Jimmy Fallon and Bozoma Saint John on What It Takes for People, Products, and Brands to Break Through

Summary

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HBR IdeaCast: Jimmy Fallon and Bozoma Saint John on What It Takes for People, Products, and Brands to Break Through

Date: October 14, 2025
Guests: Jimmy Fallon, Bozoma Saint John
Host(s): Alison Beard, Adi Ignatius

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Brief Overview

This episode of HBR IdeaCast explores how individuals and brands can break through the noise in today’s rapidly evolving media and marketing landscape. Comedian and talk show host Jimmy Fallon, alongside renowned marketing executive Bozoma Saint John, unpack their personal experiences adapting to changing technologies, building authentic personal and professional brands, leading creative teams, and creating moments that genuinely capture public attention. The discussion is framed by their new show On Brand, a reality competition focused on amateur creatives developing ad campaigns for major brands.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adapting to Disruption and Media Evolution

• Changing Landscape: Both guests reflect on how entertainment and marketing have evolved from cable to internet, streaming, and social media.
• Staying Relevant: Constant adaptation, listening to how people communicate, and willingness to experiment are crucial.
  • Jimmy Fallon: “[Media] changes day by day by day… you have to learn it and adapt to it. And I think number one is still YouTube…” [04:46]
• Metrics & Data: Fallon embraces data to refine his content and approach across platforms.

2. Breaking Through the Noise

• Consistency & Authenticity: It’s not just about using every platform—it’s about showing up in a genuine way.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “The consistency is how you show up. If every day you’re trying to be something different on the platform, nobody’s gonna trust you.” [06:20]
• Trying on Different Styles: Fallon and Saint John both stress experimenting to find your true “style” but staying consistent once you discover it.

3. Building Personal Brand & Authenticity

• Personal Brand as Reputation: Saint John demystifies personal branding—it's essentially your reputation and should be authentic rather than a calculated persona.
  • Bozoma Saint John: "Personal brand gets a little confused sometimes because people are trying to strategize around it. If you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time." [09:37]
• Trust and Character: Authenticity leads to trust because you never “come out of character.”
  • Jimmy Fallon (quoting): "Always tell the truth because it's too much work to lie." [10:27]

4. Leadership Styles & Team Building

• Saint John:
  • Leadership style adapts to the environment but always centers on knowing details, being present, and understanding each team member’s contribution.
  • Uses the metaphor of matter/molecules: small changes in a team’s makeup can transform everything.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “Matter is a team... change one molecule, and the whole thing changes.” [15:03]
• Fallon:
  • Values showing up, gratitude, and making everyone feel seen—from crew members to stars.
  • Lessons from Cameron Crowe and Lorne Michaels on showing appreciation for all contributions.
  • Bozoma Saint John (about Fallon): "I've never seen anyone do it like Jimmy does… recognizing people’s contributions... making people feel like they are part of something even bigger." [17:07–18:02]

5. Navigating Creative Collaboration & Strong Opinions

• Balancing Passion with Collaboration: Strong ideas and passions are vital but, once a direction is set, commitment to the chosen path matters most.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “As part of a creative team, you do have to follow the direction of whomever is in charge. ...once an idea has been chosen to go forward, everybody put your energy into making sure that idea is what wins.” [21:36]
• Idea Ownership: Fallon believes in sparking ideas and letting others improve on them, not needing the credit for the final result.

6. Brand Integration and Capitalizing on Cultural Moments

• Brand Integration: Success happens when it feels natural; “forced” placements are unconvincing.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “Brands are trying to find integration in scenarios where they simply shouldn't be because it's not natural... it just wasn't natural to them. ...when you're in this space, it should be obvious.” [26:54]
• Cultural Capital: Leveraging timely trends and doing so authentically is crucial; play to one's strengths and current role rather than attempt to be something you're not.

7. Risk, Controversy, and Corporate Responsibility

• Staying True but Non-Political: Fallon discusses keeping his content family-friendly and apolitical, recognizing that others may specialize in political humor.
  • Jimmy Fallon: “I just stick to what I do best.” [30:53]
• Speaking Out as a Leader: Saint John insists that leaders must have and express opinions, accepting consequences as part of their role, especially in moments when society demands a stance.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “I don’t have a lot of respect for leaders who come in and do nothing.” [32:54]

8. Practical Advice for Senior Leaders & Marketers

• Be Different, Take Risks: Think beyond formulaic approaches; the most memorable campaigns surprise and instantly become familiar.
  • Jimmy Fallon: "Do something fresh, do something new and something we haven't seen, and that will pop." [33:26]
• On AI in Branding: The panel jokes about AI's lack of taste, hinting at its current limitations in creative fields.
  • Bozoma Saint John: “We had some people who didn’t have no taste either. So there you go.” [35:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "My personal brand became what it is... because it's actually just me."
  Bozoma Saint John [09:27]
• "Being mad doesn't work."
  Jimmy Fallon [14:13]
• "You change one molecule, and the entire matter changes."
  Bozoma Saint John [15:03]
• "All the great leaders show up."
  Jimmy Fallon [16:40]
• "I've never seen anyone do it like Jimmy does... making people feel like they are part of something even bigger."
  Bozoma Saint John [17:07–18:02]
• On leadership and showing gratitude:
  Jimmy Fallon: "He made that person feel like a million bucks. ...I'll never forget that." (on Cameron Crowe directing an extra) [19:13]
• "If you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time."
  Bozoma Saint John [09:37]
• "Take chances, take risks. Everyone says take risks, obviously, but I mean, really do something fresh..."
  Jimmy Fallon [33:26]
• "I don’t have a lot of respect for leaders who come in and do nothing."
  Bozoma Saint John [32:54]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:36: What’s the current secret to capturing attention in media and branding?
• 06:20: On consistency, personal involvement, and breaking through noise
• 08:44: Building personal brands authentically versus mimicking others
• 13:18: Leadership philosophies and adapting styles across environments
• 15:03: Saint John’s “molecule” metaphor for building creative teams
• 18:23: Lessons on gratitude and recognition from SNL and Cameron Crowe
• 21:36: Balancing strong opinions with team consensus
• 26:54: Brand integration authenticity—what works and what flops
• 27:36: Capitalizing on cultural moments without seeming forced
• 29:50: Navigating political risks and responsibility as a public figure and executive
• 32:41: Direct advice for leaders trying to make their brands stand out
• 34:36: AI’s (limited) creative role and taste in branding

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Conclusion

This spirited and insightful conversation demystifies what it takes for people, products, and brands to stand out in an ever-crowded, fast-changing environment. Both Fallon and Saint John underline the enduring power of authenticity, consistency, genuine leadership, experimentation, and calculated risk-taking as the keys to not just breaking through, but also sustaining attention and trust.

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Transcript

[Adi Ignatius]

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[Jimmy Fallon]

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[Alison Beard]

I'm Alison Beard.

[Adi Ignatius]

And I'm Adi Ignatius. And this is HBR IdeaCast.

[Alison Beard]

So, Adi, you are very familiar with both of the guests on today's show. One is a comedian and talk show host, Jimmy Fallon. The other is a marketing executive turned reality TV star, Bozma St John. But what they have in common beyond TV, is an expertise on how to create breakthrough moments for themselves, their offerings, and all of the brands that they're associated with. And we know that's really important now because it's an increasingly crowded, complex, confusing media and advertising market.

[Adi Ignatius]

Yeah. When you first told me you were going to interview Jimmy and Bozeman, my first thought was, okay, that's, that's pretty interesting. You know, I've interviewed Bose. She's incredible. She was an executive at Pepsi, at Apple, at Netflix. So, you know, I get what she's all about. Jimmy Fallon, you know, I watched him on Saturday Night Live.

[Jimmy Fallon]

I've.

[Adi Ignatius]

I've watched him on the Tonight Show. He's energetic, he's entertaining. I'd be interested. You know, what does he know about this? What does he have to say about marketing?

[Alison Beard]

They're both people who, over the course of their long careers, in different ways, have shown a really uncanny ability to adapt to new trends, particularly technological ones, and keep capturing the attention and imagination of diverse consumers. Most recently, they've teamed up for a reality competition show called On Brand. It's sort of like Shark Tank, but it's amateur creatives competing to design ad campaigns for companies like Dunkin and Southwest. And I would say that the show vastly over oversimplifies the business of marketing. But it is an interesting tool in and of itself because each episode functions as an ad because it's totally about one company. But it was a really good reason for getting them onto our show to talk about lots of issues, not just branding.

[Adi Ignatius]

Yeah, no, I'm sure. Look, I mean, they're both incredibly energetic, incredibly entertaining, have an audience, you know, I'm interested. What were, what were some of those issues?

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, so in addition to talking about how to market companies and products, we talked about how to market yourself, you know, in your career. We talked about how they show up as leaders of creative teams and balance sort of having strong points of view with being collaborative. We talked about how they innovate on different platforms like TikTok and YouTube. And then what type of marketing really does break through? Here is that interview with Bozma St. John, the former CMO of Netflix, and Jimmy Fallon, host of the Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon. Together, they host on brand.

[Interviewer/Host]

The entertainment media and marketing industries have changed dramatically since both of you started your careers. You know, there was cable and then Internet and then streaming and then social. So what would you say is really the secret to capturing attention now? You know, whether it's an individual or a show or a corporate brand?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Sure. I mean, God, you made it sound like we started the Stone Ages, girl. I mean, but it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, that's when I started.

[Bozoma Saint John]

So, like, tonic. Speak for yourself. No, but you're right. Look, the landscape has changed dramatically in the last 20 years, right? The way that consumers, like, listen to entertainment or watch entertainment has changed. I find that, you know, being on top of just what people are communicating with each other is the only way in which you can be part of the conversation, you know, whether you're a brand or an individual. A show like ours, I mean, obviously Jimmy is on TV every day, and so he has the pressure of being able to evolve so that he can continue to keep the audience that he has. So I guess my perspective is just from a brand lens, you know, which is that in order to stay relevant, you really do have to pay attention to the time.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah, I think it changes day by day by day by day. You never really can. And there's probably like, a couple weeks where you go like, hey, this is where everyone's going. And then it changes, like, nope, they invented a new thing called Flip Flop. Everyone's on Flip Flop. And you go, what? I even heard of that. And they go, oh, you got to sign up. You're late to the game. But it's always changing, and I'm always interested in seeing what the next moves are, you know, especially social media. When we first started Late Night, I remember one of our producers, Gavin Purcell, who's fantastic, he was like, you got to get on Twitter. And I was like, what is that? Well, it's this thing. And he's explaining Twitter to me. You know, I go, okay. And then I'm like, and we'll put our shows on Twitter. Yeah, we can do, like, streaming shows, like, just before we even start up Late night, just to get a following going. And I remember getting like maybe 100 followers and. And I was jumping up and down. I was that into it. Love metrics. I love data. I love to see how things are go up or down or sideways or what type of people are listening or retweeting or we just jumped on and tried everything when it comes out and see if it works for you. And you kind of have to learn it and adapt to it. And I think number one is still YouTube, you know, as far as growth and how much engagement with everybody, it's just the biggest thing. And I don't know if there's anything close.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you have though all these channels varying in popularity, but all the smart people and shows and brands are on them, are trying all of them, how do you craft either a Persona or a campaign that can break through all of that noise?

[Bozoma Saint John]

I think some of it has to be consistency. Just back to the last question. Also want to give props to Jimmy himself as a person because he really does throw himself into the creative and into the work, you know. So yes, social media is a powerful tool, but without him actually being in it and you know, doing the trend every day, my point is that like, it's not just like, oh, there's this tool and this platform out there and you know, try to engage on it. Jimmy is putting himself in the work and I think that's actually necessary. Whether it's a show or a brand, the consistency is how you show up. If every day you're trying to be something different on the platform, nobody's gonna trust you. You know, people don't like that.

[Jimmy Fallon]

I think that's also how you find your brand.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Fallon]

You know, by trying everything on, you go, hey, do I wear bangs? Do I, you know, do I have a bob? Do I have a short hair? You have to try it to see if that's your style and you go, hey, I think I found my style, everybody. I think for me growing up, I was a very fad type of person. I was really into fads and trying new things and I was wearing, you know, zipper pants. This is in the 80s.

[Interviewer/Host]

Jams.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Jams, the best. I love my jams. Oh my gosh.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Fallon]

That generation, I feel like they were just fads. There were things that were in for like two years and then out. Even the music in the 80s, it's like more one hit wonders, I think, than any decade. But that was because everyone's trying new things and seeing what's happened. So I think my brain growing up in that generation of having one offs and One hit wonders and things constantly changing and what am I into? Probably influenced who I am today and how I can function with changing things. And are you good with change? A lot of people aren't good with change and it freaks people out. And they go, I can't have a new office. I'm used to my old office.

[Interviewer/Host]

Different platform, same person.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. But like Bozeman was saying, you have to try and you got to get up to bat and swing, you know, and sometimes you hit a home run, sometimes you strike out, but at least you're trying.

[Interviewer/Host]

Both of you have very strong personal brands, and I think a lot of that comes from authenticity. But how did you think about that as sort of you built your careers. Bozma for you in marketing with big jobs at Pepsi and Uber and Apple and Netflix, and Jimmy for you with moving from Stand up to SNL to films and then Late night.

[Bozoma Saint John]

A personal brand is such an interesting thing because many people will say that, like, oh, that's like a waste of time, especially if you're in corporate settings. But really it's just new language for what a reputation is. When I started out in this business, of course I was trying to mimic the successful people ahead of me. You know, it's like I looked at the corner offices and said, okay, what are they wearing? How do they talk in meetings? What are the ideas they bring? Like, how do they do the thing they do and why do people listen to them? And I just tried to mimic it. Unfortunately, that did not work. You know, and it didn't work for all the reasons that now, as more mature adults we know, is because it just didn't fit, you know, and you can't be authentic. And I know it's an overused word, but like we were saying before, even as Jimmy explained about, you know, trying things on and seeing what fits, for me, it was like this unraveling of who I was trying to be versus who I am. My personal brand became what it is and is because it's actually just me. You know, it's like I do wear interesting clothes and I do gesture a lot with my hands and I cry because I get emotional and my hair is always something different. All of those things allow me the freedom to be exactly who I am in every room. And it has made me a better executive, it has made me a better mother, it's made me a better friend, it's made me a better, better contributor to society and a better creative for all those reasons. And so I think the Personal brand gets a little confused sometimes because people are trying to strategize around it. And I'm like, no, if you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Is it because people can trust you?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, right. Because then you never come out of character. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah. I forget who said, but someone said, yeah, God, always. I always tell the truth because it's too much work to lie.

[Bozoma Saint John]

This is too hard.

[Interviewer/Host]

What about you, Jimmy?

[Jimmy Fallon]

I think when I first started out, I was just hungry and I was focused on getting on Saturday Night Live. That was my goal. So I did stand up and I did impressions of celebrities because I knew that Saturday Night Live used those people on the show to do characters and impressions. So that was gonna be my way into Saturday Night Live and my standup. I would do impressions of John Travolta. You know, I'd be like, jesus, I swear to God, I can't be like, believe this over here. Like, Sandy, what's going on? Right? Like, do. And I don't know why, but that led to other characters, which led to me doing Adam Sandler, where it's like, you know, it's like. And you do all that type of stuff, and then you go, oh, that stuff we can maybe use, you know? And I just think that was my ultimate goal, is just getting into Siren Live. And let's just check that off. That's like the bucket list. But that was my goal, and I got that at 23. And then once you get it, you go, okay, now what do I do with this? Because I didn't plan ahead. I didn't have three other goals. That was it for me. I'm like, oh, I got to figure out what my next goal is. So do you want to be a movie star? Do you want to be a sitcom star? Do you want to record music? What is your thing? So I've kind of had to think of a new goal and kind of find it as I was going and see if it kind of fit. I think always for me, as far as material wise, it was very family friendly. You know, I never really cursed in my actor. You know, it's kind of almost prudish. I think it was my Irish Catholic upbringing, but that's not really changed for me. So that kind of stayed on Brand, but I think I kind of just grew and said, well, maybe I can do this. And then if that didn't work out, I tried movies. They didn't really work. And then you just kind of go back to, like, just Trying stuff and seeing what sticks and, you know, getting into the talk show world. I didn't really know what I was doing either there, but, you know, I got a lot of practice and I was on at 12:30 at night where no one was watching.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think a few people were watching.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah, maybe like prison guards and college kids, but I mean, I had to do that and kind of figure out there how to have an interview, how to talk to somebody. Am I nervous? You know, I still get nervous, you know, but it's fun. It's because I care, I think, you know, and I, I want to do a great job, but you get another opportunity and then you grow and you see how you can do that best.

[Interviewer/Host]

It sounds like you both very much found your distinct lanes, you know, despite the fact that you're both in crowded fields. How would each of you describe your leadership brand? Right, because you're both bosses. You're running organizations, you're running shows, you're running teams of people. What is your unique style or the unique thing that you bring?

[Jimmy Fallon]

Bose is better at this than I am. My leadership is better.

[Interviewer/Host]

No, but you are. You are an informal leader, even if you're not called the CEO of the Tonight Show.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, but he's still my boss. I mean, I still consider my boss, honestly. So, hell, you're a leader of me if nothing else. Okay.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah. Come on. But, I mean, but you have that feeling when you get in the room with, with Bozeman St. John. You go, whoa, this is like, she's in charge. Yeah, we feel like someone, yeah, someone smart is in the room. Whereas I'm here. It's like, oh, my gosh, we have, you know, Uncle Buck is here.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my God.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Substitute teachers here. I'm always reading books. And I'd be curious to ask you also what books I should read too, like for management. And I love all that stuff and I love self help books and learning constantly about how to do it better and even if not, remind yourself of what works and what doesn't work. Like being mad doesn't work. I know that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. Being mad doesn't work.

[Jimmy Fallon]

It just does. Right?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Well, it's so interesting. I think my leadership style has changed, of course, over years and, you know, different experiences. Like the way that I led my Apple Music team in launching the, the brand and the service itself was far different from the way I led when I became chief marketing officer of Netflix one because they were so different in terms of not just the product, but the time, you know, I started Netflix. We were Two months into the pandemic, and I remember my first staff meeting. I mean, there's, like, well over a thousand marketers, and I didn't see anybody's face. And I think I'm the kind of leader that does need to be in the room. You know, I like to be in front of people. I want to see your face and your reaction and see if, like, what I'm saying is inspiring. Is it funny? Like, do you. Are you confused by what I'm saying? Like, I need all of that.

[Jimmy Fallon]

A reaction?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, I need something, you know, and it was such an impossible time of trying to inspire people to be more creative and think out of the box and, like, all of the things that we say at a time when nobody knew what the hell was going on. But the constant theme throughout, I think, for me in leadership has always been knowing the detail, you know, of what is going on, like, understanding what people are interested in on my teams, you know, because the challenge is that you put all of the pressure on the results, and you don't think about the people. And I have had the kind of career where in order to really do the work, we had to be so close to culture. I needed different types of people on my team, people who didn't know what I know. I take a lot from physics, you know, which is, like, the idea of matter. Matter is made up of molecules, and you change one molecule, and the entire matter changes. For me, I'm like, matter is a team, you know, the people that I'm working with. And you change one molecule, and the whole thing changes. And so understanding the importance of every single person who is contributing, regardless, they can be the assistant or they could be the SVP of a region. Like, their contributions are so important. So making people know that so that they want to show up to their job, they want to do the best job that they could do because they know how important they are. Because I told them that has been a constant leadership tool for me.

[Interviewer/Host]

I love that.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Also what you just said, too, also showing up, I think, is one thing that you learn as the more you do this, is that all the great leaders show up.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Whether it's a restaurant. I've seen restaurants fail because you go, hey, we had a great year. I don't have to go in anymore.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And you go, no, wait, Jimmy, I'm gonna interrupt you one second. Cause actually, I have a story about Jimmy on his leadership, and this is gonna embarrass you, so whatever. Like, you just got to deal with it, you know, we had, like, over, like, 270 crew members, I think, on. On Brand, I've always felt that I'm a friendly person. You know, I see people, I say hello, you know, all of that stuff. But I've never seen anyone do it like Jimmy does. We were walking onto set one day, and somebody was, like, nailing something on a wall, like, bent over in the corner, and Jimmy was like, hey, bud, you're doing a great job. Like, I've never seen anybody do that in my life. You know what I mean? Like, just paying attention to the small things and the showing up is also in recognizing people's contributions. And so for Jimmy, I think leadership is not just, like, how he commands a production to be done or, like, his contributions to, like, oh, let's use this line or change this word. But also making people feel like they are part of something even bigger and that they're important. And I saw that in action.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, it sounds like the sort of infectious spirit that you sort of bring to the show, you know, to public facing engagements. You're also practicing behind the scenes. Did you learn that leadership style? You know, the idea of keeping it fun, of showing gratitude to even the smallest players. Did you learn that on SNL from people like Lorne Michaels?

[Jimmy Fallon]

Lorne Michaels, yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the things I learned from him is showing up and just being there for everybody. I think as the part of gratitude, one of my biggest lessons, I learned from Cameron Crowe, who's a great writer, director, but he directed me. I was in Almost Famous. You can cue the applause now.

[Interviewer/Host]

I thought you were gonna go straight to Fever Pitch, but okay, no, I'll.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Start with my first one. I'll go into my filmography after that.

[Bozoma Saint John]

This.

[Jimmy Fallon]

This podcast is three hours, right? All right, perfect. So I remember I was on set, and I saw Cameron giving notes to this extra, and he was like, okay, you had a long day. Okay, you got three more tables, and then you get to go home just giving direction to this extra. And then they did action. And the extra didn't have any lines. Yeah, it's just in the background.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Fallon]

And I was like, whoa. No one was looking at him. He was just him and this extra talking. And he made that person feel like a million bucks. And that made everybody go like, we're all doing this. Everybody's worth something here. This is awesome. And I'll never forget that. And it was the coolest thing that he did. So I think combo of that and Lorne Michaels and Sarrant Live and I think all the different hosts that come in on Sarant Live too, and talking to all them and just. And seeing how some people brought that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sort of positive addition to the matter that Bose was talking about and caring.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah. And just go like, oh, that was great what you did. I like that. Or when these celebrities host Saturday Night Live, they're coming to a place that they're not used to, you know. So if you have Robert De Niro, for example, like, I remember him asking me where his mark was. Jimmy, where's my mark? I'm like, I'm not going to tell Robert De Niro anything. You can stand wherever you want, dude. I'm good. He's like, no, I don't really know because I've never done this. And I go, oh, it's right there. And then you're going to land. You're going to say the lines facing that way. He's like, okay, cool. Like, just like help each other. We're on the team now. I'm like, I just gave direction to Robert De Niro what is going on in my life. Which is great.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

So we all know that sort of the best creative teams come from putting people together with diverse points of view and everyone sharing their ideas and brainstorming together. But how do you all, as strong personalities with good ideas? I imagine because you've been very successful. How do you balance sort of expressing your own opinions, putting your own stamp on things with also working collaboratively and bringing in the opinions of others?

[Bozoma Saint John]

That's a tough one.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Bozoma Saint John]

You know, for me, I get very passionate in every job I've had, you know, passionate about how the things should land because I'm like, oh, I know that's going to garner results. Sometimes I've been wrong. But I always have a strong point of view. I'm thinking back to times when it's like, look, as part of a creative team, you do have to follow the direction of whomever is in charge. You know, it's kind of like a coach or like, you know, general or something. Like if everybody doesn't fall in line, it's liable that you go wrong. You know. And so at some point, as a creative, you can have a strong idea, you can think it's the best one, but if it is not the one that goes forward, you have to submit.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And help the next person. And so back to your question about leadership. It is something I've always encouraged my teams once I've been in the seat as the CMO to decide which idea goes forward. And now everybody get behind that idea.

[Interviewer/Host]

Disagree, and then commit, oh, you know.

[Bozoma Saint John]

We should have done this, should have done that. That's when we're all going to fail. So it's like once an idea has been chosen to go forward, everybody put your energy into making sure that that idea is what wins.

[Interviewer/Host]

How do you steer people with good, well meaning ideas in better directions?

[Jimmy Fallon]

This is just me, but I always like to say at least my point of view on something, just to say it. And then there's probably someone in the room that might be better at whatever the thing is, and I'll let them hear my idea and hopefully it sparks something that they can land the plane. And I don't need to take credit for it. For instance, Southwest, we did this episode last night that you watched, but the challenge was to wrap a plane. Basically paint the side of an airplane. So it's a big thing and we're going, well, blah, blah, blah. How do you do that? Well, this is gonna be seen by a lot of people. And then Bozema goes, well, when I wrapped a plane for beats, I go, you wrapped a plane? Who else? I mean, that's. We're talking to someone who's done this. How many people do you know that wrapped a plane before? I mean, what are you talking about?

[Adi Ignatius]

I don't.

[Jimmy Fallon]

And it was just. I know now you do. Now you know two people. But I mean, it's wild. It was like, she's done this. What hits? What do people look at? What do they see? What are the things that pop? And you kind of go, that's great. We have someone that's played the game before.

[Interviewer/Host]

So, Jimmy, why at this point in your career did you feel qualified to host a show on branding and marketing?

[Jimmy Fallon]

I think because of all the years of Late night and Tonight show, and my job is basically selling things, you know, for my guests. I have them on and I pitch their movies or their music or, you know, I'm selling their wares, their products. I've kind of enjoyed it. When we have an integration or, you know, some brand goes, hey, is there any way you can mention toilet paper? You know, this week in the show? And I go, love it. Bring it on. What do you want? I can write whatever I want, right? I go, I will think of something. And then I go, yeah. And we'll talk about, hey, do you put the toilet paper roll over the top or do you put the toilet paper roll with the paper coming under? You know, and you have a debate and people get in fights and it's funny and, you know, that's a fun challenge. I've done that for the past 15 years. So that's a long time. A lot of shows. I think tonight show's hitting almost like it's 2,300th show or something crazy.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh, my God.

[Jimmy Fallon]

So I kind of love the stuff. And I had a weird again, just an odd idea and I love to throw them out. So I pitched it to NBC, I typed it up, bothered my wife with all these questions for months. And then I go, I think this is something I could pitch. And I pitched to NBC and they said, no, but thank you so much. You keep these ideas coming, buddy, and stay strong at late night. And you go, okay. And then I was like, I didn't let it die. I was like, I really do think this is something you should give a chance to. I think it's different. And, and as Bozeman was saying, we were talking about this and we're like, because it's a brand new type of business structure, even for paying for the show and all this stuff, but also what Bozeman was saying, it's kind of like a new playground. It's a new toy to play with for brands. Like, how much fun can we have?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, the companies are sort of sponsoring each episode, basically. And so the advertisement isn't necessarily what's generated by the contestants. It's the, the show itself.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I also wanna say that I know Jimmy. He, you know, has done a lot of work with brands, but he's also a student of marketing. We were just on a show together where, you know, we're playing a little quiz game of like, oh, the taglines and this and that. And Jimmy, you know, he was getting them. And not only like, he's got the jingles and he remembers. And so it's like, for someone who hasn't had a formal career in marketing, he's still an ad guy. Like, I would, I would consider him an ad guy. There is a natural love and curiosity for the business of marketing and advertising. And so that I think also has a great deal to do with why it's natural for him to be the one who developed the show and brought it to the world.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Yeah, I mean, I love a good ad. Don't you love to see a good campaign? Yes, I love a great campaign. Like, I think Ryan Reynolds. Ryan Reynolds is knocking it out of the park.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Amazing.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Actually, he's going to co author an article in our next issue about FastFortizing and how to Sort of quickly capitalize on a, on a cultural moment.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Oh, he's the best at that. But also probably people wouldn't have normally given him a chance had he been on a team or a famous ad agency. I mean, I think he used his fame to go like, give me a chance, I'm going to roll the dice in this.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, it sounds like you're saying that in this very crowded marketplace, as companies are thinking about how to break through, brand integration is one avenue that everyone's keen. There is a sort of obviousness to it though. Right. So how do you do it in a way that does feel authentic and not just like I'm being marketed to right now?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Well, I think it should be obvious. I feel like that's where brands go wrong when they try to be in a place where they're not naturally. We excuse Jimmy because he can actually do it very well. So like toilet paper maybe doesn't belong on his desk, but he's going to find a way to bring it in. But the challenge most times is that brands are trying to find integration in scenarios where they simply shouldn't be because it's not natural for them to be there. And that's why it falls apart. Not because like somebody was like sitting there holding their thing and saying, hey, look at this thing, you know, but because it just wasn't natural to them. And so it's like, look, when you're in this space, it should be obvious that I picked up my Pepsi and drank it because I was thirsty.

[Interviewer/Host]

And then the second sort of avenue you talked about was this idea of capitalizing on cultural moments. And Jimmy, you certainly do that with your show. Bozma, you did it. I'm sure working at Netflix and Apple and all these sort of fast paced consumer brands talk about how you do that in a way that does seem ham handed and actually does sort of reach the audience you're trying to get to.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Again, there has to be some authenticity behind it too. Even though it is the moment, but you take the moment and how do you make it you, you know, so if it is doing a Taylor Swift dance challenge, I could, you know, I can do it with Taylor. The other way to do it is to just do the dance challenge myself and be a 51 year old man trying to do a dance challenge on TikTok. And that's what it looks like. And it's like, that's more authentic. And you go, he's not trying to be a teenager, he's, he's acting his age. I mean I'm feeling it now. My era. I'm feeling I'm going into my old man era. I don't know. Or getting older era. I feel like if I'm at a high top table, like if I go to a restaurant with a high top, if I drop my napkin, I'm not picking it up. My back will hurt.

[Interviewer/Host]

And we definitely can't read the writing on the menus either.

[Jimmy Fallon]

So I'm not. Not the person yet that turns the flashlight on, but I'm real close.

[Bozoma Saint John]

I'm there.

[Jimmy Fallon]

You know what I mean? I'm real close.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

So speaking of being of the moment as a star, as a show, as a brand, you know, it is a very divisive time politically in the US We've seen companies come under fire for moves, celebrities canceled, and executives are really unsure what sort of risks they can take right now. And I think, you know, the most recent example, obviously in your world, Jimmy, is ABC pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air for comments about Charlie Kirk. And, you know, you have made a point of being family friendly and apolitical. So just talk a little bit about why you've made that decision and are sticking to it. And then I'd love to hear from both of you on how you think that corporate brands can navigate this moment and sort of do the right thing, speak out in moments that they find appropriate, but then not get embroiled in controversy.

[Jimmy Fallon]

I mean, it's also tricky, and it's all kind of moving very fast. Obviously, if there's a case of government versus the artist, I'm on the artist side. I think everyone should be able to say whatever they want. I think for me, I've kind of learned from Sirent Live how close you can get to the edge. For myself, which is being authentic. My monologues have kind of always been kind of the same. I have, like, probably four or five jokes that are kind of about the political world, and then five jokes about, you know, fast food or something, you know, And I think if you look in the New York Times, the next day I'm up there. My jokes are up there with all the other guys. But I just, I diversify myself with more poppy stuff that's just because of what I'm into. I just. They do it better than me, the politics stuff. And I'm happy that we have different voices out there and all talking. And if you want that, you can get it. So I think I just stick to what I do best.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Whether it be me dressing up as a showgirl and dancing with the K Pop demon hunters. You know, that feels on brand to me. I'm not sure if I would want to see any of the other guys do that. I can only pay attention to myself and do what I think is the funniest, sharpest, and most entertaining stuff every night.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yeah. You know, I think in the executive world, it gets tricky because, you know, you're representing yourself, but you're also representing the company. Where I think sometimes executives get scared, of course, is that their own personal view is going to be taken out of context or, you know, punish the company in a way. And I'm like, that is the truth. So grow up. Take a stand. Say something. You know, and if you get fired, so be it. And I remember that I was having a lot of these conversations five years ago when, you know, it's like Black Lives Matter was popping off and George Floyd had been murdered, and there'd been like, you know, people were like, oh, should we make a statement? And I had so many friends in the executive space. We were in our little group chats, and, you know, people were like, what should I say? And I'm like, well, what do you believe? You know, Right. Start there. You gotta start with wherever you are. And I think, first of all, this is way different from 20 years ago, where society did not expect to understand who's behind the wall. You know, it's like, now people want to know, what did the CEO think? What is their opinion on things? You know, where do they stand? What does the company care for? Those are all things that our consumers and our audiences want to know. And so you have to express it. And unfortunately, it's like, if that has backlash, then that is the job.

[Interviewer/Host]

What advice would you give to the senior leaders in our audience who are trying to make their brand stand out right now, especially when it's hard to take risks?

[Bozoma Saint John]

Well, I don't know why you have your job if you can't have a stance on something. You have to have an opinion, whether that is cultural opinion or it is an opinion about innovation and what you're going to create next for your company. I don't know of any senior leader who's been put in the job just to tread water. You've got to actually make a change. You've got to actually make some impact in the work that you're doing. And so I don't have a lot of respect for leaders who come in and do nothing.

[Jimmy Fallon]

I think be different as much as you can be different. Take chances, take risks. Everyone says Take risks, obviously, but I mean, really do something fresh, do something new and something we haven't seen, and that will pop. I think you've seen that with super bowl commercials, which I always go back to. I'm just a fan. But having a celebrity in a commercial used to be the big thing, right? You know, blah, blah, blah. It's Michael Jackson drinking Pepsi. Oh, my gosh. Now that's every commercial. So now what do you do? Because that already is done. Sometimes it was a QR code.

[Bozoma Saint John]

And you.

[Jimmy Fallon]

What is that? That was the. It was the whole ad. I don't even know if it worked, but it was something different and it popped. People were talking about it. So I think there's many ways to attack it from different angles. And I think just write them all out, see what way you can do it, and try to see what's the next or clever or different angle that no one else is doing. Then if you can do that and have people think that they've seen it before, that is the secret sauce. Because if you go like, oh, yeah, I'm used to that, of course. Where's the beef?

[Interviewer/Host]

I always say that surprisely becomes instantly familiar.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Yes, yes.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Well said, well said.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

I have one recommendation for next season. An AI contestant.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Oh. Huh. That's interesting. Wow, wow, wow. That would be something. Because that's a. I think that'd be okay. Alice would be embroiled in controversy is what's happening.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think that would be really interesting.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Hilarious.

[Interviewer/Host]

Brainstorming. It's developing concepts. It's thinking out of the box.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Do you think it would work? I don't think it would work.

[Bozoma Saint John]

No.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, or maybe AI assistance. Something. I think it's something to explore.

[Bozoma Saint John]

All right.

[Interviewer/Host]

I did talk to an executive who said the one thing AI doesn't have is taste. And so maybe that is the problem.

[Bozoma Saint John]

That's what it is. We had some people who didn't have no taste either. So there you go.

[Jimmy Fallon]

Exactly.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, thank you both so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Thank you.

[Jimmy Fallon]

This is awesome.

[Bozoma Saint John]

Thank you so much.

[Jimmy Fallon]

We loved it.

[Alison Beard]

That was marketing executive Bozma St. John and comedian Jimmy Fallon, who also host the new NBC show on brand. Next week, ADI looks at the impact of Freakonomics, 20 years after its publication with author Stephen Dubner. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate IdeaCast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. If you want to help leaders move the world forward, consider subscribing to Harvard Business Review. You'll get access to the HBR mobile app, the weekly Exclusive Insider newsletter, and unlimited access to HBR Online. Just head to hbr.org subscribe thanks to our team, Senior Producer Mary Du, Audio Product Manager Ian Fox, and Senior Production Specialist Rob Eckhart. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Alison Beard.

[Adi Ignatius]

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