Podcast Summary: HBR IdeaCast — How to Lead with Courage in Chaotic Times

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Alison Beard (A), Adi Ignatius (B)
Guest: Ranjay Gulati, Harvard Business School Professor, Author of How to Be Bold and HBR article “Now is the Time for Courage”

Overview

This episode dives into the urgent need for courageous leadership in today’s rapidly shifting, unpredictable business environment. Host Alison Beard interviews Professor Ranjay Gulati about how leaders at every level can cultivate courage and act boldly in the face of fear and uncertainty. Gulati breaks down five actionable strategies for instilling courage, backed by research and real-world examples from CEOs, frontline managers, and whistleblowers. The discussion also covers how leaders can create organizational cultures where courage is possible—and necessary.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Courage Matters for Leaders Today

[00:43–02:31]

• Skills needed by leaders have shifted from empathy to strategic transformation and courage due to mounting uncertainty and rapid change.

• Courage isn’t about fearlessness, but about taking action amid fear—a quality institutions often stifle for the sake of consistency and risk-aversion.

• Notable examples: Reed Hastings (Netflix) and Ed Stack (Dick's Sporting Goods) made bold pivots that required acting without certainty of outcome.

  “Courage is being able to lean into that fear, saying, this is scary, but, but we’re still gonna do it.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [03:08]

2. The Nature of Uncertainty and Its Impact

[04:12–05:43]

• Uncertainty, unlike risk, involves unknown outcomes and triggers organizational fear and paralysis (“freeze response”).

• Gulati points out that measures of uncertainty in business (e.g., the VIX index, CEO earnings call transcripts) are at elevated levels.

  “We have geopolitical uncertainty, we have technological uncertainty, we have economic uncertainty... and I can go on and on.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [04:20]

3. Companies That Act in Uncertain Times Survive and Thrive

[05:43–06:18]

• Research indicates that only 9% of companies use recessions as growth opportunities; these firms combine cost-cutting with strategic investment.

• Courage is not innate—leaders at all levels can grow into it through necessity or circumstance.

  “Some were extraordinary people, some were ordinary people who had never done anything bold in their life before.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [07:51]

Five Strategies to Cultivate Courage

[09:40–26:19]

1. Create a Positive Narrative

[10:29–12:12]

• Courage is a proactive choice rooted in our self-story: identity (who am I?) and meaning (why am I here?).

• Examples: A Ukrainian lawyer-turned-commando and Francis Haugen (Facebook whistleblower) reframed their situations around purpose and responsibility.

  “When you’re leading an organization ... what’s your story to yourself? I’m here to win, I’m here to make a difference, I’m here to have an impact.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [11:26]

2. Cultivate Confidence

[12:12–16:16]

• Two layers: domain confidence (knowing your craft) and generalized “can do” spirit (self-efficacy).

• Carol Dweck’s “growth mindset” and Albert Bandura's research: confidence to act, improvise, and learn in real time.

  “Just because we don’t have all the information doesn’t mean we need to sit out and wait... that can do spirit is something that is a much harder thing to instill inside yourself and inside organizations.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [13:32]

3. Take Small Steps (Act Your Way Into Knowing)

[18:40–21:22]

• Originates from Karl Weick’s “sensemaking” research: in uncertainty, act first, then interpret.

• Small experiments, pilots, and rapid learning loops: e.g., Nike moving from footwear into apparel; Netflix shifting from DVDs to streaming to original content.

  “Instead of knowing everything and then taking action, you walk in, you take cues connected to patterns you’ve seen before... you tiptoe your way into it.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [19:24]

4. Find Connection (Courage as a Team Sport)

[16:38–17:58]

• Courage isn’t solo—leaders draw on four types of support: moral, informational, resource, and appraisal.

• Surround yourself with allies who challenge, support, and supply perspective, not just yes-people.

  “These courageous individuals look for four kinds of support... the idea that when you have the right forms of support, it gives you courage.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [17:08]

5. Stay Calm (Emotional Regulation)

[21:22–26:19]

• Emotional regulation is essential: distance yourself from fear, establish calming rituals, and reframe setbacks as opportunities.

• Focus on the process and learning, not just outcomes.

• Example: Simone Biles withdrew from Olympics to manage anxiety, used ritual and reframing to return stronger.

  “We have to first figure out how do I selectively tune myself out of the emotional response I’m having... when we do rituals, it creates kind of a sense of normality over what may not look normal.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [22:13, 21:54]

How Leaders Can Foster Bravery Across Teams

[26:21–29:18]

• Leaders must be “context architects”—design environments where experimentation and failure are safe.

• Embodiment is more than role-modeling: leaders must authentically live their values and courage.

• Organizations should celebrate courage through storytelling, not just corporate values statements.

  “As a leader, you have to create the conditions in which people behave. You’re a context architect... you can’t mandate it either.”
  — Ranjay Gulati [27:09]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Courage is being able to lean into that fear, saying, this is scary, but we’re still gonna do it.” — Ranjay Gulati [03:08]
• “Organizations go from playing to win... to playing not to lose. How do you jumpstart that winning spirit?” — Ranjay Gulati [15:43]
• “Courage is a team sport.” — Ranjay Gulati [16:48]
• “If you have only outcome measures and you’re not thinking of the process measures, I think that’s the challenge. I think you need both.” — Ranjay Gulati [24:23]
• “Inspiration, inspired behavior, leads to courageous action because you’re doing it for a larger cause. And I think hitting an EBITDA number is not inspiring.” — Ranjay Gulati [25:28]
• “Courage is not reckless.” — Ranjay Gulati referencing Aristotle [29:48]

Evaluating Smart, Impactful Courage

[29:18–32:01]

• Key distinction: courage is thoughtful and impactful, not reckless.

• Real courage is pragmatic—aimed at making a difference, not just grand gestures.

• The world—and business—needs more clear, brave voices amid transformational change and rising silence (e.g., on AI risks and sustainability).

  “Courage is not reckless.” — Ranjay Gulati [29:48]
  “I for one would be really thrilled to hear more clear voices with a clear point of view that is necessary today.” — Ranjay Gulati [31:35]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• [00:43] — Why courage, not just empathy, is now essential for leaders
• [03:08] — What courage looks like in organizations
• [09:40] — Examples of courage at every level, from CEOs to frontline employees
• [10:29–26:19] — The five strategies for courageous action
• [26:21] — How leaders can foster organizational cultures of bravery
• [29:18] — Evaluating ‘smart’ courage and the need for more brave leadership

Host closing: The conversation closes with appreciation for Gulati’s research and practical insights, emphasizing the need for bold leadership in all sectors as uncertainty grows.