A (3:45)

So is this something that you think all consumer facing companies need to get good at or is it only relevant for particular types of companies?

B (3:56)

With marketing, you always want to be authentic to your own brand. Meaning if you think of extreme examples like a luxury brand that is hundreds years old, that is all about timelessness, might not be a brand that should do these type of ads, but brands that really are more modern, more in conversation with consumers, as long as it's consistent with their brand values, I think you can dab in fastvertising.

A (4:26)

I imagine that the advent of social media is what's made this possible. But companies have been able to do it on traditional media channels like television too, right?

B (4:36)

So I think with television there are a little bit longer cycles. It has to go through a lot of authorization processes, then you have to assign the paid media and ensure that the ad goes there and go to production and all of these things. So I think technically it's possible. But what is different here other than the aspect of social media is really also a cultural shift in how advertising companies and how brands move in producing these ads. So instead of taking, you know, weeks or month to approve and produce usually pretty expensive ad, it's about coming up with ideas, you know, once you see the viral moment or the cultural moment, and then being able to shoot and produce it within the same day. So it's not going to be five different sets and different actors, but you're going to have a clever idea that speaks to people and it could be produced relatively quickly. Now what social media gives is this extra disproportionate impact of these ads because instead of just seeing it on television, once you're fastvertising is successful and it does get consumers talking about it, then they start spreading it and there starts to be a ton of word of Mouth. Everyone wants to talk about it, everyone shares it.

A (5:57)

And I want to dig into sort of exactly how an organization gets good at this. But first, let me ask which brands are doing it best right now, if you had to point to a particular company, a particular campaign, a particular fastvertising moment, what are the ones you would cite?

B (6:15)

I think Maximum Effort is very good at this. So a couple of years ago, when the Sex and the City reboot happened, in the first episode, they had the famous Mr. Big take a Peloton ride and essentially die immediately after.

A (6:30)

Spoiler alert.

B (6:31)

Yeah, sorry about that. I mean, it's a few years old now, right? Yeah. And then I think within 48 hours, maximum effort created an ad for Peloton where Chris Knoth, the actor that plays Mr. Big, was suddenly revived. I think the ad was called something like, he's alive. And he was having a romantic evening slash, maybe a workout with two Peloton bikes with Jess King, one of the famous Peloton instructors that actually also appeared as the instructor on the episode. The ad was for Peloton, and it was about, peloton is actually good for your health and good for your heart, and Mr. Big is alive. So that is something that if they wouldn't have produced it within 48 hours, no one would have known what anyone is talking about. But this really quick reaction is what makes it clever. Fastvertising.

A (7:26)

Yeah.

B (7:26)

The way that Ryan and his co founder structure the company, they're really able to do these things really quickly. Of course, you know, you had to bring in Chris Noth on board and Jess King on board and all of that. But it's an ad where there is only one scene, one room, so it's relatively low production cost. And then in a clever way that, you know, is not offensive to anyone, that is related to the moment in culture in a way that people will talk about it and will make it viral, which then has the downstream consequences of once it goes viral, everyone talks about it, and suddenly Peloton is seen as a positive thing. Where, you know, the previous news cycle, Peloton is killing people, which is not something that a company wants to be a part of.

A (8:18)

Yeah. And Ryan owed Peloton one because he did an aviation gin ad that was playing off of a Peloton ad that had gotten a lot of criticism. You cite this in the article where a woman had gotten a Peloton as a gift from her husband and improved herself. And everyone cited it as an example of an icky relationship. And so then they hired that actress to Be in a bar drinking some gin, recovering from that difficult husband.

B (8:49)

Exactly. So to me, the fact that peloton later went to Ryan for this ad showed, you know, no hard feelings. We're also in on the joke.

A (8:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it obviously takes really creative people to come up with these ideas on the spur of the moment to see something in culture and think I can reference my brand in a clever way to respond to this. So what kind of talent do you need to hire internally or at an agency that's working on this to make sure you're going to be able to capture those moments?

B (9:22)

So in some sense, it kind of reminds me of late night comedy show writers that have to. For the famous monologues at the beginning, they usually reference things that happened today or in the most recent news cycle and have to make humor of it in some way. It has to be people like that that see something and have a clever, potentially humorous react. But you also want to have some version of guardrails or some ability to ensure this joke is not taking it too far. This is consistent with what our brand means. This is something that consumers will react to. And of course you're okay with failure. Some jokes don't land well, but you want to have, you know, quick, witty people that are able to cleverly react to these things and taking risks, but not too big of risks where this will backfire.

A (10:20)

I think also comedy writers understand that you might pitch 20 jokes and only one of them might get selected and then it might be tweaked before it goes to the public. So I think that idea of internal failure will happen before it even reaches the level of being put out to the consumers. I do feel like brands are hiring a lot of people like that to manage their social media feeds now KFC or some airlines where they're actually empowered to respond to people immediately online, and then they get kudos for it when they do it really well. Do you see companies viewing their social media feed and customer service response also as a form of fastvertising as well, or fast marketing?

B (11:10)

Certainly. So this is your way to communicate with consumers very quickly, very in the moment, very cheaply, in the sense that zero production value. You don't have to record an ad at all. You can just have a clever line, a clever sentence, a clever hashtag, of course, to every positive example. We can also have examples where this didn't work out so well, but for the most part, and we see this in research, this type of behavior, this type of ability, it really humanizes the brand in the mind of consumers. It really makes them feel like this is someone they would like to hang out with. And again, we can talk about which brands this would be appropriate for, which brands it's less appropriate for. And part of it is if I don't do it and my competitor does it instead, then I'm not in the conversation and my competitor is. So as you balance the risk and reward of this strategy, that's one thing you need to consider.

A (12:07)

So you want to be funny, you want to be responsive, you want to be fast, but how do you ensure that those guardrails you mentioned are there, that you're not taking too much risk?

B (12:19)

I think part of that is empowering the people and part of it is about company culture. So if you start developing a process where now each Tweet needs to 20 different approvals to go up the chain, then you miss the mark, right, because it's not going to be fast enough. You need to have a more flat hierarchy of approval and you need to make sure that the writers really understand what the brand is about and what is okay in culture and what is not. So I think it's actually tricky in maximum effort. They do have in some sense a flat hierarchy that allows for ideas to go from ideas to production very quickly.

A (13:04)

But there is a senior person who can make the final call that knows the brand in and out, right, understands risk. It's not necessarily going up to the lawyers, but it's going up to someone with enough authority to suffer the blowback if blowback comes.

B (13:22)

So for the early days, the aviation gin example is really easy because at the time the ad came up then Ryan was actually a co owner of this brand. So you know, he understands, he understands culture. But with other brands, they might have to pitch to a brand, an ad, but this brand is so used to the old ways of doing things where they see one month of approvals and market research and all of these processes that you can never have fastvertising. This way, you can have ads that are kind of related to culture, but not in the way we think about fastvertising.

A (14:02)

From global consulting for McKinsey & Co. And the minds behind the New York Times bestseller CEO Excellence, comes a CEO for all seasons. A compact, insight packed guide to navigating the leadership phases that every CEO must master. Using the wisdom of the world's top CEOs, a CEO for all seasons spotlights winning strategies from starting strong to sustaining momentum to ensuring a lasting legacy. A CEO for All Seasons is available wherever books are sold, Are There any other sort of structural changes that organizations need to make to ensure that this happens more.

B (14:45)

Routinely? Like everything, this ends up being a management problem in the sense that if management, whoever is the CMO or VP of marketing is not into these type of things, then it's just not going to happen at the company. They have to be able to embrace this for this to go well. So I definitely think there needs to be a cultural change in we want to do this. And yes, it's not what the marketing playbook from 30 years ago was talking about, but maybe it's something that is appropriate in this new age of every moment is a new viral trend and we want to be in top with the trend. We want to talk to our consumers. In this age of fighting for attention of 15 second videos and people with their TikTok and Twitter and whatever apps they're using, then maybe in order to be in the conversation, you need to be in those places because otherwise you're.

A (15:44)

Not. And so there is a goal beyond going viral. Like it's great if you do go viral, but if your customers are appreciating what you're doing, that's also a.

B (15:55)

Win. We can argue about. Does virality translate to actual sales? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But it definitely translates into share of voice, meaning how much you're talked about, how much you're heard about. And maybe today I'm not going to make a sale to buy this product and maybe also not in two weeks from now, but maybe at a point in the future when I'm considering a purchase. This brand has as positive salience in my mind because of this viral thing that happened last month. So that's part of why we want to go viral. But certainly just humanizing the brand, making sure the brand is authentic, being in the mind of consumers is something you want to do even in the old marketing.

A (16:39)

Playbooks. The example that comes to mind when you say that is Astronomer, which was the company whose executives were involved in the Coldplay Kiss Cam scandal. And they're a B2B company, but they still seize the opportunity. Opportunity to say if our brand is being talked about, let's actually explain what our company does. And they hired Gwyneth Paltrow, the ex wife of Coldplay lead singer Chris Martin, to do an ad basically doing that. So it was a good example of even a B2B company just saying, okay, let's get our actual message out there in a funny, humorous.

B (17:14)

Way. Exactly. And that's another actually maximum effort.

A (17:17)

Example. Yeah. So is there any Quantification of what fast advertising can do for a company in terms of increased sales, revenue, et.

B (17:29)

Cetera. So I think that link is the hardest one to make. By the way, it's very hard to make this even with traditional advertising. So there are tens if not hundreds of papers in marketing saying how hard it is to measure advertising, that most TV ads have null or zero impact on sales. And part of the reason is because a lot of these things take so long to actually impact purchase. So what we do see is things like brand mentions, how many people went to the website, how many people talked about the ad, things like that. We believe that correlate with actual purchases down the road, but it's very hard to actually measure.

A (18:16)

It. What about when fast advertising goes wrong? Is there a quantification of what happens when there are mistakes in terms of damage to the brand or lost.

B (18:30)

Sales? I think that's the other side of the same coin. So we do see. You know, the brand has to apologize, tweets being removed, ads being removed immediately. Consumers do talk about it, it does go viral, but people have very negative sentiments. So when you analyze share of voice and it's negative, we typically think of this as potentially having negative consequences. But we also know from marketing research that even when there are boycotts of brands, oftentimes it doesn't actually have an impact on the bottom line because different consumers have different opinions. So I think that's an even harder one to, to demonstrate. But definitely, at least for a short period of time, there is negative associations of the brand and no marketing manager wants.

A (19:17)

That. So when you're faced with a cultural moment, are there certain key questions to ask or steps to take to increase your chances of crafting the right kind of fast.

B (19:31)

Response? So I think one is to understand the gravitas of the moment. Like some moments are just not appropriate for brands to want to be a part of. So, you know, we have some examples of that in the article or the hurricane or with the Arab Spring, where brands had tone deaf reactions to that in a way that was just, if you look at it later, it's completely inappropriate. So I think the first one is that, is this actually a moment to make light of or.

A (20:03)

Not? Pop culture is a lot safer than.

B (20:05)

Politics.

A (20:06)

Absolutely.

B (20:07)

Yeah. And then, and you know, disasters and war is probably not a place you want to associate your brand with. And then the second part, which I think is what we started of, is, can my brand say something about this and stay authentic to the brand and stay consistent? Is it something appropriate for my brand to actually be a part of this conversation. So I think those are kind of the top two questions before starting with, you know, sketching ideas and figuring out how can we react to.

A (20:40)

This. And in the ideation stage, we talked about the kind of talent you need. But can AI.

B (20:46)

Help? We all know with Genai that ChatGPT and others can help you come with ideas really quickly and I'm sure it accelerates creativity. I think what is still human's role is to understand what is an appropriate joke, what is a not appropriate joke. I think there are still things that Genai is not very good at and this is one of them. So humans still have the compassion, the cultural understanding, all of these things that make you a better judge of is this going to land or is this going to land me in.

A (21:22)

Trouble? That's another key question to ask. Taste and judgment. We still have.

B (21:26)

That. So for now, humans still have judgment above Gen.

A (21:30)

AI. So do you think that fastvertising is something that big organizations with more resources are better at or are the smaller, more nimble ones? Do they have the advantage because they can move more quickly and have less bureaucracy to get.

B (21:47)

Through? I think at the end of the day it depends on the organization. Right? We have examples of large organizations that still empower executives to make decisions and have flatter structures that allow them to be good even at moving quickly. And some organizations that are not. It is true that the more nimble you are, potentially it should be easier. If you're very small, then maybe you're too small for this to matter or for this to go viral. Like people still need to know something about the brand, but I don't think that big organizations can't do.

A (22:21)

It. And when a fastvertising campaign goes right, is there a way to build on it and capitalize on it such that you do guarantee it translates into benefit to the bottom line down the road, how do you make sure that it's not just a flash in the.

B (22:39)

Pan? I think that's a tough thing to do because really what you are doing is hopefully changing or highlighting how they think about the brand in their mind. So if I do that and now, oh, come and buy this or use this discount code or something like this might seem less authentic to consumers. So I think it's just something that as a part of a bigger marketing plan should help. Just like we see other ads and not something you necessarily want to try to immediately capitalize on in the same.

A (23:15)

Manner. It strikes me also that it's not something you can repeat that Often correct. You find a moment, you have something to say, but then you can't really find a moment a month later and have something to say about that because people will begin to see it as.

B (23:32)

Inauthentic. Correct. So part of this is you have your regular marketing planning, you have your regular advertising, and sometimes there are cultural moments where it's appropriate for you to do something about them, and you do that in an attempt to improve how the brand is being.

A (23:49)

Perceived. Essentially, when we talk about the sort of the structural and cultural and talent changes that need to happen to enable companies to be good at this, they should also understand that it's not going to be used all that.

B (24:05)

Frequently. I think there are two parts, Right. So one is, do I want to have ads that are culturally relevant in general? Sure. Some of this is the same talent and the same type of people that will be a part of this. And the second part is, do I want to be able to react quickly to things? Yes. Some of this is just sending an email from the company to consumers when something happens. Some of it is a Twitter ad and some of it is a more sophisticated fastvertising. And those capabilities, I think are important. Even if you're not going to create, you know, a fast advertising ad for every single cultural moment. Because we are in an era of huge social media, huge fight for attention, a lot of things are happening and you want to be sure that every day you're going to think about how am I having the right conversation with my consumers. And those are the same talent, the same approval processes, the same culture that we want in a company to be able to do.

A (25:09)

That. Another example that popped into my head as we've been talking is there was the furor over the Sydney Sweeney has great jeans American Eagle ad. And then Gap, which is a company that has great in house production, I imagine, produced an ad that emphasized multiculturalism, et cetera, very, very quickly. And it was, I think, a great example of a brand in a subtle way, responding to a conversation that was being had by many consumers about how clothing is.

B (25:46)

Marketed. Yeah, yeah. And it's clear to everyone that knows about the Sydney Sweeney things that happened a couple of weeks earlier, exactly what this is.

A (25:54)

About. But the ad also stands on.

B (25:57)

Its own for people that don't know about. Might not be clear, but it's still consistent with what Gap stands for and what Gap has done over the.

A (26:05)

Years.

B (26:06)

Yeah. And that's exactly the line you want to.

A (26:08)

Walk. So we've talked a lot about what marketing teams should be doing if you're a leader elsewhere in your organization. How do you support this kind of strategy? Email ideas to the marketing.

B (26:22)

Team. I don't know if they're going to appreciate that, but I think as part of the organizational change, there needs to be support from everyone in the organization that is a decision maker. Right. Finance has to be on board as well for a potentially risky marketing campaign to be able to happen. And there is a whole field of that is called social listening, which is essentially social media analysis, which tells me, you know, what are people talking about? What is the sentiment? Is it positive? Is it negative? How many mentions of my brand, how many likes, how many retweets, how many clicks on my website? Anything that happens on social media that I should know about my brand is now something that marketers, managers, brand managers are able to see and analyze. And a successful fastvertising campaign should definitely move all of these in a positive.

A (27:15)

Direction. At relatively low.

B (27:18)

Cost. At relatively low cost.

A (27:19)

Exactly. Yeah. Well, Ayelet, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation, talking about all of our favorite campaigns over the past few.

B (27:27)

Years. Thank you so much for your time. It's always a.

A (27:30)

Pleasure. That's Ayelet Israeli, associate professor at Harvard Business School and co author of the article Marketing at the Speed of Culture. Next week, Adi explores the idea of the Octopus organization. If you found this episode helpful, share it with a comment colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate IdeaCast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. If you want to help leaders move the world forward, please consider subscribing to Harvard Business Review. You'll get access to the HBR mobile app, the weekly exclusive Insider newsletter, and unlimited access to HBR Online. Just head to hbr.org subscribe. Thanks to our team, Senior producer Mary Du, Audio Product Manager Ian Fox, and senior producer Production specialist Rob Eckhart. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Allison Beard.