A (3:15)

Well, I am definitely interested in hearing what her answer is, because it is a big problem and it defies easy solutions.

B (3:22)

All right, here is my interview with Telly Whitney, co founder of the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing Conference and author of Rebooting Tech how to Ignite Innovation and Build Organizations Where Everyone Can Thrive. Telly, welcome.

C (3:39)

Oh, it's lovely to be here.

B (3:41)

So, first, what do you see as the problem with tech culture right now? Why does it need a reboot?

C (3:47)

I've worked in technology for a very long time, and there's this real desire for many of us that have chosen this as a career to make a difference. And we are often captured by this idea of what the actual technology can do. But for whatever reason, the roots of it live in this place where it's pretty exclusionary. Much of the local tech industry today takes its roots back to what I call the PayPal mafia, which is a group of men who started PayPal and have become some of the great leaders of some technology, like Elon Musk, Peter Till, Reid Hoffman. This idea of what a technologist looks like permeates many companies, especially the. The hardcore tech companies like Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook. And so for many women or many people who are different, it does not feel for them when they join these tech companies that they belong.

B (4:49)

And yet the companies have been very successful, at least financially, doing it, as they have been doing it for decades. So why do you think that creating more diverse workforces is important?

C (5:03)

I mean, yes, there's been some great successes, but you and I both know that some of the technology that we use could be better. It could be more welcoming to people. It could have a much bigger impact on the world. I mean, social media is probably the topic today where you see this most clearly, where the leaders of some of the companies involved there are focused completely on making more money. And yet it's having some pretty serious negative impact. And I truly believe, and have observed it, that as you include people with different perspectives, the resulting technology would be better, more inclusive to everybody, to your children, to your family. And that's my dream. I really am passionate about creating technology. But if you look out from where we sit today, I just. I don't think that the world that they're creating is going to be as good as it could be. You're seeing this right now with AI. There's these teams that are just working as hard as they possibly could to have that next breakthrough on the algorithm level at the new. The new generation of AI. And yet some people are saying, hey, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? And I believe that if the leaders of this technology that we're seeing today, we're open to taking ideas about having, yes, great technology, but also things that don't blow up the world.

B (6:39)

And so that leads to my next question. You know, is this a Silicon Valley problem, a US problem, or is it really a worldwide problem that you see in tech culture?

C (6:49)

This culture that I talk about a lot is rooted in Silicon Valley, no question. I mean, that's where I was brought up professionally. And Silicon Valley, famously, partly because you've got this startup approach to so many of the companies that are now giants. But technology companies these days are every company, I mean, I've watched time after time is banks, insurance companies and other places, they don't as often have that crazy culture that's so exclusionary. They have a more mature culture. And I do think that the place where I see it the most that my book talks about and is the most apparent is some of the hardcore tech companies.

B (7:36)

And as someone who has worked in that industry for decades, why do you think that this more exclusionary culture developed?

C (7:46)

If you go back a lot of years, I mean, when I first took computer science as an Undergraduate in the 80s, there were more women graduating with computer science degrees. Less total numbers, but larger percentage. And so there was a time when anybody who was good was welcomed to these very new and telling companies. And I do draw back to the PayPal mafia, where they felt like they could only hire people that look like them. And they became so successful, it developed into a model that others have adopted without thinking about, wow, we could have this great innovation without this exclusionary approach. There became this myth of the lone genius. And there's also this idea of what the perfect technology employee looks like. And it is often male, hyper competitive and singularly focused. You see this particularly in the VC industry where they're doing pattern matching. That's who they're looking for, that they want to invest in. And then because of that, managers underestimate what some of their other employees do. Emily Chang in her book Brotopia, did a great job of talking about the myth of meritocracy. There are many people in Silicon Valley who believe that it is a meritocracy. But if you talk to the people who don't look like the majority, they don't feel like it's a meritocracy. They don't feel like their ideas are listened to.

B (9:23)

Yeah. And someone could point to your own success at numerous companies in Silicon Valley. And other prominent examples of women, you know, leading large companies. You think of Sheryl Sandberg at Facebook previously or Gwynne Shotwell at SpaceX now. And then even prominent examples of people of color leading organizations. I think of, of Topa Watona of Calendly or Lisa Su of amd. So, you know, there are examples of people who are not white men who have succeeded. So how do you respond to that?

C (9:59)

Well, I think that's great. And what I would like to see is all companies adopt some of the practices that these successes that you're talking about are within their own organization. And that's really what I'm talking about. Let me talk about AMD for just a minute because I do think it's a great example. I interviewed both Lisa Su and also Mark Papermaster, her executive vice president and cto. And AMD is from my youth. I mean, they were sort of the second rate chip company for so many years. And Lisa came in as the CEO and they did a turnaround. And part of what Mark and Lisa talked about was soliciting ideas from all their staff by thinking about doing the design of their upcoming processor in a different way than had been in the past, more modular. And their approach to innovation, which was also inclusive, created this very successful products that put them in the number one seat in many cases. And so I think that that's a particularly great example of how you can do it. But think about who they are. They are an older company. They do have innovation practices and inclusion practices that were tried and true. People felt like they were recognized, they felt like their ideas were welcomed. And I think it's a great example of what some companies can do in cultures.

B (11:28)

Yeah. So there are good examples and bad examples. And even Reid Hoffman, who, you know, was a founding member of PayPal, you know, he has taken a different tack than his fellow co founders in terms of being a big proponent of inclusivity in Silicon Valley.

C (11:43)

Right, right.

B (11:44)

Yeah.

C (11:45)

I brought up the PayPal mafia because this idea that that particular group espoused has had such a fundamental influence on so many other companies. But yes, Reid Hoffman is one of those people that has really looked at it differently and has. He has been wildly successful. And I mean, Allison, in general, I believe that some companies are successful and some are not, but that if you adopt the principles that I talk about in my book, your resulting product will be better.

B (12:19)

Yes, yeah. Not just financially more successful, but better for the world. So there is a lot of Pushback right now on this idea that diverse teams generate better outcomes. Is there particular evidence or experience that you would point to to indicate that they actually do?

C (12:39)

Diversity has become a bad word, sadly, since I've seen so much positive impact of diversity. But diversity also, the way that many companies have adopted has flat out not really worked because they've adopted these programs where diversity was the end product. We want to have a result of diversity, diversity rather than part of the process. And what I believe is that if you want to have great ideas, if you want to create these products that really will change the world, having a culture where you're listening to a broad set of ideas from all kinds of people will result in better ideas. And so diversity is part of the process, but we want to encourage ideas and thoughtful review from everybody. And there's a lot of people that are not white men that may have ideas that are positive on your product.

B (13:42)

Yeah. So how would you define a thriving tech culture in 2025?

C (13:48)

So my book talks about, you have a culture with the six Cs, which is creativity, courage, confidence, curiosity, communications, and community. This kind of culture allows ideas to thrive for people to listen to each other, to build on each other's ideas, and to have results that meet the goals and that can be wildly successful.

B (14:16)

So a lot of companies, particularly in the technology industry, would say, we're really good at all of those things already. You know, we are curious, we're confident. We have courage to try new things. We're building a community. Everyone works all hours here, so we're always together in the spirit of our business and, you know, following our mission. So where do you see the big holes? Where are the gaps? Where are they falling short?

C (14:44)

You want to ask the people who are participating in them. I led the Grace Hopper celebration for many years, and we had 30,000 people. A third of them were students. And these young women came to this conference so full of joy. They've been trained, and they. They want to change the world. They want to develop the technology. And I watched time after time, they would go to companies, and within about five years, they would leave. And I don't even know that they knew why they were leaving. It just didn't feel right. And so I started understanding that when their success was really determined by where they joined, that some cultures really said, we want to hear from you. And they solicited their ideas and they had processes by which creative ideas could flow. Yes, some companies have done okay. And yes, some of them are curious. But I've worked in technology a long time. And so I have seen many companies who thought they were great, that they were the only one that could do XYZ who are no longer around. And often it's because they got stuck on something that was very successful for them in the past and they did not know how to apply those same principles to their future innovations.

A (16:14)

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B (17:39)

You talk in the book about how all of these six Cs need to be approached sort of at the organizational systemic level. So what are some big systems within organizations that you think leaders should target first for change?

C (17:56)

I think that creativity is first and foremost what it's all about. And if you look at how many organizations have approached their creative process, it's often, and this is borne out by some studies, command and control. Everybody sets up ahead of time their goals. This is exactly what we want to do for this next year. And they tell everybody what to do. And if you think about the kinds of technologies that are evolving rapidly, I mean they change every day. That kind of culture is not going to change. Surface really key ideas that some of your staff will have. And so creating cultures that encourage creativity is important and not so easy. I would tell you that most companies do not do this very well. I think that that's an important place for many companies to start.

B (18:52)

Talk about the difference between fostering confidence versus fostering courage.

C (18:58)

You know, courage is an important part of my story. I feel like I got to where I am today by saying yes to opportunities that came by, by taking that risk and Encouraging your staff to be able to say yes to opportunities that are presenting to them. That's really where as the executive leader, you want to focus. Confidence is a little different than presenting your staff with opportunities to demonstrate their own confidence is important. You want to give everybody a chance to speak up and to talk about what they believe is important.

B (19:41)

And so it sounds like you're saying that a team leader can work on these six Cs even in the absence of sort of an organizational effort to do so.

C (19:52)

Right. I have seen large organizations where the change comes from top down. And I mean, that's remarkable, but it's not always possible. I believe that team leaders or engineering executives can create this kind of culture in their organization.

B (20:11)

How do you measure success in all of these areas? How do you know that you're getting it right?

C (20:16)

Well, I think that you can look at a number of things. I mean, one is your products. I mean, how successful are they in the business? But you also want to look at your staff and how long they stay with you. I mean, is there a lot of turnover in places that really don't feel comfortable? I mean, so those are two metrics that you can measure.

B (20:38)

And then how would we hold some of the companies that you think are falling down on this culture aspect or inclusivity aspect or, you know, negative externalities aspect? How do we hold them accountable? How do we push them in the right direction when they are successful doing it the way they have been? What's the incentive?

C (21:00)

How do we create incentives? I mean, what I have seen in the past is that employees vote with their feet. And so as you have these brilliant people, if they go somewhere else, that's one of the ways that signals that this is not the right place for some people. Boards can push back. I've seen a number of companies where boards requirements for their staff has made a huge difference. And in fact, if you look at the life cycle of the companies, companies often adopt some of what I'm talking about here as they mature, where they have the time to think about, yes, we want the best from our people and they offer them incentives to stay.

B (21:45)

And I guess Uber might be a good example of that. A company that sort of is going down the wrong path in terms of culture, but has righted itself.

C (21:53)

Yeah, such a great example. You know, I interviewed their former CTO in my book and he talks about the craziness in the early days of Uber. We got to know each other because the Grace Hopper celebration wouldn't let let Uber come to recruit. It was One of the ways in which we held back for companies that were just misbehaving is really what it is. Their new CEO is one, I mean, he's great. And if you talk to the people who work there, it does feel like ideas are welcome. So I think that that is an example of companies that have turned around. Another point that I would observe is that sometimes companies that get into deep trouble do the best. I mean, because they have to be systematic as they address the issues that have come up where some companies, some of the larger tech companies, they feel like they know what they're doing. And so even though there's a lot of unhappiness, even though there's not diversity in their senior execs, they just kind of keep going the way that they're going.

B (23:00)

And how do you move them beyond box ticking? You know, sort of performative inclusivity and sort of ethics versus meaningful moves in that direction?

C (23:14)

Well, most of the tools that we have in our toolbox is really talking about it, covering them. When they don't do well, it's the press. And once again, people vote with their feet. I mean there's a large technical company that I'll, I won't say their name, but I watched as all their mid career women left and they're all over Silicon Valley starting other companies but they did not find a way to move up in that company.

B (23:46)

I imagine there needs to be a change within the VC community as well.

C (23:50)

Right. There are very few women VCs and I think that it's 2% of VC investment goes to women led companies. It's really, really low. But you see a lot of changes in the VC community that I am inspired by. There's a lot more funds that are targeting women entrepreneurs and some of them are pretty successful. And I will say that with technologists of color, they're a little further behind in some cases. But there are, there's some wonderful VC firms that are specifically targeting entrepreneurs of color. Yeah, they are a little earlier in their startup, but I'm very optimistic.

B (24:35)

What about a shift in who the tech heroes of our day are? You know, I think Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, they're all still held up as the ultimate example of what it takes to be a success in the technology field. Do you see new role models emerging?

C (24:58)

Well, there are some remarkable role models that I think are very exciting. But I would like to see more coverage of people that aren't like these four billionaires. Somebody has to decide to Demonstrate the sheroes that are already out there. I mean, you mentioned Lisa Su, Jaisherie Ulal's another one of them. She was a co founder of Arista and is an amazing woman, technology business leader, CEO, and there's quite a few others. So having coverage of some of these people who are changing the face of technology would be helpful. And right now we have this backlash where we're going to this super masculine energy that I must admit, I just, I don't really fully understand. But these things, they ebb and flow within a company. You can also demonstrate your sheroes, so ensure that you are featuring speakers, some of the leaders that come from diverse backgrounds, people of color, women, and that your entire organization is hearing from them on a regular basis. That's one example.

B (26:15)

So practically, if you're a woman in tech or a person of color in tech and you're confronted with that energy, how do you respond?

C (26:24)

Most of the women I know, they collect a set of responses that are not mean spirited, but really demonstrate that they are capable and really keep focusing on your results. Make sure that what you deliver, it makes a difference. But you will run into exclusionary behavior. It's just part of life. But you can pick and choose who you work with. And not everybody is like that.

B (26:53)

What are you most worried about for the technology industry going forward? You know, looking ahead to the next five, 10 years, what keeps you up at night?

C (27:03)

Well, this backlash right now against inclusion is, I mean, sad because I do feel like it's shutting down work, positive work that has helped get us to where we are today. You know what keeps me up at night? The technology that we will be developing in the next five to ten years is revolutionary. I mean, I was part of a few revolutions, the semiconductor revolution that really led to the current AI generation because you could now have the compute power. I mean, I saw it. As we move forward, we want more people with diverse ideas to be at that table to think about how this technology is impacting our lives. So my fear is that the technology as it's being presented today is turning off the next generation. And we will lose because of that.

B (28:03)

And lose specifically because AI technologies will be developed in a way that's more harmful than they would be otherwise.

C (28:11)

I do believe that AI technology as it comes to fruition would be better served if you had very different people with diversity of ideas and in particular women and other underrepresented groups were at the table creating that technology. Yes.

B (28:29)

Yeah. And what gives you hope for the future?

C (28:32)

Well, what gives me hope is many of the people I talk to in this book. These are leaders that are creating many of some of at least the technologies that will change our lives. And they have a different way of, of thinking about it. And there's an upcoming generation, many of whom will not tolerate this kind of exclusionary behavior. And I want to see them come into power and help guide us to this next point.

B (29:02)

Well, Telly, I hope that happens as well. Thank you so much for your time today.

C (29:06)

Thank you very much, Allison.

B (29:11)

That's Telly Witch, author of the book Rebooting Tech how to Ignite Innovation and Build Organizations Where Everyone Can Thrive. Next week, Adi will be back to speak with Jeffrey Yip of Simon Fraser University's Bede School of Business about how leaders can become better listeners. And we now have more than a thousand IdeaCast episodes, plus many more HBR podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization and your career. Find them at hbr.org podcasts or search search HBR and Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Thanks to our team, Senior Producer Mary Dew, Associate Producer Hannah Bates, Audio Product Manager Ian Fox, and Senior Production Specialist Rob Eckhart. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Alison Beard.

D (30:07)

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