Whitney Johnson (2:58)

Hello, Allison. How are you?

Alison Beard (3:00)

Let's Start with the immediate aftermath of an unexpected job loss or demotion. Is there anything that you recommend people do in the first hours or days to set themselves up for success later?

Whitney Johnson (3:11)

The first thing is just name what you're feeling when you lose a job. Be as precise as you can when you name something that you're feeling, you're going to be able to control it. And this is very difficult to do because career disruption can oftentimes trigger negative core beliefs like I'm not enough. And so just the ability to say something like I'm feeling anxious about this career disruption. Instead of unnamed anxiety, this amorphous threat that you can't do anything about, you now have a defined challenge that you can address strategically and consciously. So that's the very first thing. That's the emotional side of dealing with disruption. But then you go to the functional piece. Take time to reflect. What did I learn? Even if you did lose your job, there are things that you learned in the course of being there. And so think about during that particular time. What new skills did you learn? How have you increased your capacity to work with others? Or did you learn that you need to increase your capacity to work with others? Just take time to mark the moment of what you learned. Then you can go to, what are the constraints that I'm going to have? You may need to go into the bathroom and cry, or into your bathroom in your house and cry and just be able to name that. It's very difficult, I think. Give yourself grace because you're probably not going to handle it very well. And understand that to the extent that you can. If your boss has done a good job, it won't come as a super big surprise to you. But if it does, the more you can just stay curious and just try to understand, help me understand what's happening, why is this happening? And get as much information as you possibly can. But I think the most important thing is just to allow yourself to have the feeling that you're having.

Alison Beard (4:46)

And once you get through that visceral emotional reaction and maybe come to a place of acceptance that this is happening whether I like it or not, what do you do to then ready yourself for a job search suddenly?

Whitney Johnson (5:02)

So again, after you've had that opportunity to metabolize what's happened, you want to, like I started to say, take some time to reflect and just recognize even though you lost a job and it's going to be very easy to have this experience of this was terrible. You do want to recognize that there are lots of things that you learned and lots of experiences that you had, you developed skills, you developed as a leader. And so give yourself an opportunity to mark this moment and celebrate what done from there. Then you can start to think about what are my constraints that I have going forward? How much financial Runway do you have? How quickly do you need to find a job? Where do you want to live? Do you want to continue to live where you're living? Do you want a remote job? Do you want a hybrid job? What are some of those non negotiables? As you think about what comes next, you then want to very quickly audit some of your achievements. And I would hope that you've been doing that all along. So every time someone gives you a compliment of something you've done well, write it down, save that email, have a file folder so that you can bolster yourself in this point where you're feeling probably a little bit emotionally fragile and can't remember anything good that you've ever done, ever. And then you want to be able to think about what are the projects that people routinely ask you to work on and then start to dream about what you might do differently. You then importantly, and again, this is in the succeeding, probably days and weeks while you're recovering, is to think about your ecosystem and network what you've already done, what you know how to do, what you're thinking of doing next, and then have some conversations with people you trust. So let me give you an example. I had someone who used to work for us, then went to MBA school, now is in her first, you know, sort of post MBA job and she's on maternity leave and she's thinking about what she wants to do next and said, I'm thinking about doing X. It's a pivot. I think this would fit for me. What do you think? So getting my feedback, not asking for a job, but getting my feedback. And I was able to say to her, you know what? This makes sense to me. I think this is consistent with what I see your strengths are. And then perhaps the most important thing I would do is take all of that feedback. You've gotten the audit, you've done your strengths and looking at your current resume, thinking, and then go into AI and say, here are all my strengths. Look at this, analyze this. You're a career development expert. What do you think might be interesting for me to do next and use technology to help you dream about what might be possible?

Alison Beard (7:30)

It would be great if AI could scrape the Internet and actually find job postings for you now, but maybe you go to LinkedIn for that?

Whitney Johnson (7:37)

Yeah, I think. Well, and I think what would be interesting is that you could absolutely go to LinkedIn. So once you get that information, you can start looking through LinkedIn and just say, okay, you'd be great project manager. See what kind of project manager opportunities are out there, and then you can take it a step further and you can say, okay, here's the profile of a project manager on LinkedIn. Take my resume, take all my strengths and repurpose it for that project manager LinkedIn profile so that I can start to see myself in that new role or opportunity.

Alison Beard (8:10)

I love this use of technology to help in job searches. So if you know you need to move on, do you counsel people to find that new opportunity pretty quickly? Or is it better to be more deliberate, even if it means a lot more uncertainty and probably tighter finances?

Whitney Johnson (8:30)

You know, Alison, I think it really depends. The biggest challenge that you have when you lose a job is it gets in your head. It really gets in your head. There is a massive. For anybody who's ever been laid off, you know that psychologically you have to manage that. The more methodical you can be, as we just described, the better. But you also, at the same time, need to be very cognizant, vigilant around your head game, and be thinking about and be aware of what limiting beliefs are coming up. So this is probably more than any other time you may need to go to therapy. You need to. Need to go back to a coach in order to say, okay, I know how to do the work of looking for a job and what I might need to do next. But how do I keep my head in a place and a space where people will want to hire me and they won't sense that I'm desperate?

Alison Beard (9:22)

Yeah. So there is that cliche that it's much easier to find a new job when you're still in your old job. And if that's the case, how do you break through? Especially when it might be a time that lots of people have been laid off with your same skills?

Whitney Johnson (9:36)

So I think that once you're managing the emotional aspect of this, which we've addressed, one of the ways that you're going to break through, and an expression that I frequently find myself using is surprise and delightful. So you and I have both had experiences where people come say to us, I want to work for you, Alison, or, I want to work for you, Whitney, and here are all the reasons why this job would be amazing for me if you can instead say, all right, here are my skills here's what I do. Well, here's the problem that you are trying to solve. Here's how I can help you solve it. Here's what I bring to you. And you're willing to act as if you're already on the job and surprise and delight people. You're going to break through every day of the week, because most people don't do that. And when you do it from that place, it's not a place of desperation. It's a place of confidence. It's a place of I have something to offer that would be very valuable to you, and here's what it would look like.

Alison Beard (10:37)

Yeah. What about breaking through that initial resume screen that now maybe is done by AI? Is that about activating your network?

Whitney Johnson (10:47)

I never, ever, ever recommend someone try to get a job through an initial resume screening. I think it's just very tough. You have to figure out the algorithm and how to game the system. And I think people probably do get games, get jobs that way. Games. It is a game. Game of Thrones, probably. I do think that you're much better off. That's where you're going to activate your network and which goes into the question of, do you have a network to activate?

Alison Beard (11:17)

And if you don't, how do you get one quickly?

Whitney Johnson (11:20)

Yeah. I think you start with where you are. Everybody has some kind of network. And so how do you start with where you are and have that conversation and say, here's what I'm trying to do. What do you think? Do you know anybody that I could talk to and start there?

Alison Beard (11:36)

Yeah. Even if it's your former colleagues who, you know, have enjoyed working with you and feeling bad that they've kept their job and you've been laid off, how do you counsel people who find that their disruption is really dragging on and then starting to feel just more and more stressed about it? So that initial emotional response that they've calmed down, the further it goes, the more it comes back. I ask because I've had friends in this situation, and it's not just the person who's lost their job. It's their parents and their spouses and even their kids. You know, it filters down and it becomes.

Whitney Johnson (12:14)

Is really tense for everybody because they're worried about them, and then possibly money becomes an issue.

Alison Beard (12:20)

Yeah.

Whitney Johnson (12:21)

So I would say there's a dual track here, Alison. There's the one track. And I know I keep talking about the emotional aspect of it, but I think that this is so vitally important. And we don't think about it, and we don't talk about it enough. That when you have lost your job and you're looking for a new one and it's dragging on and on and on, I think sometimes that is trying to get your attention, that you need to pivot. So I think in order to manage that, I know from my own experience, you need a coach or you need a therapist. There are things that you need to do in order to be able to manage the process from there. I would say when it's dragging on and on, there's a product market fit. So in terms of what you want to do and what you're trying to get done and it's not working, sometimes you're much better off saying, okay, if this isn't working, the market's getting. Giving me information. What information is it giving me? It may be that there aren't any jobs. It may be that actually what I'm best at isn't a fit for what opportunities I'm looking at. So be willing to say, okay, some of this is outside of my control, but what's within my control and what is the market telling me? And maybe I need to pivot and get more feedback on what my strengths actually are. And maybe I need to disrupt myself and not take a job at the level that I once was, step back, take one, you know, a notch below to get in, to get my confidence up, to make money, so then I can move on from there. And at the same time recognize, okay, this really stinks, and this has been really hard. What am I going to learn from this so that I can be more effective in the future?

Alison Beard (14:04)

I also know people who, during their time off, particularly if they've gotten any sort of severance, will use that time to take classes, build new skills so that their resume looks stronger. And that sort of leads into. My next question is how should people talk about resume gaps when that period of unemployment has lasted longer than you would like?

Whitney Johnson (14:27)

The best possible thing you can do is to name it. So this has been longer than I expected. But let me talk you through, number one, all the things that I've learned during this time period, whether it's skills, sometimes, for example, if you. This may not be a layoff, but if you, for example, were at home to care for an aging parent or caring for children, there are lots of things you learned in the process of wrangling children or trying to navigate the healthcare system. So there are gonna be some things that you learned in that process. I think also, if you can talk about how being in this period of not having a job has transformed your thinking. What have you learned? What meaning have you made of this? So that you're able to help people see that you're thinking strategically, thoughtfully, and then coming back to the value creation. Okay, here I was, here's what I learned. And here, because of all these things I learned during this period, I can create value for you today that I probably couldn't have created for you six months ago because of this experience that I had. So you're not running away from it, you're not hiding from it, you're not shamed by it. But again, this goes to the head game that you're doing. You're saying, I had this experience, here's what I learned, and here's the value that can be created because of it.

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Alison Beard (17:17)

So we know that particularly in this volatile climate, this is happening to people at all different stages of their careers. Do you advise people differently based on, you know, where they are in life?

Whitney Johnson (17:30)

You know, Yes, I do, absolutely. But it's not so much where they are in life in terms of age, it's more of their situation. So, for example, if you have someone who basically is saying to you, okay, I just lost my job and I have three months and then I don't have any money, then my advice is you need to go find a job now. And you probably need to do a job that's even one rung lower than where you are. Because if you run out of money, you will start to freak out and you can't freak out because if you start freaking out, you can't think strategically anymore. So your number one priority is just to say, okay, I've got three months of severance, I need to find a job asap, figure out what that is. So that's a big constraint and you solve for that constraint. If you are in a position where maybe you're very young, just basically out of school, you're living at home right now, doing a remote job, and you've got a little bit more time, then I say, okay, use this time to really think about what do I want to do next and how am I going to position myself, et cetera. I would say also if you've got someone who's more toward the end of their career and thinking about what do I actually want to do, I'd say take some more time, think about how you're really going to align to your values. Go to a place, place of an encore career. The big constraint here usually is financial and you've got to operate within that constraint. But the, the first principle here would be what do I need to do so that I can stay in a place where I can think rationally and logically? And then whatever it is you need to do to make that happen, then that's probably how much time you have.

Alison Beard (19:18)

So I know we're talking about unexpected disruptions, but are there preemptive steps that, that any of us, maybe especially people in riskier industries or ventures, should take to be ready in case the worst does happen?

Whitney Johnson (19:34)

I would say a number of preemptive things you can do is obviously be continuously collecting skills and relationships. I remember having a conversation with Sandy Stelling a few years ago. She was at Alaska Airlines for several decades and she was continually building expertise across the organization. So you know it. And then airport services and maintenance, oftentimes they didn't make any sense of what she was doing, but it made her invaluable across the organization so that when industry disruptions came, which come all the time in airlines, she was a go to player within that organization and could have probably gone to lots of other places. I think that from a mindset perspective, you really, if you're willing to do the hard work of changing your assumptions about yourself, so be aware of those limiting beliefs. When disruption comes, you'll not only be okay, but say, okay, how is this going to be an opportunity for me? Absolutely. Create the financial Runway. So save money, build wealth, spend less than you earn so that you are in a position when that happens to say, all right, this isn't good, but we will be able to manage this. And then I would say, build out your network of people that you can really rely on so that when you need. Again, back to. It's a lot easier to get a job if you already have a job. It's a lot easier to ask people for help if you've already been in relation with them. So when you're going to ask for that help.

Alison Beard (20:56)

Yeah, you've mentioned pivots a couple times, and I know that you're a fan of disrupting yourself. So could these unexpected, unwanted disruptions be a good time to make that happen? You know, switch careers? Try a passion you've always wanted to pursue? Or is that adding too much additional risk to an already fraught situation?

Whitney Johnson (21:17)

Mm, I think it depends. Certainly when this happens, you have this opportunity to reflect on what you want to actually do, and so you can. You can reset and the opportunity cost is lower. So if you think about, from a disruption standpoint, you know, on the Y axis of success, if you were at a 12 and you had to go down to a 10 of your own volition, you might not do it, but now that you're already here, then you're more likely to do it. So I think it's absolutely easier. Again, there's these constraints that you have. But here's what I would say in my experience, Allison, and this is maybe a research study that HBR should do someday, is that when people have lost their jobs frequently, if not almost always, they felt like it was no longer the right job for them. They felt it like somewhere deep in their soul, they felt like, this isn't the job for me anymore. And they were hesitant to move for a variety of circumstances. And so the universe sort of gave them that nudge. And so once you've gotten that nudge, once you're already here, once you know you need to do something different if you possibly can, this is the perfect time for you to say, what do I really want to do with my life?

Alison Beard (22:35)

Yeah. Reframing it as an opportunity. We used to have a feature called Crucible that sort of was people undergoing very difficult things and sort of how they came out the other side. And nearly everyone says, oh, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I was able to make this change that I never would have made otherwise. Now, of course, when you're in the moment, it doesn't feel like an opportunity, but you can see how long term it might end up for the better. Is it your sense that career Disruptions like these are becoming more common just because the contract between sort of employees, an employer has changed.

Whitney Johnson (23:14)

That's definitely a factor. I think it's also a factor that disruption is accelerating. So I do think it's more common at the same time that it's more common. I think that's where the opportunity is. So, yes, skills are going to become more obsolete. The contract between worker and employer has changed. But if you can learn really quickly and AI can help you learn really quickly, and if you can learn to work with people, because I think with. With the pace of change accelerating, emotional dysregulation is going to get exacerbated. So if you can work with yourself, as I keep talking about, and you can work with other people, you're actually going to become more valuable. So it's an interesting paradox because, yes, I think career disruptions are going to happen more, but if you're willing to learn fast and learn about yourself and work with other people, you will become even more valuable than you were before you were disrupted.

Alison Beard (24:16)

It's tough because I'm someone in particular who's sort of a creature of habit. I liked that. I've only worked basically at two places my entire career. And so I'm someone who sort of doesn't feel ready for that kind of world where there's sort of an expectation that you're constantly going to move jobs because your business is being disrupted or your industry. Industry is changing or federal policy is changing. How does someone who is less adaptable move into this new future?

Whitney Johnson (24:47)

What I have found is that it is important. I mean, part of it goes to you decide if you think it's important to be adaptable. I mean, you may decide it's not that important, and some people will, and that's okay. But if you decide that it's important to be adaptable, but you say to yourself, I really like my job, I don't want to change jobs, but I do need to develop this muscle a little bit more. What I have found is that it's really a good practice to put yourself in a position of trying to do new things. So sometimes people will ask me, so what are your hobbies? And I think my hobby is trying new things because I want to develop that muscle of being able to be adaptable. So like last Christmas or a year ago, I took surfing lessons. And I will tell you, I was absolutely thrilled when I saw myself get up on a surfboard. It wasn't very good. It didn't matter because I was doing something new and building that muscle. So I. I would say for someone who says, you know what, I really like my job, I don't want to change jobs, and I feel like I'm adapting enough within the. Within the strictures of the job itself. But I know this muscle is important. Then find other ways and other parts of your life to flex that muscle so that if it does come, you are. Are prepared. And I would also argue, Allison, that everybody has disruption in their life. Maybe it's not on the profess, but it's probably on the personal front. So how are you exercising that muscle regardless of where you are, so that you do have that ability when you need it?

Alison Beard (26:14)

And as I said, you are a big fan of people disrupting themselves so that they can learn and grow in different roles and industries and certainly get ready for this fast changing business world that is in front of us. But when things do feel uncertain and unstable, should we still be doing that, or should we wait while things are calm and then wait for the disruption to happen and disrupt ourselves? Then?

Whitney Johnson (26:41)

You know, sometimes people will ask me the question, like, can there be too much disruption? And I think the answer is absolutely yes, there can. I continually think about, you know, the sweet spot of, like, something needs to be hard but not too hard and easy but not too easy. And you've heard me talk about S Curves and having a portfolio of S Curves Curves. And what I find is that you want to balance that portfolio with most of your life in this sweet spot where it's hard but not too hard, easy but not too easy. You want to have some places where you feel pretty anchored. Like, I feel comfortable. I know what I'm doing. I'm an expert at this. I've lived in the same house for a long time, whatever it is, but at any given time, you want to have something that is kind of pushing you a little bit. It's a little bit hard, It's a little bit out of your comfort zone.

Alison Beard (27:28)

So.

Whitney Johnson (27:29)

So the answer to that question, Allison, would be is if you've got too much disruption, there's too much change happening in your life. You do want to look for an opportunity, a way for something that will anchor you so that you're in balance from a seesaw perspective.

Alison Beard (27:48)

It also strikes me that people in sort of disruptive situations at work, I'm thinking like a merger that might end up in a redundancy that leaves you laid off, or a reorg that might push you towards a demotion. Those are also opportunities for people to say, okay, if I'M on the chopping block. What could I do? What could I put my hand up for to add value to this rapidly changing organization?

Whitney Johnson (28:19)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Alison Beard (28:20)

It's like you head off the disruption or the shock.

Whitney Johnson (28:23)

Right. You see it coming and you say, all right, so this is about to go away. I want to stay at this organization. So how could I take my skills, my abilities, reconfigure them and take that initiative? What problem needs to be solved in the organization? I think I find it fascinating, Allison, because we know to do that, like go solve a problem, and yet so often we get to this place of learned helplessness, and so why are we not solving the problem? But yes, absolutely, you can head that off. Off. This is going away. This over here needs to happen. I've got these skills. I can solve this for you. Now, sometimes organization won't let you, but that mindset will serve you well, whether it's at your current organization or a new organization.

Alison Beard (29:07)

It gets you energized and puts you in a more optimistic mood where you're thinking about what you can do instead of what you can't do.

Whitney Johnson (29:14)

Absolutely. And whatever you focus on, you get more of.

Alison Beard (29:18)

Well, Whitney, thank you so much for talking to us about this topic. I know that there are a lot of people potentially struggling right now, and so hopefully this will give them some advice and hope going forward.

Whitney Johnson (29:29)

Thank you.

Alison Beard (29:33)

That's Whitney Johnson, CEO of Disruption Advisors. Next week, Adi sits down with media legend Barry Diller to talk about his management philosophy, taking risks, and how he decides a deal is worthwhile. And we now have more than a thousand IdeaCast episodes, plus many more HBR podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization and your career. Find them at hbr.org podcasts or search HBR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Thanks to our team, senior producer Mary Du, associate producer Hannah Bates, product manager Ian Fox, and senior production specialist Rob Eckhart. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Alison. Be foreign.

Adi Ignatius (30:25)

What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Can someone invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 42,000 businesses have future proof their business with Netsuite by Oracle, the number one AI cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com IdeaCast. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com Ideacast netsuite.com IdeaCast.