living in the Bay Area during the first Obama Hope tour and I had friends that had the full Shepard Ferry poster on the wall.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But they still wouldn't give him passes on every issue. They still. The drones, Guantanamo Bay, Edward Snowden, they're not standing for it. Dare I say they're still willing to be like, that was fucked up. Yep. Fucked up, too. Why does that exist? Perhaps with criticism of Democratic candidates, but specifically with critiques of Trump? It doesn't work. It's quite Teflon. It's like, no, you don't get it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So you gotta start by saying part of this is Trump unique because that wasn't true for Bush. A lot of Republicans had a lot of complaints about Bush, and his numbers did go down with the Republicans.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And those critiques stuck.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, and those critiques stuck. You know, I asked a Republican consultant one time, like, this very question, like, what do you think it would take for, like, the candidates that you consult to be able to feel free to start criticizing Trump? And his answer was, when his numbers go down at the core base? Because when Bush's numbers went down after Iraq and Katrina, his numbers went down with Everybody, you know, Trump, even at his bad times, when his numbers go down with independents and Democrats, the guy said he's like, he has Saddam Hussein like, numbers out in West Texas. So my guys aren't going to say anything until. Until those numbers go down. So it's a Trump unique thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So speaking of Saddam and Gaddafi and shout out to all the dictators, dictators out there, do you think he's going to run for a third term?

[Tim Miller]

Man, I think there's a chance. And that is totally insane and disqualifying. Like, I don't have a crystal ball, but you're telling me that this guy, he's going to be 81, then he's mentally deteriorating, he's losing his grip on power. Might he try something crazy? I don't know. He doesn't seem to me like he wants to go back to, you know, his retirement ranch in paint, like, W. So I think there's a chance. Is it definite? Who knows? I don't know exactly how things are gonna shake out. But I'll tell you this. If I had, like showed any people a picture of the Capitol on January 6th at this time, so it would have been April of 2017, and I was like, this is how it ends. Everybody would have been like, you're insane. You have Trump deranged. Like, there's no way it will be like this. So, like, my view is, I think that the tail risk, like the worst case outcomes are worse than people can even comprehend right now. Whether that is him running for a third term or some other bad outcome, I don't know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[C]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to talk about how we got here, though.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Let's talk about the. Your 2022 book, why We Did It, A travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell. Tim, when did the Republicans take the exit to hell?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the exit was nominating Trump, but it was a long off ramp, I guess. I don't know. To beat this metaphor to death. I don't. I focused on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You were doing a lot of drug metaphors too, in the book, by the way.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, really?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Did I show a little familiarity?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No. Do. I can tell you the quote, but why don't you answer first?

[Tim Miller]

I focused on the time that I experienced. Right. I'm sure you could go back and say that people could have seen this with Rush or people could have seen this with Spiro Agnew. Right. Like, there are elements of this that go way back. Buchanan obviously is like a great precursor to this, but he lost, you know, but you know, there's a lot of Trumpism in Buchanan. But for me, it was Palin because the pick was so obviously disqualified. Like, she was so obviously disqualifying. It was absurd to think that this person could be president of the United States of a very old president, had a health problem. John McCain, like, he ended up having. It would have been after a term, but she was clownish. She was, you know, like at least racism adjacent, like maybe downright racist at various times, you know, did not appreciate the American history and like, the types of things that we've. That every president of both parties has had, you know, you know, at least in our lifetimes or our parents lifetimes. So to me, it's like the fact that not only did everybody go along with that, but that the energy was greater at Palin rallies than at McCain rallies. To me, like, that was the germ, where it was like, not only did people go along with this ridiculous person as vice president, but we found out that Republican voters wanted that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You talk about this in the book. Once the audience began to learn that hard drugs were an option, they weren't going to be interested in the meat or potatoes any longer. They wanted to chase the dragon. And there were enough back alley dealers willing to give it to them. I mean, that's a good paragraph. This is a good paragraph written by quite a good writer, Tom Miller. But what was that? Are you saying that kind of that racism, that bigotry was the booger sugar, the devil's dandruff that they started feeding out?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. The chowder Heisenberg blue. Yeah, the Heiseberg blue. Yeah, man. The racism is kind of the short way to say it, but really, just like this culture war, full on. And this goes back to Buchanan. Like, Buchanan gave his convention speech saying that, like, we need to engage in a culture war. That's what this was. So it's across a lot of verticals. Some of it is race, of course, Some of it is misogyny. Some of it is people, men, losing power in society. But it is, you know, it is also what we're seeing now manifest, right? Going after the big D.C. law firms. Fuck those guys. The elites, you know, going after the people with green cards. There's the racism again, right? But like, it is this. There is a culture out there of Hollywood and New York and like, these guys all don't care about you. And we are going to go after them and we are going to give them, we're going to punish them, you know, and we're not going to work with them. So to me, like, that is like, you know, the really, you know, tapping the vein. It's like, no more of this. Like, oh, we're going to advance our policies. We're going to work with them. No, we're going to beat them and punish them, and they are gonna suffer what we have suffered, which is this imaginary loss of our culture, etc.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you were saying that basically kind of Sarah Palin was the tremor before the earthquake. That was Donald Trump. But McCain famously hated Palin. What specifically about Sarah Palin? Did he just go like, I'm not into this.

[Tim Miller]

Poor John McCain. I know it's just such a bad call, but he felt like he was.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It the binoculars and I can see.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know what it was. Look, he felt like he had. He was always defensive of her because it was about him kind of. You know what I mean? It was about his own choice. And so I think it was pretty obvious to a lot of people. Pretty, you know, in his inner circle, they were the ones that really hated her. You know, the, you know, my friend Nicole Wallace, Suzanne Ms. And Steve Schmidt. And like, that crowd, like, the top. I was still young then. Like, the inner circle, inner sanctum was like, they were just astonished at how both unprepared but also incurious she was. You know, it was like, it'd be one thing. It's like, we pick somebody that's not quite ready, but they care about this country and they care about the Constitution. They care about the job. And it's like, put me through boot camp, coach. Like, I'm going to get ready. And she was kind of like, eh, whatever. You know, whatever.

[Hasan Minhaj]

When you look at that, do you ever just go like, you know what? Like, Sarah Palin walked so that Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Where you're just like, I saw the blueprint here.

[Tim Miller]

I think Sarah Palin would have won the Republican primary in 2012 if she ran. I'm convinced of it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You really believe it?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. That's my counterfactual. I don't know if she would have been a better or worse than Trump for everybody or what that would have meant for Trump in 2016. But if you look at that field, Romney, like one with like 42%, 45% of the vote, I think, but he's running against, you know, the decaying corpse of Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum. Like, there was no energy on the populist conservative side. Like, none of those candidates were strong. They had Palin running against Romney. Yeah, you're telling me Romney would have Beat her head to head. I think. No way.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I want to talk about a particular moment in the book that I just thought was so interesting. Look, I've always had this gut feeling that the country and the powers that be in each political party, the empire at large, kind of knows what it's doing. And the degree to which America says the quiet part out loud is just a volume game. And sometimes, whether it's Sarah Palin or Marjorie Taylor Greene, it's just about turning up the volume. If Sarah Palin was a 7, Marjorie Taylor Greene's a 12. Like, it's just, let's crank it up. But fundamentally, the bpm, the beats, and the lyrics are essentially the same. You talk about a very interesting campaign ad in your book in 2010 that John McCain played during the campaign trail. That so represents this volume thing that was a little diet of what we're seeing now. Okay, so what we're about to play right now is an old school Republican campaign ad. This is John McCain from 2010 talking about being strong on the border. And he has a pretty famous catchphrase in this ad. Let's take a look.

[Tim Miller]

Drug and human smuggling, home invasions, murder.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We're outmanned. Of all the illegals in America, more than half come through Arizona. Have we got the right plan? Plan's perfect. You bring troops, state, county, and local law enforcement together and complete the dang fence. It'll work this time.

[Tim Miller]

Time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Senator, you're one of us.

[Tim Miller]

I'm John McCain and I approve this message. Yeah, it's not a great ad.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please explain this half assed diet py version of Build the Wall. What's going on? Because even his look in the commercial is I'm like, do you want to do this commercial?

[Tim Miller]

No. He didn't want to be there. You can tell. You could tell. You could tell, brother. I can tell. He did.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, if he came in to screen test, I'd be like, he's. We don't cast him at the producer session.

[Tim Miller]

He didn't want to be there, man. This was. This was a survival ad. Survival of John McCain, which was the party. Like, there was just this animating desire in this moment. And then again now to target immigrants. At times, it was your people that were on the receiving end. But like in that moment, in this, it was immigrants were the main group and there was this huge momentum. God, I wish you would have warned me because I'm blanking on the guy's name. But this, like, you know, this early version of. Of Trump really was primary ing him and was, like, gaining momentum.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Kind of like Tea Party guy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. This was in the Senate and not in the presidential race. And this was kind of a way to just be like, can we stop the bleeding here? Like, am I really gonna lose to this guy? Because people think that I'm gonna let every person from Central America into the country. Can I demonstrate that I do want a secure border? And how can there be a line that people can remember? It's like, no. That they can say, you know, at church or whatever. When guys are like, I can't vote for McCain, they can be like, yeah, he said he's going to complete the dang fence. You know, And I think that was, like, the thinking behind it. Execution was horrible. So not great. Just really quick, though, going back to your original premise about the bpm.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, let's talk about that. About the quiet part versus it being out loud. But the lyrics are the same. Yeah, yeah. It's just how hard they're just fucking jamming.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Talk to me. I've been on Panic Tour. The difference, to me, and maybe this is a distinction without a difference, is intentions. And I guess it comes down to the question of, like, do you actually believe that good intentions matter when your actions don't reflect them? And I think that that's an open question. I'm open for people to tell me, no, that good intentions don't matter and that, you know. You know, the road to hell is paved with them or whatever. But McCain and Bush and, like, the people that were doing it then, like, they're trying to balance this complicated country. Right. And, like, they're trying to say, how can I come up with some policies that will. That will get the people that are rabid, that are nativists, off my back and even get them to support me, while also, like, advancing these broader kind of principles that the vast majority of the country believes in. And to me, like, that's the difference between John McCain and Marjorie Taylor Greene, not the BPMS.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's walk through this, because I'm trying to unpack this as well. There's a very, very powerful moment where John McCain was at a 2008 town hall.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sure you're familiar with this. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Where that older woman was like, I am not voting for Barack Obama. He's an Arab. Let's take a look at this. The famous he's an Arab clip. I can't trust Obama. I have read about him, and he's not.

[Tim Miller]

He's not.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's a. He's an Arab.

[Tim Miller]

He is not.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, ma' am.

[Tim Miller]

No, ma' am. No, ma' am.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's a decent family man, citizen that.

[Tim Miller]

I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues. And that's what this campaign is all about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's not. Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, this is Dr. Frankenstein being attacked by the monster that he created for sure. What did you think about this moment at that time? Take me in the room where this is all happening in 2008. Again, this is your interpret at that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. At that time, I was always a pessimistic Patty on campaigns, just as I am about the future of Trump. I knew we were going to lose by the time this happened. I knew McCain was going to lose by the time this happened. And so I was kind of proud of him. Like, I thought it was a good moment. It was nice that he did that. At the same time, I was like, among those that were horrified with the Palin stuff. I like the crowd, like the. The Frankenstein and the monster thing. The crowds got out of control that fall. Like, it was untenable. That lady was not an outlier, you know, and McCain wanted to have these town hall type things and their conversations in the campaign. Do you take him out of his element? He wasn't good at speeches. Right. So, like, how do you manage this? Do we control. Can you control the questioning better? You know, like all of that was happening and it ends. He doesn't let Palin speak on at the concession speech. Right. To me, that was actually the most moving thing. More than that moment was he goes out to give a concession speech and talks about how he's rooting for Obama and how he wants Obama to win. And some in the crowd start booing at the concession speech and he's like. And he's like, telling them no, you know, tamping them down. And he's trying to control this thing. And then Palin wants to go out there and obviously she would do the opposite. And so they didn't let her.

[Hasan Minhaj]

For me, it's a moment where I'm seeing this and every kind of brown person that I know that saw this moment was, oh, America is accepting the premise that brown people are terrorists.

[Tim Miller]

I would be more generous to make this so in part, man, you do this stuff live. Like, you know, he's in this moment. Like, he's freelancing, man. So I don't know. I think that he was trying to tamp it down. I don't know that he's accepting the premise I understand what you're saying.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm not voting for a DEI president. And she goes, ma' am, I promise you, he can read. It's the fact that the party is willing to accept the premise. You're just saying the quiet part out loud. It was a little bit quiet there, but we're just seeing the. We're now just seeing all caps, full tweet.

[Tim Miller]

Can we give somebody credit for trying? I hear you, man. Can we get a participation trophy in here, man? I understand how it could be viewed that way. I do not think that was his intention. And that goes back to my question about good intentions. It's like, does that. Does that matter? Once you've picked Sarah Palin and once you're running a campaign that uses some of these themes, I would open to the fact that, like, progressives or liberals would say, no, actually, the intentions don't matter. And there's something to be said about knowing your fucking opponent and having them be fully themselves, like Donald Trump. And I think that is. We're in that moment now. I would prefer the other way.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As someone who worked in that machine, is there something uniquely about the War on terror that radicalized the Republican base?

[Tim Miller]

Obviously, there's some very radical policies that were passed during the war on terror that, that there's a lot. Republicans have a lot of, like, the Republicans instituted them. Some of them at least have regrets about. And I think that there were ways in that moment, in the heat coming after 2001, where it certainly radicalized people and there was massive overstep and we could go through all the terrible policies that were executed. I think it's more about nativism. I think that these folks were radicalized by this more than the War on Terror. I think that it was a lot of people who had, like a view of the country as being more of like a blood and soil, this is my country, had those kind of impulses tamped down by people that were doing the bpms lower. And then like, we hit this moment where they could get in their phones and they could get from Sarah Palin, they could get from Trump, and they could get from Fox and that people to encourage and instigate their worst impulses. All of that stuff happened kind of after the War on terror. So, you know, again, I don't. I'm not trying to minimize the fact that there were people and actions that were. That, you know, that were radical within the war on terror, but I think the crisis we're in now, you know, kind of happened with this confluence of Events like that was really more towards when that was petering out a little bit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you feel as comfortable with Democrats now as you did with Republicans then?

[Tim Miller]

Maybe more. Like there are certain things that I don't feel comfortable with with Democrats, but it's like kind of cute and funny, you know, like there's like terms and words, you know. I was interviewing John Lovett the other day and he was talking about solidarity. And I'm like, God, I gotta. I'm with the solidarity people now. Like, that's a little weird, you know, or like the language stuff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're not.

[Tim Miller]

The language stuff is like a little. It's a little strange. Strange. Some of the abortion stuff makes me a little uncomfortable. But honestly, I was uncomfortable a lot in Republican circles. I was a hired gun. Like, my view, my worldview hasn't changed that much. I've gotten maybe slightly more left on various things.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Also processing some personal stuff for years.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right. That's what I was saying. So I was a moderate Republican who's gay. And so there were a lot of times where I was uncomfortable in Republican world and, and you know, where I chose my. I was particular about choosing, like, what candidates I would work for because I knew I would be uncomfortable. I don't. There's not a situation where you could like put me in a room with a Democrat right now where I'd be like, I think I might be uncomfortable in that room, you know, in the way that I was back then.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What options do people have who hate both parties? I mean, I think in my lifetime, Democrats as a party and as an institution, they've never been more unpopular in my lifetime.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So where do they go? As you make the rounds and you speak with many different people of all kind of political walks.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, look, I guess I'm sympathetic to that. I would say this. I go back to what I said earlier about what the most acute crisis is. We all, we all got a rash when it comes to the Democrats, you know, and it might be different. Like there's certain things, might be policy, it might be style, it might be confidence, leadership tone. But like, it's all pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Like compared to the threat that we face for Donald Trump. And we can't say with confidence that we are sure that we will have a normal Democratic election in three years. The economy is cratering around us. We are on the side of Russia, I think, and the war with Ukraine, like across every vertical, the threats that these guys pose to everybody's day to day life I think are even greater than most people realize. Unless you're, like, really hyper engaged on this or hyper radicalized against Trump. If I was those people that don't like either party, what I would say to them is, like, the Democrats have this opportunity to remake themselves. Try to help them reimagine that in a way that that would get you excited.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As a former person who ran campaigns, pitch it to me. What are those things? Because I'm sure you've been thinking about all the. Look, the plane trips you're taking where you're like, this is. This is how you should say it.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I would just say the ante before I get to the pitch is be fucking passionate in your anger about Donald Trump. That's the ante. Like, be passionate in your anger about what is happening specifically. Not, like, esoteric, like democracy. Like, he is kidnapping people. That is fucking wrong. His economic policies are hurting people. You know, like, be passionate. He's firing veterans while having a military parade for himself. That's your ante. Now, where does it. Where do the Democrats go from there? I would say say to somebody, find the area that you think that the Democrats have failed. Grab onto that and own it. You know, look at what Bernie did. It's. It's simple. It's the fucking millionaires and the billionaires, and we're going to fight oligarchy, and you can ask Bernie about anything, and he's going to bring it back to that. And he wanted to remake the party in that way. I think in 2028, somebody might be able to remake the party in Bernie's image. I think in 2028, somebody might be able to remake the party in Mark Cuban's image, the image of a billionaire. That's like, we need to make the government actually work and fix things for people. And like, these guys wanted to make American great. They fucking failed. I'm gonna make you rich.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you think it's really based on the candidate? It's actually not a set of kind of core principles and positions. It's, hey, who's on the COVID The.

[Tim Miller]

Guy on the COVID or the woman on the COVID Because I'm not of the view that a woman couldn't do it needs to have either the hat or the whiteboard. You know, James Carbon, take us through. James Carville had the whiteboard. Anybody that's watched the 92 documentary, it's the economy, stupid. Change versus more of the same. And don't forget health care. That was his whiteboard. Trump has the fucking hat. What was Kamala's whiteboard or hat? Nobody knows. What was Hillary's white border hat? Nobody knows.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

You can ask Hillary and Kamala what their white border hat is. They wouldn't know. You could ask Joe Biden. He wouldn't know. Right, sure. So it isn't just like, oh, I need a handsome movie star to be on the COVID And anything. It can be anything underneath. It's got to be a person that has a vision that they can sum up, they can describe. Here is what we need to do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Andrew Yang, and I've interviewed him before. He was all whiteboard.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And he had a hat that said math on it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Didn't work.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Well, what is math, though? It's a bad hat. I don't mean. I don't think any hat could work.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, make America smart again. Make America read again.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, let me be clear. This means just, okay, the people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

A thousand dollars. Like, those are some pretty. Like, these are some pretty compelling.

[Tim Miller]

The hat or the whiteboard is necessary but not sufficient for success. You can have a bad hat. You can have a bad whiteboard. My point is, I wish the Democrats.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My man, had a hat, a whiteboard, and a fucking USA scarf. So I will not tolerate it.

[Tim Miller]

It was a good effort.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The Andrew Yang slate. Childish Gambino, Donald Glover was the creative director for his campaign. That would be the equivalent of being like, you know, Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign is being ran by Princess. Like, he's doing the creative direction, he's doing the merch. I'd be like, God damn, he just did the Batman soundtrack. God damn.

[Tim Miller]

My point is, and I think that rather than being like, oh, these Democrats suck. Like, why not channel it towards. Look, I gave you the negative version of. When we were sitting in this chair in April 2017. Nobody would have believed the insurrection. We're at the positive version, sitting in this chair in April 2005. You would have said I was insane if I told you, you know, who's going to be the president next? Barack Hussein Obama. He's going to run against the Iraq war, and he's gonna run on bringing the country together. And there's gonna be art posters. Like, that's crazy. The country wants big change, and somebody who has a vision and, like, passion and is gonna do it different is gonna be able to define themselves differently from, like, this era of Clinton through Biden, through Harris could succeed. And I. And I really. My point is, like, I believe that person could be some center left, or I think they could be populist. Left, somebody's got to like grab it by the horns and we kind of have to see how, how things shake out.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The election has come and gone. Now we're in a new era. It can be easy to get discouraged, frustrated, but you can't afford not to pay attention. You need trustworthy, independent journalism to cut through the noise and hold power to account. I'm Mary Harris, host of what next from slate.com. we are a Daily news podcast with a kind of transparent, smart, yet tongue in cheek analysis you can only find at Slate. Follow and listen to what Next wherever you get your podcasts. What, what's your mission right now? Because I see there's a lot of videos and you're very upset. YouTube, a lot of videos of you being very outraged right now.

[Tim Miller]

Are you not upset?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm upset, but again, my natural tendency, I don't know why it is, it's to comes from a place of like, okay, where do we go from here? And maybe that is like the kind of child of immigrants kind of mentality of like, okay, bad things are happening, new information is coming. How do we pivot and where do we go from here?

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to try to use my experience on the dark side for good is my mission now. Honestly, like, I, I think that Democrats, anti Trump, pro democracy people, corporations, lawyers, these guys need fucking balls. They need a backbone. They need to know how to fight. They need to have the courage to fight. They need to know how to use the strategies that Fox uses to get people riled up about stupid shit. Like the Bud Light can use those same strategies to get riled up about the fact that we kidnapped a makeup artist and sent him to a concentration camp in El Salvador. Why can't Andre the makeup artist, why can't he be a rallying point for people to oppose this administration? Why can't that then help snowball what will eventually be these guys downfalls or snowball into a mass movement again? I think it could be a lot of different things. I think my job is to a tell people what's happening, but also help them find their outrage. Everyone should be. There's a lot to be mad about right now and I think that like there is a tendency towards sanguineness or towards fear. I want people to be a little bit less inclined towards fear or towards checking out and more inclined towards punching back. Not literally. Cash Patel.

[Hasan Minhaj]

One of the things you do is you will debate and you will converse with anyone. Hell yeah, you will debate. Tomi Lahren.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why?

[Tim Miller]

Well, sometimes Cause it's fun.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I don't want to say it because there's a higher purpose to it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Gotcha. So you're also running on pettiness.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, dude, I run on Petty.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That 87 grade capital P Pettiness. Maybe some 89, depending on.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I run on petty. And I accept those invitations more when I'm feeling particularly petty, you know? So some of it. And some of it is an outlet. But, ma' am, more than that, though, we live in a very fractured world, and I think that people need to hear from the other side and, like, hear another point of view, hear other perspectives and hash it out. And I think that's probably less useful on the Tommy Larkin exchange of ideas. Yeah. Than it is on some other stuff that I want to do. I think it's particularly true with young men right now. I think that young guys are, like, hearing a lot from people that are giving them bad information. I want to try to chop it up and be like, I can talk. You know, I can talk to you about, like, the markets and fucking basketball and, like, what, you know, Zen. Like, we can. I can chop it up, like, with you guys. Like, I don't know. You know, I might be gay, but, like, I know what's happening. And just, like, giving people a different perspective, I think is helpful. Revealing the weaknesses of their arguments, I think is useful. And then there's also feeding the petty. All those purposes, I think are valuable.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I don't have the answer to it because I'm trying to identify what. What is happening right now. Because you had Lincoln Douglas debate, right? You have the famous. I mean, you had the famous Chomsky Buckley debate. You had the James Baldwin, William F. Buckley debate, right? These are, like, iconic. And some people would argue that Buckley was a crypto fascist.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think me versus Tommy, me versus Dan Crenshaw.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know what I mean?

[Tim Miller]

Me versus Dan Crenshaw is pretty good, though. That was useful because to me, it revealed something about the ways that people that are enabling Trump are lying to themselves, and maybe by showing people that are more attuned to the Dan Crenshaw side of that debate. Essentially, he's the congressman for Texas with the eyepatch. His point was like, basically, Trump isn't gonna do all the bad shit that he says. Like, he's just gonna be a normal Republican, and this guy over here with his pearls and his screeching is trying to, like, scare you. And now here we are three months later, and, like, Trump is doing the stuff that the guy with the pearls and the screeching was saying, there's like some value, I think, in having those type, like, hashing that out more than, like the food fight shit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Maybe I disagree a bit because back in the day, and maybe this is the way I felt. Like, what debate had this aspect of education to it? Like, I remember seeing the James Baldwin, William F. Buckley debate, and it made me read Baldwin's work, but certainly it also made me realize I was like, william F. Buckley is also an incredibly deeply read, educated person. But now there's this thing where I don't know what the fuck any of this is. I think we're screaming at each other in 8 minute chunks and then doing ad reads for ZipRecruiter.com and I'll tell you why. Because it's this weird thing. We're both in the Roman Coliseum and the Roman Senate. These things are being combined into one YouTube short.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Here's an exact data point that involves you, my friend.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, no.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. During that Tomi Lahren debate conversation, scream fest, whatever. We want to call it. Throwdown. Let's call it a throwdown. The original YouTube video of your debate has 12,000 views. Your video about the debate titled Watch Tim Miller Destroy MAGA. YouTuber Tomi Lahrens Pathetic attacks on Kamala.

[Tim Miller]

I thought we had a rule that we weren't going to read the headlines.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Has 1.4 million views.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Nailed it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So it worked. It worked, clearly. Nailed it. And look, I'm not judging. Your boy is jockeying for YouTube eyeballs like everybody else. But I was like, man, it also simultaneously, bro, it makes me so sad.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, look, the Tommy Lahren debate, I'm not gonna sit over here and be like, you know, Hasan, I think there's some real deep value that I'm bringing. I think that there's a lot of value I'm bringing to the discourse and the culture. With that, I do think some of the other things, like going on to other people's platforms is valuable, but, like, man, what. What's the answer? What do you. What's the answer? What are you supposed to do? What do you do?

[Hasan Minhaj]

And also, you're using your skill set. You want to try to engage with the world as it is, with your skill set, with your experience. You wrote a book and you're trying to convey your perspective. So I. Look, I appreciate you coming on the show and talking about that, but I wanted to know, specifically with Donald Trump, why do you so many Republican politicians have a humiliation Kink when it comes to djt. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Tim Miller]

I do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, Donald Trump will unload the clip on everyone and anyone in the party that crosses him. He said Ted Cruz's dad killed jfk. He called Ted Cruz's wife ugly. He made fun of Marco Rubio's height. He insulted elon Musk in 2022. Yeah, let's take a look at that. This is on Truth Social. When Elon Musk came to the White House asking me for help on all of his many subsidized projects, whether it's electric cars that don't drive long enough, driverless cars that crash, or rocket ships to nowhere, without which subsidies, he'd be worthless. And telling me how he was a big Trump fan and Republican. I could have said, drop to your knees and beg, and he would have done it. My God, my man is cooking. Holy shit. Drop to your knees. Why do so many Republicans just put their dignity through a wood chipper?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know that it's a kink in the literal sense for anyone except Ted Cruz. He might be jerking off to Donald Trump, insulting him. I don't think it's true for the rest of them. The answer for the rest of them, man, is like, every kind of culture has this drug, right? You said, I do all the drug references for New York. It's money, right? And power. Hollywood is fame. Like, in D.C. it's like, kind of like being around the man. Like, access. It's like having power comes with responsibility, Right? Power is kind of hard. Not a lot of. At least some people really want power.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like a guest list.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, dude. They want to be on the fucking president's guest list. They want to be in Air Force One. They want to be in the. In the room where it happened. There's a whole fucking, like, musical about this, you know? They want to be in the room where it happened so they can go home for Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving. And be like, you won't believe what Trump was saying on the plane. They want to. Lindsay just wants to sit next to him in the golf cart. That's literally it. I don't. I don't think there's anything else sexual there with Lindsay. I think he just wants to be shotgun in the golf cart, and that is what gives him meaning.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So it's just a guest list thing.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's just a guest.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Literally, can I be plus one on the guest list?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's pretty cool to be on the guest list. It's not nothing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Access. That Great. Because, look, man, I've. I've. I've testified in Congress.

[Tim Miller]

Fuck.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Congress blows. It's the fucking DMV. And that was before January 6th. Yeah, dude, I saw a mousetrap in Congress. I was like, yeah, this is what my taxes are paying for. Furthermore, in the waiting room, they had a Keurig did. I'm like, you're not getting me fills. You're not getting me what. Get me Folgers. I'll take Folgers over you, Keurig.

[Tim Miller]

You've been on a private jet.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I have.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. The gap between being sitting on the president's private jet and being in steerage on Southwest is pretty significant. So I think that. That. I think that there. That's a lot of it. I wish it was something deeper, like, I wi. Like, but I'm telling you, there is. And there's the resentment.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's so many ways to get on a private jet. There's many different ways. I'm not even talking about the Epstein stuff. There's many different ways to. You can go be, you know, Steve Aoki's assistant.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. A couple of these guys, Dan Crenshaw, might be interested in that job.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, like, there's plenty of jobs where you can get on a pj, you know?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's true.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I got everything, man.

[Tim Miller]

All right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I thought the book was really interesting, and I just wanted. I wanted your perspective on someone who worked within the machine to tell us how the machine works and kind of. I'm a big fan of using. Of zooming out and using history as a thing to give us, you know, data points and sets to go, hey, where do we see the patterns? And where can we kind of zoom out and hopefully find. Find meaning, see things with clarity, and then make. Make decisions accordingly.

[Tim Miller]

So you judging me on the YouTube thing? Am I getting judged? Are you, like, looking at that YouTube, like, man, this is, you know, look.

[Hasan Minhaj]

For sure, for sure. We're gonna have to do a really, really fucking dopey YouTube thumbnail for this one.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Former Republican insider tells crazy Jeb Bush stories.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. That's not even bad enough. We got it. We gotta. We gotta turn that fucking up, man. We gotta turn the dial up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Former Republican insider says Lindsey Graham wasn't in it for the King.

[Tim Miller]

There you go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Tim Miller, ladies and gentlemen.

[Tim Miller]

Man, I thought that was going to be worse. Really? Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No hurry.

[Tim Miller]

Right away. No delays on the day.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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