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Healing + Human Potential
The Surprising Science Of Happiness - How To Reclaim Your Joy | Dr. Judith Joseph
00:42:28
Do you struggle with feeling like your happiness lives ‘out there’ in the future – in the next partner, the next job, the next milestone? In this episode of the Healing + Human Potential Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Judith Joseph, a...
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- [00:00]
A
Happiness is external. Joy is cultivated from within. Anhedonia literally means a lack of joy and interest in things. So this lack of joy is something that people are like, isn't that just life? That's normal. No, it's not. You look at the brain in your setting, the environment where you're getting a lot of the stressors on you, you take that brain out of that setting, most people should start to feel better, they start to relax. The stressors aren't there, the external stresses aren't there. But what I'm finding is that folks with high functioning depression, you take that brain, you take them out of the setting, they still can't relax. There's something that you're trying to outrun.
- [00:35]
B
You talk about scarcity trauma.
- [00:37]
A
People are aware of something called scarcity mindset. But I wanted to include the term trauma because mindset is just cognitive, but trauma is mind body. If we're accustomed to pushing down pain, then we push down joy too.
- [00:50]
B
What are some other things? Based on the research that really supports us and in unraveling these patterns, the.
- [00:56]
A
Most difficult thing is.
- [01:01]
B
Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast. Today we're exploring why so many people feel disconnected, burnt out and numb, even when it looks good on the outside. We'll talk about the hidden signs of high functioning depression, why real joy can feel out of reach, and what it actually takes to start feeling more alive, present and whole. Joining us is Dr. Judith Joseph, a board certified psychiatrist, researcher and author of best selling book High Functioning. Her work brings clarity to the struggles that so many people are silently carrying, offering a powerful way back to yourself. I wanted to start us off just with your background with science and therapy. I wanted to talk about the difference between happiness and joy. Can you break this down for us?
- [01:42]
A
This is a question I get asked all the time. So in my research practice, in my lab in Manhattan, the way that we approach happiness and joy is totally different than my therapy practice. When my therapy patients come in, they, the number one thing they ask is, you know, I just wanna be happy. Dr. Judith, what do I do? And then I ask them, well, what does happiness mean to you? They'll say things like, when I finally get that partner, when I finally get that job, you know, it's something external that happens in order for them to feel that sense of happiness. But in the research, when we're looking at happiness, we're literally adding up points of joy. So we're adding up things like when you ate, did you savor it? Was it yummy? When you Took a rest? Did you wake up feeling refreshed and rest when you were lonely and you reached out to a loved one, did you feel connected? Did you feel seen and heard? When you were stressed out, were you able to self soothe and get rid of some of that tension? So all of these little points are added up in the science to determine if someone's becoming happier. But in the real world, everyone's waiting for something external to happen to then experience that something in the future. Yes, and something external. So the way I think about it is that happiness is external, joy is internal. Joy is cultivated from within. And that's important because things on the outside could be falling apart. You could be going through things, you could be stressed out about what's happening in the world. But if you have the capacity to cultivate internal joy as that experience, that human experience, that allows you to be resilient, that allows you to withstand things that others can't survive, that is what we're aiming for.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah, and that's so much better. Like we all have access to that. And I also hear it's partly being present, enjoying the moment.
- [03:30]
A
Yes.
- [03:30]
B
So in your research, what has been one of the most surprising things you found about happiness and depression?
- [03:35]
A
Well, I think a lot of people believe that they aren't depressed. And that's what they come in, they're surprised, they believe that, oh, it's burnout. You know, like I'm burnt out. And you know, I've been in LA for a couple of weeks doing events and so forth. You go to parties and then you say, oh, I'm burnt out. You'll hear people say, me too, me three. But if you ever say, hey, I've been depressed, it's like crickets in the room. There's still a lot of stigma. I do think a lot of people believe that they are burnt out instead of actually acknowledging that they're depressed. And you know, the way that I explain it again using these very laboratory type of ways, is that you look at the brain in your setting, let it be the workplace or the environment where you're getting a lot of the stressors on you, right? You take that brain out of that setting, most people should start to feel better, right? They start to relax. The stressors aren't there, the external stressors aren't there. But what I'm finding is that folks with high functioning depression, you know, you have that brain in that setting, they're having the symptoms. You take that brain, you take them out of the setting, they still can't Relax. And they're still overwhelmed, they're still having problems with sleep, they're still struggling. And when they sit still, they feel empty. When they are not working, they feel restless. Right. There's something that keeps them feeling that way, but it's coming from within, it's not the setting. Right. So a lot of us struggle with this lack of joy, this anhedonia, this inner restlessness. And we think it's burnout, but we're actually depressed. But we don't look like the classic depression. You know, we are actually out there showing up for others, doing our jobs, being the rock for those who depend on us. We don't slow down. And I want people to accurately name this, because if you're just calling it burnout, but you're really depressed, you're not getting to the root of the issue.
- [05:23]
B
Okay, great. There's so many things I want to unpack in that. So for people that are thinking that it might be burnout, I hear that it's socially acceptable to say that more than depressed. But the symptoms are that even if the environment isn't supportive of it, you're still feeling that or you're still creating more to do's for yourself.
- [05:40]
A
Yes. You're still restless, you're still unable to slow down, you still feel uncomfortable when you're not doing. So you busy yourself. Busying yourself may look like, okay, I can't put my phone down. I have to constantly be distracting myself. Busying yourself could look like, well, I gotta take on this side hustle and that side hustle. I gotta take on this project. Busying yourself could look like, well, I can't just close my work phone or close my laptop. I gotta keep checking the emails. There's something that you're trying to outrun. Yes. You're not able to just be present, as you said, you're not able to just be still. That inner restlessness keeps you moving. And what I found in the research is that this is likely tied to some past trauma, some past emotional event that hasn't been processed. And when you think about trauma in the classic sense, people tend to avoid things like situations, people, places that trigger them. But folks who are high functioning, they avoid things differently. They avoid it by jumping into work, by keeping themselves busy. That's their avoidance. They just don't know it. They don't, they haven't made that connection. Yeah.
- [06:43]
B
It's almost like they're scared to find out what they would feel and be confronted with if they slow down.
- [06:48]
A
Yes.
- [06:49]
B
And so this busyness or like the workaholism is a different way to avoid. That's a little bit more socially acceptable, right?
- [06:56]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And they're not aware that that's what they're afraid of. They haven't even processed it because they're so busy. Yeah.
- [07:02]
B
Anhedonia, you mentioned this term. Talk to us about what this is. Can you unpack it so we can understand if it's showing up in our life?
- [07:08]
A
Yeah. So anhedonia literally means a lack of joy and interest things. So this lack of joy is something that people are like, well, isn't that just life? Like, that's normal. No, it's not. You know, we were designed to experience joy because joy is important. You know, when you think back to back in our days of, you know, foraging and hunting, if we didn't have that joy, what would happen? We wouldn't want to survive. We would just kind of give up. We'd just be in our cave and waste away. But having these moments to look forward to, the ability to feel that spark when you touch a loved one's hand, you know, or when you eat something yummy, to salivate and experience like, wow, this is delicious. All of those human experiences allow us to have joy. But if you're eating your food and you're like, eh. Or you're like, I don't even remember eating it, or you're watching a show that you used to enjoy and look forward to and you're just like, oh, I have to rewind it. Or you're talking to your loved one and you. You just kind of zone out. Those are all points of joy that we're leaving on the table. Right. That's that meh. That blah. And there are many reasons why we are losing this joy, but we have to appreciate that that joy is there for a reason. And if we're not experiencing it, then we're missing out on life.
- [08:25]
B
Yeah. And it's like if we're numbing out on the negative things, it's also going to numb out on the positive things. That full spectrum. Being able to feel all of it. Right?
- [08:33]
A
Yes.
- [08:34]
B
And so for people that are caught in the cycle that have been told from society that your happiness is in the future, it's external to you in the. The job, the partner. What would you share with them can really support them in breaking that cycle.
- [08:48]
A
A lot of my busy folks really benefit from this exercise in my book called the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method. I didn't develop it. It's been around for ages. But in my Trauma work. I used it and utilized it for a lot of my trauma patients who had a really hard time being present because they were constantly in fight or flight. Then I started to apply that to my patients who had high functioning depression. Now my patients are high functioning. Would never come in and say, I'm traumatized, right? They'd be like, something's wrong. Like I have all this stuff and I'm still not happy. Why? What's wrong with me? Why am I ungrateful? I should be happy. And there's all that guilt and shame, which again, is a trauma response from unpacked trauma that they haven't even acknowledged. So I use a lot of those methods and I started using that with these clients of mine and it allowed them to be more present. So the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, you know, I would. I usually practice it with a beverage. So I'm gonna use this water. It's not ideal, but. Cause it's not flavorful. But you know, with tea, they'll sit in my office and they'll hold that glass or that mug and I want them to list five things that they can see. So I'm gonna practice that now. I see the glistening of the water. I see the shininess on the glass. I see the reflection of my fingers. I see the reflection of the dress. I see, you know, the carpet in the background. I'm being really present and mindful about five things that I can see. Four things you can feel. So I'm feeling the hard glass, I feel the cool water. I feel the soft cushion under, you know, my thigh. I feel the soft rug under my feet. And then three things that you can hear. So you can do a little bit of ASMR with the fingertips. You can hear the movement of the water. And if you're drinking it, you can hear it. The gulping going down your throat, the two things you can smell. Usually this is with a beverage that's savory. So, you know, usually I have chamomile tea or lavender tea. And then I wear this fragrance. And then one thing you could taste, you taste it, you describe what it tastes like. So it sounds, you know, really primitive. But if you're very present in this one act. Yeah, you're engaging all of your senses. That's why it's called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Those are all the senses. You're not thinking about the past, you're not thinking about the future. You're allowing yourself to be present in this one act. And you're squeezing all the points of joy out of this one act. And that teaches you that you have the capacity to slow down. That teaches you you have the capacity to be present. And if you do this with food, you know, we call it mindful eating, or you do this when you're with your loved ones or with your pet, you're really engaging your senses in that moment and teaching yourself that you have capacity to reclaim your joy.
- [11:36]
B
What I love about that is that, yes, it's bringing us into a mindful state in the present moment, but it's also through joy, through pleasure, which creates that safety. Then it makes it easier to feel some of the quote, unquote, hard feelings from that place of resource. So you're not going straight into the hard feelings, but you're also feeling the delight and slowing it down to notice the flower and the scent and really being here. I think that that is a great practice. Would you recommend people doing it first thing in the morning or like, at least one me or at one point in the day to break it down?
- [12:08]
A
I try to ask people to do it at the same time every day. You know, I like routines because routine allows your brain to feel okay even if there's chaos. There's certain things that I know are certain, right? Like there's so much uncertainty in the world, There can be so much chaos in a day. But if you stick to routine, that's one thing that your brain knows is for sure, you know, and it's grounding. So for me personally, I practice the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, after I drop my daughter off to school, and I'll do it with my Caribbean coffee. Everybody knows I love this Caribbean coffee that is like rum flavored. It has no alcohol in it, but it has this, the notes of that, like, Caribbean rum in it. And I practice the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, after I drop her to school, before I go to work every single day. And it's my sacred time. And what I've found is that over time, that's when I have my best ideas, you know? But for others, it could be in between your lunch breaks. It could be in between a certain meeting of the day. It could be in the car ride, going home. So pick a time that works for you because it's showing you that no matter what's happening, you have the ability to access joy.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah. And there's something about the predictability of that. I think that probably settles people's nervous system and that it's their sacred time with themselves before all of life, maybe trying to pull their attention that's really beautiful and I think the morning's a great time so that you kind of start and anchor your day in that. Before we dive back in today's conversation, I want to share something that can completely change your life. If you're craving more than just inspiration and you want to actually live this work, then I have something special for you. I'm hosting a brand new five day challenge called Self Doubt to sold out and inside. I'm giving you powerful embodiment tools, some straight from my paid accredited certification program to help you you discover life changing tools that you can apply on yourself right away. How to embody unshakable confidence and have a wait list of dream clients, as well as how to heal your relationship with money so that you can attract the abundance that you truly desire. So imagine feeling on purpose, doing what you love, making a real impact in the world and being financially rewarded for it. This is what this is about. Since real transformation happens through embodiment work, I'll be doing live demos, group exercises, so you don't just hear it conceptually naturally, but you actually embody breakthroughs every single day. And so whether you're ready to expand your toolkit, you want to have greater impact or just experience a greater level of freedom. This challenge is for you. And I'll be giving away daily prizes each day. But all you have to do is click the link in the show notes or go to alyssanabriga.com forward/challenge to save your spot while it's still available and free. I know you talk about pathologically productive. Can you talk to us about what this means?
- [14:44]
A
Yeah. So many times people look like they have it all figured out on the outside. That was me in 2020. All of my friends were like, oh my gosh, you have it all. Like, you got the lab, you got the husband, you got the cute kid. And things fell apart for many people in 2020, including myself. And I found myself going, you know, like, not slowing down, showing up because I was the rock. But I was struggling on the inside. No one knew I was getting booked on tv, asked to be on boards, doing all these wonderful things, getting all these studies and accolades. But I was suffering in silence. And I thought, well, I remember I was on this talk and it was hundreds of healthcare workers at this prestigious hospital, and I was supposed to be guiding them through this crisis. And then like halfway through the talk, I was like, I'm in crisis. I think I'm depressed. And it kind of hit me like, well, if I'm experiencing This, and I'm a expert in this field, and I'm a therapist. How many other people are experiencing this?
- [15:42]
B
Yeah.
- [15:43]
A
So I started talking about it, I started researching it, and I decided to study high functioning depression. And I wrote this protocol and I submitted it to the local, to my irb, my review board, and enrolled patients in it. And I thought, you know, no one's gonna relate to this. You know, people are more concerned with, like, the depression where people shut down. But when I started creating content around it and talking about this study, the feedback was like, overwhelming. You know, millions of people from around the world were saying, this is me. I struggle with anhedonia. I just didn't even know what it was. You know, I'm the rock, but I can't slow down. You know, I don't know why I can't slow down, but everyone thinks I'm doing well. And that's how pathologically productive came up. Because in our research, throughout the medical literature, you don't get attention unless you break down. This is something that is in mental health across the board, across the world, right? You'll have all these symptoms, let's say of depression. And at the bottom of the checklist, if you haven't broken down or if you're not in crisis, you don't get attention. You're told, well, come back next year or come back when you do break down, then we can do something. We can check a box. And I thought, there's something wrong with that because you have all these people, they know something's off, but there's no criteria for them. There's no support for them because they're functioning, but they don't know that they're pathologically productive. And if you look at other fields of health care, there's this huge renaissance in physical health, right? No one is saying, well, let's wait till you have the heart attack and then we'll do something. We're saying, like, let's prevent the heart attack. Yeah. No one's saying, let's wait for stage four cancer. They're saying, no, it's like, reduce the cancer risk, so there's no stage cancer. Right? But in mental health, we're still saying, well, come back when you break down. And I just feel like that is so backwards.
- [17:27]
B
Yeah.
- [17:27]
A
And we see what's happening in the world. We're seeing these crises in mental health. If we wait for, for people to break down, we're too late. There's just not enough of us, not enough of us therapists, not enough of us mental health experts to address this crisis, let's prevent the crisis.
- [17:41]
B
I love that. I mean, that's a big part of why I started this podcast was when I was becoming a therapist, I thought, why did I learn this in grad school and not grade school? I wanted people to have tools to heal. So I love that you're doing it more preventatively. And I think a lot of my audience are high functioning. And I can see some parallels with being over responsible as a kid of thinking like they needed to take care of their family or whoever the was that they thought was needed. Maybe grew up too fast. Are there other things that you can highlight for people to be like, oh yeah, that's me, I'm high functioning.
- [18:13]
A
That's why I created the trauma inventory. Because a lot of our experiences are not labeled as being painful or emotional, they're just life. Because in research we tend to look at the more, the more serious traumas, like, okay, were you assaulted? Were you in combat? Were you in a life threatening situation? But there are things like, were you neglected? You know, well, that doesn't meet criteria for trauma. But I can't, I can't tell you about one patient that I've ever treated who was neglected, who where I didn't think that that was significant, and how they saw themselves and how they interact with others, how they maneuvered through the world. Right. That neglect is a trauma, but it's not classified because it's not life threatening. And so in the inventory in my research and in the book, I include a host of things like, you know, were you ever rejected or treated poorly or didn't have access to resources because of how you looked, who you loved, how you identified things like, you know, did you not have food when you were growing up? Right. Again, it's not necessarily a crisis that's life threatening immediately. So it doesn't check that box in the dsm. But many folks didn't, you know, they came from scarcity trauma and they can't slow down because, well, there's this inner fear that if they slow down, they'll run out of resources. You know, and so there are all these traumas in there, adulthood traumas like, you know, financial bankruptcies that would never be in the dsm. But if you've been through a financial bankruptcy or a terrible divorce, you know, all those things shape the way that you interact in the world, the way that you view yourself and the decisions that you make. So I included all of those type of traumas so that people understood that you know, this is why I'm this way. So they feel validated so that they can actually process it.
- [19:51]
B
Yeah, and I think it's great that you're highlighting that, because like you said in the beginning that some people are depressed, they don't even realize it. And so normalizing some of this, if there was, you didn't have something for too long, that neglect like that is still classified as trauma. And to know that there's therapy, there are people and supports for you to actually move through that, I would also love to hear from you. You talk about scarcity, trauma, what is this? Unpack it for us, and how it shows up as an example so people can become more aware.
- [20:19]
A
Yeah, people are aware of something called scarcity mindset. But I wanted to include the term trauma, because mindset is just cognitive, but trauma is mind, body. Right. You get the fight or flight, the physiological restlessness. And a lot of people, you know, like myself included, have not put together that, oh, coming from positions of scarcity changes the way that you behave, you know, so let's say you're someone who grew up with very little, or your parents did, and they never processed it. A lot of times I have folks in my office where they're like, well, I don't know why. I just. I work myself to the bone. I have money in the bank. I can't slow down. And then we unpack. Well, they didn't have scarcity personally, but we look at their. The generations before them, and maybe it was a grandparent who fled, you know, a war or, you know, generations where they were, let's say, farmers. And, you know, you couldn't slow down because if something happened to your crop, the people wouldn't eat. You know, so you don't. You're not aware as to how these unprocessed, painful experiences impact the way that you behave. So that's why you're staying at work every day. That's why you don't take risks on the job, because you never want to be, you know, in a position where you don't have. This is why you hoard degrees. You know, you're not satisfied with the master's. You're getting a second master's, you're getting a PhD. You're constantly on the go. You can't just enjoy what you've worked hard for because you're afraid of running out.
- [21:45]
B
And I'm thinking of myself. I have two master's degrees, a zillion certifications, and it genuinely came from love. So also, I can't can it. It's where it comes from. Is it from moving away from something, or is it like your love of learning? So. Because I know that even it's less the action, it's more of like, what's the operating system that's driving it? And yes, absolutely, there's a lot of people that are hiding behind more, bigger, better, faster, and that's what we're sold in society. But I also hear epigenetics as a part of this, right? Like it can. They can be part of our biology. It's. It's physiologically passed down some of the trauma up to seven generations. I mean, four, seven generations.
- [22:23]
A
And also the behav. You know, not just the genetic modifications that happen in terms of the way that your DNA is expressed, but just the behaviors that get passed down from a, you know, psychological perspective that you're not even aware of. And listen, if you're productive and you're enjoying it and you're not experiencing anhedonia, that's not what we're talking about here. I have tons of clients who, you know, like, they enjoy what they're doing, but it's when that anhedonia kicks in and you're just like, well, I'm busy, I'm productive, but I'm not enjoying this. I'm not like, why am I doing it? I'm. That's the pathological productivity, and that's what we're talking about here.
- [22:58]
B
It's good to distinguish the difference. So to break out of some of these things, can you just share more? I know we have the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. What are some other things based on the research that really supports us in unraveling these patterns?
- [23:12]
A
Well, the most difficult thing is the acknowledgement. Like you said, if we're accustomed to pushing down pain, then we push down joy too. You know, if our, if numbing is our go to mechanism, then eventually you stop feeling anything. And so validation in my 5vs process is the first step. So I liken validation to imagine you're in a dark room, you can't see anything, and you hear a loud crash, well, some of us would start swinging, some of us would start screaming, you know, panicking. But if you turn the light on and you saw, oh, well, that was just a vase that fell, I'm safe again, that uncertainty goes down. We don't like uncertainty as humans. So validation is like turning the light on and saying, oh, this is what that feeling is. You know, I'm not angry. I'm actually anxious, you know, so naming and acknowledging your feelings and your experiences without judgment is the first step. And it's the hardest step. Because if you're used to pushing it down, validation is challenging. Venting also important. It's a second V in my methodology. So when people come into my lab, each person will take a turn with this red balloon and will try to dunk it into this. This huge tank of water. And 100% of the time, that balloon will pop up. Right? Why? Because you can't outmat the physics, you know? But then everyone will take a turn trying to deflate that balloon, and then they push it into the water, the tank of water, and it goes all the way down. I use this imagery because, you know, imagine if you're so tight and all that pressure is in you. If you're not venting, if you're not practicing that, eventually you know that that pressure will pop up in your relationships. It pops up at work. It pops up in ways you can't control. So it's important to find a way to vent that is authentic to you, and it's important to vent in the right way. There are wrong ways of venting. It's trauma dumping, right? You don't want to just be like, hey, this happened, and to everyone who will listen. Why? Because you really shouldn't be doing that. That puts yourself in a vulnerable place. And also it's not kind to others.
- [25:12]
B
And you can wallow in it too.
- [25:14]
A
Yes, it makes it worse. Exactly. The newer research is showing that when you've been vent in ways that looks like trauma dumping, they liken it to pouring gas on a flame. You actually feel worse. So you want to be strategic and mindful and intentional when you vent. So you pick one or two people where there's reciprocity. So, like, you know, you've come up with this relationship where, okay, I vent to you, you vent to me. And when we vent, we're not just like, trauma dumping on each other. We're actually doing this with the intention of coming up with a resolution. You know, whatever that resolution is, there's intention. And you're doing it with, like, empathy. Because you're saying, you know, I'm gonna ask for emotional consent. I'm gonna say, is this a good time?
- [25:54]
B
You know, really important.
- [25:56]
A
Really important. The worst thing is that you feel away and you go to a person to talk, and they're like, I can't handle that right now. You feel rejected. So you wanna ask, you know, for emotional consent. You wanna think about who you're venting to. You Know, people who you vent to shouldn't be people who are in a lesser position of power. They shouldn't be your kids because your kids will worry about you. They shouldn't be your employees because your employees will resent you. Right? Then they'll go home and trauma dump to their family. So be very intentional about it. And venting doesn't just have to be verbal. You know, if you vent to a therapist like you and I like, that's fine, you're paying us, but, you know, you really want to be mindful of who you talk to, who's not your therapist. And also you can vent in ways that are, you know, individualized, and you're doing that with yourself. So you vent onto paper. Like journaling is very helpful. Prayer for my faith based clients. Very helpful. Crying, you know, is a very good, effective way of getting some of that emotion out. So there are ways that you can do it that are authentic to you.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah, and I like the crying. The somatic way of just allowing the emotion without the story. It can really just move through.
- [26:58]
A
Right.
- [26:59]
B
Neuroscientists have found it takes 90 seconds to let it move through. My husband and I have something called consciously complain. So we'll ask, can you hold? Which is our signal, our term. And then if he says or we, I say yes. The other person is essentially saying, are you resourced enough not to take it personally whatever I say? And if I say yes, then he'll go and just share unconsciously and just to let it come up. Sometimes he'll ham it up just so it moves through. And then we're laughing because we know it's not personal to us. It just was energy that wanted to be allowed. That balloon just wanted to be deflated.
- [27:30]
A
I like that. Consciously contain complain.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah, yeah. So you were talking about the V's. You said to validate and to vent. Was there more?
- [27:40]
A
Yes. So there's values. And values are things that, the way that I explain it is think about things that are not with price tags. Think about priceless things. So I say price tags because a lot of the things that we tend to value or put up on a pedestal are not things that in our last five minutes on earth, we're going to be like, oh, I wish I had five more minutes with like a Birkin. You know, like, no one's going to say that. Literally no one. But people will say, I wish I had five more minutes with my family or five more minutes in this beautiful place that I, you know, that took my breath away. Things like that, you know, these are the pricelessness things, you know, so like, tap into those as much as you can. You know, you're not gonna be able to do everything you value in a day. But if faith is something you value, you try and pray. If family is something you value, spend meaningful time with your family members, even if it's just like chatting for five minutes, you know, consciously complaining. Right. And so, you know, I put a list of higher level and lower level values in my book because oftentimes we chase things that are not truly giving us meaning and purpose.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah, it's almost like we get confused by what society sold us. And then this is about really reclaiming what your truth is outside of the conditioning. So over the last few years, we've just faced a lot of collective trauma, just globally. And I'm curious what the research shares about collective trauma and how do we heal it?
- [29:01]
A
So there's something called vicarious trauma, even if we are not there Literally, in that dsm, that bible psychiatry, it says that if you are repeatedly exposed to these images or you know, stories of people going through suffering, you can have a trauma response as if you're the person who was experiencing it. And that's why it's so important to like protect your brain. We're constantly on these devices and the way that it's set up, it's so habit forming that you, we become literally addicted. And you can get addicted to these images. You can get addicted to bad news, unfortunately. So that's why we need this information and we need to talk about it so that at least we're making decisions that are informed. So if you know that, okay, my brain can become addicted to bad news and to trauma, then let me be mindful about setting an alarm on my phone so I'm not on my device all the time. Like using these app features so that it shuts down after a while because you can experience that inner fight or flight as if you were the person there in these images. And that's scary. And so, so that's why with my clients, I use something called the Reset method. R, E, S E, T, the R is realize how this exposure is impacting you. So read up on the studies where we're learning that you can have this physiological trauma response or you're becoming more anxious and depressed. Realize that, educate yourself about it. The tools that you can use, that's the E and reset, the S's have a strategy. So maybe it's like, you know, you're only going to be on these apps or Reading the news a certain time of the day, it's not going to be at nighttime. So you get that restorative rest, the last E. And reset is, you know, what are your expectations? Are you hoping to feel better about yourself, feel less stress, get more sleep, be more productive? And then the T is the thoughtfulness. You know, was the rule that you put in place too rigid? Was it too relaxed? You know, maybe it's time to reflect on whether or not you need to make some changes in your, in your methodology. But reset, it's helpful for kids and adults. And I've, I've actually started to work with major platforms to use the terms to help creators to, like, minimize the amount of time they're spending on these apps. Because it's not great for your brain if you're exposed to all of these images.
- [31:15]
B
Yeah, it's not like we weren't wired as a species to see bad news from all around the world all of the time. And so then it's also gonna. The algorithm is going to give us what we're looking at. And so I love that you're creating some kind of boundaries and a, a way to help take our power back from just unconsciously getting addicted to some of the screen time and apps. And I know that you've done research around screen time and apps. Can you share with us how it actually affects our joy and what the research is saying?
- [31:42]
A
Well, yeah, the research is showing us that when you spend the time on these apps, you're actually not spending time in the real world. So what's happening is that, you know, those points of joy that where we're adding up what makes you happier? Well, what we found, and this was a study that was done at one of the University of Texas schools earlier this year, was that when they took adults 18 and over away from the smartphone capacity, what they found was that they were actually experiencing joy and happiness as if you gave them an antidepressant. And they want us to know why. Why is it that for two weeks, if you just have a basic flip phone so you can call, you can text, but you're not on your phone constantly, you know, online. Why is it that it looks like you got treated with an antidepressant? Well, because people were actually getting more sleep. Right. A point of joy. They were out in nature more. Another point of joy. They were spending time talking to each other, socializing. A point of joy. You know, they were eating their food and tasting it. Right. So they were getting all these basic points of joy back and so it looked as if they were being treated with an antidepressant. That's why it's important to be aware, you know, in that reset method, the e. The educating yourself that this can happen. If you know this can happen, you'll be more intentional around your behaviors with regards to devices.
- [32:59]
B
Yeah, no, that's so important. And also, just. Also the other things that happen with comparison and thinking, I should have something else. And then it removes the things that you're already have in your life and feeling grateful for those, you know, things that you have.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, we weren't meant to look at ourselves that much. And, you know, when you're on these apps, when you're on zooms, when you're constantly with the device, you're looking at your image all the time. We were designed to look at each other, you know, to be like, oh, does she like me? Is she safe? You know, you know, what's. What the body language is, you know, because we look at each other's hands. Because back then we had to see if you were holding a weapon or something, you know, but nowadays we're spending so much time just looking at ourselves. I know when I'm in my therapy sessions, I'm like, I have to turn off my feature because if I'm looking at myself, I'm not paying attention to the patient, and vice versa, you know, and there's a term in psychiatry called the otoscopic theory where, like, you know, when people who are psychotic or have psychosis, like schizophrenia, they will sometimes see images of themselves across the room, and it causes a lot of stress for them. Right. And we have to be like, oh, that's hallucination. Well, what if people who don't have psychotic conditions are seeing themselves all the time? Guess what? It's causing stress for us too. Right? We're seeing our faces all the time. We're like, oh, why did I do my hair like that? We're like, why did I put my makeup on? Or I look tired? We're so focused on ourselves, we're not looking at other people. We're not getting that point of joy, of interacting. And we're also losing joy because we're scrutinizing ourselves.
- [34:28]
B
Criticism. Yeah. And to wake up from that voice and to really work with it is really important. Like, seeing that even the critic is. Has a bad rap trap. It's just trying to protect you so that you're safe and connected and survive. And yet we can be compassionate with it and take dominion over it. But we're going to be, I mean, AI taking over. I mean there's so much. With the digital age, we are like about to hit a whole nother level of integration with technology. What would you recommend people be mindful of as we go into this new era?
- [34:58]
A
Yeah, well, you know, that goes into the fourth V. Vitals. And in my book, when I talk about vitals, you know, I talk about the typical things like sleep and eating foods that are low processed and so forth that are actually anti inflammatory and you know, getting good movement. But I also talk about, you know, protecting your brain from technology as a vital sign because again, this is where our mental health research is changing so rapidly. Thirty years ago, this wasn't in the, even in the textbooks, you know, but we're still using a lot of the, like the terms from 30 years ago. But that's why you, you really want to think about how do I protect my body and brain based on the science. You know, even looking at sleep, people aren't getting the deep sleep because they're on their devices.
- [35:45]
B
I track this. I used to have a HRV monitor at whoop and I my deep sleep. The recovery wasn't as good if I was on my phone or doing work before I would go to bed. So I had to have a boundary with myself. And it was good to see the science. If I stopped two hours or two or three hours before bed, I would get way deeper sleep. So it's great that people that can become more educated so that they can make conscious choices.
- [36:10]
A
Because when you're looking at that light, what's happening is that during the day your body's changing the way that it's the melatonin, the natural melatonin is building up. So if your natural melatonin builds up during a day and then you're looking at light on your screen, then what you're telling your brain is that, oh, it's actually morning. Get rid of that melatonin. So if people knew what was happening in their brains when they were looking at this unnatural light, they wouldn't they put it away.
- [36:35]
B
Yeah. And you can even have the orange light. You can do glasses. Yeah, all of the things in, in your research lab, you have a motto that your research. What is it you're understanding? Your happiness.
- [36:47]
A
Understand the science of your happiness.
- [36:49]
B
Understand the science of your happiness. Talk to us about what you mean by this.
- [36:52]
A
Well, so there's only one you, and there's only ever gonna be one you and the future of the universe. And in the history of it, I mean that to Me is mind boggling, Right? So you're here for a reason. But I think that many times we look at other people's happiness and we think, well, why don't I have that? Or I need to do that, or, she did this and it works for her. But I did the same thing. It didn't work for me. Well, do you understand the science of your happiness? You know, and what that means is, how can you be happy if you don't even understand where you're losing your joy? And I put in my book this model, the biopsychosocial model. Most medical students have heard of it, but most people in the real world have never heard of it. And I thought, well, why don't we just teach people how to understand the science of their happiness based on the biopsychosocial model? It sounds like a mouthful, but if you want to think about the biopsychosocial, it's almost like a fingerprint. You know, we all have a fingerprint, and every single fingerprint is unique. Right? We all have a biopsychosocial, but every biopsychosocial is unique based on you. So biologically, where are you losing your joy? Do you have an autoimmune condition? Do you have a neurological condition? Do you have a physical health condition where you're losing your joy? You know, biologically, that may be where you need to focus your efforts. Maybe that's where you're losing your joy. Psychologically, what's happened in your past? Do you have unprocessed, you know, trauma from a terrible relationship? Do you have attachment issues that may be blocking the way that you interact with others, or poor resiliency? What is that? You know, socially, what's happening in your life day to day? Are you losing joy because you're in a toxic workplace, or you're not getting enough movement, or you're not getting access to healthy foods or to nature? You know, what are the things in your social setting? So when you understand where you're losing points of joy, then you know how to strategically support those areas so that you can reclaim your joy.
- [38:43]
B
It's like you're being a scientist in your own life. You're discovering and taking inventory of what brings me joy, what robs me of it.
- [38:49]
A
Yeah. Instead of trying what works for others, but you don't even understand your own science.
- [38:54]
B
I know people are going to want to stay connected, so I also want to hear how people can stay connected to you and your work. What do you want to leave people with? What do you really Want them as like a take home to really get well.
- [39:05]
A
You know, that takes me to the fifth V vision. Sometimes we get so overwhelmed, we just leave our joy on the table. So with vision, I want people to prioritize joy and to planet. And a lot of times I get a lot of, like, you know, negative feedback for this. And it's like, well, joy should be spontaneous. And I'm like, I don't know about you, but in this world, if you don't plan your joy, it just will not happen. And it's not to say that it can't be spontaneous. Yes. But two things can be true. What I mean by planning your joy is in the way that I plan that moment every day where I sit in my living room after dropping my daughter to school and I savor that delicious coffee. You know, I'm planning my joy. You know, I'm celebrating that win, that I got my kid to school on time and that I was able to take care of myself in five to 10 minutes, you know, just to relax and stay grounded. That's planning joy. It's celebrating your wins.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah.
- [39:58]
A
And so vision is important. It's my favorite V because it keeps you moving forward instead of getting stuck in the path. Yeah.
- [40:04]
B
And I think a lot of people don't give themselves permission to feel joy. They feel guilty about it. And this is just a permission slip. You look at animals, like I look at my dog and he's just happy, you know, or kids, like, it's part of our nature. And so just a full permission slip to allow ourselves to feel more joy. And that joy is a gift to the world.
- [40:22]
A
Yeah. And validate it right back to the first V. Validate like, yeah, I do feel guilty slowing down. But then when you sit in that and you reflect, you realize, well, that comes from the trauma. That told me I wasn't enough because I had to keep going. I'm not worthy without my role. And then when you validate that, you're like, oh, okay, that's where it comes from. But I'm still worthy.
- [40:42]
B
Or I feel guilty because other people don't feel guilty.
- [40:44]
A
Joy.
- [40:44]
B
But then you feeling suffering doesn't help alleviate their suffering. And so your joy can add to it and meet them. So. So I'm just. I love connecting with you. Thank you for the work that you're doing in the world. Talk to us about what you're up to, where people can stay connected.
- [40:58]
A
Thank you for having me and for allowing me to talk about joy. Joy heals communities. It's joyful people are proven to actually go out and change the world. So investing in your joy is not selfish. It will literally change the world around you. You can follow me at Dr. Judith Joseph and you can buy my book wherever books are sold. It's in over 20 countries in over 12 languages so it's everywhere high functioning and you know it helps you to reclaim your joy.
- [41:24]
B
Beautiful. We'll put all the links in the show notes. Thank you again for being here. What a gift.
- [41:29]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [41:31]
B
Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself. It truly does make a difference. And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost free way to support us is by following us. It does help us grow and we are so grateful. Leave a review on Apple or Spotify, submit a screenshot of that and upload it to AlysonNabriga.com podcast as a thank you gift, we will be sending you one of the most powerful tools that you can use on any area of your life to help you tap into your full potential so that you don't let fear hold you back from really stepping into your journey dreams. I have so much more magic I want to share with you and I cannot wait to do that soon. But for now I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.