HBR IdeaCast — Episode Summary

Episode: How to Get Out of the Hybrid Work Rut

Date: June 17, 2025
Host: Adi Ignatius & Alison Beard
Guests: Peter Cappelli (Professor, Wharton School) & Rania Neme (Senior HR Strategist)

Overview:

This episode tackles the ongoing challenges organizations face in hybrid work arrangements. Despite years of experimentation post-pandemic, many businesses and employees remain frustrated with their hybrid setups. Adi and Alison bring on Peter Cappelli and Rania Neme, co-authors of "Hybrid Still Isn’t Working" and the forthcoming book "In Praise of the Office," to explore why hybrid models so often fail and what can be done to fix them.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Persistent Divide: Office vs. Remote vs. Hybrid

• Organizations still disagree on the necessity of office-based work. Some CEOs—like Amazon’s Andy Jassy—are data-driven in mandating in-office work for “collaboration” and “spontaneous interaction.” Others (e.g., GitLab) thrive fully remote, relying on carefully constructed workarounds for interaction.
• Hybrid is the "messiest" option: Many firms struggle to do it well; unclear policies and inconsistent execution are rampant.
  • "Hybrid is complicated. And I think a lot of companies feel that they aren't doing hybrid as well as they could." — Adi Ignatius [02:31]

2. What Does the Data Actually Say?

• Early studies showed productive remote work, but these often focused on individual contributors (e.g., patent attorneys, call center workers).
• Recent studies: Productivity drops in roles that depend on social exchange, collaboration, or “unseen” office interactions.
  • "The initial studies were done on individual contributors... The more recent studies are ones that are looking at interactions, and they're showing not such great outcomes. Lower productivity, more or less across the board." — Peter Cappelli [03:47]

3. Onboarding, Social Capital & Culture

• Remote onboarding takes longer—often two months longer for new hires to become functional.

• There’s a “reservoir of trust” from pre-existing relationships, but this erodes over time; new hires struggle more.

  • "It takes them longer. At least one of the places I spoke to, it took about two months longer... Every time you're hiring people in. Now that's a big number." — Peter Cappelli [05:59]

• Corporate culture and collaboration suffer: Social ties weaken, and help across teams becomes less likely unless a personal connection already exists.

  • "Collaboration and learning really tends to suffer. Employees are really focused on meeting their individual KPIs, and... it's really at the expense of helping their colleagues or working on collective tasks." — Rania Neme [07:38]

4. The "Best" Model — For Whom?

• Some employees (often the most valuable) want more remote work; CFOs like saving on office space; but many are actually more productive in-office.
• Hybrid only works with active management; left to itself, it falls apart.
  • "Employers and management have all the marbles so they can make the decisions and they could manage differently to make hybrid work. They just don't seem to be doing it." — Peter Cappelli [10:13]

Problems with Hybrid and Remote Work

1. Meetings Are Out of Control

• Number and duration of remote meetings have skyrocketed.
• Meetings lack engagement: cameras off, multitasking rampant.
• Hybrid meetings are the worst: in-room people + remote people = fractured participation.
  • "Meetings remotely don't work particularly well. The number of meetings appears to be up a lot... So limit the size of meetings, limit what you can do with meetings... Make sure the rule is cameras on. Start there." — Peter Cappelli [12:19]

2. "Coffee Badge" and Attendance Issues

• Many employees "coffee badge": swipe in to meet requirements, then leave.
• Allowing everyone to pick their own in-office days means teams rarely overlap, undermining collaboration.
  • "One of the surveys we saw, 73% of employers said they have real attendance problems or they coffee badge... And soon we fall the race to the bottom. Nobody's there." — Peter Cappelli [14:28]

3. Individual Flexibility vs. Collective Needs

• Letting individuals choose days and engagement levels undermines collective benefit.
• The pandemic justified “choose your own adventure” models, but post-pandemic, organizations must prioritize team needs over individual preferences.
  • "If I get to pick the day I want to come in, but it doesn't suit anybody else... you come in and there's almost nobody there on that day. And so then you say, why am I here?" — Peter Cappelli [16:15]

Practical Solutions & Best Practices

1. Write and Enforce Clear Rules

• Virtual Meetings:
  • Cameras on, limited participant numbers, enforce agendas, restrict meeting length.
  • Example: Atlassian requires cameras on; GitLab publishes extensive remote behavior guidance.
    • "You need to write it down, you need to enforce it." — Rania Neme [13:49]
• Workplace Attendance:
  • Set anchor days for in-office work and enforce them.
  • Consistency across teams is crucial to avoiding isolation.

2. Intentional Socialization and Onboarding

• Focus on relationship-building especially for new hires: cohort onboarding, mentoring, cross-team lunches.
• Office should be used for what can’t be done remotely (e.g., serendipitous interaction, deep collaboration)—not just “bread and circuses.”
  • "We're not suggesting bread and circuses, right? We're saying rules... we're bringing them back in because it's important to be there." — Peter Cappelli [20:23]

3. Performance and Communication

• Track Interactions: Use IT to measure replies to Slack/Teams, meeting time, help requests.
• Incentivize Supportive Behavior: Make helping, mentoring, peer support part of KPIs and tie to bonuses/promotions.
• 360 Feedback: Peer evaluations help reward collaborative behavior, not just individual output.

4. Manage Change—Tell the Story

• Companies must articulate the “burning platform”—why change is needed.
• Share clear data to support policies (e.g., time to onboard, decline in help given).
  • "You have to start with the burning platform story. You know, why do we have to do this?... and we got to deal with it." — Peter Cappelli [24:07]

5. Talent Retention

• Threats to quit if required to return are mostly overblown: only a small fraction actually leave.
• Flexibility should be genuine but not at the cost of collective effectiveness.
  • "People always threaten to quit in surveys when in fact they don't quit, right? So the relationship... is about 8% or something like that. And part of the reason is you gotta have a place to go." — Peter Cappelli [27:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Hybrid is failing, I'd say most prominently because people just don't come." — Peter Cappelli [14:28]
• "The worst situation is to have rules and not enforce them, which is what's happening now." — Peter Cappelli [26:15]
• "Only 12% of employees strongly agree that their organization has a hybrid work policy that works well." — Rania Neme, citing Gallup [30:57]
• "If the goal is, look, we really need people to be back in the office, they wouldn't be so bent out of shape about it. If you wait five years to tell them, then they're irritated." — Peter Cappelli [31:25]
• "Communicate. It's very important... to communicate very clearly, very transparently what they have in mind, what's working, what's not working. Involve employees." — Rania Neme [32:16]
• "Rein in meetings. Everybody hates them now, so it's easy to make an improvement. Right." — Peter Cappelli [32:32]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:29] — Are remote workers more productive?
• [05:59] — The challenge of onboarding and social capital
• [07:38] — How remote & hybrid hurt culture/collaboration
• [12:19] — Solutions for better meetings
• [14:28] — The problem of attendance and "coffee badging"
• [16:15] — The shift in employer vs. employee leverage
• [21:23] — Practical steps to assess and fix hybrid setups
• [24:07] — Why you need to make the case for change
• [26:15] — Why unenforced rules are the worst
• [29:29] — On promotions and career risks for remote workers
• [31:25] — The importance of timing and consistent messaging
• [32:16] — Final practical tips for improving hybrid work

Practical Takeaways

• Write, communicate & enforce clear hybrid policies.
• Prioritize in-person time for high-value activities (team-building, collaboration).
• Measure and incentivize collaborative behavior, not just solo work.
• Tackle meetings head-on as the easiest point of intervention.
• Communicate the ‘why’ for policy changes early and often to reduce resistance.

Conclusion

This episode underscores that effective hybrid work isn’t self-managing. Success requires intention, well-communicated rules, consistent enforcement, and a focus on both organizational and employee needs—especially around collaboration and social ties. Otherwise, firms risk the “race to the bottom” where neither business results nor employee satisfaction are achievable.